全是她的错

本周《与斯科特·卡特共话诸神》节目

This week on Ye Gods with Scott Carter.

我们已身处一个残酷的时代良久

We've been living in an age of cruelty for a while.

如今我们正深陷腐败的时代

We are now in an age of corruption.

《纽约时报》专栏作家大卫·弗伦奇呼吁我们通过抵抗来创造团结

New York Times columnist David French urges us to create unity through resistance.

在残酷的时代里，善良就是反叛

In an age of cruelty, kindness is rebellious.

在腐败的时代里，美德就是反叛

In an age of corruption, virtue is rebellious.

我是斯科特·卡特

I'm Scott Carter.

请在各播客平台搜索'Yee Gon's'收听大卫·弗伦奇的节目

Listen to David French on Yee Gon's wherever you get your podcasts.

这部引人入胜的Peacock剧集《全是她的错》以一个可爱的孩子、一位艾美奖得主和一桩谜案开篇。

The entertaining Peacock series, All Her Fault, begins with a cute kid, an Emmy winner, and a mystery.

由《继承之战》女星莎拉·斯努克饰演的母亲去接参加游戏日的儿子，却被告知孩子根本不在那里。

A mom played by Succession's Sarah Snook goes to pick up her young son from a play date and is told that he's not there.

事实上，开门的女人表示从未听说过这个孩子。

In fact, the woman who answers the door has never heard of him.

虽然孩子失踪的痛苦已足够折磨人，但该剧最终不仅审视了玛丽莎的婚姻，还揭示了故事中多位女性被迫容忍身边男性行为失范的生存困境。

And while the agony of a missing child is bad enough, the show ultimately interrogates not only Marissa's marriage, but also the way multiple women in the story are forced to accommodate the behavior and misbehavior of men in their lives.

我是琳达·霍姆斯，今天我们将在NPR《流行文化欢乐时光》节目中讨论《全是她的错》。

I'm Linda Holmes, and we're talking about all her fault today on NPR's pop culture happy hour.

嘿。

Hey.

我是《车迷天下》的雷。

It's Ray from Car Talk.

听腻了NPR节目里那些深刻用心的内容？

You're tired of all the depth and thoughtful care that goes into NPR shows?

想来点老派的胡闹和跌跌撞撞地搞清状况吗？

Want some good old fashioned goofing around and stumbling to figure out what's going on?

我又开始偶尔回答汽车问题了。

Well, I've been taking occasional car questions again.

注册NPR Plus会员就能听到这些内容，还有大量其他福利节目。

You can hear them by signing up for NPR Plus along with lots of other bonus content.

只需访问+.npr.org。

Just go to +.npr.org.

我们是更容易从认为糟糕的事物中发现优点，还是从热爱的事物中筛选优点？

Is it easier for us to find the positives in something we considered bad or to narrow down the positives of something we loved?

我是格伦·威尔顿。

I'm Glenn Weldon.

在最新一期《流行文化欢乐时光》Plus版节目中，阿伊莎和我讨论了评论工作的挑战。

On the latest pop culture happy hour plus episode, Ayesha and I discuss the challenges of criticism.

注册+.npr.org/happy的《流行文化欢乐时光》Plus会员，即可收听所有Plus版特别节目并支持我们的工作。

You can listen to all our plus bonus episodes and support our work by signing up for pop culture happy hour plus at +.npr.org/happy.

短短三年间，CHAT GPT已经改变了我们对人工智能的认知和互动方式。

In just three years, CHAT GPT has changed the way we think about and interact with artificial intelligence.

在大学校园里，其影响迅速显现，让教师和管理人员措手不及。

On college campuses, the impact has been swift, leaving teachers and administrators scrambling.

如果我们不够谨慎，AI的存在可能会毒害我们与学生的关系。

If we're not careful, the presence of AI can poison our relationships with our students.

人工智能如何改变高等教育？

How is AI changing higher education?

现在收听NPR《Up First》播客的周日特辑报道。

Listen now to the Sunday story on the Up First podcast from NPR.

这是一个安全空间。

This is a safe space.

你有多频繁在Zillow上浏览房屋信息？

How often do you scroll on Zillow looking at homes?

目前有很多人觉得这不在他们的未来规划中，至少短期内不会实现。

There are a lot of people who right now don't feel like it's in their future, at least not in their in their near term future.

如果现阶段购房热潮已过，我们这些想分一杯羹的人接下来该怎么办？

If homeownership is awash at this point, what's next for those of us who want a piece of the pie?

请在NPR应用或你获取播客的任何平台收听《It's Been a Minute》节目。

Listen to It's Been a Minute on the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts.

