生命之火

哦，等等。你在听呢，好的。

Oh, wait. You're listen Okay.

好的。明白了。没问题。

Alright. Okay. Alright.

你正在收听 收听中

You are listening Listening

Radiolab Radiolab。来自

Radiolab Radiolab. From

WNY 明白了吗？是的。

WNY See? Yep.

等等。等等。我现在在发光吗？

Wait. Wait. Am I glowing right now?

你确实在发光。没错。

You certainly are. Yeah.

大家好，这里是Radiolab。我是莫莉·韦伯斯特。我学生物专业时，可能只需要修一门物理课，之后就再也没想过它。科学领域往往就是这样。

Hey. This is Radiolab. I'm Molly Webster. So I was a bio major, and we had to take maybe one physics class, and then we never thought about it again. And this is often how it goes in the sciences.

一边是生物学，涉及环境、动物、我们的身体，那些有机而复杂的物质；另一边则是物理学，全是抽象的概念，比如波、能量、看不见的粒子。

You've got biology, the environment, animals, our bodies, the kind of organic messy physical stuff. That's on one side. And then you have physics, all the abstract stuff, waves, energy, invisible particles, that's all on the other side.

我知道怎么用这些。

I know how to use these.

它们感觉就像是两个截然不同的世界。

They very much feel like two different worlds.

开始前我能问你几个问题吗？

Can I ask you a couple questions before we get started?

你可以问我很多问题。但对纳罗莎·马鲁甘来说，这两者是密不可分的。

You can ask me so many questions. But for Narosha Marugan, they go hand in hand.

我是纳罗莎·马鲁甘，来自加拿大滑铁卢的应用生物物理学家。大多数生物物理学家主要研究生物领域，而我则喜欢两者各占一半。

I'm Narosha Marugan, an applied biophysicist from Waterloo, Canada. I most biophysicists look at mostly bio. I'm on the other end who likes to be fifty fifty.

通过与Neurosha的交谈，我今天要分享的内容无疑是一次对未知领域的探索，但它始于一个关于生物体——无论是细菌、仙人掌还是人类——如何运作的简单理念。这个理念让我思考我们在世界上留下的印记。因此，我们将从Neurosha的学生时代讲起。

What I learned from talking to Neurosha and what you're going to hear in our conversation today, it is definitely a leap into the unknown, but it starts with a very simple idea about how living things, bacteria, cactuses, humans, whatever, how they do what they do. And it's an idea that made me think about the kind of mark we leave on the world. So we're gonna start with Neuroscience as a student.

我可以告诉你研究生时期的一个具体时刻。当时我住在宿舍做土豆泥时烫伤了自己。不知为何，我觉得这个过程异常奇妙——关于烫伤的信息如何迅速传递全身并让我缩回手。

I mean, I can tell you a very specific moment in grad school that Tell me. When I was living in the dorms and I was making mashed potatoes and I burnt myself. And then I don't know why I thought this, but I thought it was really exciting. Yeah. How quickly that information of me burning my hand went into my body for me to move my hand.

这个信号必须沿手臂上传，引发一系列变化后又传回手臂末端才能完成缩手动作。想想那些分子间的相互作用。

Like, that signal had to go up my arm. Things had to change and move all the way back down my arm for me to remove it. Mhmm. Think of the molecular interactions.

Neurosha描述她当时站在那儿，思考皮肤、神经和脊椎里所有微小分子的运动：蛋白质相互碰撞、交互作用，传递着'烫伤-疼痛'的信号，直到抵达脊椎，然后返回'移动-缩手'的指令。

Neurosha says she was standing there thinking about all the little molecules in her skin and nerves and spine, all these proteins bumping into each other, interacting, and passing along a signal, burn, ow, Until it reached her spine, and then a signal goes back. More proteins bumping into each other, interacting, signaling. Move. Move your hand. Move your hand.

整个过程在瞬息间完成，突然显得如此不可思议。

Back down her arm all in a split second, and suddenly, it just seemed impossible.

蛋白质具有特定形状，这决定了其功能。细胞表面有我们称为受体的蛋白质，它们的形状决定了只有当蛋白质与受体发生物理性嵌合时——

When we think about a protein, proteins have a very specific shape, and that shape determines their function. So when you think of a cell doing it what it needs to do, on the surface of a cell, there are other proteins, which is what we call receptors. And those receptors have a shape to them. And for them

才会触发细胞活动。我们常用'锁钥机制'来比喻这种生物学现象：特定形状的蛋白质像钥匙般插入受体锁孔，从而启动细胞反应。

to interact, there needs to be a physical interaction of that protein into the receptor. Yeah. There's there's this shorthand that we use for talking about biology, which is that a lock and a key go together, and that, like, makes things happen in the cell. Correct. So so something so, like, something is a shape and it fits into a hole.

就这么简单。这是生物分子相互作用的基本原理。但想到所有这些只为找到一个特定分子的完美受体，似乎太容易了。真的吗？

It's as simple. That's the fundamental basis of biomolecular interactions. But thinking about all that for that one specific molecule to find that perfect receptor just seemed like it was too easy. Really?

是啊。我当时的反应是，哇哦。难怪你学生物比我强。因为我当时想的是，我不知道。就像有个锁。

Yeah. I like, wow. This is why you were a better bio student than I was. Because I was like, I don't know. There's a lock.

有把钥匙。一个是锁的形状，一个是钥匙的形状。钥匙插进锁里。就这么飘过去。

There's a key. Like, one of them is the lock shape. One of them is the key shape. The key goes into the lock. It's just floating along.

然后找到了。

It finds it.

所以这正是让我觉得不对劲的模型。想象你是个拿着大串钥匙的保洁员。如何在正确时间内找到对应锁的正确钥匙来触发信号？你得试遍所有钥匙，通过随机概率迭代尝试，直到形状和空间都匹配。

So that that's exactly that's the model that didn't sit well with me. So imagine you're one of those, like, janitors with, a big ring of keys. How do you find that right key for the right lock in the right amount of time to induce signaling? You gotta go through all those keys. You gotta try, iterate through random probability and get the right shape in the right space.

对。而且如果

Yeah. And with also, if

你想想细胞内部，里面有成千上万的其他蛋白质，还有垃圾、细胞核、内质网等等各种东西阻隔在锁和钥匙之间，阻碍这两个形状相互找到对方。

you think about, like, the interior of a cell, it's like there's thousands of other proteins and there's and there's, you know, trash and there's the nucleus and there's, I don't know, endoplasmic reticulum. There's like all sorts of things inside the cell that are between the lock and the key, between the two shapes like finding each other.

