中国普及儿童照护之路

讨论让世界持续运转。

Discussion keeps the world turning.

这是圆桌论坛。

This is Roundtable.

你好。

Hello.

欢迎来到圆桌论坛。

Welcome to Roundtable.

我是牛红林。

I'm Niu Hong Lin.

随着托育服务法草案的发布，中国正式进入人口政策的新时代。

China has officially entered a new era of demographic policy with the release of the draft child care services law.

目前三岁以下儿童的入托率约为百分之八，中央政府正推动将托育视为基本公共服务，而非私人奢侈品。

With enrollment rates for children under three currently hovering around eight percent, the central government is moving to treat child care not as a private luxury but as a basic public service.

该草案引入了强制性的国家资格认证体系和背景审查，标志着该行业正从长期由缺乏监管且费用高昂的私人机构主导转向专业化发展。

This draft introduces a mandatory national qualification system and background checks, signaling a move to professionalize a sector long dominated by less regulated, rather expensive private providers.

今天，我们分析这份蓝图中的硬性规定及其对国家第十五个五年计划的意义。

Today, we analyze the hard rules of the blueprint and what it means for the country's fifteenth five year plan.

在本期节目中，我邀请了费菲和史蒂夫·哈瑟利。

For this episode, I'm joined by Fei Fei and Steve Hatherley.

说实话。

Let's be honest.

抚养一个三岁以下的孩子是一项全职工作，通常换来的只有疲惫和黏糊糊的手印。

Raising a human under the age of three is a full time job that usually pays in exhaustion and sticky handprints.

在这里，每三个中国家庭中就有一个希望获得专业托育服务，但实际只有8%的家庭能够享受到。

Here in the country, one in three Chinese families want professional childcare, yet only 8% actually have it.

为什么存在如此巨大的差距？

Why is there such a massive gap?

这项新草案能否最终让送孩子入托变得安全、负担得起，甚至对社会中的老年家庭也具有包容性？

And can this new draft law finally make dropping the kids off safe, affordable, and even inclusive for the older families in the society.

那么，我们先来看看这项新规定。

So let's first take a look at the new regulation here.

新政策是什么？

What are the new policies?

在这项草案法律中，

And in this draft law, what

有哪些条款引起了人们的关注？

are some clauses that are getting people's attention?

到2025年，中国公布了一项名为《托育服务法》的国家草案，旨在扩大政府在全国范围内的托育支持。

So by the 2025, China unveiled a draft national law called the child care services law, which aims to expand a nationwide child care support from the government.

该法律草案仍在立法机构审议中，但我们仍能窥见未来托育体系的某些面貌。

The law the draft is still being under review by the legislator, but we'll still, we can get some of the glimpse into what the future child care system would look like.

基本上，该草案旨在促进和规范托育行业，特别是针对三岁以下儿童。

So, basically, the draft law aims to promote and regulate the sector of child care, especially for children under the age of three.

而目前，公共幼儿园系统尚未覆盖这一群体。

That's when I think most currently, the current the public kindergarten system hasn't covered this group of the society.

他们还旨在降低育儿成本，减轻家庭负担，并推动建设更有利于家庭的社会。

And they are also aiming to lower the cost of raising their children and ease the burden in households and support even more family friendly society building.

嗯。

Yeah.

这涵盖了从托育机构到人员、服务提供、支持措施、监管，一直到法律责任的所有方面。

This covers everything from childcare institutions to personnel to service provision to support measures to oversight all the way to legal responsibilities.

它是在2019年草案的基础上扩展的，2019年的国家规定延长了产假，并鼓励发展针对三岁以下儿童的托育服务。

And it expands on a draft from 2019, a a 2019 national regulation that expanded parental leave and also encouraged the development of care services for children again under the age of three.

不过，这一版更加全面，还明确了地方政府的实施责任。

This one, though, this one's more expansive, and it also assigns responsibility for implementation to local governments.

目前它仍处于草案阶段，正在公开征求公众意见。

And it is in the draft stage now, so it's open for public comment.

哦，时机正好，如果你有任何建议的话。

Oh, good timing, if you have any suggestions.

嗯。

Yeah.

没错。

Exactly.

我相信人们对这个有很多看法。

And I'm sure people have a lot of opinions on this.

所以从一月，抱歉。

So from Jan sorry.

从去年12月27日到今年1月25日，这个时间点即将到来，这是家长和专业人士提出意见的关键时期，因为法律即将定稿。

From December 27 to the twenty fifth, which is coming up very soon on the calendar of this year in January, this is the really critical time for parents and professionals to offer those opinions that they undoubtedly have, before the, law becomes finalized.

如果你现在正在听，并且对此感兴趣，表达意见的方式其实非常简单。

And the way to voice your opinion, if you're listening to this right now and you're interested, it's really, really simple.

你只需要登录全国人民代表大会网站。

All you have to do is log on to the National People's Congress website.

网址是 npc.gov.cn。

It is npc.gov.cn.

你也可以使用国家法律法规数据库，在线提交你的意见。

You can also use the National Laws and Regulations database, and you can submit your thoughts online there.

