当收据变身积分卡

讨论让世界持续运转。

Discussion keeps the world turning.

这是圆桌论坛。

This is Roundtable.

您正在收听圆桌论坛。

You're tuned in to Roundtable.

今天我和玉山、Fei Fei一起主持。

I'm Steve Hatherley today with Yushan and Fei Fei.

接下来。

Coming up.

但在广告之前，我们讨论了城市采矿，以及我们如何处理建筑材料，如何重复利用它们，从而更好地保护环境。

Well, before the break, we talked about urban mining and what we can do with construction materials and how we can reuse them and make it better for our environment.

但这次，话题会更个人化一些。

But this time, it's a little bit more personal.

如果每一次绿色消费都能为你积累积分，而且可以轻松使用，会怎样？

What if every green purchase you made earned you points that you could easily use?

一项重大的国家级新计划认为，积分抵扣系统是推动大众绿色消费的关键。

A major new national plan is betting that a points for discount system is the key to unlocking mass green consumption.

我们会深入探讨这一点。

We'll get into that.

然后，你在办公室的位置至关重要，因为你的新陈代谢有一个沉默的伙伴，那就是日光。

And then where you sit in your office absolutely matters because your metabolism has a silent partner and that partner is daylight.

一项令人惊讶的研究表明，自然光能精细调节你身体的能量使用，而人工照明则会打乱这种节奏。

A surprising study shows us how natural light fine tunes your body's energy use while artificial lighting throws it off.

重新设计我们这些缺乏阳光的办公室，会不会成为提升生产力、健康，甚至可能拯救地球的下一个重大突破？

Could redesigning our sun deprived offices be the next big win for productivity, health, and maybe even the planet?

我们的播客听众，就是你们。

Our podcast listeners, that's you.

你们可以在苹果播客上搜索“Roundtable China”找到我们，我们总是这么说。

You can find us at Roundtable China on Apple Podcasts, and we always say it.

我们非常期待听到你们的声音。

We love to hear your voice.

所以，请将你们的语音留言发送给我们，分享你们对我们节目中讨论内容的任何想法。

So send your voice notes our way with any of the thoughts that you might have on the things that we discuss here on the show.

Roundtable 播客，邮箱是 qq.com。

Roundtable podcast at qq.com.

再次提醒，Roundtable 播客，邮箱是 qq.com。

Once again, roundtable podcast at qq.com.

那么，如果购买绿色或环保产品并不意味着花更多钱，反而能帮你省钱呢？

And now, what if buying green or eco friendly products didn't mean spending more, but could actually save you money?

听起来很有趣。

Sounds interesting.

这种消费经济的变化，正是国家促进绿色消费行动计划的核心。

Well, this change in consumer economics is at the heart of the national action plan to promote green consumption.

该计划几天前刚刚发布。

It came out just days ago.

这项计划超越了绿色生活和道德选择，转向了纯粹的财务智慧。

The plan moves beyond green living and beyond the choice of morality to just a financially smart one.

目前已有涵盖七个关键领域的20项政策举措，这个话题我们几乎可以讨论上好几个小时。

20 policy measures spanning seven key areas are now in place, and it's a topic that we could probably discuss for hours.

但今天，我们将聚焦于该计划中旨在全国推广的一个组成部分——绿色消费积分系统。

But today, we're going to focus on one piece of the puzzle, the green consumption point system that the plan aims to roll out nationwide.

在中国全国范围内推行任何新事物都始终是一项挑战。

Rolling anything out nationwide here in China is always a challenge to do.

我们也会发现这在这里同样具有挑战性，但这是一个非常雄心勃勃且非常酷的目标。

We're gonna find that it's a challenge here as well, but it's a very ambitious goal and a very cool goal at that.

但让我们先从绿色消费积分系统开始。

But let's start with the green consumption point system.

它是什么？它是如何运作的？

What is it and how does it work?

所以，是的，整个系统是一种机制，旨在将环境保护的抽象价值转化为普通消费者可变现的有形资产。

So, yeah, this whole system is a mechanism that's designed to transform the abstract value of environmental protection into something tangible that's liquid assets for everyday individual consumers.

我真的很喜欢这个想法，即我们所做的，无论是大是小，都是为让世界变得更绿色做出的一点贡献。

So I really like this idea of, you know, what we do is is just minor, big or small contribution on just making the world a bit greener.

