怪奇物语

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好了，结束了。

Well, it's over.

经过五季、近十年的时光，《怪奇物语》的故事终于迎来了终点。

After five seasons and almost ten years, the saga of stranger things has reached its end.

在Netflix于除夕夜发布的两小时大结局中，我们得知了英雄们出发对抗邪恶势力后发生了什么。

In a two hour finale that Netflix dropped on New Year's Eve, we found out what happened to our heroes when they set out to battle the forces of evil.

最终季不仅有新角色和新揭秘，也展现了我们自威尔·拜尔斯失踪那晚以来一直熟知并深爱的这群人之间的友情与冲突。

The final season had new faces and new revelations along with moments of friendship and conflict among the folks we've known and loved since the night Will Byers first disappeared.

我是琳达·霍姆斯，今天我们在NPR的流行文化快乐时光节目中讨论《怪奇物语》最后一季。

I'm Linda Holmes, and today we're talking about the final season of stranger things on pop culture happy hour from NPR.

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今天与我一同讨论的是埃里克·德格恩斯。

Joining me today is Eric Deggans.

他是NPR的特约评论员，同时也是华盛顿与李大学新闻与媒体伦理学的奈特讲席教授。

He's a critic at large at NPR and also the knight chair of journalism and media ethics at Washington and Lee University.

你好，埃里克。

Hello, Eric.

你好。

Hello.

你好。

Hello.

你好。

Hello.

今天我们还邀请了罗纳德·杨 Jr。

Also with us is Ronald Young Junior.

他是播客《离开影院》的主持人，该节目专注于电影与电视评论。

He's the host of the Film and Television Review podcast, Leaving the Theater.

你好，罗纳德。

Hello, Ronald.

你好，琳达。

Hello, Linda.

好吧。

Alright.

我不会试图总结《怪奇物语》的整个故事。

I am not going to try to sum up the entire story of Stranger Things.

我假设你们已经了解基本情节。

I'm going to assume that you know the basics.

我还要说明，因为我们讨论的是第五季，你们会听到关于整个季度的内容。

I will also mention that because we are talking about the season, you should assume you will hear about the whole season.

所以，这是你的剧透警告。

So this is your spoiler warning.

第五季开始时，那个名为维克纳的怪物在霍金斯镇制造了混乱后消失了。

As season five started, the monstrous creature known as Vecna has disappeared after wreaking havoc on the town of Hawkins.

不仅我们的英雄团队无法弄清楚如何杀死他，甚至都不知道他在哪里。

And not only could our gang of heroes not figure out how to kill him, they didn't even know where he was.

事情本已够黑暗了，而维克纳还绑架了迈克的小妹妹霍莉，以及一群其他孩子，把他们带去进行某种仪式，试图将一个名为深渊的平行维度——是的，这与颠倒世界不同——与地球融合并摧毁它。

As if things weren't dark enough, Vecna snatched Mike's little sister, Holly, along with a bunch of other kids and spirited them away to use them in some kind of ritual to merge an alternate dimension called the abyss, which, yes, is different from the Upside Down with Earth and destroy it.

但等等。

But wait.

还有麦克斯的昏迷、威尔对自己性取向的困扰、达斯汀和史蒂夫之间的裂痕，以及其他一大堆问题。

There were also the problems of Max's coma, Will's angst over his sexuality, the rift between Dustin and Steve, and a bunch of other stuff.

因此，挑战在于不仅要救出所有孩子，还要解决这些问题。

So the challenge was to rescue all the kids and also solve all those problems.

最终，在大结局中，当然发生了一场在深渊中进行的最终决战。

In the end, in the finale, there was, of course, a final battle that took place in the abyss.

英雄们获胜了，维克纳失败了，而艾琳为了阻止政府利用她的血液制造更多超自然孩子，牺牲了自己。

The heroes won, Vecna lost, and Eleven sacrificed herself so that the government could not use her blood to make more supernatural children.