我喜欢当我们提供非常详细的服务时，那种人们在涉及国家治理时可能需要的信息。

I love it when we provide very detailed services, the kind of information that people might need when it comes to the governing of the country.

是的，你可以提交你的意见。

And And, yeah, you can submit your comment Yes.

或者你的看法，是的。

Or your sense Yes.

参与到托育体系建设中来。

Into childcare system building.

ccroundtablepodcast.qqq.com。

Ccroundtablepodcast.qqq.com.

对于那些了解中国的人，你们可能知道它是一个幅员辽阔的国家。

And for those of you who have an idea about China, you might already know it's a vast country.

它拥有庞大的人口。

It has a large population.

但我们仍面临与世界上许多国家相似的问题。

Yet, we face similar problems like many countries in the world.

也就是说，从新生儿数量来看，我们国家的新生儿数量正在减少。

That is not enough in the sense that many when it comes to newborn in the country, we see a decreasing number of newborns.

2020年，新生儿数量约为一千二百万，到2021年降至约一千万。

In 2020, the number of newborns is around twelve million, and then we see in 2021, it's around ten million.

2022年则为九百五十万。

And then 2022, nine point five million.

今年，也就是去年2025年，数据尚未公布，但估计约为八百七十万，这意味着新生儿数量持续下降。

And this year, 2020 well, last year, 2025, is not announced just yet, but it's estimated to be around eight point seven million, which means we're seeing a decreasing number of newborn.

人们推迟进入人生新阶段的原因当然有很多。

And there are definitely many reasons people wanted to delay their delay getting into a new stage of their life.

他们想多享受一下生活。

They wanna enjoy life a bit more.

他们觉得自己还没准备好，但社会确实有责任营造一个更有利于抚育幼儿的环境。

They feel like they're not ready, But it is definitely the society's responsibility to create a kind of environment that is more conducive for those who are raising a young kid.

我认为，这份关于托育的新草案显然与……密切相关。

I I think it's quite clear that that these new this new draft related to childcare is very closely

与之紧密相连。

connected to Yes.

希望人们多生孩子。

Wanting people to have some more babies.

当然。

Of course.

因此，我们之前提到过，2019年出台了一项指导性政策或意见，帮助包括地方政府和私营部门在内的各个领域明确国家在婴幼儿照护方面希望我们前进的方向。

And that is why we already mentioned that in 2019, there has been a guideline kind of regulation, a kind of opinion helping different sectors, including local governments and private sector to know what are the directions the country want us to move towards when it comes to young child young child's young children's care.

嗯。

Mhmm.

但当时，我记忆犹新，我们讨论的是鼓励更多私营机构为特别是三岁以下的儿童提供托育服务。

But at that time, I remember quite vividly, at that time, we were talking about encouraging more private institutions to provide the kind of child care for especially those who are under the age of three.

但现在，我们注意到一个重点是，政策重心正从鼓励市场探索，转向让地方政府承担更多责任。

But now we see one highlight here is that we're moving from the having or encouraging the market to explore to allowing local government to take more responsibilities.

不仅仅是允许地方政府。

Not just allowing local governments.

根据这项新计划，它们将不再只是旁观者。

With this new plan, they wouldn't just be observers.

他们将被法律要求将托育服务纳入其经济社会发展规划。

They would be legally mandated to include childcare in their socioeconomic development plans.

这要求或将会要求他们分配专项资金和土地——这是一个有趣的旁注，即为托育设施预留土地，以确保这些服务被融入新建住宅区的整体规划中。

This requires or would require them to allocate specific funds and also land, which is an interesting kind of, side note to this, for child, care facilities, and that would be to ensure that these services are built into the very fabric of new residential neighborhoods.

是的。

Yeah.

因为，史蒂夫，你提到了一个关于地方政府责任中土地分配的非常有趣的观点。

Because, Steve, you mentioned a very interesting point about the land allocation when it comes to local government's responsibilities.

因为当我们谈到托育设施时，我认为最首要的问题就是这些设施将建在哪里。

Because when we speaking of childcare facilities, I think the top one question would be where that facility is gonna be.

是的。

Yeah.

建起来。

Build them.

在哪里？

Where?

是的。

Yeah.

好问题。

Good question.

例如，如果一家公司想租地方，租金有时会很高，尤其是在北京、上海和深圳这样的城市，房价正在飙升。

And for example, if, for example, a company want to rent a place, the rent would be sometimes expensive, especially considering cities like Beijing and Shanghai and Shenzhen where the the price is just skyrocketing.

嗯，你得假设这些地方的租金会非常昂贵，因为你得想到，这些场所不会位于城市某个难以到达的建筑隐蔽楼层，它们必须建在社区里，而在北京以及其他大城市，租金也会很高。

Well, you'd have to assume it would be very expensive because you'd have to think that these places wouldn't be on, you know, some hidden floor of some building somewhere in in some place in the city that's hard to get to, they would have to be in neighborhoods, and yeah, in Beijing where it would be expensive in other big cities too.

你可能要考虑二层、三层，甚至一层的位置，这些地方的租金会比我说的那些隐蔽场所贵得多。

Maybe you're looking at 2nd Floor locations, 3rd Floor, maybe even 1st Floor locations, and that's going to be more expensive than, you know, the hidden places I was

我刚才提到的那些地方。

talking about.

