更年期之谜

哦，等等。你在听。好的。

Oh, wait. You're listen Okay.

好的。行。好的。你在听 听着

Alright. Okay. Alright. You are listening Listening

Radiolab Radiolab。来自

Radiolab Radiolab. From

WNY 看？是的。

WNY See? Yep.

嘿。这里是Radiolab。我是莫莉·韦伯斯特。

Hey. This is Radiolab. I'm Molly Webster.

嗨。感觉好像从去年夏天就没见过你了。

Hi. I feel like I haven't I haven't seen you since, like, last summer.

今天我暂代露露和拉蒂夫

I'm sitting in for Lulu and Latif today

哦，天啊。

Oh, god.

自从我们在密歇根州时。与我们的特约编辑希瑟·拉德克一起。

Since we were in Michigan. With our contributing editor, Heather Radke.

我想是的。

I think that's right.

好了，希瑟。好了。我要

Alright, Heather. Alright. I'm gonna

假设你有个故事要告诉我们。没错。这就是我们在这里的原因。我有事要告诉你们。耶。

assume you have a story to tell us. That's right. That's why we're here. I have something to tell you. Yay.

不久前，我和Radiolab最喜爱的科学作家之一有过一次对话。

So a little while back, I had a conversation with one of Radiolab's favorite science writers.

我是露西·库克，《关于雌性物种的“婊子”》一书的作者，拥有动物学背景。

I'm Lucy Cook. I'm the author of Bitch on the Female of the Species, and got a background in zoology.

好吧，

Alright,

露西·库克。我们确实很喜欢露西。是的。

Lucy Cook. We do love Lucy. Yeah.

她就像个环球旅行者，追踪各种惊人的动物故事。她去过巴拿马会见那些‘嗨翻天’的侏儒树懒，也去过瑞典追踪醉酒的驼鹿。好吧。不久前，在她创作最新作品时，我很高兴

She's like this globe trotting tracker of amazing animal stories. She's been to Panama to meet stoned dwarf sloths. She went to Sweden to track drunken moose. Alright. And then a little while back, while she was working on her latest book I was delighted

能飞往西雅图与这群虎鲸相遇。

to fly to Seattle and meet this population of orcas.

她听闻了一个关于虎鲸的惊人发现。

She got wind of a pretty amazing discovery in killer whales.

是的。这感觉是个非常非常重要的故事，而且我觉得它很鼓舞人心。

Yeah. This felt like a really, really important story and one that I found inspirational.

这一发现直指许多人在生命中某个时刻都将面对的问题，包括露西自己、我，还有你。我。你，莫莉。好吧。确实如此。

It was a discovery that directly speaks to something that lots of humans are actually going to have to contend with at some point in their lives, including Lucy herself and me and you. Me. You, Molly. Okay. So, yeah.

于是露西跳上了飞机。

So Lucy hopped on a plane.

飞往西雅图。

Flew to Seattle.

然后前往西雅图以北那片鲸鱼实际栖居的海域。

And then to get to the patch of the ocean North of Seattle where the whales actually live.

你得换乘水上飞机。你会

You get a seaplane. You get

感觉自己置身于1970年代的冒险电视剧里。那个年代大家处理紧急情况都是坐水上飞机出行，你知道的。

to feel like you're in a nineteen seventies, you know, adventure TV series. That's how everybody travels in the nineteen seventies, was by seaplane to go and deal with emergencies, you know.

但露西此行的真正目的是要登上一艘船，与一位名叫黛博拉·贾尔斯的女士同行。

But the actual reason Lucy was there was to get on a boat with a woman named Yeah. Deborah Giles.

我是黛博拉·贾尔斯博士，不过大家都直接叫我贾尔斯。

So my name's Deborah Giles, Doctor. Deborah Giles, but I just go by my last name, Giles.

是的。我写信自荐加入她的科考船队，因为我听说她每天都会出海追踪虎鲸，试图用网兜收集它们的粪便。

Yeah. I'd written to her offering up my services to join her on her research boat, because I'd heard that she went out every day chasing orcas, trying to catch their poo in a net.

这就是我的主要工作。没错。我的本职就是收集粪便。

That's what I do. Okay. Yeah. My main job is poop collection.

原因在于，正如她会告诉你的，粪便是个金矿。

And the reason why is because, as she'll tell you, poop is a gold mine.

没错，完全正确。

Yeah, absolutely.

显然，通过观察鲸鱼的粪便，你可以了解到很多关于它们的信息。

Apparently, you can learn a lot about whales by looking at their poop.

你能想象的一切。任何可以从血液样本中获得的信息，都能通过粪便分析出来。

Everything you can imagine. Anything that you can get from a blood sample, can analyze through the feces.

激素、微生物、环境化学物质。

Hormones, microbes, environmental chemicals.

是的。所以

Yes. So

他们的做法是乘船出海，直到发现这群虎鲸。然后

what they do is they go out in the boat until they spot this group of killer whales. And then

进行所谓的远距离粪便追踪。哦。我相信这是个科学术语。你们保持一个礼貌的距离跟在后面。

you do what's called a distant poop follow. Oh. And I believe that that is a scientific term. You form a little polite distance back.

是啊。每个人都需要一些隐私。没错。别挤得太近。然后某个时候，贾尔斯的一位助手

Yeah. Everyone needs some privacy. Exactly. Overcrowd them. And at some point, one of Giles' assistants

一位非人类研究助手——哦。是狗狗伊娃，这只来自萨克拉门托的流浪狗

A nonhuman research Oh. Assistant Eva the dog, the former street dog from Sacramento

会嗅到气味。

will pick up a scent.

用鼻子闻闻。

Get a snout.

她会走到船头

She'll go to the front

把鼻子伸向空中。

of the boat. Put her snout in the air.

站在船首。

Stand up on the bow.

然后引导它们找到它。

And then lead them to it.

鲸鱼的粪便会浮在水面上吗？

Does the whale poop float at the surface?

是的。我们说的绝不是固体粪便，更像是浓稠的煎饼面糊。

Yes. We're not talking a solid turd by any means. It's more of a thick pancake batter.