随后是一个非常漫长的尾声，不仅揭示了所有人都过上了幸福的生活，还暗示艾琳可能并没有死。

Then there was a very long epilogue revealing not only that everybody else lived happily ever after, but also that it's possible Eleven is not dead.

她只是去背包旅行了。

She is just backpacking.

完。

The end.

那我先从你开始，罗纳德。

So I'm gonna start with you, Ronald.

你对《怪奇物语》这一季有什么感受？

How did you feel about this final season of Stranger Things?

我认为《怪奇物语》第三季和第四季是奈飞迄今为止最出色的作品之一。

So I think that season three and season four of Stranger Things was some of the best work that Netflix has done.

我非常享受这两个季度。

I've really enjoyed both of those seasons a lot.

尤其是第四季的结局，我特别喜欢。

And especially where it ended with season four, really enjoyed that.

但第五季一开始时，感觉我们又回到了起点，这让我有点困惑。

So it was a little disconcerting when season five starts, and it felt like we went back to the beginning.

我以为我们会直接进入高潮，结果并没有。

I thought we were gonna start right in the action, and we didn't.

我坚持看完了。

I stuck with it.

我觉得每天放出的每一集整体上都相当不错。

I felt like all the tranches of episode that came out on each day, they all were totally well for the most part.

它们大致上保持了平衡，我认为它们尽了最大的努力，或者说提供了它们能给出的最佳内容。

They kinda were balanced, they kind of did the best that they could, I thought, or the best that they could offer, I would say.

但到了结尾时，我感觉整个这一季更像是在向《怪奇物语》这部剧告别，而不是很好地收尾故事。

But when it got to the end, it felt like this whole season was more about saying goodbye to Stranger Things the show than it was about closing out the story well.

嗯。

Mhmm.

我认为他们很好地向《怪奇物语》这部剧告别了，但我不确定故事的收尾是否如我所愿般完美。

And I think they said goodbye to Stranger Things, the show, very well, but I don't know that they closed out the story as well as I would have liked.

所以我处于中间立场。

So I'm kind of right in the middle.

是的。

Yeah.

我明白。

I get that.

你呢，埃里克？

How about you, Eric?

你怎么看？

What did you think?

是的。

Yeah.

我觉得这个分析非常贴切。

I think that analysis is pretty apt.

我对《怪奇物语》的感觉是，这部剧有很多非常出色的部分。

My sense of Stranger Things is that there's a lot of elements of this show that really work.

他们打造了一个默契十足的演员阵容，无论他们做什么，看着他们互动都是一种享受。

They have crafted this ensemble of actors who really click, And it's a pleasure to watch them bounce off of each other no matter what they're doing.

还有他们为一些角色营造出的壮观感。

And the sense of spectacle that they have created with some of these characters.

你知道吗，Vecna的样子以及那些特效，嗯。

You know, the way Vecna looks and the special effects and Mhmm.

当我们终于看到脑魔的真面目时，所有这些特效都非常令人印象深刻。

When we finally get to see what the Mind Flayer looks like, you know, the special effects of all of that is very impressive.

但正如你之前所说，实际的情节——把这一切串联起来的部分——是它最薄弱的地方。

But as you said earlier, the actual storyline, you know, sort of connecting all this together was the weakest part of it.

嗯。

Mhmm.

我之前就说过，我觉得这部剧开始一遍又一遍地重复同样的故事。

And I've said before that I felt like the series has started to keep telling the same story over and over and over again.

所以作为观众，我在事情发生之前就知道会发生什么。

So as a viewer, I know what's gonna happen before it actually happens.

嗯。

Yeah.

而随着他们所对抗的情境变得越来越复杂，这一切也变得越来越离谱。

And by getting more and more elaborate in the circumstances that they're fighting against, it also becomes more and more outlandish.

是的。

Yeah.

而且，越来越难以相信，这群机灵的孩子，再加上几个看似有点脑子的成年人，竟然能阻止这场企图碰撞世界、毁灭整个地球的巨大阴谋。

And it becomes harder and harder to believe that this plucky band of kids, aided with just a couple of adults who seem to have a brain in their head, are staving off this gigantic conspiracy to collide worlds and destroy the entire Earth.

