粗鲁的新规则

讨论让世界运转。

Discussion keeps the world turning.

是圆桌会议。

Is roundtable.

您正在收听的是圆桌会议。

You're listening to roundtable.

我是林永鸿，与史蒂夫和黎明一起参与讨论。

I'm Yong Hong Lin, joined by Steve and Lai Ming.

如果你曾听过Z世代的谈话，无论是在校园草坪、群聊还是游戏直播中，可能会发现一个令人惊讶的现象。

If you've ever over Gen z talk, whether on a campus lawn, a group chat, or a gaming stream, you may notice something surprising.

那些曾被视为粗俗至极的词汇，如今几乎不再引起注意。

The words that used to be considered the peak of vulgarity barely register anymore.

但如果说些针对他人种族、性别或能力的话，红线会立即且坚决地划下。

But say something that targets someone's race, gender, or ability, that's where the red line is drawn instantly and firmly.

显然，关于什么是脏话的新等级标准已经形成，这反映的更多是社会问题而非语言本身。

Clearly, there is a new hierarchy of what counts as bad language, and it says more about society than about sentences.

新的语言研究表明，禁忌语的边界在年轻一代中正发生剧烈变化。

New linguistic research suggests that the boundaries of taboo language are shifting dramatically among younger generations.

虽然传统脏话已失去大部分杀伤力，但涉及身份群体的词汇却成为最不被社会接受的表达形式。

While classic profanities have lost much of their sting, words that determine identity groups have become the most socially unacceptable forms of expression.

所以请为我解惑。

So please enlighten me.

现在哪些话是可以接受的，哪些是不行的？

What are now considered okay and what are not?

是的。

Yeah.

这其实算是时代变迁的一种表现。

So this is just kind of a changing of the times.

顺便说一下，我们这次谈话至少会有一部分聚焦西方语言，特别是英语文化圈的情况。

And by the way, this chat will be focused on Western language, English language culture for at least a part of it.

不过我也想请教关于中文的情况。

Although, I do wanna ask about Chinese as well.

但根据他们的研究发现，那些传统的脏话或诅咒语——也就是我父母那辈人听了会觉得冒犯的词——现在已不再具有三四十年前那样的分量了。

But yeah, what they found from their research is that your traditional swear words or curse words, if you will, the words that my parents' generation may find offensive upon hearing them, now don't have the same weight, don't carry the same weight as they did say thirty, forty, fifty years ago.

这里就不一一列举具体词汇了，但你可以发挥想象力猜猜大概是哪些词。

Now, not going to go through a list of words, but you can use your imagination and guess guess what those might be.

不过研究确实发现，Z世代对带有种族主义或性别歧视意味的词汇非常反感，这些词会贬低他人或特定群体，使他们边缘化。

What they did find through the research, though, is that Gen Z is very much offended by words that are considered racist or sexist, words that demean other people or groups of people, marginalize them.

这些可以说是他们眼中的'新型脏话'了。

Those are kind of the quote unquote new curse words to them.

有意思。

Interesting.

是啊。

Yeah.

我记得刚进入媒体这行时就被教导过，尤其在英语中不能说'disabled people'（残障人士）。

I remember when I first start working in this line of work in media, I was told that, well, especially in English, you don't say disabled people.

要说'people with disabilities'（患有残疾的人士），因为他们首先是'人'，残疾只是他们拥有的一个特征。

You say people with disabilities because they're people, and disabilities is just something that they have.

我们不应该用他们的残疾来定义他们，这一点我完全同意。

You should not be defining them with their disabilities, which I fully agree.

我觉得这个概念是相似的，不是吗？

I think the concept is similar, isn't it?

关于内涵，关键在于你关注什么，是关于当今世界不可接受的现象或称呼方式。

About the connotation, it's about what you focus on, it's about the kind of phenomenon or way of addressing people that are not acceptable today's world.

我既同意也不同意，因为你这里说的是政治正确性。

I'll say yes and no, because there you're talking about politically correct Yes.

术语方面是的。

Terms Yes.

但这些讨论的是侮辱性词汇。

But these are talking about slurs.

侮辱性词汇。

Slurs.

这些都是贬义词，通常带有伤害他人的意图，即使没有太多伤害他人的意图，如果某些人在公共场合听到这些词，可能所有人都会觉得冒犯。

These are derogatory terms, with the intent of usually, with the intent of hurting people, and even if there is not much intent to hurt other people, if certain people were to hear those words in public particularly, then they would be considered offensive perhaps even by everyone.