然后他们只需俯身船边，用一根棍子末端的塑料实验瓶。

And then they just lean over the side of the boat with this plastic lab vial on the end of a stick.

轻轻触碰水面。

And gently break the surface of the water.

然后收集粪便样本。好的。露西去拜访贾尔斯和这些鲸鱼的原因是，研究它们的科学家们注意到了一些异常现象。

And scoop up the poop. Okay. So the reason Lucy went to visit Giles and these whales is because the scientists who study them had noticed something odd.

我们观察到这个种群中的雌性鲸鱼到了一定年龄就不再生育了。

There comes a time when we don't see the females in this population giving birth.

当它们活到40岁左右时，雌鲸就完全停止生育了——尽管它们的寿命能达到70、80甚至100岁。

When they got to be around like 40 or so, the female whales just stopped having babies, even though they lived to be 70, 80, even like a 100 years old.

这些雌性鲸鱼生命中很长一段时间都没有新生的幼鲸。

So These females were living this long stretch of their life without having any new calves.

最初科学家们猜测可能是流产，或是水中污染物导致高龄雌鲸停止生育。但在2017年2月，贾尔斯与同事山姆·瓦瑟发表的粪便分析证实了一个被学界探讨数十年的不同假说。他们原文写道：‘该种群雌鲸经历了生殖衰老’。

But first, the scientists thought they were having miscarriages maybe, or there was some kind of pollutant in the water or something that was causing these older females to stop having babies. But in 02/2017, Giles and this colleague of hers, Sam Wasser, published a poop analysis that confirmed a very different hypothesis that people had been considering for a couple decades. They wrote, and I quote here, the females in the population have undergone reproductive senescence.

衰老？

Oh, senescence?

对，这个词我也不熟悉...或许你了解？我不...

Yeah. Which was like not a word I knew, but I'm Yeah. But maybe you know it. I don't

不清楚...

know. Well

这算是种学术表述——意味着到特定年龄后，这些鲸鱼的生殖系统会开始生理性衰退。结合对鲸群的长期观测和搁浅鲸的尸检，他们确认这些鲸鱼正在经历更年期。

It's like a fancy way of Yeah. That at a certain age, the reproductive system of these whales started to physiologically shut down. And along with a lot of other observations about the whales and autopsies of beached whales, they were able to, like, confirm that these whales were going through menopause.

明白了。

Okay.

这就是我要揭晓的重大发现，莫莉。我

That's my big reveal, Molly. I

猜我可能原本会预期它们经历更年期。

guess I maybe would have expected them to go through menopause.

你不惊讶吗？克里斯，你不觉得意外？我不知道。我心想...其实你们应该要感到惊讶才对，因为

You're not surprised? You're not surprised, Chris? I don't know. I'm like Well, you kind of should be surprised because

好吧。

Okay.

事实上，在科学家发现鲸类这个特性之前，学界普遍认为更年期是人类独有的现象。

Actually, up until they figured this out about the whales, scientists widely believed that menopause was a uniquely human thing.

真的吗？嗯哼。

Really? Mhmm.

是啊。

Yeah.

过去人们假定人类女性是唯一会经历更年期的物种。

It was assumed that human females were the only species that went through it.

在约6000种哺乳动物中，他们认为只有人类会这样。

Out of like 6,000 some species of mammals, they thought we were the only ones.

所以我们就是...没错。我们简直就是异类。

So we were just yeah. We were just freaks.

而且这很奇怪，因为从科学角度想，更年期实际上非常反常。你以为它不是什么大事

And freaks because if you think about it scientifically, menopause is actually very weird. You think it doesn't is

你是在说，呃，这很反常，还是你觉得科学家们会说，哟，这真反常。

it is this sort of you saying, like, this is weird, or do you think scientists are like, yo. This is weird.

我是说，他们可能会用更专业的术语表达。

I mean, they would probably say it a little bit more fancy.

所以你知道，我本来想委婉点...不，这确实超级反常对吧？就是超级反常。

So I'm you know, I would just come well, no. Like, it is super weird. Right? It is super weird.

好吧。这位是科学家，他叫凯文。

Okay. So this is a scientist. His name is Kevin.

我有个很长的姓氏——兰格格拉伯。凯文·兰格格拉伯，亚利桑那州立大学人类演化与社会变革学院的副教授。

And I have a long last name. Langergraber. Kevin Langergraber. I'm an associate professor in the school of human evolution and social change at Arizona State University.

凯文说从进化论角度看，没有动物应该拥有他所谓的

And Kevin says from an evolutionary point of view, no animal should have what he calls

可观的后生殖期寿命

The substantial post reproductive lifespan.

可观的后生殖期寿命。砰。

Substantial post reproductive lifespan. Pan.

有趣的术语。是啊，我问能不能换个更生动的说法，他说不行。

Fun phrase. Yeah. I asked him if we could say something more fun, and he said no.

不。所以

No. So

总之，关键在于你在无法繁殖后还能存活很长时间。

Anyway, the point is it's the living for a long time after you can no longer reproduce.

嗯。

Mhmm.

这才是奇怪的地方。

That's the weird part.

这不应该啊，因为从进化的角度来看，进化青睐的是那些能让更多基因传递到下一代的特征。

It shouldn't be because from the perspective of evolution, right, what evolution favors traits that get more genes into the next generation.

如果你不生孩子，你就没有把基因传递到下一代。

And if you're not having babies, you're not sending your genes into the next generation.

自然选择对生育能力的丧失持相当消极的态度，一旦停止繁殖，你就会死亡。这基本上是普遍规律。

Natural selection takes a, you know, pretty dim view of a loss of fertility, and once you stop breeding, you die. That that's the general story.

自然选择真的那么绝对吗？如果你没有为基因库做贡献，你就该被淘汰？

And is natural selection really that cut and dry that it's if you're not contributing to the genetic pool, you should be out?