今天与我连线的是《Vulture》电视评论家罗克珊娜·哈达迪。

Joining me today is Vulture TV critic Roxanna Haddadi.

嗨，罗克珊娜。

Hey, Roxanna.

嗨，琳达。

Hey, Linda.

见到你真高兴。

So good to see you.

好的。

Okay.

《全是她的错》改编自安德烈娅·玛拉的小说。

So All Her Fault is based on a novel by Andrea Mara.

故事讲述了一位名叫玛丽莎的财富经理，由莎拉·斯努克饰演，她与丈夫彼得（杰克·莱西饰）和可爱的儿子米洛过着优渥的生活。

It tells the story of a wealth manager named Marissa, played by Sarah Snook, who lives a very cushy life with her husband Peter, played by Jake Lacey, and her adorable son, Milo.

有一天，当她去一位仅泛泛之交的家中接米洛参加游戏约会时，开门的女人完全不认识她，也没有孩子可接。

One day, when she goes to pick up Milo from a play date at the home of a family she knows only casually, the woman who answers the door has no idea who she is, and there is no child to pick up.

你好。

Hi.

我是玛丽莎。

I'm Marissa.

我来接我儿子米洛。

I'm here to pick up my son, Milo.

我想你找错房子了。

I think you've got the wrong house.

这里没有叫米洛的孩子。

There's no Milo here.

剧情充满曲折转折，尤其是当玛丽莎结识了米洛学校的另一位母亲珍妮（达科塔·范宁饰）后。

There are a lot of twists and turns, a lot of them, particularly as Marissa gets to know Jenny, another mom at Milo's school played by Dakota Fanning.

珍妮是敌是友起初难以分辨，但两位女性建立起一种微妙的关系。

Jenny's status as friend or foe is initially hard to sort out, but the two women forge an uneasy bond.

全八集现已上线播出。

All eight episodes are streaming now.

罗克珊娜，我就直说了吧。

Roxanna, I'm gonna cut to the chase here.

你评论的标题称这部剧为杰作。

The headline of your review called this show a masterpiece.

说说这个评价吧。

Tell me about that.

确实如此。

It did.

不过需要说明的是，标题称其为'厌男杰作'。

Well, I have to qualify that it called it a misandrist masterpiece.

没错。

Yes.

没错。

Correct.

是的。

Yes.

我确实想强调，这部剧非常出色地刻画了某一阶层、某一声望级别的某些男性确实是最糟糕的。

Really wanted to make sure that I was articulating the fact that this show does a very good job being like certain men of a certain class and a certain level of prestige are absolutely the worst.

对吧？

Right?

而且，这类家庭剧似乎都有某种固定模式。

And like, we sort of have this formula in these sort of domestic shows.

对吧？

Right?

基本上我们都能追溯到《大小谎言》这样的源头。

Like, we trace pretty much all of them back to like Big Little Lies.

但到现在，类似剧集已经出了几十部了。

But at this point, there have been like dozens of these.

对吧？

Right?

确实很多。

There are a lot.

是啊。

Yeah.

之所以这么多，是因为它们借鉴了惊悚文学的创作传统，这类作品本就数量庞大。

There are a lot because they're pulling from a thriller, like literature tradition where there are a lot.

但我真正喜欢的是，我觉得莎拉·斯努克和达科塔·范宁的对手戏非常精彩。

But what I really liked about this is I really thought that Sarah Snook and Dakota Fanning were great together.

这部剧给我最大的惊喜就是，我们能看到这两位女性在最不可能、最离奇的境遇中相遇，建立起一段真挚且不断成长的友谊。

Like that was the biggest surprise of the show for me that we were really getting this, like, meaningful, growing friendship between these women who are thrown together in, the unlikeliest, wildest of circumstances.

是的。

Yes.

没错。

Yes.

但他们之间形成了这种实实在在的人性纽带。

But they form this, like, really tangible human bond.

坐在这里笑，而我儿子却失踪了。

Sitting here laughing while my son is missing.

还有一位母亲，我...哦，她也是人。

And a up mother who I Oh, she's human.

你也是人。

You're human.

停下。

Stop.

看着我。

Look at me.

我太喜欢那段了。

I loved that.

真的。

Truly.

我觉得这段友谊刻画得非常到位，她们就像真实存在的人。

Like, I thought that it was a very well depicted friendship and that they felt like real people.

而且我真心认为她们之间的对话——当然剧中会有闪回，毕竟这类剧最爱用闪回手法。

And I really thought that the conversations between the two of them and, of course, you're getting flashbacks because this type of show loves flashbacks.

我同意。

I agree.

我们可以稍后讨论这点。

We can get to that.

