警惕病毒式饮食

讨论让世界运转不息。

Discussion keeps the world turning.

这里是圆桌会议。

This is Roundtable.

您正在收听的是圆桌会议。

You're listening to Roundtable.

我是林永浩，与史蒂夫和玉山一同主持。

I'm Yong Ho Lin, joined by Steve and Yushan.

多年来，互联网一直宣称通过时间安排技巧、液体排毒或无碳水周等看似能重新定义生物学的方式可以快速减肥。

For years, the Internet has promised that weight loss can be hacked through timing tricks, liquid cleanses, or carb free weeks that seem to define biology itself.

但在光鲜的视频和前后对比照片背后，医生们看到的却是截然不同的景象。

But behind the glossy videos and before and after photos, doctors are seeing a very different picture.

急诊室就诊案例频发，新陈代谢系统崩溃，以及源自社交媒体而非科学依据的饮食方式。

Emergency room visits, collapsing metabolisms, and diets lifted from social media rather than science.

今天我们将探讨：为何这些速效方案频频失败，关于饥饿与健康的新研究真正揭示了什么，以及负责任的长期方法与算法推崇的方式有何不同。

Today, we look at why these fast fixes are failing, what new research actually tells us about hunger and health, and how a responsible long term approach differs from what the algorithm rewards.

如果你的脚看起来和我差不多，你可能被告知想要腹肌只需跳过早餐、戒掉碳水、免去咀嚼，或许干脆连快乐也一并舍弃。

If your feet looks anything like mine, you have probably been told that all you need for abs is skip breakfast, skip carbs, skip chewing, and maybe skip joy after all altogether.

但如果你昨晚收藏的神奇方法与其说是健康秘诀，不如说是个健康陷阱呢？

But what if the miracle method you saved last night is less of a wellness trick and more of a wellness trap?

今天，我们将剖析那些风靡网络的饮食法与其背后的现实差距。

Today, we break down the diets that go viral and the realities that don't.

让我们来做个判断。

Let's determine.

你正走在保持健康体魄的正轨上，还是把身体当作短期实验品？

Are you on the right track to be fit and healthy, or are you treating your body like short term experiments?

职责所在。

And duty as charged.

我尝试过一些极端节食法。

I do some crazy diets.

稍后我会分享些个人经历。

I'll share that personal experience a bit later.

但这是怎么回事？

But what is going on?

我们为什么要讨论这个？

Why are we talking about this?

人们使用或实践这些饮食方式时发生了什么严重的事情吗？

Any serious things happening with people using or, you know, practicing these diets?

嗯，是的。

Well, yeah.

最近有个关于北京居民琼斯小姐的新闻。

There's one recent news happening on a Beijing resident named miss Jones.

琼斯小姐一直在尝试一种流行的纯液体饮食。

So miss Jones, she's been following a viral liquid only diet.

他们称之为饮食方式，但在琼斯小姐的案例中，这导致她紧急送医，并在办公桌前昏厥。

We they they call it a diet, but apparently, in miss Jones case, that caused her emergency trip to the hospital and which led to a blackout blackout at her office desk.

非常严重。

Very serious.

意思是只摄入液体，完全不进食任何固体食物。

Meaning that liquid only, that she doesn't take any food.

她只喝水作为

She just take water as a

哦，你试过吗？

Oh, point of you did?

我试过。

I did.

大学时我尝试过一周，实在受不了。

When I was in college, I tried it for a week, couldn't bear.

但理论上你还是会摄入碳水化合物，因为流质食物里含有糖分。

But the idea is that you still consume kinda like carb because there's sugar in the liquid form of food you take.

是啊。

Yeah.

而且我觉得当时主要是受不了不能咀嚼东西的感觉。

And also but I think at that time, it was because I couldn't stand not chewing things.

我试过，对我来说没那么严重，但肯定不适合所有人。

But I tried it, but it was not that serious for me, but definitely not for everybody.

我之前从没听说过这个，所以查了一下。

I had never heard of this before, so I looked it up.

我不确定新闻里那位张女士是不是在做这个，但全流质饮食是指只摄入液体或在室温下会变成液体的食物。

And I'm not sure if this is what miss Zhang was doing, the the lady from the news, but a full liquid diet is where you only consume liquids or foods that turn into liquid at room temperature.