就拿我来说吧，因为我感觉你刚才描述的许多词汇——那些可能涉及种族主义、性别歧视、或针对人们能力、体重、年龄的贬损性用语——都与政治正确性有关。

And like me if you may because I have an impression that many of the words that you've just described that are maybe racist or sexist or, you know, derogatory with regard to people's abilities or their weight or their age has to do with politics, with political correctness.

我认为仅仅因为某人能力不足或无法控制体重就贬低他们，这并不符合政治正确。

I don't think it's politically correct to demean certain people just because of the lack of competence or just because their inability to, you know, manage their weight.

这听起来很不公平，而且你这样说可能会冒犯一大群人。

It sounds unfair and you risk offending a large group of people when you say that.

让我这样解释吧。

Let me explain it like this.

比如我上高中时，有次和父亲看电影，场景里出现了脏话。

For example, when I was in high school in when I was watching a movie with my dad and the f word would be in the scene.

嗯。

Mhmm.

我父亲会很生气地说：为什么这种内容非要出现在场景里？

My dad would get upset and he said, why why does this need to be a part of the scene?

这对艺术本身毫无贡献。

It doesn't contribute anything to the art itself.

这完全是多余的。

It's gratuitous.

我当时很难不同意他的观点。

And I had a hard time disagreeing with him.

但比如'操'这个词，它并不是针对任何人的。

But the f word, for example, it's not directed at anyone.

它不是用来攻击别人的。

It's not used to attack someone.

对吧？

Right?

所以，这是其中一类词语。

So, that's the classification of one group.

像'操'、'屎'这类词，或者其他什么词。

The f word, the s word, or whatever other words.

它们只是过去人们觉得冒犯的古老脏话罢了。

They're just the old time curse words that people used to find offensive.

它们现在可以接受了吗？

Are they okay now?

因为，嗯，

Because Well,

部分原因，这也是研究的一部分，是因为社交媒体的影响。

part of the part of the reason and this is part of the research is because of social media.

是因为人们现在对这些词汇已经变得麻木，因为它们出现得太频繁了。

Is because people have now become desensitized to these words because they see them so often.

这些词汇已经变得常态化，我们使用得越频繁，听到得越多，它们的实际含义就越淡化。

They've become normalized and the more often we use words, the more often we hear them, the less impact their meaning has.

举个例子，如果我每天对你说35次'我爱你'。

For example, if I were to say to you 35 times a day, I love you.

那么，

Well,

一开始这并没有多大意义。

the It first doesn't mean a lot.

第一次你可能会觉得，哇，这真的很棒。

The first time you might, wow, that's really amazing.

是的。

Yes.

但到了第三十五次，这个词的意义就会减弱一些。

But the thirty fifth time, the word would lose its meaning a little bit.

嗯。

Mhmm.

这就是现在发生的情况，因为在我父亲那一代，他每天接触的人大概只有四五十个。

That's what's happening here because in my dad's generation, my dad had access to, I don't know, 40 or 50 people on a daily basis.

他是一名高中副校长，日常接触的人包括学生，那些学生从不在他面前说脏话。

He was a high school vice principal who he would interact with including his students who never used bad language in front of him.

他回家后，家人包括孩子们也从不在他面前说脏话。

He would come to home to his family where nobody, his children did not use bad language in front of him.

我从未听我父亲说过脏话。

I've never heard my dad swear.

所以他从未接触过那些词汇。

So, he never had access to any of those words.

对吧？

Right?

你唯一可能听到这些词的地方就是在电影或类似场合。

The only time you would hear it would be in a movie or something like that.

嗯。

Mhmm.

这意味着敏感度会非常高。

Which would mean the sensitivity level would be really high.

今天我们讨论这项研究的核心在于，由于Z世代通过社交媒体、电影、音乐、各种艺术形式和游戏接触了太多内容。

The point of this research that we're talking about today is that because Gen Z has been so exposed through social media, through film, through music, through different forms of art, through Games.

通过游戏、通过彼此互动，那些老派的脏话已经失去了它们原有的意义。

Through games, through interaction with each other, that those old school curse words, they don't have the same meaning that they used to.

我记得他们把纽约市评为美国第十七粗俗的城市还是什么的。

I think they ranked New York City the seventeenth most vulgar city in America or something like that.

因为你总是听到脏话。

Because you hear the f word all the time.

因为它无处不在，但其实也不是

Because it's just every well, it's not

作为形容词用吗？

As an adjective?

对，没错。

Yeah, exactly.

我的意思是，我不想让那些从未去过纽约的人觉得那里整天充斥着脏话轰炸。

I mean, I don't wanna, you know, for people who have never been to New York City, I don't wanna make it sound like it's just constant constant bombardment of swear words.

