泰勒·斯威夫特：舞台女王的人生

我是艾拉·格拉斯。在《美国生活》节目中，我们讲述真实的生活故事，非常精彩的故事。

I'm Ira Glass. On This American Life, we tell real life stories, really good ones.

我母亲说，我很遗憾你当时不在场，因为萨格神父来拜访，他为你找到了一家很好的孤儿院。我说，可我不是孤儿啊。

My mother said, I'm I'm sorry that you weren't here because, father Sager was here visiting, and he found a very nice orphanage for you. And I said, but I'm not an orphan.

惊喜故事尽在您的播客订阅《美国生活》中。

Surprising stories in your podcast feed, This American Life.

嘿，在节目开始前，我们要给真正的流行文化快乐时光铁粉们带个话。花点时间给节目评个分吧。这真的能帮助其他人发现节目，我们会像读这条来自用户帕蒂·奥康纳的留言一样认真对待：'我最爱四位主持人都能分享观点并展开讨论的集数。'

Hey. Before we get to the show, we've got a message for the true pop culture happy hour heads out there. Take a second and leave the show a rating. It really does help other folks find the show, and we read them like this one from username Patty O'Connor. I love the episodes where the four hosts have something to share and discuss.

今天他们聊了能赢的真人秀节目。感觉他们真心喜欢彼此，氛围特别融洽。不得不说，帕蒂·奥康纳，这话说到点子上了。我们确实互相欣赏。非常感谢你留言，也感谢各位花时间分享想法。

Today, they talked about the reality show they could win. It just seems like they really like each other and have a sympathetic vibe going. Gotta say, Patty O'Connor, that's actually true. We do like each other. Thank you so much for leaving a comment, and thanks to you for taking a moment to share your thoughts.

泰勒·斯威夫特刚刚发布新专辑《秀场女孩的一生》，她将其定位为去年忧郁冠军专辑《 tortured poets department》之后更欢乐、热单云集的续篇。新专辑涉及泰勒与未婚夫特拉维斯·凯尔西的恋情，同时反思名利、平凡生活、网络舆论，以及与另一位流行歌星的持续恩怨。我是史蒂文·汤普森。今天在NPR《流行文化快乐时光》节目中，我们将讨论泰勒·斯威夫特的新专辑《秀场女孩的一生》。

Taylor Swift has just dropped her album, the life of a showgirl, which she's billed as a more joyful and banger filled follow-up to last year's somber chart topper, The Tortured Poets Department. The Life of a Showgirl touches on Taylor Swift's relationship with fiance Travis Kelce, while also reflecting on fame, normalcy, the Internet, and a simmering beef with a fellow pop star. I'm Steven Thompson. Today on NPR's pop culture happy hour, we are talking about Taylor Swift's new album, the life of a showgirl.

嘿，我是《等等别告诉我》的执行制作人迈克·丹福斯。现在有个绝佳方法能享受NPR制作人福利还不用干活——加入NPR Plus会员。订阅后您将获得加长版专访、喜爱的节目幕后花絮等特权，既能支持NPR，又永远不用熬夜加班。

Hey. It's Mike Danforth, executive producer of Wait Wait Don't Tell Me. Here's a great way to get the perks of being an NPR producer without doing any of the work. Join NPR Plus. With NPR Plus, you get extended interviews, inside looks at your favorite shows, and more, all while supporting NPR and never having to pull an all nighter.

或者如果你在某个新闻节目工作，整个上午都在忙。请访问plus.npr.org注册。

Or if you work on one of the news shows, an all morninger. Sign up at plus.npr.org.

大家好，我是《新鲜空气》的主持人泰瑞·格罗斯。嘿，暂时远离24小时新闻循环，和我们一起聆听与你喜爱的作家、演员、电影制作人、喜剧演员及音乐家的深度访谈——那些用艺术滋养我们、诉说时代心声的人们。请收听NPR与WHYY联合制作的《新鲜空气》播客。

Hi. It's Teri Gross, host of Fresh Air. Hey. Take a break from the twenty four hour news cycle with us and listen to long form interviews with your favorite authors, actors, filmmakers, comedians, and musicians, the people making the art that nourishes us and speaks to our times. So listen to the fresh air podcast from NPR and WHYY.

当所爱之人被诊断出癌症或其他严重疾病时，你只想尽己所能提供帮助。但该从何入手？《生活锦囊》播客为你提供实用建议。

When someone you love is diagnosed with cancer or another serious illness, all you wanna do is help. But where do you start? On the Life Kit podcast, we have tips for you.

你的态度应该是：我会陪伴在你身边，全然面对可能发生的一切。

Your agenda should be, I'm gonna be with you and be totally present to whatever comes up.

通过NPR应用或任意播客平台收听，获取提供支持的不同方式。

Listen in the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts for different ways to offer support.

我必须问这个问题：面对这源源不断的可销售内容，你认为泰勒·斯威夫特是在利用她的粉丝吗？

You know, I have to ask. With this endless stream of sellable content, do you think Taylor Swift is exploiting her fans?

