第一季第9集：艾莉森·塔特洛克与达林卡·阿罗内斯

欢迎收听《Pluribus》，这是官方播客，我们将与这部Apple TV剧集的演员和创作团队进行深入的幕后对话。

Welcome to Pluribus, the official podcast, an intimate insider conversation about the making of the Apple TV series with the cast and creators behind the show.

我叫克里斯·麦卡贝尔。

My name is Chris McCaleb.

我是《Pluribus》的剪辑之一，也是本播客的主持人。

I'm one of the editors of Pluribus and the host of this podcast.

这是我们第九期特别节目。

And this is our ninth bonus episode.

这些节目通常是单独的一对一对话。

These are typically, usually, one on one conversations.

通常，演员和工作人员并不在我们录制播客的洛杉矶，但今天不一样。

Often, cast and crew aren't in Los Angeles where we record the podcast, but not today.

好吧，有些人并不在洛杉矶，但今天我们有两位嘉宾参加这期特别节目，我非常期待与他们交流。

Well, some people are not in Los Angeles, but we have two guests on this bonus podcast, and I'm super excited to get into it.

那么，不赘述了，请欢迎我们的嘉宾——本集的执行制片人兼联合编剧艾莉森·塔特洛克。

So without further ado, please welcome our guests, executive producer and co writer of this episode, Alison Tatlock.

你好。

Hello.

这是播客历史上首次邀请库苏马尤本人——多琳卡·阿罗内斯！

And for the first time ever on the podcast, Kusumayu herself, Dorinka Arones!

你好。

Hello.

你好。

Hello.

谢谢你们来参加节目。

Thank you guys for coming on the show.

这太棒了。

This is awesome.

谢谢你们邀请我们。

Thanks for having us.

非常感谢。

Thank you so much.

嗯，我很高兴看到你们在现实生活中似乎并没有结合在一起。

Well, I I'm just happy to see that it seems like you're unjoined in real life.

就像你们在现实生活中并没有和其他人结合一样。

Like, you haven't joined the others in real life.

这让我很兴奋，因为或者你们其实结合了？

That's exciting to me because it or or have you?

我不确定。

I don't know.

也许我们确实结合了，只是你不知道而已。

Maybe we are joined, and you don't know.

是的。

Yeah.

我也不知道。

I I don't know either.

等等，艾莉森，你也结合了吗？

Wait, Allison, you're also joined?

嗯。

Yeah.

这真是个重磅消息。

This is this is a bombshell.

我们这个播客是在播报新闻吗？

I don't are we breaking news on this podcast?

太棒了。

This is great.

这是工作要求。

It was a job requirement.

我想我们没收到通知。

I I I guess we didn't get the memo.

多琳卡，你是怎么被选中的？

Dorinka, how did you get cast on this?

我听说你以前是纽约大学的电影专业学生，对吗？

And did I hear correctly you were a film student at NYU?

是的。

Yes.

我当时在纽约大学学习电影和电视。

So I was studying film and TV at NYU.

我刚毕业。

I just graduated.

但在我的最后一年，我参加了试镜。

But I did the audition during my last year.

我当时正在拍我的短片毕业作品，同时又参加了试镜。

So I was doing my short film thesis, but at the same time, I I did the audition.

这让我非常惊讶，因为我从未遇到过如此契合我、又特别针对一位会说克丘亚语的秘鲁少女的角色要求。

That was really surprising to me because I have never really found such requirements that really fit me, but also very specific to a Peruvian young girl that speaks Quechua.

所以这引起了我的极大关注，而那时正值夏天，我正在库斯科参加一个驻地项目。

So it really got my attention and I was also at that time, it was the summer, I was doing a residency in Cusco.

所以我正在学习更多的克丘亚语。

So learning more Quechua.

所以我觉得这就是时候了。

So it really felt it was the time.

这对我来说几乎是命中注定的。

It was almost destiny for me.

我们能找到你，杜琳卡，真是太幸运、太兴奋了。

And we were so incredibly fortunate and excited to find you, Durinka.

我知道，我想你不得不从学校请假，对吧？

I know, I think you had to take time off from school, didn't you?

为了拍这部片子？

In order to do it?

是的，我当时是这么做的，这真的很有趣，因为我试着向教授们解释，但没有透露所有细节。

Yes, I was, it's really funny because I tried explaining my professors without really giving all the details.