当然，选择并非一切。对吧？并非生物体的每个特征都有功能性原因。但你知道，就像绝大多数哺乳动物物种一样，你会一直繁殖直到死亡。所以仍有少数物种不这样，这还是很奇怪。

Well, of course, selection isn't everything. Right? Not every trait you look at in an organism has a functional reason. But, you know, like the vast majority of mammal species, you end up reproducing until you die. Then it's still super weird that a few don't.

比如，这样想吧。如果有一个女人能在她的一生中持续生育直到死亡，至少在基因上，她会胜过那些不能这样做的女性。所以似乎应该存在某种进化遗传上的原因，让生殖系统在人类个体死亡前逐渐衰退。

Like, think about it this way. If there were a human woman who could keep having babies for her whole life until she dies, she would, genetically at least, outcompete the women who can't. So it sort of seems like there should be some evolutionary genetic reason for the reproductive system to kind of peter out before the human person does.

这就是进化上的谜题。对吧？所以这并非

That is the evolutionary puzzle. Right? So it's not

人们听到这个现象时最常说的观点之一是，在人类中，这有点像现代生活的偶然现象。

Now one of the most common things people say when they hear about this is that in humans, this is kind of like a fluke of modern life.

所以当时的想法是，或许人类女性能够活过生殖年龄期限，是因为有规律饮食和现代医学的支撑。

So the idea was that perhaps human females were living beyond their reproductive shelf life because we were being propped up by regular meals and modern medicine.

也就是说，过去的人们通常在更年期左右就会去世。所以这种漫长的生殖后寿命仅仅是因为我们现在比以前活得更久了。

So the idea being that in olden times, we used to die around menopause. And so this long post reproductive life is just because now we live longer than we used to.

对。但事实证明，实际上并非如此。哪部分？哪部分不是？这些都不成立。好吧。

Right. But it turns out, actually, that's not the case. Which part? Which Which part is is not the None of that is true. Okay.

在古代，人们也能活到70岁左右。

In ancient times, people also lived to be about 70.

真的吗？

Really?

是啊。

Yeah.

我还以为只有像皇室成员那样受到精心照料的人才能活那么久。不是的。

I just thought it was like the only people who did were like royals who were highly attended to. No.

关键在于，我们看到的这些平均预期寿命数字很有意思。嗯。这个平均值考虑了人们在五岁前就夭折的情况——比如死于难产或婴儿疾病。

The light so there's this interesting thing where, like, we get these average life expectancy numbers. Mhmm. And the average is taken into account the fact that people die before, like, the age of five because they die in childbirth. They die of infant diseases.

哦，这就像个偏斜的平均值。对。没错。哇。

Oh, it's like a skewed average. Yeah. Exactly. Woah.

所以如果你考虑到这一点，你会发现许多女性实际上在无法生育后还活了二十年、二十五年甚至三十年。也就是说，人类经历更年期这件事，从人类诞生之初就存在了。

So if you account for that, you see that many women were in fact living twenty, twenty five years, thirty years after they could no longer reproduce. So humans have been going through menopause, like, for the entire history of humans.

更年期确实是件大事。就像过山车，懂吗？情绪和身体的双重过山车。

And it's a thing, menopause. It's a roller coaster. You know? It's an emotional and physical roller coaster.

回到露西的例子，她说自己进入更年期的过程相当残酷。

And back to Lucy, she says that going into menopause for her was pretty brutal.

比如潮热和暴怒的情绪。

I mean, hot sweats and furious moods.

对很多女性来说确实很残酷。但她也说过

And it's pretty brutal for a lot of women. But she also says

一旦它...我当时

Once it it's I was

本来想说像冰手指，但完全不是冰冷的感觉。更像是滚烫的手指抓住了我。

gonna say it's icy fingers, but it's anything but icy. Once it's hot fingers got ahold of me.

她心底始终有个疑问，那就是

She did have in the back of her mind this question, which was

为什么？为什么我还活着？

Why? Why was I still alive?

这是个问题。

That's a question.

是啊，这种说法相当激烈。但关于更年期的问题——

Yeah. It's a pretty intense way to put it. But the thing about menopause

你知道，我是说，虽然现在媒体大量报道，大家也都能公开讨论。但我母亲那一代人，没人谈论这个。

You know, I mean, it's I mean, I know it gets a lot of press now, and everybody's allowed to talk about it. My mother's generation, no one did.

长久以来，它一直被科学界和文化领域完全忽视。嗯。可能正因如此，我认为很多女性最终会感到自己无足轻重或毫无价值。

For such a long time, it's been completely ignored by science, by culture. Mhmm. And probably partly because of that, I do think a lot of women end up feeling invisible or useless.

知道吗？月经停止后，你就变得无关紧要了，就像一滩...嗯...毫无意义的灰色泥潭，懂吗？

You know, you were just sort of irrelevant after going after your period stopped, you know, and you were kind of Yeah. This sort of, you know, kind of gray puddle of of purposelessness, you know?

所以露西

So Lucy

所以当我听说虎鲸也会经历更年期时

So when I heard that killer whales went through menopause

这感觉像是个机会，可以用一种更科学的方式来探讨她生命中的这个阶段意味着什么。

It felt like a chance to ask what is this time in her life for in a kinda different, more scientific way.

没错，这些都是非常重要的问题。而且有很多...所以这是...

Yeah. So the these are really big questions. And there are number So this is

一位名叫达伦·克罗夫特的科学家。

a scientist named Darren Croft.

我是埃克塞特大学动物行为学的教授。

I am professor of animal behavior at the University of Exeter.

他隶属于一个庞大的研究团队，这个团队已经研究这些虎鲸长达数十年之久。

He's part of this huge team that's been studying these killer whales for for, like, decades now.

因此积累了关于它们行为模式和迁徙路线的极其丰富的数据资料。

And and so there's this incredible, rich amount of data on their behavior and their and their movements.

科学家们日复一日观察这些鲸鱼后发现，它们的行为中蕴含着...

And so what the scientists watching these whales day in, day out have seen is that There's a lot

强烈的目的性，我们现在已经确认这一点。这些雌鲸拥有复杂的社会生活。

of purpose, and we know that now. These females have rich social lives.