但我真的觉得，这两个女人因共同破解谜团而建立纽带，因吐槽丈夫有多糟糕而亲近，因共同经历二十一世纪二十年代为人妻母的艰难处境而惺惺相惜——这样的故事框架特别打动我。

But I really I really thought that, like, the frame of these two women together bonding over this mystery, bonding over how terrible their husbands are, bonding over the very difficult experience of being like a mother and wife alive in the twenty twenties.

嗯哼。

Uh-huh.

所有这些情节都让我很有共鸣。

All that really worked for me.

是啊。

Yeah.

你知道，当我第一次读到剧情简介时，上面写着'她去接儿子，但人们都说从未听说过这个孩子'。

You know, when I first when I read the logline and it was like, she goes to pick up her son and people are there like, I've never heard of him.

一开始我还以为，她是不是掉进了时空隧道

And I thought at the beginning, I was like, oh, did she, like, step into a wormhole

之类的？

or something like that?

没错。

Right.

是啊。

Yeah.

当我发现这是个绑架故事时，才明白这其实是关于这些富裕白人母亲的《大小谎言》式剧情。

When I discovered it was an abduction story, then it kind of came into focus for me that it was a big little Liese kind of thing, these rich white moms.

但我喜欢的是剧中的女性——尤其是玛丽莎——最终能做出这类故事里女性通常无法做出的决定。

But what I liked about it was the women, particularly Marissa, ultimately, like, get to make some decisions that the women in these stories don't always get to make.

有时候她们只能受制于丈夫，或是被动应对他人的行动。

Sometimes they are sort of at the mercy of their husbands or other people do things, and then they react.

然后事情就这样，怎么说呢，自然而然地发生了。

And everything just kinda, like, turns out, if I can put it that way.

是的。

Yeah.

她们足够大胆地说，这个女人在经历这一切后，做出了关于自我保护和为孩子着想的决定，可能不是所有这类剧都会允许她这么做。

And they're bold enough to say, this woman, as a result of all these things, make some decisions about what she needs to do for self preservation and the good of her kid that maybe not every show like this would allow her to do.

嗯。

Mhmm.

这部剧已经播出一段时间了。

So this show's been out for a while.

如果你还没看过，我们接下来要剧透一些关键的剧情转折。

If you haven't already seen it, we are about to spoil a bunch of these twisty things that happen.

大家都准备好了吗？

So everybody ready?

好的。

Okay.

我觉得最令人震惊的是，马丽莎的丈夫原来表现得更加恶劣，因为确实如此。

What I think is fascinating is that Marissa's husband turns out to be sort of more spectacularly bad because Yeah.

孩子被绑架的真相是，他被自己的生母绑架了——生母当时与马丽莎和她丈夫同在一场车祸中。

The resolution of the child abduction is that he was abducted by his biological mother who was in a car accident with Marissa and her husband.

在马丽莎昏迷期间，他调换了婴儿，因为他们自己的小婴儿已在事故中夭折。

And while Marissa was unconscious, he switched the baby because they had a little baby who had died in the accident.

你偷走了...你偷走了她的孩子。

You stole you stole her child.

不。

No.

我做了...我认为对所有人都正确的事。

I did I did what I thought was right for everyone.

你偷了个孩子，彼得。

Stole a child, Peter.

搞什么...

What the

我救了那个孩子。

I saved that baby.

我救了那个孩子，也让你免受了失去儿子的痛苦。

I saved that baby, and I saved you the pain of losing a son.

我救了所有人。

I saved all of us.

天啊。

Oh my god.

彼得算是更恶劣的那种，但珍妮的丈夫珍妮的丈夫才是最没用的，只会抱怨，一点忙都帮不上。

Peter is sort of the more spectacularly wicked, but Jenny's husband Jenny's husband is just the most trifling, just unhelpful, whiny.

他就是2025年版的‘废柴’代表。

He is twenty twenty five's version of no scrubs.

真的糟透了。

Like, it is really bad.

有个情节是珍妮的丈夫本该去处理一件很重要的事，结果她不得不独自在家照顾孩子处理所有事情。

And there is this moment where Jenny he's supposed to be off doing something very important that as a result of which, she has to take care of everything at home and take care of the their son and everything like that.

你以为她会发现他有外遇。

You think she's gonna find him having an affair.

这种结局太老套了。

That is the kind of cliched end to this.

她发现他坐在停车场里，用手机看YouTube视频，喝着大杯饮料，就在那儿闲晃。

She finds him sitting in a parking lot, watching, like, stuff on YouTube on his phone, drinking like a big gulp, and just, like, hanging out.