对。

Right.

我的主要教授们都非常理解，我试着向他们说明，这件事也与我的职业发展有关。

My main professors, but they were so, like they understood and I tried to explain to them that this is related to my career as well.

所以他们同意了，当然后来我补上了所有落下的内容。

So they say yes, and of course later I catch up with everything.

太棒了。

Very cool.

另外让你知道，文斯总是特意强调你不仅是一名演员，还是一位电影导演、有抱负的导演。

And just so you know, Vince always goes out of his way to point out that you're a filmmaker, an aspiring director in addition to being an actor.

我们都清楚这一点。

We're all very aware of that.

这令人兴奋。

It's exciting.

非常感谢你。

Thank you so much.

我的意思是，我也从纽约大学毕业了。

I mean, also graduated from NYU.

我想在我上次见他时告诉他这件事，我毕业了，感觉真的很棒。

That's something that I wanted to tell him on the last time I saw him that I graduated just felt really nice.

恭喜。

Congratulations.

是的，谢谢。

Yeah, that's Thank you.

而且你至少在帮助我们找到阿娜伊斯方面也起到了一定作用，对吧？

And you were also at least partially responsible, right, for helping us find Anais?

他们是《村庄》这首歌的主唱，那首歌太棒了，我觉得它越往后听越令人难忘。

They were the singer, or the lead singer in The Village in that fantastic, I find it haunting song, the longer it goes on.

他们是你的朋友，还是你认识的圈内人？

Are they a friend of yours or are they somebody that you know in the community?

这事儿是怎么发生的？

How did that happen?

是的。

Yes.

我们认识了。

We met.

在美国，每年都会举办一次盖丘亚族的Raiimi庆典，聚集来自美国各州的安第斯侨民。

There is this Quechua kind of Raiimi celebration that happens in The US kind of one time per year that reunites the Andean diaspora from different states in The US.

所以我们去了哈佛参加这个庆典，正是在那里，我大约四年前认识了Anais。

So we went to Harvard to have this celebration, and that's where I met Anais about like four years ago.

他们非常有才华，而且特别专注于演唱盖丘亚语歌曲。

They were super talented, and they did focus a lot on doing Quechua songs.

因此，我想到了他们来参与这个机会。

So I thought of them for this opportunity.

谢谢你分享这些。

Thank you for that.

谢谢你为我们牵线搭桥。

Thank you for making that connection for us.

他们太棒了。

They were so awesome.

艾莉森，你是不是对盖丘亚文化有深厚而丰富的了解？

Allison, so did you just have a deep, kind of rich well of knowledge about Quechua culture?

当然了，克里斯，我对每种文化都有深入的了解。

Of course, I have deep knowledge about every culture, Chris.

还是你曾与一些顾问合作过？

Or did you work with any advisors?

当然，我们有顾问，对吧？

Of course, we had advisors, right?

是的，我们有两位非常有帮助的顾问。

Yeah, we had two very helpful advisors.

我们有一位来自科罗拉多大学博尔德分校的多丽丝，我丈夫恰好在那里上过大学，给科罗拉多大学博尔德分校打个call，我是铁粉。

We had Doris out of University of Colorado Boulder, where my husband happened to go to college, shout out CU Boulder, I'm a big fan.

拍摄期间，我们还有艾尔玛，她坐在视频指挥区陪在我身边，提供反馈，尤其是关于发音的，对吧，多琳卡？

And then on set with us, we had Irma, who sat with me in Video Village and gave feedback, particularly on pronunciation, right Dorinka?

这很有挑战性，非常具体。

It's challenging, very specific.

艾尔玛在这方面帮了大忙。

Irma was helpful with that.

而且，我们刚开始时在场的任何人都不是该文化的专家，当然，这与由丹妮丝·皮齐尼领导的天才设计团队紧密合作完成。

And no, none of us in the room when we started were experts in the culture and it, of course, was a collaboration with our genius design team led by Denise Pizzini.

每次谈到这一点，我们都会向她致谢，因为她从零开始打造了一个村庄。

We have give to her a shout out every time we talk about this because she created a village from scratch.

原本根本没有村庄。

There was no village.

她建起了一个村庄。

She built a village.

要建成这样一个村庄，真是令人惊叹。

Took a village It to make the village, was quite astounding.

