你的时间就是你的新货币

讨论让世界运转不息。

Discussion keeps the world turning.

是圆桌会议。

Is Roundtable.

你好。

Hello.

欢迎来到圆桌会议，我们为您奉上中国及全球热点议题的激烈辩论。

Welcome to Roundtable, where we serve up piping hot debates on the issues that sizzle in China and beyond.

我是林悠悠。

I'm Yoho Lin.

随着中国进入人口老龄化阶段，如何照料日益增长的老年人口已成为更紧迫、更复杂的问题。

As China enters the phase of depopulation aging, the question of how to care for an expanding elderly population has become more urgent more complex.

传统家庭赡养功能正在弱化，而仅靠机构养老已无法满足日益增长的需求。

Traditional family support is weakening while institutional care alone cannot meet growing demand.

对此，全国各地的社区正在尝试互助养老的新模式，寻找可持续、人性化且植根日常生活的解决方案。

In response, communities across the country are experimenting with new methods of mutual care or mutual aid, searching for solutions that are sustainable, humane and rooted in everyday life.

今天，圆桌会议带您了解中国养老领域的最新动态。

Today, Roundtable invites you to have a look at the latest trends in the world of elder care in China.

本期节目，我们邀请到了菲菲和史蒂夫·哈瑟利共同参与讨论。

For this episode, I'm joined by Fei Fei and Steve Hatherley.

现在拿起您的虚拟指南针，跟随我们深入探讨这一话题。

Now grab your virtual compass and follow us to the heart of the discussion.

全球各国社会都在面临同一个难题。

Across continents, societies are grappling with the same question.

当专业护理成本高昂且人际关系日益疏离时，我们该如何照料快速老龄化的群体？

How do we care for a rapidly aging population when professional care is costly and human connection is increasingly fragmented?

从欧洲的邻里互助计划到中国的社区试点，时间银行作为一种实用解决方案重新兴起。

From neighborhood programs in Europe to community pilots in China, time banking has reemerged as a practical response.

这种模式并非取代正式护理，而是将养老重构为社区可自主培育的服务。

Instead of replacing formal reframes care as something communities can help generate themselves.

但它能覆盖多大比例的长期养老需求？建立在信任基础上的体系能否真正推广？又能否吸引年轻人参与以维持其生命力？

But how much long term elder care can it help to cover, and can a system built on trust really scale up, and can it pull in younger people to keep it alive?

这些问题正是我们今天要讨论的。

That are the questions we want to discuss today.

但对于那些不熟悉时间银行概念的人来说，它到底是什么呢？

But for those who are not familiar with the concept of, you know, time banking, what exactly is it?

是的。

Yeah.

这本身并不新鲜。

This isn't new per se.

这可以追溯到上世纪七十年代。

This goes back to the nineteen seventies.

那就是它的起源时期。

That's when it originated.

不过截至2024年，全球已有超过60个国家在实践这一模式。

And now though, it's practiced in over 60 countries around the world as of the 2024.

简而言之，可以说时间银行处理时间的方式，就像其他银行处理金钱一样。

In brief, I guess we could say a time bank does with time what other banks do with money.

它存储时间并进行交换。

It stores it and it trades it.

那么利息呢？

So Interest?

不，时间不会产生利息。

No interest from it doesn't accrue over time.

对。

Yeah.

好的。

Okay.

但它的运作方式是这样的。

But here's how it works.

无论任务或其市场价值如何，一小时的帮助等于一个时间积分。

So one hour of help equals one time credit regardless of what the task or its market value.

任何任务的价值都是平等的。

No task task is considered more valuable than any other task.

这是一种机制，旨在将每个人的时间视为同等宝贵。

It's a mechanism designed to treat everyone's time as equally valuable.

这是个非常酷的概念。

It's a really cool concept.

具体运作方式是，林诺鸿，你可以志愿贡献一小时的时间。

So what what happens is you would, Nyohong Lin, volunteer one hour of time.

你会登录一个平台或应用。

You'd go onto a platform or an app.

找到需要帮助的人，可能是帮他们采购日用品这类事情。

You'd find someone who needed some help with something, and that something could be, doing their grocery shopping.

你拿着他们的购物清单去商店，采购物品并送回给他们。

So you'd take their list, you'd go to the shop, get their stuff, and bring it back to them.

这就是一个例子。

That would be one example.

陪老人打牌消遣，或者一起看电影。

Spending time with an elderly person playing cards together, watching a movie together.

这可能是一两个小时的时间。

That might be one or two hours.

实际上可以是任何事。

It can really be anything.

人们在平台上发布他们的需求和愿望。

People post what they want, what they need on the platform.