不。我要说‘是’但有个附加说明——每位流行明星都在利用自己的粉丝。

No. I'm gonna say yes with an asterisk. Every pop star exploits their fans.

泰勒·斯威夫特是在剥削她的粉丝，还是在滋养他们？请收听NPR应用或你获取播客的任何平台上的《一分钟》节目。

Is Taylor Swift exploiting her fans, or is she feeding them? Listen to it's been a minute on the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts.

今天与我一同参与的是NPR音乐评论员兼记者安妮·鲍尔斯。嗨，安妮。

Joining me today is NPR music critic and correspondent, Anne Powers. Hey, Anne.

嗨，史蒂文。欢迎来到泰勒·斯威夫特日——如今这已是个年度节日了。

Hey, Steven. Welcome to Taylor Swift Day, an annual holiday at this point.

确实是个年度盛典。这是个大日子，我们生活中的主角就是泰勒本人。需要说明的是，我和安妮是在10月2日星期四录制的这段内容。过去36小时里，我们俩都过着歌舞女郎般的生活。你绝对想不到我们签了多少保密协议才能提前听到这张专辑。

It is an annual holiday. It is a big, big day in which the main character in our lives is Taylor herself. So we should note that Anne and I are recording this on Thursday, October 2. We've both had the life of a showgirl for about thirty six hours. You would not believe the agreements that we signed in order to hear this thing ahead of time.

我们的讨论将围绕专辑的12首歌曲展开。我们还没看过她发布的任何剧场版内容，也没看过任何MV。希望她这次不会像《 tortured poets department》时期那样突然发布大量附加曲目。我一直认为你是解读泰勒·斯威夫特的专家。

This conversation is gonna revolve around the album's 12 songs. We haven't seen anything she's released theatrically. We haven't seen any of the videos. And, hopefully, she doesn't drop a ton of additional songs like she did with the tortured poets department. And I've come to think of you as something of a Taylor Swift whisperer.

你写过大量关于她的文章，我知道你是她的粉丝。在泰勒相关话题上我非常信任你的判断。你觉得这种歌舞女郎式的生活怎么样？

You've written about her extensively. I know you're a fan. I greatly trust your judgment when it comes to Taylor Swift. What do you think of the life of a showgirl?

其实当她宣布这张专辑时我很兴奋，因为我也极度推崇马克斯·马丁和舒尔贝克——这张专辑的两位制作人。十年前她与这两位瑞典制作人合作期间，打造出了一系列充满热门金曲的经典专辑。

Well, I was excited when she announced this album because I am also a massive fan of Max Martin and Schulbeck, her two collaborators on this record, the Swedish producers with whom she worked on her incredible run of banger saturated albums about ten years ago now.

你说的是1989年的红色版本。

You're talking about red nineteen eighty nine.

没错。所以我真的很高兴她能和他们重聚。顺便说一句，她在进行破纪录的Eris巡演期间制作了这张专辑，她显然会时不时飞往瑞典和那些人聚聚。

Exactly. So I was really happy that she was reuniting with them. She made this record, by the way, while she was touring with her gigantic record setting Eris tour, she would apparently pop over to Sweden every now and then and hang out with the guys

人之常情嘛。

As one does.

确实如此。对我来说这个过程很有趣，因为在她筹备这场盛大演出的同时，又退回到录音室与一小群核心合作者共事。除了Max和Schelbeck之外，这张专辑几乎没其他人参与。偶尔有些弦乐部分。我对她的音乐演变和神话般的成长轨迹都特别着迷。

As one does. And to me, that process is so interesting because while she is staging this massive extravaganza, then she is retreating into the studio with a very small core of collaborators. I mean, besides Max and Schelbeck, there's barely anyone else on this record. There's a string section here and there. I am so interested in her musical evolution as well as her mythical evolution.

我很喜欢这张专辑里的音乐。

I'm into the music on this record.

是啊。我对她的执行能力感到敬畏。确实，这很吓人。她能同时处理好多项重大任务。

Yeah. I'm kind of in awe of her executive functioning. Yes. It's intimidating. Her ability to juggle many large tasks

是的。

Yes.

真是让我自惭形秽。

Really does put me to complete shame.

我认为这是

I think this is

一张非常有趣的专辑，因为从某些方面来看，它无疑会被视为她的热门金曲专辑。对吧？她似乎有意将其塑造成这样。这是对那种忧郁秋日氛围的转变，你知道的，就是她和Aaron Dessner、Jack Antonoff在《folklore》《evermore》尤其是《the tortured poets department》中探索的风格。这张专辑确实在声音上做出了转变。

a really interesting record because I think in some ways, it's definitely going to be discussed as kind of her bangers record. Right? Like, she's kind of build it as such. This is a pivot away from the kind of somber, autumnal vibes, you know, that she explored with Aaron Dessner and Jack Antonoff, you know, on the folklore evermore and especially the tortured poets department. And it is a pivot away from that sound.