还有我们的整个美术部门，他们如此细致而优美地设计了这一切。

And our whole art department who designed it so specifically and beautifully.

我要说，我特别兴奋于这个特定的场景，因为巧合的是，我女儿在秘鲁的农村开始了大学生活。

I will say that I was particularly excited about this specific setting because coincidentally, my daughter started college in Peru, in rural Peru.

她在秘鲁度过了大学的第一个学期，最近刚回来，带来了许多精彩的经历和故事。

She spent her first semester of college in Peru and she had recently returned with so many incredible experiences and stories.

她住在乌鲁班巴以外的一个家庭里，你知道的，她学了一点克丘亚语。

She lived with a family outside of Urubamba and she, you know, had learned a little bit of Quechua.

她曾在一所特殊儿童学校做志愿者，有着非常棒的经历。

She had volunteered at a school for children with special needs and she had a really incredible experience.

这两件事恰好在我生活中重合了，我突然在家庭层面和专业层面都更深地沉浸于这种文化的美中。

It just so happened that these two things coincided for me in my life, and I suddenly felt immersed, extra immersed, both on a family side and a professional side in the beauty of this culture.

这太酷了。

That is so cool.

我之前不知道这件事。

Didn't know about that.

多琳卡，你能谈谈吗？你有和我们的动作编舞尼托合作过吗？

Dorinka, can you talk a little bit, did you work with Nito, our movement choreographer?

因为这是你作为第一个自愿且经同意加入的未结合者的重要时刻，但你知道，这几乎是一种要求。

Because this is the big moment where you're the first of the unjoined to get joined voluntarily with consent, but you know, almost a demand.

一旦发生这种情况，你的身体就会有明显的改变。

Then once that happens, there's a noticeable physical change in you.

你愿意谈谈这是怎么发生的吗？

Do you want to talk at all about how that worked?

是的。

Yes.

这太棒了。

It is so wonderful.

自从我开始看这个节目，一切都变得清晰了。

Since I started watching the show, everything made sense to me.

所以那个特定的时刻对我来说也特别有意义。

So that specific moment also made a lot of sense to me.

尼托太棒了。

Nito was amazing.

他非常严格。

He was super strict.

他不断给我反馈，我尽了最大努力。

He kept giving me feedback, and I tried my best.

这既在精神上又在身体上令人精疲力尽，但与此同时，我完全沉浸在自己身体所经历的一切中。

It was very mentally and physically exhausting, but at the same time, it was like I was just really immersed in whatever was happening to my body.

在某个时刻，我真正感受到了这一切，尤其是在新墨西哥州，整个环境和布置让我在某个时刻觉得这一切无比真实。

At a certain moment I really felt it, especially being in New Mexico and with the entire environment and setup really felt real for me at a certain point.

他非常乐于助人。

He was super helpful.

我们有时会把它和拉斯维加斯的那一段相比较，对吧？

We compared it sometimes to the sequence in Vegas, right?

那一段同样有一大群人假装扮演角色，本质上是为了那位来自拉斯维加斯的老前辈，德贝特先生。

Which similarly has a big group of people who are pretending, essentially, for the sake of their one old schooler in Vegas, Mr.

而在这里，则是库苏马尤，重现了过去的世界。

Debate, and in this case Kusumayu, sort of enacting the world as it used to be.

是的，扮演普通人的角色。

Yeah, cosplaying as regular people.

没错，为了让这位受人喜爱的老前辈感到尽可能舒适或开心。

Exactly, to make a beloved old schooler feel as comfortable as possible or as pleased as possible.

然后她一改变你们群体和你的工作，对吧，杜林卡？

And then the second she changes the job of the group and of you, right Durinka?

这时尼托就登场了，他立即放下伪装，进入我所说的‘嫩芽模式’——大家动作愉悦地同步，彼此相连，而非机械僵硬。

Is where Nito comes in, was to immediately drop the facade and go into what I would call more of sprouts mode, which is pleasantly synchronized movement where everyone is connected and not robotic.

在安第斯山脉看到这种情况真的很有趣，因为在现实生活中，那里的集体性和社区观念非常重要。

It's really interesting to see this happening in the Andes because, well, in real life there is a huge importance in the collectiveness and the community there.

所以人们经常一起工作，这非常关键。

So people work together a lot and it's very important.