你回复说，好的。

You reply, say, yep.

我来帮你做这件事。

I'll do that for you.

你花一小时完成它。

You do it for an hour.

因此你会获得一小时的时间积分，现在它属于你了。

You, therefore, get one hour of time credit, and now that's yours.

之后当你需要帮助时也可以发布需求，会有人自愿来帮助你。

And then you can post when you need your help, and someone can volunteer to help you.

所以我认为这是一个非常庞大的系统，基本上需要像我们讨论的那样进行存款和取款操作。

So it's a very, I think, a big system that requires basically deposits and withdrawal from that bank as we discussed.

因此我认为这就是为什么最近很多人提出这个系统，认为它可以成为解决许多社会问题的创新方案，比如人口老龄化问题。

So that's why I think that the system is being brought by up lately by a lot of people who say that this can be an innovative solution to many of our social problems, for example, the aging population.

例如在中国，我认为我们已经面临这些挑战。

And it is for example, in in China, I think we have faced challenges.

比如，中国有超过4500万老年人患有残疾和认知障碍。

For example, we have over forty five million older adults in China living with disabilities and cognitive impairments.

但当涉及到这些人的认证护理人员时，只有50万名。

But when it comes to certified caregivers for these people, there are only 500,000.

所以这里存在巨大缺口，或许时间银行可以成为一种解决方案。

So there are big gap over here, and maybe time banking can be a solution.

这就是背后的理念。

And that's the idea behind it.

中国的人口老龄化问题，菲菲，这不仅仅是中国的问题。

And the aging population here in China, Fei Fei, it's not just a a Chinese issue.

这是一个全球性问题。

It's a worldwide issue.

根据联合国的预测，到2050年。

By 2050, these are UN projections.

数据显示全球每六个人中就有一位是65岁以上老人。

They show that one in six people around the world will be 65.

我觉得这个数据令人震惊，要知道六年前这个比例还是十一分之一。

I found that to be a shocking statistic, and that's up from one in eleven from just six years ago.

由于全球人口快速老龄化，这意味着需要帮助的老年人口不断增长，而按照逻辑推算，能够提供帮助的年轻人口却在持续减少。

And because of that rapid aging population worldwide, it means there's a growing number of older people that need help alongside, if you compare it then, that by logic, it means there's a shrinking number of younger people that are available to provide that help.

时间银行之所以是个新颖的理念，正是因为它不需要现金交易。

And the reason time banking is such a novel idea, a novel concept is because it doesn't require cash.

它不像其他护理形式那样需要任何金钱支出。

It doesn't require any money such as other forms of care do.

在美国，专业长期护理的费用极其高昂。

In The US, the cost of professional long term care is extremely high.

例如，养老院的年费用估计约为10万美元，即使是居家护理也大约需要6万美元。

For instance, the estimated annual cost of a nursing home is about a 100,000 US dollars, and even in home assistance is roughly $60,000.

因此这个价格标签是美国大多数家庭难以承受的。

So that is a price tag that most families in The United States cannot afford.

据我了解，在中国这里要便宜得多，但对一些家庭来说仍然会很昂贵。

It's a lot more affordable here in China from what I understand, but still, it would be expensive for some families.

是的。

Yeah.

以北京为例，养老院平均每月费用约为6600元，折合每年约1.1万美元。

For for example, in Beijing, a senior care facility costs on average about 6,600 yen a month, which is about 11 something 11,000 US dollars annually.

但随着老龄化人口增长，大多数情况下首先很难在这些机构获得一个床位。

But we also as we're facing a growing aging population, most of the time is that it's very difficult to get a space, first of all, in these facilities.

尽管在国际上听起来价格合理，但这并不意味着每个中国家庭都能负担得起。

And even though it sounds affordable internationally, it doesn't mean everybody in China can afford that.

所以这是另一个问题。

So that's another issue.

第三点是并非所有人都愿意去养老院。

And the third one is not everybody is very open to going to a nursing home.

是的，没错。

Yeah, right.

不是每个人都想去的。

Not everyone wants to.

这就是为什么在中国，90%的养老照护按设计本应在家中完成。

And that is why in China, 90% of elder care is supposed to be, by design, happening at home.

所以这应该是家庭支持的养老模式。

So it's supposed to be family supported elder care.

当然你可以获得各种服务，比如来自社区或活动中心的帮助，他们会上门协助改造家居环境，或为老人提供医疗服务等。

Of course, you can have all kinds of different services, having the kind of aid from the neighborhood or from community centers to come to your home and help you with adapting your home, for example, providing medical services for the elderly as such.