没错。这正是我感到不安的地方——想想那个时间点，再想想你在千分之一秒内找到自己形状的概率。

Correct. This is what I was, like, uncomfortable with is think of that time and think of the probability of you finding your shape in one thousandth of a second.

靠。

Damn.

这速度相当快。就像是

It's pretty fast. It's like

清洁工拿着钥匙串往锁孔一扔，结果钥匙串里偏偏就有一把钥匙插进了锁孔，尽管中间隔着那么那么远的距离，它还是穿过去了。是啊。

the janitor took the ring of keys and just threw it at a lock, and somehow the right key on that ring gets into the lock and, like, it makes it across the space even though there's so so much the middle. Yeah.

正是如此。而这还仅仅是一次互动。如果你这样拆解来看，我在学校学到的知识就解释不通了。肯定遗漏了什么，细胞内部必然存在其他诱导信号传递的机制。

Exactly. And that's just like one interaction. And and so if you kind of break it down that way, that's what I learned in school, things weren't adding up. There's something missing. There had to be something else to induce signaling inside of a cell.

所以研究生时期的高级免疫学课后，我找到老师追问：这种钥匙锁模型怎么可能成立？考虑下时间和概率因素。当我提出这个问题时，他回答说：我不知道，但事实就是如此运作的。

So my advanced immunology teacher in in in grad school, I after class went up to him and I was like, well, how does that lock and key model make sense? Think of the time and the probability. And I asked him that question. And he said, I don't know. But this is how it works.

我当时就说：不，到底怎么运作的？你知道的，我就是那种烦人的研究生。但能不能多解释一点？比如时间因素如何纳入考量？

I'm like, no. But how? Like, you know, I'm that annoying grad student. But like, but like, can you tell me a little bit more? Like, where does the time fit in?

他说，事情就是这样。我不知道它是如何运作的。而正是这个‘我不知道’让我觉得或许我可以去弄清楚那些我不知道的事情。

And he said, this is just the way it is. I don't know how it works. And that I don't know was enough for me to figure out maybe I can go find out that I don't know.

纳罗莎不断思考这个问题时，她想到物理学中或许有答案，那个粒子总是飞速运动的世界。也许那里有什么能帮到我。

As Narosha kept puzzling this, she thought maybe there's something in physics, the world where particles are always zipping around really fast. Maybe there's something there that could help me out.

我想填补的空白是：化学反应、物理相互作用为何能如此迅速发生？为什么我们不能通过非物理相互作用实现同样效果？我这样想象——就像一扇门可以用刷卡进入，也可以用传统钥匙开启。两种方式都能开门。蛋白质作用需要较长时间完成行为，而无线刷卡就像把卡靠近接收器，信号一传门就开了。

The gap that I was trying to fill is that how can the chemistry, how can the physical interactions occur so quickly? Why can't we have the same thing but through nonphysical interactions? So the way that I kind of like picture it is maybe if you had a door with a tap card access versus an actual old school lock and key Mhmm. You can open the door both ways. Either the proteins can do it, that will take a longer time to do the behavior, or like a wireless tap where you can just kind of put a card against a a key receiver and there's a, you know, a signal or a door opens.

嗯。

Mhmm.

那么，细胞能用什么更快的通讯方式？已知最快的信号是什么？光。它是宇宙中存在的最快传输形式。

So okay. What what can be faster that cells can use to communicate? What is the fastest signal that we know? Light. It is the fastest modality that exists in our universe.

于是我开始——或者说我的做法是——通过研究看看是否有人提出过这些问题，以及他们如何验证这些假设。

And then you go out or what I did was went out is is to research to see if anyone else has asked those questions and what how and how they test them.

噢，明白了。

Oh. Okay.

通过我的研究，我找到了最初证明生物体会发光的论文。

And through my research, I found the original papers that showed that biology emits light.

生物体会发光。

Biology emits light.

没错。

Yeah.

神经科学偶然发现的这个生物学冷门领域，是由俄罗斯生物学家亚历山大·格维奇开创的。上世纪二十年代，他通过一系列洋葱根实验来研究其生长机制。说实话，原始论文是俄语的，实验设计复杂得近乎疯狂。

What Neuroscience stumbled into was a weird little corner of biology pioneered by this Russian biologist Alexander Gervich. In the nineteen twenties, he did a series experiments on onion roots to understand how they grow. And I'm gonna be real with you. The the the original paper's in Russian. It was kind of a crazily complicated experimental setup.

但简而言之，在这些实验过程中，他发现洋葱根部的细胞似乎在制造并释放自身的光。

But, basically, in the process of doing these experiments, he made a discovery that seemed to suggest that the onion cells inside the roots were making and releasing their own light.

这是人类首次意识到'生物体会发光'的实验。我们现在知道，你体内的每个细胞都会发光。每一个细胞。每一个。

It was the very first instance that someone thought, hey, biology emits light. That was the first experiment. What we now know is every cell in your body does give off light. Every cell. Every cell.

任何种类：心肌细胞、肝细胞、脑细胞、颊细胞。

Any kind. Heart cell. Liver cell. Brain cell. Cheek cell.

皮肤细胞。肝脏。

Skin cell. Liver.

脸颊细胞。一切。

Cheek cell. Everything.

而这如何归结于细胞实际发光的部分，这与新陈代谢有关。因此，任何能进行新陈代谢的东西都会发光。植物会发光。虾会发光。实际上，所有有生命的东西都会发光。

And the how kinda comes down to the the part of the cell that's actually giving off light, which is involved with metabolism. So if anything can metabolize, plants give off light. Shrimp give off light. Literally everything that is alive emits light.

所以我现在在发光。我们确实在发光。你现在在发光。绝对是的。为什么我看不到？

So I'm glowing right now. We sure are. You're glowing right now. Absolutely. Why can't I see it?

因为这是个好问题。终于，我们来到了第一个问题。

Because that that's a good question. So Finally, we get to one.

不。这太棒了。我们物理上无法看到它。这是因为光的强度太弱了。而且，你知道，它必须穿过所有这些组织才能到达外部，这样我们才能看到它。

No. That's fantastic. We physically can't see it. It's because the intensity of light is so weak. And, you know, it has to come and go through all this tissue to come outside so that we could see it.