是的。

Yeah.

真的吗？

It's like, really?

是的。

Yeah.

除此之外，我最想批评他们的一点，就是浪费了琳达·汉密尔顿。

And on top of all of that, the one thing that I really will ding them for is wasting Linda Hamilton.

是的。

Yes.

嗯。

Mhmm.

她为什么在那里？

Why was she there?

当他们第一次引入她时，看起来天啊，这会是个很棒的角色。

When they first introduced her, it seemed like, oh, man, this is gonna be a great character.

会非常酷。

Be really cool.

是啊。

Yeah.

当她与霍珀对峙，你们知道的，他们发生了争斗，那部分很棒。

And then when she confronted Hopper, you know, and they had their fight, that was great.

然后就没了。

And then nothing.

在整部剧的其余部分，她都来晚了，还差一口气。

She was a day late and a dollar short for the rest of the series.

是啊。

Yeah.

可能是任何人。

Could have been anybody.

他们把她变成了一个卡通人物。

They turned her into a cartoon character.

所以

So

嗯。

Yeah.

我还有另一个关于她的想法，她是负责在颠倒世界里那个实验室的军方负责人，他们在那里进行各种实验。

I have another thought about her too, which is so she's the military honcho who's running kind of the lab inside the Upside Down where they're running all these experiments, and they're, you know, doing all this stuff.

她的名字是K博士。

Her name is doctor k.

所以发生了一场大规模的战斗。

So there's this big giant battle.

然后他们都通过传送门回到了现实世界，结果发现军队在那里等着他们。

Then they all go back to the real world through the gate or whatever it is, And then they find that the military is waiting there.

所以现在我们的所有英雄都被一群暴力的恶棍控制了。

So now all of our heroes are in the custody of a bunch of violent goons.

然后就是关于十一的那些事，至少看起来她已经死了。

And then you have all the business with Eleven, and she appears at least to have died.

然后时间跳到了十八个月后。

And then it's eighteen months later.

我当时有一部分想法是：等等，不对。

And there was part of me that was like, wait a minute.

等等，不对。

Wait a minute.

是啊。

Yeah.

十一之后，那些暴力的恶棍对这些人做了什么？

What did all the violent goons do with these people after eleven?

好问题。

Good question.

他们就这么说，我们给你叫个出租车吧。

Were they just like, we'll call you a taxi.

你可以回家了。

You can go home.

你什么都知道了，关于我们政府的实验。

You know all about our government experiments.

霍珀，你杀了一堆士兵，但这些都过去了，你知道的。

Hopper, you killed a bunch of soldiers, but it's all, you know, bygones.

咱们大家都回家吧。

Let's just everybody go home.

我们就当从来没发生过。

We just won't ever talk about it.

嗯。

Mhmm.

但你们都可以活下来。

But you guys can all live.

对吧？

Right?

对我来说，这正是他们想要达到某些关键场景的例子。

And to me, that was an example of how they wanted, I think, to get to certain big moments.

他们想达到那场战斗，而我觉得那场战斗非常酷。

They wanted to get to that fight, which I actually thought the fight was very cool.

我非常享受最终的那场战斗。

I enjoyed the final fight quite a lot.

我很喜欢南希，她打扮得完全像《异形》里的里普利。

I enjoyed Nancy very much made up to look like Ripley from aliens.

我知道。

I know.

是啊。

Yeah.

我喜欢她逐渐成长为那种大英雄的感觉。

Enjoyed her kind of stepping into being, like, the big hero.

很喜欢那些部分。

Enjoyed a lot of that stuff.

但他们想达到那个高潮时刻。

But they wanted to get to that big moment.

他们想达到伊莱文牺牲的这个重大时刻。

They wanted to get to this big moment of Eleven's sacrifice.

他们想达到这些特定的情节。

They wanted to get to, you know, these certain things.

但我不一定觉得这正是你们之前提到的那样。

But I don't necessarily think this is kinda what you guys have said too.