但我认为时间银行的概念不仅限于此，或者说它并非纯粹为解决这类系统性问题而设计。

But I think the time bank idea is not only there, or it's not purely designed there to solve these kind of systematic problems.

它更像是一种补充性解决方案，用以应对这类问题。

It's more like a complementary solution to address the kind of issue.

我...我认为可以从两个部分来看待这个问题。

I I see it from or I I would like to separate it into two parts.

第一部分是让越来越多的人加入这个项目，帮助那些需要帮助的人，从而在一定程度上缓解我们当前面临的问题。

The first part is having more and more people joining the program and helping those in need so that it can somehow ease the problem that we face now.

而第二阶段则是当这些志愿者年迈时，轮到他们享受服务的时候——从银行取出他们的...抱歉，是取出他们的时间，

And the second phase would be after those volunteers get older, when it's their time to enjoy the service, to get their money, excuse me, time out of the bank and

他们的信用积分。

Their credit.

从银行取出他们的信用积分，并得到一些陪伴。

Their credit out of the bank and have some company.

我猜想到那个时候，人们会更重视人情温暖，而非实际得到的所谓有形帮助。因为我们在录制这期圆桌会议前做过调查，在各种社交平台上询问：你们心目中理想的未来养老形式是什么？

And I would assume at that time, more people would value the human touch rather than the actual so called tangible help they get because we did a survey before recording the show on roundtables, all kinds of social platforms about this episode we're about to do, and we asked them, what is your ideal form of elder care for your future?

猜猜看。

Take a guess.

哪种形式得票最高？

Which one got to the highest?

那么，你们两位觉得呢？

Well, let's say, what about you, both of you?

在步入银发岁月时，你们认为相对更理想的养老方式是怎样的？

What would you think would be the relatively more ideal way of receiving elder in our golden, well, silver

白发年华？

haired age?

我当然希望能被熟悉的人围绕，比如邻居、朋友和家人，并且身处熟悉的环境，比如自己家中。

Well, would definitely want to be surrounded by people I know, like my neighbors, my friends, my family, and in an environment that I'm familiar with, like my home.

所以是基于家庭或社区的模式？

So family based or within the community?

是的。

Yes.

我在想游泳池和大屏幕电视。

I'm thinking swimming pool, large screen TV.

你是问我这个吗？还是我应该说些关于家庭的内容？

Is this what you're asking me, or am I supposed to say something about family?

不是。

No.

那很好。

That's good.

说实话，让我个人感到意外的是，从我们社交媒体平台获得最多选择的答案，是大多数人希望被高科技设备包围或支持。

Because the highest number or the highest choice we've got from our social media platforms, surprisingly, to be honest, for me personally, surprisingly, is that most people would like to be surrounded or to be supported by high-tech gadgets.

哦。

Oh.

他们想要外骨骼，这样他们还能四处走动，甚至可能去旅行。

They want exoskeletons so that they can still move around, maybe even travel.

他们想要由人工智能驱动的监控设备。

They want the kind of monitors that are powered by AI.

所以他们是被监控的，但不是被另一个人，而是被系统和数据。

So they are kinda monitored, but not by another human being, but by the system and by data.

他们还希望自己的家能配备高科技。

And they want their homes to be adapted with high technology.

因此我认为对于这一代人，尤其是《圆桌派》的忠实粉丝和参与我们投票调查的群体而言，他们尚未达到那个阶段。

So I think for this generation, for those who are hardcore fans of Roundtable and search for the kind of voting we put up there, they are not there yet.

他们对人文关怀的需求并不强烈，仍停留在思考如何通过科技满足基本生存需求的层面。

They haven't been so keen to human touch and they're still thinking about the basic needs in the sense that they're supported.

我理解。

I understand.

但你们是在向一群人询问关于未来的设想。

But you're asking a group of people about the future.

那是

That's

二十，还是三十年后

Twenty, what thirty years

所以这很困难。

and so it's difficult.

不到那个时刻谁也无法预知。但即便你渴望家人陪伴，需要人文关怀，终究还是需要真实的人类来提供这些。

You don't know until you get there, But even if you want to be surrounded by family, even if you do need that human touch, you still need the humans to provide that.

确实如此。

Exactly.

我认为这正是时间银行试图解决或提供的。

And I think that is what time banking is trying to solve or trying to provide.

正如史蒂夫所说，这个概念很新颖。

And this concept, like Steve said, it is novel.

这是个相当酷的想法。

It's quite a cool idea.

嗯。

Mhmm.

不过，它已经存在一段时间了。

Yet, it has been there for a while.