社区是一种感觉。

Community is a sense.

看到所有人在一起，感觉非常有趣。

And it felt very interesting seeing everyone.

当然，我们不是别人，但那里有一种相似性，真的让我感到喜悦。

Well, of course, we are not the others, but there was a similarity in there that really brought me joy.

这真的非常美丽。

It was truly beautiful.

我喜欢这一点。

I love that.

这就像文化本身中的连接性。

It's like the connectivity in the culture itself.

我的意思是，从这个角度看，这几乎与我们在拉斯维加斯的做法完全相反，那里一切都围绕着冲突和戏剧性。

I mean, in that way, it's almost the opposite of the sequence that we do in Vegas, where it's all about like conflict and drama.

是的。

Yes,

是的。

yes.

对吧？

Right?

胜利。

Winning.

是的。

Yes.

在这种情况下，对比要强烈得多。

So the contrast is much harsher in that case.

在这种情况下，它则更加微妙一些。

In this case, it's like a little bit more nuanced.

是的。

Yes.

没错，绝对如此。

Yeah, absolutely.

和埃琳娜和珍妮弗合作感觉怎么样？

What was it like working with Elena and Jennifer?

埃琳娜扮演了库萨马约的姨妈，而珍妮弗扮演了你的表妹。

So Elena played Cusamayo's auntie, and Jennifer played your cousin.

是的。

Yes.

我们真的，现在成了最好的朋友。

We are truly, like, now we're besties.

我们有一个群聊，讨论所有正在发生的事情，因为我们不住在同一个州。

We have a group chat where we talk about everything that's happening because we don't live in the same states.

在这个学习剧本的过程中，我们真的就像一家人一样。

We're really like family during this process of learning the script, everything.

在整个拍摄过程中，我们大概聚了两个月，但感觉非常亲密。

During the entire shooting process, we probably met for like two months, but we felt really close.

现在，我认为这是我从《Pluribus》中获得的最好的关系。

And right now, I think it's the best relationship that I have that I got from Pluribus.

他们人非常好，也非常有才华，我非常欣赏他们，也认为我们整体上在用克丘亚语和我们的身份来塑造这些角色时，都怀有最真诚的意图。

They are super nice and they are super talented and I think something that I really appreciate about them and I think us in general, that we have really the best intentions in portraying these characters in terms of the language Quechua, our identity.

这对我们来说意义重大。

It really means a lot to us.

我们非常在意自己如何被呈现，并尽最大努力去做好，真实地展现这一切。

And we care a lot how we're being portrayed, and we really try our best to to do this and represent well.

所以我非常感激，非常感激能和埃琳娜与詹妮弗一起完成这一切。

So I'm so grateful, so grateful that I was able to do it with with Elena and Jennifer.

太棒了，我超喜欢这一点。

That's so, I love that.

我们怎么没有群聊啊，艾莉森？

How come we don't have a group chat, Allison?

哦，你没在吗

Oh, are you not on

这个群聊。

the This is group chat.

你没在群聊里。

You're not on the group chat.

抱歉。

Sorry.

原来你是通过这种方式才知道自己没在群聊里的？

This is how you learn you're not on the group chat?

哦，没有。

Oh, no.

你得加

You gotta add

克里斯进群

Chris to the group

聊天群，大家。

chat, everybody.

这太让人崩溃了。

This is devastating.

这真是艺术照进现实。

It's very it's life imitating art.

你就是卡罗尔，我想。

You're the Carol, I guess,

那个酷的，哦，不。

of the cool Oh, no.

不。

No.

完全不是。

Not at all.

不。

No.

我们爱你。

We love you.

说到令人震惊的事，艾莉森，正如我们所说，这是第一个加入的元老级成员。

Speaking of devastating, Alison, like we said, this is the first old schooler unjoined to join.

为什么选择库苏马约呢？

Why was the choice made for it to be Kusumayo?

嗯，这一点在早期剧集中就已经确立了。

Well, that was established in the early episodes.

文斯早就创造了库苏马约这个角色，在第一季我们编剧室的工作中，我们时不时地讨论过，我们的哪位元老级角色可能会在某个时候发生变化，以及这种变化会是什么样子。

Vince had already created the character of Kusumayo, and throughout the work that we did in the writers Room for season one, we talked, you know, on and off about which one of our old schoolers might get changed at some point, what that might look like.