我不觉得这个故事整体上讲得那么连贯。

I don't necessarily think that it holds together that well as a story.

而且，埃里克提到过这一点，但随着世界观越来越复杂，我真的不明白为什么在颠倒世界之外还需要深渊。

And, you know, Eric sort of made mention of this, but as it sort of got more and more convoluted in terms of the lore, I did not really understand why we needed the abyss on top of the Upside Down.

为什么这一切不能就发生在颠倒世界里呢？

Like, why couldn't this all just happen in the Upside Down?

就像，快到剧集结尾时，突然冒出一个全新的地方，这到底有什么必要？

Like, what is the need to, very close to the end of the series, be like, okay, whole new place to go?

我觉得这有点牵强。

And it felt to me a little bit grasping.

是啊。

Yeah.

我还得说一下，我不喜欢那个结局，他们说‘由你决定会发生什么’。

And I also have to go on record as not a fan of the ending where they say, you decide what happens.

我也不喜欢那样。

I don't like that either.

是啊。

Yeah.

这是在敷衍了事。

It's a cop out.

成功的模糊结局是存在的。

There can be successful ambiguous endings.

别误会。

Do not get me wrong.

确实有一些成功的模糊结局。

There absolutely are successful ambiguous endings.

但也有一些结局感觉只是不想得罪粉丝群体中的任何人。

But there are also ones that feel like they don't want to bother anybody in the fan base.

所以我的感觉是，他们隐约意识到，在这样的战斗中，通常会有一些损失。

So my feeling is that they sort of sense that in a battle like this, there's often some loss.

这类战斗往往都会付出某种代价。

There's often some kind of cost to these battles.

因此，他们本想让十一做出这种牺牲，但又知道大家会非常生气。

And so it feels like they wanted Eleven to make this sacrifice, but they knew everybody would be really mad.

于是他们给了你一个‘你来决定’的选项。

So they sort of give you this, you decide.

也许她还活着。

Maybe she's alive.

而且，你知道，这并不是我最喜欢的结局方式。

And, you know, it's not my favorite way to do a finale.

我觉得，作为讲故事的人，你有责任决定发生了什么，而不是给观众两个门让他们自己选。

I sort of feel like, as the storyteller, it's your responsibility to decide what happened and not to sort of give people two doors to walk through.

这对我来说没有吸引力。

That does not appeal to me.

我不喜欢这样。

I did not like that.

我还要指出，粉丝们之前曾广泛猜测会有不少人死亡。

I will also point out there had been a lot of speculation among fans that several people would be killed.

所以我认为他们也在往那个方向靠拢。

So I think they were also fainting towards that.

在整个过程中，-ASHLEY：

Through the entire, -ASHLEY:

你知道，两小时的结局中，他们一直在暗示可能会有重大角色死亡。

you know, two hour finale, they were fainting towards, you know, major deaths.

你知道，史蒂夫差点

You know, Steve almost

是的。

Yes.

而且，也许他们觉得必须死一个人。

-And also, maybe there was a sense that they had to have a death.

所以他们间接地杀死了十一号。

So they sorta killed Eleven.

我的意思是，

I mean,

第一，模糊性。

one, ambiguity.

当处理得当的时候，就像《盗梦空间》，电影结尾陀螺还在旋转，我们可以争论他到底是在梦境中还是现实里。

When it's done well, it's Inception, where the top is spinning at the end of the film and we could debate over whether he's at the dream world or not.

我认为，如果你要这么做，这才是正确的方式，这样我们才能真正深入探讨。

I thought that was the way that you do it if you're gonna do it so we could really, really get into it.

在这部剧中，我觉得十一已经明确没有死。

In this one, I felt like it was settled that Eleven is not dead.

我这么说是因为，如果这本意是要制造悬念，而结果却如此，那我觉得他们并没有很好地传达出她是死是活的信息。

And I only say that to say, if this was supposed to be ambiguous and this is how it turns out, then I don't think they did a very good job of saying dead or alive.

他们甚至没有真正打算制造悬念。

Like, they didn't even commit to it being ambiguous.