这些社会行为完全可以用冰冷强硬的进化逻辑来解释。比如贾尔斯和达伦向我们讲述过一头名叫...

Lives that can make sense in, like, a cold, hard evolutionary logic kind of way. So for example, Giles and Darren told us about this one particular female killer whale named

格兰妮的雌性虎鲸，它可能是世界上最著名的野生虎鲸。

Granny, who's possibly the most famous wild killer whale in the world.

格兰妮是头令人惊叹的鲸鱼，它至少活到了八十多岁高龄，甚至可能达到105岁。

Granny, she was just an astonishing whale who lived to be at least into her late eighties, possibly as old as a 105.

根据达伦和贾尔斯的记录，直到生命的...

And according to Darren and Giles, all the way up to the

最后时刻，它都保持着对生活的热忱。

end She had this zest for life.

是啊。那看起来是什么样子？

Yeah. What does that look like?

社交、觅食、跃身击浪、拍打尾巴。

Socializing, foraging, breaching, tail slapping.

听起来确实充满活力。

It does sound zesty Yeah.

作为一种生活状态。没错。

For being a life. Yeah.

特别是科学家们注意到她实际上是个杀手奶奶。

And in particular, the scientists noticed she's actually a killer grandma.

会携带、玩耍并照顾刚出生的幼鲸。

Carried and played with and babysat brand new babies.

因为虎鲸群体通常的运作方式是

Because the way these groups of killer whales usually work is

子女会留在母亲的家族中。

Sons and daughters stay in their mom's household.

所以奶奶是这个多代同堂的鲸群中的一员。

So Granny's part of this sort of multigenerational pod.

是的。我们的同事用无人机拍摄到奶奶帮忙将鱼群驱赶向她曾孙辈幼鲸的画面。

Yes. Our colleagues capture drone imagery of Granny helping to corral a fish towards her great grand calf.

当达伦和他的同事研究这些虎鲸时，他们发现那些有绝经后祖母陪伴的幼鲸——比如不再生育的鲸鱼奶奶们——

When Darren and his colleagues did a study of these killer whales, they found that the whales that had postmenopausal grandmas around, like granny Whales who aren't having babies of their own anymore.

对。

Right.

好的。当这些祖母鲸仍在世时，幼鲸的存活率比那些没有祖母或祖母仍处于育龄期的虎鲸更高。这说得通吗？

Okay. When those ones were still around, the young had higher chances of survival than the whales who had no grandmas or even had grandmas who were premenopausal. Does that make sense?

所以无法再生育的祖母比仍在生育的祖母更有帮助。

So the grandmas who couldn't have babies anymore were more helpful than the grandmas who were still having babies.

没错。这实际上为人类思考已久的'祖母假说'提供了有力支持。

Right. And this actually gave, like, a lot of support to an idea that people have been thinking about in terms of humans actually for a while. The grandmother hypothesis.

我好像经常听到祖母假说，但都不确定它具体是什么原理。

I feel like I hear a lot about the grandmother hypothesis, but I'm not even sure I know how it works.

是啊。其实就是我们刚在虎鲸身上看到的模式。

Yeah. Right. But it's basically what we just learned with the whales.

该假说的核心在于：已过生育期的雌性对孙辈存活率起着重要作用。

The hypothesis there is what's important is that post reproductive females play an important role in the survival of their grand offspring.

作为一个两岁孩子的家长，我深切感受到——虽然这只是个例不具科学性——我母亲确实提供了难以置信的帮助，这种假说确实有其合理性。

There's something that makes a lot of I'll just say as a person with a two year old child, like, makes a lot of sense to me. Like, you know, like, my mother is just, like, incredibly helpful and useful. I mean, that's data point of one. It's not scientific, but we feel how this is, like, makes some amount of sense to be true.

确实如此。

Yes. Yeah.

所以这个假说就像是在说，你的进化目的就是成为母亲，即使你不再担任母亲的角色。

So this hypothesis is just like your evolutionary purpose is to be a mom even if you are no longer being a mom.

是的。我是说，这有点像文化上的共识。我们大多数人都会这么想，如果你之前听说过这个的话。嗯。但当你观察鲸鱼时，情况远不止于此。

Yeah. I mean, that's kind of the cultural takeaway. That's like what most of us think of, if you've ever heard of this before. Mhmm. But when you look at the whales, it goes way beyond that.

比如，年长的雌性虎鲸，实际上有点像是在掌控全局。

Like, the older killer whale female, she's actually kind of running the show.

我是说，很明显奶奶是负责的那个，是所有母系首领中的母系首领。

I mean, was clear that granny was the one in charge, the matriarch of all matriarchs.

它们扮演外交官或和平维护者的角色，尤其是与年轻的雄性鲸鱼相处时。

They played diplomat or keeper of the peace, especially with the younger male whale.

雌性，尤其是过了生育期的雌性，会介入成年儿子的生活，确保他们不会因为打闹过度而受伤。

Females, especially post reproductive females, are intervening in the lives of their adult sons, making sure that they're not roughhousing enough to get injured.

但它们同时也是首席猎手，

But also they're like hunter in chief,

带领族群寻找食物来喂养大家。

leading the pod to find food to feed everybody.

奶奶和她的家族基本上一直都只吃鲑鱼。

Granny and her family have basically always exclusively eaten salmon.

但现在那些鲑鱼很难找到了，因为它们被人类过度捕捞。但奶奶，凭借

But those salmon are really hard to find now because they've been hunted by humans. But Granny, with

她那重达11磅的超强大脑，能记住大约二十五年前的事情。

her 11 pound super intelligent brain, she can remember things from like twenty five years ago.

是啊。二十五年前的这个时候，确实有一群鲑鱼曾沿着海岸线中段一条随机的小支流逆流而上。

Yeah. You know, twenty five years ago, at this time of year, there was a bunch of salmon that did go up this random little tributary halfway up the coast.

科学家们观察鲸群捕猎时，几乎能亲眼见证这一幕上演。

And the scientists could like literally see this play out as they were watching the whales on these hunts.

