美元崩溃与实物资产的崛起

这里是富爸爸广播节目，关于金钱的好消息与坏消息。现在有请罗伯特·清崎。

This is the rich dad radio show, the good news and bad news about money. Here's Robert Kiyosaki.

大家好！我是罗伯特·清崎，此刻正在亚利桑那州凤凰城为您直播富爸爸广播节目——这里既是天堂也是地狱，而今天这里就是天堂。今天我们邀请到一位非常特别的嘉宾。

Hello. Hello. Hello. Robert Kiyosaki, the rich dad radio show broadcasting today from Phoenix, Arizona, where it's heaven or hell and today it's heaven. And, we have a very special guest today.

在我认识的人当中，他是最懂新世界金融的智者之一

One of the smartest guys I know when it comes to the world of the new world

关于

of

加密货币或者说电子货币领域。他就是马克·莫斯。在开始前，我要炫耀下我的摇滚夹克——我刚从南非德班回来时遇到这位设计师，他的服装设计总是最突破常规的。

crypto or, electronic money. It's Mark Moss. Before I go on, I'm gonna show off my rock and roll jacket here. I just returned from Durban, South Africa and I met this guy. He is, he designs the most outside the box clothing.

所以今天必须展示一下，说不定还会把眼睛涂成红白相间的颜色。就是想体验当摇滚明星的感觉。

So I have to, I have to show it off today and I might paint my eyes red and white or something. Just felt like a rock star.

这件夹克太棒了，我超喜欢。

I love the jacket. I love it.

太棒了。这家伙真是特立独行，就像我选女儿那样选了这位老先生。所以我觉得我得加把劲。总之，马克，欢迎来到节目。正如我所说，在电子货币加密新世界这个领域里，你是我认识的最聪明的人。

Love it. This guy was so out there and you know, like I chose like a daughter, the old man. So I think I better step it up. So anyway, Mark, welcome to the show. And like I said, you were the smartest guys I know when it comes to the setting new world of electronic money crypto.

我的老师是R·巴克敏斯特·富勒博士，他写过《关键路径》这本书，但这里这本叫《巨人的贪婪》。我不推荐阅读，因为他的书很难懂——GRUNCH代表全球现金大劫案。这就是银行系统通过货币掠夺我们财富的方式。所以在《富爸爸穷爸爸》里我说：富人不为钱工作。

And you know, my teacher was a man named Doctor. R Buckminster Fuller, he wrote a book called The Critical Path, but this is his book here called The Grunch of Giants. I don't recommend reading it because it's one of his, he has a tough read, but GRUNTS stands for gross universal cash heist. It is how our banking system rips off our wealth via our money. So that's why in Rich Dad, put it as the rich don't work for money.

你的房子不是资产，储蓄者就是输家。富勒还预言会出现新型货币。他是未来学家。巴克敏斯特·富勒谈论过全球现金劫案，他观察孩子们玩电子游戏时说：那就是货币的未来。

Your house is not an asset and savers are losers. And Fuller also predicted that there would be a new form of money coming on. He was a futurist. And so Buckminster Fuller talked about gross universal cash. Talked about was watching kids playing video games and he says, that's the future of money.

众所周知，比特币如今席卷全球，人人都投身加密领域。特朗普成为首位涉足加密的总统，还发行了自己的代币。这真是个勇敢新世界，我们从未见过的世界。坦白说，我错过了最初的机会。

And then as we know, Bitcoin's now taken the world by storm and everybody's into crypto. Whoever first crypto president Donald Trump, and sets out his own coins and all this. That's a brave new world. I mean, it was a world that we've never seen before. And for full disclosure, I missed the move.

我是在6000美元单价时才入场比特币的，但我在6000时确实重仓了。所以收益还不错。我还持有以太币，但不追其他币种。我对以太坊和比特币略懂一二。今天我们要和马克·莫斯聊聊，因为我和婴儿潮一代很多人将面临严峻危机——如果股市崩盘来临的话。

I only got in at $6,000 a coin or Bitcoin, but I did back up the truck at 6,000. So I'm doing fairly well. And also I have Ether, but I don't chase anything else. I kind of understand ether Ethereum and I kind of kind of understand Bitcoin. And today we're going to talk about to Mark Moss because my generation and boomer generation, many of us are in severe trouble because if I think what's going to happen is coming, it's a crack at the stock market.

婴儿潮一代会陷入绝境。所以我要和马克探讨他对加密世界的理解（他是我认识的最懂行的人），以及如何靠它退休。我多年前通过房地产实现退休，很庆幸这个决定。现在只想愉快地玩转金钱游戏。

The boomers would be out, you know, down the, down the river without a paddle. And so I'm gonna talk to Mars about how his, what he understands the world of crypto, the smartest guys I know in it. But also how does a person retire on it? I retired a long time ago off of real estate and I'm glad I did. So I'm just gonna have a good time playing with money.

我喜欢这个游戏，但对我而言只是游戏。马克，欢迎来到《富爸爸》节目，感谢你的付出——你的播客精彩绝伦。

I like the game, but it's just a game to me. So Mark, welcome to the Rich Dad Show and thank you for all you do because your podcasts are spectacular.

是的。感谢邀请我，罗伯特。各位听众，二十五年来你一直是我的导师。我想我读过你出版的每一本书，包括你和特朗普合作的那些。而最近几年我有幸与你私交渐深。

Yeah. Thanks for having me, Robert. You know, for everybody listening, I mean, you've been my mentor for twenty five years. I've read, I think every single book you put out and put in the ones you did with Trump. And now I've gotten to know you personally for the last couple of years.

所以能回到这里谈交易总是令人愉快。

So always a joy to be back here and talk a deal.

谢谢。我们正处在这个加密货币的全新世界里，上台前我们聊过——一个人怎么靠这个退休？但另一个问题是，你们有迈克尔·赛勒和汤姆·李这两位。迈克尔·赛勒正在通过上市公司运用华尔街的杠杆。

Thank you. So we're in this brave new world of crypto money and all this, and, we're talking before we went on. How does a person retire on that? But another question is this, you have this guy, Michael Sailor, and you have Tom Lee. And Michael Sailor is using the leverage of Wall Street with a public company.