此外，安全是另一个问题，而且作为父母，我们自己就是父母。

And also, safety is another concern that and also, when it comes to parents, we're we're parents.

我们希望我们的孩子，尤其是三岁以下的孩子，有足够的空间走动、活动，获得足够的阳光，接触新鲜空气。

We want our children, especially under the age of three, have the space to walk around, to move around, get enough sunlight, you know, get exposed to the fresh air.

这意味着，将托育设施设在办公楼的三楼可能并不是理想的选择。

And that means probably renting like a 3rd Floor inside an office building would not be an ideal place for these childcare facilities.

但谁来为孩子们寻找一个完美的场所呢？

But who's gonna be there to find a perfect place for children?

我的意思是，政府显然需要投入一半的精力和资源，走进社区，寻找这些设施究竟可以设在哪里。

I mean, governments would definitely need half the capacity and resources to step in and, know, look around their communities and to see where exactly can these places be found.

我认为另一个非常有趣的问题是，为设施工作人员建立一套资格认证体系。

And I think another very interesting issue, like a qualification system for people working inside this facility.

是的。

Yeah.

说到谁来负责这件事。

Speaking of who's gonna be there.

没错。

Yeah.

正是如此。

Exactly.

我认为，当涉及到将三岁以下的孩子送托时，其中一些孩子还无法在人类社会中独立生活。

And I think when it comes to these sending your children under the age of three, some of them are still not being able to be function independently in our human society.

当父母想到每天有八个小时有人在照顾孩子时，他们会非常焦虑。

Parents get very anxious when it comes to who are gonna be there around my kid eight hours a day taking care of them.

这个问题我们已经提供了很长时间的答案。

And that is the question that we have been already providing answers for quite a long time.

我们确实有一个叫做育婴员职业资格证书的体系。

We do have a system called a nursery caregiver vocational certificate.

如今，全国各地不同城市的私营部门和机构中，那些在这些场所工作的人中，有些人是专业的托育人员或看护者，他们拥有这个证书。

And nowadays, the private sectors and private institutions around the country in different cities, those who are working in these places, some of them are professional childcare or caregivers, and those people, they would have this certificate.

但比如在我孩子的幼儿园里，也有我们称之为生活老师的人。

But also, for example, in my kid's kindergarten, there's also those we call them teachers for your living or life teachers.

是的。

Yes.

这些人更偏向于看护者而非教育者。

And those people are caregivers more than educators.

这些不仅适用于三岁以下的儿童，也适用于幼儿园阶段，即三到六或七岁的孩子。

And those are not only for the kids under the age of three, but also in the kindergarten stage, which is between three to six or seven.

所以情况就是这样。

So there's that.

但以前，这个证书是用来测试或判断一个人所掌握的技能是否足以照顾幼儿。

But previously, that certificate was to test or to find out whether or not the skills this person acquire there, is enough to take care of a young kid.

是的。

Yeah.

因此，它更像是一种基于培训的资格认证，而不是执业执照或从业许可。

So it functions more like a training based credential rather than a practice license or a license to practice.

目前的职业资格证书主要是为家庭托育设计的，更适合一对一的家庭照护场景。

So the current vocational certificate is designed perhaps for home or better for home based care, where caregivers serve maybe one family at a time.

但新的资格体系则面向儿童中心、托育中心、托班或幼儿园等集体环境，目标是解决标准不统一的问题。

But the new qualification system is geared toward group environments like children's centers, child care centers, nursery classes, or kindergartens, and the goal here is to address the lack of unified standards.

因此，草案提出建立全国统一的儿童照护人员资格考试和注册制度。

So the draft law, it proposes this national qualification exam and registration system for child caregivers.

再详细说说这一点。

More details from that.

他们将把这个体系划分为三级称号：初级、中级和高级，这将赋予保育工作者专业身份，并提供类似中小学教师的职业晋升路径。

So the way they'll break that down, it's going to be a three tier title, junior, middle, and senior, and it will give childcare workers a professional status and also a promotion path similar to what school teachers have.

而且，这将取代当前的评估体系，建立全国统一的保育人员资格认证和注册制度。

And again, that replaces the current evaluation system with a national qualification system and a unified registration process for all childcare staff.

这样一来，保育工作将更可能成为年轻人向往的职业。

So that's making caregivers more likely more of a yearning job position that young people may be interested in.

因为当我们谈论当前的保育人员时，我们想到的是那些一辈子做保姆的人。

Because if you are now, when we are talking about current caregivers, we're thinking about nannies who's being good and be nanny for the rest of their life.

在这个职业路径中，根本没有上升的阶梯。

There is no like a ladder to climb inside this career path.

展望未来，你做了十年保姆之后呢？

When looking into the future, you know, you've been nanny for like ten years.

接下来该怎么做？

What What about the next step?

没有下一步了。

There is no next step.

只是在不同家庭之间辗转。

Just moving on from family to family.

但现在尤其是年轻人，我认为让年轻人担任保育员也非常重要。

But now for especially young people and I think having young people as caregivers is also very important.

