工作重心消失术

讨论让世界运转不息。

Discussion keeps the world turning.

这

This

是圆桌会议。

is Roundtable.

您正在收听的是圆桌会议。

You're listening to Roundtable.

我是林悠和，与史蒂夫和黎明一起主持。

I'm Yoho Lin, joined by Steve and Lai Ming.

在这个充斥着日历提醒、弹窗任务和无尽微奖励的时代，一场无声的危机正在蔓延。

In the age of calendar reminders, pop up assignments, and endless micro rewards, a silent crisis is unfolding.

我们集体进行持续、有意义工作的能力正在衰退。

Our collective capacity for sustained, meaningful work is deteriorating.

尽管效率工具层出不穷，人们却普遍感到效率降低、思考力下降，更难专注于复杂任务。

Even as productivity tools multiply, people report feeling less productive, less thoughtful, and less able to immerse themselves in complex tasks.

今天，我们邀请您一同探讨注意力——这个数字时代最稀缺的资源——如何从我们指间溜走，以及这对成长、创造力和工作效率意味着什么。

Today, we invite you to examine how attention, one of the rarest currencies of the digital age, is slipping through our fingers and what it means for growth, creativity, and work efficiency.

你是否也有那种奇怪的感觉：整天忙忙碌碌，却不确定自己到底完成了什么？

You know that weird feeling of being busy all the time but still unsure unsure what you actually accomplished?

或者当你坐下来准备工作时，不知不觉就开始刷网页的那个瞬间？

Or that moment when you sit down to work and somehow end up browsing before you even realize it?

你并不孤单。

You are not alone.

越来越多人意识到问题不在于努力程度。

More and more people are realizing that the problem isn't effort.

而是深度工作能力的丧失，这种丧失不仅影响着我们的工作方式，更在塑造着我们成为什么样的人。

It's the loss of deep work, and that loss is shaping not only how we work, but who we become.

所以我必须问你们两位这个问题。

So I have to ask this question to both of you.

你们是否经常感到忙得不可开交，却未必真有成效？

Do you ever feel constantly busy but not necessarily productive?

我很好奇拉明你会先说什么。

I'm curious to know what you say first, Laming.

我觉得我们

I think we have

你们在

You guys are above me on the

管理层级上比我高。

hierarchical managerial list.

我们更惨。

We're sadder.

我先听听你们的回答。

I'll listen to your answers first.

当面对多项任务时，没有超强大脑却要同时管理一切确实让人更沮丧。

Sadder when it comes to having multiple tasks, having to manage everything together without a super brain.

嗯。

Mhmm.

但我同意你的看法。

But I agree with you.

我也想问问莱米。

I wanna ask Limey as well.

是的。

Yeah.

哦，对。

Oh, yes.

我确实同意。

I do.

最简单的回答是肯定的。

The simplest answer is yes.

我确实同意。

I do.

但话说回来，我认为这真的取决于你如何定义'高效'。

But then again, I think it it really depends on how you define productive.

如果你问我，在主持节目、为特定节目提供优质内容方面，我是否像以前一样高效？

If you ask me, do I am I as productive in hosting the shows, in coming up with good contributions to a specific program?

不是。

No.

我不觉得自己高效。

I don't feel productive.

我现在参与的节目没有以前多了。

I'm not on as many shows as I used to.

所以这是最直观的观察结果。

So that was the, the simplest observation.

但原因可能是多方面的。

But then the reasons can be multifold.

第一，我需要同时处理更多事情。

Number one, I have more balls to juggle.

这是肯定的。

That's for sure.

第二点，我年纪越来越大了。

And then number two, I'm getting older.

没有人能越活越年轻。

Nobody's getting younger.

所以曾经的高效

So once productive

比节目刚开始时更年长了。

older than when this show started.

是啊。

Yeah.

确实如此。

That's true.

没错。

Right.

所以，这是另一个问题。

So, that's another issue.

此外，我认为科技的角色确实在让我们分心方面起到了作用。

And and then I think the role of technology really plays a part in, getting us distracted.

这绝对是个多层面的答案，我同意他说的我们同时面临许多不同任务，虽然我们可能变得更明智，但未必更聪明或更高效。

That is definitely a multifold answer, and I agree with him when he said we have a lot of different tasks altogether, and we're not getting not we're getting wiser, but maybe not smarter and faster.

不过话说回来，我确实很怀念能花几个小时专注于一部剧、一个剧本或某个产品的感觉。

But that being said, I do miss the feeling that I can spend hours concentrating on one show or one script or just this product.