但这个系统给予用户的奖励是以积分或点数的形式，这是可以实实在在感受到的，比如获得一盒鸡蛋，或者获得下次超市购物的优惠券。

But what they this whole system is granting is they give you rewards in the form of credits or points, and and that's something tangible, like getting a pack of eggs or getting a coupon for your next supermarket shopping.

所以这是一种在个人层面上，用小积分换取小商品的交易方式，而这一机制由商务部主导，正在推动建立一个线上线下通用的兑换系统。

So that's like small thing small trading for for goods for on an individual base, and that's supported by the Ministry of Commerce who is now spearheading the development of an online and offline universal redemption system.

这解决了以往试点项目分散的问题，同时也允许用户在一种场景下获得的积分（如乘坐公共交通）在另一种场景中使用，比如去超市兑换优惠券等。

So this addresses the fragmentation of previous pilot programs and also allow points earned in one context such as using public transit to be used for discounts in another, like going to the supermarket and get vouchers, etcetera.

实际上，这在中国一些地区已经发生了。

And that's actually been happening in some parts of China already.

是的。

Yeah.

有一段时间了。

For a while.

是的。

Yeah.

例如，在武汉市，他们有一个叫做‘武碳江湖’的平台。

For example, in the city of Wuhan, they have platforms like called Wu Tan, Jianghu.

这名字真酷。

That's a very cool name.

他们基本上利用数字技术追踪11种行为，比如乘坐地铁或骑自行车。

They basically use digital technology to track 11 types of behavior like taking the subway or cycling.

他们还与许多公司合作，例如超市、公园和便利店，消费者和居民可以使用他们获得的积分在平台上兑换商品。

And they are also collaborating with a lot of companies when it comes to, for example, supermarkets, I will say, parks and convenience stores where consumers and residents can use the points that they get and to exchange for things on that platform.

截至一月，武汉碳普惠平台的用户数量已超过200万，累计记录的减排行为超过2000万次。

And as of January, the number of platform users on Wu Tang, Jiangsu has exceeded 2,000,000, and more than 20,000,000 emission reduction actions has been recorded in total.

这意味着碳排放减少了超过4万吨。

That means a carbon emission reduction surpassing 40,000 tons.

那么在全国范围内，还有哪些例子呢？

So across the country then, what would be some examples?

武汉是一个例子，但这只是来自一个特定城市。

Wuhan would be would be one example, but that's just from one particular city.

还有其他城市或项目推出了类似系统吗？

Are there other cities or other programs that have launched these similar a similar style of of system?

有趣的是，例如在浙江省宁波市的一个村庄里，村民们可以持有被称为‘绿色存折’的卡片，如果他们正确分类家庭垃圾或参与社区志愿服务，就能获得积分。

Very interestingly, for example, in a village in Ningbo, Zhejiang Province, the villagers themselves can carry what's called a green pass book, where they if they sort household waste properly or they volunteer in the community, they can earn points.

这些积分可以兑换日常用品，比如大米、醋、肥皂，甚至社区内的服务，如家庭医生上门或健康检查。

And these points can be exchanged for everyday items like rice, vinegar, soap, or even services in the community like a family doctor visits or health checkups.

这非常实际，我认为对村民来说也非常有吸引力。

It's very tangible and very, I think, attractive for villagers.

你知道，我可以兑换一些肥皂。

You know, I can exchange for some soap.

此外，在四川省泸州市还有一些其他项目。

And, also, there are some other programs in in a city called Luzhou in Sichuan province.

他们还有一个名为‘绿色萌芽积分’的项目，汇集了60多家本地企业、七所大学以及若干其他社会组织。

They also has a have a project called green sprout points, and that brought together more than 60 local companies, seven universities, and several other social organizations.

已有超过7万人参与，每天有超过2000名活跃用户。

And over 70,000 people have taken part with more than 2,000 active users every day.

因此，已有数百万积分被兑换。

So millions of points have been redeemed.

这转化为可衡量的实际成果，意味着减少了七万三千七百吨碳排放。

That's translated into real action measurable results, meaning more than seventy thirty seven tons of carbon emission reduced.

是的。

Yeah.

还有一个叫蚂蚁森林的游戏。

And there's also a game called Ants Forest.

对吧？

Right?

这是阿里巴巴做的。

This is done by Alibaba.

这个项目已经存在一段时间了。

This has also been around for a while.

这个游戏是怎么运作的？

How does that game work?

这是一种很酷的方式，可以激励人们为地球做正确的事。

This is kind of a cool way to incentivize people to do the right thing for the planet.

是的。

Yeah.