而且他们是有发展路径的。

And they are There is a path for them.

你知道，你有成长空间。

You know, you have development.

你有未来。

There is a future for you.

你有下一步可以攀登。

You have a next step to climb onto.

我认为这尤其重要。

And I think this is especially important.

是的。

Yeah.

作为父母，让我感到欣慰的是，草案明确规定托儿中心必须进行犯罪背景调查。

What's making me as a parent quite happy reassured is the fact that the draft specifies that child care centers must conduct criminal background

我正要这么说。

I was just about to say.

是的，这非常重要，因为将建立一份黑名单，以排除任何有暴力、虐待或吸毒史的人。

Yeah, that's very important because there would be a blacklist to be built to exclude anyone with a history of violence, abuse or drug use.

这非常重要，因为我们现在知道很多犯罪记录。

That's very important because now we know many of the criminal records.

因为在中国，你要么违法，要么被视为罪犯。

Because in China here, you can either break the law or be considered as a criminal.

有不同的层级或不同类型的规定和法律可以违反。

There are different levels or different types of regulations and law to break.

无论是公司还是个人，都不允许偷偷查看他人的记录。

And as any company or any individual, it is not allowed to have a sneak peek into other people's records.

但对于那些正在工作或打算开办此类托儿中心的人来说，他们可以获取拟雇佣人员的背景信息，这非常令人安心。

But for those who are working or for those who are opening this kind of childcare centers, they would have the access to know the background information of the personnel they're about to hire, which is very much reassuring.

确实如此。

Absolutely.

你想知道是谁在照顾

You want to know who's taking care

你的。是的。

of your Yeah.

三岁

Three year

问一些关于他们的问题，他们却说：哦，别问了。

ask some questions about them and they say like, Oh, just don't ask.

或者，不希望得到这样的回答。

Or, don't want that as the answer.

没错。

No.

在这里，我们知道已经存在2019年版的意见或指南，可以作为参考，但现在我们正将其转化为一部专门的托育服务法。

And here we know that we already have this 2019 version of opinion or guidelines, something you can follow, but now we are making it into a specific specialized child care service law.

那么，为什么这是必要的呢？

And that's necessary because?

首先，因为在托育实践中，无论是数量还是质量方面，都存在现实差距。

Well, because first of all, there is a gap in reality in practice when it comes to child care, not only about numbers but also about quality.

因为根据2024年发布的一份官方报告，他们考察了2023年的数据，显示中国每千人仅有大约三个托育名额。

Because according to a an an official report released in 2024, they look at numbers in 2023, and China had about three childcare slots per 1,000 people.

全国总计略超过四百万个名额，但考虑到需求，这显然是不够的。

So totaling like a little over 4,000,000 slots nationwide and thinking about that's not gonna be enough.

同时，调查显示，超过30%的有三岁以下儿童的家庭需要托育服务。

And surveys also show that more than 30% of families with children under the age of three need child care services.

因此，这是一种非常紧缺的服务。

So it's this really hard sought after services.

但此外，我认为家长们在需要这些服务的同时，也对送孩子去托育机构存在不信任问题，主要是因为对这些机构所提供服务的质量感到担忧。

But also, I think for parents, they they're in need for their services, but they also have this mistrust, distrust issues when it comes to sending your kid into these childcare facilities simply because of the concerns when it comes to the quality that these services are providing.

是的。

Yeah.

我的意思是，有很多问题。

I mean, there's a number of issues.

显然，需求是存在的。

Obviously, the demand is there.

我们提到过，30%的家庭有这个需求，这个数据值得重复一下。

30% of families we mentioned these stats a couple of times, but they're worth repeating.

30%的家庭需要托育服务，但只有不到8%的家庭利用了这些服务，入学率很低。

30% of families have a need for the child care services under 8%, take advantage of those, the enrollment rate.

如果将这个数据与经合组织国家相比，其成员国的入学率为35%，而中国的入学率要低得多，这就是我们从全球视角进行的比较。

Now if you compare that to OECD countries where the member country's enrollment rate is 35%, and in China, it's much, much lower, so that's when we compare it to a global situation.

我们可以根据不同的角度或视角，找到与全球情况的对比。

And we can find comparisons to the global situation depending on which angle or which lens we look at this situation through.

我认为我们可以做的一项比较是成本。

And one of the comparisons that I think we can make is the cost.

全球范围内托育费用高昂，在中国也是如此。

It's expensive globally, and it's expensive here in China too.

2023年，私营机构占所有托育机构的近90%，几乎是全部。

In 2023, private providers made up nearly 90% of all child care institutions, so almost all of them.

嗯。

Mhmm.

它们向每个孩子每月收取的平均费用为1978元。

And they were charging an average of 1,978 yuan per child per month.

这约合每月280美元，占人均可支配收入的60%以上。

That's about $280 per month, That accounts for about 60%, over 60%, of the average disposable income per person.

我不是数学专家，但在我看来，这对许多家庭来说都负担不起。

Now, I'm not a math expert, but that says to me that it's unaffordable for a lot of families out there.

是的。

Yes.