对，他公司叫什么来着？

Yeah. Collect, what's the name of his company?

战略。以前叫微策略，现在就叫战略。

Strategy. It was micro strategy and now it's called strategy.

还有汤姆·李，我觉得他做的也差不多是同类事情。

Then you have Tom Lee who I think is doing kind of a similar thing.

没错。

Yep.

这个基础模块是以太坊。

This building block is Ethereum.

是的。

Yes.

但你要尽快解释清楚Sailor的动向、公司状况，而通过股票来撬动它——就是他的公司股份。

But you explain quickly what as best you can, what Sailor is up to, how he's as a company, but to leverage it through a stock is his, his shares of his company.

没错。他的公司其实有两部分：现在叫MicroStrategy（股票代码仍是MSBR）的普通股。他通过公开债务和股权市场、信贷市场来加杠杆扩大比特币持仓。简单说，如果我买1个比特币，你也买1个，但我用比特币价值抵押借50%的钱再买，这就是加杠杆。

Yeah. So there's really two parts to his company. So there's micro strategy, which is now strategy, but the stock is still MSBR, and there's the common stock of that. And what he's done is he's using public debt and equity markets, debt and credit markets, to leverage up his Bitcoin position. So very simply, if I buy one Bitcoin and you buy one Bitcoin, but then I borrow 50% of my value against my Bitcoin to buy more, I've levered it up.

如果比特币上涨，由于杠杆作用我的收益会超过你。房地产同理：如果我全款买房而你只付20%首付，房价上涨时使用杠杆的人收益更大。他通过这些公开工具进入债务和股权市场，以低利率融资购买高增长资产。这就是公司第一阶段——通过杠杆增持比特币，当你购买MSTR普通股时，每股对应的比特币数量会随时间增长。

If Bitcoin goes up, I will outperform you because of applied leverage. Same with real estate, right? If I pay cash for real estate versus putting 20% down, then when real estate goes up, the person that used leverage does that. So using these public vehicles, he's tapping into public debt and equity markets to raise money at low rates to buy an asset that's going up at higher rates. And so that was stage one of the company, which is, hey, I'm going to apply leverage, I'm going to buy bitcoin and when you buy my stock, which is the MSTR, common stock, the amount of bitcoin per share that you own, my goal is to get that to go up over time.

所以买ETF的话1个比特币永远是1个，实际上还会因手续费贬值。但持有MSTR的话，由于杠杆作用，每股对应的比特币数量会随时间增加。

So if you an ETF, one Bitcoin's one Bitcoin, your Bitcoin doesn't go up. As a matter of fact, your Bitcoin goes down because of fees. But if you want MSTR, exposure, the Bitcoin per share goes up over time because of the level.

用这个来提升股票价值。

Increase the stock value with that.

没错，那是第一阶段。而他现在的所作所为正在彻底改变我们对金融世界的认知。

That's correct. So that was phase one. And what he's done now is changing everything that we know about the world of finance.

等等，稍等一下。就像我，我是做石油和黄金的。

Wait, wait, hold on one second. It's like me, I'm an oil and gold guy.

对。

Right.

我拥有金矿。我把它们上市。用公众的钱投资石油...我是说石油或黄金。我在犹他州有家黄金公司，每次发现新金矿，公司股价就会上涨。

I own gold mines. I, I take them public. So I take the public's money to oil. I mean oil or for gold. So I have a company in Utah, gold company and every time we strike more gold, the share of my company goes up.

没错。

Right.

我的财富基本上是通过公司股价实现的。我的石油公司也一样，我们从公开市场融资，钻探石油，出油时就能赚钱。这和那个水手做的差不多吧？

My exodus kind of through the share price of my company. The same as my oil company, we borrow money from the open markets, public markets, and we drill for oil and we make money when we strike oil. Is that kind of what's a sailor's doing?

是的，但周转时间短得多。比如你从公开市场借钱钻探石油，可能要几年后才能出油。而他做的是从公开市场借钱后，一小时内就转换成比特币，不过原理很相似。

It is, but the turn time is much shorter. So for example, you borrow money from a public market to go drill for oil and then you'll hit the oil, but that could be years potentially in between. What what he's doing is he's borrowing money from the public market and within an hour converting into Bitcoin, but but very similar.

这很诱人。

It's tempting.

这很诱人，但下一步才是真正有趣的地方。如果你想想银行...我认为创造财富的两个关键，罗伯特，第一是杠杆。如何利用...你称之为智能信贷对吧？生产性资本，生产性信贷对吧？所以第一是杠杆。

It's tempting, but the next step is where it gets real interesting. So if you think about a bank So I think the two keys that I talk about with building wealth, Robert, is one, leverage. So how can I use And you call it smart credit, right? Productive capital, productive credit, right? So one, the leverage.

如何利用信贷或杠杆购买能偿还债务并产生额外收益的生产性资产？这是其一。第二是套利。如何利用两个市场相互对冲，比如用信贷市场对冲石油市场？他现在还做的是筹集资金购买比特币，现在他有了比特币作为基础资产层，接下来要...他意识到虽然比特币是最好的资产（在我看来是作弊码），过去三年平均复合年增长率达60%。

How can I use some use credit or leverage to buy a productive asset that can pay for the debt plus more? That's one. And then the second is arbitrage. How do I leverage two markets against each other so I can leverage the credit market against the oil market? So what he's done also is now he's raised money to buy Bitcoin and now that he has the Bitcoin as a base layer, as an asset, what do I do with Well, what he's recognized is while Bitcoin is the best asset to own, in my opinion, it's the cheat code, in the last three years it's averaged a 60% compound annual growth rate.

今年以来涨幅也在60%左右。他说这很棒，能拯救很多婴儿潮一代的退休金，但如果你78岁靠固定收入生活，不可能持有比特币五年，也无法承受波动。我得支付账单对吧？要买药、交电费。

This year to date, it's also about 60%. So what he's done is he said, hey, that's great and it can save a lot of these boomers' retirements, but if you're, say, 78 years old on fixed income, you can't go hold Bitcoin for five years and you can't sum it to volatility. I gotta pay my bills. Right? I need to pay for my medication, my electricity.