我可以完全沉浸在工作中。

I can immerse myself in working in it.

是啊。

Yeah.

所以我很好奇，嗯...

So I was curious Mhmm.

你个人或职业上如何定义深度工作？你认为这在当下还重要吗？

How would you define personally or professionally define deep work, and do you think it matters these days?

让我们先从卡尔·纽波特的定义开始吧。

Well, let's start with the definition from Cal Newport.

他是一位作家。

He's an author.

他出版了一本名为《深度工作：在分心世界中专注成功的法则》的书。

He put a book out called Deep Work Rules for Focused Success in a Distracted World.

听起来像是我永远不会读的那种书。

Sounds like something I'll never read.

总之，他的观点是：在无干扰的专注状态下进行专业活动，将认知能力推向极限，这就是深度工作的纯粹定义。

Anyway, what he says is that professional activities performed in a state of distraction free concentration that push your cognitive capabilities to their limit is the pure definition of deep work.

这听起来很美。

That sounds beautiful.

确实如此。

It does.

听起来很有诗意，但在2025年似乎几乎不切实际，不是吗？

It sounds poetic, and it also sounds almost unrealistic in 2025, doesn't it?

考虑到许多人的工作并不局限于单一任务这一事实。

Considering the fact that many people with their jobs are not just assigned to one particular thing.

嗯。

Mhmm.

流水线工人可能只有一个任务，也许这只是个例子。

A production line worker has one task perhaps perhaps this is just an example.

一个任务，而且这个任务会不断重复。

One task and that task repeats itself.

重复上百万次。

A million times.

是的。

Yeah.

所以获得成就感的机会可能很容易定义，因为完成一个就接着做下一个，完成后再继续。

So the opportunity to feel productive might be really easily defined because finish one, move on to the next, finish that, move on to the next.

但在现代职场中，我认为人们总是同时参与许多不同的活动或项目。

But with work modern day workplaces, I think people have their, their toes or their fingers in many different activities or projects all the time.

也许这就是难以获得成就感的挑战所在——你不断为某件事做贡献，但那件事却在不断变化。

So maybe that's where the challenge of of feeling productive comes from is that you're constantly contributing to something, but that something constantly changes.

我认为这确实是个很好的观点，但与此同时，我觉得如果你问任何人，他们都会说怀念那种只专注于一件事的感觉。

I think that definitely is a good point, But at the same time, I think if you ask anybody, they would say they miss the feeling of working on or concentrating on only one thing.

他们怀念不被干扰的状态——有时可能是当天突如其来的任务，有时可能是自己忍不住开始刷微信朋友圈或上网看短视频。

They miss being able to being not disrupted by maybe sometimes that is a sudden assignment that they didn't anticipate for the day, but maybe sometimes it's their their very own urgent to start browsing the WeChat moment or looking at or watching short videos on the Internet.

我认为这些都是不同的干扰因素，但它们确实都存在。

I think these are different distractions, but they all exist.

还有一种可能是，工作时感觉自己做了很多事，但过段时间又开始觉得自己其实效率不高，因为无法完成已经开始的任务。

And another possibility is that while you're working, you feel like you're doing a lot of things, but after a while, you started to feel that you're not productive in the sense that you cannot finish the things that you started.

嗯。

Mhmm.

那么为了避免后期陷入这种状况，有没有什么方法能帮助我们及早发现可能正在丧失深度工作能力的迹象呢？

So for for the purpose of not being lately diagnosed with this situation, is there anything that can help us to, you know, find the early signs that maybe we are losing our deep work ability?

也许我们表现得不如预期或目标？

Maybe we're, you know, not doing as well as we anticipated or aimed at?

其实有很多征兆。

Well, there are many signs.

第一，如果你发现自己总是分心。

Number one, if you find yourself constantly distracted.

比如以我为例，经常在电脑前工作时，我会突然自问：我在干什么？

For instance, in my case, often when I'm working on my desktop, I sometimes ask myself that question, what am I doing?

我到底在忙什么？

What am I up to?

我是说，这是一个明显的

I mean, is a clear

损失。

loss.

我认为这是两回事。

I think it's a different thing.

嗯。

Mhmm.

那是个更严重的问题。

That's an even more serious problem.

所以这是其中一个信号。

So that's one of the signals.

另一种表现是只能产生非常浅显或表面的想法，这意味着你无法或没有花足够时间去思考某个可能需要更深层次思考的问题。

Another way is to only having very simplistic or superficial thoughts, meaning you can't afford or you haven't spent enough time thinking about a question that might require you some even deeper level of thinking.