对。

Right.

比如酸奶、过滤汤、果汁、冰淇淋或奶昔之类的。

For example, like yogurt or strained soups or fruit juice or ice cream or milkshakes.

是的。

Yeah.

所以这些东西里含有很多糖分和一些碳水化合物。

So there's a lot of sugar and some carbs in some of the things.

这种饮食方式是有原因的，它有助于胃肠道手术后的恢复，也能帮助解决咀嚼和吞咽困难的问题。

There's a reason for a diet like this because it can help with recovery from gastrointestinal procedures, also the management of difficulties with chewing and swallowing.

如果你做过颌部手术之类导致咀嚼困难的情况，这种饮食可能对你有益，但长期会给消化系统带来压力，必须非常小心确保身体获得所需营养。

Maybe if you had some sort of jaw surgery, something like that where you had difficulty chewing, then a diet like this can be beneficial to you, but it puts stress on your digestive system over a period of time, and you really, really have to be careful to make sure that you're getting the nutritional needs, for your body.

所以这种饮食方式，有时可行有时不可行，但如果像张女士那样不当使用可能会很危险。

So a diet like this, yes, some sometimes yes, sometimes no, but it can be it can be dangerous when used ineffectively just like it did for Ms.

约翰。

John.

是的。

Yeah.

专家们都敦促人们在尝试这类饮食时要非常谨慎，因为它们可能导致严重问题，如营养缺乏、电解质失衡，并增加心脏、肝脏和肾脏的负担。

And experts are all urging people to be very cautious when you try diets like this because they can really lead to serious problems like nutrient deficiencies, electrolytes imbalances and add up strain on the heart, the liver and the kidneys.

这些都是引自

And that's all citing from Doctor.

北京协和医院临床营养科副主任医师刘鹏柱医生的观点。

Liu Peng Zhu who is the deputy chief physician in clinical nutrition at Peking Union Medical College Hospital.

刘医生还特别提到了张女士在办公室晕倒的这个案例。

And doctor Liu, he even specifically mentioned this case where miss Zhang kind of blackout at her office.

所以这种液体断食法要求人们主要摄入液体，就像你之前提到的，Steve，或者加工前是液体的食物，这意味着能量摄入极低，是一种极端的节食方式。

So this type of diet, the liquid fasting kind of require people to consume mainly liquids like you mentioned earlier, Steve, or foods that are liquid before processing, which means that the energy intake is extremely low which can be an extreme form of dieting.

长期坚持这种饮食方式确实会严重扰乱你的健康、日常行为以及整个身体机能。

And sticking to it for too long can really disrupt your your your health, your just general behave, and your whole person's functioning.

是的。

Yeah.

正如我们之前所说，如果使用不当，这些方法可能会很危险。

They they can be dangerous as we said before or without using them in the proper way.

正因如此，今年四月国家卫健委召开了一场新闻发布会，专家们公开反对了一些减肥潮流。

And that's why back in April, there was a press conference that was held by the National Health Commission, and it was there that experts publicly advised against some of these weight loss trends.

例如生酮饮食、液体断食、代餐减肥计划，都在那次会议中被提及，并指出它们伴随着重大健康风险。

For example, keto diets or the liquid fasting, meal replacement based weight loss plans, they were all mentioned on in that meeting suggesting that they come with significant health risks.

部分风险还在于，当我们在网上看到那些看起来像是这些饮食法终极成功案例的网红推荐时，他们似乎在暗示这些饮食法对所有人都完美适用，但事实并非如此。

And part of the risk too is that when we go online and we see these diet recommendations from influencers who look like they're the ultimate success story from these diets, they're kind of suggesting that all of these diets might be perfect for everyone, but that's not the case.

许多专家都讨论过这个问题，其中一个关键点是：尽管网上有很多流行且知名的减肥方法，但没有一种适合所有人。

A lot of experts have talked about this, and one of the key points is that even though there are plenty of trendy and Internet famous weight loss methods out there, none of them work for everyone.

可能对你有效的方法，对你的朋友未必适用。

It might one might work for you, but it might not work for your friend.

每个人的体质不同，这一点必须考虑进去。

Everybody's body is different, and that needs to be taken into account.

那让我们来看看这些疯狂的选择。

Then let's take a look at these crazy choices.