我们可以切换到一个完全不同的环境，以一种有趣的方式给观众带来惊喜或制造混乱。

We could go to a completely different environment and sort of surprise the audience or disorient everybody in a fun way.

什么时候这样做才合理？

When would that make sense?

我们一直隐隐约约地在脑海中萦绕着这个想法。

And we just had this kind of tickling us in the back of our collective minds.

记不清是谁最初提出了这个具体的想法，但我们最终决定：如果我们去秘鲁，系列 finale 的开场片段似乎正是体验我们的老成员自愿离开会是什么样的完美时刻。

It's impossible to remember who pitched this precise idea, but we landed upon what if we went to Peru and the teaser of the finale seemed like the perfect moment to experience what that would be like to have one of our old schoolers voluntarily.

我们一开始就已经设定，Kusumayo 是那个渴望与家人团聚的人。

And we established in the beginning that Kusumayo is the one, of course, who longs to be with her family.

因此，由她来转变显得非常自然。

So it felt right that she would be the one to turn.

在我们最初遇到的角色中，Kusumayo 是最年轻的。

Kusumayo, of the characters that we meet in the beginning, is the youngest.

在我们的英语使用者中，她相当年轻。我们确实提到过有一个小女孩，但还没见过她。

Quite a young person of our English speakers that we We do establish that there's a little girl, we don't meet her yet.

作为一个曾经是小女孩、如今已是年轻女性的母亲，我感觉，你曾经和家人在一起，和你的社群在一起——正如 Doreenka 所说，那是一个文化上紧密相连的社群——突然独自一人，会非常孤独。

As the mother of a young woman, formerly girl, it seems very lonely to have, you know, you've been with your family, you've been in your community, which as Doreenka was saying, is culturally a very connected community.

然后你就成了格格不入的那个人。

And then you're the odd person out.

我非常能理解这种渴望——你希望和那些一生爱你、关心你的人在一起，成为他们的一部分。

I identified with that longing a lot, that you would want to be with the people who loved you and cared for you your whole life and be part of that.

是的，我甚至能感同身受库西马约，我可能也会做同样的事。

Yes, and I even relate to Kusimayo, probably I'll do the same thing.

我和家人关系非常亲密，所以感觉这样做很自然。

I'm really close to my family, so it just felt right.

对于库西马约来说，我觉得对她来说也很合适，因为你最常相处的人。

And for Kusimayo, I feel it feels right to her as well, the people that you spend the most time with.

而且他们看起来很快乐，并不是加入什么可怕的东西。

And they seem happy, it's not like you're joining something terrible.

我的意思是，多琳卡，你刚才说你可能会做同样的选择，这会让老板非常高兴，因为我们真正希望的是，这一切能引发真诚的哲学讨论；而我在编剧室里有时是少数派，坦白说，我并不认为我会选择加入并放弃自己的个性。

I mean, I think that the fact that you just said, Dorinka, that you would probably make the same choice will make the boss very happy because what we really hoped with all of this is that there would be genuine philosophical debate and I was sometimes in the minority, let's just say in the writer's room, kind of not saying yes, I would join and give up my individuality, I don't think I would.

不过，我明白这背后吸引人的地方。

However, I see what is tempting about it.

加入之后，会带来一种平静、美丽，以及摆脱神经质、挣扎、暴力和分裂的释放感，我能看到其中的好处。

There is a peace and a beauty and a release of neurosis and struggle and violence and division that comes with the joining, and I can see the upside.

你知道吗，就像第二集里那个精彩的时刻，当久美子说：‘这听起来不是很美好吗？’

You know, it's like in episode two, that great moment when Kusumayo, when she's like, Doesn't it sound wonderful?

然后她又说：‘你在说什么呢？’

And she's like, What are you talking about?

他们说：‘你怎么还没问过？’

They're like, How did you How have you not asked?

你怎么还没问过那是什么感觉？

How have you not asked what it's like?

我的意思是，作家卡罗尔，有时候确实有点缺乏好奇心。

I mean, a writer, Carol, a little incurious at times.

只是有点过于专注于自己脑子里的东西。

Just a little kind of like focused on the things that are, you know, in her head.

也许吧。

Perhaps.

我们都在不断进化。

We're all evolving.