想象一下你向老板汇报某个情况时，突然被他或她就问题的某个具体方面问住了——这本是你应该考虑到并准备好解决方案的，但你却疏忽了。

Imagine yourself reporting to your boss about a situation, and all of a sudden, you get cornered by him or her about a very specific aspect of the issue, something that you should have thought about and you should have considered and and come up with a solution for, but then you just missed it.

你根本没有花时间去思考这个问题。

You didn't think you didn't spend time about it.

它被遗漏了。

It fell through the cracks.

还有一个信号是过度沉迷于实时反馈。

So another one more signal is to be constantly obsessed with giving real time feedback.

举个例子，比如杂务一只需要五分钟的注意力。

There are examples, for instance, a chore one requires only five minutes of attention.

而杂务二则需要二十分钟的深度研究和思考。

Chore two requires, for instance, twenty minutes of deep research and thinking.

如果你像我一样容易，你知道，同时处理多项任务

And if you were like me who is prone to, you know, cross

把所有事情一起开始吗？

Starting everything together?

从待办事项清单上划掉一些事情。

To cross off something from the to do list.

你享受这个过程，完成事项，把事情搞定。

You enjoy doing that, removing things, getting things done.

这会让你感觉很有成效，不是吗？

That makes you feel productive, doesn't it?

对。

Right.

确实如此。

It does.

但问题在于，这可能并不是最高效的做法。

But then the thing is that may not be the most productive thing.

这是你能为所聘职位做出的最大贡献。

The the greatest contribution you can make to the job that you are hired for.

有一项研究，具体数字我记不清了，但答案大约是二十分钟。

There was a study, I forget the specific number, but it was around twenty minutes was the answer.

问题是，人们在被打断工作或项目后，需要多长时间才能重新集中注意力？

The question was, how long does it take people to refocus after they're distracted from a work a piece of work or a project that they're working on?

再次强调，答案大约是二十分钟。

And the and again, the answer was about twenty minutes.

这意味着，如果我在处理某项工作，然后赖明给我发短信，我不得不停下来回复，或者洪林过来找我简短聊几句，可能只花三十秒，但要重新进入深度工作状态需要二十分钟。

And and what that means is, if I'm working on something and then Lai Ming sends me a text message, and I I have to stop and I have to reply to that or, you know, Hong Lin comes over to my desk and wants to have a brief chat about something, might take only thirty seconds, but to get back to that deep work takes twenty minutes of time.

你觉得这个结果令人惊讶吗？

Is that surprising to you that

是的。

Yes.

你觉得你能立刻恢复吗？

Think you could just?

你是否觉得当你分心时——这种事几乎每天都会发生。

So do you feel like when you get distracted from something which happens almost all day every day.

对吧？

Right?

尤其是对你们两位来说，有这么多人依赖你们。

Particularly with for you two, so many people rely on both of you.

你觉得你能毫无障碍地以百分之百的专注力回到手头任务上吗？

Do you feel you can return to the task at hand with 100% focus, no problem?

不能。

No.

这正是我焦虑和挫败感的主要来源之一。

And that's one of the major source of my anxiety and for sense of frustration.

哦，我的答案是这取决于你专注的任务性质。

Oh, my answer is it depends on the nature of the task that you're focusing on.

如果是简单的任务，只需要某种程度的专注，或者不需要你进入心流状态，那就没问题。

If it's the simple task that only requires the kind of concentration or it doesn't need you to be in the flow, you know, the flow, then it's fine.

但我同意。

But I agree.

对于那些需要你进入特定思维状态的工作，必须调动你脑海中的所有资源，将它们提取出来，这确实需要更长时间。

For the kind of work that requires you to be in the state of mind to be able to get all the resources in your back, in the back of your head, you have to pull them out, then it takes longer.

是的。

Yeah.

但与此同时，我们也有理论认为，25分钟的专注冲刺加上短暂休息被认为是最有效率的方式。

But at the same time, we also have theory that twenty five minutes focus sprints with short breaks is considered something that is most productive.

意思是如果你所做的事情可以分解成相对较短的时段，那么25分钟的深度专注会是一个理想的时长，这对你的认知能力有益，这也是为什么人们鼓励他人为每项任务安排25分钟。

Meaning that if you if the things that you're doing is possible to be broken into relatively shorter periods, then twenty five minutes of real deep focus would be a ideal period that is good for your cognitive ability, and that is why people are also encouraging others to take twenty five minutes for each task.

