数字复活的伦理困境

讨论让世界运转。这

Discussion keeps the world turning. This

是圆桌派。这里是圆桌派。我是史蒂夫·哈瑟利，今天与雨顺和雨珊一起。接下来，数字复活的年代已经开始模糊了有意义的致敬与令人不安的侵犯之间的界限。这场伦理危机是由中国一家茶企使用已故学者的数字重现形象推销产品引发的。

is Roundtable. This is Roundtable. I'm Steve Hatherley joined today by Yushun and Yushan. Coming up, the era of digital resurrection has begun blurring the line between a meaningful tribute and a disturbing violation. This ethical crisis was sparked when a tea company here in China used a recreated version of a late scholar to sell a product.

没错。我特意以提问形式提出。但这让我们不禁思考，这样做可以接受吗？还是需要划定界限来保护逝者的权利？之后是'动力星期一'时间。如果你的周一需要一点激励，你来对地方了。

Yes. I put that in question form on purpose. But it leaves us to wonder, is that okay or do lines need to be drawn to protect the rights of those who have passed? After that, motivational Monday time. If your Monday needs a little motivating, you have come to the right place.

请继续关注。我们的播客听众可以在苹果播客上搜索'圆桌派中国'找到我们。别忘了，我们喜欢听到你的声音，所以请就节目中讨论的任何议题发送语音留言分享你的想法。具体方式是：发送至qq.com的roundtable播客邮箱。

Stay tuned for that. Our podcast listeners can find us at Roundtable China on Apple Podcasts. And don't forget, we love hearing your voice, so send us a voice note with your thoughts on any of the issues that we discuss here on the program. Here's how you do that. Roundtable podcast at qq.com.

再次重复：qq.com的roundtable播客邮箱。现在，能够复活逝者音容的AI技术带来了巨大的伦理困境。技术确实存在，也确实令人惊叹。但它在提供保存遗产和抚慰哀思的强大新工具的同时，也迫使我们直面关于同意、尊严和商业剥削的紧迫问题。

Once again, roundtable podcast at qq.com. And now, the emergence of AI capable of resurrecting the voices and images of the deceased presents a pretty big ethical dilemma. Yes. The tech is there, and yes, it is impressive. But while it offers powerful new tools for preserving legacy and facilitating grief, it simultaneously forces us to confront really urgent questions about consent and dignity and commercial exploitation.

最近某茶企使用数字技术重现已故茶学家的营销活动，在国内引发了这场辩论，让我们思考：究竟该在哪里划界区分有意义的致敬和不道德的使用？这是个非常有趣的故事。请为我们详细讲述。

A recent campaign featuring a digitally digitally recreated late tea scholar, it was used by a tea company here in the country. It's ignited this very debate, and it makes us ask where exactly should we draw the line between what is a meaningful tribute and unethical use? This is a really kind of interesting story. So tell us what that story is.

正如你所提到的这个故事，在一分钟的视频中，张天福是中国著名茶学家，自称活了180岁，品茶八十余载。随后他分享了一些品茶技巧和饮茶益处等内容。这位张天福先生是中国现代十大著名茶专家之一，也被誉为当代中国茶文化大师。

So this story, as you mentioned it, in this one minute long video, Zhang Tianfuhu is a renowned tea scholar in China, said he had lived to 180 years old and had been tasting and trying tea for more than eighty years. And then he shared some tea tasting skills and the benefits of drinking tea and something like that. And this Zhang Tianfu was a renowned Chinese tea scholar and recognized as one of China's 10 leading modern tea experts, and he was also held as a master of contemporary Chinese tea culture.

是的。我认为我们讨论的这个事件的核心在于，在这场公开辩论中我们看到，正如雨顺你刚才提到的张先生，他于2017年以108岁高龄去世。而最近，由福建江天福品牌管理公司运营的'张天福茶业'微信公众号发布了一段视频。

Yeah. And I think the whole highlight of this incident we're talking about is because here in this public debate, we see that mister Zhang, as Yushun, you just mentioned, he passed away at the age of 100 and eight years old in back in 2017. And then lately, a video that was released by the WeChat account of Zhang Tianfu Tea Industry operated by Fuji and Jiang Tianfu brand management company.