蚂蚁森林的主要目的是鼓励环保习惯，并对抗荒漠化，这是他们深深致力于的事业。

The main purpose of this Ant Forest, thing is about encouraging eco friendly habits and also fight desertification, which is something that they deeply are rooted for.

所以，每当你在日常生活中做一件环保的事，比如在线缴费而不是用纸张，应用就会注意到。

So whenever you do something green in your daily life, like paying a bill online instead of using paper, the app will notice.

然后它会给你一种所谓的‘绿色能量’，这些能量会在应用中累积，让你在手机上种一棵可爱的小虚拟树，最终这棵树会变成现实中的一棵真树，比如在蚂蚁森林每年试图植树的荒漠化地区。

And then it will give you this green energy, quote unquote, green energy bubble that accumulates in your app and lets you grow a cute little virtual tree on your phone that can eventually turn out to be a real tree somewhere, say, example, in the in the desertification affected area that the the ant forest is, you know, trying to plant on an on an annual basis.

他们实际上会根据账户名称来命名那棵树。

They actually will name that tree based on the account's name.

对吧？

Right?

他们会用你的名字来命名。

They they name it after you.

他们会用你的名字来命名。

They name it after you.

他们有摄像头。

They have cameras.

是的。

Yeah.

所以你可以查看你的树，我想我有三棵树。

So you can check on your tree in the middle of I think I have three trees.

一棵在赣州，一棵在蒙古，还有一棵在蒙古。

One in Ganzhou, one in Mongolia in a one in Mongolia.

第三棵我记不清了，但我可以通过在线视频平台查看它们。

And I don't remember the third one, but I can check on them through online, I don't know, video platform.

这个游戏还不错。

Does this game so okay.

通过这个游戏，我可以以我的名字种一棵树，这很棒，但这并不能让我赚到钱，听起来我好像很自私。

So through that game, I can have a tree planted in my name, which is a wonderful thing, but that doesn't put anything back in my pocket, which makes me sound really terrible.

但你明白我的意思吗？

But do you see do you see my point here?

以前，我个人觉得这更像是一种福利机制，旨在帮助种植更多树木。

Previously, I see it me personally, I see it as more of a welfare helping to grow more trees kind of mechanism.

但现在，它已涵盖五大类别的数十种场景，包括绿色出行、减少纸张和塑料使用、回收利用以及提高能源效率。

But now, it includes dozens of scenarios across five major categories, from green and reduced travel to cutting paper and plastic use, recycling, and improving energy efficiency.

因此，蚂蚁森林的服务范围也从单纯的植树福利扩展到了更多方面。

So so Ant Forest is also expanding their service coverage from just welfare growing trees to many more aspects.

甚至已扩展到自然保护区和海洋保护等领域。

And it has even expanded into areas like nature reserves and marine protection.

更创新的是，这些低碳行为如何与金融相结合，

So what's more innovation innovative is how these low carbon actions are tied to finance,

我觉得。

I think.

我之所以说‘这能给我带来什么回报’，是因为这个理念的核心就是：要让人们为环境做点好事，最好的方式就是给他们一些回报。

Well, the reason I said, does it put anything back in my pocket is because that's kind of the theme of this of this concept is that to get people to do something good for the environment, the best way to do that is to give something back to them.

当我们之前谈到村庄和举例的时候

Now when we talked about the villages and the examples that we gave before

在武汉。

In Wuhan.

是的。

Yeah.

在武汉和宁波，这些措施都是在城市或村庄内部实施的。

In Wuhan and in in Ningbo, those are done within within the city or within the village itself.

将这种做法推广到全国层面会面临诸多困难。

Scaling up to doing it on a national level presents a number of difficulties.

这该如何实现呢？

How does that get done?

我们之前提到的大多数项目或城市试点都只在非常小的区域内进行。

Well, most of the programs or city pilot projects that we talked about are just within a very small scale area.

这意味着，政府方面，我认为其中一个关键障碍是，这套系统需要一个机制来收集你的数据，测量你的积分，然后兑换你想要的礼品或服务。

That means that also means that the gov well, I think one of the key sticking point is that a lot of this system because you need a system to collect your data, you know, measure your points, and then you redeem whatever gifts or services you want.

而这依赖于某家公司。

And that rely on a company, some sort of a company.

不同的公司会有不同的系统、不同的方法，尤其是在碳核算方法上。

And different companies would have different systems, different methods, different especially when it comes to carbon accounting methods.

这意味着，有时会非常令人困惑。

And meaning that, it can be very confusing sometimes.