格兰妮只要开始用尾巴拍打水面，所有鲸鱼就会像听到号令般——哗啦一声。格兰妮在召唤，我们要往她指引的方向去。这是我们过去常能见到的场景。

Granny would just start slapping her tail on the water and, like, all the whales would go like, whoop. Granny's calling. We're gonna go in the direction that she wants us all to go. That was something that we used to get to see quite often.

即便在她耗费了

And even after she spent

四五十分钟甚至一小时捕鱼后，要知道，她仍在坚持，尽管她自己肯定也饿极了。

forty five minutes or even an hour trying to catch a fish, you know, continuing, even though she was most assuredly hungry herself.

孩子说她曾目睹她

Child said she would see her

将鱼咬成两半有时甚至三份，让家族成员过来取食。

Bite the fish in half or sometimes even in thirds and have family members come over to grab that fish.

所以这些绝经后的雌鲸，或许不再为

So the postmenopausal female whales, they might not be adding more of their genes to

基因库贡献自己的基因，但她们可没闲坐着修指甲看肥皂剧。

the gene pool, but They're not sitting around filing their nails and watching daytime soap operas.

它们对族群的生存简直至关重要。

They're like totally crucial to the survival of the group.

这些雌性虎鲸是生态智慧的宝库。它们维系着整个狩猎群体的存续。

These orca females are the repositories for ecological wisdom. They're keeping their hunting community alive.

这会让您联想到自己作为女性的经历吗？每次我问科学家这个问题时，他们都说别问这个。但我想知道，当您凝视虎鲸的眼睛，想到祖母鲸时，是否改变了什么？

Does it make you think about your experience as a woman? I mean, if whenever I ask scientists this question, they're like, don't ask this question. It's so but I guess did, like, see looking the orca in the eye and thinking about granny change anything for you?

说实话我可能不该回答这个问题，但我还是决定——

Do you know, I probably shouldn't answer this question, but I will. I'll give

给你一个答案

you an I'll give you

坦诚相告吧。它们确实深深触动了我。我真的很庆幸自己努力去见了吉尔斯博士，了解到进化赋予这些雌性如此有意义的漫长生命，这让我对生育能力丧失有了新的认知。如今我的价值在于智慧、头脑和能传授给他人的经验——这种认知让我充满力量。

an honest answer because I did. I felt incredibly moved by them. I I really did. I felt very I was really pleased that I made the effort, and I went there and I spent time with doctor Giles and, you know, understanding how evolution had granted these females these long lives with such purpose made me think differently about my loss of fertility. And I found the idea that my value now was in my wisdom and my brain and the things that I can teach other people really empowering.

而不是感觉自己像滩逐渐失去存在感的灰色泥浆。这完全是相反的体验，让我想成为更——

As opposed to feeling like you're a gray puddle that's, you know, decreasing relevance in the world and, you know Yeah. It it it's the kind of it's it's the opposite. You know, in every way, I was like, be more

像虎鲸一样。

orca.

没错。

Yeah.

更何况年长雌鲸们还有丰富的性生活呢。

Plus the fact that the older females are having tons of sex.

我是说，这听起来很棒。对吧。我超爱成为虎鲸这个点子。

I mean, that sounds great. Right. I love the idea of, like, being an orca.

但我骨子里就是抗拒那种必须要有用的观念，不管是当看护者还是首席猎手之类的角色。

But there is something in me that, like, just sort of fundamentally chafes at the idea that I have to be useful in some way, like whether that's like being a caretaker or being like a hunter in chief.

确实。

Right.

就好像如果我不生孩子，就得不断证明自己的价值。

Like, it's like I always have to prove my worth Well if I'm not there to have babies.

你听了应该会开心——科学界对更年期不止这一种解释。广告回来后，我要告诉你另一种动物的情况...我觉得你可能会喜欢这个例子。

I think you'll be kind of happy to hear that, you know, that's not the only idea that science has about menopause. When we come back from break, I'm gonna tell you about another animal that's I don't know. I think you might like this one.

大家好，我是露露。这是BetterHelp的广告。每天似乎都有新方法宣称能带来心理健康：冰浴、瑜伽、感恩日记、心理咨询、养宠物...这些都很好，但怎么知道哪个适合你？借助可信资源非常重要。

Hi. This is Lulu, and this is an ad by BetterHelp. It can feel like every day, there's a new claim about what will finally bring you mental wellness and harmony. Cold plunges, yoga, gratitude journals, therapy, pets, all sound great, but how do you actually know what works for you? Using trusted resources is so important.

知道什么是最可靠的心理健康资源吗？就是真实存在、会呼吸会思考的心理咨询师。他们能帮你找到专属的前进道路。我个人既爱冰浴也爱心理咨询，咨询无数次帮我设定更好界限，成为更善于沟通的人。

And you know what is the most trusted resource for your mental health? Your own real living and breathing and thinking therapist. Someone who can help you find your specific path forward. I, for one, am a lover of cold plunges and a lover of therapy. It has helped me countless times with setting better boundaries, becoming a better communicator.

心理咨询适合所有人。作为全球最大在线心理咨询平台，BetterHelp提供多元化的专业心理服务。点击按钮就能开始咨询，轻松融入忙碌生活，且随时可更换咨询师。

Therapy is for anyone. As the largest online therapy provider in the world, BetterHelp can provide access to mental health professionals with a diverse variety of expertise. Talk it out with BetterHelp. It's convenient too. You can join a session with a therapist at the click of a button, helping you fit therapy into your busy life, and you can switch therapists at any time.

Radialab听众首月可享9折优惠，请访问betterhelp.com/radialab。重复一遍：betterhelp.com/radialab。

Radialab listeners get 10% off their first month at betterhelp.com/radialab. That's better,help,.com/radialab.

Radio Lab由Capital One赞助。Capital One银行免除支票账户管理费和透支费，帮您留住更多钱。问问Capital One银行小哥就知道——他总爱聊这个（当然是褒义），他还会告诉你Radio Lab是他最爱的播客。

Radio Lab is supported by Capital One. Banking with Capital One helps you keep more money in your wallet with no fees or minimums on checking accounts and no overdraft fees. Just ask the Capital One bank guy. It's pretty much all he talks about in a good way. He'd also tell you that Radio Lab is his favorite podcast too.