在国际上，我们已经看到了一些实践案例，以及它如何惠及社区或人们如何接受它。

And internationally, we've already seen some examples of how it's practiced and how it's benefiting maybe the community or how are people receiving it.

要说最著名的案例，如果在美国可以称得上著名的话，就是波特兰的时间交换组织，H-O-U-R，Hour。

Well, the one that's maybe the most famous, if I can say famous in The United States, is called Hour Exchange Portland, h o u r, Hour.

它位于美国俄勒冈州的波特兰市，是美国运行时间最长的社区时间银行之一。

It's in Portland, Oregon in The United States, and it's one of the longest running time banks in America.

这是一个邻里之间用时间积分交换服务已近三十年的系统。

And it's a system where neighbors have traded their services using time credits for about almost thirty years.

它成立于1997年，是该国数百家运营中的时间银行之一。

It opened in 1997, and it's among hundreds of time banks operating in that particular country.

我也查了加拿大的情况。

I checked in Canada as well.

我们不仅有普通时间银行，还有一种我之前不知道的家长时间银行。

We have we have time bank, but we also have something called, and I did not know about this, parent time bank.

哦。

Oh.

显然这在单亲父母中非常受欢迎，他们需要工作同时又要处理生活中的各种事务，通过这个社区时间银行互相帮助。

And apparently, that's really popular with single parents who are working and need help with this, that, or the other in their lives, and they go to that time bank help each other out, yeah, in the community there.

这就是加拿大的情况。

That's Canada.

还有其他国际案例。

There are other international examples.

有一个叫做‘时间共和国’。

There's one called Time Republic.

它最初于瑞士启动，

It was first launched in Switzerland in

‘20 好名字。

'20 Good name.

在2012年。

In 2012.

不过那有点不同。

That is a little bit different, though.

它的运作方式类似时间银行，

So this functions as a time bank.

他们称之为互联网时代的时间银行，全球用户超过10万。

They call it a time bank for the Internet era, and they have over a 100,000 users worldwide.

但他们的做法是利用在线协助。

But what they do there is they use their their assistance online.

比如说，通过视频通话提供专业时尚建议就是一个例子。

So, like, doing video calls for, I don't know, things like professional fashion advice is one example.

哦，这个我需要。

Oh, I need that.

这可能是用来交换一小时的在线冥想课程或一小时的教学。

And that might be in exchange for an online meditation course for one hour or a lesson for one hour.

他们使用一种名为'时间币'的信用体系，其中15分钟服务（而非1小时）等于1个信用点，同样不分工作种类。

And they use a credit known as Time Coin in that particular example, where fifteen minutes of service, not one hour, fifteen minutes of service equals one credit, and again, it's regardless of the job.

非常有趣。

Very interesting.

中国的情况如何？

How about the situation in China?

其实在中国，这个概念最早出现在1998年的上海，当时成立了第一家劳务银行。

Well, here in China, actually, the concept, surprisingly, appeared firstly in China in 1998 in Shanghai with the establishment of the first labor bank.

但直到现在，中国的时间银行与国际同行有所不同之处在于，它更多是在社区中针对老龄化人口进行试点，尤其是采用低龄老人帮助高龄老人的模式。

But that and and I think till now, what's Chinese time banks are a little different than their international peers is that it's more sort of trialed in communities for the aging population, especially in the model of lower age elders helping higher age elders.

哦。

Oh.

就像60多岁的老人帮助80或90多岁的老人那样。

It's like right like the elderly in their 60s helping those in their 80s or 90s.

嗯。

Mhmm.

例如，我曾调研过河北省杭州市的一个案例。

So for example, I oversaw an example in Hangzhou, Hebei Province.

他们有个叫杨树社区的地方，那里60多岁的志愿者会帮助更年长的老人跑腿、理发、取药或快递。

They have a community called Yangshu, where volunteers in their sixties help those who are much older than them to run errands, to do their hair haircuts, to pick up their medicines or parcels.

该社区约有70名这样的老年志愿者，他们的志愿服务会积累积分，之后可兑换肥皂等物品或其他志愿者的服务。

And so they have about 70 such elder volunteers in that community, and they they get credit points in this volunteer work, which then can later be redeemed things like soaps or services of other volunteers.

他们还可以积攒这些积分，以便在自己年届八旬或未来需要时使用这类服务。

They can also save up these points to so that they can use such services when they reach their eighties or when they need such services in the future.

从这个意义上说，这是一种投资。

In that sense, it'd be an investment.

是的。

Yeah.

差不多吧。

Sort of.

对。

Yeah.

然后你可以在晚年兑换这些积分。

And then you can redeem it later on in your life.

我很好奇。

I'm curious.