例如，如果你是武汉的市民或居民，乘坐地铁。

For example, if you are a citizen, if you are a resident in Wuhan, you take a subway ride.

你可以在蚂蚁森林获得一些积分。

You can earn some points on Ant Forest.

你也可以在武汉、江苏获得一些积分。

You can also earn the some points on Wuhan, Jiangsu.

有些城市通过同一趟行程提供平台。

There are cities, some platform through the same ride.

你双重获利了。

You're double earning.

是的。

Yeah.

你这是双重获利。

You are double earning.

对。

Yeah.

而且，谁来决定我这次地铁出行能获得多少积分呢？

And also, who has the say over, you know, how much point how many points I get from this subway ride?

他们自己制定系统吗？

Do they come up with their own systems?

对。

Yeah.

对于蚂蚁森林来说，我认为这个平台给5克积分，但为什么是5呢？

For Forest, I think, is about five grams of points on that platform, but why five?

是的。

So yeah.

所以这就像是每个平台都是自己的商店，各自有自己的一套忠诚度计划。

So it's like it's kind of like each platform is its own store and they each have their own loyalty program.

所以如果你手机上有多个应用，你可以用多个应用来完成同一趟行程。

So if you have multiple apps on your phone, you can use multiple apps for the same trip.

我想这其中的一个问题就是会虚报数字。

And I guess one of the problems with that is it's going to inflate the numbers.

嗯哼。

Mhmm.

不是吗？

Isn't it?

此外，每家公司都用自己的方法来计算一个行为值多少积分或碳点，这也可能造成不一致的模式。

Also, with each company using its own method to calculate how many points or carbon points an action is worth, that might create an inconsistent, pattern as well.

因为如果一个应用中，骑行一公里值1点积分。

Because if one app, if you bike one kilometer and that's worth one point.

但在另一个应用中，骑行一公里却值10点积分。

But on another app, if you bike one kilometer, that's worth 10 points.

这里也存在不一致性。

There's inconsistencies there too.

而且，竞争会导致更多公司提高积分，以此吸引你留在他们的平台上并保持活跃。

And also competition that more companies will just raise the points and sort of to attract you to to to perform on their stay active on their platform.

这有点像经济中的通货膨胀。

That kinda works like inflation in the economy.

是的。

Yeah.

而且，这也削弱了人们对整个系统的信任，因为你的环境影响并没有得到一致的衡量。

Well Well, it also weakens the trust in the whole system because it because your environmental impact isn't really consistent consistently measured.

是的。

Yeah.

因此，很难准确量化所采取行动及其有效性。

So it's hard to put a number on exactly what is being done and in terms of its effectiveness as well.

因此，在当前计划下，政府正试图支持行业协会，探索如何建立一个统一的绿色消费积分体系，使其既能适用于线上平台，也能适用于线下场景。

So that's why under the current plan, the government, we are actually trying to support the industry associations in exploring just how or in what ways there can be a unified green consumption point system that work works both for online platforms and offline.

零售商、电商平台和其他利益相关方都能被引导采用标准化的积分收集方式，这不仅有利于商业层面，也有利于普通民众的日常生活。

And retailers, ecommerce platforms, and other skateholders, these different parties can all be guided to standardized points collection and that not only benefit from the business side but also for just day to day individuals as well.

我们清楚地知道能获得多少积分，以及我们的信用额度可以按什么统一标准兑换成什么。

We have a clear clue on how many points we can get and then there's a unified line or price tag quote unquote for how many of our credit can be exchanged into what.

我认为，如果有一天这个计划能够实现，那将是个非常好的消息。

I think if that is to come to life one day, that's going to be a very good news.

而且，这个计划比目前蚂蚁森林或武汉的实际情况更加雄心勃勃。

And also, think the plan is more ambitious than what we see on the ground on Ant Forest or in Wuhan right now.

他们希望将绿色产品的购买也纳入其中。

They are hoping to include, like, purchases of green products.

比如，如果你购买环保胡萝卜，相比购买普通胡萝卜，可以获得一些积分。

Like, for example, if you buy eco friendly carrot, you can earn some points compared to buy a a regular carrot.

或者，如果你选择购买更环保的家用电器，或者参与以旧换新项目，如果能更妥善地分类处理废弃物，理论上也能获得一些积分。

Or if you choose to buy a greener home appliance appliance or or if you participate in the trade in programs, if you sort your ways to more properly, that can also mean that you can earn some point ideally, hopefully, can earn you some points on the system.

但问题在于，如何衡量这些行为。

But the thing is how to measure measure that.