我们的一项第三方调查显示，超过80%的家庭愿意接受每月500至2000元的费用范围。

And we have a third party survey revealing that over 80% of families are willing to accept a fee range between 500 to 2,000 yuan.

然而，仍有约20%的家庭表示无力承担这些费用，这是导致他们不使用托育服务的最主要原因之一。

And still, there are about 20% of families report being unable to afford those costs, making one of the largest reasons not for not using a child care services.

如果你仔细想想，其实有不同的选择，尤其是在中国这样的社会环境中。

And if you really think about it, there are different options, especially here in in China in the Chinese society.

作为父母，你可以选择休两到三年的育儿假，亲自照顾孩子。

That is you can, as a parent, decide to take two or three years as gap year and take care of the kid.

你可以寻求长辈的帮助，比如孩子的祖父母，也可以雇佣保姆。

You can seek help from the older generation, from the grandparents of the kid, and you you can hire a nanny.

每种选择都有其优缺点。

And there are definitely pros and cons for each choice.

我们在这里试图做的，是让送孩子去托育机构的好处清单更长一些，而缺点清单更短一些。

The what we're trying to do here is to make the pro list of sending kids to child care service a bit longer, and the con list a bit shorter.

要实现这一目标，其中一种方法就是降低费用。

And one thing to do that, or one way to achieve that goal is to lower the cost.

是的。

Yeah.

如果我们从纸面上看，我们谈到了纸面上的短缺。

If we look at on paper, we talked about the shortage on paper.

这里有服务可用，抱歉，但其中90%是私营的。

There are services available, pardon me, here, but 90% of them are privately owned.

所以，这表明我们国家确实存在短缺。

So, okay, that rec that that tells us that there's a shortage here in the country.

但现有的托育名额中只有46%被实际使用。

But there's only 46% of existing child care slots that are actually in use.

因此，纸面上看是短缺，但实际上这些名额并没有被填满。

So on paper, there's a shortage, but in actuality, the slots aren't being filled.

其中一个主要原因是，有20%的家庭负担不起。

And one of the big reasons is 20% of families, it's beyond their means.

这意味着，在所有希望孩子接受托育服务的家庭统计数据中，每五个孩子就有一个家庭根本负担不起。

That means for every five kids, for the statistics of the families that want their child to have childcare services provided for them, one of those kids, they just can't afford to do it.

有些孩子或家长觉得这些机构太贵了。

Some kids or some parents find the institutions a bit too expensive.

有些家长可能觉得提供儿童服务或照护的机构不够好，达不到他们的标准。

Some parents may find the institutions providing the kind of services or care for the kids not enough or not up to their standards.

尤其是考虑到高昂的价格时。

Especially when compared to the expensive price.

是的。

Yes.

是的。

Yes.

而且，我从来没有真正送我的孩子去任何一家中国托育机构。

And also, I've never really been to send my kid to any of the Chinese caregiver facilities.

但当我住在澳大利亚时，我确实送我的孩子去了一家日托中心。

But when I was living in Australia, I do send my kit to one of the daycare.

他们称之为日托中心，是为学龄前儿童服务的。

They call it daycare centers, which is for children, preschool age children.

而且这些中心也非常昂贵。

And they are also very expensive.

那是大约五到六年前的事了。

And my it was it was about five to six years ago.

我当时每天被收取130澳元。

I was it was charged 130 Australian dollars a day.

每天。

A day.

每天。

A day.

现在，我又查了一次价格。

And now, I checked the price again.

价格在上涨。

It's climbing.

现在每天大约是180澳元，约合120美元。

It's about 180 US Australian dollars a day, which is about 120 US.

这太

It's very

有补贴吗？

Any subsidies?

我认为政府承担了一部分费用。

Well, I think the government covers a part of it.

但如果你是双职工家庭，希望孩子每周五天都在托儿中心，

But if you are, for example, a working both parents work, you want your parent you want your kids in these day care centers five days a week.

但政府根据各州情况，只覆盖大约70%的费用。

But the government only covers well, depending on the state, covers about 70% of the expense.

大概是每周三天吗？

It's about three days a week?

是的。

Yeah.

两到三天每周。

Two to three days a week.

所以，如果你考虑自己每月要为托儿中心支付240美元，这仍然不够。

So it's still not enough if you're thinking about you are paying $24 of your pocket just for day care centers.

是的。

Yes.

很贵。

Expensive.

澳大利亚只是一个例子。

And Australia is only one example.

如果我们看看全球情况，在不同国家，由于社会条件的不同，抚养孩子的方式也各不相同。

If we take a look at the global situation, in different countries, there are different ways and different common ways to raise a kid in just one society because of the condition of a society.

我们看到在一些国家，许多父母会选择让一个人居家照顾孩子

We see in some countries many parents choose to have one person living and taking care of as the family

照顾者。

caregiver.

是的，比如全职在家的父母。

Yeah, like a stay at home parent.

全职在家，这在一些国家非常普遍，尤其是在那些为选择居家照顾孩子的父母提供相当大补贴的国家。

Stay at home That's very common in some countries, especially in the kind of countries that provide a relatively major subsidy for the parent who decided to stay at home.