当他试图辩解时，说什么'我只是需要休息一下'。

And when he sort of makes the argument, like, I just need a break.

我需要一些属于自己的时间。

I need some time to myself.

有时候我也需要一点空间和时间来自我照顾。

Sometimes I need a bit of space and time and a little self care too.

好吗？

Alright?

哦

Oh

天啊。

god.

我知道。

I know.

我太了解了。

Boy, do I know.

对。

Right.

所以这不必搞得像件大事。

So this doesn't have to be like a big deal.

我知道，因为我梦到过。

I know because I dream of it.

一方面，确实如此。

On the one hand, sure.

但另一方面，她无法理解这点，而他通过撒谎，实质上将家庭中所有可用的精力都占为己有，满足自己的需求。

On the other hand, she doesn't get that, and he, by lying, has appropriated essentially all of the available energy in the family to himself for his own needs.

在某种程度上，他那种平庸的恶行更让我愤怒，确实如此。

And in some ways, his pedestrian evil was more, like, infuriating to me Yeah.

比起彼得那种真正的恶棍。

Than Peter, the genuine villain.

我认为我真正欣赏的正是你刚才阐述的，那就是我们看到了两种截然不同的搞砸关系的方式。

I think that what I really enjoyed is exactly what you just laid out, which is that we get two very different versions of how you can screw up a relationship.

而你只是表现出一种正常程度的自私。

And that you're just like a normal amount of selfish.

对吧？

Right?

就像编造一个小谎言来获得独处时间，结果却演变成这么大的事。

Like making up like a little lie to get some time to yourself that then spins into this big thing.

最可悲的是他就坐在车里刷着TikTok。

It's super pathetic that he's just in his car like watching TikTok.

我是说，谁不喜欢这么做呢？

I mean, who doesn't love doing that?

对吧？

Right?

当然啦。

Like Of course.

对这个活动绝无贬低之意。

No shade to that activity.

确实。

Sure.

个人独处时间完全合理。

Time to yourself is like totally valid.

通过虚构一个由你主导的课后俱乐部来获取个人时间。

Time to yourself by making up an entire after school club that you are leading.

天啊。

Oh my god.

有些特质超越了阶级界限，并且是社会对男性的教化，我觉得这也很耐人寻味。

There are some qualities that transcend class and that are like taught socially to men, which I think is also like very interesting.

达科塔·范宁饰演的角色是婚姻中承担主要经济支柱的一方，然而他却能做出这些事。

Dakota Fanning's character is like the one who is pulling all the weight and the primary breadwinner in their marriage and yet he is able to do these things.

是啊。

Yeah.

因为在文化和社会层面，男性需要远离家庭的时间是被允许的。

Because like culturally and socially, it's okay for men to need time away from their families.

没错。

Right.

对。

Right.

所以我几乎同意你的观点，他的恶劣程度可能比杰克·莱西的角色更隐蔽。

So yeah, like I almost agree with you that like his level of terribleness is like more insidious perhaps than Jake Lacey's.

我觉得这感觉更熟悉。

I think it feels more familiar.

就像，我认为这感觉更贴近现实。

Like, I think it feels more accessible.

你不会听到太多关于婴儿调换的故事。

You're not gonna get a ton of baby switch stories.

你认识很多被哄骗去承担所有责任的人吗？

Do you do you know a lot of people who have been sort of hoodwinked into taking all of the responsibility for everything.

当然。

Absolutely.

但当他们与杰克·莱西打交道时，我喜欢这样一个事实：是的，他犯下了这桩惊人的恶行。

But when they do deal with Jake Lacey, I like the fact that, yes, he has this spectacular evil deed.

对吧？

Right?

而这引发了其他恶行。

And that sets off, you know, other evil deeds.

但你在剧集推进过程中还会发现，他们揭露了他做过的所有其他事情，你会开始看到他是如何为了自己的自尊心而暗中破坏和搞砸一切的——比如在导致他兄弟坐轮椅的伤势上撒谎。

But you also find out over the course of the show, they uncover all these other things that he has done, and you start to see how he is undermining and sabotaging for his own ego when it comes to lying about the injury that caused his brother to use a wheelchair.

在关于那次伤势的谎言上，这又相当戏剧性。

When it comes to lying about that injury, that's, again, pretty dramatic.

但还有很多其他事情，就像是小打小闹的刁难。

But there's a lot of other stuff that's just, like, needling.

是啊。

Yeah.

这些更大的恶行并非凭空发生。

They don't make these bigger evil deeds happen in a vacuum.

它们发生在他几乎允许自己决定一切的背景下。

They happen in the context of him pretty much giving himself permission to decide everything.