还有透明度的问题。

Well, and also the transparency.

嗯。

Mhmm.

因为如果。

Because if okay.

我们以环保胡萝卜为例。

Let's use the eco friendly carrot for example.

如果农民或营销公司知道，嘿。

If a farmer knows or if a marketing company knows, hey.

如果我把环保标签贴在这个胡萝卜上，人们就会有动力购买环保胡萝卜，这会对我的胡萝卜生意有帮助。

If I slap eco friendly sticker on this carrot, then and people are incentivized to buy eco friendly carrots, then that's gonna help out my carrot business.

嗯。

Mhmm.

你明白我的意思吗？

Do do you see what I mean?

是的。

Yeah.

因此，对于产品本身，也需要有相应的问责机制，而他们正在解决这个问题。

So there needs to be accountability there too in terms of the products, and and they're tackling that.

这就是他们希望做到的。

That's what they hope to do.

绿色产品希望在可追溯性和认证信息方面做到透明，以确保它们确实如宣传的那样。

The green products, they want to them to be transparent in terms of their, traceability and their certification information to make sure that they are what they say they are.

否则，这可能会成为一个潜在的问题。

Because otherwise, that could be a a potential problem there.

我不清楚成本方面的情况。

I don't know in terms of cost.

我直到现在才想到这一点，但那些在售的产品。

I I didn't even consider this until right now, but the products that are for sale.

如果绿色产品比——我们再回到胡萝卜的例子——更贵的话。

If the green products are costing more than if the e we'll come back to the carat.

如果环保胡萝卜比非环保胡萝卜贵那么多的话。

If the eco carat is is that much more expensive than a non eco carat.

我不知道价格差异会是多少。

I don't know what the price difference there would be.

不过，这对消费者来说也值得考虑，不是吗？

That would be to to take it into consideration for consumers too, though, wouldn't it?

是的。

Yeah.

而且我认为，目前我们看到的大多数平台都是基于碳排放来计算的，比如你帮助减少了多少碳排放。

And also when it comes to I think right now, most of the platforms that we see are calculating based on carbon, like how many carbon that you helped reduced.

例如，我认为在一些平台上，五公斤可能意味着你节省了五克碳排放。

And for example, I think on some platforms, for five kilograms probably means you saved five grams of carbon.

但当我们回到胡萝卜时。

But when it comes to coming back to carrot.

购买环保胡萝卜与普通胡萝卜相比，我们到底在谈论多少碳排放呢？

Buying an eco friendly carrot comparing to a regular carrot, how many how many carbons that we are talking about.

是的。

Yeah.

有什么区别？

What's the difference?

是的。

Yeah.

这意味着你需要关注生产过程、使用的肥料、运输

That means you need to look at the production process, fertilizers used, transportation

对。

Right.

储存。

Storage.

我的意思是，这是一张非常复杂的图。

I mean, it's a very big map.

是的。

Yeah.

这意味着你需要收集这种胡萝卜从土壤中生长到端上餐桌每个环节的数据。

And that means you need to collect data on every step of this carrot from in the soil to your table.

那是

That's

真的。

true.

那么谁来做这件事呢？

So who is gonna do that?

谁有权利做这件事？

Who has the right to do that?

嗯，已经有计划了。

Well, there is a plan in place.

再说一遍，这叫做《2026年促进绿色消费国家行动方案》。

Again, it's called the 2026 national action plan to promote green consumption.

我一开始就已经提到了。

I mentioned it at the beginning.

它才刚刚出台几天。

It's only days old.

今年1月5日，商务部联合国家发展和改革委员会（国家规划部门）、生态环境部、中国人民银行等八个政府部门，发布了一项全国性行动计划，旨在促进绿色消费，涵盖七个不同领域共二十项具体措施。

It was January 5 when the Ministry of Commerce in collaboration with eight other government departments including the National Development and Reform Commission, that's the market planner, also the Ministry of Ecology and Environment and the People's Bank of China too, they released a nationwide action plan, Again, it's called to promote greener consumption, and there are 20 different measures across seven different areas.

是的。

Yeah.

核心目标是摆脱零散的环保行为，转向将低碳生活方式全面融入国家经济体系，例如在必需品供应方面优先保障绿色农产品和高能效家用电器的供应。

The core objectives is to just move away from isolated green acts and towards a comprehensive low carbon lifestyle integrated into the national economic fabric, and that includes, for example, supply of essential products where they prioritize the availability of green agricultural products and high energy efficiency home appliances.

这种情况已经出现了。

See that happening already.