所以这个品牌是以江天福命名的。

So the the brand named after Jiang Tian.

嗯，好的。

Yeah. Okay.

他们算是制作了这段AI视频。而且公司员工声称，视频是在张天福先生儿子授权下制作的。

So they were kind of making this AI video. And also the company staff stated that the video was produced under authorization from mister Zhang Tianfu's son.

是的，张多友。就是他。实际上在10月15日，张多友声明他已获得已故茶艺大师张天福的合法授权，可以管理和使用其形象、声音及签名，而且是在他生前就获得的？没错。

Yeah. Zhang Duo You. That's who he is. And on, actually, October 15, Zhang Duo You stated that he had been legally authorized by his late father, tea master Zhang Tianfu, to manage and also use his image, voice, and signature, and that While he was alive? Yes.

这段AI生成的视频旨在推广茶文化，这就是他的立场。嗯。因此他认为自己有权将形象授权给这家公司。

The the AI generated video was meant to promote tea culture, and that that was his stand. Mhmm. That was why he thinks that he can authorize to this company the the image.

他认为为已故父亲制作'复活'的AI形象是完全没问题的。

And that is totally okay to create a resurrected AI image of his deceased father.

他儿子是这家公司的CEO。

Son his son is the CEO of this company.

或者更准确地说，是慈善

Or rather the charitable

基金会。

The foundation.

是的，基金会。因为他算是这个基金会的主席，然后这个基金会授权公司使用张天福的形象和声音。但问题是，冲突由此产生。张天福的遗孀张晓红强烈反对，称该视频不敬且误导，并表示将采取法律行动。

Yeah. Foundation. So because he is kind of the chairman of this foundation, and then this foundation authorized to the company to use the image and also voice of Zhang Tianfu. But the thing is that and also here comes the conflict. Zhang Tian Fu's widow, Zhang Xiaohong, strongly objected, calling the video disrespectful and misleading and said she would take legal action.

此外，约翰·蒂夫的朋友们也批评这个AI视频是对他遗产的侮辱。

And also friends of John Tieff also criticized the AI video as an insult to his legacy.

视频发布后人们留下了哪些评论？

What were some of the comments that people left when the video was posted?

有些评论只是表达对这位专家学者的哀悼。有些则感谢分享关于品茶的理念和知识。还有些人意识到这是AI生成的，认为使用其形象不妥。所以评论褒贬不一，人们会说这是我们需要讨论的问题——我们这样做真的表示尊重吗，还是并非如此

Some of them are just, you know, paying and sending grief to this expert and scholar. Some of them are just, you know, saying that thank you for sharing that kind of idea and knowledge on tasting tea. And some of them realize that this is AI generated and they don't think it is appropriate using the image. So mixed comments and people would say this is something that we need to discuss on are we really showing respect by using that or this is not

恰当。这正是互联网意见分歧之处。据我所知，还有些评论与视频本身无关，只是人们留下自己的链接来推销他们的人工智能服务？

appropriate. This is where the Internet's divided. And as far as I know, were some comments as well that weren't related to the video itself, just people leaving their own link for their own advertising their own AI services?

是的。不过在这个案例中不算特别明显。其他一些案例中，当有人制作AI生成内容，比如关于某位已故歌手的视频时，评论区就有人会说'想制作类似视频吗？我有技术'之类的话。

Yeah. Like, in not particularly in this case. That's for some other cases when someone else make an AI generated content, video content on I think it was on some singer who passed away. And then underneath that video in the comment section, people were saying that, oh, do you want to make similar video? I've got the tech.

没错。所以在法律层面我们站在一边，而另一边则是整个伦理灰色地带。但说到数字复活，我们需要先理清法律问题，因为这事存在不同层级。

Yeah. So this is where this is where legally, we stand on one side, and then there's the whole gray ethical area as well. But when it comes to let's get into the legality of things, because when it comes to digital resurrection, there are different levels of this.

层级？说到法律灰色地带，我们指的是现行法律。不仅在中国，包括中国在内的许多国家都保护个人形象和名誉权，但往往缺乏对逝者数字权利的明确规定。所以最大的问题是：

Levels? I think by legal gray areas, we're referring to the current laws. And it's not just in China. It's in many countries, including China, that protect personal image and reputation, but often lack career rules for digital rights of the deceased ones. So here is the biggest question.