我认为，这个预告片中最令人心酸的时刻之一，除了这种巨大变革带来的不祥感之外，就是库苏马约放走了所有动物，包括那只小山羊。

I think maybe one of the saddest moments of this teaser, besides just this sort of ominousness of this massive change that's happening, is when Kusumayo lets all the animals go, including that baby goat.

说实话，这部剧的真正明星是一只小山羊。

Really, the star of the show is a baby goat.

没错，坦白说。

Mean, let's face it.

你能说说吗，首先，我该怎么弄到一只这样的小山羊？

Can you talk about, first of all, how do I get myself one of those baby goats?

听起来真的很棒。

That sounds really fantastic.

那工作起来是什么感觉？

And what was it like working?

我的意思是，大家总是说孩子和动物最难搞，对吧？

I mean, everybody always says kids and animals, right?

最难合作的。

The hardest to work with.

但说说和那只山羊合作的感觉。

But talk about working with that goat.

是啊，山羊们太可爱了。

Yeah, the goats were so cute.

它们就像我们的情感支持动物，对吧，德琳卡？

They were like our emotional support animals, right, Derinka?

我们都想摸摸那些山羊。

We all wanted to pet the goats.

克里斯，你大概能弄到一只小山羊，但你也得养一只成年山羊。

And you probably could get yourself a baby goat, Chris, but you then would also have to have a grown up goat.

你不能只是，你知道的，租一只小山羊。

Like you can't just, you know, rent the baby.

或者你可以去参加那种山羊会爬到你身上走动的瑜伽课

Or you could go to one of those yoga classes where the goats get on top of you and walk That on your

这似乎是正确的做法。

seems like the way to do it.

那只小山羊相当聪明，当然，片场还有一位出色的山羊训练师，全程协助照顾这只小山羊。

That baby goat was kind of a genius because, and there was a wonderful, of course, goat wrangler trainer on set who was helping with every moment of the baby goat.

这非常有帮助。

And that was very helpful.

当那只小山羊跳上座位时——比如当多琳卡坐在树桩上抚摸山羊，你把山羊放下来站起来后，那只小山羊就跳上了你的座位——那是即兴发挥的。

When that little goat jumped up on the seat, like when Dorinka's sitting on the stump, petting the goat, and then you put the goat down and you stand up, and the little goat jumped up on your seat, that was improvised.

是的。

Yes.

干得好，小山羊。

Good job, baby goat.

嗯。

Yeah.

天啊。

Oh my God.

那只小山羊在进行互动表演。

That baby goat was doing crowd work.

是的。

Yes.

然而，在最后山羊被放出来时，那只小山羊必须准确到位。

However, at the end, when the goats are released, the baby goat did have to hit its mark.

那不是即兴发挥。

That was not improvised.

那

That

那一瞬间转瞬即逝，我不确定普通观众是否能理解，一只小山羊竟然能如此出色地完成表演。

moment just goes by, I don't know that the casual viewer would understand just how miraculous it is that a baby goat, I mean, like gave a performance.

我的意思是，那只山羊的表现是真正意义上的表演。

I mean, that is a legitimate performance that that goat is giving.

是的。

Yes.

我想特别感谢塔玛拉·布罗克，她是我们的出色山羊驯养员，帮助我们完成了编排。

And I wanna give a shout out to Tamara Brock, who was our amazing goat wrangler, who really helped choreograph.

比如我们让尼托为人类演员编排动作，但他并不是山羊专家。

Like we had Nito choreographing for the folks, the humans, but not a goat expert.

我们的人员驯养员。

Our human wrangler.

对。

Right.

所以我们还有一位山羊编排专家。

So we also had our goat choreography expert.

在最后的时刻，当库苏马尤打开门，山羊们慢慢走出去时，塔玛拉就在镜头外，帮助引导小山羊找到它的位置。

So in the final moment when Kusumayu opens the gate and the goats wander out, Tamara was just off camera and sort of helping guide baby goat to find its mark.

所以小山羊才能准确到位，然后环顾四周，再环顾四周。

And that's why the baby hits the mark and then kind of looks around and kind of looks around.

我觉得这只小山羊看起来有点紧张，有点不安。

And I think the baby goat does look a little bit anxious, a little nervous.

所以它呈现的效果是，库苏马约在哪里？

So it plays as, where is Kusumayo?

我的朋友在哪里？

Where is my friend?