感觉他们所有人都红了眼眶，而迈克几乎在结尾直接说她还活着，这让我觉得挺沮丧的，因为这确实像是一种双重逃避。

It kinda felt like they all got tears in their eyes, and Mike's like, she's alive, basically, towards the end, which was kinda frustrating to me because it does feel like a double cop out, if you will.

是的。

Yeah.

我觉得《怪奇物语》的结局本可以有人死去，因为这样才会让危险显得真实。

I feel like people could have died at the end of stranger things because it makes the stakes actually seem real.

整部剧集里，他们只是不断引入新角色然后杀死他们，却从未让核心角色中有人真正死去。

Throughout the duration of the show, all they did was introduce new characters and then kill them instead of killing anyone in the core characters.

是的。

Yeah.

但即便如此，结尾他们还是给了每个人一个尾声，这让我觉得太疯狂了。

And yet and still at the end of this, they give everybody an epilogue, which to me felt wild.

我觉得，他们在这里更注重粉丝和粉丝服务，而不是把故事讲好。

I think that's where I feel like they were really committed to the fans and to fan service more than they were to ending the story well.

那个尾声太长了。

That epilogue was so long.

我完全无法感同身受。

I couldn't relate.

我暂停了Netflix，想看看还剩多少时间。

I stopped the Netflix to see how much time there was left.

天啊。

Dang.

是的。

Yes.

他们还用了时间跳跃。

And they did the time job.

长达四十分钟。

It was forty minutes.

我是在它上线时立刻看的。

I watched it right when it dropped.

所以我八点就打开了，知道它本应是两小时八九分钟。

So I turned it on at eight, and I knew it was supposed to be two hours and eight or nine minutes.

我看着手表，心想：等等。

And I'm looking at my watch like, wait a minute.

现在是九点半了，但这部剧好像已经结束了。

It's 09:30, and this appears to be over.

我坐在那儿想，难道最后半小时是演员访谈吗？

What in the world are and I was sitting there thinking, like, is this gonna be, like, cast interviews for the last half an hour?

然后他们放出了这个结局，我心想：你们别逗我了。

And then they go to this epilogue, and I was like, you guys, you have gotta be kidding me.

是的。

And Yes.

这部附录中有几部分我觉得做得很好。

There were parts of the epilogue that I thought worked well.

我觉得桌游部分做得特别棒。

I think the D and D game worked really well.

不过，琳达，那本来就应该结束了。

That should've been it, though, Linda.

那本来就应该是一整部剧的结尾。

That should've been the whole thing.

那就是我会用来做附录的内容。

That's what I would have made the epilogue.

我觉得那非常温馨。

I thought that was very sweet.

我觉得这是个很好的闭环方式。

I thought it was a good way to come full circle.

但其他那些部分，比如我根本不需要看到每个人高中毕业的场景。

But all the other, like, I don't need to see absolutely everybody graduating from high school.

我只是觉得，除此之外，我不需要再加这些了。

I just didn't need that on top of everything else.

而且，对我来说，这感觉就像所有人都现在很好了。

Plus, to me, it was a little bit like everybody's fine now.

就像，嗯，是啊。

Like Yeah.

经历了这么多创伤，居然说所有人都现在很好了。

That's an awful lot of trauma has trauma.

居然说所有人都现在很好了。

To be to be like, everybody's fine now.

我还得说一句，我尽量不严厉批评他们，但这也给了更多机会展示一些更糟糕的假发。

And and I'm also must say, and I try not to come down hard on them about this, but, like, it also gave another opportunity for several more terrible wigs.

是的。

Yes.

这部剧里有些假发真是太差了，天哪。

Some of the bad wigs on this show, man.

我发现这很分散注意力，但感觉这是多余的，因为这一切都源于此，尤其是史蒂夫和乔纳森与四个年长孩子在屋顶上的那场戏。

And I did find it distracting, but it felt like it was unnecessary because it was all coming out of this, particularly the rooftop scene with the four older kids with, Steve and Jonathan.

没必要。

No need for it.

