挑战者与酷儿：贾斯汀·库利茨克

如今塔什和阿尔特已是网球界的赢家，而帕特里克却成了输家，但两人的起点并非如此。

And Tashi and Art are now the haves of tennis, and Patrick is the have not, but that's not where either of them started.

你明白吗？

You know?

这很有趣。

And it's interesting.

在塔什人生的这个阶段，这种追求似乎已演变成超越网球所能提供的物质保障的东西。

It seems to have mutated by this point in Tashi's life into something beyond, like, the material security that tennis offered.

就像电影前半段那场极具揭示性的对话场景。

Like, there's that really telling interchange, like, early on in the film.

她对阿尔特说：'如果你只能做到这种程度，我们可以当有钱人；或者你可以成为真正的网球选手——这才是你的本质'。

She tells Art, We can be rich people if that's all you think you can handle, or you can be a tennis player, which is what you are.

她向阿尔特描述的生活，或许正是阿尔特会满足的状态，但这永远无法让塔什获得满足。

The life she's describing to Art seems like one you suspect Art might be quite happy with, but that's not gonna fulfill Tashi.

你认为到底是什么在驱动塔什说出这番话？这些话里有多少是源于她被伤病剥夺的梦想？

What do you think it is that kind of motivates those words for Tashi, and how much of those words is wrapped up in what was taken away from her by injury?

这是个非常犀利的观察——重点早已不在物质层面，而且多年来都不是。

That's a very sharp observation that it's not about it's no longer about the material aspect of it, and it hasn't been for years.

而且坦白说，从来都不是。

And, frankly, it never was.

对吧？

Right?

网球对Tashi的吸引力从来就不在于那些物质因素。

That never was the thing about tennis that was driving Tashi.

我认为你说得对，她在丈夫身上看到的是一个自认为成就斐然的男人。

I think you're you're right to say that she sees in her husband a guy who feels like he accomplished a lot.

他取得的成就远超自己曾经的预期。

He accomplished more than he ever thought he was going to.

要知道Art本应是个相当平庸的选手，当初甚至没人确定他能否转为职业球员。

You know, Art was supposed to be this pretty mediocre player, where it wasn't even a given that he was going to go pro at all.

明白吗？

You know?

有一个版本的Art是去斯坦福上大学，打大学网球联赛，最后可能去读医学院之类的。

There's a version of art where he goes to Stanford, he plays college, you know, plays college tennis and ends up going to medical school or something.

要知道，我们认识的Art在青少年时期就完全做好了接受这种人生的准备。

You know, that's our art is, as a teenager, I think, is fully prepared for that.

但由于他与Tashi的关系，由于她在他身上看到的潜质，以及她对他的要求和鞭策，他现在得以载入史册。

And then because of his relationship with Tashi and because of the what she sees in him and what she puts on him and demands from him, he's now in this position where he's in the history books.

他是传奇人物。

He's an all timer.

明白吗？

You know?

尤其对美国男性选手而言。

Especially for an American man.

要知道，自安迪·罗迪克之后，美国男选手已经很久没拿过大满贯了。

You know, there hasn't been an American man to win a grand slam in forever since Andy Roddick, I think.

懂我意思吗？

You know?

所以像阿特这样手握六个大满贯的选手如果现在出现，绝对会是超级巨星。

So a a guy like Art existing now with six grand slams would be a complete superstar.

对吧？

You know?

但他已经疲惫不堪了。

And he's tired.

而她看着这一切，心里想着：你的双腿明明还能动。

And for her, she's seeing that and thinking, you are still your legs still work.

明白吗？

You know?

你的手臂还能正常活动。

Your arms still work.

你去年经历了手术，当时看起来可能职业生涯就此终结，但你恢复得很好，完全可以继续打球。

You you had this surgery last year where there was a moment where it seemed like maybe this was it, but you you had a great recovery and you can play.

所以你怎么能不尽全力把职业生涯推向极致呢？

So how how could you possibly not want to push this as far as you possibly can?

你明白吗？

You know?

我觉得对她来说，他们就这样退役享受生活的想法某种程度上是令人反感的。

And I think for her, the idea of, like, them just retiring and enjoying their lives is kind of, like, repulsive.

懂吗？

You know?

并不是说她对他感到反感，我不这么认为，也不是说她对他们的生活感到反感。

Not in the sense that she's repulsed by him, I don't think, or that she's repulsed by their life.

但我认为她反感的是对这种生活的接受态度，你懂吗？这就是她说'我们现在可以只当有钱人了'时的意思。

But I think she's repulsed by the the acceptance of that life, you know, which is what she means when she says we can just be rich people now.

这这完全不是一个真诚的提议。

It's it's very much it is not a sincere offer.

明白吗？

You know?

她她并不是在说这是个提议。

She's she's not saying that's a that's an offer.

她是在说，你就这么死气沉沉了吗？

She's saying, is is that how dead you are?

你知道吗？

You know?

你就只想全职经营基金会了？

That you'll just wanna, like, run the foundation full time?

不。

No.

你做完手术后，还带着那股劲儿。

You're you came out of surgery with, you know, with it.

你的肩膀还能动。

Your shoulder still works.

你的手臂还能用，你还有生命力。

Your arm still works, and you still got life in you.

所以这他妈算什么？

So so what the fuck?

你知道吗？

You know?

有一种对这部电影的解读，特别是对塔西的角色发展，我认为是在探讨她作为网球新星时被剥夺某些东西的不公感——她原本非常期待过另一种人生，因此对网球和获胜产生了执念。

There's a reading of this film and Tashi's arc in particular that kind of, like, explores the idea, I suppose, that, like, Tashi's sense of injustice at what was taken from her as this tennis starlet who very much anticipated living one type of life is that she has this obsession with tennis and winning.

她试图通过艺术间接体验这种生活，但这永远无法完全满足她。

She's trying to live it vicariously through art, but it's never going to fully satisfy her.

这导致了这种特殊的三角关系：帕特里克爱艺术，艺术爱塔西，但塔西却无法真正爱其中任何一方，因为她只痴迷于获胜。

And it leads to this particular love triangle in which the read online is Patrick loves art, art loves Tashi, but Tashi is kind of incapable of truly loving either because she just loves winning so much.

这种执念实在太深了。

That's such a point of obsession.

我不确定是否完全认同这种解读，因为我确实认为她对双方都有真挚的感情。

I don't know if I quite agree with it because I do think there's genuine love for both parties there.

不过我很好奇你的看法，或者你在塑造这个角色时是如何构思她的。

But I'm curious what your take is, or how you how you thought of the character as you approached her on the page.

嗯。

Yeah.

我不认为有人会那么简单。

I don't think anybody is that simple.

你明白吗？

You know?

而且我不认为有人会只想要一样东西。

And I don't think anybody ever wants just one thing.

你知道，如果说这个人真的想要她，或者她真的想要他，这样会显得非常整齐划一。

You know, I think it it would be very tidy and very neat to say this one really wants he really wants her or she really wants him, you know, all of that.

但我觉得这种设定对我来说不够有趣，不如我认为的关于他们的真相来得吸引人——那就是他们都想要相互冲突的东西。

That, I think, is kind of like that's just not as interesting to me as the as what I what I feel like is the truth about them, which is that they all want conflicting things.

而且，我认为Tashi对这两个男人感到沮丧的一点在于，某种程度上，我一直认为她是那种渴望被完全看见、被完全理解，并以其本来面目被接纳的人。

And, you know, I think what's frustrating for Tashi about these two guys is that in a way, I always thought of her as somebody who's really hungry to be seen fully and to be understood fully and and met as she is.

你懂我的意思吗？

You know?

Patrick和Art都看到了她不同的侧面，也都爱上了她不同的部分，但没有一个人爱她的全部。

And Patrick and Art both see different parts of her and are both in love with different parts of her, but neither one is in love with the whole thing.

你知道吗？

You know?

他们谁都无法接受完整的她。

Neither one can accept the whole thing.

她爱着这两个男人各自的一部分，却无法爱上完整的他们，因为他们都有所欠缺。

And she is in love with parts of each of these guys, but can't love the whole thing because they're deficient in some way.

从某种意义上说，这种苛求正是她的缺陷。

And in a way, that demand makes is her deficiency.