所以如果你在培养皿中取一个细胞，任何细胞，它都会发光。我们现在非常确信，这是波长特定的。这意味着什么？不同的新陈代谢速率会诱导不同波长的光，也就是不同的颜色。

And so if you take a cell in a dish, any cell in a dish, it will give off light. And we now know very confidently that it's wavelength specific. What does that mean? Different rates of metabolism will induce different wavelengths of light, so in different colors.

所以不仅是我在发光，或者说细胞在发光，它们可能还会发出不同颜色的光。没错。等一下，那当我的朋友试图拉低我的气场让它变红时，就是这个原理吗？

So not only am I emitting light or cells are emitting emitting light, they could be emitting light of different color. Correct. Wait a second. So when my friends try and, like, drag me down to get my aura red, is that this?

这种光的强度肯定不如你看到的一些气场象形图那么亮。好吧。我们要检测它，必须在一个极暗的房间里使用这些高灵敏度探测器，甚至才能检测到一个光子。明白了。

So the intensity of light is definitely not as bright as some of the the aura pictographs that you might see. Okay. For us to detect it, we have to have an ultra dark room and use these high sensitive detectors to even detect one photon. Okay.

所以如果我是一个细胞，我在发光，也许我们需要选一个特定的细胞，我不确定。这到底是怎么运作的？

So if I'm a cell and I'm giving off light, and maybe we have to pick a specific cell, I don't know. How does that actually work?

让我们深入探讨一下。我们知道光是从细胞中发出的。现在的问题是，它到底是从哪里来的？这是我经常被问到的问题。机制是什么？

So let's dig into that a little bit. We know that light gets emitted from cells. The question now is, where exactly is it coming from? That's the question that I get all the time. What's the mechanism?

我的假设是，大部分的光可能来自线粒体。

My hypothesis is that most of it kinda comes down to the mitochondria.

你可能知道这个。细胞内部的一个结构就是线粒体。它看起来像一个微型的肾豆，里面有微小的褶皱，常被称为细胞的动力工厂。嘿，互联网。它创造了让我们运转的所有能量。

So you probably know this. One of the structures inside the cell is the mitochondria. It looks like a microscopic kidney bean with tiny little folds inside of it, and it is often called the powerhouse of the cell. Hey, Internet. It creates all of the energy that makes us run.

所以神经元的放电、肌肉的收缩、身体的运作，都来自线粒体。它的工作原理是分子沿着内部的褶皱互相传递电子，这个传递过程会释放能量。

So that's neurons firing, muscles contracting, bodies working. It all comes from the mitochondria. And the way that works is molecules will pass electrons back and forth to each other all along the inner folds, and that process of passing releases energy.

因此在这个过程中，电子从高能态一路降至低能态。

So in that process, the electron goes from a high energy all the way down to a low energy state.

就像高能电子，好比一个吃了很多糖的孩子，而低能电子就像液体。他们戒掉了糖分。

Is like a high energy electron, like a kid with a lot of sugar and then like a low energy electron is liquid. They they cut out off the sugar.

这是一种理解方式。

That's one way to look at it.

对，没错。所以在跃迁过程中，它会释放能量，也就是光。爸爸，这部分就像精华所在。你是说，我们因为电子在做有趣的事情而散发出生命力。

Yes. Yeah. So during that hop, it releases energy, which is light. Dad, this part is like the juicy part. So you're saying that, I don't know, we're giving off life because we're doing fun things with our electrons.

因为我们活着。是的，关于细胞内光的来源有多种不同理论。可能是这些电子，也可能是带电粒子的积累与释放。

Because we're alive. We're because yeah. There are a number of different ideas about where light could be coming from inside the cell. It could be these electrons. It could be a buildup and release of charged particles.

可能与脂肪酸有关，也可能是多种因素的结合。对Neurosha来说，她发现当打断电子链时，光会变化。如果电子无法完成传递，就不该有光产生，对吧？

It could be something having to do with fatty acids. It could be a combination of things. For Neurosha, she's finding that when she interrupts that electron chain, the light changes. If the electron doesn't make it, there should be no light. Right?

这是逻辑推论，也正是我们开始发现的规律。

That's the the logic, and that's what we're starting to find.

你是否了解一个细胞在任意时刻会发射多少光子？是的。当我们测量时发现，如果

Do you have a sense of how many photons a cell is emitting at any moment? Yes. So when we've measured it. So if

你取一盘大鼠的脑细胞，如果它们处于静息状态，基本不活动，大约每秒会释放100个光子。当你添加一盘脑细胞时，比如，那大概有多少脑细胞？约一百万个。所以

you take a dish of brain cells from a rat, it if it's just at rest, just doing nothing really, you probably get around a 100 photons a second. When you add How a dish of brain cells, like, how many brain cells is that? About a million. So a

一百万，假设是一百万个脑细胞。对。每秒发射100个光子，

mill so say a million brain cells Yep. Emitting a 100 photons a second as

作为一个整体。

a group.

作为一个整体。好的。当你激活它们时，我们接收到的信号范围在每秒1000到2000个光子之间。

As a group. Okay. Then when you activate them, we get signals anywhere from a thousand to 2,000 photons a second.

好的。等等。我脑海中突然浮现出一个画面，线粒体就像一直在放烟花一样。我在想，这些小小的细胞正在不断迸发光芒。

Okay. Okay. Wait. I got really lost in an image of, like, the mitochondria just releasing like fireworks all the time. Like, I was like, oh, these little cells are popping off.

就像7月4日棒球比赛后的烟花场景。对，这比喻可能很准确。如果我在一个极其黑暗的空间里，可能看到的就是这种光吗？正是如此。

It's like after a baseball game on the July 4. Yeah. That's probably accurate. And is it that light that I might potentially be seeing if I had an amazingly dark space? That's exactly it.

是的。好的。

Yep. Okay.

为什么我没有学过这个？

Why did I not learn about this?

这是个很好的问题。这正是我想改变的。我认为很多人对试图理解这件事存在很大抵触。大约十年前，当我刚开始研究这个时，我在一次会议上以研究生身份展示这些内容，首次遭遇了强烈反对。哦。

That's an excellent question. That's something that I would like to change. I think there's a lot of resistance to trying to understand this. About, like, ten years ago when I first started this stuff, I had my first backlash when I presented this as a graduate student at a conference. Oh.

那太糟糕了。

It was awful.

等等。发生了什么？

Wait. What happened?