哦，真的吗？谢谢，Capital One银行的伙计。你的钱包里有什么？条款适用。详情请见capitalone.com/bank。

Oh, really? Thanks, Capital One bank guy. What's in your wallet? Terms apply. See capitalone.com/bank.

CapitalOne NA。FDIC成员。

CapitalOne NA. Member FDIC.

为什么人们要信任数字？

Why should anybody trust numbers?

总统在解雇劳工统计局负责人后如是说，原因是他准确报告了就业数据。

Said the president right after he fired the head of the Bureau of Labor Statistics for accurately reporting the jobs numbers.

我认为这些数字是虚假的，就像选举前一样，因为

I believe the numbers were phony just like they were before the election as there

还有其他时候。所以你知道我做了什么吗？我解雇了她。

were other times. So you know what I did? I fired her.

总统本周在WNYC的《On the Media》节目中实施的事实消除计划。

The president's fact eradication project on this week's On the Media from WNYC.

好的。我们回到这期节目的第二部分。

Alright. We're back for the second part of this episode.

是的。好吧。让我们来回顾一下。

Yep. Okay. So let's let's recap.

喜欢回顾环节。

Love a recap.

我们在讨论更年期，嗯。以及它有多奇怪。非常奇怪。我们曾长期以为只有人类会经历更年期。后来科学家们发现了虎鲸也有。

We're talking about menopause Mhmm. And how it's super weird. Totally weird. We thought for a long time we're the only ones who did it. And then scientists learned about orcas.

没错。科学家开始观察它们，某种程度上认为，哦，也许我们正在解开这个进化谜题。

Right. And scientists started watching them, and they sort of thought, oh, maybe we're solving this evolutionary puzzle.

关于为什么我们会经历更年期。

Of, like, why we have menopause.

关于为什么会有更年期。但可能并非如此。

Of why we have menopause. But maybe not so much.

让我来详细解释一下。

So let me unpack that.

所以，再次提到这个人，凯文·朗格拉伯。

So, again, this is this guy, Kevin Langergraber.

我们真的深入到细节中了

We're really getting into the weeds here for the this

他们之前没提到关于凯文的一个重要细节是，过去25年里，他每年都会花时间过着他所谓的‘黑猩猩生活’，参与一个名为恩戈戈黑猩猩项目的研究。

One important detail they didn't mention before about Kevin is that every year for the past twenty five years, Kevin has spent time living what he calls Chimp life. Working on this thing called the Ngogo chimpanzee project.

这是一个对某一黑猩猩群落进行的长期研究。地点在乌干达西南部，几乎就在基巴莱国家公园的正中心。

Which is a long term study of this one community of chimpanzees. It's in Southwestern Uganda. Pretty much smack dab in the middle of Kibali National Park.

想象一下

So picture like

巨大无比的树。

Huge, huge trees.

还有开阔的森林地面。

And a wide open forest floor.

就像，一个开放的公园。

Like, an open park.

在那里，每一天

Where every single day

早上起床。吃早餐喝咖啡。太阳刚刚开始升起。那时你就想出发去寻找黑猩猩。然后

Get up in the morning. Have your breakfast and your coffee. The sun is just starting to to come up. That's when you wanna leave and go find the chimps. And

他接下来的一整天都在观察它们。

then he spends the rest of his day just watching them.

基本上，你就是在记录它们的行为。

Basically, you're writing down what they do.

它们互相梳理毛发。它们狩猎。它们进食。嗯。所以从他在那里的最初阶段开始，凯文就注意到年长雌性黑猩猩的一些有趣现象。

They're grooming. They're hunting. They're eating. Mhmm. So kind of right from the beginning of his time there, Kevin started to notice something interesting about the older female chimps.

好的。

Okay.

比如加尔波就是个例子。

Like Garbo, for example.

她是默片时代的一个老派角色。

She's an old timey silent movie character.

对，没错，完全正确。

Yeah. Exactly. Exactly.

这位女性现在大约72岁了。

This this female who who now is about 72 years old.

不可能吧，72岁？那差不多和我妈妈同龄了。

No way. 72? That's, like, my my mom's age.

是的，凯文其实从嘉宝大约50岁的时候就认识她了。

Yeah. Kevin's actually known Garbo from the very beginning since she was about 50.

好吧。

Okay.

那时候

At which point

她已经有了成年的孩子。

She already had adult kids.

但在过去25年里，他从未见过她生孩子。

But for the last twenty five years, he's never seen her have a baby.

但问题是，你知道吧？过了生育年龄的人确实存在。总会有那么些不再生育的年长女性。

But here's the thing. You know? Post reproductive individuals, they exist. You know? There's always, like, the occasional old female who doesn't reproduce anymore.

但凯文想弄清楚的是，加波只是个例，还是这种现象正发生在更多黑猩猩身上而不仅限于她？

But the thing Kevin wanted to figure out was, like, is garbo an anomaly, or is this something that's happening to more chimps than just her?

没错。

Exactly.

为了查明真相，他必须收集

And to get to the bottom of that, he had to collect

生物样本。

Biological samples.

好吧，又回到粪便话题了。

Okay. Back to poop.

不，不是粪便。是尿液。

No. Not poop. Pee.

对，尿液。尿液。尿液。

Yeah. Urine. Urine. Urine.

当然没有贬低粪便样本的意思。

No shade to poop samples, obviously.

实际上尿液采集比粪便样本更容易，因为它们排尿次数远多于排便。

Urine collection is actually easier than fecal sample collection because they pee a lot more than they poo.

不过我不确定是否容易，因为凯文要做的是

I don't know about easy, though, because what Kevin has to do is

如果你从森林里捡到一根树枝。想象一根大约三英尺长的树枝。

Is you get a stick from the forest. Picture a stick that's about three feet long.

它看起来有点像字母Y的形状。

And it looks kind of like a y.