你看，那种固执就是她的缺陷。

You know, that that sort of stubbornness is is her deficiency.

但她又怎么能降低要求呢？

But it's also how could she demand less?

你明白吗？

You know?

她怎么能减少自己的渴望呢？

How could she how could she want less?

她对自己有太多的尊重。

She has too much respect for herself.

你知道吗？

You know?

所以我认为这反映在他们打网球的方式上，帕特里克以一种非常狂野、天赋异禀、爆发力十足的运动员方式打球，而阿尔特则以一种非常讲究、按部就班、纪律严明的方式打球。

So I think and then that gets reflected in in the way that they all play tennis, you know, that Patrick plays in this very wild, naturally gifted sort of explosive athletic way, and art plays in this very mannered, studied by the book, you know, disciplined way.

但塔希在受伤前，两者兼具。

But Tashi, before her injury, she had both.

这就是成为伟大网球选手的途径。

And that's how you become a great tennis player.

你知道吗？

You know?

大卫·福斯特·华莱士有一篇关于罗杰·费德勒的精彩文章，他谈到网球曾有一个时刻从古典音乐变成了金属乐队的风格。

And there's a great essay by David Foster Wallace about Roger Federer, And he talks about how there was a moment when tennis moved from being classical music to Metallica.

你知道吗？

You know?

在费德勒崛起时期，网坛曾出现过一种力量型底线选手的潮流。

And that there's a there was a sort of trend around the time that Federer became ascendant of power bassliners.

你知道，比如纳达尔，他的打法主要就是底线强力击球。

You know, like Nadal, for the most part, that was that's his game, is, is a lot of just power from the baseline.

当然，纳达尔在其他方面也做得很好，但强力底线是他的主要网球风格。

And, of course, that's a Nadal does a lot of other stuff very well, but that's the predominant mode of his tennis.

对吧？

Right?

就是用力量压制对手。

Is this, like, overpowering of the opponent.

这是一种非常强调肌肉力量的网球风格。

It's it's a very muscular sort of tennis.

而大卫·福斯特·华莱士对费德勒的评价是，他能够同时演奏古典音乐和金属乐队的作品。

And what David Foster Wallace says about Federer is that he somehow managed to play classical music and Metallica at the same time.

明白吗？

You know?

目睹那一刻犹如遇见神明。

And to watch that is like meeting God.

你懂吗？

You know?

亲临现场观看就像经历一场宗教体验。

To watch that in person is like a religious experience.

所以这正符合我对塔什实力的想象。

And so that that was very much what I was thinking about when I was thinking about just how good Tashi is.

电影尾声有个关键场景，塔什暗中找到帕特里克，要求他在即将与阿尔特的比赛中放水。

There's a crucial moment late on in the movie where Tashi secretly meets with Patrick to ask him to throw the upcoming match that he has against Art.

她这么做是出于对阿尔特的爱。

And She's doing this out of love for Art.

她想提振他的自信心。

She wants to boost his ego.

可以说，他们的婚姻正岌岌可危。

Arguably, their marriage is on the line.

这一切都与这场比赛息息相关。

It's tied up in this game.

她和帕特里克爆发了激烈争吵，最终在车内发生了关系。

She and Patrick have this explosive argument that leads to them having sex inside his car.

再次说到这部电影刻意为之的模糊性，关于那场戏有多少是预谋的，有多少是交易性质的，存在不少争议。

Again, in terms of the ambiguity of this film, the purposeful ambiguity, there is some debate as to how much of that was premeditated, how much of it was transactional, almost.

我很好奇，当你处理剧本这些内容时，你自己是否清楚？

I'm curious, again, when you approached all this on the page, were you aware?

你是让角色自主决定他们的行为吗？

Were you letting the characters dictate to you what they were doing?

你对那个场景中每个人行为的细节有什么解读？

What was your read on the granular detail of what everyone's doing in that scene?

嗯，我认为有时候人们做事的动机比他们自己意识到的更复杂，有时候人们并不完全清楚自己的动机。

Well, I think, again, sometimes people are doing things for more reasons than they know, you know, and sometimes people are not on top of their own motivations.

这对角色塑造来说是个非常有趣的状态，因为角色的言语和身体动作之间存在着张力。

And that's a very exciting place for a character to be because there's a tension between what a character is saying and what their body is doing.

你知道吗？

You know?

所以角色正在以他们无意的方式展现自己。

So a character is revealing themselves in ways that they're not intending.

我在写这些情节时，和观众观看时一样惊讶。

And I was just as surprised by all of that as I was writing it as I think people watching it probably are.

在电影创作的那个阶段，我确实在信任角色们去往他们想去的地方。

That was really at that point in the movie in writing the movie, I I was kind of trusting the characters to to go where they wanted to go.

所以。

So.

是的。

Yeah.

我喜欢你说的她某种程度上是出于对艺术的爱而这样做，因为我认为塔西确实有一部分是真心想让这段婚姻成功。

I mean, I think I like that you said that there is some that she is doing it in some respect out of love for art, because I do think there is a real part of Tashi that is genuinely trying to make this marriage work for her.

她足够了解自己，知道如果他现在放弃，如果他完全放弃自己的事业和潜力，在被迫之前就认输，她就无法再爱他了。

And she knows herself well enough to know that if he gives up right now, if he if she has to watch him completely give up on his career and on his potential and resign himself to, being done before he's forced to by, you know, time, that she will not be able to love him.

你知道吗？

You know?

她将无法为此继续陪伴。

She won't be able to be there for that.

所以就是这样。

So there's that.

还有，Art是Tashi通过他打了十年网球的那个人，或者无论多久。

There's also that Art is the person through whom Tashi has been playing tennis for ten years or however long it's been.

你知道吗？

You know?

所以她明白，一旦Art的网球生涯结束，她的网球生涯也就此终结。

And so she knows that the moment that Art's tennis career is over, that's the end of her tennis career.

而她还没准备好放弃，所以她需要这个。

And she's not ready to give that up, so she needs that.

你知道吗？

You know?

与此同时，她内心很可能确实有一部分非常想见帕特里克，非常想上那辆车，你知道，想帮帕特里克摆脱低谷，摆脱自怨自艾，摆脱那些狗屁倒灶的事。

And at the same time, she probably really there's a part of her that really wants to see Patrick and really wants to get into that car, you know, and wants to jolt Patrick out of his slump and out of his self pity and, you know, out of his bullshit.

所以我不确定她当时是否明白，自己真正追求的就是电影结尾发生的事——当所有人的底牌都摊在桌面上，他们都在某种程度上互相逼迫着展现最好的自己，某种程度上又展现出最赤裸的本性。

So I'm not sure that she knows at that moment that what she's really after is what ends up happening at the end of the movie, you know, where everybody's cards are out on the table and they're all pushing each other to, in some ways, be their best selves and, in some ways, be their, you know, most naked selves.

我不认为她对局面有足够掌控力来精心策划这一切的发展方向。

I don't know that she's got enough of a handle on the situation to to have fully planned that that's where she's trying to lead everything.

但我觉得她脑子里有很多互相矛盾的故事在解释自己为什么会上那辆车。

But I think she's got there's a lot of different competing stories that she's telling herself about why she's in that car.

而帕特里克就是那种会说'你就是想上我'的人。

And Patrick is the kind of guy who goes, you do wanna fuck me.

懂吗？

You know?

你在这儿就是因为想上我，只是你虚伪到连自己都不敢承认。

You're you're here because you wanna fuck me, and you're just so full of shit you won't admit it to yourself.

而这恰恰说明了她对帕特里克所有复杂感受的根源——无论是正面的还是负面的。

And that's that says everything about why she feels the way she does about Patrick, both good and bad.

你知道吗？

You know?

嗯，这把我们带到了那个令人难以置信的最终场景，特别是阿尔特和帕特里克最后对决时的那个瞬间。

Well, it leads us to this this incredible final scene, and in particular, this one moment during the the final match between Art and Patrick.

我记得第一次看这部电影的时候。

I remember the first time I saw the film.

当时影院里明显掀起一阵骚动，观众们意识到即将发生什么，并预感到我们将要看到的呼应场景及其全部含义。

There was this really noticeable wave moving through the cinema as people realized what was about to happen, and they anticipated the callback we were about to see and everything it would mean.