一个人去世后，其数字身份归谁所有？是家属、国家，还是生成这些逝者数字形象的平台？由于缺乏健全法律框架，目前仍难以追究违规者责任。在这个案例中，你提到已故茶艺大师的儿子提交了一份肖像权许可协议，包含'永久授权'条款并有大师手写签名。但问题是：

Who owns a person's digital self after death? Is it the family members, the state, or the platforms that generates such avatars of these deceased pick people. So without robust legal frameworks, currently, it's still kind of difficult to hold violators accountable. And in this particular case, I think, Yushun, you mentioned that the the son of the deceased tea master, he attached a portrait rights licensing agreement that included the term permanent authorization with the tea master's handwritten signature at in the end. But here's the thing.

当初他手签那份协议时，AI对他们来说根本不存在。那么这种授权对如今这类技术究竟有多大效力？

Back then, when he hand signed that agreement, AI wasn't even a thing for them. Yeah. Right. So how much of authorization coverage does that really mean to generations like this?

有专家确实解释过数字复活的不同层级。北海大学法学院副教授王琪表示，根据生成数字人的智能水平，数字复活可以分为几个等级。

Some of the experts actually explained on the different levels of digital resurrection. Wang Qi, an associate professor at the School of Law Beihan University, said that digital resurrection can be divided into several tiers depending on the level of intelligence of such digital human generated.

智能意味着嗯。AI图像能做什么或正在做什么？

Intelligence meaning Mhmm. What the AI image capable of do or what it's doing?

是的。我会说这是这类技术工具的能力。最基础的形式是用AI让逝者的照片动起来，使数字人能展现基本表情或动作。更高级的形式则能实现互动交流，让数字人可以与他人对话。而最先进的形态具备学习能力，使数字人能从真实个体的网络活动中持续学习，甚至在去世后仍能与家人朋友保持互动。

Yeah. The capability of the kind of technological tools, I would say. The simplest form uses AI to make photos of the deceased move, allowing the digital person to display basic expressions or gestures. And then a more advanced form enables interactive communication, allowing the digital person to talk with others. And the the most advanced form features learning capabilities, allowing the digital person to continuously learn from the real individual's online activities and maintain interactions with family and friends even after death.

这让我想起一部美国电视剧，叫《上载新生》。你可以上传你的...实际上是你的大脑。对，你的思想，你的意识。

That reminded me of a, I think, American TV series that's called upload. You can upload your your your actually, your brain. Yeah. Your idea, your mind.

你。上传你。

You. Upload you.

是的。上传到互联网服务器上，然后你就能永远活着，所谓的永生，因为你生活在那个数字世界里，但这些都是科幻...

Yeah. Onto a Internet server, then you can live forever, like so called live forever because you are living in that digital world, but that that's all like sci This

这是有争议的，而且争议是有充分理由的。我们可以找到负面例子，想想看，也能找到正面例子。是的，玉山，你说得对。我之前提到的网友用广告评论的情况，是发生在一位演员和歌手去世时，那些评论就像AI产品一样，让很多人感到不适。那位已故演员的父亲公开表示无法接受，希望尽快下架这类视频。

is contentious and it's contentious for for good reasons, and we can find negative examples, think, and we can find positive examples. Yeah. Yushan, you're right. What I was talking about before about netizens commenting with advertisements, that was when an actor and a and a singer passed away, and those were the comments, like, AI products, and made it made a lot of people uncomfortable. The father of that late actor publicly stated that he could not accept this, and he hoped that such videos would be taken down as soon as possible.

同样地，那位歌手的母亲也发布了律师声明，要求删除那系列短视频。这理所当然会被视为对家属极其不尊重的行为，因为他们试图从中牟利或至少进行推广。这是负面例子，但也有积极的案例存在。

And then similarly, the mother of the singer issued a lawyer statement demanding the removal and deletion of the short video series. This would be seen by, and for good reason, very, very insensitive to the family members because they're trying to presumably make some sort of profit or at least promotion out of this. That's on the bad side, but there's also positive examples too.