所以迈克尔·塞勒说：好吧，你把钱给我，我来买比特币。我保证给你10%的收益，由我来处理波动和承担风险。于是他创造了所谓的优先工具——优先股。

So Michael Saylor says this, fine. You give me the money. I'll buy Bitcoin. I'll give you 10% yield guaranteed, and I'll handle the volatility and take the risk. So he's created what's called preferred instruments, preferred stock.

共有四种，简单说就是Strike、Strife、Stride，最新的是Stretch（STRC）。你可以在经纪账户购买，它会支付10.5%收益。当你给他钱时，这属于信贷，他会支付你10%收益。

There's four of them. I'll keep it simple, but strike, strife, stride, and the new one is stretch, s t r c. You can buy it in your brokerage account. And it's gonna pay you 10.5%, so when you give him money, he's it's credit. He's gonna pay you 10%.

他会用这些钱买比特币，赚取50%的利差。最妙的是罗伯特...举个简单例子（我先休息下）。当你购买分红股票时，是基于对未来现金流的预期。如果我买AT&T的分红股，是希望AT&T未来有现金流。

He's gonna buy Bitcoin, and he'll make the 50% margin. And the beauty of this, Robert I'll I'll just give you one example. I'll I'll take a break. But when you buy dividend paying stocks, you're buying them based off of the future expectation of cashflow. If I buy an AT and T dividend stock, I hope that AT and T has cashflow in the future.

但在AI颠覆一切的当下，如何保证未来仍有现金流？他的独特之处在于：当你给他资金时，他会购买资产，并以资产为基础支付小部分收益分成。即便今天起不再进账一分钱，他也足以偿还120年的债务。因此这是你能买到最安全的信贷工具，其收益率约是其他资产或信贷产品的两倍。

But with AI disrupting everything, what guarantee is that there will be cashflow in the future? The difference that he's doing is when you give him money, he buys the asset and he's paying a small percentage of revenue off of an asset base and today, if he never took in another penny, he could pay the debt obligation for one hundred and twenty years. So it's the safest type of credit instrument that you can buy and it pays about double what other assets are paying or credit.

没错。这正是肯·麦克罗伊和我的运作模式。我们购入不动产，利用杠杆债务获取收益，同时还会分摊贷款。

Right. That's what Ken McElroy and I do. We buy a piece of real estate. We use leverage debt and the income comes off of it. Plus we amortize our loans.

我们覆盖所有开支后，将剩余收益返还给投资者共享。

We cover all expenses and the income comes off and we share that back with our investors.

对。

Right.

这就是他采用的商业模式。

The kind of the model he's using.

是的，就是这个模式。你们用杠杆收购房地产，再通过套利赚取更高比例收益，分给投资者小部分后保留差额。这就是他的策略——主动包揽所有工作。

Yeah, it's the model. So you're using leverage to buy the real estate and then you're using arbitrage. So you'll make the bigger percentage and you'll give the investors a small piece of it and you keep the difference. That's what he's doing. He's like, Hey, I'll take all the work.

我承担全部工作、琐事、波动和风险，而你只需坐享分成。同时用这些资产作为担保。这与你们的房地产运作模式非常相似。

I'll do all the work, all the messy stuff, the volatility, the risk, and I'll just give you a percentage for doing nothing. And also cure it against this asset. So very similar to what you do with real estate. And

然后还有汤姆·李（Tom Lee）与以太币或以太坊（Ethereum），抱歉。那边是什么情况？

then you have Tom Lee with Ether or Ethereum, excuse me. What's happening there?

是的。要知道，目前最大的两种加密货币是比特币和以太坊。本质上区别在于——可以把以太坊视为其他所有加密货币的代表。现在市面上有1900万种代币，但比特币被政府定义为数字商品，意味着全球任何人都能获取它，就像我能在世界任何地方获取黄金、种植橙子或开采石油一样，无论从哪里获取石油都具有可替代性。而证券是由企业发行的，存在依赖管理者的控制权，以太坊就属于这类。

Yeah. So, you know, the two biggest cryptocurrencies are Bitcoin and Ethereum. And really the difference, could use Ethereum as all other crypto. There's 19,000,000 other tokens at this point, but Bitcoin is a digital commodity, has been defined by the government, meaning that anybody in the world can get it, like I can get gold anywhere in the world or grow oranges anywhere in the world or grow for oil anywhere in the world and no matter where I get the oil, it's fungible. A security is something that a company starts, there's a controlling interest that's dependent on the people that run it, so that's like Ethereum.

以太坊有Consensus团队、约瑟夫·鲁宾（Joseph Lubin）和维塔利克·布特林（Vitalik Buterin）在运营，更像是一家公司。他们希望有朝一日成为全球超级计算机。汤姆·李（网络人称Fun Strat）是个聪明人，他决定效仿迈克尔·塞勒（Michael Saylor）用以太坊运作。他的项目几个月前启动，表现惊人，据说募资300亿美元，此后以太坊价格持续上涨。

There's Consensus, there's Joseph Lubin and Vitalik Buterin, and they run it, so it's sort of like a company. And they hope to be like the supercomputer of the world one day. And so Tom Lee, Fun Strat as he's known online, a very smart guy, he's decided to do the same thing that Michael Saylor's doing using Ethereum. Now his launch was a few months ago and it performed amazingly well. I think he raised $30,000,000,000 and the price of Ethereum has been pumping since then.

那你个人怎么看以太坊和比特币？我两个都持有。

I mean, what's your personal opinion of Ethereum versus Bitcoin? I have both.

从兑美元表现看，以太坊确实非常出色。但若以比特币（而非美元）计价，它从未突破过历史第二高位。所以从绩效基准看，它不如比特币。我猜你想问的是：这类资金储备公司能否像比特币储备公司那样成功？

Well, I mean, Ethereum has performed amazingly well against US dollars. When you measure Ethereum's performance in Bitcoin, not dollars but Bitcoin, it's down. It's never been able to make a second all time high priced in Bitcoin turn. So performance basis, it hasn't done as well as Bitcoin. The question I think maybe you're asking is like, will that type of a treasury company work as well as a Bitcoin treasury company?