当然不是。

Of course not.

嗯。

Mhmm.

但同时，那些词已经变得

But at the same time, those words have become

不那么严肃。

Less serious.

不一定是正式场合的一部分。

Not necessarily a part of formal situations.

你不会在求职面试时

You're not gonna go to a a job interview

当然。

Sure.

然后爆粗口。

And drop the f bomb.

这是常识。

Every that's common sense.

嗯。

Mhmm.

但现在人们已经对此麻木了。

But it's just become desensitized now.

与此同时，你刚才已经稍微提到了这一点，那就是互联网。

At the same time, you mentioned this a little already, that is the Internet.

我认为互联网对过时甚至当下的侮辱性词汇反应非常、非常积极。

I think the Internet responses to outdated or even current slurs very, very actively.

它们被用在网络抨击中。

They use them in Internet slams.

它们被用在各种梗图里，用来开玩笑。

They use them in different memes, making jokes.

而这种玩笑，这类搞笑梗图消解了词汇的分量，削弱了其严肃性。

And that joke, that kind of joking meme takes away the weight, takes away the seriousness.

你是指脏话还是侮辱性词汇？

You're talking about swear words or slurs?

侮辱性词汇。

Slurs.

侮辱性词汇。

Slurs.

是的。

Yes.

我认为两者都是。

I think both.

脏话和侮辱性词汇。

Swear words and slurs.

当你在搞笑表情包里看到这些时，你知道这不是认真的。

When you see them in the kind of funny memes, you know it's not serious.

另外重要的一点是，你知道，它并非针对任何人，也不是有意要伤害谁的感情。

And one other important point is that, you know, it's not directed to anybody or not there to intentionally hurt the feelings of anybody.

所以我很好奇。

So I'm curious.

意图重要吗？

Do you intentions matter?

比如说，无论我们讨论的是传统的侮辱性词汇和脏话，还是当前被认为不可接受的Z世代版侮辱语，如果他们不是作为侮辱语使用，而是作为...

Let's say if no matter if we're talking about the traditional slurs and swear words or the currently, recognized as unacceptable ones, the Gen z version of slurs, if they're not using it as a slur, if they're using it as a

感叹号。

The exclamation mark.

是的。

Yes.

对。

Yep.

这重要吗？

Does it matter?

重要。

It does.

是的。

Yeah.

没错。

Yeah.

这是我作为加拿大人的观点，但言语具有强大的力量，说话者的意图并不重要。

And this is my opinion as a Canadian, but words have a lot of power, and it doesn't matter what your intention as the speaker is.

关键在于它是否会伤害到他人。

It matters whether it hurts someone else or not.

而且历史上有许多原因让人们会对某些语言感到冒犯。

And there's a lot of history and a lot of reasons for people to be offended by certain language.

所以，我认为脏话和侮辱性词汇之间有着巨大区别。

So, I find a huge distinction between curse words and slurs.

不管是不是网络迷因。

Meme or no meme.

这都不重要。

It doesn't matter.

这是不可接受的。

It's unacceptable.

从我的角度来看，这完全不可接受。

It's absolutely unacceptable from from my point of view.

所以我的回答是，没错。

So so my answer is, yeah.

我认为这非常重要。

I think it's really important.

意图根本无关紧要。

The intent makes no difference whatsoever.

那中文里呢？

What about in Chinese?

难道不存在这种情况吗？

Does this not exist?

我会感到惊讶

I would be surprised

确实存在。

It does.

我本来肯定要说，如果答案是否定的，我会非常惊讶。

It definitely was gonna say I would I would be surprised if the answer was no.

我不认为我们是在欢迎——我不喜欢这个词——一堆新的侮辱性词汇或新的脏话。

I don't think we are welcoming, I don't like that word, a bunch of new slurs or new swear words.

但我确实注意到，那些传统的脏话在年轻一代中逐渐失去了一些威力，或者说严肃性有所减弱。

But I do see the old traditional bad language losing its power a little bit or losing its seriousness a little bit in the younger generation.

当你听到小学生或中学生在对话中使用脏话和粗俗语言时，作为一个成年人，一个至少能当幼儿园孩子妈妈的年纪的人，你会感到不适。

When you hear primary school students or middle school students talking with slurs and bad languages in their conversations, as an adult, as someone who's old enough to be the mom of at least a kindergartner, you feel uncomfortable.

是的。

Yeah.

正是这种不适感让你觉得这仍然是个问题。

It's that uncomfortable feeling that makes you feel like it's still a problem.