当然，在电影前半段，几个男生讨论过帕特里克发球时暗示他与塔希发生过关系的暗号。

So, Of course, earlier in the film, the guys discuss a signal, the way that Patrick serves that indicates that he slept with Tashi.

就像我说的，在影院里我注意到周围观众的反应，当大家意识到即将发生什么时，整个影厅都掠过一阵低语。

As I say, in the cinema, I noticed the people around me, this murmur sweep through the room as people realized what was about to happen.

这让我觉得设计得非常刻意。

That struck me as very purposeful.

能谈谈电影让观众提前预知那个瞬间的乐趣吗？

Can you tell me about the pleasure in the film letting the audience get ahead of the moment?

因为正如我所说，所有人都知道这一幕即将到来，整个影厅里弥漫着一种电流般的氛围，我认为这远比电影突然跳出来试图给你一个惊喜要震撼得多。

Because, as I say, everyone knew it was coming, and there was this electricity in the room that I think was much more powerful than if the film sprung on you and tried to surprise you with it.

是的。

Yeah.

嗯，这是我刚开始写剧本时脑海中最早浮现的画面之一——帕特里克用网球拍和球向阿尔特传递某种信息，他们拥有这种秘密暗号。

Well, that was one of the first images I had in my mind as I was starting to write the script, was this image of Patrick communicating communicating something to Art using a tennis racket and a ball, that they had this secret code.

我特别喜欢这个构思：角色们身处公开场合，在一个众目睽睽的表演空间里，却通过表演的载体只向彼此传递信息——看电影的观众能理解其中含义，但电影里的观众却不明就里。

I just loved the idea of the characters characters in public, in a very public space where everybody's looking at them, who are part of a kind of performance, communicating something to just each other in the space of that performance, that the audience watching the film would know what that means, but the audience in the film wouldn't know what that means.

明白吗？

You know?

与角色共享秘密的感觉很特别，我特别钟爱电影里出现这类情节。

That there's something about sharing a secret with the characters that I love when that kind of thing happens in movies.

比如想到《相见恨晚》这样的电影，大卫·里恩那部杰作，诺埃尔·科沃德的剧本——它的结构非常相似，电影开场我们看到两个人在火车站咖啡馆偶遇，

You know, I think about a movie like Brief Encounter, you know, the amazing David Lean movie, Noel Coward script, where it it's very similar in its structure, in that the movie starts where we see these two people running into each other seemingly at a cafe, at a train station.

他们凝视彼此的样子仿佛这场相遇对他们意味着整个世界。

And they're looking at each other like this meeting means the world to them.

然后这个女人，这个烦人的熟人，在他们旁边坐下，破坏了他们的重逢，毁了他们的秘密会面。

And then this woman, this annoying woman, who they who's an acquaintance, sits down next to them and ruins their reunion, ruins their secret meeting.

她完全不知道他们之间发生了什么，但我们已经直觉感到有非常深刻重要的事情正在发生，而这一切都被她毁了。

And she she has no idea what's going on between them, but we already intuit that something very deep and important is going on and that this has just completely ruined it.

然后我们通过整部电影来理解那次会面的背景。

And then we spend the whole film understanding the context of that meeting.

对吧？

Right?

这对我来说就像触电般震撼，因为它让我感觉自己是角色的共谋者。

And that to me is, like, completely electric because it makes me feel like I'm I'm a co conspirator with the characters.

明白吗？

You know?

所以在我为那个场景写设定之前，脑海中就已经有了那个时刻的画面。

So I had that image in my head of that moment before I even wrote the setup for that moment.

懂我意思吗？

You know?

我当时并不知道会怎样呈现这一幕

I didn't know how that was gonna be.

但我知道它的含义

I knew what it would mean.

明白吗？

You know?

我知道那将是帕特里克传递'我和塔希上过床'的信号，但我不确定这一幕会在电影前段哪里出现

I knew that that would be Patrick's signal to say I slept with Tashi, but I didn't know where that would show up earlier in the movie.

懂我意思吗？

You know?

但整个创作过程中，我始终在朝着那个时刻推进剧情

But the whole time I was writing the movie, I was writing it towards that moment.

我认为这个场景的关键在于——它是通过肢体动作完成的交流，无需语言，借助他们共通的网球语言

And I guess what was important to me about it is that it's it's a moment of communication through gesture, you know, without language and through this shared language they all have, which is tennis.

从某种意义上说，这可能是阿尔特最不愿听到的消息

And it's this thing that, in a way, like, it's the worst thing that Art could hear.

这是他最大的恐惧。

It's his biggest fear.

你知道吗？

You know?

这是塔西最害怕帕特里克会对他说的话。

It's Tashi's worst fear that Patrick is gonna say this to him.

但正是这件事让他们最终能够毫无顾忌地比赛，因为现在没有秘密了。

But it's the thing that then allows them to all play with abandon at the end because now there's no secrets.

所有的牌都摊在桌面上了。

All the cards are out on the table.

而且我们都知道这一点。

And and we know that.

你知道吗？

You know?

所以我非常高兴听到它在你们影院的观众中引起了共鸣，因为这正是我们想要的效果，这非常符合——你知道的，我觉得如果你要拍一部关于体育的电影，它就应该像体育赛事一样充满激情。

So I'm I'm thrilled to hear that it it reverberated through the audience in in your cinema, because that was very much that was very much the intent, and that was very much kind of the you know, I I feel like if you write a movie about sports, it should feel like a sports event.

你明白我的意思吗？

You know what I mean?

我认为人们经常误解体育电影应该怎样呈现，他们以为要捕捉NBA总决赛的能量，就得把电影背景设在NBA总决赛现场。

And I think people often misunderstand what that means when it comes to sports movies and that they think that the way to capture the energy of an NBA final is to set a movie at the NBA finals.

但事实是，至少对我来说，这样的电影永远不可能比真正的NBA总决赛更精彩。

But the truth about that is, for me at least, that there's no way that that movie is gonna be as good as the NBA finals.

明白吗？

You know?

所以赌注必须是个人的。

So the stakes have to be personal.

因此对我来说，史上最成功的篮球电影之一是《单挑》，因为电影结尾那场父子之间的街头篮球赛——如果你是个路过的陌生人，根本不会知道这两人不仅是为生活而战，更是为他们共同的历史认知而战，他们正在化解那段痛苦的关系。

And so for me, the one of the most successful basketball movies ever is He Got Game, you know, because the the culminating pickup game that ends that movie between a father and a son is something that if you were a stranger walking by on the street, you would have no idea that these two were playing not just for their lives, but for their whole shared understanding of their history together, you know, that they were working out their entire tortured relationship.

但由于我们了解内情，我们看到这场看似毫无意义的比赛时，就明白一切都危在旦夕。

But because we know, we see this seemingly meaningless game, and we understand that everything is on the line.

懂吗？

You know?

是啊。

Yeah.

我特别喜欢这个理念，体育运动成为承载多年来未言之事的容器。

I love that idea of, like, the sport being the vessel for all the things that have gone unsaid over the years.

我觉得这真的很特别。

I think that's really special.

所以你作为编剧罕见地出现在片场，拍摄时遇到了挑战。

So you're there on set, which is a rarity as a writer, shooting challenges.

在这整个过程中，卢卡给了你一本威廉·巴勒斯的《酷儿》，并要求你一夜读完。

And at some point during all this, Luca gives you a book, William s Burrows Queer, and he tells you to read it in a night.

贾斯汀，你最初有什么感想？

What were your first impressions, Justin?

带我回顾一下那个晚上的阅读经历。

Take me through that evening's reading.

如果我没记错的话，你之前对巴勒斯有所了解，只是还没读过《酷儿》。

If I'm correct in remembering, you had some familiarity with Burroughs before, but you just hadn't read Queer.

对吧？

Right?

是的。

Yeah.

我读过《裸体午餐》，也读过一些《雅赫书信集》。

I had read Naked Lunch, and I had read some of the the Yahe letters.

而且我知道流行文化中伯勒斯的那种公众形象，你知道的，就是那种粗犷、非常酷、严肃，有时又充满男子气概的作家形象。

And I was aware of the sort of public persona of Burroughs that existed in popular culture, you know, that this sort of gruff, very cool, austere, you know, at times very macho kind of writer.