这太新了还需观察，但我不确定用公司作为储备资产是否合理，因为这伴随着大量运营风险。而比特币只是商品，是一段代码协议，没有这些附加风险。

And it's so new, we'll have to see, but I don't know if it makes sense to use a company as a treasury asset because there's a lot of operational risk that comes with that versus Bitcoin's just a commodity. It's just a piece of code, it's a protocol. And so you don't have all that risk that's associated with it.

对，你的意思是《富爸爸》公司是运营公司，但我们的使命不是收购比特币。我个人会囤积比特币，但公司使命不是构建比特币体系。等会儿回来我们要讨论的是：婴儿潮一代是首批拥有401k养老金计划的群体，1974年前流行的是固定收益计划。

Yeah, what you're saying is that Rich Dad company is an operating company, but our mission is not to acquire Bitcoin. I save Bitcoin personally. I save it even personally, the company mission is not to build Bitcoin. So when we come back and we're gonna talk to you about this is that the baby boom generation, you know, the, the first generation with a thing called a four zero one ks that were called to find contribution pension plans. Prior to 1974, there was a thing called to find benefit.

固定收益是我父亲享有的养老金计划，你知道，夏威夷州保证他每月能拿到一千美元直到去世。但如果是固定缴款计划，如果我像我可怜的父亲那样做，假设我的退休账户里有10万美元，一旦通货膨胀爆发，这10万就化为乌有了。你明白这种困境吧。等到你80岁时，就会陷入绝境。所以我想回来谈谈这个问题。

And defined benefit was the pension plan my father had that, you know, the state of Hawaii guaranteed him, let's say a thousand dollars a month till the day he died. But with a defined contribution, you know, if, if, if I did the same thing as my poor dad did, and let's say I had a $100,000 in my retirement account and inflation takes off, the 100,000 is gone. You understand the predicament there. And then you're like 80 years old and you're up the, up the creek without a paddle. So I want to come back.

我想和你们聊聊老一辈的做法。我的意思是，他们怎么能——再次声明，这不是投资节目。我们不提供建议。我只是告诉人们我的做法，马克分享我们的做法，但我们不建议别人效仿。

I want to talk to you about what the old guys do. I mean, how can they, again, this is not, we're not an investment show. We don't make recommendations. I tell people what I do. Mark tells people what we do, he does, but we don't recommend doing what we do.

所以当我回来时，假设你是个婴儿潮一代，现在快65岁了却一无所有。B马克，你的策略是什么？凭借你对以太坊、比特币等加密货币的了解，你会如何自救？因为随着年龄增长，开支不会减少，反而会因为医疗费用而增加。

So when I come back, if you were a baby boomer, let's say you're pushing 65 now and you got nothing. What was your strategy, B Mark? Knowing what you know about Ethereum, Bitcoin and all that, how would you save your butt? Because what happens is when you get older, your expenses don't go down. They actually go up because medical kicks in.

我们稍后会回来，与这里最懂行的马克·莫斯讨论老一辈如何利用加密货币自救。我们不推荐这种方式，只是进行探讨。我们马上回来。

So we come back, we're gonna talk to Mark Moss here, one of smartest guys to know about how could an old guy save their butt using crypto. We recommend it, we're just gonna be talking about it. We'll be right back.

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登录www.northwestregisteredagent.com/richdadfree获取西北注册代理的更多服务。拥有房子很棒，对吧？直到出现问题——前一秒你还在喝咖啡，下一秒爆裂的水管就让积水漫过脚踝。

Get more with Northwest Registered Agent at www.northwestregisteredagent.com/richdadfree. Owning a home is amazing. Right? Until it's not. One minute, you're sipping coffee, the next, you're ankle deep in water from a burst pipe.

维修从不讲究时机，更不会顾及你的预算。常规的房屋保险通常不涵盖日常磨损。管道故障、空调系统崩溃、电路问题，这些往往都得你自己承担。HomeServe二十多年来一直帮助像您这样的业主，拥有覆盖全国2600多家本地承包商的可靠网络。我知道当我需要帮助时，我会联系HomeServe。

Repairs don't care about timing, and they definitely don't care about your budget. Regular homeowners insurance usually doesn't cover a lot of day to day wear and tear. Plumbing failures, HVAC breakdowns, electrical issues, you're often on your own for those. HomeServe has helped homeowners like you for over twenty years with a trusted national network of over 2,600 local contractors. I know that when I need help, I'll call HomeServe.

记得有年夏天我的空调坏了，大家都知道紧急维修服务费用有多高。很庆幸有HomeServe作为后盾，让我安心无忧。通过HomeServe的保护计划，既能守护您的家居系统，又能节省维修开支。每月仅需4.99美元起。访问homeserve.com选择适合您的方案。

I remember when my air conditioning went out in the middle of summer, and we all know how expensive emergency service calls can get. It's great to know that I have the peace of mind of HomeServe and that they've got my back. Help protect your home systems and your wallet with HomeServe against covered repairs. Plans start at just $4.99 a month. Go to homeserve.com to find the plan that's right for you.

网址是homeserve.com。

That's homeserve.com.

欢迎回来，欢迎回来，欢迎回来。这里是《富爸爸电台节目》。今天我们特别邀请到加密货币领域我最钦佩的智者之一——马克·莫斯。

Welcome back. Welcome back. Welcome back. Rich Dad Radio Show. Today, our special guest is Mark Moss, one of the smartest guys I know in the world of crypto.

在今天的讨论中，我们要再次探讨的是——我们不做任何投资建议。这不是投资咨询节目，但我们会分享面临类似处境时的可能选择。我的故事是这样的：47岁通过房地产投资退休，但运用了杠杆——用贷款购置房产，再用租金收入实现财务自由。金37岁退休，我47岁。

And we're talking, we're gonna find out how, again, we we make no recommendations. We're not an investment advisory show, but we'll tell you what we might do if we had to do it. It's just my story is this, is that I retired at 47 using real estate, but I used debt. So I used debt to buy these properties and the income from the properties paid for me to retire. Kim was 37, I was 47.