如果某项任务需要你花费30或35分钟，试着把它压缩到25分钟，然后短暂休息后再开始下一项。

If the task requires you to, I don't know, spend thirty or thirty five minutes, try to shorten it into twenty five minutes and then take a short break and start another one.

所以这个方法被推荐给人们，用来解决'无法再深度工作'的问题。

So this has been a method recommended to people to, you know, solve the can no longer do deep work problem.

嗯。

Mhmm.

还有其他建议吗？

Any other suggestions?

看来我们正在转向解决问题的方案讨论。

I see we we are moving on to the area of solutions to the problems.

对吧？

Right?

我们正面临的。

We're facing.

我解决问题的方案之一是使用思维导图等工具来引导思考。

One of my solutions to the problems is to use tools such as Mind Map to guide thinking.

我的意思是，多年来这对我来说是一个非常有效的工具。每当事情堆积如山，或者我发现自己偏离主题时，一支笔、一张纸和一张思维导图确实能帮助我理清脑海中纷繁复杂的思绪。

I mean, this has been a very effective tool for me for many years, and I found that whenever things pile up and whenever I find myself straying onto other issues, having a pen and a piece of paper and a mind map really helps me navigate the myriad of thoughts that I have to entertain in my tiny little brain.

这真的很有帮助。

That really helps.

我有一个建议要给史蒂夫。

I have one for Steve.

你应该挂个'深度工作中，除非大楼倒塌或起火否则勿扰'的牌子。

That is you should put up a sign of deep working do not interrupt unless the building is collapsing or there's a fire breaking out.

所以在你工作时我不会打扰你

So I won't talk to you while you're

别往心里去，不是针对你。

take that personally before No.

不是的。

No.

那只是

That was simply

举个例子。

an example.

不。

No.

不是。

No.

不。

No.

我只是想说每个人都应该有这样一个标识，因为别人不知道你是否正在专注于某件重要的事情。嗯。

I was just saying everybody should have a sign like that because other people do not know whether or not you're focusing on something that important Mhmm.

而那需要那种程度的专注力。

And that requires that level of concentration.

说'没人一直跟我说话'不公平，但因为我们所处的环境而牺牲你的专注力也不公平。

It's not fair to say nobody talks to me all the time, but it's also not fair to sacrificing your concentration level because of the environment we're working in.

所以挂个标识吧。

So have a sign.

我很容易分心，但我不确定这是否是个严重问题。

I am so easily distracted that it but I'm not sure if I see it as a serious issue.

我理解，我是说思维导图工具以及保持自我良好组织的理念。

I understand, I mean, the mind mapping tool and the the idea behind really keeping yourself well organized.

但我也觉得容易忘事然后稍后才想起来这件事莫名有种迷人又浪漫的感觉。

But I also find somehow it charming or romantic to have things slip your mind easily and then remember a little bit later.

我在家开始洗碗时，会突然注意到，哦，植物需要浇水了。

I'll start washing the dishes at home and then I'll notice, oh, the plants need water.

然后我就会放下碗碟，跑去给植物浇水。

And I'll just leave the dishes and go and water the plants.

浇花的时候，我又会看到灰尘，想着真该吸尘了。

And while I'm watering the plants, I'll see some dust and oh, I really should vacuum.

于是又停下浇花——就像之前没洗完的碗一样，这件事也没完成。

I'll stop watering the plants which is also not completed just like the dishes weren't completed.

我也经常这样。

I do that too.

不过最终，我还是会回到洗碗这件事上把它完成。

And then, yeah, it's a cycle, but eventually, I'll circle back to the dishes and finish them.

这就是我偶尔的工作方式，虽然不是每次都这样。

And that's kind of the way I work sometimes, not all the time, but on occasion.

我会开始做一件事，然后有点忘记它又去做别的，我想很多人可能都是这样。

I'll start something and then I'll kind of forget about it and start something else, and I think this is probably true for many people.

如今我们确实已经适应了这种处理事务的方式，而且我不完全确定这有什么问题。

We've just really kind of adjusted to that style of of getting things done these days, and I'm not entirely sure there's anything wrong with it.

是啊。

Yeah.

我觉得这个问题应该在对话一开始就问的，不过现在问也不迟。

I think I should ask this question at the very beginning of the conversation, but let's do it now.

就是说，你认为无法真正'集中精力'做一件事、进行所谓的'深度工作'，这一定是件坏事吗？

That is, do you think it's necessarily a bad thing that you cannot really quote unquote concentrate on one thing and do quote unquote deep work?