这就是我对伯勒斯的印象。

That was an image of Burroughs that I had.

然后我读了这本书，惊讶地发现了两件事。

And then I read this book, and I was surprised to find two things.

一是这基本上是个直白的爱情故事，讲述两个复杂人物之间的线性关系，这对伯勒斯来说感觉有些激进。

One was that, for the most part, it was a very straightforward love story between these two very complicated people that was told in a linear way, which felt, kind of radical for Burroughs.

但更让我惊讶的是发现了威廉·李这个角色——伯勒斯的另一个自我，他既不酷也不严肃，某种程度上虽然保留了这些特质，但更是个温柔、尴尬、为爱痴狂的甜蜜男人，他不知道该说什么，有时也不知道何时闭嘴，会在试图接近心仪对象后尴尬地僵在房间中央，然后看着那人离开。

But, also, I was surprised to find this character, William Lee, who was the Burroughs' alter ego, who was not cool and not austere and not, gruff, or was those things to some extent, but was also this very sort of tender and embarrassing and lovesick and sweet man who didn't know how to say the right thing and would sometimes not know when to shut up and would, you know, get stuck in the middle of the room after he tries to approach the object of his desire, and then that guy goes away.

所以现在他不知道该往哪儿走。

And so now he doesn't know where he's supposed to go.

你知道吗？

You know?

他就那样尴尬地僵在原地，纠结是该坐下还是回到朋友身边。

And he's, like, awkwardly stuck trying to figure out whether he sits down or whether he goes back to his friend.

而那个角色让我感觉很有共鸣。

And that guy felt like someone I could relate to.

你明白吗？

You know?

那个角色让我感觉触手可及。

That guy felt like someone I could reach out and touch.

所以我完全被这个角色吸引住了。

And so I was really taken with this character.

这本书是巴勒斯在等待杀害第二任妻子琼·沃尔默的审判期间写的。

The book was written while Burroughs was awaiting trial for killing his second wife, Joan Volmer.

你认为巴勒斯讲述的这个故事，是如何承载那种沉重感，或是如何反映他生命中的那个时刻的？

How do you think the story, as Burroughs told it, how do you think it carried the weight or managed to reflect in some way that moment in his life?

嗯，这是个有趣的问题。

Well, it's an interesting question.

他在事后写的许多文章中谈到——其中一些被收录在我第一次读的这本书的版本里——关于杀害妻子这件事如何萦绕着《酷儿》的创作，并在某种程度上使他最初能够成为一名作家，仿佛那之后发生的某种断裂让他得以接受自己作家的身份。

He talked in a lot of essays he wrote after the fact, and some of which are included in the the version of the book that I read, for the first time about how the killing of his wife was this event that haunted the writing of queer and in some way enabled him to be a writer in the first place, that there was some sort of rupture that happened after that, that made it possible for him to accept that he was a writer.

但当然，你知道，这对他而言是段极其可怕、充满创伤的经历，而他要为此负责。

But then, of course, you know, was this, like, a a completely horrible, horrific, traumatic thing that he went through and that he was responsible for.

所以在改编这本书时，我确实面临一个问题：该将多少巴勒斯的生平带入故事中。

So it was a real question as I was adapting the book how much of Burroughs biography I wanted to bring into the story.

因为在某种程度上，感觉如果不提及他妻子的死亡，就无法讲述《酷儿》这本书的故事。

Because on one level, it felt like queer you can't tell the story of the book of queer without somehow bringing in, the death of his wife.

但与此同时，我并不想把电影拍成威廉·巴勒斯的传记片。

But at the same time, I didn't wanna make the William s Burroughs biopic.

我想写一部关于威廉·李这个虚构角色的电影，你知道的，他与威廉·巴勒斯并非一一对应的关系。

I wanted to write a movie about this character, William Lee, you know, who's fictional and who doesn't, yeah, who who is not doesn't have a one to one relationship with William Burroughs.

我想这种表现方式就是很晚才出现的那一幕——李用放在尤金头上的酒杯射击的场景。

I suppose the way that manifested then is there's just one scene very late on in which Lee shoots Eugene with a shot glass on his head.

如果我没记错的话，这就是巴勒斯将琼的死归咎于威廉·特尔式特技的那件事，尽管那个故事存在一些出入。

And if I remember correctly, that's the William Tell stunt that Burroughs blamed Joan's death on, although there's some discrepancies to that story.

所以这就是你在这部改编作品中带入的巴勒斯外部生活的一粒微小种子？

So that was the little tiny seed of Burroughs' outer life that you brought into this adaptation then?

是的。

Yeah.

这感觉是最合适的引入方式。

That felt like the way to bring it in.

因为你知道，巴勒斯这个人的真实情况——当他在墨西哥城的生活逐渐展开时，当他遇见路易斯·马克（尤金·阿勒顿的原型人物）时。

Because there's you know, the truth of Burroughs, the man, at the time that this his life in Mexico City was unfolding and at the time that he met Louis Marker, who is the man that Eugene Allerton is based on.

巴勒斯当时是和妻子孩子们一起住在墨西哥城的。

Burroughs was in Mexico City with his wife and his kids.

对吧？

You know?

事实上，他们经常一起出去玩。

And in fact, they all hung out together.

比如，实际上路易斯·马克尔就在巴勒斯枪杀琼的那晚派对上，并亲眼目睹了事件。

Like, in fact, Lewis Marker was there at the party the night that Burroughs shot Joan, and witnessed it.

但这些完全没有被纳入《酷儿》中。

But that's not included at all in queer.

这些都是我通过研究真实的巴勒斯本人所了解到的信息。

That's just stuff I know from doing research about Burroughs, the the actually existing person.

所以我觉得如果把这些都加进去，就会突然变成试图追求所谓的'巴勒斯真相'。

So it felt like to bring all of that in would all of a sudden make it an attempt to get at the, quote, unquote, truth of Burroughs.

而我对此完全不感兴趣，我认为卢卡也完全不感兴趣。

And I wasn't interested in that at all, and I don't think Luca was interested in that at all.

你知道，我们真正想做的是按照书本表面价值来呈现，同时也理解这本书在很多方面是未完成的，我们需要做出一些调整让这本书在电影世界里显得完整。

You know, we were interested in really taking the book at face value, but also understanding that the book in many ways was unfinished and that there were some gestures we were gonna have to make to make the book feel like complete in the in the world of film.

你们在这方面的指导原则是什么？

And what was your North Star for that?

显然，书中最大的改动是他们没有获得死藤水。

Obviously, like, the big change is that in the book, they don't get the Ayahuasca.

你曾形容这本书像是透过一扇门匆匆一瞥后门就被关上，但你们决定穿过那扇门。

You've described it as the book offering this glimpse through a door that then is quickly shut, but you guys decided to go through that door.

当你们做出这个改变，当你们穿过那扇门时，你们依靠哪些东西来确保自己即使偏离原著也忠于其精神？

As you made that change, as you stepped through that door, what were the kind of things that you clung to to make sure you were staying true to the spirit of the book even though you were departing?

对我来说，那个如同鼓点般始终指引我的核心，能让书鲜活起来、成为全书基石的，始终是莉·安·艾灵顿的心理状态，以及双方那种想要与彼此同步的相互渴望。

Well, my the sort of drumbeat that I clung to as the the thing that would make the book sing and that would make that would feel like home base for the book was always, the psychology of Leigh Ann Ellington and the sort of mutual desire on both of their parts to get in sync with one each other with one another.

这句话其实是从卢卡那里偷来的，但我认为它非常好地概括了他们之间的关系——这不是一个关于单相思的故事。

That you know, and this is a line I'm stealing from Luca, but I think it's a very good summation of how the relationship between the two of them works, which is that it's not a story of, unrequited love.

这是一个关于不同步的爱情的故事。

It's a story of unsynchronized love.

这两个非常复杂的人，正以各自混乱的方式试图达到同步。

That there are these two very complicated people who are trying in their own messed up ways to get in sync.

而当他们真正同步的瞬间，有时会非常美好，他们之间会形成完全敞开的通道。

And then there are these moments where they are in sync, and sometimes it's really beautiful, and there's this open channel between them.

而有时候这种同步又令人恐惧。

And then sometimes it's terrifying.