47岁那年我写了《富爸爸穷爸爸》，整个事业轨迹就此改变。如今我的版税收入已远超房地产收益，颇具讽刺意味。退休本是好事，除非你年老体衰又身无分文。马克，假设你是个65-70岁的老人，401k账户岌岌可危——就像我在《谁偷走了我的养老金》里写的——我们的养老金确实被窃取了。这种情况下你会怎么做？

So today, and at 47, I wrote a book called rich dad, poor dad, and the whole shooting match took off again, you know? So I was made, I make as I make a lot more money today than from my books than I do for my real estate. It's ironic. So retirement can be a good thing except if you're old and feeble and out of money. So Mark, if you were an old guy, let's say 65 or 70 and your four zero one ks looks tenuous or your retirement is tenuous because, I wrote a book called who stole my pension.

既然养老金已被盗取，你会采取什么策略？假设马克你现在65岁，精通加密货币知识，如何从零开始规划？

Our pensions have been stolen. So what would you do? How would it, what kind of strategy, let's say Mark, you're 65 years old, you know all this about crypto. How would you do it starting from nothing?

这取决于你需要的时间框架和资金数额，但让我们简化问题。我们会从几个不同角度来讨论。首先我想快速说明，退休后无所事事不应该是我们的终极目标，罗伯特。你47岁退休了，但现在还在工作。你身后有两年的游戏经验。

It depends on the timeframe and the amount of money that you need, but let's make this simple. We'll talk about it in a couple of different ways. So the first thing is I just wanna say real quick, retirement as far as doing nothing shouldn't be our ultimate goal, Robert. You retired at 47, but here you are working. It's about two year game that you have behind you.

关键在于让自己从激烈竞争中解脱出来。这样你就能专注于想做的事。不是摆脱工作，而是获得选择工作的自由。但让我们谈谈，如果你在财务上稍有落后，就像你身后棋盘游戏所显示的，需要多少资金才能跳出这种竞争。而比特币和加密货币整体为我们提供了前所未有的机会，因为它是历史上任何时间段内表现最好的资产。

It's about freeing yourself from the rat race. So you can work on things you want to do. So not freedom from work, but freedom to work on what you want. But let's talk about if you're sort of behind on the amount of money that you need to break out of a rat race as you have on the board game behind you. And so Bitcoin and crypto in general gives us this opportunity that we haven't had before because it's been the best performing asset in history and any timeframe.

无论是十五年、十年、五年、三年还是今年，它都是最佳资产。这让我们有机会弥补所需的收益。我相信这种趋势会持续有几个原因，但主要是我们正在见证货币数字化，而数字资产总是比实物资产流动更快。我们所说的数字化货币——数字资本，将超越标普500指数中的实体企业。标普500中的生产型企业总会比信贷表现更好。

So the best asset in fifteen years, ten years, five years, three years, and this year. So that gives us this opportunity to make up that gain that we need. Now I believe this will continue for a couple different reasons, but mainly what we're witnessing is the digitalization of money and digital assets will always move faster than physical assets. So the digitization of money, digital capital as we call it, will outperform the S and P 500, which is companies, brick and mortar. And S and P 500 productive businesses will always do better than credit.

我们有这三个市场。迈克尔·塞勒指出，比特币在未来21年将保持至少30%的年复合增长率。就按这个来算。这意味着如果我今天有1万美元，十年后将变成200万美元。这就是复利的魔力。

So we have those three markets. Michael Saylor states that Bitcoin will continue to have at least a 30% compound annual growth rate for the next twenty one years. So let's go with that. What that means is if I have $10,000 today, that will be $2,000,000 in ten years. That's how compounding works.

今天的1万，十年后就是200万。这样你就能弥补很大差距。我认为比特币在未来五六年可能达到百万美元级别。从当前价格看约有8到10倍增长空间。我预测到2030或2031年它会涨到百万美元左右。

10,000 today becomes 2,000,000 in ten years. So you can make up a lot of room. I think that Bitcoin can achieve around a million dollars in next five or six years. It's about a eight to 10 X from here today. So I think it, I project it will hit about a million dollars by 2030, 2031.

这样就能维持50%的年复合增长率。过去三年是60%，我认为未来四年将保持在50%。这意味着如果我退休账户里有10万美元，全部买入比特币，五六年后就可能价值百万。那么，我们能靠这个退休吗？

So that would maintain a 50% compound annual growth rate. So over the last three years, it's been 60. I'm saying it will continue at 50 for the rest of the decade, the next four years. That means that if I had a 100,000 in my retirement account, I could buy a 100,000 of Bitcoin and that could be worth about a million dollar in five or six years. Now, do we retire off of this?

这是第一部分——如何迎头赶上？如果你落后了，可以配置部分比特币，预计未来五到二十年的年复合收益率在30%到50%之间。

So that's the first part, how do we make up ground? So if you're behind, you can put some into Bitcoin, it's projected to return somewhere between 50, maybe down to 30% compounding over the next five, ten, twenty years.

这对我来说很难，因为我头脑简单。知道吗，我只是，我是说，我认同这个假设。比特币的设计就是为了胜出，因为总量只有2100万枚，而现在我们几乎已经挖出了2100万。这就是为什么全球市场转向比特币时，他们确实代表着全世界。所以当有人说比特币现在值10万美元，到2025年10月，五年后就会值100万美元。

That's tough for me because I'm real simple. Know, I just, I mean, I agree with the assumption. You know, Bitcoin was designed to win because it's only 21,000,000 And we're almost at 21 right now. So that's why with the world market coming to Bitcoin, they do mean the world. So when somebody says, well, Bitcoin has to say a 100,000 today, October 2025, it's gonna be a million in five years.

我眼睛都不眨一下。我说这是可能的。没有什么能阻止它。我问你，假设我现在65岁，今天以10万美元买入，五年后价值百万美元。

I don't blink. I said it's possible. Nothing has caught it. My question to you is let's say, some, let's say I'm 65 years old. I buy it today at a 100,000 has worth a million dollars five years from now.

我怎么实现现金流？就像我的房地产不断升值，现金流持续增长。所以我每年都变得更富有。但有些人买了房子又卖掉，最后手里什么资产都没有了。

How would I cash flow it? Like my real estate just gets more valuable and my cash flow keeps going up. So I get richer every year. Happens is like some people buy their house, then they sell it. They have no asset anymore.

他们只有资本利得。

They have capital gains.

是啊。

Yeah.

一个人要怎么操作呢？他今天花10万买比特币，五年后值百万美元。这些都只是猜测罢了。

How would a person take, he buy a 100,000 Bitcoin today. It's a million dollars in five years. Let's say These are just guesses.