有点像一把奇怪的干草叉之类的。

Sort of like a weird pitchfork or something.

好的。然后他在Y形顶端套上一个小塑料袋。

Okay. And he puts a little plastic bag on the end of the y.

当黑猩猩在树上时，它们会朝你撒尿，这时你就要把树枝伸出去——要远离自己，这样才不会让太多尿淋到自己头上之类的地方。

And then when the chimps are up in a tree, they're they're peeing down on you, and you stick your stick out, you know, away from you so that you don't collect too much pee yourself, you know, on your head and stuff.

你要让尿流正好对准你的树枝。

And you get the stream of pee to connect with your stick.

然后尿液就会装满那个袋子。这可是高端科学。

And then it fills up that that bag. This is highbrow science.

这些尿液样本就像鲸鱼粪便一样，能告诉你很多关于单个黑猩猩身体状况的信息。嗯。比如加尔波。

Now these pee samples, they're sort of like the whale poop. They can tell you a lot about what's happening in the bodies of individual chimps. Mhmm. Like Garbo, for example.

你就等着加尔波撒尿。当它尿的时候，你最好做好准备。

You're just waiting for Garbo to pee. And then when she does, you'd better be ready.

所以当凯文分析她和其他老年雌性黑猩猩的样本时

So when Kevin analyzed her samples and the samples of the other older female chimps

我们发现，可以说是铁证如山的迹象，这种级别的证据我们很少能遇到。

We found, you know, smoking gun sort of level of signs that we rarely get.

因为通过观察生殖激素水平

Because looking at the levels of reproductive hormones

很容易就能判断出来，没错。

It was really just easy to tell that Yep.

雌性黑猩猩

Female chimps

加波和其他年长雌性经历了更年期。是的。

Garbo and these other old females through menopause. Yes.

我是说，它们确实会经历更年期。这与人类的经历非常相似。哦，至少我们认为是这样。凯文特意提到，我无法证实它们是否有潮热症状。

And I mean, like, they go through menopause. It's very similar to the human experience Oh. Or at least we think it is. Kevin was very careful to mention that, like, I can't speak to hot flashes.

不，没错。我也无法证实某些身体症状或情绪波动。但确实存在激素停止分泌的现象。

No. Right. Like, I can't speak to some of the physical symptoms or, like, the emotional swings. Right. But, like, there's a hormone cessation.

对，没错。

Right. Right.

是的。这种激素停止的模式与人类非常相似，基本上是一个逐渐减少的过程。哇。之后它们还能继续生活数十年，就像人类和鲸鱼一样。

Right. And that cessation, it's pretty similar to the pattern in humans. It's like a ramping down, basically. Wow. And after that, they just keep on living their lives for decades sometimes, just like humans and just like the whales.

然后就有三个物种了。没错。嗯，差不多吧。实际上在进行虎鲸研究时，他们还发现其他几种与虎鲸非常相似的鲸类也会经历更年期。

And then there were three. Yeah. Exactly. Well, sort of. Actually, when they did all that orca research, they actually found out that there were a handful of other whales that are really similar to orcas that also go through menopause.

就像独角鲸那样。独角鲸？没错。但黑猩猩是我们已知的第三种经历绝经后长寿的主要动物群体。

So like narwhals. Narwhals? Yeah. But chimps are the third major animal group we know of that experience this long life after menopause.

嘉宝是不是也在挠头思考，绝经后的生活意义何在？

It's is Garbo also scratching her head, asking what life is for after menopause?

不，她没有。

No. She's not.

但凯文肯定在思考这个问题。

But Kevin definitely is.

让我们一起来想想看。

Let's let's think about it.

好的，我来给你描绘一下嘉宝的生活状态。嗯哼。在停止生育前，她有三个儿子。

Okay. So I'm gonna, like, paint you a picture of what Garbo's life is like. Mhmm. Okay. So before she stopped having babies, she had three sons.

蒙克、里士满和哈奇森。

Monk, Richmond, and Hutcherson.

话说他们为什么不给取个史蒂夫之类的普通名字？感觉特别像老钱家族。就是啊，谁起的这些名字？好吧。

By the way, why don't they name them, like, Steve or something? It feels very like old money. I know. Like, who came up with it? Okay.

蒙克和里士满其实已经不在世了，但我们不妨想象他们都还活着的时光。因为简而言之，嘉宝日常生活的重要部分就是和儿子们相处。

So Monk and Richmond actually aren't alive anymore, but let's just, like, imagine a time when they all were alive. Because, like, long story short, a big part of Garbo's day is hanging out with her sons.

她和哈奇森、里士满的关系都挺不错的。

She had, like, you know, a good relationship with with both Hutcherson and Richmond.

那Monk呢？

What about Monk?

不，Monk，她讨厌Monk。

No. The Monk, she hated Monk.

哦，就像，他们直到做了基因检测才知道彼此有血缘关系。然后他们才意识到，哦，原来她有三个儿子，不是两个。真是丑闻啊。是的，该死的Garbo。

Oh, like, they didn't even know they were related until they did the genetic testing. And they were like, oh, I guess she had three sons, not just two. Scandal. Yeah. Dang Garbo.

该死的Garbo。总之，一整天，Garbo、Hutcherson和Richmond都会在一起。

Dang Garbo. Anyway, so all day, Garbo, Hutcherson, and Richmond would be together.

Richmond和Hutcherson经常给Garbo梳理毛发。

Richmond and Hutcherson would groom Garbo a lot.

比如，用手指梳理她的毛发，挑出虫子，还有抓挠她的小背。太有爱了。她会完全陶醉其中。

Like, kind of running their fingers through her hair and picking out bugs and, like, scratching her little back. Love it. And she would totally bliss out.

就像，进入一种非常禅意的状态。你知道，我现在秃了，但我记得以前去理发店剪头发时，能感觉到理发师的手在头皮上移动。我就会完全放空。

Like, zone out in this really zen like state. It's like, you know, I'm bald now, but I remember when I used to go to the hairdresser and get my haircut, and you could feel like the hairdresser running their hands through your scalp. I would just zone out and

还有，Richmond和Hutcherson会给Garbo带食物。

Also, Richmond and Hutcherson would bring food to Garbo.