存在着这种得到你想要的或你以为自己想要的东西的恐怖。

And it's there's this horror of getting what you wanted or what you think you want.

对我来说，他们服用死藤水并不会...或者说，我觉得他们真正踏上这次旅程并在丛林中获得所求，只会让他们之间的舞蹈变得更加复杂。

And it didn't feel to me like them getting the Ayahuasca would, or rather, it felt like them actually going through with this trip and getting what they were seeking after in the jungle, would only make the dance between the two of them more complicated.

你明白吗？

You know?

这不会让事情变得简单。

It wouldn't simplify things.

实际上，谁能保证他们会以相同的方式反应呢？或者说会如他们预期的那样反应？

It would actually there who's to say they would react in the same way, you know, or that they would react as they expected?

谁又能说仅仅因为你们有过心灵感应的体验，就意味着从此幸福美满？

And who's to say that just because you have that experience where you are telepathically communicating to each other, who's who's to say that that means it's happily ever after?

懂我意思吗？

You know?

生活不是那样的。

Life doesn't work like that.

爱情也不是那样的。

Love doesn't work like that.

而且，你知道，那种...那种方式不对...是的。

And, you know, that's a sort of that's that's not how it yeah.

事情不是那样运作的。

That's not how it works.

你不能...你不能这么轻易地摆脱问题。

That doesn't you you can't get out of the problem that easily.

明白吗？

You know?

你提到卢卡一直想讲这个故事很久了。

You mentioned how Luca had been wanting to tell this story for a long time.

他其实在人生的某个阶段曾为这部电影写过一版被弃用的剧本。

He actually wrote an abandoned script for the film at some point in his life.

他给你看了吗？

Did he show you?

他有跟你提过那个剧本吗？

Did he tell you about that script?

他跟你分享了多少关于这部电影早期构思的内容？

Like, to what degree did he share with you kind of earlier iteration of the film that he'd been planning?

没有。

No.

我最近是在一个问答环节才了解到这件事的。

I learned about that in a q and a recently.

是啊。

Yeah.

不过他说过总有一天会给我看的。

But and I I I and he said he'll one day show it to me.

我觉得他永远都不会给我看的。

I don't think he ever will.

但这并不让我感到意外。

But but that doesn't surprise me.

我是说，你知道，这是卢卡长期以来一直非常渴望拍摄的一部电影。

I mean, you know, it was a it was a movie that Luca was really desperate to make for a long time.

所以当他给我这本书并告诉我这些时，说这是他自青少年时期就想拍的电影，我感到既兴奋又荣幸，同时也充满责任感和真正的忧虑，因为我知道我必须尽力帮助卢卡完成这部对他非常重要的电影。

And so when he gave me the book and told me all of that, that this was a movie he had been wanting to make since he was a teenager, I felt this tremendous sense of both excitement and, you know, honor, but also responsibility and real trepidation because I knew that I had to try to help Luca make this movie that was really important to him.

我们的一个优势是，当我们一起在波士顿拍摄《挑战者》时，我就开始创作《酷儿》了。

And so one of the benefits that we had is that we were in Boston together making Challengers as I was starting to write queer.

所以在动笔之前，我们就已经对这部电影的愿景进行了大量讨论。

And so we got to talk about the vision for the movie a lot before I even put pen to paper.

我们真正达成了共识：如何尊重原著，如何与原著有所区别，以及我们认为书中哪些内容是核心要素。

And we got to really get on the same page about how we wanted to honor the book, how we wanted to depart from the book, and also what we thought was essential in the book.

你明白吗？

You know?

除此之外，当我开始写作时，我每天都会和卢卡一起从片场回来，看着他拍摄《挑战者》并协助他完成这部作品。

So then added to that, as I started to write, I was coming from set every day with Luca, watching him make challengers and helping him make challengers.

所以我当时是带着卢卡和他的电影理念回家继续创作的

And so I was then coming home and writing with Luca and his cinema in mind.

你知道吗？

You know?

所以我其实很自私地在写一部自己迫不及待想看他执导的电影

So I was really selfishly writing a movie that I was excited to watch him direct.

这基本上就是我写剧本时的指导方针——如何打造我梦想中的卢卡电影

And that was kind of my my MO as I went through writing the script was just how can I make, like, my dream Luca movie?

明白吗？

You know?

我该如何写出我最想看到卢卡执导的梦幻之作

How can I write, like, the the the dream of what I would love to watch Luca direct?

虽然这种创作方式听起来很疯狂

Which is it's a crazy way to write a movie.

这和我以往写过的任何作品都截然不同

It's a very it's it's completely different from anything I've ever written.

你知道吗？

You know?

是啊。

Yeah.

同时构建两部电影一定很奇怪，一部正在拍摄过程中，而另一部还处于非常早期的阶段。

It must have been strange constructing both films at the same time, one of which was in the process of being shot and the other of which was really in those early stages.

如果说《挑战》这部电影讲述的是这些非常年轻的角色，他们的欲望全都与机会、未来和前方的荣耀紧密相连。

If Challenges is a film about these very youthful characters whose desires are all wrapped up in opportunity and the future and the glory ahead.

有趣的是这部电影呈现了完全相反的一面。

It's interesting that this was a film that was the flip side of that.

你塑造的这个角色是一位年长的绅士，他渴望得到那个年轻男子，这种情感中蕴含着某种非常脆弱的东西。

You had this character who was an older gentleman, he's longing for this younger man, and There's something very vulnerable in that.

电影中有几个时刻，他因为年龄、因为时光流逝这类原因，感觉与渴望对象之间隔着难以逾越的距离。

There are times in the film where he just feels so apart from this object of his desires because of his age and because of the years on the clock and all that sort of thing.

你能谈谈这两部电影如何像兄妹般存在，以及它们如何通过年龄视角对欲望概念采取截然不同的处理方式吗？

Can can you tell me about, like, the two films as siblings and the two films as kind of, like, having opposite kind of approaches to the idea of desire through the lens of age?

从某种意义上说，尽管李这个角色是个中年人，但我认为他身上有种令人难以置信的青春特质，有时甚至显得非常孩子气，像青少年一样。

I mean, it's in a way, though, I think the character of Lee, even though he is a middle aged man, I find there's something incredibly youthful about him, that there's something very and at times very childish and, like, adolescent about him.

你知道吗？

You know?

就像，我觉得我与他共鸣的很多特质在于，他就像一只渴望爱情的小狗。

Like, I think about a lot of what I related to in him was this sort of, like, he's a real puppy for for love.

明白吗？

You know?

很多时候他都是个为爱痴狂的傻瓜。

He's a real fool for love a lot of times.

而且他总是试图把好事做得太过火。

And he's very he's always trying to push a good thing too far.

懂吗？

You know?

比如，在他与阿勒顿关系的早期阶段，有这样一个场景：他们原本相处，阿勒顿开始穿裤子时，李却从后面凑上来帮他整理裤腰。

Like, there's this moment early on in his relationship with Allerton where they're having a good thing going on, and Allerton is starting to put his pants on, and Lee comes up behind him and helps him with his trousers.

这感觉非常，嗯，居家。

And it feels very, like, domestic.

而阿勒顿对此退缩了，因为太早或者太过了。

And Allerton recoils from it because it's it's too soon or it's too much.

你知道吗？

You know?

那种情感的倾泻或者说那种，好吧，我们结婚吧之类的冲动。

And that kind of outpouring or that kind of, like, desire to just like, okay, let's let's go get married, you know, or whatever it is.

我不认为在这两个人的情况下会说出这样的话。

I don't think in the case of these two, that was something that would be said.

但对我来说这感觉非常青少年化。

But that feels very like teenage to me.

你知道，这非常像17岁时的恋爱感觉，你会觉得除了你我谁都不可能爱上。

You know, that feels very much like the way that you're in love when you're 17 and you're like, I couldn't possibly love anybody except for you.

懂吗？

You know?

所以在某种程度上，我觉得威廉·李这样的角色在精神上比塔西·邓肯年轻得多。

So in a way, I think, like, spiritually, a character like William Lee is a lot younger than a character like Tashi Duncan.

你懂吗？

You know?

但确实，我不知道年龄在那里是怎么运作的。

But so, yeah, I don't I I couldn't I I don't know how how how age works there.

明白吗？

You know?