我认为这取决于时间银行及其所在地，但有些情况下，比如如果我想为父母获取时间，我可以为别人志愿服务一小时。

I think it depends on the time bank and where it is in the world, but for some, you so for example, if I wanted time for my parents, I could volunteer an hour for somebody else doing something.

然后我无需保留这些积分，而是可以将积分转给我的父母。

And then instead of me keeping that credit, I can transfer that credit to my parents.

我也好奇是否真是这样运作的。

I wonder if that's how it works too.

我不太确定是否如此运作，因为目前中国的时间银行规模还非常小。

I'm not really sure if that's how it works because right now, I think these time banks in China is running on pretty small small scale.

你可以看看我举的杭州那个例子。

You can see the example that I gave in Hangzhou.

他们只有大约70名这样的志愿者。

They only have, like, 70 such volunteers.

尽管这不是一个很大的社区，只覆盖了极少数人群。

Even though it's not a very big community, it's only a very short a small portion of people out there.

我认为部分原因就像Steve提到的，如何确保这些积分获取的透明度？

And I think one of the reason is because, as Steve mentioned, how do we, you know, ensure the transparency of getting these credits?

谁来担保你获得的积分确实对应了你付出的服务时间？

Who are there to guarantee that the points you get are really the time that you served?

但若想扩大规模，这确实是我们必须跨越的障碍。

But that is kind of a hurdle we have to jump if we want to scale it up.

因为仔细想想，如果人们知道远在外省的父母也能得到照顾，很多人都会愿意做志愿工作。

Because if you think about it, many people would like to do volunteer work if they know that their parents from far away, a different province, is also taken care of.

这就是为什么我们看到青岛正计划在全市范围内实现这一目标，并最终与同省的潍坊、烟台等邻近城市联动，最大化服务范围，确保你在一个城市提供服务时，父母能在另一个城市享受服务。

And that is why we see that Qingdao, for instance, is planning to achieve this citywide and eventually with neighboring cities as Weifan and Yantai, all of them are in the same province, to maximize the scope of service curriculum, making sure that if you do your service in this one city, your parents can enjoy it from another city.

如果能形成全国性系统，我相信参与的人肯定会更多。

And if it can be a national level system, definitely, I think the more people would like to take part in.

我在中国的社交媒体应用和平台上看到过这类视频。

And I think I've seen the kind of videos on China's social media web apps and also platforms.

很多人会做一件好事，然后说类似这样的话：'我已签署帮助他人父母的协议，我这么做是希望自己的父母也能得到照顾。'

Many people would do a nice deed and saying something like, I have signed up the agreement of helping other people's parents, and I wanna do that because I want my parents to be taken care of as well.

所谓的协议其实并不存在。

The so called agreement does not really exist.

这种理念在国内年轻群体中非常受欢迎。

It's a concept that are very welcome among the younger generation here in the country.

每当听到这类事情，你会更愿意帮助在地铁站、火车站或任何地方遇到的老人，说实话，这样美好的善意就能在全国传播开来。

Whenever you hear something like this, you tend to help the elder generation that you meet in subway stations, in train stations, and anywhere, to be honest, so that this kind of good mojo can can spread around the country.

是的。

Yeah.

有些人出于内心的善良会这么做，这很棒，因为有些人确实喜欢志愿服务、回馈社区，但并非所有人都愿意这样做。

And some people will do this out of the kindness of their hearts, and that's great because some people really like to volunteer and give back to the community, but not everyone likes to do that.

但我认为这个系统在其他方面仍然有效。

But I think this system still works in other ways.

比如我们讨论过医疗费用和所需时间，有些人工作非常繁忙。

For example, we talked about the cost of health care and the time that it takes, and some people are, very busy with their jobs.

他们可能根本没有时间，或者根本没有钱。

They simply don't have the time, or perhaps they simply don't have the money.

如果你来自低收入家庭，这就是获得额外帮助的绝佳替代方案。

And if you are in a situation in a low income family, then this is just such a great alternative to get extra help.

而且不一定是像帮老人调整床铺这类非常私人的事情。

And it doesn't have to be for deeply personal things like adjusting seniors in their beds or things like that.

可以是像去商店取东西这样非常简单的小事。

It can be something really, really simple like going to pick up something from the shop.

说到这个层面的信任问题，其实可以采用区块链技术来确保您的时间被准确记录和存储，而不是像写在某人办公室的某张纸上那样。

And and when it comes to trust on that level, well, could use things like blockchain technology to ensure that your time is properly kept and stored as opposed to, you know, like writing it down on a piece of paper in somebody's office somewhere.

这样就能解决那个问题。

So that would address that problem.