但你看那些说话的孩子，他们彼此之间显然没有任何真正的恶意。

But you look at the people who are talking, the little kids who are talking, definitely, they are not they're not having any seriously bad attitude towards each other.

这只是他们放学回家路上很普通的对话。

It's just really a common conversation when they're getting off school to home.

所以我认为这也是代际差异的问题。

So I think it's also a generational thing.

每一代人可能都有自己不能接受的脏话清单，以及他们在某个年龄段或人生阶段可能会接受的某种粗俗或侮辱性词汇。

That is every generation might have their own list of unacceptable bat language and some kind of slur words, swear words that they may accept in a certain age or a certain period in their life.

也许等他们长大后，会开始觉得生活中其实并不需要这种语言。

Maybe when they're older, they started to think, I do not really need this language in my life.

不过我还是想稍微反驳你一下。

But again, I'm just gonna fight with you a little bit.

你把侮辱性词汇和脏话混为一谈了。

You're putting slurs and swear words in the same box, in the same category.

在之前的例子里。

In in the previous examples.

是的。

Yes.

对。

Yeah.

但这两者在今天对话的语境中完全不同，因为脏话...我突然意识到我根本不懂任何中文脏话。

But but again, these are completely and utterly different in this in the context of our conversation today, because swear words are were I don't know any I just realized I don't know any Chinese swear words.

我真的得...很好。

I really have to Good.

行动起来。

Get up on that.

但这些词没有伤害他人的潜力，因为你没有攻击他们的品格、种族，或任何关于他们个人或群体身份的特征。

But those don't have the potential to hurt someone, because you're not attacking their character, you're not attacking their race, you're not attacking anything else about who they may be as a person or as a group.

它们只是脏话而已。

They're just swear words.

它们可以独立存在。

They can exist on their own.

侮辱性词汇通常带有伤害他人的意图。

Slurs are are usually intended to hurt someone.

这就是为什么一开始我以为这与政治有关。

Which is why at the very beginning, I thought this has to do with politics.

这涉及身份政治。

It has to do with identity politics.

你认同什么？你以什么身份自居？

How do you what do you identify with?

你认为自己属于什么身份？

What do you consider yourself to be?

而且，与西方社会不同，那里有许多影响因素，比如宗教、种族或你来自哪里。

And, unlike in Western societies, where there's a lot of factors in place, like religion or race or, you know, where you're from.

在中国，我们习惯于生活在一个统一的国家里，人们需要融合，需要相互交流。

Here in China, we're used to living in a unified country where people need to integrate, they need to interact.

因此，有一些人试图在不同群体间挑起分歧和冲突的例子。

And so there's been some examples of someone trying to instigate disagreement and conflicts between different groups of people.

但迄今为止，我们相处得非常融洽，这个问题不像在其他国家那样严重。

But so far, we've got along so well, and that is not as big of an issue as it is in a different country.

但我必须承认，我们认为的很多冒犯行为是文化强加的。

But I have to agree that, a lot of what we think is offensive is culturally imposed.

随着文化、文明和社会的变迁，这一点肯定会发生变化。

And as cultures, as our civilizations, and as the society change, that is for sure going to change.

好的。

Okay.

所以从一个成年人的视角来看，不是Z世代的人，我们关注的不仅是Z世代，还包括

So from a point of view of someone who's an adult, who's not a gen z, and we're looking at not only generation z, but also

阿尔法一代

alpha

以及那些还在操场上玩耍的小孩子们。

and also those who are still young kids in the playground.

当我们听到他们使用新的脏话，或者把传统脏话当作逗号或无关紧要的词时，我们该怎么办？

What should we do when we hear them using new swear words or using the traditional ones as a coma or Nothing.

真的吗？

Really?

如果这些话不是针对你的。

If it's not directed at you.

我同意你的观点。

I agree with you.

在地铁上听到一群青少年公开说脏话确实让人不舒服。

It's not nice to be on the subway and hear a group of teenagers using profanity in public.

这可不是什么令人愉快的事。

That's not a pleasant thing.

在那种情况下我会说什么吗？

Would I say anything in that context?

不会。

No.

如果同样是这群青少年在攻击他人——不是身体上的，而是言语上的，基于种族、性别或其他原因对某人进行言语攻击，那我就会出面干预。

If that same group of teenagers were attacking, not physically, verbally, saying someone attacking someone, based on their race or their gender or any other reason, then I would say something.

但单纯说脏话的话，有研究表明，经常说脏话的人...

But just swearing in general, there have been studies done that said that suggest swearing, people who People swear a who swear a lot.