是的。一个极具代表性的例子就是音乐人包小柏的故事，他在2024年利用人工智能技术，为2021年去世的22岁女儿创建了数字人形象。包先生曾多次公开表示，他无法忍受没有女儿的生活带来的悲痛。因此，AI技术在这里被用来为他重建某种寄托，以此方式纪念他的女儿。

Yeah. One would one very iconic example in this case would be the musician Bao Xiaobei's story, where he used the artificial intelligence technology back in 2024 to create a digital human of his 22 year old daughter who passed away in 2021. So mister Bao, he publicly announced many often that he just couldn't bear the the the sorrow of having to live a life without his daughter. So, basically, AI technology here is utilized in his case to recreate something for him to pay his tribute and just to remember his daughter in in in this way.

是的，不过有个...抱歉打断一下

Yeah. And But there's a bit sorry to interrupt

你请说。

you.

对，但这里存在一个关键区别——女儿。

Yeah. But there's one major difference there. Daughter.

没错。他是内容创作者，同时也是逝者家属，有权授权科技公司使用已故女儿的声音和肖像。但我们提到的其他多数案例中，通常不具备这种...

Exactly. He is the person who generated the the the content and also the family of the deceased in this case who are who who is able to authorize the right to the technology company to utilize the voices and image of his deceased daughter. But in many other cases we mentioned, that's not usually

情况并非如此。那么伦理问题...我是说，这方面肯定有一长串清单，但其中主要的伦理担忧有哪些？

It's not the case. The Yeah. So what are the ethical I mean, there there must be a laundry list, but what are the some of the ethical concerns here?

知情同意绝对是核心问题之一。逝者无法就其形象、声音或人格特征的使用给予知情同意。未经事先明确授权，这类数字重建可能侵犯逝者的尊严与个人意愿。正如近期争议所示——比如已故歌手和演员的AI生成视频案例——家属公开反对这种被他们视为情感或商业剥削的行为。因为即便创作者声称这是表达敬意或寄托哀思，相关人士未必认同这种说法。

Consentment is absolutely one of the things. Right? The deceased cannot provide informed consent for how their image, voice, or personality is used. Without explicit prior authorization, such recreations risk violating their dignity and also personal wishes and as seen in recent controversies such as AI generated videos of deceased singer and actor mentioned above, families have publicly objected to what they view as emotional or commercial exploitation because even though you say or the people who generated it say it is a it is paying their respect and is paying their griefs or something. Maybe some people that relate to them don't think so.

这简直就是剥削。

It is just exploitation.

是啊。我不知道为什么我会做这个比较，但在加拿大，你可以签署器官捐献卡，同意在你去世后捐献器官。

Yeah. I don't know why I'm drawing this comparison, but in Canada, you can sign an organ donor card for when you pass away.

我们这儿也一样。

Same here.

没错。所以那是同意使用你的肾脏、肺或其他任何可用器官去帮助需要的人。但你是自愿签署那张卡的。他们不会未经同意就擅自取用。

Yeah. Okay. So that's giving consent to use your kidneys or your lungs or whatever organs they can for someone who needs them. But you sign that card. They don't just take it without your consent.

虽然不完全相同，但某种程度上是相似的——因为他们利用你的形象、声音，克隆技术已经能复制一个人的声音、肢体习惯、言行举止，用于宣传或销售目的。很容易理解为什么家属会对此感到情感上的不适。法律上这也是灰色地带，毕竟你说过，这位先生在世时AI还不存在。这类情况在法律界同样前所未见。

It's it's not the same, but it's kind it's kind of the same because they're using your likeness, your voice, clone the technology is there to clone a person's voice, body mannerisms, the way they move and talk for the sake of promotion or for the sake of sale. It's pretty easy to see why families could be emotionally upset by this for sure. Legally, are there this is a gray area too, I would think, because, you know, you said, well, AI didn't exist when this man was alive. Well, these types of situations didn't exist in the legal world either.

是的。包括中国在内的许多国家现行法律保护个人形象和名誉，但往往缺乏对数字身后权的明确规定，于是问题依然存在：一个人去世后，谁拥有其数字身份的所有权？

Yeah. And current laws in many countries, including China, protect personal image and reputation, but often maybe lack clear rules for digital postflumous rights, and questions then may remain. Who owns a person's digital self after death?