比如，我个人尝试过16+8轻断食法。

For example, I personally have tried the 16 plus eight plan.

哦，就是间歇性断食对吧？

Oh, that's the intermittent fasting, right?

是的。

Yes.

这种方法是只在8小时内进食，其余16小时保持空腹。

The idea is that you only eat within an eight hour window and fast for the remaining sixteen hours.

别忘了，我可不是那种人。

And remember, I am not someone.

我不是个习惯早起的人。

I'm not the morning person.

所以我的进食时间有时会从中午12点开始，持续到晚上8点左右。

That is why sometimes my eating period starts from 12:00 at noon till around 08:00 at night.

这种方式对我还算有效，但我怀疑我的饮食或作息是否真的健康。

It worked somehow for me, but I doubt my diet or my eating routine was that healthy.

你知道吗，当我们第一次在会议上提到16+8轻断食时，我第一反应是：哦，听起来很健康。

You know, when I first heard about 16 plus eight, as we mentioned it for the first time on the meeting, I was like, oh, that sounds healthy.

你进食十六小时然后睡觉

You eat for sixteen hours and sleep

八小时。

for eight.

你懂我。

You have your back.

太棒了。

Awesome.

我就是这么做的。

That's how I do it.

没错。

Yeah.

现在我明白是反过来的。

Now I understand it's the other way around.

确实如此。

It is.

而且根据包括BBC在内的多家媒体报道的研究，一些研究人员分析了1900多名成年人的数据，发现每天进食时间少于8小时的人，死于心血管疾病的风险实际上要高得多。

And that in researches that's reported by various medias, BBC included, some researchers looking at data from more than 1,900 adults found that people who ate within less than eight hours a day actually had a much higher risk of dying from cardiovascular disease.

与那些将进食时间分散在12至14小时的人相比，风险高出多达135%。

That's up to one hundred and thirty five percent higher compared with those who, spread their meals over twelve to fourteen hours.

这实际上就是16小时进食加8小时睡眠。

That's really eating eating for sixteen hours plus eight eight hours of sleep.

那么这真的有用吗？

So is it really that helpful?

确实可能有益，但仍会增加身体承受更多压力的风险，尤其对心脏和整体心血管健康而言。

It can be, but still it rises up the risks for our body to take up more pressure, especially for the heart and cardiovascular health in general.

这取决于个人情况。

It's up for everyone.

专家会指出，对于孕妇或哺乳期女性、儿童青少年、老年人，或任何有潜在健康问题的人群，间歇性断食法可能并不适合，但也可能适合你。

Experts will say for pregnant or breastfeeding women, for children and teenagers, older adults, or anyone with any kind of underlying health issues, then the intermittent fasting method might not be for you, but it can be for you.

我有个朋友，当时是个年轻小伙，大概34、35岁，有严重的髋关节问题，困扰了他多年，他尝试过各种方法治疗。

I had a friend, he was a young guy at the time, he was about maybe 34, 35 years old, and he had a serious hip issue, and it had bothered him for years, and he had tried so many different methods to try to take care of this.

出于某种原因，他认为间歇性断食有效——因为他对此做了大量研究——结果真的对他见效了。

And for some reason, he thought intermittent fasting, because he had done a tremendous amount of research on this, and it worked for him.

他简直不敢相信。

He couldn't believe it.

所以对他而言这个方法有效，但他非常负责任地以正确方式执行。

So for him, it worked, but he was really responsible about doing it the right way.

我想我们今天讨论的所有话题都可以用这个观点来看待。

And I think we could say this about all the things we're gonna talk about today.

如果方法得当，这对你也可能有效。

If you do it the right way, it can work for you.

间歇性断食的一个风险在于，你只有八小时的进食窗口。

One of the dangers of intermittent fasting, you have that eight eight hour window to eat.

很多人会像你一样选择中午到晚上八点，永林。

A lot of people will do it noon to eight like you did, Yong Lin.

但如果你只吃冰淇淋和披萨呢？

But what if you only eat ice cream and pizza?

因为你可能会犯这种常见错误。

Because you're thinking because it's an easy mistake to make.

对吧？

Right?

因为你会想，哦，好吧。

Because you're thinking, oh, okay.

这是我的进食时段。

This is my window.