某种程度上，阿勒顿非常不成熟，但又比李成熟得多。

And in a way, Allerton is very immature, but also much more mature than than Lee.

懂我意思吗？

You know?

这些就是...

These are yeah.

这些家伙生活在非常特殊的时代和非常特殊的地方。

These are these are guys living in a very particular time in a very particular place.

你知道吗？

You know?

特别是阿勒顿，他是个前军人，你知道的，就像是在墨西哥开始人生新篇章的外籍人士。

And Allerton specifically is this ex military, you know, like, expat in in Mexico starting a next chapter of his life.

他经历过一些生活，但很少提及那些往事。

He's he's lived a bit of a life, you know, that he doesn't talk about very much.

但从某种意义上说，李一直在逃离不同的生活，或者说被不同的生活放逐。

But, yeah, and in a sense, Lee keeps running away from different lives or or getting exiled from different lives.

你刚才提到墨西哥作为故事背景。

You mentioned Mexico there as the backdrop.

那里既有绝美的风景，也有种他所在外籍社区的炼狱感。

There is such beauty, but there's also kind of a sense of purgatory to the kind of expat community that he's part of there.

能谈谈你如何构思这个世界观吗？你从研究中获取了什么素材，为什么觉得这个环境最适合李经历这一切？

You tell me about approaching that world and what you brought from your own research to the table and how that felt like the right environment for Lee to be undergoing this experience?

有件事很重要，我和卢卡很早就讨论过：这不是一部写实描绘1950年代墨西哥城的电影，我们不会实地取景寻找仍保留50年代风貌的城区。

Well, something that was important and that Luca and I discussed really early on was that this was not a movie set in a realistic Mexico City of the nineteen fifties, you know, and that we weren't gonna go shoot on location and try to find the parts of Mexico City that still felt like nineteen fifties Mexico.

我们并非试图重现一个真实存在过的世界。

We weren't trying to recreate a world that ever actually existed.

这其实是巴勒斯脑海中的墨西哥城，甚至片中角色光顾的酒吧完全基于其他城市的酒吧原型，比如圣路易斯、奥地利、巴黎等世界各地的酒吧。

It's really a Mexico City that exists in Burroughs' mind, you know, to the point where there are bars that the characters in this movie go to that are, like, fully based on bars in other cities, you know, in Saint Louis or Austria or, you know, Paris or all over the place.

因此我认为卢卡选择拍摄和构建这部电影的方式——我们几乎全部在奇纳奇塔的摄影棚完成拍摄——你确实能漫步在威廉·李的墨西哥城中。

And so I think the way that Luca chose to shoot the movie and the way that he chose to build the movie, which is that we we shot everything or almost everything on sound stages at at Chinachita, you know, and you could really walk through William Lee's Mexico City.

这里简直像迪士尼乐园一样。

It was like like Disney World or something.

我们拥有18个摄影棚，你可以走遍整个场景。

Like, you could we had, like, 18 stages, and you could walk through the whole place.

这太不可思议了。

It was incredible.

但我们始终在构建这个男人脑海中关于墨西哥的某种梦境。

But we were always constructing a sort of dream of of a Mexico that existed in this guy's head.

我觉得这个世界和这些角色有趣之处在于，他们是非常封闭的美国侨民群体。

What I found interesting about this world and these characters is that they're very much these American expats who are who keep to themselves.

要知道，他们与墨西哥社会有很多互动。

You know, they're they have a lot of interaction with Mexican society.

他们会去墨西哥的酒吧。

They go to Mexican bars.

他们吃墨西哥食物。

They eat Mexican food.

呃，不对。

Well, no.

那不是真的。

That's not true.

实际上他们根本不吃墨西哥食物。

They really don't eat Mexican food, actually.

这些人其实对融入墨西哥文化没什么兴趣，不像如今生活在墨西哥城的美国侨民可能会对自己的美国人身份感到愧疚或不安。

They really, though, are, like, not that interested in in engaging with Mexican culture in a way that an American expat today living in Mexico City might feel some guilt or some self consciousness about being an American in this other country.

这些人有自己的专属酒吧。

These guys kind of they have their own bar.

你知道吗？

You know?

他们大多不吃墨西哥菜，而且与周围墨西哥人的互动很多都是敌对的。

They they mostly eat not Mexican food, and a lot of their interactions with with the Mexicans around them are antagonistic.

明白吗？

You know?

电影中我最喜欢的台词之一出自巴勒斯，由阿勒顿说出——他们因为讨价还价去李公寓的车费，和出租车司机吵了起来。

One of my favorite lines in the movie is a line that comes from Burroughs that Allerton says where they get into this fight with a cab driver because they're haggling over how much, it's it's gonna cost to get to Lee's apartment.

出租车司机骂了句'去你妈的'就开走了。

And the cab driver says, fuck you, and drives off.

阿勒顿面无表情地说：'有时候我觉得他们不喜欢我们'——我特别喜欢这句台词，因为这是李和阿勒顿第一次意识到他们有着相同的幽默感，那种干涩、愤世嫉俗的默契。

And Allerton, just very deadpan, says, sometimes I think they don't like us, which I think is, like why I like that line so much is because it's one of the first times that Lee and Allerton understand that they share a sense of humor, you know, that they share this kind of dry, cynical Yeah.

他们觉得同类型的事情好笑。

That they find the same kinds of things funny.

所以对我来说这是个有趣的混合体：既要研究当时墨西哥城的真实面貌，又要探究巴勒斯对墨西哥城的印象。

So it was a it was an interesting mixture for me as I was researching about trying to find out as much as I could about what Mexico City was actually like at that time, and then also trying to find out as much about what Burroughs' impression of Mexico City was like.

你知道吗？

You know?

因为如果你读过巴勒斯为《酷儿》写的序言，他把墨西哥描述成一个暴力就像融入水中、渗入土地般无处不在的地方。

Because if if you read Burroughs' introduction to the to queer, he talks about Mexico as a place where violence is just, like, baked into the water, you know, baked into the the the ground.

是啊。

Yeah.

但当你看到1950年代墨西哥城的新闻影片时，那里美得惊人——建筑上绚丽的色彩、那些汽车，一切看起来都那么纯净而壮丽。

But then you look at newsreel footage from Mexico City in the nineteen fifties, and it's like this beautiful, you know, it's like gorgeous colors on the buildings and these cars, and it looks like pristine and and and and gorgeous.

所以这种矛盾对我来说很有趣。

So it's that, you know, that contradiction was interesting to me.

这部电影和原著一样名为《酷儿》，但几十年来这个词的含义已经发生了巨大变化。

The film is called queer, as the book was, but of course, in the intervening decades, that word has undergone such an evolution.

你是否曾考虑过更改片名？

Was there ever any kind of moment where you contemplated changing the title?

贾斯汀，这个片名对你来说意味着什么？

What does the title mean to you, Justin?

可以说，这其中隐含的问题是为什么这个词对这个故事如此重要。

Suppose wrapped up in that is the question of why that word is so central to this story.

显然，主角李正在经历一段关于他性取向的旅程。

Obviously, character of Lee is like, he's undergoing on a journey with his sexuality.

你会如何描述这段旅程？

How would you describe what that journey is?

我从未想过要更改标题。

It never occurred to me to change the title.

我认为这个标题很棒，而且我觉得很有意思的是，伯勒斯在五十年代选择用'酷儿'作为书名时，它有一种含义。

I think the title's fantastic, and I I think it's kind of it's really interesting how Burroughs choosing to name the book queer in the nineteen fifties meant one thing.

而当这本书在八十年代实际出版时，它又有了非常不同的含义。

And then when the book was actually published in the eighties, it meant something very different.

现在到了2024年，它的含义又完全不同了。

And now in 2024, it means something very different.

然而它同时也保留了所有相同的含义。

And yet it also means all the same things too.

你知道吗？

You know?

在1950年代，'酷儿'这个词很大程度上是个侮辱性词汇。

Queer was very much a slur in the nineteen fifties.

即使它已被酷儿群体所采用，如今仍有人将其用作侮辱性词汇。

It's still used as a slur today, you know, even if it's been adopted by the queer community.

许多人正欣然以酷儿自称。

Many people are readily identifying themselves as queer.