首先，我觉得乔纳森这个角色太无聊了。

First of I just think Jonathan is such a boring character.

天啊。

Oh my gosh.

她太无聊了。

She's so boring.

我觉得本季另一个问题在于，有些角色他们一直把握得很好，比如达斯汀。

I think my other issue with this season was I think there are characters that they continued to have a really good handle on, like Dustin

嗯。

Mhmm.

还有史蒂夫。

And Steve.

我觉得还有一些角色，他们已经失去了对他们的把握。

And I think there are characters that they lost the handle on.

我对迈克也有这种感觉。

And I feel that way about Mike.

是的。

Yes.

在某种程度上，我对十一也有这种感觉。

I even feel that way a little bit about Eleven in some ways.

是的。

Yes.

她从一个天真无邪的小孩成长为一个女人，我觉得他们在为她写剧本时失去了分寸。

She grew from this wide eyed little kid to this woman, I kinda feel like they lost the handle on writing for her.

没错。

Yeah.

我觉得最后，有些角色依然成立，但其他角色在剧集结尾时真的完全撑不起剧情了。

I felt in the end, like, some characters still worked, but other characters really, really were not kind of weight bearing by the end of the series.

霍珀。

Hopper.

霍珀是另一个例子，你说得对，他们在后期确实失去了对他的把握。

Hopper's another one that you're right that they lost their handle on towards the end.

因为即使到了最后，当他向乔伊斯求婚时，我还记得当时在想：你这一季到底在干什么？

Because even by the end, when you get to the point where he's proposing to Joyce, I remember thinking, what were you doing this season?

你为什么在这里？

Like, why were you here?

所以我觉得这成了一个常见的疑问。

So I felt like that was like a common refrain.

好吧，你知道，再次回到这个不断重复同一个故事的想法，他因失去亲生女儿而产生的创伤，以及他试图对十一做些不同的事，这个故事他们一再重复，这成了他在最后几集中的核心主题。

Well, you know, again, in this idea of telling the same story over and over and over again, you know, his trauma over losing his biological daughter and him trying to do different with Eleven is a story they kept telling over and over and over And that was his note during these final run of episodes.

他和十一之间产生冲突，因为他总是过度保护，而十一则试图独立自主。

You know, him and Eleven coming into conflict because he was constantly overprotective and she was trying to step out on her own.

但我们已经看过了这些情节。

And we've already seen this.

他们以前几季已经演得更好了。

They've already played it better in previous seasons.

是的。

Yeah.

所以，再次觉得，让两位我们都知道非常出色的演员浪费了。

So, again, it felt like a bit of a waste of two actors that we know are really good.

是的。

Yeah.

而且这也引出了一个问题，我认为，当你谈到一遍又一遍地讲同一个故事时。

Well and it also opens the question, I think, when you talk about telling the same story over and over again.

当他们把妹妹找回来，把科莉带回来的时候，我想，第一次看的时候，可能没人真的喜欢她。

When they brought back the sister, when they brought back Collie, I was like, I don't think anybody enjoyed her the first time necessarily.

我不确定他们为什么要让这个角色回归。

I'm not sure why they're bringing this character back.

但到了最后，在大结局时，我想，哦，他们把她找回来，只是为了让一个对谁都不重要的人在大结局中死去。

But then by the end, in the finale, I was like, oh, they brought her back so that somebody who doesn't mean very much to anybody could die during the finale.

是的。

Yes.

为了营造一种失落感，让人觉得‘哦，是的’。

To give it that sense of, like, a loss that people will be like, oh, yes.

发生了一些悲伤的事。

Something sad happened.

有人死了。

Someone died.

但这并不会真正算数或有什么意义。

But it won't really count or mean anything.

因为正如罗纳德之前说的，他们会引入新角色，而这些角色可能会死。

Because as I think Ronald was saying earlier, they bring on new characters, and those characters can die.

比利，埃迪，死了。

Billy, Eddie, dead.

没错。

Exactly.

还有，鲍勃。

And, Bob.

鲍勃。

Bob.

对。

Right.