我不认为这是对那种声音风格的完全转变。

I don't think it's a pivot 100% of the way from that sound.

我同意，尤其在主题上并非彻底转变。我是说，它确实从《tortured poets》的心碎基调转向了其他方向。但你也清楚，有些主题泰勒永远不会放手。

I agree, and especially not thematically. It's not a pivot. I mean, it's a pivot from the heartbreak of torture poets. But as you well know, there are some themes Taylor can never let alone.

是的。某种程度上，专辑标题已经透露了——这就是泰勒·斯威夫特的生活。嗯。这就是她的现状。

Yeah. And I think in some ways, it feels like and the title gives it away. This is the life of Taylor Swift. Mhmm. This is, like, the state of Taylor Swift.

正因如此，它包罗万象。对吧？它记录了她人生的阶段。她刚订婚，正深陷爱河。

And as such, it contains multitudes. Right? It is capturing where she is in her life. She is newly engaged. She's very much in love.

从主题上看，这与《苦痛诗人俱乐部》专辑形成巨大转折，但她仍在这张专辑中为其他主题留出空间。比如怀旧式心碎——这是泰勒·斯威夫特反复探讨的标志性主题。还有首叫《毁掉友谊》的歌

That thematically is a big pivot away from, especially, the tortured poets department, but she's still finding room on this record for other themes. You have nostalgic heartbreak, which is a big Taylor Swift topic that she has come back to before. There's a song called Ruin the Friendship

嗯哼

Mhmm.

这首歌讲的是后悔没亲吻某个人

That is about regretting not kissing someone.

非常经典的泰勒式戏剧情节——后来发现她爱慕的对象已经离世

Very classic Taylor melodrama. Finding out later that her object of affection has passed away.

老实说，那是我最喜欢的泰勒·斯威夫特风格之一。比起那些展示‘当泰勒·斯威夫特是什么感觉’的作品，我更喜欢怀旧风的泰勒·斯威夫特。我认为她最出色的时候，是用具体细节来传递普遍情感。而有时当她歌唱巨大名声、唱那些黑粉、唱身为泰勒·斯威夫特的体验时，她的作品会让我感到些许疏离。这张专辑偶尔会有这种情况，但它包含的内容非常丰富。

Honestly, that's one of my favorite Taylor Swift vibes. I like nostalgic Taylor Swift much, much more than here is what it's like to be Taylor Swift. I think when she is at her best, she uses specificity to signal something universal. And sometimes when she is singing about massive fame, when she's singing about haters, when she's singing about what it's like to be Taylor Swift, her stuff can leave me a little cold. And this record intermittently does that, but it contains a lot.

里面有关于特拉维斯·凯尔斯的歌。还有一首相当露骨的情色歌曲是写给他的。

There are Travis Kelce songs. There is a fairly sexual Travis Kelce song.

没错。其实还有首歌搞笑地向同专辑的萨布丽娜·卡彭特致敬——是那种赤裸裸的、带点情色暗示的布鲁斯女王式隐喻歌曲。我觉得非常非常有趣，歌名叫《木头》，如果有人想知道的话。

Yeah. There's actually, it's a hilariously sexual nod to Sabrina Carpenter, her who's also on this record. I mean, that's a flat out body, risque, you know, blues queen, nasty metaphor kind of song. I think it's very, very funny. It's called wood in case, anybody wanted to know.

你可以大致揣摩出这个精心嵌套的隐喻。

You can kind of suss out the intricately nested metaphor.

这与室内装饰无关。不是的

It's not about interior decoration. It's not

这还挺有趣的。我是说，萨布丽娜·卡彭特确实出现在了作为专辑收尾的主打歌里。但在这张专辑的几个段落中，确实能感受到她的一些影响——包括她和泰勒·斯威夫特的新专辑里都出现了些关于大腿的尴尬歌词。

And it's kind of funny. I mean, like, she is definitely you know, Sabrina Carpenter pops up on the title track, which closes the record. But Sabrina Carpenter does feel like a little bit of an influence at a couple points on this record, including both Sabrina Carpenter's new record and Taylor Swift's new record, contain fairly cringey references to thighs.

原谅我，这话听着傲慢。它使我疲倦又让我睁眼。红杉树，不难看见。他的爱是开启我双眼的钥匙。

Forgive me. It sounds cocky. It tires me and open my eyes. Redwood tree, it ain't hard to see. His love was the key that opened my eyes.

我倒不介意泰勒这样。或许因为她们就像是生活中那种单向情感投射的对象。看着她们公开演绎感情戏码就觉得好笑——特拉维斯和泰勒某种程度上像在表演喜剧小品，我都能想象他们开玩笑想出这些桥段的样子。

I don't mind Taylors. I actually maybe it's because they are these, you know, parasocial figures in our lives. It just makes me laugh because they play out their public relationship. I mean, Travis and Taylor do as a kind of a comedy routine in some ways. So I can kind of imagine them jokingly coming up with this.