首先要说的是，杰克·莱西现在差不多一直在做这类角色。

The first thing to say about that is that, like, Jake Lacey has just been sort of like doing this now.

对吧？

Right?

就像在《白莲花》之后，他似乎已经适应了这个定位。

Like after the White Lotus, he's sort of like settled into this niche.

而且他在这方面非常出色。

And he's very good at it.

但与此同时，一旦你选了杰克·莱西，我就觉得我得盯着这家伙，因为肯定会出什么事。

But at the same time, once you cast Jake Lacey, I'm like, I'm gonna keep an eye on this guy because something is gonna happen here.

那将会很糟糕。

That is going to be bad.

但也有一些非常微妙、笔锋犀利的对话场景，就像是婚姻中的情感劳动，以及我们通常认为女性该做的事。

But there are also these very subtle, sharply written exchanges where it's sort of like this is the emotional labor of like a marriage and what we just assume that women do.

没错。

Right.

但作为一个男人，你同样可以做到这些。

But, like, you as a man can also do that.

卡明斯基先生，您察觉到什么异常了吗？

Did you sense anything, mister Kaminski?

什么？

What?

您和保姆的推荐人沟通时，有没有感觉到什么不对劲的地方？

When you spoke to the nanny's references, did you sense anything unusual?

哦，我我没和任何人说过话。

Oh, I I didn't talk to anyone.

我是说，这其实是珍妮负责的部分。

I mean, that's really more Jenny's department.

我明白了。

I see.

我认为剧名《全是她的错》非常非常贴合这部剧的主题。

And I think the title, all her fault, turned out to be very, very much what the show is about.

对吧？

Right?

是的。

Yeah.

因为无论是珍妮的生活、玛丽莎的生活，还是彼得的姐姐和米洛生母的生活，这部剧都在探讨如何利用负罪感来压缩这些女性的世界、限制她们的选择、让她们自我怀疑，最终使她们在某种程度上变得顺从——因为她们内心充满了自我否定。

Because it is about both in terms of Jenny's life and in terms of Marissa's life, and to a lesser extent to Peter's sister's life and Milo's biological mom, it is about the way that guilt is used on all these women to kind of shrink their worlds and shrink their options and make them feel terrible and make them doubt themselves and cause them to become, in a way, compliant because they are so filled with self doubt.

但这一切的呈现方式之一（这里要开始涉及大结局剧透了）

But one of the ways in which this all plays out and this is sort of getting into end, end, end game spoilers.

但最终发生的是，在这一切被揭露后，玛丽莎意识到——如果我坦白真相，因为到这时生母已经去世了。

But what happens at the very end is that after this is all revealed, Marissa realizes, if I tell the truth about what happened because by this point, the biological mother has died.

嗯。

Yeah.

如果我坦白真相，他们就会把米洛从我身边带走。

If I tell the truth about what happened, they will take Milo away from me.

如果我不说真相，我就必须继续和彼得在一起，因为他永远不会让我离开。

If I don't tell the truth about what happened, I have to stay with Peter because he will never let me leave.

所以她认定死亡是唯一的出路——他的死亡，而非她的。

So she decides death is her only option, his, not hers.

她采取的方式是通过破坏他治疗过敏的肾上腺素笔，实质上诱发了一次过敏发作。

And the way that she goes about that is by sabotaging his EpiPen for his allergy and essentially inducing an allergy attack.

是的。

Yeah.

有那么一刻，当他意识到自己大难临头时，他试图告诉她肾上腺素笔不可能不在它应该在的地方。

And there's a moment when he is realizing that he's in big trouble, and he's trying to tell her that it can't be that the EpiPen isn't where it's supposed to be.

你总是那个最大的紧急状况。

You're always that big emergency.

基特。

Kit.

确实如此。

That's true.

我帮你管理过敏问题。

I manage your allergy for you.

我帮你管理过敏问题。

I manage your allergy for you.

所以这部剧让他最终死于自己‘武器化无能’的手段下。

And so the show allows him to essentially die at the hand of his own weaponized incompetence.

嗯。

Mhmm.

从这个意义上说，真的很解气。

In that sense, really satisfying.

就像，如果他愿意打理好自己的事情，或许还能活下来。

Like, if he had just been willing to take care of his own stuff, he might have remained alive Yeah.

继续当个讨人厌的混蛋。

To continue to be a menacing jerk.

这是绝佳的蛇蝎美人定位。

It is excellent femme fatale positioning.

对吧？

Right?

就像我们过去在黑色电影里常做的——塑造一个主动决定摆脱某种影响或压迫的女性角色。

Like, it is what we used to do in noir where we would have a woman who very actively made a decision to, like, free herself from a certain kind of, like, influence or oppression.