但在安全和审查方面，比如这些志愿者究竟是谁，我认为当交易变得简单时，可能会让人们更愿意尝试这些服务，即使你并不一定认识对方。

But then in terms of safety and vetting, like, who is actually who are these people who are volunteering their time and things like that, I think when you have simple transactions, then it makes it a little bit more perhaps palatable for people to to entice people to want to use these services, even if you don't even if you don't necessarily know the person.

我的意思是，想想看。

I mean, think about it.

如果你点外卖，你并不认识送餐员是谁。

If you order takeout delivery food, you don't know who your delivery driver is.

这样也没关系。

And that's okay.

这样也没关系。

And that's okay.

对吧。

Right.

你并没有邀请外卖员进家门帮你把食品放进冰箱。

You're not inviting the delivery driver into your home to unpack your groceries into your fridge.

而且你也没有真正邀请他们进入你的生活，这就是为什么近年来我们看到时间银行系统重新兴起。

And you're not inviting exactly inviting them into your life, which is why in recent years, we are seeing a reemergence of this time banking system.

我们是否正在展望一个可能的未来——至少在几年后，这种系统有可能发展成全国规模的体系吗？

And are we looking at a possible future with this really being a at least after several years, is it possible to have it as a national scale system?

我想回到美国波特兰交换所的那个例子。

I wanna go back to the example from The United States that our Exchange Portland Institute.

从会员数量来看，到2021年他们只剩下约400名会员。

So membership wise, by the 2021, they were down to around 400 members.

而到了2022年，也就是一年后，又有20名新成员加入了时间银行。

And then in 2022, a year later, 20 new members made it into the Time Bank.

然后在2023年，系统又引入了309名会员（包括新老申请人），同时约有800个停用账户突然被重新激活。

Then another 309 members, those were both old and new applicants, they were introduced into the system in 2023, and around 800 deactivated accounts were suddenly turned back on.

那些停止使用服务的人突然又开始重新使用它了。

People who stopped using the service all of a sudden started using it again.

把这些数字加起来，那里的人数远超一千。

You add up those numbers, that's well over a thousand people there.

这这在一个特定社区里是个相当大的数量。

That's that's a significant amount for for one particular community.

年龄方面的数字也很能说明问题。

The numbers too in terms of age, think, are significant there.

2024年他们发现主要成员年龄在40至49岁之间。

In 2024, they discovered that the main members were aged 40 49.

他们是所有不同年龄组中最大的群体。

They were the biggest group from all different age groups.

他们占比26%。

They represented 26%.

年轻成员（18至29岁）和年长成员（80至89岁）占比很小，但40至49岁这个最大群体比例说明他们是上有老下有小的三明治一代。

Younger members, eighteen to twenty nine, and and older members, eighty to eighty nine, they were a very small percentage, but forty to forty nine, that tells if they're the largest percentage of the group, then that tells me that those are people who have kids, the sandwich generation.

他们很可能既有孩子需要抚养，又有父母需要照顾。

They have probably have kids, and they have their parents that they need to take care of.

因此这类服务将成为他们生活中的巨大助力。

So this this type of service would be a tremendous asset to their lives.

这让我想起在中国，我们也有个非常新的概念叫‘共享奶奶’。

That reminds me that here in China, we have a very new concept as well called shared grammar.

哦，是的。

Oh, yes.

确实。

That's Yeah.

没错。

Yeah.

这名字起得也很棒。

Got a great name too.

现在它还与时间银行系统挂钩了。

It's now also linked to the time banking system as well.

比如在浙江省台州市，有个社区采用这种结合‘共享奶奶’的时间银行系统——意思是六十多岁、曾当过老师的老年人可以帮年轻双职工家庭接孩子。

For example, in in Taizhou, Zhejiang Province, there is a community that adopt this time banking system with shared grammar, meaning that the elderlies in their sixties who used to especially who used to work as teachers, They can help young working couples to pick up their children.

他们还能提供给孩子读书、组织绘画等集体活动的服务。

And they can also offer services like reading to these children, taking group activities like drawing.

所以这就像是保姆服务？

So it's like a nanny service?

是的。

Yeah.

类似

Kind

吧。

of.

对。

Yeah.

差不多。

Kind of.

主要是在父母没时间或无法准时接孩子的那一两个小时里帮忙照看。

Just to take care of these children in the one or two hours when their parents don't have the time or can't make it on time to pick up them.

通过这些服务，这些所谓的‘共享语法’可以积累信用点，以便未来兑换其他服务。

And so by these services, these shared grammar, quote unquote, can save up their credit points for later other services as well.