是的。

Yes.

能释放压力、缓解疼痛。

Stress release pain reliever.

经常说脏话的人词汇量实际上比不说脏话的人更丰富。

People who swear a lot have a a more a vast vocabulary than than those who don't.

在某些情境下，我偶尔也会喜欢说些脏话。

There are certain contexts when I enjoy a good swear word from time to time.

嗯哼。

Mhmm.

你知道的，不是每天和每个打交道的人都这样，但确实，不必太当真。

You know, not not on a everyday basis with everyone I interact with, but yeah, there's not too much to be taken seriously.

有时候，这只是我的个人看法。

Sometimes, that's just my opinion.

作为一个普通人，我觉得对于社会上陌生人随意说脏话或侮辱性言语，我无能为力。

As an average individual, I don't think there's anything I can do about, some casual stranger using profanity or slurs in the society.

我的责任仅限于我抚养的孩子，我正在努力教育他。

I mean, I'm solely responsible for the child that I'm rearing, that I'm trying to educate.

如果他说了冒犯的话，那只能说明教育结果出了问题。

And if he says something that's offensive, then that's only the result.

我必须彻查这件事。

I need to get to the bottom of this.

他为什么会有这样的想法？

Why is he thinking the way he is?

他为什么要用那个词？

Why is he using that word?

我能问一下吗？

Can I ask?

弄清楚

Get to the

事情的根源。

bottom of that.

他是不是第一次说脏话了？

Has he dropped his first swear word?

还没有。

Not yet.

孩子们会学到的。

Kids pick it up.

你永远不知道他们是从哪里学来的

You never know where they pick it up

思考。

thinking.

他们是从同龄人那里学来的，并且彼此互动。

They they pick it up from their peers, and they interact with each other.

他们甚至还有流行的表达方式。

They even have popular ways of saying things.

嗯。

Mhmm.

所以我的原则和闪电侠的有点不同。

And so my principle is a bit different from Lightning's.

在我的房间里不行，在我的屋檐下不行。

That is not in my room, not under my roof.

如果你在学校，如果你在和朋友们说话，只要我没听到，就没事。

If you're in school, if you're talking to your friends, if I don't hear it, it's fine.

这是我用我的原则告诉孩子什么是对、什么是错的方式，但我也理解你的现实情况。

It's my way of telling my kid with my principle what is right, what is wrong, but I also understand your reality.

嗯哼。

So Mhmm.

这就是我的原则。

That's my principle.

但那是作为一个普通个体的我的原则。

But that's, my principle as a casual individual, average individual.

但作为媒体专业人士，我认为我们有责任在公众中塑造形象或灌输某种思维方式。

But as somebody that's media professional, I think we have a role to play to create an image or instill certain way of thinking in the general public.

我们已经讨论过这一点。

We already touched upon this.

正是因为人们对脏话变得麻木，大家才越来越习以为常。

It's precisely because people have gotten desensitized to profanity that, people are getting used to them a lot.

但我们有责任去选择——是增强人们对冒犯性词语的敏感度，还是降低并削弱他们对这些词语的反应。

But then we have a role to play, whether we like to enhance people's ability to sense offensive words or if we want to lower and diminish their reaction to these words.

我是说，

I mean,

我们需要做出选择。

we have a choice to make.

是的。

Yes.

我某种程度上把它等同于做一个好的演讲者。

I I kind of equate it to just simply being a good speaker.

因为简单的脏话，我其实并不觉得被冒犯。

Because simple swear words, I'm not I'm not really offended by.

但如果一个人在五分钟内反复不停地使用这些词，我会因为他不是一个好的演讲者而感到被冒犯。

But if a person when speaking was to use them repeatedly over and over and over within a five minute time frame, I would be offended by the fact that they're not a great speaker.

确实。

Sure.

而不是因为脏话本身。

Not by the swear words themselves.

这大概是我对此的最后一点看法。

It's kind of my final 2¢ on that.

作为一名广播员，我不确定自己有多大责任去引导公众更善于表达。

I don't know how much as as a broadcaster, I don't know how much responsibility I hold in, you know, directing the public to be more articulate.

但是

But

但我认为，归根结底我们都知道言语具有力量，我们应该更谨慎地使用语言。

But I think the, bottom line is we know words have power and, we should be a bit more careful with the language we use.

今天的圆桌讨论就到这里。

And that brings us to the end of today's roundtable.

非常感谢大家的收听。

Thank you so much for listening.

我是叶浩林，与史蒂夫和闪电一起主持。

I'm Yeoho Lin with Steve and Lightning.

再见。

Goodbye.