我觉得过去我们在故事里对这种设定接受度很高。

And I feel like we used to be really okay with that in stories.

但在这种被我称为'母亲惊悚片'的子类型中，我们反而不太能接受了。

And then in this sort of, like, subgenre, which I have, like, called the mother thriller, like, we're not as okay with it.

比如我们会把它变成意外，或是发生悲剧后所有人都活在阴影里。

Like, we make it an accident or something tragically happens and then everyone's living with the downfall.

所以不，我们并不是在提倡这种行为。

So no, like we're not advocating.

但我们想说，这样的情节发展在故事层面上确实非常令人满足。

But we are saying like there is something very like plot wise satisfying with how this plays out.

看到莎拉·斯努克演绎这个时刻特别过瘾，因为这是个精心策划的全盘计划。

Very satisfying to see Sarah Snook play this moment because it's like a whole intentional plan.

她特意吃大豆类食物，因为那正是他过敏的东西。

She specifically eats like soy based food because that's what he is allergic to.

然后她给了他一个极其刻意的吻，就像在说：看，我又变回你温顺的妻子了。

And then she has this very deliberate kiss that she gives him because she's like, no, I'm back to being your obedient wife.

没错。

Yep.

死亡之吻。

Kiss of death.

是啊。

Yeah.

死亡之吻。

Kiss of death.

确实如此。

Exactly.

因此我认为，这同时也给了莎拉·斯努克——我们知道她在《继承之战》和《道林·格雷》之间是位极具实力的演员——在最后几集中提供了真正丰富的情感层次来演绎，而前期则主要聚焦于她的担忧、困惑和焦虑。

And so I think that like, it also gives Sarah Snook, who we know is such a capable actor between like Succession and Dorian Gray, it gives her like a real emotional range of things to play in the last few episodes after it's very front loaded with like her concern, her confusion, her anxiety.

到了结尾部分，你能感受到一种不同的动机。

You get like a different motivation toward the end.

是啊。

Yeah.

这让剧集呈现出一种不同的氛围。

It gives the episodes a different feel Yeah.

这在流媒体电视剧中并不常见。

Which is not something you get all the time in streaming TV.

所以从某种角度来说也是一种解脱。

So it's also a relief in that way.

我也想对饰演彼得兄弟和妹妹的两位演员丹尼尔·蒙克斯和艾比·埃利奥特说几句好话。

I would also say a kind word about both of the actors who play Peter's brother and sister, Daniel Monks and Abby Elliott.

我之前稍微提到了关于坐轮椅的哥哥的故事，那是一场童年事故。

I alluded a little bit to the story about the brother who uses a wheelchair, and there was a childhood accident.

但结果发现他们一直把责任归咎于妹妹，而实际上当然是彼得的错，因为彼得太糟糕了。

But it turns out they've been blaming the sister for the entire time, and, of course, it was Peter because Peter's terrible.

我觉得艾比·埃利奥特饰演的妹妹角色很有趣——她在《熊》里演妹妹，在这部剧里也演妹妹，但两个角色截然不同。

I think the sister I think the Abby Elliott character and I'm so interested in the fact that she's the sister on the bear, and she's the sister in this, and they're really different.

她几乎占据了两个对立的位置。

She occupies almost opposite spaces.

对吧？

Right?

一个是最具养育性的人，另一个则被视作最需要关爱的人。

The most nurturing person versus the most perceived as needy person.

她在家庭中被塑造成这样的成长轨迹。

She's kind of cast in the family as this grew up.

你刚结束康复治疗。

You had just gotten out of rehab.

那里

There

就是这样。

it is.

而且这不会是你第一次复吸。

And it wouldn't be the first time you had relapsed.

对吧，莉娅？

Right, Leah?

我认为这部剧最终承认了这种认知有多少是被我们的历史理解所构建的，以及人们不断评论和讲述的那些塑造家庭叙事的话语——那些他们自己接受并希望他人也接受的叙事。

And I think the show really comes around to acknowledging how much of how much of that can be manufactured, basically, by our understanding of history and by how people constantly comment and sort of say things that build the narrative of the family that they accept and that they want other people to accept.

彼得死后，我非常欣赏他们处理这个角色的方式——几乎让她一直处于这种矛盾情绪中。

And after Peter dies, I so appreciated the way that they basically let her character sit in this ambivalence almost.

他是她的哥哥。

He was her brother.

我不认为她会杀了他，但那时她已经逐渐意识到他对她生活造成的极具破坏性的影响。

I don't think she would have killed him, But she's come by then to understand the really destructive effects that he's had on her life.