在当今这个时代，这种能力真的那么必要吗？

Is that ability that necessary in today's day and age?

这取决于你从事的工作。如果我们只是讨论制作节目、录制内容以及取悦观众的话，我认为创意行业的人可以稍微随性地安排工作。

It really depends on what you do because if we are only talking about making shows, recording them, and impressing and entertaining our audience, then I think people in the creative industry, they can afford to be a little scattershot, in the way they organize their stuff.

但如果你是在团队中工作，下游还有人在等你的回复，那么

But if you are working with a team and there are people down the stream waiting for you to respond, then

比如外科医生？

Like a surgeon?

我可不想我的外科医生容易分心。

I don't want my surgeon to be easily distracted.

是啊。

Yeah.

没错。

Yeah.

你肯定不希望助手走神，然后还得等别人递手术刀。

You don't want your assistant to wander off and and then having to wait for somebody else to pass you the scalper.

对。

Yeah.

正是如此。

Exactly.

飞行员也是。

Pilot.

嗯。

Yeah.

请专注于任务。

Stay on task, please.

嗯，经过今天的交谈后，我觉得这并不那么重要。

Well, I think after our conversation today, my feeling is that it's not that important.

如果这没有困扰到你，或许对你来说就没什么问题。

If it does not bother you, maybe it's fine for you.

或者如果这不会困扰到那些依赖你完成特定事项的人。

Or if it doesn't bother anyone else that depends on you to get certain things done.

是啊。

Yeah.

当然。

Of course.

是的。

Yes.

但如果它确实让你有点困扰，你可以尝试的另一件事，这不一定仅限于工作。

But if it does bother you a little bit, another thing that you can try, that is not necessarily only for your work.

这是我最近听到的一个建议，我试着实践了一下，确实对我有点帮助。

It's an advice that I heard recently, and I was applying it, and it helped me a little.

希望持续坚持这样做能对我大有裨益。

Hopefully, doing constantly continue doing it would help me a lot.

与其在工作中尝试各种方法，不如让自己处于相对隔离的环境——戴上耳机、挂上'勿扰'标识、全神贯注地工作。

That is instead of trying all these methods on your work, that is to put yourself in a relatively isolated environment, putting your headset on and, put up the sign of don't talk to me, talk to the hand, and concentrating on your work.

另一个方法是把手机放在别处，找个房间与你认为值得学习的人进行深入长谈。

Another thing you can do is leave your cell phone at another place and go to a room and have a deep long conversation with someone that you think are worth learning from.

这种不受手机短信和外界干扰的面对面交谈，能让你专注询问想了解的内容，从而进入深度思考状态——不仅专注于对话，更重要的是梳理自己的思绪。

That deep conversation without the interruption from any cell phone messages and any text messages, any outside distractions, and just having a face to face conversation with this one person and ask about the things you wanna know about this person, that would help you find that state of deep thinking of really concentrating on not only the conversation, but more importantly your thoughts.

嗯。

Yeah.

我觉得还有个好建议：如果你总觉得自己特别容易分心，任务切换频繁，但更希望能专注一件事的话——

I think another good tip, if you are that person who feels like, I get distracted too easily and I go from task to task, I'd rather stay on one.

可以列个清单，把事情按优先级排序。

Make a list and prioritize things.

你需要完成的最重要的事情是什么？

What's the most important thing that you need to get done?

这是清单上的第一项。

That's number one on the list.

23456是最不重要的。

23456 being the least important.

在第一项完成前不要开始第二项。

Don't move on to number two until number one is done.

在第二项完成前不要开始第三项。

Don't go to number three until number two is done.

经过足够次数的练习，这可能会成为你日常习惯的一部分。

Practice that enough times and maybe that'll just become a regular part of your routine.

是的。

Yes.

请告诉我们这些建议是否对你有帮助，也请告诉我们无法像以前那样专注或进行深度工作是否困扰你。

Let us know whether or not these tips help you and let us know whether it bothers you to not being able to focus or to do deep work as well as you did previously.

今天的圆桌讨论到此结束。

That brings us to the end of today's roundtable.

非常感谢大家的收听。

Thank you so much for listening.

如有任何想对我们说的话，请留言或发送邮件至roundtablepodcast@qq.com。

Anything you wanna tell us, please leave a comment or send us a email to roundtablepodcast@qq.com.

我是Yoho Lin，与Steve和Lai Ming一起。

I'm Yoho Lin with Steve and Lai Ming.

感谢您的收听。

Thank you for listening.

再见。

Bye bye.