我不希望让人觉得我是个嗜血的人，希望他们杀死一堆孩子。

I don't wanna make it sound like I was bloodthirsty and wanted them to kill a bunch of kids.

这完全不是我的意思。

That's not what I'm saying at all.

我只是觉得，整件事对我来说就像一种试图两头讨好的练习，总是如此。

I'm just saying the whole thing felt to me like an exercise in trying to have it both ways and always.

至于那个尾声，老实说，我觉得它像是《加州中部》第九季第二十一集。

And that epilogue, to me, honestly, felt like a nine zero two one o episode.

那些场景中他们说的很多东西都太过陈词滥调、老套了。

It was sort of so cliched and so trite, all the stuff that they were saying in some of those scenes.

对我来说，它根本不像同一部剧了。

It just didn't feel like the same show to me.

好的。

Okay.

我打算提出一个大胆的想法，你帮我看看我是不是想得太快了。

I'm gonna attempt a a big idea here, and you let me know if I'm getting ahead of my skis on this one.

我早就同意了。

I already agree.

不管是什么。

Whatever it is.

《怪奇物语》整个系列的发展过程，在我看来，正是流媒体本身的真正写照。

So Stranger Things and its whole evolution as a series feels to me like a real analogy for streaming itself.

我回去重看了第一季的前几集。

I went back and I watched the first few episodes of the first season.

我也看了。

I did too.

这真是个很棒、很基础的嗯。

And it's such a cool, basic Mhmm.

一个简单的故事，主角是一群你完全不了解的年轻孩子，但他们却非常吸引人。

Simple story with these young kids who you have no idea who they are, but they're compelling.

嗯。

Mhmm.

嗯。

Mhmm.

那种怀旧感，你知道的，全都体现在那里了。

And the nostalgia and, you know, like, it's all there.

而当它逐渐变得更大、更复杂、技术上更雄心勃勃、更注重视觉奇观、情节更紧张时，它却 somehow 失去了那种最初的火花——那种令人惊叹的、真正酷炫且独特的感觉。

And as it becomes this bigger, larger, more involved, more technically ambitious, more spectacle laden death involved thing, it somehow loses that spark, that initial sort of creative, wow, this is really cool and different kind of thing.

它变成了一部令人娱乐、成就斐然的作品，但同时也开始阻碍自己，因为它已经变成了一个庞大到难以驾驭的东西。

And it becomes something that's entertaining and an achievement, but also kind of gets in its own way because it's it's become this big huge thing now.

我的意思是，《怪奇物语》开启了一个全新的流媒体时代。

I mean, Stranger Things brought on this whole new era in streaming.

嗯。

Mhmm.

我认为最初这是一件很棒的事。

And I think initially it was a great thing.

但现在它变得臃肿了，就像流媒体平台一样变得臃肿，并且开始阻碍自身的发展。

But now it's become bloated in the same way that streaming has become kinda bloated and is getting in its own way.

观看这几集对我来说很有趣。

And it was interesting to me to to watch these last few episodes.

我有种感觉，天啊。

I sort of feel like, wow, man.

我觉得我正在见证一个平台的兴衰历程，只不过是以虚构故事的形式呈现。

I feel like I'm seeing the arc of a of a platform, you know, told in a fictional story.

我觉得这很有道理。

I think that makes a lot of sense.

而且我认为，因为我对结局相对失望，这可能会让人觉得我对整部剧都失望了，但其实并不是这样。

And I do think that because I was relatively underwhelmed by the finale, it can make it sound like I was underwhelmed by the show, and that's not really true.

我也同意，当我回头重看部分内容时，有些部分真的非常感人且有趣。

I also agree that when I went back and watched parts of it, parts of it were really moving and fun.

我认为，当他们刚开始制作时，背景设定足够简单，相对容易理解。

And I think when they first started it, what there was of the lore was simple enough that it was relatively easy to follow.

你知道，有一个孩子失踪了。

You know, you had a kid who had disappeared.