你那真是开心的一天。

You That was one happy day.

你暴饮暴食。

You gorge.

对吧？

Right?

你大吃特吃不健康的食物，这对你一点好处都没有。

You gorge on really unhealthy foods, and that is not going to be good for you at all.

好的。

Okay.

接下来。

Next up.

那限制碳水化合物呢？

What about carb restriction?

这对你有好处吗？

Is it good for you?

因为我曾尝试过一段时间，不得不承认放弃的原因是几年前怀孕时，医生告诉我这样做会导致体内缺乏碳水化合物，身体会误以为你处于某种饥荒状态。

Because I tried it a little bit and have to admit the reason I gave it up was because during my pregnancy several years ago, I was told by the doctors that when you do this, your body because the lack of carb in your blood and in your body, your body would assume that you are under a certain kind of famine.

对。

Right.

而且这不是适合分娩的状态。

And it's not the right stage to give birth.

这会伤害宝宝。

It will hurt the baby.

你为什么都尝试过这些方法？

Why have you tried all of those?

我在做实验。

I Experiment.

是的。

Yes.

就像你说的，顾名思义就是减少所有主食、根茎类蔬菜、水果以及任何含碳水化合物的食物。

Like you said, it's Judging by the name, it's just cutting down on all staple food, root vegetables, fruits, and anything with carbohydrates.

但如果长期坚持这种饮食方式，可能会对身体造成反效果，因为长期摄入极少的碳水化合物会导致血糖过低，引发头晕、心悸和营养不良等问题。

But if you practice it on a long term, that can really backfire on your body cause eating very few carbs for a long time can make your blood sugar drop too low causing dizziness, a racing heartbeat, and poor nutrition, etcetera.

如果持续将碳水化合物摄入量维持在极低水平（约占日常能量需求的88%）约三个月，你的血糖波动可能会比预期更剧烈，胰岛素反应也会变得迟钝，这是我们不愿看到的情况。

And if you keep carbs extremely low, that's about 88% of your daily energy for around three months, your blood sugar may swing more sharply than you'd like it to be and your insulin level become less responsive, which is something we don't want.

我们希望胰岛素能保持尽可能精准的状态，以便在血糖变化时能立即做出反应。

We want our insulin to stay as, you know, accurate as it can to, you know, get response immediately when there's a blood sugar change.

但如果长期完全戒断碳水化合物，最终会损害你的健康。

But if you do it on a long term, cutting on all the carbs, that's gonna backfire your own health.

所以我很高兴你的医生在适当时机让你停止了这种饮食方式。

So I'm glad your doctor called a stop for you at the right time.

实际上，碳水化合物限制法只是限制摄入的碳水总量。

And actually, the carb restriction one is only restricting the amount of carb you take in.

但如果完全零碳水，那就是另一种饮食方式了。

But if you go entirely to no carb, it's a different type of diet.

嗯。

Mhmm.

而且这种饮食方式并不健康。

And it's not a good one.

你的身体需要这些营养。

Your body needs those things.

没错。

Right.

对吧？

Right?

所以我们才说要谨慎行事。

Which is why we say be careful.

关键是你要保持健康。

The key have you okay.

你之前尝试过生酮饮食吗？

Have you tried the keto diet before?

没有。

No.

我做不到。

I cannot.

有太多我想吃的东西了。

There are just too many things that I wanna eat.

是啊。

Yeah.

这个曾经很流行。

This this was popular.

我有不少朋友当时特别热衷这个。

I had plenty of friends who were really into this.

这大概十年前是个大趋势。

This was a big trend about maybe ten years or so ago.

不确定现在是否还像当年那么火，但在西方确实曾风靡一时。

I'm not sure if it's still as hot as it used to be, but in the West anyway, yeah, this this was all the rage.

生酮饮食源自那些大标题，比如'挑战七天不吃碳水，只吃肉'，穴居人式的饮食方式。

The keto diet came from those big headlines like challenge, seven days without carbs, only eat meat, the caveman style of eating cave person.

打扰一下。

Excuse me.

对许多人来说，这起初可能只是一种好奇，或者因为朋友在尝试，所以也跟着试试。

And it kind of starts out as a curiosity for many people or perhaps, you know, your friend is doing it, so you'll try it out too.