我当时率先展示了我们的发现，因为我对此非常兴奋，想把它纳入我的研究生论文。天哪，结果招来了严厉批评。哦，这是噪音。这不是科学。你会毁了自己的职业生涯。

I presented our first because I was really excited about this, so I wanted to incorporate this into my graduate thesis. And oh, boy, did I get it. Oh, this is noise. This is not science. You're gonna jeopardize your career.

停止这些。回去研究细胞生物学吧。

Stop this. Go back into cell biology.

我在想，是不是有些人会觉得这简直是胡扯。因为我们之前已经讨论过气场了。我能想象很多人会说，不，这不靠谱。

I wonder if some of it is like people have been like, man, it's bullshit. Because it's like we've already talked about auras. I could imagine like a lot of folks being like, no. This isn't legit.

我觉得这种情况很多。但在过去十年里，不止是我，全球还有几位其他研究者。所以现在大家开始接受，好吧，我们相信了。生物体会发出光。

I think there's a lot of that. But within the last decade, it's not just me. There's several other researchers across the globe. So now there's an acceptance of, okay, we'll believe it. There's light coming off of biology.

现在的阻力在于，好吧，我们承认有光发出，但那是噪音。那不是生物学上有意义的可利用光。所以我目前研究的是，线粒体产生的光，是否携带了某种细胞运作所需的信息？

Now the resistance is, okay, we we we accept that there's light coming off, but it's noise. It's not meaningful light that's used in biology. So what I'm looking into now is, okay, light's being generated from the mitochondria. Does that light carry some form of information that the cell can use to do what it needs to do?

这种光是有目的性然后被身体利用的吗？对。

Is it purposeful and then being utilized Yeah. By the body? Yeah.

所以我就在想，我们其实浸泡在这个大火球——太阳发出的光里。这些光对我们的生理有影响吗？比如...

So I was thinking, okay, we're sitting in a bath of of light that's coming from this big ball of fire, which we call the sun. Does this light have any impact on our physiology? Like, you

我明白了，在理解内在光之前，先搞清楚外在光的作用？你是说我们在如何与外在光互动？这些原理是否适用于我们体内产生的光？

know, okay, before I before I understand internal light, what does external light do? I see. You were just like, how are we interacting with external light? Does any of that apply To the internal? To the internal light we're making.

光的本质是相同的。光子就是光子。比如眼睛里的视蛋白，就能转换不同波长的光来调节昼夜节律。

The light's the same. The photon is the same. For example, there are these proteins called opsins in your eyes that help convert different wavelengths of life that help regulate circadian rhythms.

我想这对我来说有道理，因为眼球是一个感光器官。感光器官，所以它能感知光线。但这就是我与光互动的终点，好像就到此为止了。而听你的意思，似乎还有更多光互动在发生。是的。

I guess that makes sense to me because the eyeball is a light Sensing organ. Light sensing organ, and so it senses light. But that's where my light interaction, like, shuts down. And you're sounds like you're saying there's more light interactions happening. Yeah.

我是说，如果你查阅任何文献，首先提到的就是维生素D合成。就是，阳光照射到你的皮肤上，皮肤会合成维生素D，这对新陈代谢有很多作用。

I mean, if you go to any literature, the first thing that will come up is vitamin d synthesis. Is that, okay, the sun hits your skin and your skin processes vitamin d and, you know, that does a lot of things for metabolism.

所以你是说我的皮肤在和阳光协作？完全正确。完全正确。就像阳光照射我。对吧？

So you're saying like my skin is working with the sun? Absolutely. Absolutely. So like sun hits me. Correct?

然后我的身体会做什么？维生素D前体会吸收阳光中的特定波长。它们在吸收波长。是有波长存在的。没错。

And then what does my body do? The vitamin d precursors absorb a certain wavelength from the sun. They're absorbing wavelengths. There's wavelength. Yeah.

光线中携带着信息。然后它们会转换形态。那种形态才是我们能吸收的。天啊。

There's information in that light. And they convert shape. That shape is what we can absorb. Oh my god.

我从未想过我们如此像植物。是啊是啊。我们本质上就像是能量转换器，将阳光转化为生命所需的能量。等等。

I never thought of us as so plant like. Yeah. Yeah. We are we are essentially like energetic converters converting sunlight into energy for our life. Wait.

这是我与太阳波长之间唯一的直接互动吗？就是我在主动进行转换的那种？

Is that the only direct interaction I have with the wavelengths from the sun that I'm, like, actively converting?

不，我们大脑中有光感受器。看起来里面很暗。没错。我们的色素细胞，比如黑色素细胞、血红蛋白——它们在红细胞中携带氧气——会吸收光线。

No. We have light receptors in our brain. Seems so dark in there. Exactly. Our pigment cells, like, you know, the melanocytes, hemoglobin that carries the oxygen within your red blood cell absorbs light.

好的。还有更多。随着人们开始研究光与物质的相互作用，我们发现越来越多的分子具有固有的吸光能力。

Okay. There are a lot more. And we're starting to see more and more as as people start to look at interactions with light, we can see that molecules have inherent abilities to absorb light.

作为生物，我们与太阳共同进化了如此之久，以至于细胞中有许多许多元素能够吸收光线。那么现在的问题是，如果是这样，我们细胞内产生的光是否也能被吸收？能否有目的地利用它来触发我们体内的某些过程？

We as creatures have evolved with the sun for so long that there are many, many elements of our cells that are able to absorb light. And so now the question is, if that's the case, could the light coming from inside of our cells also be absorbed? Could it be used purposefully to trigger some processes in us?

是的。这是个好问题。我们...我们不知道。我的假设是细胞发光是有目的的，但我们还没有确凿证据来肯定或否定这一点。

Yeah. That's a good question. We I we don't know. We we my hypothesis is that the the cell generating light is purposeful, but we don't have the evidence to strongly say yes or no.

有意思。看来我们确实处于很多理论构想阶段。比如，一旦我们突破这个发现——生物材料细胞（包括你我）会发光这一事实对许多人来说将是颠覆性的——之后就会涌现大量关于如何、为何、何时以及这意味着什么的问题。

Interesting. Like, so we really are in a lot of like theoretical ideas. Like, once we get beyond the revelation, which will be a revelation to a lot of people that biological material cells, me, you are emitting light. Then a lot of the questions that come after that of like how, why, when What does it mean? What does it mean?

这...

That's

待定。这些都是下一步要研究的。所以我认为，确实还有很多问题需要探索。

TBD. Those are all next steps. So I think, yeah, there's there's some, like, a lot more questions to be asked.