在其他国家，我们还看到他们也采用了日托服务。

And also in some other countries, we see that they also adopt a day care kind of service.

是的。

Yeah.

我研究了加拿大，因为我很好奇这个国家在儿童保育方面做了什么。

I I looked at Canada because I was curious to know what what the country did in terms of child care.

因此，加拿大有一个由联邦资金支持的国家计划，旨在限制有执照的日托费用，目标是平均每天10美元。

So there's a there's a Canada national plan with federal funding to cap licensed daycare fees, and what the aim was for an average of $10 a day.

你提到五年前澳大利亚每天是130美元，现在如果未获补贴，已涨到每天180美元，但加拿大的目标是到2026年将费用控制在每天10美元。

You said it was a $130 a day in Australia five years ago, up to a $180 a day now if you're if if it's uncovered, but the goal in Canada was $10 a day by 2026.

这个项目几年前就开始了，但具体实施因省份而异。

The program started a a few years ago, but it depends on the province.

对吧？

Right?

加拿大有各省，不同省份的日托费用也各不相同。

Canada has has provinces, and you'll find different prices in different provinces.

例如，我认为安大略省每天是22美元。

For example, I believe it was $22 a day in Ontario.

安大略省是渥太华和多伦多所在的地方。

Ontario is where Ottawa and Toronto are.

加拿大13个省和地区中，有五个已经提前实现了每天10美元的托育目标，但其他地区则降低了费用并采取了相应措施。

And and five of Canada's 13 provinces and territories have have reached that $10 a a day childcare goal ahead of schedule, but others have reduced their fees and and tried to take measures.

但对加拿大来说，要实现这一目标仍然是一个挑战。

But it's still it's still a challenge for the country to to try to achieve that goal.

目标是让托育服务变得可负担，但我不确定他们是否已经完全做到了。

The the the goal is to make it affordable, but I don't know if they've fully gotten there just yet.

和世界上所有或许多国家一样，我们看到了这类挑战，并找到了不同的解决方法。

And like all or many countries in the world, we see these kind of challenges, and we find different ways to solve them.

甚至在这项草案法律出台之前，我们就看到不同地方政府采用了不同的方式。

And even before this draft law, we see different local governments are adopting different method.

例如，在北京，我们讨论过其可负担性。

For example, here in Beijing, we we talked about the affordability of it.

但实际上，市级和区级政府已经联合为每个孩子每月提供1000元的补贴，并为普惠性托育中心提供每天每平方米最高5元的租金补贴。

But in fact, the municipal and district governments have already jointly provided subsidies for 1,000 yuan per child per month, along with rent subsidies of up to 5 yuan per square meter per day for those inclusive child care centers.

这正是北京正在发生的情况。

That's what's happening here in Beijing.

此外，自2023年以来，上海一直在发展、开设和建立各种托育中心，特别是针对社区内三岁以下的儿童。

And also in Shanghai, since 2023, Shanghai has been developing, opening new and establishing all these kind of childcare centers, especially for the kids under the age of three in different communities.

他们甚至还在一个我认为是工业园区的区域进行了尝试，那里有许多公司。

And they've even tried a place in I think it's industrial park area where there are a lot of companies.

因此，他们的孩子或家长可以带孩子上班，并将孩子送到这些中心。

So their kids or the parents would be able to take the kids to work and drop them in the centers.

这是一种很好的做法。

That's a good way to do it.

此外，杭州的做法也非常有趣。

And also in Hangzhou, what they're doing is also very interesting.

他们启动了十五分钟托育服务圈，将家庭、社区、工作场所乃至医疗服务整合进这些托育中心，使孩子不再需要前往当地的社区卫生服务中心。

They started a fifteen minute child care service circle, which would integrate not only families, communities, and workplaces, but also medical services into these kind of child care centers so that the kid would no longer need to go to the local community health centers.

所以这是另一种做法。

So that is another way of doing it.

但我们可以看到，首先，这项新草案已经通过，收到了很多建议，做了一些调整后就通过了。

But we can see, one, this new draft law is passed, receiving a lot of suggestions, do a bit of adjustment and pass.

这对父母、机构和专业人士来说，这个领域可能会发生很多新变化。

A lot of new changes might happen in this sector for parents, for institutions, for professionals.

是的。

Yeah.

谈到立法，我们谈的是法律。

When it comes to a law building, we are talking about law.

洪林刚才描述的大多是地方政策，如果地方政府有意愿、有资金，就可以实施。

What Hong Lin just described are mostly, you know, local policies if the local governments have the have the will, have the funds to do that.

但现在有了这项托育服务法，我认为国家正在将三岁以下的托育服务纳入国家规划。

But now with these child care services law, I think we are putting the country is putting childcare under three childcare services into a national plan.

这意味着这些服务可能会在更多地区推广，尤其是农村地区，我认为这些地区更需要这些服务，相比北京和杭州的家长，他们可选择的余地更少。

That means sometimes you can see them rolling out in more areas, especially considering rural areas, which I think are more in need of these services services and don't have a lot of choices compared to parents in Beijing and Hangzhou

还有上海。

and Shanghai.