我们已经有了能明确标示小型家用电器单位能耗等级的标签，这为消费者提供了清晰的信息。

We have that label indicating how what level your small home appliances is consuming energy on a unit base, and that's, like, clearly labeling things up for the consumers.

下一步，他们也将对农产品实施同样的做法。

And next step, they're going to do that for the agricultural products too.

没错。

Yep.

此外，在交通转型方面，政府通过激励措施推动新能源汽车购买，同时加强汽车产业链建设，并发展房车露营等创新出行场景。

And then there's the transportation transition where the NEVs purchase is also incentivized while strengthening the automotive industry chain and developing innovative travel scenarios such as RV camping.

嗯。

Mhmm.

房车露营。

RV camping.

这是个不错的起点。

That's a good place to start with.

开始。

Start with.

嗯。

Yeah.

也很有趣。

Also, are very interesting.

它们还涵盖了餐饮、住宿和家政服务。

They also cover catering, accommodation, and household services.

这意味着，你请来家里打扫的保洁人员也被纳入了这项计划，他们需要使用更可持续的清洁产品来完成工作。

Meaning, the cleaners that you call call into your homes are also covered in this plan that they need to use, for example, more sustainable more sustainable products in the cleaning job that they are hired to do.

而且它们还与其他事物相关，比如财政支持。

And they are also that is linked to other things like financial support.

这就是为什么中央银行参与其中的原因。

That's why the central bank is involved.

这是一个大动作。

This is a big one.

因此，该计划由非常积极的财政政策作为支撑。

So this plan is underpinned by really aggressive financial policies.

这就是正在发生的事情。

So this is what's happening.

因此，中国人民银行设立了5000亿元人民币的央行贷款工具，用于科技创新和技术升级。

So the People's Bank of China, they've set up a 500,000,000,000 yuan central bank lending facility for science and technology innovation and technological upgrading.

该工具将专门支持一些关键领域的大型设备更新。

This facility will specifically support large scale equipment renewal in in some key sectors.

它还将确保制造商拥有资金，向零碳生产线转型。

It will also ensure manufacturers have the capital to transition towards zero carbon production lines.

这真的很重要。

That's really important.

此外，该计划将扩大碳减排支持工具的覆盖范围。

Also, the plan will expand the coverage of the carbon emission reduction facility.

它将鼓励商业银行向绿色信贷评分较高的企业和个人提供更优惠的利率。

It will encourage commercial banks to provide more preferential interest rates to enterprises and individuals with high green credit scores.

所有这些都非常重要，因为它创造了公平的竞争环境。

Now all of this is really really important because it levels the playing field.

如果一家公司历史悠久、成熟且成功，它可能比那些未在预算中规划此事的初创企业更容易实现转型。

If a company is well established, it's been around for a long time, successful, it might have the capital to transition a lot easier than perhaps a start up who hadn't planned this for this in in their budget.

因此，它在财务上为各公司平衡了负担。

So it it levels things out financially for for the companies.

它也激励它们迈出这一步。

It incentivizes them to make this step too.

总的来说，该计划旨在重塑需求端，推动社会向更绿色的实践转型。

And, basically, the plan is about basically reshaping the demand side when it comes to trying to push the society going to greener practices.

他们正在奖励消费者选择可持续产品。

They are rewarding consumers to for choosing sustainable products.

然后，制造商、生产者和供应商也会更倾向于采用更可持续的方法。

And then manufacturers and producers and suppliers will also be inclined to choose the more sustainable methods.

这与过去的方式不同，你知道，我会提高对企业和工厂的要求。

It's it's different from the old ways of, you know, I'm gonna raise the bar for companies and factories.

如果你不遵守，我就惩罚你。

If you don't follow, I'm gonna punish you.

我认为这种方式比惩罚更积极。

I think this way is taking a more positive route compared to punishment.

是的。

Yeah.

奖励积极行为，没错。

Rewarding positive behavior Yeah.

而不是惩罚消极行为。

As opposed to punishing negative ones.

是的。

Yeah.

没错。

Exactly.

这就像育儿一样。

It's like parenting

差不多。

almost.

好的育儿方式。

Good parenting.

我想回到我们自身的话题，因为我觉得很清楚，是的，完成这件事并将其推广到国家层面会有点复杂，但绝对值得，因为当在小规模上实施时，由于平台数量有限，更容易操作，嗯。

I wanna go back to us now because I think it's quite clear that, yes, getting this done, scaling this up to do it on a national level is is going to be a little bit complicated, but it's definitely worth it because, when things are done on a smaller scale, it's easier to do because you have a limited number perhaps of platforms Mhmm.