没错。关键在于《民法典》第九百九十四条明确规定：若死者姓名、肖像、名誉、荣誉、隐私或遗体遭受侵害，其配偶、子女、父母有权要求侵权人承担民事责任。这意味着在法律层面，逝者的肖像权转化为受保护的法益而非延续的民事权利。因此我的结论是：在伦理滑坡的风险与利用逝者受保护法益的合法性之间，存在极其微妙的界限。

Yeah. Here's the thing. Article nine nine four of China's civil code clearly stipulates that if the name, image, reputation, honor, privacy, or remains of the of a deceased person are infringed upon, the spouse, the children, and parents, they have the right to demand civil liability from the infringer. And this means that in legal terms, a deceased person's portrait rights transform into a protected interest rather than a continuing civil rights. So here's the conclusion I'm drawing that is there's a very fine line between the ethical sliding kind of disadvantage and also the legality of using this protected interest of someone who's passed away.

这取决于你使用它的目的，就像音乐人包小柏的案例那样，其目的仅是为了纪念和排解失去亲人的悲痛。但对其他人而言，若涉及商业化使用——这也是茶艺师案例如今引发巨大讨论的部分原因——你利用逝者的形象和声音究竟意欲何为？

That is if the purpose of you using it, like in the in the musician Baoxiao Bay's case, the purpose is merely to remember and to to just for him to put down the sorrow of losing a loved one. But then for others, if it comes to commercialized use, which is also partially why the tea master's case is inspiring such a huge discussion nowadays is what are you using the the dead man's image and voices for?

嗯。

Mhmm.

如果这是为了公司宣传，即便以他本人名义，本质上仍是商业行为。

If this is a promotion of your company, even though it's under his own name, but it's still commercial.

从法律角度或许很难界定意图。

It's difficult to legally diff perhaps legally define intent.

确实如此。

So true.

没错。该如何判断这是商业用途还是纪念行为？这个茶艺师案例之所以棘手，是因为基金会由他儿子掌管，但反对的是他母亲或继母——我们不清楚具体关系——这演变成了真正的家庭内部纠纷。

Yeah. What how how do you say whether this is for commercial use or whether this is for honoring a memory. And this tea case is such a hot potato because it's his son who's in charge of the foundation, but it was his mother or stepmother. We don't know the relationship there, but she's the one who said no. I'm so this is a real in family, situation.

顺便科普下美国的情况（我之前也不了解）：关于在AI广告中使用逝者的法律边界，美国目前只有各州零散立法，缺乏联邦层面的统一法规。其合法性取决于公开权原则，即遗产管理人是否有权授权使用形象。全美约有24个州承认死后公开权，这个细节也很有意思。

In America, if you're curious to know, because I didn't I didn't know about it, the legal boundaries for using deceased people in AI advertisements, there's currently kind of a patchwork of state level laws in America, but there's no comprehensive federal legislation. But the legality hinges on the right of publicity, meaning, does the estate have the right to say, yes, you can use this image or no, you cannot? And that goes state by state. There are approximately 24 states that recognize a postmortem right of publicity. And also, found this to be interesting.

权利期限差异巨大，从十年到死后一百多年不等。例如，加州法律保护期限为七十年，但有些州完全不提供死后保护，这意味着在这些司法管辖区，逝者的肖像可能被随意使用而无需任何同意。因此从法律角度看，我们正处于需要制定具体规范的阶段，因为目前存在巨大的灰色地带。不过这个故事很有意思，未来我们可能会反复讨论这个话题，至少在接下来一段时间内。您正在收听《圆桌讨论》吗？

The duration of the right varies widely from ten to one hundred over a hundred years after death. For exam for example, California law protects for seventy years, but some states offer no posthumous protection at all, meaning that in those jurisdictions, a deceased person's likeness could potentially be used without any consent at all. So it seems that legally, we're in a a stage where some sort of specifications need to be put in place because there seems like a big giant gray area, for all. Interesting story though, and probably one that we'll be talking about again and again and again, at least for the next while. You're listening to Roundtable?

别走开，接下来是'励志星期一'环节。励志星期一。励志星期一。对了我们能改个名字吗？

Stick around. We've got motivational Monday on the way. Motivational Mondays. Motivational Mondays. Can we change that by the way?