接下来，神经科学试图揭示我们体内那些微光可能的作用。这些小小光子究竟在忙些什么？细胞层面的烟火秀将在广告后继续。

Coming up, Neuroscience tries to find out what the light inside our bodies might be doing. Like, what are those little photons up to? The cellular fireworks continue after the break.

大家好，我是露露，这是BetterHelp的广告。BetterHelp的治疗师已帮助全球超过500万人走过心理健康之旅。这是数百万个故事、数百万段旅程，而每位求助者背后都有一位始终在场、用心倾听并助人前行的治疗师。治疗中的关键时刻——无论是恰到好处的提问、安全的哭泣空间还是庆祝微小胜利——都能改变人生。10月10日是世界精神卫生日。

Hey, I'm Lulu, and this is an ad by BetterHelp. BetterHelp therapists have helped over 5,000,000 people worldwide on their mental health journeys. That's millions of stories, millions of journeys, and behind everyone is a therapist who showed up, listened, and helped someone take a step forward. Moments in therapy, like the right question, a safe space to cry, or celebrate a small win, can change lives. October 10 is World Mental Health Day.

哇哦！BetterHelp正以此致敬那些促成治愈的连接关系和治疗师们。我恰好嫁给了一位治疗师。所以为了庆祝世界精神卫生日，今晚回家我要给她一个吻，感谢她帮助过的所有人。合适的治疗师能带来翻天覆地的变化。

Woo hoo. And BetterHelp is honoring those connections and therapists who make them possible. I happen to be married to a therapist. So in honor of World Mental Health Day, I am gonna go home tonight and give her a kiss and thank her for all the people she has helped. The right therapist can make all the difference.

BetterHelp拥有超过3万名治疗师，是全球最大的在线治疗平台。它会为您完成初步匹配工作，让您能专注于与最适合的治疗师合作达成目标。若对匹配结果不满意，随时可更换治疗师。值此世界精神卫生日，BetterHelp向帮助数百万人迈步向前的治疗师致敬。若您准备好寻找专属治疗师，BetterHelp随时相助。

And with over 30,000 therapists, BetterHelp is the world's largest online therapy platform. And BetterHelp does the initial matchmaking work for you so you can focus on working with the perfect therapist to meet your specific therapy goals. And if for some reason you aren't happy with your match, switch to a different therapist at any time whenever you want. This World Mental Health Day, BetterHelp is celebrating the therapists who've helped millions of people take a step forward. If you're ready to find the right therapist for you, BetterHelp can help.

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Radiolab listeners will get 10% off their first month at betterhelp.com/radiolab. That's better,help,.com/radiolab.

欢迎收听《解码女性健康》。我是伊丽莎白·波因特医生，纽约市Atria健康研究院女性健康与妇科主任。我将对话顶尖研究者与临床医师，为您直接传递中年女性健康的重要资讯。

Welcome to Decoding Women's Health. I'm doctor Elizabeth Poynter, Chair of Women's Health and Gynecology at the Atria Health Institute in New York City. I'll be talking to top researchers and clinicians and bringing vital information about midlife women's health directly to you.

百分之百的女性都会经历更年期。即便这是自然过程，我们为何要默默忍受？

One hundred percent of women go through menopause. Even if it's natural, why should we suffer through it?

欢迎收听由伊丽莎白·波因特医生主持的《解码女性健康》播客，各大平台均可订阅。

Listen to Decoding Women's Health with Doctor. Elizabeth Poynter wherever you get your podcasts.

大家好，我是莫莉·韦伯斯特。我们回来了。我们将踏入一个充满疑问的世界。而Neurosha想解决的第一个问题是：看似细胞烟花秀的现象，实际上可能更像激光或类似的东西。

Hey. I'm Molly Webster. We are back. We're stepping into a world of questions. And one of the first ones Neurosha wants to tackle is how what seems like a cellular fireworks show might actually be more like a laser or something.

我想说，接下来的问题是，如果这些线粒体发出的光...嗯...如果是有目的的，它是如何在细胞内从A点传递到B点的？比如说，如果...

I mean, and then the next question, if this light that's coming off of these mitochondria Uh-huh. If it's purposeful, how is it getting from point a to point b in the cell? Like, if there's a

这束光具有目的性，它是定向的。它是信息的哨兵。呃，其实我也不确定。这不就是个光子吗？

purpose to the light and it's it's a a Directed. And it's directed. It's a sentinel of information. Like, well, I don't know. Isn't it a photon?

光子不就是直接穿透物质的吗？就像...

Don't they just flow through things when it just like photons

会散射对吧？所以当光子被释放时，并不是朝着特定方向，而是会四处散射。

scatter. Right? Okay. So it like, photons, when it gets released, it's not like I'm going this direction. It'll be scattered.

这不是朝北发射，而是光子的爆发式扩散。

It's I'm not going north. I'm just an explosion of photons.

关于光子。如果我们要说这是有目的的，它需要被引导至某个目的地。

Of photons. And if if we are gonna say that it's purposeful, it needs to be guided into a a destination.

那么你的问题是，它如何从A点到达B点而不像光子那样偏离轨道？

So then your question is, how does it get from a to b without going off course in a photon like manner?

没错。而且，什么样的生物学机制能支持这一点？有证据表明细胞骨架可能是引导光子的一种方式。什么是细胞骨架？

Correct. And, like, what is the biology that would support that? And there is some evidence suggesting that maybe the cytoskeleton is a means to guide photons. What's that? Cytoskeleton?

是的。它是细胞的骨架，即细胞的支架。具体由多种蛋白质构成，其中我们特别关注的是微管蛋白，它们形成长棒状结构，正是这些结构帮助塑造了细胞的形态。

Yeah. It's the skeleton, the scaffolding of the cell. Okay. It's specifically made up of various proteins, and the one of our interest within this scaffold is called microtubules that form in a long rod like structure. They're the ones that help create that shape of the cell.

所以每个细胞内部都充满了独立的小管状结构——那些帮助维持形状的小棒。而你的问题是这些结构是否吸收了部分光线？没错。因为如果你观察

So so every cell is filled with individual little tubules Little that rods. Are help giving it its shape, little rods. And your your question was do those things suck up some of the light? Correct. Because if you look

细胞的图像，你会发现线粒体与细胞骨架的棒状结构非常非常接近。它们会沿着细胞骨架移动，就像在细胞内的微型轨道上运输。

at images of a cell, you can actually see mitochondria really, really close to the cytoskeletal rods. And they they get moved along the cytoskeleton, like little train tracks to physically move within cells.