对。

Right.

哎呀。

Aw.

我希望人们不会以为这是AI生成的，因为那是一场出色的表演。

I hope people don't think it's AI because that was an amazing performance.

哦，说到这个，多琳卡。

Oh, point, Dorinka.

是的。

Yes.

不是AI。

No AI.

也不是特效。

Nor is it VFX.

那是真实的。

That's real.

是啊，不是那种假的，是真的真的。

Yeah, no mean, real real.

那些镜头里有特效吗？因为我们加了一些山，延伸了树线，添加了一些元素，尤其是在广角镜头中，我们添加了几座建筑，但那只山羊完全是自然的。

Are VFX in those shots because we added some mountains, we extended tree lines, we added, and especially in the wider shots, we added several structures, but the goat is, that is all natural.

这是我第一次抱小山羊。

My first time to holding a baby goat.

哦，真好。

Oh, nice.

但它在那一刻消除了我所有的紧张和焦虑情绪。

But it kind of took out all my nervousness or anxious emotions at that moment.

我想留在那里，坐在那里，吃在那里。

I wanted to stay there and sit there and eat there.

这是房间里的一段对话，我们某种程度上可以利用、或者说利用幼小动物的可爱，来凸显一个复杂的哲学时刻：一方面，人们彼此相连，快乐、平静而放松。

It was a conversation in the room that we could, in a way, use, let's just say exploit, the sweetness of a young animal to kind of put a finer point on a complicated philosophical moment of, on the one hand, the people are joined and happy and calm and relaxed.

动物们获得了自由，这从某种角度看是积极的，取决于你的立场，但从此以后将无人再照顾它们。

The animals are freed, which you could look at as a positive, depending on your perspective, and yet nobody will care for them anymore.

对。

Right.

尤其是对于家养动物来说，这可能意味着死刑。

Especially for domesticated animals, that can be a death sentence.

是的。

Yeah.

在我们的阿尔伯克基世界里，我们确实提到过，如果有些狗特别依恋某个特定的人，那么这些狗可以留下来。

We do talk about in our Albuquerque world that if there are dogs who are particularly attached to specific individuals, as we say, that, that the dogs can hang around.

所以我们并不确定小毛毯的最终命运，但它确实成为一个充满伤感的分离时刻。

So we don't know for sure what happens to Baby Coat, but it does land as a kind of poignant moment of separation.

而且也是一个非常安静的时刻。

And a very quiet moment too.

这是我经常思考的问题，你在第六集里能看到，在这里也能看到。

That is something that I think about a lot, and you see it in six, and you see it in this.

当节目结束时，当他们不再为那些旧时代的人、未连接的人假装时，他们的生活变得非常安静，因为他们不说话，所有人都彼此连接。

When the show stops, when they stop pretending for the old schoolers, the unjoined, their lives, because they're not talking, because they're all connected, it's a very quiet existence.

是的，完全正确。

Yes, exactly right.

所以戈登在这一段中想要呈现的对比是：有歌唱、有鼓掌，有一种欢快的声景。

So that was the contrast that Gordon was going for in the sequence is that there's singing and there's clapping and there, you know, there's sort of a, in this case, joyful soundscape.

但一旦她转变了，这一切就都不再必要了。

And then as soon as she's changed, none of that is necessary anymore.

所以这是一种某种意义上的失去，但同时也获得了‘我们皆为一体’的体验，如果这算是一种获得的话。

So it's a certain kind of a loss, but with the gain of we're all one, if that is a gain.

是的，我的意思是，谁知道那种体验是什么样的呢？

Yeah, well, I mean, who knows what that experience is like?

我想多琳卡的一部分知道，你身上库苏马约的那部分。

I guess part of Dorinka does, the Kusumayo part of you.

是的，是的，我确实如此。

Yes, yes, I do.

但她不会告诉我们。

But she's not gonna tell us.

我从她的眼神中看得出来，她守口如瓶。

I can see in her eyes she's playing it pretty close to the vest.

我想说，我非常确定剧本中预告片的最后一句是‘妈妈’。

I will say, I'm pretty sure that in the script, the last line of the teaser is, Ma.

他们就像小山羊一样，咩咩叫着。

They're like, Off the baby goat, bleating.

我非常喜欢这个预告片。

I love this teaser.