这名字听起来太疯狂了。'励志星期一'时间到，Yushin，你先来分享吧。

It just sounds mad. Motivational Monday time and Yushin, you're gonna share with us first.

是的。今天第一个话题，关于政策变化的讨论确实启发了我，让我意识到人生并不遵循固定时间线。我们很多人会对年龄感到焦虑，总担心自己没达到'应有'的位置，没有实现某些里程碑，或者错过了重新开始的机会。但这就是生活的真谛——它不是一场竞赛。

Yeah. So the today's topic one, the first topic, the policy change actually inspired me and reminded me that life doesn't follow one fixed timeline and so many of us people feel anxious about age. We worry we're not where we are quote unquote supposed to be, that we haven't reached certain milestones or that maybe we've missed our chance to start something new. But that's the thing about life. It's not a race.

重新开始永远不晚。很多人都听过那句老话：种树的最佳时间是十年前，其次是现在。无论是新事业、曾经搁置的梦想，还是能让生活更美好的新习惯，当你决定开始的瞬间就已经是胜利。我们以不同速度、朝不同方向成长，有人早早绽放，有人需要时间深耕才能破土。但每个阶段、每次重启都为我们的生命增添了宝贵价值。

It's never too late to begin again. And I think a lot of people know that old saying, the best time to plant a tree was ten years ago, and the second best time is now. So whether it's a new career, a dream you once set aside, or simply a new habit that makes your life a little bit brighter, the moment you decide to start is already a victory. So we all grow at different speeds, in different directions, and some people balloon, maybe early, and others take time to root deeply before they rise. And but every stage, every restart adds something valuable to who we are.

这有点...不，是非常不合理——无论你来自世界何处，要求你在22岁大学毕业时就该把人生规划好。那时候你可能连自己的兴趣所在都不清楚，甚至不知道自己擅长什么。我直到26、27岁才知道自己会从事广播行业。

It's a little bit it's a little bit un no. It's a lot unreasonable to assume no matter where you're from in the world that you would have your life figured out by the age of 22 when you graduate from university. You might not even know what you might not know what you're interested in. You might not even know what you're good at at that age. I didn't know that I would have a career in broadcasting until the age of, what, 26 or 27 years old.

噢，我事先可没计划过这个。

Oh. I didn't plan on that beforehand.

嗯。

Mhmm.

那么，对于那些你甚至不知道会到来的事情，你该如何准备呢？我们之前提到过，你是对的。这确实说不通。

So how are you supposed to prepare for things that you don't even know are coming? And we mentioned You're right. It doesn't make sense.

是的。我们在第一个话题中提到过，中国有成语说'三十而立'，意思是在30岁时应该安身立命。但是，嘿，那时候人们的平均寿命

Yeah. We mentioned earlier in the first topic that if there's there are Chinese idioms like such as as in you should be grounded with a certain job or a life expected life at the age of 30. But, hey, back in back then, people's average age

人生

Life

并不长。50岁就算高寿了。是的。所以如果我们保持灵活，随心而行，顺其自然，不要把自己固定在某个年龄上，这才说得通。

limits, lifetime, lifespan isn't that long either. 50 years old is considered old enough. Yeah. So yeah. And it only makes sense that we if we remain flexible and go with your heart, go with the flow, and don't get yourself fixed on certain age.

很快啊。所以你们俩都不相信35岁这个门槛的说法？你们不认同吗？

Very quickly. So neither of you buy into that 35 year old threshold thing? You don't believe it?

我们还没到那个年纪去相信它。不过，是的，我认为它确实存在，可以这么说。

We haven't gotten to that age yet to believe it. But, yeah, I do believe it it it exists, let's say.

但也不要让年龄或恐惧阻碍你前进。

But and also don't let age or fear stop you.

说得好。今天的圆桌会议就到这里。非常感谢大家今天抽出时间与我们分享。感谢节目中的30位嘉宾，Yushin和Yushan。我是35组的成员。

Well said. And that will do it for today's roundtable. Thank you very much for sharing your time with us today. Thank you to the 30 on the show, Yushin and Yushan. I'm the 35 group.

下次见。

See you next time.