运行这些项目。

Running these programs.

在全国范围内实施时，你会有多个平台相互竞争，但就是这样。

Doing it nationally, you have multiple platforms that are kind of competing against each other, but it's it.

从商业角度来看，我们也了解到，商业层面存在一些激励措施。

So from a business point of view, we learned as well that there are incentives in place from business side of things.

那对我们来说呢？

What about for us?

我认为这几乎是最重要的观点，也许我们可以回到武汉，专注于一个具体的城市。

And I think this is almost the important, the most important point because and maybe we can go back to Wuhan just to focus on one specific city.

我说这是最重要的原因在于，我们并不是试图说服那些每天已经骑车的人继续骑车。

The reason I say it's the most most important thing is for is for us is because we're not trying to convince people who already cycle every day to continue cycling.

他们已经在做了。

They're already doing it.

对吧？

Right?

我们在这里试图做的是，把不骑车的人变成骑车的人，把不坐地铁的人变成坐地铁的人。

What we're trying to do here is we're trying to flip the non cyclers into cyclers, the non subway riders into subway riders.

这就需要改变生活方式。

Now that requires lifestyle change.

这非常困难。

That's very difficult.

如果你像我一样，我喜欢自己的习惯。

If you're like me, I like my habits.

所以让人们改变他们的日常习惯是非常具有挑战性的。

So getting people to change their routine is a very, very challenging thing to do.

让我们回到武汉。

Let's go back to Wuhan.

武汉的人口是多少？

What's the population of Wuhan?

这个城市有超过三千万人居住。

There's more than 30,000,000 people living in the city.

你提到有多少人参与了那里的项目？

And how many people did you say were involved in the program there?

叫做江湖。

Called Jianghu.

该平台有超过两百万用户。

They have more than 2,000,000 users on that platform.

这约占人口的15%。

That's about 15% of the population.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

数量很多，但我认为还能做得更多。

It's a lot, but still can do more, I guess.

嗯。

Mhmm.

因为我认为，在节目播出前，我们仔细检查了该平台上如何兑换积分的具体方式。

Because I think on that platform, we checked very carefully before the show on how exactly you can redeem on that platform.

如果你乘坐公交车出行，就能减少超过200克的碳排放。

If you take a bus trip, that earns you more than 200 grams of carbon emission reductions.

而乘坐地铁每行驶一公里可获得近80克减排量。

And each kilometer traveled by by subway earns you close to 80 grams.

而每骑行一公里可获得超过90克减排量。

And each kilometer you cycled earn you more than 90 grams.

这些积分会自动计入你在该平台的个人碳账户。

And these credits points are automatically credit to your personal carbon account on that platform.

随着时间的推移，你可以兑换出租车券、购物优惠券等奖励。

And over time, you can redeem for things like taxi voucher, shopping coupons.

我觉得还有公园门票或者超市里的鸡蛋之类的票券。是的。

I think there are also tickets for parks or eggs in a supermarket Yeah.

便利店里的三明治。

A sandwich in a convenience store.

但这就是我想知道的。

But this is what I wanna know.

那么我需要多少碳积分才能兑换鸡蛋呢？

So how many how many carbon points do I need for eggs?

你明白我的意思吗？

Do do you know what I mean?

因为这就是人们想知道的。

Like this because this is what people wanna know.

确实如此。

Indeed.

这能带来实质性的改变吗？

Is it enough to make a difference?

六颗鸡蛋大约需要5000积分。

It's about 5,000 points for six eggs.

这意味着你需要乘坐公交车上下班12天。

That means twelve days of workday commutes on your bus.

有一位参与者，是吴塘镇低碳生活方式的积极实践者，他说，我曾经用20000克碳减排积分兑换了一瓶葡萄酒，又用3000克兑换了一张超市五折优惠券。

So there is one participant, active practitioner of this low carbon lifestyle of Wu Tang Zhenhu, and he said, I once used 20,000 grams of carbon reduction credits to redeem a bottle of wine and 3,000 grams to redeem a 50% off supermarket coupon.

这就是这些积分如何兑换成实际商品的方式。

So that's how these credits can be redeemed into tangible goods.

同时，这些积分还可以用来支付银行贷款或房贷。

And then in the meantime, it can also fit for money to pay for your bank loans or mortgage.

从三月开始，武塘江与中国民生银行合作，将碳减排与银行贷款利率挂钩。

So that's starting from March where Wu Tang, Jiang, who actually partnered with China Minsheng Bank to link carbon emission reductions with bank loan interest.