期待某人受到惩罚，这让我们感到愉悦。

Anticipating someone being punished, that makes us feel good.

我们可以专注于他们的痛苦

We get to focus on their pain

而非我们自己的。

instead of our own.

她的表演极具张力，我不断回想起某些表情细节——比如在最后一集里，当她拼凑出事件真相时，当她意识到没有彼得在背后操纵后自己将面对的生活时那些微表情。

She turns in a really strong performance, and I keep thinking about, like, certain facial expressions that she makes, like, in that final episode when she puts together what has happened, when she puts together what is now going to be of her life without Peter sort of over her shoulder manipulating things.

我认为这部分处理得非常出色。

I think that's really well done.

我们一直在讨论这些情节有多么荒诞却又令人满足地荒诞。

I also think that we're talking a lot about like how absurd, satisfyingly absurd some of this stuff is.

但有个场景始终萦绕在我脑海：达科塔·范宁饰演的珍妮发现她丈夫在停车场里摆弄手机或干着什么勾当的时候。

But there is this like frame that I keep thinking about which is when Dakota Fanning's character Jenny finds her husband who is like in this parking lot like screwing around on his phone or doing whatever.

画面中两辆车就这样正对着，而且还有一点——有时候这类剧集看起来导演手法并不特别出色，但我觉得这部剧从演员表演到剧情转折，再到干净利落的导演风格，各方面都很到位。

And the frame is just the two cars like directly like, facing each And there's something also just about, like, sometimes these shows can feel not super well directed, whereas I think, like, a lot of different elements here from the performances to, like, the twistiness of the narrative to just how, like, clean and effectively directed it is.

我觉得确实如此。

I think it's just Yeah.

它和我们以往在这类题材中看到的很不一样，我很欣赏所有这些不同之处。

It feels different from what we've come to expect in this genre, and I appreciated all of those differences.

我也认为好的导演确实能带来更多视觉趣味，就像你说的那样。

I do think that good direction brings a little bit more visual interest in exactly the way that you're saying.

我觉得有很多镜头都采用了前景一人、背景另一人的构图方式。

I think there are a number of shots that show one person in foreground, another person in the background.

虽然这种手法很常见，但我觉得他们运用得非常好。

Obviously, something that's frequently done, but I think I think they have a very nice sense of it.

不过说到这部剧，我不得不提一个让我相当不满的地方。

Now I do feel like I cannot stop talking about this show without mentioning my one beef, my one pretty significant beef with this show.

我们的同事兼朋友凯瑟琳·范·阿登克在《Vulture》杂志上发表过一篇文章（我们录制时刚发表），讲的是倒数第二集那个闪回——就在故事即将迎来高潮和结局前，突然跳回去讲述这一切最初是如何发生的。

Your colleague and our friend, Katherine Van Arndonk, as we record this, recently had a piece published in Vulture about the penultimate episode flashback, where right before you're about to get to the big moments and wrap up your story, they say, well, let's jump all the way back and talk about how this all happened in the first place.

这简直太扫兴了。

And it's like, it's such a buzz kill.

这个决定太糟糕了，我们就按顺序讲故事吧。

It's such a bad decision, and let's just tell things in order.

这就是我的提议。

That's my proposal.

是啊。

Yeah.

我不反对。

I don't disagree.

在流媒体时代这种感觉更强烈，因为你真的想吸引观众一口气刷完你的剧。

It feels exacerbated in the time of streaming where you're really trying to, like, capture someone to binge your show.

她的错就是让人刷剧上瘾。

All her fault was a binge.

对吧？

Right?

所以他们希望我们在一个集中的时间段内看完所有八集或类似的内容。

So they want us to watch all eight of them or whatever in a consolidated time frame.

所以没错，我们绝对会以这具尸体作为开场，然后闪回或是在倒数第二集进行闪回。

So, yeah, we're absolutely getting these dead body to start the show and then flashback or penultimate episode flashback.

从结构上看，你就是不能这样做，或者你可以把闪回部分挪到其他位置。

And structurally, it's just like, you cannot do this or you can just like move the flashback around.

比如不一定非要放在倒数第二集。

Like it doesn't need to be the penultimate.

如果你真觉得这是必须告诉我们的内容，可以在第三集就埋下伏笔。

Like if you really feel like this is something that you have to tell us, seed it in like the third episode.

我也不知道。

I don't know.

第五集也行。

The fifth episode.

这样就不会像放在结局前那样打断剧情节奏。

So that it doesn't interrupt the momentum in the same way as it does if you put it right before the conclusion.

在这部剧中，我要说的是，他们揭露了许多来自过去的信息，而且很多都没有使用闪回手法。

And I will say in this show, they reveal a lot of information that is from the past, and they do a lot of it without flashbacks.