所以我们可以看到，在时间银行这个概念上，我们需要从一个更宏观的视角来看——不仅是解决老龄化问题，更是要建立代际之间的联系。

So you can see that I think when it comes to time banking, we may need to, you know, look at it at a bigger concept of not just being solving aging population, but to make that link between generations.

有个有趣的附加效应是：2019年中国参与时间银行志愿服务的新毕业生中，有10%后来选择从事养老行业。

And what's a funny benefit or side effect is that we see that back in 2019, 10% of new graduates who participated in Time Bank volunteer services in China went on to pursue a career in the elder care sector.

他们在志愿工作中感受到回报，于是决定将其作为职业。这让很多日常生活中没有老人需要照顾的年轻人获得了新视角。

They feel the rewards doing these kind of volunteer work, and they decided to make it a career, which gives us something that is in your everyday life, perhaps you do not have an elder person in your home to take care of.

而参与这类活动后，大多数人都会获得这种成就感。

Yet, after participating in these kind of activities, most people would would have the rewarding feeling.

这个现象向我们证明：如果能扩大规模，这个模式肯定会受到欢迎。

And that right there is something that shows us if we manage to scale it up, probably, it will definitely be popular.

如果流行起来，你们就能解决人才缺口问题。

And you'll there and if it's popular, you'll solve a a talent gap problem.

还能解决劳动力短缺问题。

You'll solve a worker shortage problem.

我们最近在圆桌会议上讨论了工程师问题，以及来自大学外部的专业人士如何进入大学协助项目与课程设计，从而使工程专业学生更有信心在毕业后继续从事本领域工作。

We talked about engineers on Roundtable recently and how professionals from outside the universities were coming into the universities to assist with the programs and the curriculum design, thereby making engineering students feel comfortable that they can follow a career path out beyond their their university studies in the same field.

我在这里看到了同样的现象。

I see the same thing happening here.

如果年轻人在求学阶段就参与其中，如果他们能看清职业发展路径并对此有清晰认知，就会鼓励更多学生走上这条路。

If young people who get involved at this from a young age in terms of their studies, if they see where their career path can go and it's clear to them, then it would encourage more students to follow that kind of path.

是的。

Yes.

就在上个月，我们看到中国发布了——更准确说是发展了一套养老服务标准体系。

And just last month, we see that China has issued a well, it's more of a development for of an elderly care service standard system.

与2017版相比，更新后的指南在总体框架、分类方法、服务对象覆盖范围和标准编码等方面都进行了调整与扩充。

Compared with the 2017 edition, the updated guidelines introduce adjustments and expansions in the overall framework, classification methods, coverage of service targets and standard coding.

新规还充分考虑了不同服务场景，包括居家养老、社区养老和机构养老，并进一步规范了与老年人日常生活密切相关的服务内容。

The new regulations also take into full account different service settings, including home based, community based and institution care as well as further standardized services closely related to older adults' daily lives.

这不仅包括生活照料，还涵盖了情感支持。

And that includes not only personal care, but also emotional support as well.

我认为情感支持方面，随着时间银行体系的扩大化发展，将会得到更好的保障。

And emotional support, I think, is going to be even more taken care of by the time banking system if they scale up.

嗯。

Mhmm.

这也充分表明，全球各国都面临这些问题并寻求不同的解决方式，这是不言而喻的。

And that also shows well, I think it's it goes without saying that all countries around the world are facing these problems and finding different ways to solve it.

时间银行是一种方式，但我们提到的那些在年轻一代中非常流行的设想，比如他们年老时将获得技术支持，涉及各类技术开发或创新领域。

Time banking is one, but to the ones that we mentioned that are really popular among the younger generation picturing when they get older would be technical support, different types of technical or development or innovation.

当然在中国，我们已经看到许多居家适老化改造，以更好地服务或满足老年群体的需求。

And here, of course, in China, we've seen a lot of happening in one's home so that it can be better served or meet the needs of the elder generation.

是的。

Yeah.

确实如此。

Exactly.

当我们讨论构建更适老的居住环境时，我认为这不仅关乎技术，还包括那些无形的关怀——因为对我们这些尚未八九十岁的人来说，生活中总有些细节是你无法察觉的。

And when we are talking about building a more age friendly living environment, and I think it's not only about technology, but also about these these, you know, invisible care that you can give to the elderly is because for us who are not in our eighties or nineties, there are just something in life you won't notice.

例如，地板上有个凹陷

For example, there is a depression in the floor.

这对我们来说不是问题

That's not a problem for us.

但对九十多岁的老人来说可能是个大问题

But maybe for someone in their nineties, that's a big problem.