但很多人会接触生酮饮食，却并不真正了解它包含什么内容。

But a lot of people will get involved with keto without even really knowing what it involves.

这种饮食方式本身推崇一种高脂肪模式，脂肪应占你每日卡路里的70%到80%，碳水化合物极低，每天少于50克，蛋白质摄入则保持适中。

So the diet itself promotes a pattern that's very high in fat that should account for about 70 to 80% of your calories and very low in carbs, under 50 grams a day, and kind of moderate in terms of your protein intake.

它的原理是通过模拟饥饿状态，迫使身体燃烧脂肪来获取能量。

And it works by simulating starvation to force the body to burn fat for energy.

这些只是互联网和市场上常见、流行且具有代表性的饮食方式的例子。

So these are only the examples that are common, popular, iconic diet that are out there on the Internet, in the market.

我们并不是说这些饮食方式如果只尝试几周或在医生指导下进行，就一定会对你非常有害。

And we're not saying these are definitely going to be super bad for you even if you only try it for several weeks or under the direction of doctors.

我们想表达的是，它们可能并不都适合你。

We are saying that they might not all be good for you.

是的。

Yeah.

再次强调，能够在医生指导下进行、了解自己的身体、理解健康饮食的原则、明白不同食物对身体的作用以及各种营养素在饮食中的用途，这些都非常重要。因此我准备了一个小测验，看看我们是否能对不同类型的饮食有更多了解。

And being able to, again, go under a doctor's advices or understand your body or understand the principles of what is a healthy diet, what are different things do in your body, and what are different nutrients are for in your diet is also important, which is why I provided or I prepared a little bit of a quiz here to see whether or not we can learn a bit more about going on different type of diet.

那么让我们试试看。

So let's try this.

第一题，你们两个。

Question number one, both of you.

所有卡路里都是相等的。

All calories are equal.

是或否？

Yes or no?

不是。

No.

史蒂夫。

Steve.

史蒂夫。

Steve.

史蒂夫。

Steve.

史蒂夫得一分。

One point for Steve.

好的。

Okay.

为什么？

Why?

嗯，有些热量是好的，有些是坏的。

Well, some are good and some are bad.

你仍然可以从不健康的碳水化合物和糖类中获取热量，它们仍然是热量，但不是好的热量。

Can still get calories from unhealthy carbs and sugars and stuff, but they're still calories, but they're not good calories.

没错。

Yes.

他们做了一个实验，把两个人放在一起。

And they've done an experiment in putting two persons.

我想他们是一对双胞胎，被分别关在两个房间里一个月。

I think they're twins into two separate rooms for a month, I guess.

顺便说一句，这个团队是自愿参与的。

And the team well, they volunteered, by the way.

团队给他们提供了相同热量的食物组合，但有些非常健康，比如蔬菜和其他种类的食物。

The team gave them the same the the food group that contains the same amount of calories, yet some are perfectly healthy like vegetable and other type of well, different types of food.

而另一组则是炸鸡、冰淇淋和高碳水化合物食品。

And the other one would be fried chicken, ice cream, and back carb.

尽管热量相同，但他们的体型最终却不一样。

And even though the calories are equal, they ended up being in different shape.

当然了。

Of course.

是的。

Yes.

你看过那部关于有人连续一个月只吃金拱门食品的纪录片吗？

So You ever see that documentary about the guy who only ate the golden arches food for one month?

嗯。

Yeah.

我听说过

I've heard

这事。

of it.

结果确实不太理想。

That didn't really go that well.

好的。

Alright.

第二个问题。

Question number two.

健康食品总是低热量的。

Healthy food is always low calorie.

史蒂夫。

Steve.

不对。

No.

哦，别这样。

Oh, come on.

这个你肯定知道。

You know this one.

我还以为我回答会惹麻烦呢。

I thought I was getting in trouble for answering.

不对。

No.

这才是正确答案。

That is the correct answer.

嗯哼。

Mhmm.

是的。

Yeah.

这是因为，比如坚果、牛油果和橄榄油，它们对你非常有益。

And it's because, for instance, nuts, avocados, and olive oil, they are great for you.

而且它们热量高，健康并不意味着低热量，也不意味着你可以无限制地吃。

And also, they're calorie dense and healthy doesn't mean they are low calorie, and, also, it doesn't mean you should eat unlimitedly.