哦，线粒体本身会附着在这些微管上移动。嗯。

Oh, mitochondria themselves will attach on to these microtubules and move around. Mhmm.

是的。我是说，总之这就是物质在细胞内移动的方式。不是像随机漂浮的斑点那样。我不知道。我是说，

Yes. I mean, all and that's how things move within the cell. It's not just like random blobs floating around. I don't know. I mean,

听起来像是所有东西都在漂浮。细胞内有一套微型电车系统。对，这太可爱了。而且东西会上下车。

it sounded like everything was floating. There's a little tram system that's inside the cell. Yeah. That's so cute. And, like, things hop on and off.

好的。

Okay.

没错。它们被称为驱动蛋白和动力蛋白，但我坚持用电车来比喻。当然。所以你看，如果线粒体靠近这些轨道或者说微管，发出的光就可能被微管吸收并沿着轨道传播。就像光纤电缆那样。

Exactly. They're they're called Kinesins and dinesins, but I'm gonna stick with tram. Sure. But so, you know, if the mitochondria are in close proximity to these railway tracks or these these microtubules, the light that's being emitted could be absorbed by that microtubule and be propagated down that that tract. Like in fiber optic cable.

那么我们现在正在测试一系列实验，看看微管是否就是这种生物光纤电缆。好的。但你们目前有任何证据证明这些光不是像烟花一样在细胞夜空四散，而是确实从A点传输到B点吗？

And so what we're testing right now is a series of experiments to see if the microtubule is that biological fiber optic cable. Okay. But do you have any proof thus far that that light is not just being cast off like fireworks into the cellular night, that it is actually being moved from an a to a b?

我们目前正在研究这个。但已有有力证据表明，神经细胞——也就是你的脑细胞——产生的光并非随机，而是与这些神经元的有目的活动相关联

We are working on that currently right now. But we do have strong evidence to show that the light that's being generated from neural cells, your brain cells, they are not random. That they are tied to purposeful activity of those

所以当大脑有活动时，大脑里就有光？没错。那么你对光在大脑内可能携带什么信息有什么假设吗？

neurons. So when there's activity in the brain, there's light in the brain? That's correct. I mean, do you have any hypotheses of like what information light might be carrying inside the brain?

嗯，这其实是一类相同的问题——我们能从电力中获取何种信息？

Well, it's the same I I it's the same kind of question we can what kind of information does electricity carry?

我不知道，纳罗山。我只是提出问题。

I don't know, Naroshan. I just asked the questions.

我不是这个意思。不，不是。但这里的信息指的是，或许光的波长、这些光波的振荡本身携带生物信息就具有意义。因为如果你观察大脑，在两个脑细胞之间传递信息的结构——我们称之为白质或轴突——我们开始发现白质能够传输光子。

I'm not. No. No. But the information in this case is that the fact that, you know, maybe the the wavelength, the the the oscillations of these light, the fact that they they could carry biological information itself would be meaningful because if you look into your brain, between your two brain cells or, you know, things that carry information in from one part of your brain to the other, we call that the white matter or the axons. The white matter, we're starting to see, can carry photons.

所以也许每一束神经都像光纤电缆那样运作。就像电信中使用的光纤，它们传输光脉冲来携带信息。为什么我们的大脑不能这样做呢？

So maybe each of those bundles of nerves act like a fiber optic cable. And the same fiber optic cable that we see in telecommunication, they carry pulses of light that, you know, that we use to carry information. Why can't our brain do that? And

这可能类似于记忆。是像信号一样吗？一种思维。

this could be like memories. Is it like signals? A thought.

为什么思维不能以光的形式传递？更进一步大胆设想，这些光子是否参与帮助我们理解意识？哦。

Why can't a thought be transported in the form of light? And it kind of, you know, for really thinking far ahead, are these photons involved in trying to help us understand consciousness? Oh.

说实话，关于人体内部这个光的世界，我们还有太多未知。一些研究者形容这个领域充满风险，可能最终毫无收获。但如果他们是对的，这可能会改变一切，至少改变许多事情。对于神经科学而言，即使她不知道体内这些光的目的——哪怕根本没有目的——它对我们体外世界或许具有某种意义。

There's honestly so much about this world of light inside the body that we don't know yet. Some of the researchers describe this field as risky, like it could all add up to nothing. But if they're right, it could change everything or at least a lot of things. For Neuroscience, even if she doesn't know what the purpose of the light is inside the body, like even if there isn't one, it might have a purpose for us outside the body.

我和其他一些人正在研究的是光子确实存在。嗯哼。我们能否利用它来区分不同事物？如果它们至少与新陈代谢相关，它们是否是光子生物标志物？就像我说的，

What myself and a few other people are doing is the photons are there. Mhmm. Can we use it to discriminate between things? If they're, at the very least, tied to metabolism, are they photonic biomarkers? Like, I say,

我知道那是心脏。我知道那是肿瘤。没错。我知道那是肾脏。就是这样。

I know that's a heart. I know that's a tumor. Exactly. I know that's a kidney. That's it.

至少，我们能做到这一点吗？因此，我正尝试将其应用于癌症检测。我们知道癌细胞具有功能失调或异常的线粒体。嗯哼。那么，如果能在最初阶段，当它们刚与健康细胞产生差异时，就能捕捉到这种早期变化。

At the very least, can we do that? And so what I'm trying to do is use that for cancer. So for for cancer use, we know that cancer have dysfunctional mitochondria or non normal. Mhmm. So from there, if can you imagine if when at the very beginning inception, we can pick up that early change as soon as they happen, as soon as they're different from their healthy counterparts.

如果我们能用光子捕捉到这一点，就意味着我们能在癌症刚萌芽时就发现它。不需要等待分子和突变的积累，不必经历漫长的等待期。

If we can pick up that using photons, that means we can pick up cancer as early as as the inception point. We don't need to have an accumulation of molecules and mutations. We don't have to wait that long.

是啊。你需要像...

Yeah. You need like a

完整的肿瘤。对。你需要一个可观的肿块。基本上是这样。

whole tumor. Yeah. You need a sizable mass Yeah. Basically.

才能说，哦，嘿。你体内在长癌。那么问题来了，癌细胞与其他细胞在光子释放方面是否存在显著差异？

To to say, oh, hey. Your body's growing cancer. Right. I guess the question then is, is there a significant difference between the photon release in cancer cells versus other cells?