你知道的，和Garbo分享肉。

You know, share meat with Garbo.

猴子肉。黑猩猩吃猴子肉？是的，这是黑猩猩的美味。嗯。

Monkey meat. Chimps eat monkey meats? Yeah. It's a chimp delicacy. Mhmm.

他们很喜欢猴子肉。

They love a monkey meat.

好吧。

Okay.

如果拍成电影版，他们会用银盘子盛着肉献给她，像在致敬一样。

In the movie version of this, they would bring it to her on, like, a silver platter and honor her.

我是说，我脑子里就是这么想象的。那是不是意味着她不用自己捕猎？对。还有——

I mean, that's what's happening in my head. So that does that mean she doesn't have to hunt for herself? Right. Also

如果有人对嘉宝表现出攻击性，你知道，里士满和哈奇森通常会赶走他们，保护他们的母亲。

If someone would be aggressive to to Garbo, often, you know, Richmond and Hutcherson would, like, chase them off, you know, protecting their mother.

嗯哼。就这样。嘉宝只做这些。所以我注意到这里你们没听到的是——

Uh-huh. And that's it. That's all that Garbo does. So I kind of notice here what you're not hearing.

完全没有祖母应有的行为。

No real grandmothering behavior.

所以嘉宝不会给孙辈烤圣诞饼干？

So Garbo is not making Christmas cookies for her grandchildren?

是的，她不会。

No. She's not.

她对年轻一代没有任何付出。实际上对任何人都没有。哦，真的吗？好吧。她可不太乐于助人。

She's not doing anything toward the youth. Or really towards anyone. Oh, really? Okay. She's not super helpful.

天啊。那那正是梦想中的场景。

God. That's that's the dream.

我想成为一只年迈的雌猩猩。没错。因为

I wanna be a old lady chimp. Yeah. And so because The

祖母假说似乎并不适用于黑猩猩。

grandmother hypothesis doesn't seem to apply to chimps.

凯文和其他一些科学家开始研究，比如，这里到底发生了什么？

Kevin and a bunch of the other scientists started looking into, like, what is going on here?

是的。第二个最著名的假说被称为生殖冲突假说。生殖冲突假说。我喜欢

Yeah. The second most prominent hypothesis is called this reproductive conflict hypothesis. The reproductive conflict hypothesis. I love

我们从听起来充满温情的祖母假说，转向了生殖冲突假说。生殖冲突。好吧，请耐心听我说，因为从某些方面来看，它可能恰恰相反，或者不完全是你想象的那样。

that we've gone from, like, the grandmother hypothesis, which feels so loving, to Reproductive. Reproductive conflict. Well, bear with me because in some ways, it's maybe the opposite, or it's maybe not quite what you think it's going to be.

我喜欢这个。继续。

I love that. Go.

好的。这个理论本身有点复杂。但核心观点是，在黑猩猩雌性组建家庭的方式中，隐藏着一种微妙的进化计算。

Okay. And the theory itself is, like, a little bit convoluted. But the big idea is that there's a sort of subtle evolutionary calculation hidden in the way chimpanzee females set up their families.

在黑猩猩中，雄性一生都留在它们的群体里。

In chimpanzees, males stay in their group for their whole lives.

但雌性，也就是女儿们，在进入青春期后会离开自己的家庭群体，加入另一个群体。

But the females, the daughters, when they hit puberty, they leave their family group to join another one.

这么做的普遍原因是为了避免近亲繁殖，对吧？

The general reason for this is, like, avoid inbreeding. Right?

对。所以想象一下这个场景。

Right. So think of this.

想象你是一只雌性黑猩猩。你出生在一个群体里。

Think of it you're a female chimp. You're born in one group.

然后当你长到12、13岁左右。嗯哼。

Then you hit, like, 12 or 13. Mhmm.

你会离开原来的群体，加入一个新群体开始生育后代。

You disperse to a new group where you wanna start having kids.

当你刚进入这个新家庭时，你和周围的成员都没有血缘关系。你和他们不共享任何基因。

When you first get into that new family, you're not related to anybody around you. You don't share genes with anyone.

但当你生下第一个孩子，假设是个雄性幼崽。

But as you have your first kid, let's say you have a male.

这时你就有了第一个有血缘关系的家庭成员——继承了你的基因的儿子

Then you have one family member, your son, who does have your

它逐渐长大，又有了自己的孩子。

It eventually grows up. It has its own kids.

那些孩子也携带着你的基因。

Those kids have your genes.

所以你只是与群体成员建立更多联系。

So you're just getting more related to group members.

随着你成长为一只年长的雌性黑猩猩。好的。现在让我们稍微宏观地看一下。

As you grow into an older female chimp. Okay. So now to zoom out a little bit.

那么为什么这被称为生殖冲突假说？

Now here's the why is it called the reproductive conflict hypothesis?

如果你观察这只雌性黑猩猩所属的更大群体

If you look at the larger group that the chimp female is part of

嗯。资源是有限的。如果你有了孩子，就意味着群体中其他雌性无法生育。

Mhmm. There's a limited amount of resources. And if you have a kid, that means that some other female in your group can't have a kid.

是的。这就是基础生态学的运作方式。对吧。

Yeah. It's just how basic ecology works. Right.

繁殖是零和游戏。所以雌性之间存在生殖冲突。

Reproduction is a zero sum game. So there's reproductive conflict between females.

因此如果你是这只年长的雌性黑猩猩，环顾四周，可能会发现刚加入家族的新年轻雌性，你会想

And so if you're this older female chimp and you're looking around, maybe there are, like, new young females that have just joined your family, and you're like

下一个孩子会是谁的？是我还是这只年轻雌性？嗯。如果这只年轻雌性生育，她会和谁繁衍后代？很可能就是我的儿子与这只年轻雌性结合。

Who's gonna have the next kid? Me or this young female? Mhmm. If this young female has this kid, who's she gonna have it with? Well, it could be my son that has the kid with this young female.

对吧？

Right?