确实如此。

So Yeah.

但作为一个从小就很瘦的孩子，我一直都是那个瘦弱的孩子。

But as a kid who grew up really skinny, I was always the skinny kid.

所以我处于另一个极端，因为我总是试图增重。

So I was on the opposite end of the spectrum because I was always trying to gain weight.

是的，我很熟悉这些既健康又高热量的食物。

So, yeah, I'm familiar with these foods that are healthy, yet also really high in calories.

所以如果你想增肌或增加一些体重，这类食物，比如坚果和牛油果，对你非常有益。

So if you're trying to put on muscle or put on some extra pounds, those types of foods, like nuts and avocados, for example, can be really beneficial to you.

好的。

Alright.

明白。

Okay.

第三个问题。

Question number three.

减肥仅仅取决于饮食和运动。

Weight loss is solely about diet and exercise.

不对。

Nope.

好的。

Okay.

请继续。

Go ahead.

最后说道。

Said finally.

请继续。

Go ahead.

解释一下。

Explain.

因为要实现长期减重并保持效果，你需要进行全面的生活方式调整。

Because it's gonna be a holistic lifestyle kind of change that you need to practice in order to get weight loss and maintain it in the long term.

其他因素包括睡眠质量、基础代谢控制、运动等，这些综合起来形成良好习惯，最终体现在身体上的减重效果。

So other elements including sleep, your general met metabolism control, like, and exercising, and all that combined together forge a good habit which can be concluded or appear to be a weight loss on your body.

确实如此。

Definitely.

遗传因素、睡眠质量、长期压力水平和激素平衡等对体重管理也起着重要作用。

Factors like genetics, sleep quality, chronic stress levels, and hormone balances also play significant roles in weight management.

所以不要一味责怪自己。

So don't blame on yourself solely.

这与你携带的基因也有关系。

It has something to do with the genes that you hold.

所以每个人的体重都有一个舒适区，也不要对自己太苛刻。

So everybody has a comfort zone when it comes to your weight, and do not push yourself too hard as well.

最后一个问题，我觉得也很有意思。

And last question here, I think it can also be quite interesting.

那就是出汗等于脂肪燃烧。

That is sweating equals to fat burning.

燃烧。

Burning.

不对。

Nope.

哦，很好

Oh, good

对你来说。

for you.

我回答不确定，但我觉得应该是不对，因为出汗过多也可能适得其反。

I answered unsure, but I I think it's a nope because too much sweating can backfire too.

出汗并不总是等同于减肥。

It doesn't always equals weight loss.

看，这个解释不太准确，因为出汗只是身体在自我降温。

See, that is a not so very correct explanation because sweat is just your body cooling itself.

你流失的是水分，不是脂肪。

You're losing water, not fat.

嗯。

Mhmm.

这就是为什么一旦你补充水分，体重就会恢复。

And that is why you you gain the weight back once you rehydrate.

但运动绝对是件好事，出点汗也能让你精神焕发。

But exercising is definitely a good thing, and sweating a little bit would make you freshen up as well.

嗯。

Mhmm.

至于运动方式，取决于你在做什么运动、坚持了多久——我是说单次运动的时长。

And the exercising actions, depending on what kind of exercise you're doing, how long have you been doing it, and I mean, one session.

一次训练要多久？

How long is one session?

你坚持锻炼多久了？

And how long have you been continue to do it?

一个月、一年，还是像史蒂夫那样永远保持健身？他一直很健康。

For a month, for a year, forever, like Steve, who's always very fit.

这些因素会造成很大差异。

These would make a huge difference.

哦，肚子还在那儿呢。

Oh, the belly's there.

相信我。

Trust me.

它一直都在那儿。

It's been there forever.

祝愿我们都能拥有健康饮食和健康生活方式。

And wish all of us have a healthy diet and healthy lifestyle.

今天的圆桌会议就到这里结束了。

And that brings us to the end of today's roundtable.

下次再见，愿交流不断，创意不息。

Until next time, keep the conversations going and the ideas flowing.

我是叶浩林，与Steve和Yishan一起。

I'm Yeoho Lin with Steve and Yishan.

感谢大家的收听。

Thank you for listening.

再见。

Bye bye.