幸好特拉维斯没有参与那首歌的创作。但这简直像是他们相处方式的延伸——虽然我从未见过特拉维斯·凯尔斯，也不真正了解他们的关系。但贯穿整张专辑，尤其是关于他的那些歌里流露的幽默感，我很欣赏。

I'm not Travis does not have a writing credit on that song. Thank goodness. But it's almost like an extension of how what I think they may be like. And I've never met Travis Kelce, and I I don't know anything about their relationship really. But the good humor that runs throughout this album and especially the songs about him, I value that.

不知道，我喜欢幽默版的泰勒。虽然有时她的笑点有点生硬——史蒂文，我知道这点让你抓狂，但你其实也挺吃这种笨拙幽默的，对吧？你甚至有点喜欢那些翻车的歌词。

I don't know. I like Funny Taylor. I think sometimes she's a little clunky, though, in her humor, which I know Steven bothers you, but you also kind of like the clunkiness. Right? You're like a fan of her lines that kind of woof.

你知道吗？

You know?

是的。我是说，我不确定是否该自称是粉丝。当她写出糟糕作品时，我也会和别人一样感到尴尬。但我确实认为她那种——天啊，我不是故意用这个词当彩蛋——她在创作中近乎无畏的态度。

Yeah. I mean, I don't know if I would say I'm necessarily a fan. I will cringe as hard as anybody when she unleashes a clunker. But I do think that her tendency to be oh god. I'm not using this word deliberately as, like, an Easter egg, but to be fairly fearless in her songwriting.

我认为她敢于写出让人皱眉的歌词

I think her willingness to uncork a groaner

是啊。

Yeah.

这正是她创作独特的原因之一，也是让她成为全球顶级流行巨星的特质。尽管无数人模仿她——从奥利维亚·罗德里戈到萨布丽娜·卡彭特都在复刻泰勒·斯威夫特那种说话式唱腔——但她写的歌永远带着鲜明的泰勒印记。即便写的不是关于自己作为超级巨星的经历或那些著名恋情。

Is part of what makes her songwriting distinct. And one of the things that makes her the world's biggest pop star. Like, as much as she is imitated, as widely as you will hear echoes of Taylor Swift's speak singing that have been echoed by an Olivia Rodrigo, that have been echoed by a Sabrina Carpenter, she still writes songs that don't sound like they could come from anybody but Taylor Swift Absolutely. Even when she is not writing about specifically being Taylor Swift and being massively famous and being in the relationships that she's been in.

我不是说她准备隐退，虽然新歌里有句歌词提到想搬到郊区陪未来孩子打篮球。谁知道呢？

I'm not saying that she's gonna take a break, although there is a line on one of these songs about wanting to, like, move to the suburbs and play basketball with her future children. So who knows?

你说的是《许愿》这首歌

You're talking about wish

是的，我是。那是她表达的一个梦想。某种程度上是可以实现的梦想，但不完全，因为特拉维斯·凯尔西也不会从自己的名人身份中退休。

list. Yes. I am. And that is a dream she expresses. And a realizable dream in some ways, not entirely, because it's not like Travis Kelce is gonna retire from his own celebrity either.

所以他即将从橄榄球界退役，但他不会停止播客。

So He's about to retire from football, but he's not gonna retire from podcasting.

没错。但关于这张专辑，我真正喜爱的一点是它给我的感觉像是一个巅峰。作为马克斯·马丁和Shellback的超级粉丝，他们三人巧妙融入了后七十年代流行音乐史的种种元素，以及泰勒的整个音乐生涯。你刚提到的《Wishlist》这首歌，如果只听节奏并思考诗句结构，它完全是对《Style》的致敬——那首据说是影射哈里·斯泰尔斯的歌，来自她与马克斯和Schulbeck合作的《1989》专辑。

Exactly. But one thing that I love about this record actually is that it feels to me like a culmination. As a huge Max Martin and Shellback fan, the three of them weave in both references to kind of, like, the entire history of post, maybe post seventies, pop and the entire history of Taylor. You just mentioned the song Wishlist. If you listen to just the cadence and think of the sentence structure of the verses on that song, it is a total throwback to style, which is, her supposedly Harry Styles, referencing song from 1989, a record she made with Max and Schulbeck.

《Eldest Daughter》是一首优美永恒的民谣，我知道未来二十年里它将成为纳什维尔婚礼上的首选第一支舞曲。

Eldest Daughter, that is a beautiful, timeless ballad that I know will now be the first dance at weddings here in Nashville for, like, the next twenty years.

这是你的第五首推荐曲目，可见她对这首歌表达的内容极为重视。

And that's your track five. So you know she cares very deeply about what she's saying in that song.