我的想法是：你买一处房产能获得6%或8%的收益，这笔资本会持续产生现金流。你不出售资产，而是获取现金流。但如果我们换个角度更广义地看待收入，比如用第一性原理思考：如果我花10万买套房，一年后20万卖出，这就是收入——但必须出售资产才能实现。

So what I think about is you buy a piece of real estate and it's gonna give you a six or 8% yield, this capital that you get from it. You don't sell the asset, you get the cash flow from it. But I would say if we look at income just a little bit different and maybe more broad, like a first principle approach. If I bought a property for 100,000 and a year later sold it for 200,000, that's income. I had to sell the asset.

比特币每年上涨50%，但它不像比特币那样产生收益。按照你的观点，我必须卖掉它并缴税，这样我就失去了资产复利的机会，这很糟糕。所以我们想做的就是利用债务，通过债务杠杆来获取部分增值收益。

So Bitcoin is going up at 50% per year, but it doesn't produce a yield like Bitcoin. So to your point, I would have to sell it and I would pay tax and then I no longer have the asset compounding, which is terrible. So what we wanna do is we wanna use debt and what we can do is we can harvest some of the appreciation with debt leverage.

增值。简单来说，假设今天价值10万，十年后可能价值100万。

Appreciation. Let's keep it simple. It's a, let's say a 100,000 today and it's a million dollars in ten years, let's say.

是的。

Yeah.

你会如何获取其中的收益呢？

How would you harvest that gain in there?

如果比特币每年上涨30%，假设五年后我持有100万比特币，每年增值30%，我可以每年永久性地借出10%到15%的资金，因为它每年增值30%，而我只需支付15%的借款成本。

So if Bitcoin is going up by 50%, let's call it 30, if it continues to go up at 30% in five years from now, I have a million dollars of Bitcoin now, it's going up at 30% a year, I could borrow 10 to 15% against it every year in perpetuity because it's going up by 30. I'm only borrowing at 15.

所以你会用它作为抵押借款？

So you would you would borrow against it?

我会用它作为抵押借款，并且每年滚动债务。第一年我有100万（假设现在有10万），五年后变成100万。我会免税借出15万并花掉这笔钱，第二年再借30万。

I would borrow against it and I would roll the debt every year. So in year one, I have a mil so I I have a 100,000 today. In five years, it's a million. I would borrow a 150,000 against that tax free, and I would spend that 150,000. Next year I would borrow 300.

我会还清那1.5美元，同时保持1.5美元的税率。到了第二年，用4.5美元偿还300美元债务，税率仍保持1.5美元。

I'd pay off the $1.50. I'd keep the $1.50 tax rate. The next year, bottle $4.50 pay off the 300, keep the $1.50 tax.

通过收益来分期偿还原始贷款，然后借入更多资金。用这些收益继续偿还贷款。

Gain to amortize the original loan and then borrow more. Use the gain to amortize the loan.

没错。只要比特币的年复合增长率高于债务利息，我就能永远这样操作下去。

That's right. And and as long as Bitcoin's compound annual growth is higher than the than the interest on the debt, I can do that forever.

简直太聪明了。简直太聪明了。

Freaking brilliant. Freaking brilliant.

这是跟你学的，罗伯特。我从你那里学到的。所以我们永远不出售持续复利的资产，也永远不缴税。然后人们常问我：罗伯特，这很棒马克，但什么时候该还清债务呢？

I learned it from you, Robert. I learned it from you. And so we never sell the asset till it continues to compound. I never pay the tax. And then the next question people ask me, Robert, is, well, that's great, Mark, but when would I pay off the debt?

我的回答是永远不还。唯一需要还债的情况是资产增长率低于债务成本。但由于我们同时运作数字市场、实体市场和信贷市场，其表现应该总能超越信贷市场——就像房地产债务那样。

And my answer is never. Never. The only time you never pay off the debt is if the growth rate was below the cost of the debt. But because we're leveraging digital markets, physical markets and credit markets, it should only outperform a credit market just like real estate debt.

我经常被问到这个问题。你知道，我常听汤姆·李的观点，他是个非常聪明的人。他看好以太坊，因为以太坊将成为稳定币的基础架构。我觉得这想法绝妙极了——稳定币就是他们要创造一种锚定传统货币价值的新型代币，比如通过购买黄金来维持币值稳定。

So I'm asked this question, know, because I'll listen to Tom Lee, smart, smart dude. And he likes Ethereum because Ethereum is going to be the building blocks for stable coins. And I thought that's absolutely brilliant. So a stable coin is, you know, they're going to create a coin, but it's going to go back to the old fashioned style of money. Stable coin would actually buy gold to make it stable.

但以太坊更像是底层的主力军。他们可以购买房地产，也可以购买债券作为资产。稳定币购买资产，而以太坊则是这一切背后的主力。就我理解而言，比特币就像是黄金。

But Ethereum is kind of the workhorse underneath of it. Or they could buy real estate or they could buy bonds as as the asset. So the stable coin buys the asset, but Ethereum is the workhorse underneath of all this. So that as as much as I understand. So to me, what that sounds like is Bitcoin is gold.

以太坊是白银。要知道白银是一种实用金属，而黄金则是——

Ethereum is silver. See silver is a working metal. Gold is-

是的，我的看法略有不同。我会把以太坊比作亚马逊网络服务，就像亚马逊数据中心。每当以太坊区块链上发生一笔交易，他们就能收取小额费用。所以它不完全是白银。比特币可以同时是黄金和白银，因为它能以光速流通。

Yeah, I would look at it a little bit differently. I would call Ethereum like Amazon Web Services, like Amazon Data Center. So every time a transaction happens on the Ethereum blockchain, they would get a little fee. So it's not really silver. Bitcoin can be gold and silver together because it can move at the speed of light.

但以太坊更多是从每笔链上交易中分得一杯羹。正如你所说，如果在它上面构建所有稳定币，每次稳定币交易发生时，都可能有一小部分费用通过ATM网络流转。

But Ethereum more gets a piece of every transaction that happens on it. So to your point, if you build all the stable coins on it, every time a stable coin transaction happens, there could be a little piece of a fee that goes through the ATM network.