我觉得在我们俩居住的城市里，都不难找到将其用作侮辱词汇的人。

I think you don't have to look very hard to find people who use it as a slur in, you know, both of the cities that you and I live in even.

你明白吗？

You know?

我不太舒服去对这个词对我的意义，或者它在文化中、世界上的意义做出什么宏大宣言。

I feel uncomfortable, like, making some grand pronouncement about what that word means to me or what what that word means to the in in culture or to the world or something.

我并不认为自己适合发表这类宣言。

I don't really think I'm I'm the appropriate person to to make that kind of pronouncement.

我认为与这个角色相关且让我觉得有趣的是，伯勒斯在书中两次写到的这句话。

I do think what I found interesting about it as it relates to the character is this phrase that Burroughs wrote two times in the book.

这句话在书中出现了两次。

It shows up two times in the book.

第一次是李两次说的：'我不是同性恋'。

And it it first, it's Lee says it both times, which is, I'm not queer.

'我是脱离肉体的'。

I'm disembodied.

当我读到这句话时，它让我感到一阵窒息。

And I when I read that, it kind of knocked the wind out of me.

我觉得这句话既深刻又令人不安。

I just found it so so kind of profound and so so destabilizing.

你知道吗？

You know?

我觉得无论这本书与'酷儿'这个词对角色和伯勒斯写作背景的关系如何，你都能从这句话中找到答案。

And I felt like whatever the relationship that the book has to what the word queer means for the characters and for the context in which Burroughs was writing, you can find it in that phrase.

你知道吗？

You know?

我不想把自己的解读强加于人，但这个短语确实成为了我创作这本书时的重要指引。

And I don't wanna impose my interpretation of that phrase on anybody, but that that was kind of the that became a real guiding light for me as I was going through writing the book.

电影中有种逐渐沉入抒情诗意的过程，从一开始就通过这些细小的闪烁片段呈现。

There is this real descent in the film into this lyricism, and it's there from the beginning in these small flickers.

有个场景里酒吧电视的雪花噪点几乎要渗入现实生活。

We have this moment where the TV static almost bleeds into real life, this TV that's in the bar.

到影片结尾时，我们进入了一种如梦似幻的拍摄模式，显然这与叙事中死藤水的使用密切相关。

By the end of the film, we're in this mode of filmmaking where it's so dreamlike and so strange, and obviously a lot of that is narratively tied up in the Ayahuasca.

你能谈谈是如何找到那些生动意象的吗？当李的意识开始扩展，电影变得越来越富有诗意时。

Can you tell me, did you have a process for finding the really vivid imagery as Lee's mind started to expand and the film did become more and more lyrical?

这很有趣。

That's interesting.

其实很多灵感都来自巴勒斯，即便是那些偏离原著文字的部分，也依然保持着巴勒斯作品的世界观和精神内核——至少我希望如此。

I mean, a lot of it comes from Burroughs, even though even the stuff that departs from the strict text of the book, it was still kind of within the world and within the spirit, I hope, of Burroughs.

其中很多灵感来源于与卢卡关于他脑海中已有画面的对话，甚至在我开始写作之前就有了。

And a lot of it comes from conversations with Luca about images that were in his head already before I even started writing.

你知道吗？

You know?

我是说，电影里有很多对绘画作品的引用。

I mean, there's a lot of references to, like, paintings in the in the movie.

很多画作出自迈克尔·博伦曼斯之手，他在片中扮演基多（或不是基多）的那位医生。

A lot of paintings by Michael Borenmans, who plays the the doctor in Quito or not Quito.

对，就是那个。

The yeah.

就是拒绝给李提供鸦片的那位医生。

The doctor who refuses to give Lee the opium.

哦，对。

Oh, yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

那个人是卢卡的朋友，一位相当有名的画家，他的几幅画作在电影中被卢卡直接引用，卢卡早就想这么做了。

That guy is a quite famous painter who Luca's friends with, who there are some paintings of his that Luca very directly referenced in the movie, and he knew he wanted to do that.

所以这些都是我早已内化的东西。

So that was stuff I was I had internalized.

你知道吗？

You know?

但说到旅程或后续场景的许多意象时，我认为我多年剧作家的工作经历让我能传递很多东西——我写的舞台指导更多是为了唤起共鸣，或者说是一种邀请，而非严格的指令手册。

But then when it comes to a lot of the, certainly, the imagery of the trip or of the sequence following it, I think I was able to carry a lot over from my years working as a playwright in that a lot of the stage directions I would write in a play are meant to be evocative, or they're meant to be a kind of invitation rather than a strict instruction manual.

因此我必须相信，我可以把某种感觉、想法或实验性邀请交给卢卡，而他会用艺术化的方式处理它。

And so I kind of had to trust that I could hand over a feeling or an idea or the an invitation for an experiment to Luca and that he would do something artful with it.

明白吗？

You know?

总之，这个剧本我不可能为其他人写，也大概不会为其他人写。

Which is all to say, like, this is not a script I think I could have written for anybody else, and it's not a script I probably would have written for anybody else.

你知道，我写这个剧本完全是因为知道卢卡会执导它。

You know, it was very much a script that I wrote because I knew Luca was going to direct it.

所以我写作很大程度上是为了启发他，给他制作这部梦寐以求的电影所需的素材。

And so I was writing very much to prompt him and to give him what he needed to make this movie that he had been dreaming about.

明白吗？

You know?

所以，是的。

So those yeah.

这些部分写作时并不是说它们很开放。

So a lot of those sections are written as a it's not that they're open.

它们描述了将要发生的事情，但并没有规定具体该如何构建，如果这说得通的话。

They are descriptive of what's going to happen, but they're not prescriptive about exactly how it's going to be constructed, if that makes sense.

是的。

Yeah.

那些画面会在我的记忆中留存很久。

A lot of that imagery is going to stay with me for a long time.

我也是。

Me too.

是啊。

Yeah.

我能否也问一下，为什么决定将李塑造成这样一个虚弱的人物形象？

Can I ask as well about the decision to show Lee as this kind of frail person?

我觉得他可能处于临终状态。

I think potentially on his deathbed.

确实，他爬上了一张没有床单的床。

Certainly, he crawls onto a bed without a sheet.

实际上，那真的只是一张床垫。

In fact, it's really just a mattress.

而窗外是那扇巨大、美丽的窗户。

And outside is this big, beautiful window.

那里有布满飞机和云朵的蓝天。

There's this blue sky full of planes and clouds.

为什么选择以这样的画面作为电影的完美结尾呢？

Why was that, like, the perfect note to end the film on?

我们确切知道巴勒斯去世时穿的衣服，或者说他下葬时的穿着，而李在那一幕中穿的就是同样的衣服。

We know exactly what Burroughs was wearing when he died, or we we know exactly what he's wear what he's buried in, and that's what Lee is wearing in that scene.

我们还知道巴勒斯生命末期的另一件事，就是他仍在写作并思考路易斯·马克尔这个人——阿勒顿这个角色就是以他为原型创作的。

And something else we know about Burroughs at the end of his life was that he was still writing and thinking about Lewis Marker, the guy who Allerton is based on.

片尾播放的特伦特与阿提克斯创作的歌曲，其歌词正是出自卢卡之手。

And there's a song that ends the it plays in the end credits by Trent and Atticus with lyrics that are from Luca.

这些歌词实际上取自巴勒斯生前的最后文字记录——他生前录制的最后文字，而他写下的最后一个词是'爱'。

And what those lyrics are are they're taken from the last bit of writing that Burroughs ever did, the last recording recorded writing that Burroughs ever did, and the last word he ever wrote was love.

因此在讲述这个与巴勒斯人生故事紧密交织的角色时，这种处理方式——让他依然思念着这位生命中的挚爱——似乎是最恰当的告别。

And so it felt like in telling the story of this character, which is so tied up in the story of Burroughs and the sort of psychic and emotional world of Burroughs, it felt like an appropriate way to to leave this character, you know, and to have him still be thinking about this person who was this great love of his life.

是的。

Yeah.

除此之外我真的不知该说什么。

I I don't know really what to say beyond that.

我觉得这一幕非常感人。

I I find it very touching, that scene.

而那实际上是我们为这部电影做的第一次服装试装，就是丹尼尔穿着那套服装化着那个妆。

And that that was actually the first costume fitting we did for the movie, was Daniel in that outfit and with that makeup.