你知道，给人一种他身处另一个地方的感觉，他可以给妈妈打电话。

You know, there was a sense that he was kind of in another place, you know, and he could call his mom.

他可以通过阿尔法灯，用圣诞灯来沟通。

He could The alpha lights, you could communicate with Christmas lights.

嗯。

Mhmm.

对。

Yeah.

在这一季中，当他们所有人讨论维克纳时，他们一口气说出了他的多个名字。

And there's a moment in this season where they're all talking about Vecna, and they kind of rattle off his different names.

对吧？

Right?

沃西特先生。

Mister Watsit.

他其实是亨利，也就是维克纳。

He's actually Henry, aka Vecna.

还有人说他是一号。

Somebody else says aka One.

我当时就想，你们可能把这搞得有点太复杂了，因为这些身份一个接一个地出现，简直就像在说：嘿，猜猜看？

I was like, you know, you guys may have made this a little too complicated because more than one of those thing comes as a kind of a, hey, guess what?

这个人其实就是那个人。

This is the same person as this.

到了某个时候，你就想：哦，好吧。

And, like, at some point, it's like, oh, okay.

我们明白了。

We get it.

有这么一个人，他就是那个人。

There's this guy, and he's the guy.

我觉得这个设定变得太复杂了。

And I I do think the lore became too much.

有段时间，我很难搞清楚你的身体在哪里，你的意识又在哪里。

At some point, I had a very difficult time keeping track of, like, so where's your physical body, and where's your mind?

我懂了。

I get it.

求求你别给我发邮件。

I please don't email me.

我懂了。

I get it.

我想我最终理解了这个设定的意图，但对我来说，它变得非常模糊。

I understand, I think, in the end, what the idea was, but I think it got very fuzzy to me.

我肯定杜弗兄弟是明白的。

I'm sure the Duffer brothers understand it.

我敢肯定剧本监督明白，但对我来说，这简直让人困惑，等等。

I'm sure the script supervisor understands it, but it got very much to me like, wait.

对不起。

I'm sorry.

他们现在在哪？

So where are they again?

这些孩子身体被困在脑魔——那个大蜘蛛体内，但他们的意识却在另一个地方，和亨利一起玩耍闲逛。

They're these kids are physically inside the mind flayer, the big spider, but their minds are in this other place frolicking around hanging out with Henry.

但对我来说，这一切最终对这位女士来说变得有点混乱了。

But to me, that all eventually got a little convoluted for this lady.

他们不得不不断停下来解释剧情。

They kept having to stop to explain the plot.

是的。

Yeah.

每一组剧集，都会有人说：好了。

Every set of episodes, someone would be like, okay.

所以事情是这样的，他们会互相解释清楚。

So here's what's happening, and they would explain it to each other.

我记得我当时说：嘿，如果你们得反复解释好几次，那你们肯定哪里出问题了。

And I remember I'm saying, yo, if y'all had to do that more than once, then you're doing something wrong.

我们应该能自然理解。

We should be able to follow.

我也注意到了。

I noticed that too.

每个角色都有一个时刻，像是：让我来告诉你们我的想法。

Every character had their moment of like, so here's what I think.

对。

Yes.

对。

Yes.

嗯。

Yeah.

好的。

Okay.

好的。

Okay.

另一件让我觉得减分的事是，如果你总是不停地告诉我、告诉我、告诉我发生了什么，而不是展示给我看，这就是一种失败。

That's another thing that brings it down a notch for me is if you have to constantly tell me, tell me, tell me, tell me what's going on rather than show me, that is kind of a failure.

是的。

Yes.

当我想到这一点时，是乔纳森救了史蒂夫一命，那时你说了声：好吧。

When I thought about that was when Jonathan saved Steve from dying, and you were like, okay.

所以，这在某种程度上是他们之间的和解。

So here's sort of a reconciliation between these guys.

他们曾因为这个女孩产生分歧，但现在站在了同一边。

They've had this disagreement over this girl, but they're on the same side.

而且，史蒂夫很感激，乔纳森救了他的命。

And, you know, Steve's grateful, and Jonathan saved his life.