没错。完全正确。但这首歌追溯到她最著名的歌词之一——‘一个粗心男人的细心女儿’，来自她早期的乡村音乐时期。天啊，我讨厌这样，因为我不想表现得像个狂热的泰勒粉丝或过度代入她的生活。

Yes. Exactly. Exactly. But that song, you know, reaches all the way back to one of her most famous lines, you know, a careless man's careful daughter, right, from back in her country days. God, I hate this because I don't wanna, like, stan Taylor or parasocial out with her.

但我认为她对特拉维斯·凯尔西爱的表达真的很动人。这首歌里敞开心扉的《Eldest Daughter》确实非常打动人。这张专辑巧妙地穿梭于泰勒音乐生涯的各个阶段，呈现这种巅峰状态并定位她现在的地位。我热爱这点，因为这真是流行音乐制作的艺术典范。

But I think the expressions of love toward Travis Kelce are really touching. You know? And the kind of open heartedness on the song, like, eldest daughter is really, really moving. This record very artfully kind of moves through Taylor's own career musically to present this culmination and land her where she is now. And and I love that because it's just really such artful pop music making.

我是说，你可以说她写的歌笨拙。这没问题。但我觉得这张专辑的音效无懈可击。

I mean, you can say she writes clunkers. That's cool. But the sound on this record is airtight, I think.

没错。这正是我想重点提的歌曲《蛋白石》。嗯。你知道，它在专辑中出现得相当早，具有那种宏大、明亮、戏剧化的特质。

Yeah. And that's where I wanna call out the song opalite Mhmm. Which, you know, comes fairly early in the record and has this big, bright, theatrical quality.

是的。

Yes.

这完全就是一首精心打造的洗脑神曲。哦，我真高兴我们已经过了'受折磨诗人部'那个阶段。

It's a true, like, just fully fleshed out earworm. Oh, I'm so glad we're past the tortured poets department.

对。而且它带有Max Martin的风格。对吧？关键在于，他总是思考自己的创作如何与当下连接，同时也与流行乐史上的经典时刻呼应。

Yeah. And it's got that Max Martin thing. Right? So here's the thing. He is always thinking about how what he's doing connects to the present moment, but also to previous moments in pop.

所以这首歌带着几分五十年代的风格，比如那段副歌。拜托，正在听的各位，如果你们知道那段旋律——抱歉我唱不准——出自哪首歌，它一直萦绕在我心头，是另一首歌里的。

So that song has these kind of almost like fifties style like, there's that chorus. And please, anyone listening, if you know where that sorry. I'm not tuneful. Where that comes from, it's haunting me. It's from another song.

但它也让人联想到《油脂》这类音乐剧。再加上这首歌非常现代的制作水准，你就得到了一首仿佛同时无处不在的歌。瞬息全宇宙。这就是泰勒的本质。

But it's also so evocative of, like, the musical Grease or something like that. And then add that into the very contemporary kind of production standards on this song, and you have a song that just seems to be everywhere all at once. Everything everywhere all at once. That's what Taylor's all about.

对我来说，这是这张专辑里真正出彩的作品之一。你还有其他喜欢的歌曲吗？

I think for me, that's one of the real standouts on the record. Do you have other favorite songs?

我确实喜欢《父亲形象》这首歌。它有一段非常耳熟的改编段落，创作署名里有乔治·迈克尔的名字。所以它其实是

And I do like father figure. That has a very recognizable interpolation. There's a writing credit for George Michael. So it plays off

乔治·迈克尔最令人毛骨悚然的歌。

For George Michael's creepiest song.

既惊悚又绝美。我实在忍不住，这歌太动人了。但有趣的是，她在这首歌里做了个精妙处理——刻意强化了那种令人不安的史蒂文特质。

Creepiest and most beautiful. I I can't help it. It's a gorgeous song. You know? And so but she actually does something fascinating with this song, which is she leans into the creepy Steven.

对吧？她借用这段年龄悬殊的畸形关系隐喻，来揭露音乐圈里某个前导师的丑态，最后基本就是在说：嘿，现在我比你更有权势，我才是那个‘父亲形象’。这种反转手法很巧妙，虽然表达方式刻薄，但音乐呈现又如此优美。

Right? And she uses this age inappropriate relationship trope to call out a former mentor who clearly is a man in the music industry, and in the end, basically say, hey. I am more powerful than you. I am now your father figure, which is such a neat little trick. She does it in a very mean spirited way, but in also in such a beautiful way musically.

所以这是个迷人的反转。再次证明泰勒的创作功力——在我看来这和《我的眼泪反弹》异曲同工，后者更脆弱地表达了被利用的伤痛。而这里她仿佛在宣告：不，现在是我掌控局面，我才是那个‘父亲形象’。

So it's just a fascinating twist. And, again, it's a it's a a back for Taylor because to me, this is my tears ricochet, which is a more vulnerable expression of being taken advantage of. But here, she's like, no. I'm on top. I'm the father figure.

我觉得这种小心眼的报复还挺有意思的。

And I find that enjoyable in a petty way.