是的。我们已经展示了这一点，并且发表了相关论文。

Yes. And we've shown that and we've published that.

它们有两种不同的光信号特征。所以通过癌细胞发出的光，你们实际上能更早诊断出癌症？是的。

They have two different light signatures. So the with the light coming off cancer, you guys are actually diagnosing cancer earlier? Yes.

是的。我可以自信地说，我们现在已经发表了相关论文。在注射后最早的时刻，我们就能判断动物体内是否存在癌症。在这些实验中，我们会用一只老鼠，在其皮下注射黑色素瘤。

Yes. I with confidence, I can say this. We've published papers on this now. So we can tell whether there is cancer within an animal as early as that we've injected it. So in these experiments, we'll take a a rat, and we have injected underneath its skin melanoma.

在注射后的第一天，我们以双盲方式进行检测——由研究生用检测器观察被注射与未被注射的动物。第一天就能得出结论。

And on day one, after injection, we and we did this in a double blind way where a grad student has come with detectors to look at animals that were injected versus not injected. You can tell within day one.

那里有个...

That there's a there's

有个东西...那里有癌细胞。

a something there's cancer there.

哇。所以即使这种光在生物学上没有实际用途，你们认为它仍可能具有诊断价值。嗯。就像我们刚才讨论的——我要让你再重复一遍——你们已经研究了释放光子的脑细胞、肿瘤细胞和正常体细胞。

Wow. So even if it's like even if the light was not biologically purposeful, you're thinking maybe it could still be diagnostically useful. Mhmm. So it's like, basically, we've walked through I'm just gonna make you say it again. But, know, you've like walked through brain cells that let out photons, tumor cells that let out photons, normal body cells that let out photons.

你是说每个人，你观察的每个细胞都在释放光子。绝对没错。而且

You're saying everybody, every cell that you've looked at is letting off photons. Absolutely. And there

有篇已发表的论文表明，仅通过观察光子特征就能判断动物是活着还是死亡状态。

was a paper that was published that showed that you can tell when an animal is alive and dead just by looking at their photon signatures.

天啊。这正是我想问你的问题。比如，光何时开始出现？它真的会彻底消失吗？

Oh, my god. This is the question I wanna ask you. Yeah. Like, when does the light start? And then does it truly go away?

是的。在那篇论文中，我认为他们最初的研究只是观察动物生死状态下不同探测器的反应。光子特征会随着动物死亡而消散。但该研究未涉及你提到的关键点——这个特征具体在什么时间节点终止？

Yeah. So in that paper, they I think they're the the initial study was to just look at these different kinds of detectors when an animal is alive and and dead. And the photon signatures obviously dissipate when the animal dies. What that study didn't look at, which you alluded to, is when. When in that time scale does this signature end?

这将会非常有趣。当你死亡时，光芒何时熄灭？例如在临终关怀中，人们报告过这种死亡闪光现象。那究竟是什么？我最初是在参加意识研讨会时听说的，当时有位心胸外科医生。

And that would be really cool. When does the glow stop when you're when you're when you're dead? For example, in like hospice care, people report this death flash. What's what's that? I I originally heard about this when I went to a consciousness conference, and there was this cardiothoracic surgeon.

他说自己或手术室同事曾目睹过这种突然的闪光。我当时想：手术室里到处都是无影灯啊。这就是我最初听闻此事的场景，后来稍作调查发现，许多临终护理护士都提到过这种轶事。

He would say that, you know, he's seen it or his his staff in the OR has seen this like very sudden flash of light. And I'm like, you have like OR lights everywhere. Like, how that's where I initially heard it, and I like looked into it a little bit, and there's hospice nurses that have anecdotally mentioned this.

就像外科医生说的，仅就心脏停跳又重启的手术而言，会出现类似电光爆发的现象？没错。

Like a like a surgeon's just saying, just for the purpose of surgery where we stop a heart and start a heart, there's like an electric explosion of light? Right.

对。对。对。不。对。

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No. Yeah.

这些都是报告。有任何实验证据吗？我不确定。现场有麻醉师。

These are reports. Are there any experimental evidence? I'm not sure. There are anesthesiologists.

为什么会出现你能突然看见的强光爆发？

Why would there be a big explosion of light you could suddenly see?

我没有这方面的科学证据，但卡维雅，对。你显然

I don't have the scientific evidence for this, but Kaviyah, Yeah. You clearly

是啊。但我的意思是，我完全不知道该如何解决这个问题。

yeah. But I'm just saying like, what my I don't know how to solve that at all.

嗯，当生物死亡时，这些电子会突然释放。它们没有被传递到特定蛋白质中，对吧？这些电子无处可去。所以当高能质子消散时，就会释放出光。

Well, when when things die, there's a sudden release of these electrons. They're not being propagated into certain proteins. Right? These electrons have nowhere to go. And so when you have high energy protons dissipating, releases light.

所以这是我的假设。哇。当系统...对。这...这又回到了物理学。当生物学层面的组织性消失时，那些能量必须有个去处。

So that's my hypothesis. Wow. When the system yeah. It it and that's goes back to like physics. When there's no organization from biology, that energy has to go somewhere.

能量必须有个去处。所以它就这样释放了。这就是我一直提到的烟花效应。

The energy has to go somewhere. So it just is released. It is the fireworks that I've been talking about.

我认为是的。生物学上这些生物分子、细胞膜以及细胞内所有物质，都在帮助将能量组织成有意义的过程。这就是为什么我们谈话一开始我就说，当我们重新理解细胞作为能量体的概念时，物理维度就显得合理多了。

I think so. I think biology, these biomolecules, the membrane, all of these stuff inside of cells help organize that energy into meaningful process. So that's why I was saying way back when our beginning of our conversation is when we reframe our understanding of cells being these energetic bodies, I think the physical dimension makes a lot more sense.

我们是否知道，比如说，光最初是在什么时候亮起的？嗯，有个...

Do we have any idea of when, like, the light first turns on? Well, there's a there's a

我可以发给你一个超酷的视频，有人记录了生命闪现的瞬间。精子进入卵子的瞬间会有巨大的钙离子涌入。你看过那个视频吗？

really cool video that I can send to you where someone showed us the life flash. As soon as a sperm enters the egg, there's a huge calcium influx. Have you seen that video?