该计划将持续到十二月。

So the program runs through December.

根据这一方案，居民可以兑换利率优惠，每减少一千克碳排放可抵扣2元。

And under under that scheme, residents can redeem interest rebates as at a rate of a thousand grams of carbon reduction equals 2 yuan.

我听说有人用几千克、甚至一大笔积分，一次性减少了90元的贷款利息。

I heard somebody used a few thousand or a few well, well, huge bunch of bunch of her credits to reduce 90 yuan in one go of reducing the bank loan interest.

嗯。

Mhmm.

这就是如何将碳积分转化为实际金钱的方式。

So that's how that actually transfer into money.

好的一点是，它适用于多种不同方式，因为人们并不相同，习惯也各不相同。

Well, the good thing is that it's it's applicable in many different ways because people are not all the same and people have different habits.

所以那个用完碳减排积分买了一瓶酒的人，不是每个人都喝酒。

So the guy who used up his carbon reduction points to buy a bottle of wine, well, not everyone drinks wine.

嗯。

Mhmm.

你可以用它来买鸡蛋，或者在公园为家人、孩子买门票，也可以用来抵扣你在银行的贷款利息。

So you can spend it on eggs or you can spend it at the park for tickets for your family, for your kids, or on your interest payment for your loan at the bank.

如果由我来负责向大众推广这个全国性项目，我认为重要的是要用人们能理解的语言来表达。

If I'm in charge of marketing this nationwide program to people, I think it's important that you put it in terms that people can understand.

对。

Right.

如果你对我说，我打开手机，它显示：嘿，史蒂夫。

If you say to me if I open up my phone and I say and it says, hey, Steve.

如果你坐了一天公交车，能获得多少积分？

If you take the bus one day, you get how many points was it?

比200克多两点。

Two more than 200 grams.

你获得200克碳积分。

You get 200 grams of carbon points.

我的大脑会想，

My brain says,

嗯。

Yeah.

但如果信息说，如果你连续几周每天坐两次公交车，就可以免费获得一包鸡蛋。

But if the message says, if you take the bus twice a day for a couple of weeks, you can get a free pack of eggs.

好吧，现在

Well, now

这听起来

That makes

更符合我的认知了，我现在立刻更有动力了，因为我有了一个具体的目标。

more sense to my brain and now I'm immediately more incentivized because I have a tangible goal.

我有了一个切实的奖励。

I have a tangible reward.

所以我认为，我不知道，你同意还是不同意，但我觉得这种方式如何向人们推广，将对其成功产生巨大影响。

So I think, I don't know, do you agree or disagree, but I think how this is marketed to people is going to make a tremendous difference on its success.

我认为他们没有这样做的一个原因是，很难为这些事情量化一个具体数字，史蒂夫。

I think one of the reasons that they are not doing that, Steve, is because it's very difficult to to put a number on things.

例如，在武汉，每次乘坐公交车都能为人们带来超过200克的碳减排量。

For example, in Wuhan, each bus trip earns people more than 200 grams of carbon emission reductions.

但这个数字在其他地方可能不同，比如在北京。

But that could be different, for example, in Beijing.

为什么公交车一次能超过200克呢？

Because why is it more than 200 grams for bus trip?

为什么骑自行车的数值更少？

Why that cycling is less?

为什么乘坐地铁的数值更小？

Why taking subway is even smaller number?

每个城市都有自己的计算方法。

Every every city has its own methodology.

是的。

Yes.

是的。

Yes.

因为当涉及到碳核算活动时，不同地区都有自己的方法，也就是说，它们采用不同的方式来执行。

Because when it comes to this account carbon accounting activities, each different places have their own methodologies, meaning they have different methods to do that.

此外，它们还需要考虑人口密度等因素。

And then they also need to take into account into, like, population density and so on and so forth.

所以这并不简单。

So it's not that simple.

是的。

Yeah.

正如我所说，当你在国家层面做事情时，没有任何事情是简化的。

Like I said, when you're doing things on a national level, nothing is simplified.

当然。

That's for sure.

不过真是个很棒的项目。

Really cool project though.

好吧。

Alright.

今天的圆桌讨论就到这里。

That's it for today's roundtable.

感谢大家今天参与。

Thanks for being with us for today.

我是史蒂夫，代表费菲和玉山。

For Fei Fei and Yushan, I'm Steve.

祝你今天愉快。

Have a good one.

我们下次再见。

We'll see you next time.