哦，当然。我们还会谈到这张专辑中贯穿的那一丝刻薄倾向。

Oh, absolutely. And we'll get to the slight mean streak that runs through this record.

一丝？天哪。

Slight. Oh my goodness.

在我们完全抛开特拉维斯·凯尔斯的话题之前，这张专辑后面有首我特别喜欢的歌叫《蜂蜜》。

Before we get entirely away from the Travis Kelce of it all, there's a song late on this record that I do love called Honey.

哦，是的。

Oh, yeah.

这正是泰勒·斯威夫特处于创作巅峰的完美例证，因为这首歌非常具体地描述了她与特拉维斯·凯尔斯的恋情。它揭示了之前不为人知的细节，但表达方式却具有普适性，道出了一个更深层的真相——当这些话语被恶意使用时，它们的含义就完全不同了。

And that is a perfect example of when Taylor Swift is at the top of her songwriting game because that is a song that is very specific to her relationship with Travis Kelce Yeah. That is illuminating about her relationship with it's revealing a detail we didn't have before, but it's doing it in a way that feels universal and is speaking to a larger truth of, like, when these words are spoken in bad faith, they mean something very different.

与充满爱意时说出来的感觉截然不同。对，没错，完全同意。

Than when they're spoken in love. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely.

你可以叫我宝贝，因为我是你心之所向。

You can call me honey if you want because I'm the one you want.

关于Honey这首歌，我必须说它凸显了这张专辑中我非常看重的一个方面——她的演唱。嗯。记得很久以前泰勒·斯威夫特刚成名时，包括当时我为《洛杉矶时报》撰稿在内的许多人都在质疑：这女孩真的会唱歌吗？那时候人们并不认为泰勒·斯威夫特会唱歌。

I just have to say about Honey, it also highlights an aspect of this album that I really value, which is her singing. Mhmm. I mean, remember way back one hundred million years ago when Taylor Swift first became a star and people like me who I was writing for the LA Times at the time were like, can this girl even sing? Like, people did not think Taylor Swift could sing.

哦，没错。因为她曾以现场表演不稳定著称，但现在完全不是这样了。

Oh, yeah. Because she was kind of famously unsteady live performer, and she is not anymore.

确实不是了。我认为这张专辑是在她巡演期间录制的，当时她显然非常注重嗓音保养，每晚都以极具爆发力的方式运用嗓音。她在演唱这些歌曲时充满乐趣，就连唱'honey'这个词时那种拖长的腔调，都让我联想到六十年代摩登风，就像《王牌大贱谍》主题曲那种感觉。

No. Not at all. And I think the fact that they made this record while she was on tour, while she was obviously taking very good care of her voice and really deploying her voice every night, you know, in in this very powerful way, she just has so much fun singing these songs. I mean, even the way she sings that word honey, you know, she kind of drags it out. And it's it reminds me of, like, mod sixties, you know, Austin Powers theme song kind of way.

明白吗？类似的还有专辑开头《奥菲莉亚的命运》那段，歌曲刚开始她模仿那种诱惑性、晕眩般的语气唱到特拉维斯给她打电话的场景。

You know? Or similarly, the very beginning of this record on the fate of Ophelia, the first little bit of that song where she's, talking about someone, Travis, calling her on the telephone, she does it in this, like, mock seductive, woozy, swoony way.

我听见你通过扩音器呼唤我/你想单独见我/正如传说所言——

I heard you calling on the megaphone. You wanna see me all alone. As legend has

她在这些时刻展现的演唱控制力极具戏剧性，我认为这是这张专辑非常重要的特质。我太爱她在这首歌里的唱腔了，感觉她现在完全可以进军百老汇。

The control she shows as a singer in those moments, it's very theatrical, which I think is a really important thing about this record. And I love the way she sings on this. So I think she's ready for her Broadway show now.

安妮，我们私下聊过这张专辑后半部分有几首歌不太打动我们。不过我觉得前半张还是很扎实的。

Anne, you and I have talked offline that there are a couple of songs, particularly late on this record, that don't work for us as much. I think the first half is pretty solid.

对。没错。完全同意。不止是扎实。

Right. Yeah. Absolutely. More than solid.

是的。但当你看到后半部分时，有几个选择我不太认同。我我

Yeah. But you get into the back half, and there are a couple of choices made that I'm not necessarily a huge fan of. And I I

我觉得你比我更困扰。我更多的是为她感到困扰，而不是被她困扰，不过我们可以深入讨论这点。我们可以聊聊这个。

I think you're more troubled than I am. I'm I'm sort of troubled for her more than troubled by her, but we can get into that. We can get into that.

好吧，我要谈谈《Actually Romantic》这首歌

Well, I'm gonna talk about the song Actually Romantic

好的。

Okay.

很明显，我们周四会讨论这个。目前网上关于这张专辑内容的讨论还不多。不，还没有。等到这期节目播出时，我猜应该会有大量讨论了。

Which is pretty clearly, and obviously, we're talking about this on Thursday. There has necessarily been a gigantic amount of online discourse No. Not yet. About the contents of this record. By the time this episode drops, I suspect there will have been.