也许标准也不同。

Maybe different standards too.

是的。

Yeah.

确实，我认为很多家长还没有意识到零到三岁儿童教育的重要性，而这其实非常重要。

Exact and also, I think when it comes to these a lot of parents actually, they didn't realize the importance of education for children between the age of zero to three, which is still very important.

这不仅仅是喂饭、哄睡、换尿布那么简单。

It's not like you just feed them, put them into bed and put on diapers.

没那么简单。

It's not as simple as that.

这些孩子在神经系统、运动技能、感官发展和语言能力方面都有很多可以发展的方面。

There are also developmental things that these children can develop when it comes to their nervous system, their motor skills, their sensory development, and their language abilities.

我认为目前的保姆在这方面能提供的帮助非常有限。

And I don't think nannies currently can really help a lot with this development.

我认为，有了这项法律，不仅服务会更加便捷、更加实惠，还会被纳入体系之中，成为体系结构的一部分，让人们意识到，这也是我的孩子需要接受的学习内容。

And I think with this law in place, not only the services will be more accessible, will be more affordable, but will be more into the system, fabricated in inside the fabric of the system so that people know that is also something that my children need to have some learning that need to do.

是的。

Yeah.

我的意思是，我不认为任何父母会认为人类的发展只从三岁开始。

I mean, I don't think any parent out there thinks that a human only starts developing at the age

三岁。

of three.

但这确实是个棘手的话题，不是吗？

But it it's such a tricky topic, isn't it?

因为看待这个问题的方式太多了。

Because there's so many different ways to look at this.

首先，你得有能力负担得起。

First, you have to be able to afford it.

然后，一旦你负担得起，就会回到你之前提到的问题，好吧。

And then once you can afford it, then you look at what you brought up before, Okay.

我支付的费用，质量是否与价格相符？

What I'm paying for, does the quality match the price?

这些机构内部正在发生什么？

What's going on inside of these institutions?

这些机构在哪里？

Where are these institutions?

谁在这些机构工作？

Who who's working at these institutions?

我们已经讨论过这个问题了。

We talked about that already.

他们是持证人员吗？

Are they are they credited people?

他们有这个领域的背景吗？

Do they have a background in in this field?

当你在国家层面实施某项措施时，有许多不同的问题需要解决。

There's a lot of different things that need to be tackled when you're looking at implementing something on a national level.

现在，我不断回到成本问题上，但我认为这很重要。

Now, I I keep coming back to the cost, but I think this is important.

我们谈到了家庭的成本，但托育中心自身的成本呢？

We talked about the cost for the families, but what about the cost for the childcare centers themselves?

我觉得这个问题值得讨论。

This is worth talking about, I think.

因此，草案将鼓励地方政府——我们之前讨论过地方政府的作用。

So the draft law will encourage local government we we talked about the role of local governments here.

它们将鼓励由地方政府主导的指导、定价，并强制要求儿童中心按居民电价缴纳水电费用。

They'll encourage local government led guidance, prices, and and that will mandate that children's centers be charged residential rates for utilities.

我们说的是水、电、气，这将直接降低运营成本，从而降低家长的学费，使这些机构更加可负担。

We're talking about water and electricity and gas, and that will directly lower operating costs and consequently, tuition fees for parents, making the the institutions more affordable.

我以前没意识到这一点，但在节目前我和Fei Fei聊过这个话题。

Now, I didn't realize this before, but I was chatting with Fei Fei about this before the show.

在中国，当然其他国家也是如此，水电费用有不同的等级或类别，主要分为两类。

In China, and and this is true in other countries of of course as well, there are different tiers or categories for utility prices, and there there are two main categories here.

一种是居民电价。

One is residential rate.

所以，如果你以居民电价支付水电费，那么这些费用是经过补贴的，价格较低，适用于家庭使用。

So if you if you're paying paying a residential rate for your utilities, then they are subsidized, and they're lower rates that are charged to families for home use.

政府将这些费率保持在低位，作为一项基本公共服务。

The government keeps these rates low as kind of a basic public service.

另一种是商业或工业电价，这些费率显著更高，适用于企业、工厂、商店及其他营利性机构。

Then you've got your commercial or your industrial rates, and these are significantly higher rates that are charged to businesses and factories and shops and other, for profit entities.

如果你能将这些托育机构原本应被收取的工业电价，改为居民电价，这只是一个例子。

If you can take these childcare institutions that would have been charged or industrial rates for their utilities, and that's just one example.

让它们按居民电价收费。

Make them charge the the residential rates.

这为它们节省了资金的机会。

That's an opportunity for them to save money.

它们可以将这些节省下来的费用转嫁给家长。

They can pass those savings on to the parents.

而肯定会发生的一件事是，目前照顾三岁以上儿童的幼儿园会非常有动力开设一到两个面向三岁以下儿童的班级。

And one thing that would definitely happen is that the current kindergartens who are giving care and education to those over the age of three would find it very much motivating to also start one or two classes for those who are under the age of three.

这听起来很简单，但它们确实需要为年幼的孩子提供独立的空间。

It sounds easy, but definitely, they need to have separate spaces for the younger kids.