好吧。马克，作为一个老家伙，我现在的处境是——可悲的是我赚得更多了，因为当他们印钞时，资产就会升值。他们印钞，我的房地产就更值钱了。

Okay. So all I'm doing being an old guy, Mark, know, just, I mean, the sad thing is I'm making so much more money because when they print money, Assets go up. So they print money. My real estate gets more valuable.

没错。

Right.

但他们印钞时，通货膨胀也会加剧。

But also when they print money, inflation goes up.

是啊。

Yeah.

所以我看到资产增值，但牛奶和鸡肉的价格也在飞涨。

So I see asset, but it also inflates milk and chickens.

没错。

Yeah.

我去吃晚餐时就在想，现在谁还吃得起饭？虽然我的资产在增值。但其他方面呢？因为房地产这类资产价格正在飙升。

I go to dinner. I said, how does somebody afford dinner? But my assets are going up. But what else is happening? Cause assets are going up in price like real estate.

人们无家可归。我是说，现在这个世界有点乱套了。

People are homeless. I mean, it's kind of a screwed world right now.

这是个非常、非常混乱的世界。如你所知罗伯特，这是系统运作的必然结果，不是漏洞而是特性。自从尼克松1971年让美元脱离金本位，就切断了所有联系——我们从权益本位转向了债务货币体系。这意味着货币通过债务发行产生，在这种体系下，债务本身就成了资产，或者说成了更多债务的抵押品。

It's a very, it's a very screwed world. And as you know, Robert, it's a, it's the function of the system and it's not a bug, it's a feature. So when Nixon took us off of the gold standard in 1971, he severed all ties and we're in a debt based, we went from an equity base to now a debt based monetary system. And so that means that the money is created through debt issuance. And that means that in that type of a system, the debt becomes the asset or collateral for more debt.

因此这个体系必须持续扩张。这就是为什么鲍威尔和美联储说他们目标是2%的通胀率——实际更高，但官方目标是2%。他们的目标就是每年只窃取你2%的财富，相当于每五年掠夺你10%的财富。这就是他们的目的。

And so in that system, it has to always grow. It's why Jerome Powell and the Federal Reserve says our target is 2% inflation. It's higher than that, but our goal is 2%. So their goal is to only steal two percent a year or that's 10% of your wealth every five years. That's their goal.

我认为人们越早明白这个道理越好——通胀不会消失。政府的目标就是制造通胀，这会掠夺我的财富，让食品和汽油更贵。这不是漏洞，而是设计如此。这意味着随着通胀持续，资产价格会不断上涨。

And I think the sooner that people can understand that, it doesn't go away. It's the goal of the government to inflate the economy, which steals my wealth, makes my food more expensive, my gas more expensive. That's not a bug, that's the feature. That means that as that inflation continues, these asset prices will keep going up.

是的。马克的意思是当他们印钞时，如果你是现金储蓄者，你就完蛋了。

Yeah. What Mark is saying is that when they print money, if you're a saver of cash, you're screwed.

对。

Yeah.

但如果你持有比特币、以太坊或房地产，你就是赢家。

But if you've saved Bitcoin or Ethereum, you win or real estate.

没错。

Yeah.

普通人还抱着上学、找工作、存钱的老观念，那就有麻烦了。美国现在是全球最大债务国，债务从36万亿飙到37万亿，而且不会停止。债务越涨，以太坊和比特币的价值就越高。你同意这个观点吗？

The average person who all thinking like go to school, get a job and save money, you're in trouble because the America's not the biggest debtor nation in the world. It went from what 36,000,000,000,000 to 37,000,000,000,000 in debt and they're not gonna stop. So the more that the debt goes up, Ethereum goes up in value or Bitcoin goes up in value. Would you concur with that?

正是如此。这就是正在发生的——资产在升值。问题在于：当潮水（通胀）上涨时，所有船只（资产）都会上浮。但哪些资产涨得最快呢？

Right. So that's what's happening. The assets are going up. And then the question is, like, so when the tide rises, the inflation goes up, the boats go up as well. But which assets go up the fastest?

那么黄金会如何反应？房地产会如何反应？标普500指数会如何反应？我们看到比特币是最敏感的。由于其稀缺性，它的敏感度是8.9倍，或者说比其他资产快约10倍。

And so how does gold respond? How does real estate respond? How does the S and P 500 respond? And what we've seen is that Bitcoin is the most sensitive. So it has an 8.9 times sensitivity or moved about 10 times faster than other assets because of its scarce nature.

但这就是它的功能啊，罗伯特。

But that's the exact function Robert.

是啊。还有一点是，它并不总是上涨，也会暴跌。

Yeah. And other thing too is up, it doesn't always go up. It crashes too.

确实。

Sure.

你知道吗，当我给一个朋友看这个时——我手机上有比特币价格走势图之类的。他说：‘跌了10%？’我说：‘是啊。’他说：‘那我可不敢碰。’他是个上了年纪的人，还在存现金，觉得现金更安全。但实际上他还是在吃亏，因为债务不断上升，他们还在不断印钞。

You know, and so when I showed this one guy, I had my little, on my, on my iPhone is my price of bitcoin and all this. He says, it went down like 10%? I said, yeah. He says, well, I'm not gonna touch it. So he said, old guy like me, he's still saving cash because he feels safer in cash, but he's getting screwed anyway because our debt keeps going up and they keep printing more cash.

对吧？

Right?

这就是当今世界正在发生的事情吗？

Is that how is that what's going on with the world right now?

确实如此，但我对那家伙有个好办法。你得考虑资金的期限问题，对吧？比如我有多急需这笔钱？短期内不需要的钱，我可以锁定更长时间。就像你建大型商业楼时，通常需要四五年才能回本，对吧？

It is, but I have a good solution for that guy. So you need to think about the duration of the money, right? So like how keen do I need it? So money that I don't need as soon, I can lock up for longer periods of time. Like when you do one of your big commercial buildings, that's gonna take four or five years to turn, for example, right?