没错。Charli XCX在《Brat》专辑里有首歌叫《Sympathy is a knife》。Charli XCX的伴侣是1975乐队的成员。

Yeah. Charlie x c x had a song on brat called sympathy is a knife. Charlie x c x's partner is in the 1975.

现在是丈夫了。我想他们已经结婚了。

Husband now. I think they're married.

是的。泰勒·斯威夫特与马蒂·希利高调恋爱。她为此写了很多深沉的歌曲。

Yes. Taylor Swift famously dating Maddie Healy. She wrote many ponderous songs about it.

我喜欢那些歌。不过话说回来。

I love those songs. But anyway.

《同情是把刀》这首歌某种程度上是在描绘，看到一个如此强大成功的人在后台却表现出不安全感。对我来说，这首歌更多是关于查理XCX自身的不安全感，而非对泰勒·斯威夫特的diss曲。泰勒新专辑里有首歌叫《确实浪漫》，我觉得会引起很多人的共鸣，肯定会引发大量讨论。

Sympathy is a knife is a little bit about, like, seeing this incredibly powerful and successful person backstage having an insecure response to it. Right. To me, it is much more of a song about Charlie XCX's own insecurities than it is any kind of diss track against Taylor Swift. Well, Taylor Swift has a song on this new album called actually romantic, which I suspect is gonna resonate with a lot of people. It's certainly gonna be talked about a lot.

在我看来这反应过度了。这是首好歌但让我很烦。

To me, it is a huge overreaction. It's a good song that bugs me.

我听到你借着酒劲叫我无聊芭比。和我前任击掌后，你说很高兴他离开。针对我，写了首歌说看到我的脸就恶心。

I heard you call me boring Barbie when the Cokes got you brave. High vived my ex, and then you said you're glad he goes. Did me, wrote me a song saying it makes you sick to see my face.

嗯。我理解。说到这里，我又得从这种单向情感关系中抽离出来了。

Yeah. I understand that. And, again, this is where I have to kinda walk away from the parasocialness of it all.

永远是个好主意。

Always a good idea.

我是说，我知道。泰勒确实在重新审视、打磨，或许可以说是对她之前探索过的主题进行重复创作。她整首歌都在表达'我不在乎你'，而实际上她显然很在意。

I mean, I know. Definitely, Taylor revisiting, honing, perhaps, you know, getting repetitive on a theme that she's explored before. She's got this whole thing about, like, I am not bothered by you, and this is when she's clearly is.

但这就像是把推特上的吐槽写成了歌。真的。就像在说，别在报纸上写我生气了。

But It's kind of a drill tweet in song form. It is. Like, don't put in the newspaper that I was mad.

是啊。但我觉得歌里有几句有趣的歌词。比如把歌里的反派比作从一个小...

Yeah. But I just, there's a few funny lines in the song. I think the line comparing the antagonists, in the song to a toy chihuahua barking at me from a tiny

狗。

dog.

没错。这确实挺有趣的。

Yeah. Is actually it is funny.

我知道你觉得这话听起来恶毒，但它其实很可爱，就像一只玩具吉娃娃从迷你包里朝我叫唤。这就是它伤人的程度。

And I know you think it comes off vicious, but it's precious, adorable, like a toy chihuahua while bugging at me from a tiny purse. That's how much it hurts.

如果你能让自己远离那些八卦闲谈，这首歌其实已经过度播放了。它有点卡通化，但她确实在其中加入了一些犀利言辞。或许我该在这里阐明我对这张专辑的更高层次理解——经过多年思考（我人生中花在琢磨泰勒·斯威夫特的时间实在太多了），我意识到至少从她与马克斯·马丁合作、真正转向流行音乐并开始打造自己流行巨星形象起，泰勒的每张专辑都至少有两个层次。一是我们正在讨论的自传性层面，二是概念性层面。没错。

If you can remove yourself from the gossip, the song, it's overplayed. It is cartoonish, but she gets some zingers in there. And maybe this is where I should just state my higher concept for this album because what I've realized after many years, way too much of my life thinking about Taylor Swift at this point, is that at least since she started working with Max Martin and really went for the pop and started building herself as a pop star, every Taylor Swift album works on at least two levels. It works on the level of autobiography as we're discussing, and then it also works on the level of the concept. Yeah.