你知道吗？

You know?

那是在我们抵达罗马拍摄电影前几个月的事。

That was, like, months before we showed up in Rome to make the movie.

那是丹尼尔穿上的第一套服装。

That was the first, thing that Daniel put on.

我们所有人都对此感到惊叹不已。

And we were all just, like, amazed by it.

这两部背靠背的电影真是令人难以置信的双重杰作，贾斯汀。

It's an incredible, like, double hander, these two films back to back, Justin.

通过连续制作这两部电影，你对自己的技艺和叙事方式有了哪些新的认识？

What have you learned about your craft and about storytelling from from making these two films in succession?

我是说，实在太多了，多到我无法一一列举。

I mean, so so much and more than I could catalog.

你知道吗，我觉得《挑战者》这个项目真正的好处在于，卢卡不仅邀请了我，还坚持要求我必须参与现场拍摄和前期制作，剧本有任何改动都必须由我来完成，这是一种真正全方位的融入，作为编剧这是不可多得的待遇，也是大多数人永远无法体验到的。

You know, I think one of the real benefits of the process of Challengers was that Luca not just invited me, but kind of insisted that I was on set and in preproduction, and that if anything changed in the script, it was gonna be me who was doing it and that it was, like, this real complete inclusion, which is not something that you can take for granted as a writer and not something that most people ever experience.

明白吗？

You know?

对我来说，那个片场就像是电影学院。

And what that effectively ended up being like for me was that that set was like film school.

懂吗？

You know?

就像去上了电影学院一样。

It was like going to film school.

而且这所电影学院是你花钱都上不起的。

And it was a film school you couldn't possibly hope to pay for if you tried.

对吧？

You know?

倒不是说我是专门去学习的。

And it's not that it's not that, like, I was there to learn.

我是去工作的。

I was there to do my job.

我是去帮助人们完成这部电影的。

I was there to help people make the movie.

但不可避免的是，我在片场学到了很多东西。

But, inevitably, I learned a ton just being on that set.

我认为，任何编剧在片场看到自己作品被拍摄时，最主要的体验之一就是亲眼目睹电影制作背后那套复杂的劳动体系。

I mean, I think one of the primary experiences that I think any writer has when they're on set for something they wrote is that you just see the entire complicated system of labor that goes into making a movie.

你会意识到，你写的每一个字都将成为数百人每天用来指导工作的依据。

You know, you see that everything you write is going to be something that hundreds of people every day are going to use to figure out how to do their jobs.

所以每天一开始，你会拿到通告单和当日拍摄页。

And so, you know, at the beginning of every day, what you're handed is the the call sheet and the sides.

拍摄页就是当天要拍摄的内容。

And the sides are just the pages that you're gonna shoot that day.

这些内容都印在这些小小的纸上。

And you get them on these little, you know, mini pieces of paper.

然后在一天结束时，大家都会把它们扔进垃圾桶，因为已经用完了。

And then at the end of the day, everybody throws them in the trash because you're done.

你知道吗？

You know?

我认为一旦你看到那张小纸片是每个人用来确定灯光位置、计算所需时间、安排卡车停放位置、决定需要带多少发电机、使用多少技术吊臂等等所有事情的工具。

And I think once you see that that little piece of paper is what everyone is using to figure out where to put the lights, to figure out how much time we need, you know, to figure out where to park the trucks, how many generators we have to bring, you know, how many technocranes we've got to use, all of that stuff.

你就会开始非常谨慎地写作，因为一旦你看到卡车卸下设备，你就再也无法忽视卡车卸下设备的场景了。

You start to be very intentional about what you write because you once you see the trucks unloading the gear, you can't unsee the trucks unloading the gear.

明白吗？

You know?

所以我觉得那确实是我在那个片场深刻感受到的东西，也是我后来带到《酷儿》项目中并一直延续至今的体会。

And so I think that was something, yeah, that was something I really felt very sharply on that set and something that I certainly carried over into queer and that I've carried over since then.

我真的很感激能被置于这样的位置，获得这种领悟。

And I'm just incredibly grateful to have been put in a position to to have that kind of realization.

就你能够将这些领悟带入的项目而言，我知道你接下来有几个计划，包括与卢卡和丹尼尔·克雷格再次合作的DC项目。

And in terms of the projects that, you know, you've you've been able to carry over these these realizations into, There are a couple of projects that you're attached to next, including, I believe, a DC project with Luca and Daniel Craig again.

贾斯汀，你能告诉我些什么？

What can you tell me, Justin?

不多。

Not much.

我觉得挺多的。

I think it's much.

可惜。

Sadly.

我...我觉得不承认我为DC写了个剧本才傻呢。

I I I think it would be silly to to not acknowledge that I wrote a script for for DC.

是的。

Yes.

但除此之外我真的不能多说。

But I can't really say much beyond that.

除此之外，我...我对此感到很兴奋。

Other than that, I'm I'm I'm excited about it.

我猜得对吗，你是不是做了些与迈克·尼科尔斯有关的事？

Am I right in thinking there's something something to do with Mike Nichols that you've done?

而且我知道，显然为了把话题圆回来，《挑战者》这部电影深受迈克·尼科尔斯启发，甚至Art这个角色就是以Art Garfunkel命名的，对应他在《性爱宝典》里扮演的Sandy。

And I know, obviously, to bring us full circle, Challengers certainly was a film very much inspired by Mike Nichols, to the point where Art is named Art after Art Garfunkel and the role that he had as Sandy in Carnal Knowledge.

这就是我所想到的。

That's what I'm thinking of.

哦，你说的是《性爱宝典》啊。

Oh, you're thinking of Carnal Knowledge.

对。

Yes.

好吧。

Okay.

抱歉，我没意识到他那个角色叫Sandy。

Sorry, I didn't realize that his character was named Sandy.

就把他想成Art Garfunkel本人好了。

Just think of him as Art Garfunkel.

是的。

Yes.

《性爱知识》不仅对《挑战者》，而且对我整个写作生涯都产生了巨大影响。

Carnal Knowledge was a was a massive influence on not just Challengers, but on my whole sort of life as a writer.

你知道，我认为迈克·尼科尔斯作为电影人的有趣之处在于——我觉得他与卢卡在这方面非常相似——每部电影都带有鲜明的迈克·尼科尔斯印记，拥有清晰的视觉风格和导演声音。

You know, I think what's what's interesting about Mike Nichols as a filmmaker is that and I think he shares this with Luca in a real way, which is that every film feels like a Mike Nichols film, and it has a very clear vision and a very clear voice, a director's voice.

但他依然与编剧们合作。

And yet he worked with writers.

你知道，他合作的都是那些保持自我风格的编剧。

You know, he he worked with, like and writers who had their own voices.

迈克·尼科尔斯执导的首部电影改编自爱德华·阿尔比的作品，最后一部则是与艾伦·索金合作。

You know, the first movie Mike Nichols ever made was Edward Albee, and the last movie he ever made was Aaron Sorkin.

但这两部作品都带着鲜明的迈克·尼科尔斯风格，一看就是他的手笔。

And yet they both feel like Mike Nichols movies, like unmistakably Mike Nichols movies.

你明白吗？

You know?

所以我认为，这一点在卢卡身上也体现得非常明显。

So and that, I think, is very true of Luca too.

他对合作者怀有极大的尊重，并给予他们充分的空间去创作自己的艺术。

He he has tremendous amount of respect for his collaborators and gives them a lot of space to do their own art.

然而这部电影...你无法想象由其他人来执导《挑战者》或《酷儿》。

And yet the movie is you can't imagine another person making either challengers or queer.

明白吗？

You know?

你提到的迈克·尼科尔斯元素，其实甚至不是受他启发。

The Mike Nichols thing you're referring to, it's not even inspired by Mike.

这是我为裘德·洛写的一部电影，除此之外我不能再透露更多了。

It's a movie I wrote for Jude Law that I can't say much more about other than that.

唯一相关的是他在某次采访中提到，我们因对迈克·尼科尔斯的共同热爱而结缘，但仅此而已。

And the the only thing I think he said at some interview that we had bonded over our love for Mike Nichols, but that that's really the extent of that.

哦，好吧。

Oh, okay.