对他们而言存在很大风险

That's a big risk for them.

我认为通过社区互助，让低龄老人帮助高龄老人，他们才能真正设身处地了解这个房间里发生了什么，这些老人真正需要什么

And I think by having community, you know, mutual help with low age elderly helping higher age elderly, they are really in their shoes to be able to know, you know, what's going on in this room, what's really are needed, truly needed by these elderly people.

这就是为什么我认为文件中提到了社区层面和情感支持

And that's why I think in the documents they mentioned about, you know, community level and emotional support.

这些都是社区能够提供的

These are all just communities can get.

我想我明白你的意思了

I think I see your point there.

年轻到足以提供帮助，又年长到能理解老年人的需求。

So young enough to be able to help, but yet old enough to be able to understand the needs of the elderly people.

是的。

Yes.

我在上海看到一个非常可爱的例子。

And I see this really cute example in Shanghai.

有一辆适老化改造解决方案的示范车。

There is an age friendly renovation solution demonstration car.

这是一辆移动展览车，展示了可升降橱柜篮、漏水报警器和折叠浴室扶手等产品。

It's a mobile exhibition vehicle, and it showcases the products like liftable cabinet baskets, water leak alarms, and foldable bathroom handrails.

通过将这些车开进许多有老年居民的社区，那些住在原宅的老人参观后非常喜欢，并意识到生活可以变得更好。

And by driving these cars into many communities with elder generation, those living in their original homes loving it and do not realize that it can be better after giving a tour in this, you know, car.

他们会知道哪些服务能让生活更便利。

They would know what kind of services can actually make their life easier.

所以，除了让较年轻的老人帮助更年长的老人之外。

So, yeah, on top of having the younger, older people helping the older, older people.

我们也能做到这些。

We can do these as well.

人人互助。

Everybody helping everybody.

每个人。

Everybody.

是的。

Yes.

没错。

Exactly.

除此之外，在中国，我们已经提到过可以在以社区为基础或社区为中心的家庭中度过晚年。

And besides that, in China, we already mentioned that you can spend your older years at home in communities based or community centered homes.

但也有很多人会选择去不同的地方旅行。

But also, a lot of people would choose to travel to different places.

我认为这些也相对更适用于较年轻的老年群体。

I think those are also relatively more applied to the younger elder generation.

这正在形成一个产业，我认为当你到了那个年纪，这对Steve来说非常合适。

And it's becoming an industry, and I think it suits Steve quite well when you are at that age.

不仅如此

Not only

希望我能活到那个岁数。

hope I make it that far.

你能享受大游泳池、观看体育赛事的大电视吗？

Would you be able to enjoy big swimming pool, nice, huge TV for sports games?

在这些提供服务的场所，你还能享受大自然。

You can also enjoy the nature in these places providing these services.

嗯，你知道，现在正是这个季节，对吧？

Well, you know, right now, it's the season, isn't it?

是啊。

Yeah.

中国东北地区的老年人会去海南旅游，享受热带气候和游泳池。

Elderly in the Northeastern part of China travel to Hainan, enjoy the tropical weather, enjoy their swimming pools.

他们被称为候鸟式老人，冬天前往温暖地区，夏天再回到寒冷地带。

And they are called, I think, migratory elderly in the country that they travel to warmer places in the winters and then back to the colder places.

北美也有类似的概念。

We have that concept in North America too.

在加拿大，他们被称为'雪鸟族'。

In Canada, they're called snowbirds.

哦。

Oh.

是的。

Yes.

这确实是件值得期待的事，我未来退休后也希望能这样生活。

And that can be a really something that I think I I would look forward to in in my retirement someday in the future.

是的。

Yes.

在圆桌讨论中我们还提到，很多养老院与幼儿园合作，让幼儿园的社交活动也在养老院开展。

And on roundtable, we've also discussed that a lot of elderly homes are cooperating with kindergartens so that some kind of social activities of the kindergarten kids would happen in the elderly home as well.

他们互相照顾。

They take care of each other.

老年人会传承智慧。

The elderly would pass down the wisdom.

孩子们四处奔跑，让原本宁静美好的养老院变得喧闹活泼，充满孩子们的欢声笑语。

The young kids would run around and make the outer home that used to be tranquilized and beautiful and peaceful outer homes so noisy and lively and kids running around and laughing and screaming.

这会是个好主意。

And that would be a good idea.

所以我们并非缺乏尝试。

So we're not lack of trying.

而是我们需要更多坚持和创新，确保这些成功案例能够推广，在全国各地实现。

It's that we need a little more persistence, a little more innovation to make sure that the very successful examples can be scaled up, can happen all around in the country.