所以你不会把下周要交房租的钱投进那些项目里。我们想根据资金需求期限来分类，看看迈克尔·塞勒的策略如何为投资者提供选择。低波动性换取低回报，在保障安全性的同时保留超额收益的可能性。我很乐意为你详细解析。

So you wouldn't put money I need for rent next week into one of those projects. And so we wanna break it down by the time duration that we need the money and what's happening with Michael Saylor and strategies in giving investors options for that. Lower volatility for lower returns and giving them some of the safety back but still the option to have outside the turn. I'd love to break that down for you.

说实话我没太听懂。我只想收收租金。现在无家可归者激增，很多是吸毒等问题导致的，但更多人是因为根本负担不起生活——毕竟现在连房子看起来都不那么值钱了。再加上AI还要抢走他们的工作，我们简直陷入了一场巨大的困境。

Well, went over my head. I just like to collect the rent. And then, you know, the home, homelessness is exploding and a lot of that's through drugs and all this stuff, but a lot of it, they can't afford to live anymore because it doesn't look so worthless. And then AI is gonna take their jobs anyway. So, I mean, we're in a big, big screw job right now.

如今流落街头的人里有一半是婴儿潮一代。这真是个棘手的问题。知道吗？现在新增的无家可归者中，整整一半都来自婴儿潮世代。一半啊。

Half of the people going on the skid row today are are baby boomers. It's a big predicament. They're what? Half half of half of people going on to skid row into homelessness today are baby boomers. Half of them.

这是个严重的问题。

It's a big problem.

总之马克，感谢你的真知灼见。你简直是我认识的最聪明的人。继续保持，大家该怎么联系你呢马克？

Anyway, Mark, thank you for your wisdom. I mean, brilliant, like the smartest guys I know. Keep up the good work. How do people stay in touch with you, Mark?

是的，在推特关注@MarkMoss，或者上YouTube直接搜索Mark Moss，我有大量详细解析这类话题的视频。

Yeah. Just follow me on Twitter at one Mark Moss or go onto YouTube. Just search Mark Moss on YouTube, and I have all these types of videos broken down into greater detail for you.

我的建议是，要知道，我喜欢YouTube，因为像马克·莫斯这样的人会说比特币很好。而另一些人则会说比特币很糟糕。你应该看看双方的观点，因为他们各有立场。总之，马克，再次感谢你。感谢这些年来的友谊，继续保持好工作。

And what I recommend is, know, I like YouTube because guys like Mark Moss will say Bitcoin is good. And there's other guys who will say Bitcoin sucks. And you wanna look at both sides because they are both at their points of view. Anyway, Mark, thanks again. Thanks for all the years of friendship and keep up the good work.

谢谢你，罗伯特。

Thank you, Robert.

我们马上回来。

And we'll be right back.

我多年前就写过，世界历史上最大的崩盘即将来临。现在崩盘正在发生。婴儿潮一代正在失去他们的退休金。许多人将被迫搬去和子女同住。这让我心碎。

I wrote years ago that the biggest crash in world history was coming. The crash is happening now. Baby boomers are losing their retirements. Many will be forced to move in with their kids. It breaks my heart.

几十年来我一直在警告你们这一点。问题很简单。人们信任纸质资产，认为存美元是安全的，但通货膨胀正在摧毁他们的积蓄。现金正在变成废纸。唯一的出路是持有实物资产、黄金，尤其是白银。

I have warned you about this for decades. The problem is simple. People trusted paper assets and believed saving dollars was safe, but inflation is destroying their savings. Cash, it's turning to trash. The only way out is with real assets, gold, and especially silver.

白银刚刚突破每盎司50美元。接下来可能会达到75美元，甚至100美元。这就是为什么我希望你获取《富爸爸2025年白银预测指南》。你将了解为什么白银上涨只是开始，以及如何将部分IRA或401k账户资金转入实物白银，免税且无罚款。

Silver just broke $50 an ounce. 75 could be next, maybe even 100. That's why I want you to get the rich dad 2025 silver forecast guide. You will learn why silver's rise is only the beginning and how to move part of your IRA or four zero one k into physical silver. Tax free, penalty free.

拨打(866) 703-9895或发送短信silver至24999。崩盘已经到来。不要等到你的积蓄消失殆尽。拨打(866) 703-9895，或发送短信silver至24999。白银是危机世界中的真实货币。

Call (866) 703-9895 or text silver to 24999. The crash is here. Do not wait until your savings disappear. Call (866) 703-9895, or text silver to 24999. Silver is real money for a world in crisis.

欢迎回来。我要感谢马克·马克·莫斯，你知道的，这次启发性访谈。看看他，他是个年轻人。我是老人，我努力理解这一切。但我很感激这位在场的人，R·巴克敏斯特·富勒博士，他写了《巨人的咕哝》，这本书代表全球大规模现金掠夺。

Welcome back. Wanna thank Mark Mark Moss, you know, for this, enlightening interview. Look at the He was a young guy. I'm the old guy and I struggle to understand it all. But I'm grateful for this man here, doctor R Buckminster Fuller, who wrote grunt of giants and grunt of giants stands for gross universal cash heist.

这就是我们的财富如何通过货币被窃取的。所以在《富爸爸穷爸爸》中我说储蓄者是输家，因为美元、比索、日元或欧元，它们的设计初衷就是通过通货膨胀和税收窃取你的财富。再次声明，我们不是投资公司，也不指导你该怎么做，但我们告诉人们我们的做法及原因。女士们先生们，这是个勇敢新世界，但请别固守旧思维。我打算拼命存钱，因为我不认为几年后钱还会存在。

It's how our wealth is stolen via our money. So that's why in rich dad, poor dad, I said savers are losers because the US dollar or any, the peso, the yen or the euro, you're just designed to steal your wealth through inflation and taxes. So once again, we we don't we're not an investment company, not telling you what to do, but we tell people what we do and why we do it. So ladies and gentlemen, it's a brave new world out there, but please don't have old thinking. I'm gonna save money until it hurts because I don't think it's gonna be there in a few years.

虚假货币的世界正在崩塌。这是我的观点，感谢你们通过《富爸爸》关注自己的财务未来。非常感谢大家。

The world of fake money is coming down. So that's my opinion, and I thank you all for paying attention to your financial future via rich dad. So thank you very much.

本播客由富爸爸媒体网络呈现。

This podcast is a presentation of Rich Dad Media Network.