剪辑起来非常具有挑战性。

It was very challenging to edit.

你能不能稍微谈一谈，因为是你

Why don't you talk about that a little, since you

是的，请。

Yes, did please.

你还记得编辑时遇到的具体挑战是什么吗？

Do you remember what one particular challenge was in terms of the editing?

尤其是这一点，关键在于我们跟随的是谁的视角。

Especially with that, it's all about whose head we're in.

我的意思是，这在剪辑中通常是如此。

I mean, that's often the case with editing.

也就是说，我们是从谁的视角来呈现这个故事的？

It's like, whose perspective are we approaching this from?

我的意思是，表面上看，我们显然处于某个人的视角，因为这是唯一被赋予且未被排除的视角。

I mean, it's seemingly very clear whose perspective we're in because it's the only perspective we're really being privileged and unjoined person.

但你该如何讲述整个村庄的故事，它的运作机制，以及这个箱子的移动过程呢？

But how do you tell the story of this entire village and what is going on, mechanics of it, and just the movements of this crate?

而一旦进入歌唱段落，那可能是最具挑战性的部分，因为要使用能展现所有人歌唱的镜头，你在选择何时使用哪些片段时非常受限，因此关键在于挑选这些时刻。

And then once it got into the singing, that was probably the most challenging thing, because in order to use shots where you can see everybody singing, you're fairly limited as far as which pieces you can use when, and so it's about picking those moments.

事实上，有一段关于阿娜伊斯唱歌的精彩特写镜头，我们曾非常努力地想把它融入进去，因为我们真的很想让她们参与其中，

In fact, there's a really great closer shot of Anais singing, and it was one that we really struggled to work in because we really wanted to give them To feed their them,

是的。

yeah.

对。

Yeah.

所以我们得找到一个时机，只有那么一个可能的时刻，可以在不破坏故事节奏的前提下，让它成为故事的一部分，而不仅仅只是‘看，有人在唱歌’。

And so it was about finding, there was like only one possible moment that we could do it without disrupting the flow of the story, while making it part of the story, basically, and not just, Here's a shot of somebody singing.

我很高兴我们最终成功加入了这段，因为她们对这首歌的帮助至关重要，而且演唱得非常出色。

I'm really happy that we were able to get that in there because they were so instrumental in helping with that song, and the singing is really great.

她们有点像乐队领队，对吧？

And they were kind of a, almost like a band leader, right?

差不多，是的。

Sort of, Yeah.

合唱团。

Choir.

合唱团领唱

Choir leader.

是的

Yeah.

感谢大家在周日抽出时间。

I appreciate you all taking time on a Sunday.

谢谢你们和我们聊天。

Thanks for chatting with us.

当然。

Absolutely.

非常感谢。

Thank you so much.

好的。

Alright.

特别感谢多林卡·阿罗尼斯和艾莉森·塔特洛克参与本期附加集，也感谢您收听《普卢里巴斯》——这部由高桥制作公司和索尼影视电视公司制作的Apple TV官方播客。

Thank you so much to Dorinka Aronis and Alison Tatlock for joining us on this bonus episode, and thank you for listening to Pluribus, the official podcast, an Apple TV podcast produced by Highbridge Productions and Sony Pictures Television.

我不太确定这是否是第一季的最后一集播客，还是我们会再制作更多这样的内容，但请持续关注这个频道。

I'm not quite sure if this is the final podcast of the first season or if we're gonna do some more of these, but, you know, stay tuned to this feed.

请继续关注，所有最新动态都会在这里发布。

Keep following it, and you'll get all the updates right here on this feed.

并在Apple TV上观看《Pluribus》，如有提供的话。

And watch Pluribus on Apple TV where available.

我们的编辑和混音师是蔡尼古拉斯。

Our editor and mixer, it's Nicholas Tsai.

主题音乐由戴夫·波特创作。

Theme music by Dave Porter.

联合制片人是阿拉娜·霍夫曼、贾斯汀·韦贝斯特和蔡尼古拉斯。

Associate producers are Alana Hoffman, Justin Verbeest, and Nicholas Tsai.

执行制片人是詹·卡罗尔和我，你们的主持人克里斯·麦卡贝尔。

Executive producers are Jen Carroll and me, your host, Chris McCaleb.

请在Apple播客上关注并收听。

Follow and listen on Apple Podcasts.