没看过。等等。我能看看这个视频吗？好啊。

No. Yeah. Wait. Can I see this video? Yeah.

对。你觉得这视频很容易找到吗？

Yeah. You think it's just around?

你应该能搜到。输入关键词，比如'钙离子生命闪现'之类的。

You should be able to Google it. Type in, I don't know, calcium life flash.

我越来越兴奋了。看人类卵子受精时烟花绽放的景象。好了，我要点击播放了。这是科学新闻，所以我信以为真。

I'm getting so excited. Watch fireworks explode when a human egg is fertilized. Alright. I'm hitting play. It's stat news, so I believe it.

什么？

What?

哇哦。是啊。

Woah. Yeah.

就像是一个...就像有个圆形的卵子，精子在边缘。然后你就能看到表面迸发出这种爆炸般的景象。

It is like an ex it's like a there's like a round egg, and then the sperm is at the edge. And then you just see kind of this explosion come off the surface.

一道闪光。没错。哇。

A flash. Yeah. Wow.

我是说，这真的很不可思议，因为就在我们聊完这个话题后，我就要去南卡罗来纳州，我父亲正在那里接受临终关怀，生命即将走到尽头。你会产生所有这些疑问，比如正在发生什么，事情如何展开——就像某种概念...我确信我不会看到类似闪光出现（虽然我会睁大眼睛留意），但这种向世界发出信号的概念...即便我们无法真正看见，光对我们而言是如此意义深远，它可能成为我们存在的印记，就像最后的致意。

I mean, it is really crazy because literally after we have this conversation, I'm going down to South Carolina where my dad is in hospice, like, near the end of his life. And you do have all these questions about just, like, what's happening, what's unfolding, like a notion that I mean, I'm sure I'm not gonna see like a flash of light happen. I mean, I'll keep my eyes peeled, but, know, just like the notion of like, a signal out into the world. Like, that's so visual, even if we can't really see it, but, like, light is so meaningful to us, you know, that it could that like it is a signature of of us and that that it's like a final salute or something.

你正在释放构成我们这副躯壳的能量，让它回归自然转化为其他形态。

You're letting the energy that was patterned into this architecture that we are out back to be transformed into something else.

是的。它真的非常...是的，真的很美。

Yeah. It's like it is really yeah. It's really pretty.

是啊。是啊。

Yeah. Yeah.

感谢来自加拿大威尔弗里德·劳里埃大学的Narosha Marugan。本期节目由Sara Khari与我共同制作，事实核查由Natalie Middleton完成。对于那些准备观看生命闪光视频的听众，请注意：视频中会出现一道强光。

Thank you to Narosha Marugan. You can find her at Wilfrid Laurier University in Canada. This episode was produced by Sara Khari with help from me. It was fact checked by Natalie Middleton. For those of you who are gonna go check out that life flash video, one thing to note, you're gonna see a big flash of light in the video.

那并非生物光子，而是研究人员为便于观察添加的荧光染料。但在染料之下，被清晰照亮的是一种极其微弱柔和的光。我想将这期节目献给我的父亲——虽然我没看见那道闪光，但我真切感受到了它的存在。

That is not the biophotons. That is a fluorescent dye that researchers added to the experiment so they could see it better. But beneath that dye, the thing that it's very much illuminating is a very quiet, gentle light. And I'd like to dedicate this episode to my dad. I did not see a flash of light, but I certainly felt one.

我会想念你的，老爸。谢谢你一直的倾听。这里是Radiolab，我们下周再见。

I'm gonna miss you, pops. Thanks for always listening. This is Radiolab. We will be back next week.

大家好，我是Bridget，此刻正在阿拉斯加东南部的查塔姆海峡捕鱼船上。以下是制作人员名单：Radiolab由Jad创立，Soren Wheeler担任编辑，Lulu Miller和Latif Nasser是联合主持人，Dylan Keefe为音效总监。

Hi. I'm Bridget, and I'm in Chatham Strait in Southeast Alaska on a fishing boat, and here are the staff credits. Radiolab was created by Jad and is edited by Soren Wheeler. Lulu Miller and Latif Nasser are our co hosts. Dylan Keefe is our Director of Sound Design.

团队成员包括Simon Adler、Jeremy Bloom、W Harry Fortuna、David Gable、Rebecca Lax、Maria Paz Butierrez、Hindu Nyanasambhadam、Matt Kielty、Annie McEwen、Alex Niesen、Zara Khari、Sarah Saibach、Anise Fietz、Arian Wack、Pat Walters、Molly Webster、Jessica Young。Rebecca Rand提供协助，事实核查团队有Diane Kelly、Emily Krieger、Anab Pujo Mathini和Natalie Middleton。我是来自犹他州的Celeste。Radiolab科学节目获得西蒙斯基金会和约翰·坦普顿基金会的领导力支持，基础支持来自阿尔弗雷德·P·斯隆基金会。

Our staff includes Simon Adler, Jeremy Bloom, W Harry Fortuna, David Gable, Rebecca Lax, Maria Paz Butierrez, Hindu Nyanasambhadam, Matt Kielty, Annie McEwen, Alex Niesen, Zara Khari, Sarah Saibach, Anise Fietz, Arian Wack, Pat Walters, Molly Webster, Jessica Young. With help from Rebecca Rand, our fact checkers are Diane Kelly, Emily Krieger, Anab Pujo Mathini, and Natalie Middleton. Hi, this is Celeste calling from Utah. Leadership support for Radiolab science programming is provided by the Simons Foundation and the John Templeton Foundation. Foundational support for Radiolab is provided by the Alfred P.

斯隆基金会。

Sloan Foundation.

我是艾拉·弗拉托，《科学星期五》的主持人。三十多年来，我们的团队一直在报道关于科学、技术和医学的高质量新闻，这些新闻你在其他地方是看不到的。现在政治新闻全天候无休，我们的观众转而向我们了解他们生活中真正重要的事情：癌症、气候变化、基因工程、儿童疾病。我们的赞助商深知科学和健康新闻的价值。如需更多赞助信息，请访问sponsorship.wnyc.org。

I'm Ira Flatow, host of Science Friday. For over thirty years, our team has been reporting high quality news about science, technology, and medicine, news you won't get anywhere else. And now that political news is twenty four seven, our audience is turning to us to know about the really important stuff in their lives, cancer, climate change, genetic engineering, childhood diseases. Our sponsors know the value of science and health news. For more sponsorship information, visit sponsorship.wnyc.org.