它们需要配备足够专业的保育人员，能够照顾那些甚至还不会交流的孩子。

They need to have the kind of caregivers who are professional enough to be able to take care of kids who might not even be able to communicate.

在某些地方，它们甚至可能设置供家长使用的房间和哺乳区。

And maybe in certain places, they would even provide rooms for parents to come and for breastfeeding areas.

这些就是幼儿园将做出的调整。

So those are the adaptation that the kindergartens would make.

但想想它们的优势。

But think about their strengths.

它们已经知道如何照顾非常年幼的孩子。

They already know how to take care of really young kids.

它们已经拥有不仅包括教室，还有游乐场的空间——这对幼儿来说非常重要。

They already have the space for not only the classrooms, but also playground, which is very, very important for young age kids.

户外活动对他们的成长非常重要。

Outdoor time is very important for their development.

另一个有趣的事情是，现在他们必须雇佣持有专业证书的人员，无论是机构还是专业保育人员都承担起责任。

And another thing that is quite interesting is that now their mandate to hire those with a professional certificate, and both the facilities, the institutions, and the professional caregivers are bearing responsibilities.

过去，如果一家私立机构雇佣的是仅凭天然爱心和关怀照顾孩子的人员，那么责任完全落在机构身上。

So for previously, perhaps if a private institution hired those who are only taking care of the kids based on their natural love and care, that's the responsibility falling onto the institutions.

但现在，只要你在这一行业工作，就必须具备专业知识和证书，这将使整个保育行业更加专业、安全和可信。

But now as long as you are working in this profession, you would need the professional knowledge, you would need a certificate, which would make the caregiver well, I mean, the entire caregiver sector more professional and safe and trustworthy.

是的。

Yeah.

我想起我曾经与北京一家私立幼儿园的负责人交谈时，他们也开始招收两到三岁的幼儿。

I think about when I try to in talk with one of the caregiver well, more of a private kindergartens in in Beijing, and they are opening also opening to children under the age of three, from two to three.

在那里工作的一位老师或保育员，实际上是来自一家公立幼儿园的退休人员。

And one of the teachers working there or caregiver working there is actually a retiree from a previous public kindergarten.

我问了她的资质，她说：我不仅有三十多年照顾孩子的经验，而且我热爱

And I asked about her credentials, and she said, not only I have more than thirty years of taking care of children, I have love for

他们。

them.

嗯。

Mhmm.

我知道她愿意分享对孩子的热情和爱，这很好也很善良，但这也让我对这些机构产生信任问题，因为我不能依赖你对我的孩子在这所机构里一年时间的个人情感。

I know it's nice and very kind of her to to share this passion and love for the children, but still that have that sort of reinforce my my trust issue with this in facilities is that I can't rely on your personal emotions about my children's one year's time in this facility.

我需要一些系统性的保障。

I need some systematic protection.

我认为，通过这项现行法律，以及对这些专业人士实施考试和持证要求的系统性变革，

And I think with this current law, with this more of a systematic change for these professionals with exams, with licensing required for these professionals.

根据法律，这意味着任何照顾儿童的人都必须通过国家组织的考试并满足特定的教育要求。

According to the law, this means anyone caring for children must pass a state run exam and meet specific educational requirements.

他们正在将这种‘我爱孩子’的工作转变为一种更受认可的职业，不仅更有尊严，而且更有界限和标准。

They're shifting this I have love for children job to a more of a recognized profession with more not only dignity, but also, you know, boundaries and standards.

我知道你的意思。

I know what you mean.

我知道你的意思。

I I know what you mean.

这么说听起来有点刻薄，但你并不是那个意思。

And and it does sound a little mean to say, but you don't mean it that way.

我觉得你完全公平，我认为每个父母都会这么想。

And I think you're completely fair, and I think that's what every parent would think.

如果你去雇一个餐厅厨师，你会说：告诉我你的厨师经验。

If you go and you wanna hire a chef for a restaurant, and you say, tell me about your experience as a chef

我喜欢烹饪。

I love cooking.

如果他们说：嗯，我喜欢食物，我已经吃了三十五年了。

And they say if they say, well, you know, I love food, and I've been eating for thirty five years.

嗯。

Mhmm.

太好了。

Oh, great.

你有这方面的证书吗？

Do you have a certificate for that?

对吧？

Right?

我的意思是，这么说听起来有点刻薄，但你讨论的是那些希望给孩子最好条件的父母。

I mean, it sounds like a little bit of jerk thing to say, but you're talking about parents who are wanting the best for their children.

是的。

Yes.

现在在中国，我们看到有超过12万家与托育相关的公司正在运营，仅2025年就有超过1.5万家新注册。

And now here in China, we see there are more than 120,000 childcare related companies currently in operation and over 15,000 new registrations in 2025 alone.

我相信，随着这项新法规（目前仍是草案）的通过，我们将看到这个行业的发展，更多专业人才进入这一领域，这将让我们作为父母感到更加安心。

And I believe with this new possible now it's still a draft law, but when it passed, we can see the expansion of the industry and definitely more and more professional talent getting in to this industry, which would be much assuring to us as parents.