对吧？

Right?

其中一些情节确实用了闪回，但有些信息只是通过角色间的争吵自然流露出来。

There's flashbacks to some of it, but some of it just comes out in fights that people are having.

完全可以这样处理。

You can do that.

这就是剧本创作的一部分——让信息逐渐浮出水面。

That's part of writing to have information come to light.

不过总体而言，我认为这部剧非常出色，比我初次观看时的评价更高，当时我还觉得这不过是《大小谎言》的翻版。

On balance, though, I think this is a really good show, and I think it's a better show than I when I first watched it, and I was like, oh, this is big little lies.

觉得它不过如此。

This is blah blah blah.

但当我深入思考后，特别是看到你关于'Missandrus杰作'的标题时，我立刻意识到这个评价确实中肯。

The more I thought about it, and as soon as I saw your headline about the Missandrus masterpiece, I was like, that is true.

是的。

Yeah.

尽管我觉得剧情有些老套，但它对这些糟糕丈夫的刻画确实一针见血。

For all that I felt that it was a little bit familiar, it is really incisive when it comes to these terrible husbands.

我认为它在熟悉的主题框架下展现了深思熟虑，用不同方式探讨了我们常轻率提及的问题。

I think it is really thoughtful within sort of like familiar themes and finding different ways to explore some things that we say like flippantly.

对吧？

Right?

比如丈夫占妻子便宜这类事。

Like husbands, like take advantage of their wives or whatever.

就像我们常拿来开玩笑的那些文化陈词滥调。

Like, these sort of like cultural sort of like truisms that we make jokes about.

我觉得这部剧找到了新的探讨角度，彻底揭露了这些现象的肮脏本质。

I think the show found a new way to explore that and to like read it for filth.

对吧？

Right?

而且它非常有趣。

And it was just very entertaining.

我就是想找点乐子，老兄。

I wanna be entertained, man.

这才是电视的意义所在。

That's the point of television.

所以，是的，我也可以说我感到惊喜。

So, yeah, I also was pleasantly surprised, I would say.

我完全同意，而且我爱死莎拉·斯努克了。

I absolutely was, and I love Sarah Snook.

演技精湛，丈夫糟糕。

So good acting and terrible husbands.

好吧。

Alright.

我们想知道你对《她的错》这部剧的看法。

Well, we wanna know what you think about all her fault.

在facebook.com/pchh上找到我们。

Find us at facebook.com/pchh.

我们的节目到此结束。

That brings us to the end of our show.

Roxanna Haddati，与你合作总是很愉快。

Roxanna Haddati, it is always a pleasure.

感谢你的参与。

Thank you for being here.

非常感谢邀请我。

Thank you so much for having me.

提醒一下，订阅《流行文化欢乐时光+》是支持我们节目和公共广播的好方法，还能无广告收听所有剧集。

And just a reminder that signing up for pop culture happy hour plus is a great way to support our show and public radio, and you get to listen to all of our episodes sponsor free.

请前往+.npr.org/happyhour了解更多，或查看节目说明中的链接。

So please go find out more at +.npr.org/happyhour or visit the link in our show notes.

本期节目由Liz Metzger、Kayla Latimore和Mike Katsef制作，由节目统筹Jessica Reedy编辑。

This episode is produced by Liz Metzger, Kayla Latimore, and Mike Katsef, and it was edited by our showrunner, Jessica Reedy.

Hello, Come In 为我们提供了主题音乐。

Hello, Come In provides our theme music.

感谢收听NPR的《流行文化欢乐时光》。

Thank you for listening to pop culture happy hour from NPR.

我是琳达·霍姆斯，我们下次再见。

I'm Linda Holmes, and we will see you all next time.

互联网让任何人都能将创意转化为收入，而数百万人正在尝试。

The Internet made it possible for anyone to turn creativity into income, and millions are trying.

但当我们的思想、语言乃至文化都被可货币化的事物所塑造时，会发生什么？

But what happens when our ideas, our language, even our culture are shaped by what's monetizable?

本周，TED广播时间将探讨创作者经济的崛起，以及AI等新技术如何定义我们未来的价值取向。

This week, TED Radio Hour explores the rise of the creator economy and how new tech like AI could define what we value next.

请在NPR应用或您获取播客的任何平台收听。

Listen on the NPR app or wherever you get your pie.

在NPR的Wildcard播客中，Suleika Jawad回忆了二十多岁接受癌症治疗期间结识的朋友们相继离世的经历。

On NPR's wildcard podcast, Suleika Jawad reflects on losing friends she met while getting treated for cancer in her twenties.