所以我认为这张专辑在'表演女郎'主题上的呈现方式是：她塑造了一个角色——那个坚韧不拔、浓妆艳抹、跳舞跳到脚痛却依然坚持'演出必须继续'的形象。我很好奇，比如在这首歌或《被取消》里，她以某些人可能觉得不安的方式力挺姐妹团时，是否在刻意强化这个角色？至少她从这个角色中汲取了勇气。我的意思是，她在向《彗星美人》里的贝蒂·戴维斯或电影《艳舞女郎》中的伊丽莎白·伯克利致敬。这些是为名声而生、为聚光灯而活的女人。我们能把泰勒本人和这个角色区分开吗？

So the way this is working on showgirl, I think, is that she's created this character, the tough as nails, you know, grease paint wearing, my feet hurt from dancing, but I you know, the show must go on. I really wonder if in this song, for example, or in the song canceled where she stands up for her girl squad in ways that some people might find disturbing, if she's leaning into that character, she's at least finding courage in that character. I mean, she is reaching back to Betty Davis in All About Eve or Elizabeth Berkley in the movie show girls. These are those women who live for the fame, who live for the lights. And can we separate Taylor from that character?

这就是我想请教你的问题。

That's my question for you.

好吧安妮，可以说这是关于这张专辑的最后一次讨论了。

Well, Anne, I think it is safe to say this is the final conversation anyone will have about this album.

很高兴我们解决了所有问题。我太...

I'm glad we settled it all. I'm so

高兴我们理清了一切。尘埃落定。我们完成了。谢谢你泰勒。对了，如果你想在纳什维尔郊区买豪宅，随时联系我。

glad we figured it all out. Resolved. We're done. Thank you, Taylor. You know, if you wanna some advice on buying a mega mansion in one of the suburbs here in Nashville, call me.

我能帮你找到那个篮球架。真的可以。

I can find you that basketball hoop. I can.

好的。我们想知道你对歌舞女郎生活的看法。很可能每个人都有自己的见解。在facebook.com/pchh上找到我们。这期节目到此结束。

Alright. Well, we wanna know what you think about the life of a showgirl. Chances are everyone will have an opinion. Find us at facebook.com/pchh. That brings us to the end of our show.

安妮·鲍尔斯，非常感谢你的到来。

Anne Powers, thank you so much for being here.

总是很愉快。明年泰勒日我们的年度服务日再见。

It's always a pleasure. I will see you next year on Taylor Day for our annual day of service.

哦，天啊。当她发行第十三张专辑时，你知道她对数字13的态度吧？那张专辑肯定会经过深思熟虑。提醒一下，订阅《流行文化欢乐时光+》是支持我们节目和公共广播的好方法，而且你可以无广告收听所有剧集。请访问+.npr.org/happyhour或查看节目说明中的链接了解更多。

Oh, man. When she drops her thirteenth album, you know how she is about the number 13? That thing is going to have some thought put into it. Just a reminder that signing up for pop culture happy hour plus is a great way to support our show and public radio, and you get to listen to all of our episodes sponsor free. So please go find out more at +.npr.org/happyhour or visit the link in our show notes.

本期节目由莉兹·梅茨格、贾娜·莫里斯和迈克·卡特塞夫制作，由我们的节目统筹杰西卡·里迪编辑。Hello Come In提供主题音乐。感谢收听NPR的《流行文化欢乐时光》。我是史蒂文·汤普森，我们下次见。

This episode was produced by Liz Metzger, Janae Morris, and Mike Katsef, and edited by our showrunner, Jessica Reedy. Hello Come In provides our theme music. Thank you for listening to pop culture happy hour from NPR. I'm Steven Thompson, and we will see you all next time.

许多每日短新闻播客只关注一个故事。但现在，你可能需要更多。在NPR的《Up First》中，我们每天在15分钟内为你带来全球三大头条新闻，因为没有一个故事能涵盖我们这个疯狂大世界里每天早晨发生的所有事情。现在就收听NPR的《Up First》播客。

A lot of short daily news podcasts focus on just one story. But right now, you probably need more. On up first from NPR, we bring you three of the world's top headlines every day in under fifteen minutes because no one story can capture all that's happening in this big crazy world of ours on any given morning. Listen now to the Up First podcast from NPR.

我热爱太空。我热爱物理，也热爱电影。当我告诉别人这三件事时，他们经常会问我一部特定的电影——《星际穿越》。用2013年Facebook感情状态的话说，这很复杂。所以在NPR的《Shortwave》播客中，我们重看了克里斯托弗·诺兰的《星际穿越》，以区分科学事实与科幻虚构。

I love space. I love physics, and I love movies. And when I tell people all three of those things, they often ask me about one specific movie, Interstellar. In the words of a twenty thirteen Facebook relationship status, it's complicated. So on NPR Shortwave podcast, we rewatched Christopher Nolan's Interstellar to separate the science facts from the science fiction.

在NPR应用或任何你获取播客的地方收听。

Listen in the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts.

每天，政治领域都会发生许多事情。而每一天，NPR政治播客都在这里为你解读这一切。我们是你的日常伙伴，为你提供保持信息更新所需的新闻和动态。请在NPR应用或任何你获取播客的地方收听NPR政治播客。

Every day, a lot happens in the world of politics. And every day, the NPR politics podcast is here to make sense of it all. We're your daily companion, giving you the updates and news you need to stay informed. Listen to the NPR Politics Podcast on the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts.