23 | Lisa Aziz-Zadeh谈具身认知、镜像神经元与共情

大家好，欢迎收听《Mindscape》播客。我是主持人肖恩·卡罗尔。长期以来，人们很自然地认为存在“心灵”——我们作为人的那种脱离肉体的本质，也是思考发生的地方；然后还有“身体”，心灵与身体对话，它们并不是同一个东西。

Hello, everyone, and welcome to the Mindscape Podcast. I'm your host, Sean Carroll. For a long time, people very naturally assumed that there was the mind, the sort of disembodied essence of what we were as people and where the thinking happened. And then there was the body, and the mind talked to the body. They weren't part of the same thing.

它们是两个可以某种方式交流的独立实体。当然，哲学家兼科学家勒内·笛卡尔 famously 把这套“心物二元论”正式化。在我的《大图景》一书里，你可以读到一点相关历史，我把波希米亚的伊丽莎白公主推到前台，她当时就批评笛卡尔，提出了我们今天所谓的“互动问题”：一个脱离肉体的心究竟是怎么跟实际的身体对话的？随着科学进步以及我们对大脑神经元运作的理解加深，我们越来越看到，心灵只是大脑活动的反映。

They were two separate entities that could somehow communicate. Famously, of course, the philosopher and scientist Renee Descartes really formalized this idea of mind body dualism. You can read a little bit about that in my book, The Big Picture, where I try to bring to the historical foreground the figure of princess Elizabeth of Bohemia who criticized Descartes for what we would now call the interaction problem. How in the world is this disembodied mind supposed to be talking to our actual body? Of course, with the progress of science and our understanding of how neurons in the brain work, we see increasingly the mind is just a reflection of what the brain is doing.

如今，大多数一线神经科学家在心脑关系上已不再是二元论者。他们研究大脑，就是为了理解心灵如何运作。事实上，你还可以更进一步：如果思考发生在大脑，那身体的其他部分呢？身体里也有神经。

These days, most working neuroscientists are not dualists when it comes to the mind and the brain. They study the brain to think about how the mind is working. In fact, you can go farther than that. If the brain is where thinking happens, what about the rest of the body? There are nerves in the rest of the body.

实际上，身体里还有细胞、器官等等，它们显然会影响大脑里发生的事。我们是不是更该把整个身体都视为某种意义上的“认知”载体？这就是神经科学里“具身认知”运动的核心论点：我们思考的地方包括整个身体，而不仅是颅骨里那颗小小的大脑。甚至还有一种叫“嵌入认知”的观点，如果我理解正确，它说其实是我们所处的整个世界都在参与思考。

In fact, there are cells and organs and so forth that clearly influence what's going on in the brain. Might it not be more appropriate to think of the whole body as doing cognition in some sense? That's the thesis of a movement in neuroscience called embodied cognition. The idea that where we are thinking includes our whole bodies, not just the little brain inside our skull. There's even something called embedded cognition, which if I understand it correctly goes and says, actually, it's the whole world where we start doing our thinking.

当你在记事本上写字时，那个记事本就应该被视为认知装置的一部分，就像你的大脑一样。对此我不太确定，但至少“具身认知”很有道理。今天的嘉宾莉莎·阿齐扎德是洛杉矶南加州大学的 psychologist 兼神经科学家，她研究认知究竟如何在脑与身体中发生，例如把人放进功能磁共振机，给他们不同任务，观察血流如何流向大脑不同区域。

When you're writing on a notepad, that notepad should be counted as part of your cognitive apparatus just like your brain. So I'm not so sure about that, but the embodied cognition at least makes a lot of sense. So today's guest, Lisa Azizadeh, is a psychologist and neuroscientist at the University of Southern California here in Los Angeles. And she studies how exactly cognition happens in the brain and in the body. For example, by putting people in functional MRI machines, giving them different tasks, watching how blood flows to different parts of the brain.

莉莎是镜像神经元领域的专家。这些是被假设存在的神经元——有大量证据表明它们存在，猴子身上证据确凿，人类身上也有：我们大脑里的某些神经元既在我们自己做动作时放电，也在我们看到别人做同样动作时放电；它们在我们脑内“镜像”他人的行为。

And Lisa is an expert in mirror neurons. These are the hypothesized neurons. There's a lot of evidence that they're there. Certainly a lot of evidence that they're in monkeys, but even in human beings, we have neurons in our brain that fire both when we do something and when we see somebody else do the same thing. They mirror in our brains what we see someone else doing.

镜像神经元理论认为，它们不仅关乎认知，还关乎共情——我们如何理解他人的动机与想法——甚至可能涉及某些神经系统疾病。这是前沿研究，也有争议，我们还不完全确定发生了什么，但今天的对话会让我们了解更多。我们将讨论镜像神经元、更广泛的具身认知，以及神经科学对人类创造力过程的启示。

And these mirror neurons, the theory goes, play a crucial role in not just cognition, but empathy, how we understand the motivations and the thoughts of other people, and maybe even in some neurological diseases. This is cutting edge stuff. It's controversial. We're not exactly sure what's happening, but we'll learn a lot about it in today's conversation. We'll talk about mirror neurons, embodied cognition more generally, and a little bit about what neuroscience has to teach us about the process of human creativity.

那就开始吧。好的，莉莎·齐扎德，欢迎来到《Mindscape》播客。

So let's go. Alright. Lisa Zizadeh, welcome to the Mindscape Podcast.

谢谢，很高兴来到这里。

Thank you. It's great to be here.

我们要聊的是具身认知，对吧？附近还有很多词，比如嵌入认知之类的。我们后面都会谈到。先往后退一步，把背景铺陈一下，好吗？

So we're talking about embodied cognition. Right? I mean, there's a lot of words that are near here, like embedded cognition and things like that. So we'll get we'll get to all that. Let's just take a step back and contextualize this, right?

所以认知并不完全等同于思维，对吗？

So cognition is not exactly the same as thinking. Is that right?

认知和思维不一样。所以，不，我会说认知比思维更大、更广泛。它还包括情感、潜意识处理等等。

Cognition is not the same as thinking. So, no, I would say cognition is larger and broader than thinking. So it encompasses also emotions, also subconscious processing, and so forth.

我们有一种关于我们如何思考的直觉方式。我觉得人们是直觉的二元论者，对吧？他们是勒内·笛卡尔，对吧？你知道，他们把自己的心灵看作几乎与身体分离的东西，只是受到身体的影响。对吧。

And we have this intuitive way of thinking about how we think. I think, I have the feeling that people are intuitive dualists, right? They're Rene Descartes, right? You know, they think of their mind as something almost separate from the body, affected by it. Right.

而你的观点大致是朝着相反的方向发展，你知道，把心灵越来越多地放进身体里。是这样吗？

And your thing is sort of going in the, more or less, the opposite direction, and you know, putting the mind more and more into the body. Is that right?

对。所以我们对神经科学了解得越多，就越发现身体其实是大脑的一部分，你知道，所有神经元一直在与身体互动。所以从你的肠道到手指的感觉，再到听觉，甚至眼睛，我的意思是眼睛可能最相关，因为它实际上与大脑连接得如此紧密。但所有这些都与大脑大规模互动，以至于真的无法把大脑中的处理与身体中的处理分开。

Right. So the more we learn about neuroscience, the more we learn that the body is part of the brain, you know, so all the neurons are interacting with the body all the time. And so from your gut to the senses on your fingers to hearing and even the eye, I mean the eye is probably the most relevant because it's so attached to the brain, actually. But all of this interacts with the brain so largely that it's really impossible to separate processing in the brain from processing in the body.

对。所以这就是具身认知背后的哲学。那么这是从哪里来的？是谁开始这样思考的？

Right. And so that's the philosophy behind embedded cognition. And so where did this come from? Who started thinking this way?

心理学家们已经思考这个问题很久了。有查尔默斯，还有

So psychologists have been thinking about this for a long time. So there's Chalmers, there's

戈尔茨坦。小查尔默斯，就是那个。

Goldstein. Baby Chalmers, that is.

没错。乔治·莱考夫是一位语言学家，他也从语言处理的角度长期思考这个问题。所以他谈到具身隐喻，也就是我们如何用身体和动作的隐喻来说话。

That's right. George Lakoff is a linguist who has been thinking about this also for a long time in terms of language processing. So he talks about embodied metaphors, so how we speak with our metaphors of the body and actions.

那么抱歉，这是什么意思？

So sorry, what does that mean?

是的，比如“把握情况”“处理真相”这些说法，对吧？这些都是用身体化的方式谈论非常抽象的事物。

Yeah, so things like grasping the situation, handling the truth, right? So these are all embodied ways of talking about very abstract things.

好的，作为语言学家，这说得通。他在思考我们为什么使用某些视觉隐喻，我猜是具身隐喻。

Okay, so as a linguist that makes sense. He's trying to think about why we use certain visual metaphor, I guess embodied metaphors.

具身隐喻，没错。而且，你知道，这背后还有神经科学。发现了镜像神经元，我想我们稍后会谈到。镜像神经元的特点是，无论我自己做动作，还是仅仅看别人做动作，它们都会活跃——我自己完全没动，但我的运动皮层却像在做动作一样被激活。

Embodied metaphors, exactly. And, you know, then there's the neuroscience behind it. So there was the discovery of mirror neurons, which I think we'll talk about in a little bit. But mirror neurons were found to be neurons that are active both when I do something and just when I watch someone do something, so I'm not doing anything at all. But they're active in my motor cortex as if I'm doing something.

所以这是一种对他人动作的模拟。后来这确实支持了乔治·莱考夫在语言学上的很多研究：当人们说出“把握情况”或“处理真相”这类词时，运动皮层会出现活动。

So this kind of simulating other people's actions. And then this actually supported a lot of George Lakoff's works in linguistics, where we found that when people said words like grasping the situation or handling the truth, you would find activity in the motor cortex.

好的。那么这或多或少就是你的研究领域，对吧？我的印象是——你可以纠正我——你的科研工作就是深入人们的大脑，观察他们在做不同事情时发生了什么。

Okay. And so this is more or less, this is where you come in, right? Because my impression, you should tell me, but my impression is that your scientific work involves poking inside people's brains and seeing what's going on when they're doing different things.

对。

Right.

你是怎么做的？

How do you do that?

其实我并不会真的把脑子戳进去。太可惜了。我们用的是MRI，还有功能磁共振。我们把人放进MRI扫描仪里，让他们在里面做点什么，同时观察大脑不同区域的活动。

So I don't actually physically poke in their That's too bad. So we use MRI, and we use functional MRI. So we put people inside the MRI scanner, and we have them do something while they're in there, and we look at the activity in different parts of the brain.

所以这台MRI是个庞然大物，放在实验室里，人被固定——也许不是绑住，但躺着，脑袋伸进那个大甜甜圈里，是这样吗？

So this MRI is a gigantic thing, right, in someone's lab, and so they're strapped, not strapped down maybe, but they're lying down and their head is in the big donut. Is that right?

完全正确。

Exactly, right.

关于MRI的可靠性不是一直有些争议吗？你了解吗？

And hasn't there been some controversy over how reliable if MRI are? Do you know?

当然，我的意思是，你知道，每种科学方法都有问题，而MRI是一种相当粗略的科学方法，你无法捕捉到单个神经元。实际上只是间接测量脱氧血流。大脑中耗氧越多的区域就是正在工作的区域，而你测量的就是这个。

Sure, I mean, you know, every scientific method has its problems, and MRI is a pretty gross scientific method, so you can't capture an individual neuron. Really getting indirect measures of deoxygenated blood flow. The parts of the brain that use the more oxygen are the ones that are working, and that's what you're measuring.

我的印象是它在定位大脑中的位置方面还不错，但在时间分辨率方面就不太行。

My impression is it's good at sort of locating things in the brain. It's less good at time resolution or something.

完全正确。所以它有一个滞后。对，它不能给你精确的时间。至于定位，大约能做到两厘米乘两厘米的立方体。

Exactly right. So it has a lag. Right. So it doesn't give you precise timing. And localization, it's about, you know, you can get by two by two cubic centimeters.

好的，那可是很多神经元。

Okay. And that's a lot of neurons.

是很多神经元，没错。

That's a lot of neurons, yeah.

好的。那么回到嵌入式认知，你能帮我理解嵌入式、具身式和情境式认知之间的区别吗？这些我们都可以聊聊吧？

Okay. Yeah. All right, so let's get back to the embedded, could you help me understand embedded cognition versus embodied versus situated there's also, right? These are all things we can talk about?

它们大体上重叠。具身认知是指我们的思维方式本质上根植于我们的身体系统。所以，如果你感到焦虑或紧张，那实际上是你内脏的活动被大脑处理的结果。

They overlap largely. Embodied cognition is the idea that the way that we think is inherently rooted in our body systems. So, you know, if you are anxious or nervous, that's actually activity from your internal organs that your brain is processing.

等等，抱歉。所以字面意义上是因为你的器官在做什么，你才会感到焦虑。

Okay, I'm sorry. So it's literally because of your organs doing something that you are feeling anxious.

对。

Right.

这不仅仅是因为你大脑中的某个神经元向邻近的神经元发出了一点信号。

It's not just because a certain neuron in your brain sent a little signal to a nearby neuron.

不是的。我们知道，从交感神经和副交感神经系统来看，你与身体之间存在着大量的互动。大脑不断地从身体接收信息。那我们就来说说紧张吧。所以，如果你觉得胃里像有蝴蝶在飞，感到焦虑，那其实是因为你的内脏被交感神经系统激活了。

No. So we know from the sympathetic and parasympathetic systems that you have this large interaction with the body. And the brain is constantly picking up information from the body. And so let's just talk about being nervous. So if you feel like you have butterflies in your stomach and you're anxious, that's actually because your internal organs are being primed by your sympathetic nervous system.

然后这些信息会传送到大脑，并被解读为紧张。

And then that information is going to the brain, and it's being interpreted as being nervous.

好吧，我是说，我在努力理解你，我读过一点相关资料。我想，这仍然是有争议的，整个问题，我是说，这是科学的前沿，对吧？我们还没有在所有事情上达成一致。是的，

Okay, so I mean, I'm trying to understand you, I've read a little bit about this. I guess where and I think it's still controversial, The whole thing, I mean this is science at the cutting edge, right? We don't agree on everything yet. Yeah,

这是一个理论。

it's a theory.

这是一个理论。所以有人是守旧派，有人是热衷者，整个……那我是说，有一种比较琐碎的理解方式，当然，我的身体和我的大脑会互相交流。是的。但你想表达得比这更激进一些，对吗？

It's a theory. So there are curmudgeons and there's enthusiasts and the whole So I mean there's kind of a trivial sense in which, sure, my body and my brain talk to each other. Yeah. But you're trying to be a little bit more dramatic than that. Is that right?

对。所以这个想法是，如果你有一个脱离身体的大脑，它还能像我们一样处理信息吗？对吧。所以，如果你相信具身认知理论，你就会说不能。

Right. So the idea is if you had a brain outside of a body, could it actually process things the way we do? Right. And so if you believe in this theory of embodied cognition, then you would say no.

那会是怎样的？我是说，缸中之脑实验，对吧？对。你可以把大脑放进缸里，用电信号刺激它。你是说那样不会产生类似人类的认知。

So what would it be like? Mean, the brain in the vat experiment, right? Right. You could put a brain in the vat and poke electrical signals at it. You're saying that would not be a human like cognition going on.

不，我不这么认为。所以我认为我们固有的思维方式以及我们处理信息的方式，都与身体的互动有关。而缸中的大脑无法以同样的方式做到这一点。

No, I don't think so. So I think the way that we inherently think and the way we process information has to do with interaction with the body. And the brain and the fat wouldn't be able to do it the same way.

我们难道不能非常巧妙地模拟它从身体接收到的信号吗？

Couldn't we somehow very cleverly mimic the signals it's getting from a body?

你知道，这完全是——哦

You know, this is completely Oh

是啊，我知道。你是位严谨的科学家，所以我才在玩这些有趣的哲学游戏。

yeah, I know. You're a serious scientist, so I'm playing fun philosophical games.

问题是，你能写出一个计算机程序，让它拥有足够的信息来模拟一个身体吗？

You know, so the question is, could you make a computer program that could have enough information in it that it could simulate a body?

对。

Right.

我猜答案是我们不知道。理论上也许可行，但听起来有点牵强。

I guess the answer is we don't know. It's theoretically probably possible, but seems a little bit far fetched.

确实，从生物学角度看倒说得通，对吧？我每次请生物学家或神经科学家来做播客时都会说：我们并不是被智能设计的。并没有一个团队专门设计大脑，另一个团队专门设计身体，然后还得让两者配合得天衣无缝。

It does, I mean, it sort of makes sense biologically. Right? You know, I I always say this when when I have biologists or or neuroscientists on the podcast, but we were not intelligently designed. Right? So there's not, you know, a team designing the brain and a separate team designing the body that had to work well together.

整个系统是逐渐有机地成长起来的。

The whole thing grew up kind of organically.

对。

Right.

某种意义上，认知凭什么就该止于大脑边界呢？我们的神经系统遍布全身。

In some sense, why should cognition end at the boundary of the brain? Right? I mean, the nervous system fills our whole body.

完全正确，没错，就是这样。

Exactly, right, exactly.

那么我们如何验证这一点是否属实？我们该如何弄清楚？

And so how do we test the extent to which that's true? How do we figure out?

对，我们做的许多实验都会观察那些被认为纯粹是感觉运动的脑区，看看这些区域是否参与了这种更高层次的认知加工。

Right, so a lot of the experiments that we run look at parts of the brain that are thought to be purely sensory motor. And we see if those regions are involved in this kind of higher cognitive processing.

好的。请解释在这种情况下“感觉运动”以及“更高层次认知过程”是什么意思。

Okay. Explain what sensory motor means in this context and higher cognitive processes.

好的，大脑中有些区域负责运动控制，也就是让身体做出动作。理论上以前认为这些区域只干这个，除此之外几乎不做别的。也许还有一些感觉功能，但也就这样了。

Okay, so there's parts of the brain that are involved in motor control. So making the body do things. And it was theoretically thought before that those regions really just only do that. They don't do much more than that. Maybe they have some sensory functions as well, but not much more beyond that.

然而我们越来越多地发现，它们也参与社会认知，比如理解他人的意图、理解他们的行为；它们还参与与动作相关的语言处理。也就是说语言——我们曾以为属于更高认知的东西——对吧？此外，它们还可能参与共情加工等我们曾认为属于最高层次认知的事情。

And more and more we find that they're involved in social cognition, understanding other people's intentions, understanding their actions. They're involved in linguistic processing of actions. Okay, so language, something else that we thought was higher cognition, right? And then they also might be involved in things like empathic processing, things that we thought were really like the highest level of cognition.

所以，对，更高层次的认知我们指的是更抽象的思维、情绪等，对吧？相对于那些更多是无意识进行的事情。

So, yeah, so the higher levels of cognition, we're thinking more abstract thought, emotions, things like that. Exactly. As opposed to the more of sort of unconscious things that are going on. Right?

没错。

That's right.

而且我在看的某篇维基百科文章里读到，当我们发现大脑的大部分计算能力都用在无意识过程上——也就是我们认为是自动的那些——而高阶认知能力只占我们脑力的一小部分时，这让人一开始挺震惊的，不是吗？

And didn't I read in one of these Wikipedia articles I was looking at that it was sort of a starting realization when we figured out that most of the computing power in the brain is spent on our unconscious processes, what we think of as automatic, and the higher cognitive capacity is a relatively tiny amount of our brain work?

是的，只不过，你知道，这种高阶与低阶的划分本身就很难界定，对吧？

Yes, except that, you know, like this division between higher and lower is a tough one, right?

这是个

It's a

模糊的一个。这是个模糊的点。所以我真的不太确定该在哪里划界限。另外，现在越来越常出现的一个非常有趣的概念是预测建模。你知道，这个想法就是，存在两种类型的处理。

fuzzy one. It's a fuzzy one. And so I'm not sure really where you draw the line. Also, like, something really interesting that's coming out more and more now is the idea of predictive modeling. You know, idea is that, you know, so there's two types of processing.

一种是我们所谓的自下而上。也就是从你的感官系统——眼睛、鼻子、嘴巴、体感——传递到大脑。另一种是自上而下。那是我们预测会发生的事情，我们已经开始像它们真的发生一样去处理，对吧？所以这是由大脑驱动，再返回到初级区域。

There's what we call bottom up. So it goes from your sensory systems, your eyes, your nose, your mouth, your somatosensory, to the brain. And then there's top down. So that's things that we predict will happen that we start to already process as if they're happening, right? So it's driven by the brain and goes back down to the primary areas.

好的。

Okay.

好的。所以过去可能——这实际上来自机器人学。我们在机器人学中发现，如果一切处理都是自下而上，那就会太慢。

Okay. And so it used to be that maybe, you know, this comes actually from robotics. So what we found in robotics was that if everything was bottom up, it would be too slow.

啊。

Ah.

好的。于是机器人做任何事都会慢得离谱。所以我们开始为机器人做所谓的正向建模。这样就有了某种预测模型，同时自下而上的模型也看看能否与之匹配，然后你就能进行更稳健的处理，速度也提高了。后来我们意识到大脑可能也是这样运作，但人们普遍认为自下而上和自上而下大约各占一半。

Okay. So the robot would be way too slow to do anything. And so we started to do what we called forward modeling for robots. And so in there, you start to have some kind of predictive model, and the bottom up model also sees if it can match it, and then you do some more robust processing that way, and it increases speed. Okay, and so we realized the brain probably also works like that, but people pretty much thought it was about fiftyfifty, bottom up and top down.

现在越来越多的研究表明，比例更偏向自上而下，而不是自下而上。所以我们带着对将要看到内容的预测来处理信息。有人给出的数字高达90%。

And now more and more research is coming out saying that the percentages are much more toward the top down than the bottom up. And so we process things with this kind of prediction of what we expect to see. People are giving numbers like 90%.

好吧。那你们可以量化这个。这是

All right. So you can quantify this. This is

对，这非常困难。非常难量化。但你基本上是在比较来自感官系统的信息和从前额叶皮层等区域下行的信息。

Yeah, it's very difficult. It's very difficult to quantify. But you're looking basically at information coming from sensory systems versus information going down from prefrontal cortex and things like that.

这就像那个经典问题：人到底怎么接到棒球？我们可没在心里做微积分，

And this is like the classic problem of how in the world can people catch a baseball? We're not doing calculus in our head,

显然，正是如此。

obviously, Exactly.

但不知怎的，我们的大脑在预测事物，对吧。于是我们把某一次测量到的现实，与这些预测进行比较。是这样吗？完全正确。

But somehow our brains are predicting things. Right. And we're judging the reality that we measure any one time versus those predictions. Is that right? Exactly, right.

所以你是说，这其实就是我们在这个世界上做一切事情的范式？

And so you're saying that this just goes this is the paradigm for how we do everything in the world?

看起来是的。而且，你知道，如果真的是大约90%，那确实有点令人惊讶，对吧？但没错，大部分研究似乎都在支持这一点。

It seems like it. And it's, you know, it's a it's a little surprising if it is actually something like 90%. Right? But yeah, it does seem most of the work seems to be supporting that.

我觉得这还跟——我又开始哲学化了——我们对时间流逝的感知有关，对吧？因为我们不断地……所以你是说，也许我们可以稍微深入点细节，因为这挺有意思。你是说，我们对自己和环境都有模型，嗯，我们把它们投射到未来，然后一直在更新。

And I think this has something to do, again, I get, you know, philosophical about these things, with our perception of the flow of time, right? Because we're constantly, so you're saying that and maybe we can get into the details here a little bit because it's interesting. But you're saying that we have models of both ourselves and the environment Mhmm. That we project in the future, and then we're updating them all the time.

正是如此。

Exactly. Right.

我想我听人说过，这就是我们感觉自己在时间中前行的原因，因为这种不断的来回，对吧？

I think that I've heard people claim this is why we feel that we're moving through time because of this constant give and take, right?

这很有意思。我是说，我觉得这也是神经科学与物理学的交汇点。绝对如此。这超级有趣。

That's interesting. I mean, I think that this is also where, you know, the interaction of neuroscience with physics comes in. Absolutely. Which is super interesting.

是的。而且我们所谓的‘当下’，其实已经是几毫秒前的过去，因为我们需要时间来——

Yeah. And our our our what what we call the present moment is actually a few milliseconds in the past because it takes us time to

来处理它。

To process it.

来处理所有信息。对，对。那么，我们大脑里是不是有一张身体地图，一个小人图，还是有许多不同的小区域在做不同的事？

To process everything. Right. Right. Yeah. So is it one kind of map of our body that is in our brain, one little homunculus, or are there different little parts doing different things?

有很多不同的部分在做很多不同的事情。

There's a lot of different parts doing a lot of different things.

比如？

So for example?

你有运动区，有体感区，还有听觉处理区。即使在运动区里，也有多重、多重地图。

So you have the motor areas, you have the somatosensory areas, you have auditory processing regions. Even in the motor areas, have multiple, multiple maps.

好的。

Okay.

在体感区里，也有多重地图。对你的内脏来说，在不同部位也有好几张地图。

In somatosensory areas, you have multiple maps. For your internal organs, you have several maps in different parts.

每个器官一张，还是每个器官有好几张地图？

One per organ or several maps of each organ?

不是。是好几张地图，整合来自……

No. So several maps of integrated information from

哦，我明白了。

Oh, I see.

内脏的信息。对。

The organs. Yeah.

好的。所以我们从心脏、肝脏和肺部获取信息，这些信息会传递到大脑的不同部分，用于预测不同的事情？是这样吗？

Okay. So we're getting information from our heart and our liver and our lungs, and that's going to different parts of the brain that are predicting different things? Is that the way

是的，思考、处理并预测等等。

it's Yeah, thinking processing it and predicting it and so forth.

于是你开始明白为什么具身认知听起来是个好主意，因为……

So you begin to see why embodied cognition would sound like a good idea because Right,

没错。研究得越深入，越会发现大脑中其实没有哪个部分不接收来自身体的信息。

right. The more you study it, find that there really isn't parts of the brain that don't get information from the body.

好的，明白了。你们能在功能磁共振成像里看到这个过程吗？是的，或者至少能看到某些变化。

Right, okay. And you can see this happening in your fMRIs? Yes. Or you can see something happening.

你能看到一些间接证据，我们称之为间接证据。

You can see something indirect evidence, we would call it.

你会让受试者在扫描仪里做什么非常具体的任务？

What is a very specific thing that you would ask someone to do when they're in that fMRI?

好的，镜像神经元的最初研究是在猴子身上做的，他们把电极植入特定的运动神经元，观察猴子做动作，再看猴子看到别人做相同动作时会发生什么。我们在人类身上做的类似实验是：让受试者躺在扫描仪里，先让他们自己做一个动作，比如伸手拿杯子或球，然后让他们看别人做同样的动作。接着我们还可以进一步让他们思考那个人的意图，或者想象那个人做动作时的感受。

Okay, so the original studies in mirror neurons were done in monkeys, so they put electrodes inside a specific motor neuron And they watch the monkey do something, and they see what happens when the monkey observes someone else make the same action. And what we do that's the analog of that in humans is we put them in the scanner, and we have them perform an action, like reach for a cup or a ball or something like that, and then have them watch someone else do the same action. Okay. And then we can go further and have them think about the intentions of that person, or think about what that person might be feeling when they're doing that action.

这是你能对人类做、却不能对猴子做的事。

There's something you do with a human you can't do with a monkey there.

完全正确。然后你还可以做面部表情，让他们模仿面部表情等等。

Exactly, right. And then you could do facial expressions, you can have them imitate facial expressions, and things like that.

我们逐渐认识到，进化非常擅长回收利用，对吧？它会用大脑的同一部分去完成我们看来截然不同的任务。

And what we're learning is that, you know, the evolution is very good at recycling, right? So it's using the same part of the brain to do what we might think of as very different tasks.

完全正确。所以，在进化过程中，最先出现的很可能是动作，对吧？大脑得先指挥身体做点什么，然后是感知，对吧？这几乎占用了整个大脑。随着进化推进，这些区域才开始被用于认知。

Exactly right. So it makes sense that in, through evolution, you first probably had action, right? So the brain had to do something, and then sensory perception, right? And that basically took up the whole brain. And as evolution progressed, then you start to use these areas for cognition.

对。你几次提到了镜像神经元。那我们干脆聊聊它们到底是什么。给我们讲讲什么是镜像神经元。

Right. You mentioned mirror neurons a couple of times. Right. So let's just admit that we should talk about what these are. So tell us what a mirror neuron is.

它们大概有多少？是不是—— Okay. 在大脑的特定位置才能找到？

Is it like how many of them are? Is it the Okay. Particular place in the brain where we find them?

是的。镜像神经元最初是在猴子身上发现的，位于猴脑F5区，相当于人类的前运动皮层，也在咽喉回。研究人员把单细胞电极插进这一区域，发现当猴子自己做某个动作，以及看到别的个体做相同动作时，这些神经元都会放电。

Yeah. So mirror neurons were discovered in monkeys. They were discovered in monkey area F5, which is equivalent to the premotor cortex in humans, and then pheopharyngeal gyrus as well. And they were found to be active, so using single cell electrodes that were inserted into this area of the monkey brain. They found that these neurons are active when the monkey does something, as well as when the monkey sees someone making the same action.

Okay. 这是什么时候的事？

Okay. And this was, when are we talking about?

1996年。

'ninety six.

哦，这么近？好吧。

Oh, that recently? Okay.

对。这是意大利帕尔马Rizzolatti实验室的发现。

Yes. And this was by Rizzolotti's lab in Parma, Italy.

嗯哼。所以是同一批神经元——再问一次，能问到底有多少个吗？就像——

Uh-huh. And so the same neurons, I mean again, is it even possible to ask how many neurons we're talking about? Is it like

四 不，不，不，其实挺多的。而且你知道，这是同一个脑区，所以F5这个脑区是一块“马赛克”。那里有一些镜像神经元，也有其他类型的神经元等等。

four No, no, no, it's quite a lot. And it's, you know, the same brain region, so this F5 brain region has, it's a mosaic. So there's some mirror neurons there, there's other kinds of neurons there, and so forth.

大脑里有大约850亿个神经元，所以可能有一大堆都在干这种事。对，没错。但这确实也引出一个问题：神经元到底有多专门化？我的意思是，它们分布在脑内不同区域，但一个区域的神经元真的和另一个区域的神经元不一样吗？

And there's like 85,000,000,000 neurons in the brain, so there's probably a whole bunch that are doing this. Yes, right. But it really is, but you know, how specialized are neurons? I mean, they're localized in different parts of the brain, but are the actual neurons in one part of the brain different than neurons in other parts of the brain?

是的。镜像神经元本质上是运动神经元，所以只出现在运动相关区域。现在不仅在顶叶皮层，也在前运动区发现了它们。在其他地方你会找到视觉神经元等等。

Yes. So mirror neurons are specifically motor neurons. So they're really only in motor areas. So they've been found now in the parietal cortex as well as in this premotor area. Then you'll find visual neurons and other parts and so forth.

对。我们是在猴子身上发现它们的。对，有那么一个小神经元，当猴子自己做某个动作，或者看到别人做同一个动作时，它都会放电。

Right. So we discovered them in monkeys. Yes. There's a little neuron that does the same thing if the monkey's doing something and sees someone else do it. Right.

而我们又不能切开人的头骨，往里面插电极。所以对人来说验证起来更难，但道理上说得通，对吧？

And we're not allowed to cut open human beings' skulls and Right. Electric put electric signals in there. So it's harder to test this for human beings, but it would make sense. Right?

对。所以我们用fMRI这类办法；也可以用EEG，还有TMS——经颅磁刺激也被用过。这些都是间接手段。

Right. So the way that we do it is by using something like fMRI. You could also use EEG, TMS, transcranial magnetic stimulation has also been used. So there's all these indirect measures.

那么这到底是为了什么？镜像神经元干嘛要这样？好，我看到自己拿杯子，某些神经元放电；我看到你拿杯子，我脑里同样的神经元也放电。

And this is something that we think has to do with not I mean, okay. What is the point? Why do these mirror neurons do this? So fine, I see, you know, I pick up a cup, some neurons fire. I see you pick up a cup, the same neurons fire in my brain.

这到底怎么回事？为什么

What's up with that? Why

好——这就轮到理论登场了，对吧？

do Okay, I then this is where the theory comes in, right?

对，没错。

Right, yes.

好的，有很多种不同的理论。一个非常基础的理论认为，镜像神经元参与处理他人的行为。这是最简单的一种理论。然后是模拟理论：我理解你、理解你在做什么、理解你伸手拿杯子可能是因为你渴了，是通过模拟实现的。我知道我伸手拿杯子是因为我渴了。所以如果我的运动区域在潜意识里模拟了你的一举一动，我就能理解你的体验。

Okay, so there's a bunch of different theories. So one very basic one is that it's involved in processing other people's actions. That's the And most simple one, then there's theories of simulation, that the way I understand you, the way I understand what you're doing, the way I understand when you reach for a cup, that means that you're probably thirsty, is by simulating. I know that when I reach for a cup, that's because I'm thirsty. And so if my motor regions are simulating unconsciously what you're doing at every moment, then I have an understanding of your experience.

所以，如果我能模拟它，就能帮我建立关于你心理的理论。

So it helps me have a theory of your mind if I can sort of simulate it.

正是如此。

Exactly.

所以这就像模拟假说，一切都只是我大脑里的一点点模拟。

So it's like the simulation hypothesis. It's like everything is just a little simulation in my brain.

完全正确。而且你一直在做这件事，因为面前不只有一个人，而是很多人在同时做很多事，所以你得跟踪很多信息。

Exactly. Right. Right. And you're doing this, you know, constantly with because there you're not there's not just one person in front of you, but there's a lot of people doing a lot of things, so you there's a lot to keep track of.

好的。我一直在来回思考这个问题：我们先做实验发现神经元会镜像，然后提出理论说这帮助我们理解别人的大脑。那我们怎么验证这个理论呢？

Right. And is that so I keep going back and forth between this, but so we do an experiment and learn that the neurons are mirroring, and then we invent a theory that says this helps us understand other people's brains. So how do we test that theory?

嗯，有几种方法。你可以设计巧妙的实验，去区分理解他人意图、理解场景背景、以及理解伸手却没真正拿起杯子的差异等等。然后观察在这些情境下镜像神经元（或你认为的镜像神经元）的大脑活动差异，并比较活动水平。

Right. So there's different ways. So you just design clever experiments to try to get at what's the difference between understanding someone's intention versus understanding the context of a scene versus understanding reaching without actually picking up a cup, right? And you could look at brain differences for mirror neurons, or what you think are mirror neurons, for each of those scenarios, and compare activity levels.

你能想到一个巧妙的实验例子吗？

Is there an example of a clever experiment you can think of?

可以，实际上里佐拉蒂的实验室就有一个。他们在猴子身上做实验：先让猴子伸手拿苹果；然后让猴子看实验人员伸手拿苹果；接着设置一个遮挡情境，在猴子即将抓到苹果的那一刻，放上一个屏幕，让猴子看不到苹果是否还在那里。

Yeah, so actually one of them comes from Rizalati's lab, where he's actually doing this in the monkey. And so he has the monkey reach for an apple. Okay. And then he has the monkey watch an experimenter reach for the apple. And then he has an occluded scenario where he, at the moment where the grasp to the apple is gonna happen, there's a screen put on that the monkey can no longer see if the apple was there or not.

好的。

Okay.

所以现在只是一个抓握的动作，猴子看不到物体，但它之前看到苹果在那里，所以它必须推断，对吧？对。于是你发现镜像神经元仍然活跃。

And so now there's just a grasp, there's no object that the monkey sees, but the monkey saw previously that the apple was there, so he has to infer, right? Right. And so you find that the mirror neurons are still active.

好的。

Okay.

明白了吗？但如果苹果不在那里，而那个人去抓，镜像神经元就不再激活。

Okay? But if the apple was not there and the person grasps for it, then the mirror neurons no longer activate.

哦，好的。所以即使这个人做的是同样的动作

Oh, okay. So even though the person is doing the same thing

完全一样的动作。

Same exact action.

因为它有不同的含义

Because it has a different meaning

是的。

Yes.

因为他们并不是在抓某个东西，是的，这些神经元就不会放电。

Because they're not grasping for something Yes. These neurons don't fire.

对。由此，里佐拉蒂团队推断，目标的意图对这些神经元非常重要。

Right. And so from this, the Ritzelotti group infers that the intention of the goal is very important for these neurons.

对。

Right.

所以你其实在处理意图。

And so you're actually processing intentions.

很好。这再次提醒我们，神经元对世界的表征不仅仅是世界的一幅图像，而是一个复杂的东西，其中包含了意义和意图。

Good. So yet another reminder that, you know, the way that the neurons represent the world is not just, it's a picture of the world. It's this complicated thing where there's meanings and intentions

以及目标和……

And goals and And

目标和目的。

goals and purposes.

对，动机，诸如此类的东西。

Right. Motivation. Stuff like that.

嗯。你觉得这对人类心理学有什么启发吗？

Yeah. Does this teach us much about human psychology, you think?

当然有。我认为我们一直在试图理解他人的意图，试图理解他们行为背后的含义。所以，人类大脑中的这些神经元可能也参与了这一过程。

Sure. So I think that we're always trying to understand other people's intentions and trying to understand the underlying meaning of their actions. And so it could be that these neurons in humans are also involved in doing that.

所以这就是共情的作用，例如。那你是因为这个原因研究共情吗？

So that's where empathy comes in, for example. So do you study empathy for this reason?

是的。我们还发现，在共情特质评分上得分高的人，他们这些镜像区域的活动确实更强。

I do. So we also find that people who score high on trait empathy, measures of empathy, they actually show more activity in these mirror regions.

好的。那对于那些在这些区域没有任何活动的人，有什么说法吗？

Okay. Is it something to be said about people who don't show any activity in this region?

是的，所以我们发现，因此我也研究自闭症个体。

Yes, so we find that, so I also study individuals with autism.

好的。

Okay.

我们实际上发现，这些脑区的活动在他们身上更少，自闭症患者也表现出较低的共情加工能力，而社交加工困难正是自闭症的核心功能障碍。还发现，共情其实挺复杂，有不同种类。心理学家通常把共情分成三个组成部分。

And so we actually show that they have less activity in these regions, and people with autism also have lower empathic processing, and difficulty with social processing in general is the key misfunction in autism. Also find this, you know, there's, so empathy is complicated. There's different kinds of empathy. So psychologists generally divide empathy into three components.

好的。

Okay.

首先是同情，也叫心智化，就是你在思考某人的行为、意图和感受，但方式比较抽象。

So there's sympathy, which is kind of mentalizing is what we would call it, where you're thinking about someone's actions and intentions and feelings, but in a very abstract way.

明白。好的。也就是说，我并没有把自己代入成你，但我大致能猜出你在想什么。

Right. Okay. Okay. So I'm not like identifying with you as a person, but I'm sort of getting this idea of what you're thinking.

对。我能想到最好的例子是，如果你在一段关系里，伴侣对你很生气，而你却很难理解原因。

Yeah. I mean, the best example I can give of this is if you're in a relationship and your partner's really upset with you, and you're having a really hard time getting it.

这我可从没经历过，不过行吧。

Right? That's never happened to me, but sure.

但他们越解释越多，你就好像处在一个抽象层面，心想：‘好吧，我大概明白你为什么生我气了。’

But they explain it more and more, and you're kind of like in this abstract realm. You're like, okay, I kinda understand why you're upset with me.

理性上。

Intellectually.

从理智上。是的。我自己绝不会那样回应。

Intellectually. Yes. I would never respond that way myself.

对。

Right.

对，但我那是

Right, but I That's

叫同情？那是一种

called sympathy? That's a

奇怪那叫同情。

weird That's called sympathy.

对我来说，同情这个词听起来有点怪，不过好吧。

That sounds like a weird, just the word sympathy to me, but okay.

所以这是一种非常认知化的共情，非常抽象。

So it's a very cognitive form of empathy and very abstract.

好。

Okay.

好，接下来是共情，也就是分享他人的感受。所以在这里，我感受到你确切的感受。因此，如果你感到痛苦，我自己也会真切地感受到那种痛苦。

Okay, then we have empathy, which is sharing someone's feelings. So here, I feel exactly what you feel. So if you're in pain, I actually feel that pain myself.

真的切身感受到。

Literally feel it.

是的，真的感觉到了。

Yeah, literally feel it.

好的。

Okay.

然后是同情心。同情心是一种主动的行为，你实际上想做点什么来帮助那个人。所以不仅你有感受，而且你对他们有同情心，并且你想做点什么来帮助他们。在感受中，对对方有温暖的原则。

And then there's compassion. And compassion is proactive behavior, where you actually want to do something to help the person. So not only do you feel, but you feel compassion for them, and you want to do something to help them. In Feeling principle of warmth for the other person.

我猜这三个是分开的，对吧？就像，即使我没有感受到，我也可以有同情心

I would guess all three of these are separate, right? Like, I can have compassion even if I don't feel

完全正确。完全正确。所以首先，大脑中有三个不同的网络。

Exactly. Exactly. So first of all, there are three different networks in the brain.

哦，好的，所以我们可以把这些映射出来

Oh, okay, so we can map these

嗯。然后有不同的障碍，你知道，所以有人可能，例如，精神病患者在抽象同情方面非常擅长。但在共情方面非常差。他们实际上感受不到别人的痛苦。

out. Mhmm. And then there's different disorders that, you know, so someone could, so for example psychopaths are very good with this abstract sympathy. But very bad with empathy. They don't actually feel the other person's pain.

好的。

Okay.

但他们非常擅长操纵别人，因为他们有这种心理化和同情心，可以抽象地理解别人。

But they're very good at manipulating people because they have this kind of mentalizing and sympathy where they can abstractly understand people.

对。

Right.

而自闭症患者往往正好相反。

And then people with autism tend to be just the opposite.

所以，抱歉，你继续

So, sorry, go

所以他们

So they

他们不擅长共情。

They're not good at sympathy.

他们不擅长共情，但在情感共享方面还可以。

They're not good at sympathy, but they're okay with affect sharing.

哦，好的，有意思。这确实很有趣，大脑里有这些执行不同功能的网络。它们是相当独立且明显分开的吗？我是说，二十年后我们会不会发现一个固定的数量？是的，大脑里有35个网络执行这些不同的情感功能，还是它们其实相互融合？

Oh, okay, interesting. And this is, I mean it's very interesting, the idea there are networks in the brain that sort of do these different functions. Are they quite discreet and obviously separate? I mean, there some fixed number we're gonna discover twenty years from now? Yes, there are 35 networks in the brain that do these sort of different emotional things, or is it kind of they blend into each other?

你是指共情处理吗？我们是在说身体——只是身体？好的，我们谈过镜像神经元。但自从镜像神经元被发现以来，人们又找到了许多不同类型的共享回路，我们这么称呼它们。例如，在躯体感觉区域，也就是当我被触碰时会活跃的区域，我们发现当我看到你被触碰时它们也会活跃。我们在厌恶区域也发现了类似现象，也就是当我感到厌恶时会活跃的区域。

You mean like empathic processing? Are we talking about body Just body, Yeah, so okay, so we talked about mirror neurons. But since the discovery of mirror neurons, a lot of different kinds of shared circuits, we call them, have been found. For example, in the somatosensory areas, so areas that are active when I'm touched, we find that they're also active when I watch you being touched. We find that also with disgust regions, so regions that are active when I feel disgusted.

当我看到你经历厌恶时，这些区域也会活跃。

When I see you experiencing disgust, they're also active.

我读到过丈夫在妻子怀孕时会有这种反应。他们会得一种假孕症。会晨便吗？

I read that husbands have these reactions when their wives are pregnant. They get sort of fake pregnancies. Get morning feces?

哦，这真有趣。我没听说过。

Oh, that's interesting. I haven't heard of that.

嗯，所以我说我听说过。我昨晚刚在《城堡岩》里看过。那是一部电视剧，根据斯蒂芬·金改编的。哦，老实说，他们全都在讲镜像神经元。

Well, so I say I heard of it. I literally watched it on Castle Rock last night. There is this TV show, Stephen King based TV show. Oh, And honestly, that's they were all about mirror neurons.

哦，这也太……

Oh, that's This so

那个有点疯狂的角色坚信她的镜像神经元正在伸出去触碰别人。

slightly crazy character was convinced that her mirror neurons were reaching out and touching other people.

他们真的用了‘镜像神经元’这个词？

They actually used that term?

哦，用了。他们确实用了。哦，哇。所以我觉得那是后来加进去的，原来的斯蒂芬·金故事里并没有，但对他们来说，以前只是超能力，现在成了镜像神经元。

Oh, yeah. They did. Oh, wow. And so I think that was an addendum that was not in the original Stephen King stories, but they That's for him, was just psychic powers, but now it's mirror neurons.

哦，哇。

Oh, wow.

所以可能不是真的。怀孕那事，我想我明白了。我不该把Hulu原创剧当作心理学洞见的来源，但但这也说得通，对吧？我的意思是，这确实是适应性的。

So maybe it's not true. The pregnancy, I think, I learned. I shouldn't trust, you know, Hulu originals as my source of material for psychological insights, but but it makes sense. Right? I mean, you're it is part of and it's adaptive.

对吧？理解别人的感受是有用的，但我们不能走得太远，因为我们并不是他们。

Right? Understanding how other people are feeling things, but we don't wanna go too far, right, because we're not the same as them.

对。所以你会发现，医疗界的人其实激活这些共情、共享情绪的回路比其他人少得多。

Right. So you find actually for people in the medical world, they activate these shared circuits for empathy, affect sharing, much less than other people.

我正想说，也许还有凶杀案侦探，对吧？他们得面对那么多死者，必须保持临床和理性，不能觉得‘天啊，这太惨了’。

I was gonna say, and also maybe like homicide detectives, right? There's all these dead people they have to be clinical and cognitive about it. They can't feel like, oh my god, this is a terrible tragedy.

对，没错。所以，你知道，对于那些缺乏共情能力的人，你可能需要在这方面努力。

Right. Exactly. And so, you know, so for people who are lacking empathy, you probably wanna work on that.

嗯。

Mhmm.

但在普通人群中，你可能应该把精力更多地放在培养慈悲心上。

But in the typical population, what you probably wanna focus your time working on is compassion instead.

好的。

Okay.

所以你不希望人们陷入他人的痛苦中，以至于无法采取行动，对吧？对。相反，你希望他们把注意力放在慈悲上，真正去做点什么。

So you don't want people to be stuck feeling someone's pain to the point that they can't do anything about it, right? Right. But you want them instead to try to focus on compassion to actually do something.

你们的发现通常有治疗上的意义吗？

Are there generally therapeutic implications for the kind of discoveries you make?

所以，你知道，目前我们的工作集中在自闭症上。

So, you know, right now our work is focused on autism.

嗯哼。

Uh-huh.

我们试图弄清楚自闭症的难点在于它有很多不同的亚型。所以我们正在研究自闭症的不同亚型，并尝试对它们进行分类，这样我们就可以有针对性地进行干预，而不是所有自闭症患者都做同一种干预，而是也许如果你有这种特定的亚型，这种干预对你更有帮助。

So we're trying to figure out the difficulty with autism is that there's so many different subtypes. And so we're working on different subtypes of autism and trying to categorize them so that we can focus interventions, not just everyone with autism gets to do this one intervention, but maybe if you have this particular subtype, this would help you more.

我的意思是，这非常复杂且有争议，你知道，我有朋友的孩子是自闭症，这很情绪化。你会怎么向一个完全不了解自闭症的人解释什么是自闭症？

I mean, know it's very complicated and controversial, and it's, you know, I have friends who have autistic kids, and it's very emotional. How would you just explain what autism is to someone who didn't know what it was?

是的，自闭症被定义为社交互动的缺陷。因此，社交这一块，无法思考他人的情绪、理解他们的意图，可能是自闭症中最大的障碍。此外还有重复行为以及沟通缺陷。

Yeah, so autism is defined by a deficit in social interaction. So the social piece of it, not being able to think about other people's emotions and understand their intentions, is probably the biggest disorder in autism. And then there's also repetitive actions that are made and also communication deficits.

所以就像你不知道别人什么时候生气，或者不知道为什么生气、为什么开心，对吧？你有点读不懂这些信号。

So it's something like you don't know when other people are upset or you don't know why they're upset or why they're happy. Right. You sort don't get those cues.

对，就是处理他人的社交信息。

Right. So processing other people's social information.

这又回到了镜像神经元的一个作用：当我们看到别人看起来高兴或难过时，我们大脑里会触发某种与我们自己高兴或难过时相关的反应，帮助我们理解。是这样吗？

And this goes back to the idea that one of the roles of the mirror neurons is when we see somebody looking happy or looking sad or whatever, there's something goes off in our brain that is related to what happens when we're happy and sad that helps us understand. Is that

正是如此，从神经学角度说，这就是在模拟他人。

Exactly. So this kind of simulating other people from a neurological perspective.

对。

Right.

对。

Right.

我记得在镜像神经元刚被提起的最早时期，就有人把它和自闭症联系起来，有人反对，也有人炒作。那么现在的情况是怎样的？

And I seem to recall that in the very earliest days when mirror neurons were being talked about, this connection with autism was made, and people pushed back on it, and other people hyped it up, so what is the state of play right now?

是的，我们认为自闭症非常异质，可能存在某些类型的自闭症中镜像神经元的作用更大。所以我们正在研究自闭症合并运动障碍的情况。运动障碍是一种发育性协调障碍。很多自闭症孩子都有。

Yeah, so what we think is that autism is very heterogeneous, and there's probably types of autism where mirror neurons are more involved than other types. And so we're actually looking at autism that's comorbid with dyspraxia. Dyspraxia is a developmental disorder of coordination. Okay. And a lot of kids with autism have it.

所以他们协调性较差。

So they're less coordinated.

对，但它尤其是一种运动缺陷。所以，既然这是一种运动缺陷，我们就想，也许这些患有自闭症且伴有运动障碍的孩子更可能出现这种所谓的“镜像神经元破损”假说。

Right, but it's particularly a motor deficit, Okay. And so since it's a motor deficit, we thought that maybe these kids with autism who have dyspraxia are more likely to have this kind of broken mirror hypothesis, if you will.

好的。

Okay.

而数据似乎确实支持这一点。因此，我们的想法是，也许之所以有些研究发现自闭症患者镜像神经元活动较低，而其他研究没有发现，是因为自闭症本身非常异质，你其实不是在观察同一群人。

And the data do seem to support that. And so the idea is that maybe the reason some people find mirror neurons are less active in autism and other people haven't, is that autism is so heterogeneous you're not looking at the same group.

是啊，所以将来某一天，我们会意识到其实有12种不同的情况

Yeah, so someday, again, the future we'll realize there's really 12 different things going on

我们把它们

we lump

全都归在自闭症这个标签下。

them all under the label of autism.

没错。

Exactly.

所以你相当确信，至少其中一部分与

So you're pretty convinced that at least some of them have a heavy involvement with

并不是说这就是唯一的问题。

Not to say that's the only thing going on.

当然。

Sure.

是的，我们发现这些孩子大脑中还有很多其他区域也不同，但这可能只是其中一个组成部分。

Right, so we do find a lot of other brain regions that are also different in these kids, but that this might be one component.

那这有什么治疗意义吗？我们知道了大脑中某个区域在发生什么，但我们不会拿电极去刺激它，那我们还能做什么？

And does that have any therapeutic implications? So we learn something about where in the brain something is happening, but we're not gonna go in there and poke it with an electrode, so what can we do?

嗯，这很复杂。尤其考虑到这可能只是故事的一部分。但有一种对自闭症儿童有一定疗效的疗法叫模仿疗法，你教他们模仿。通过模仿，他们不仅锻炼了所需的神经通路，还试图理解其中的社交含义。

Yeah, so it's complicated. Especially given that this is just probably one piece of the story. But one kind of therapy that has been done with kids with autism with some success is called imitation therapy, where you teach kids with autism to imitate. By imitating, they're not only working the motor pathways that they need to, but also trying to understand the social implications.

这几乎就像他们在训练自己的神经元变成镜像神经元？

Is almost like they're training their neurons to be mirror neurons?

正是如此。是的。所以，这还需要进一步验证，但想法是这种疗法对那些同时患有运动障碍的孩子可能最有效。也许它并不适合每一个自闭症儿童。

Exactly. Yeah. And so, you know, this again needs to be further tested, but the idea is that maybe this kind of therapy would be most effective with these kids who have the additional dyspraxia. And maybe it's not a common therapy to just throw on every kid with autism.

因为假设并不是他们缺乏镜像神经元，而是他们大脑中的神经元只是没有以正确的方式镜像。

Because the hypothesis is not that they lack the mirror neurons, but that the neurons in their brain just aren't mirroring the right way.

对，它们可能工作方式不同。

Right. They might not be working the same way.

好的。所以从某种意义上说，这带来了希望，你可以训练他们做某些可能不自动的事情，但可以教会他们。

Okay. So that in some sense it provides hope in the sense that you can train them to do something that maybe isn't automatic, but can teach them.

对，对。

Right, right.

据我了解，很多自闭症孩子，在最粗略的层面上，会靠自己死记硬背地学会识别社交线索和面部表情，即使他们并不真正——这很抽象。所以这可能是一种更本能的版本，这样说合理吗？

My understanding is a lot of autistic kids, just at the sort of crudest level, train themselves to recognize social cues and emotional things on faces just in a kind of rote way, even if they don't Exactly. Feel look this is very abstract. Right. So this is maybe a more visceral version of that. Is that fair?

没错。好。就是这个意思。一个具身化的版本

Exactly. Yeah. Okay. That's the idea. An embodied version

如果你想要的话。一个具身化的版本，对。很好。而且不只是自闭症儿童，所以嗯。还有更广泛

if want. An embodied version, yes. Very good. And beyond autistic kids, so Yeah. Are there wider

心理方面所以我们做了一系列关于中风患者的研究。

psychological So we did a bunch of studies on stroke patients.

哦，好的。

Oh, okay.

中风之后，你知道，最常见的情况是，如果你因中风出现运动障碍，最常做的就是物理治疗或职业治疗。对。但问题是每天只能做那么多小时，人们会累，对吧？这很辛苦。

So after stroke, you know, the main common, if you have a motor impairment following stroke, the most common thing that you do is physical therapy or occupational therapy. Right. But the problem is there's only so many hours a day you could do that, and people get tired, right? It's a lot of work.

是的。

Yes.

对吧？保险公司只在前三个月买单。

Right? Insurance companies only pay for that for the first three months.

好的。

Okay.

所以一个想法是，如果我们知道观看他人能激活自己的运动系统，那何不制作这些治疗动作的视频，让患者看别人做，对吧？你可以把它当成家庭作业。在患者来做物理或职业治疗的前一晚给他们，他们反复观看，大脑就被激活了。于是第二天真正去做时，他们应该能表现得更好。

And so one idea is if we know that watching other people activates your own motor system, what about creating these videos of therapeutic things that you're watching someone else do, right? You can think of it kind of like homework. You give it to a patient before they come into their PT or OT, and the night before, and they're watching these over and over again, the brain is getting primed. And so the idea is that when they go to do that the next day, they should actually be better.

对，对。

Right, right.

所以我们确实也找到了一些支持这一点的证据。

And so we do find some support for that as well.

所以当中风发生时，因为我对这个完全不了解，损伤主要在大脑里还是遍布全身？

So when you have a stroke is, since I know nothing about this, is most of the damage in your brain or is it throughout your body?

不，中风是专门针对大脑的。专门针对大脑。

No, so stroke is specific to the brain. Specific to the brain.

嗯。那它主要是对神经元的物理损伤，还是只是——对，算是——

Yeah. And is it mostly physical damage to the neurons or is it just Yes. Sort of

对。

Yeah.

所以在某种意义上，它是脑部的病变。脑部的一个损伤。好的。嗯。所以职业物理治疗，就是拉伸和尝试新的运动技能。

So in some sense It's lesion. A lesion in the brain. Okay. Yeah. So occupational physical therapy, you're stretching and trying new motor skills.

对。所以你希望这能重新连接大脑。

Right. So you're hoping that would rewire the brain.

但你说到底还是大脑，我们可以尝试用更直接以大脑为中心的方法来重新连接大脑。

But you're saying it is the brain after all, we can try to rewire the brain in more directly brain centered ways.

或者说，你知道，通过思考，没错吧？如果我们相信这种具身认知，那么除了实际运动，还有其他方式可以激活这些运动系统。

Or you know, by thinking, exactly, right? And if we believe in this embodied cognition, then there's other ways to activate these motor systems beyond just moving

那么，我们有没有尝试虚拟现实之类的？

so parts of the do we try virtual reality?

虚拟现实可能会非常有帮助。但对中风患者来说有点困难，因为他们会感到头晕并摔倒，你知道的。

Virtual reality could be very helpful. It's a little more difficult with people with stroke because they can get dizzy and fall down and, you know.

对，好的。

Right, okay.

所以你在做的时候要小心。但仅仅让他们看这些影片似乎也挺有效的。

Right, so you wanna be careful when you do that. But, you know, just having them watch these movies seems to be pretty effective also.

好的，非常好。那对于那些看起来不太有同理心的人呢？那些没有明显生理问题的人怎么办？

Okay, Very good. And what about just people who don't seem that empathetic? What about people who don't have an obvious physiological issue?

你是说像精神病患者？

You mean like a psychopath?

对。或者，你知道，就是夫妻治疗。有人

Yeah. Or, you know, just, couples therapy. Someone is

不分享

not sharing

他们伴侣的愿望那么多

their partner's desires as much

是的，这方面最全面的研究其实是Tanya Singer的实验室在做。她发现她让人们长期进行正念冥想和不同类型的正念冥想。我不知道具体他们做了多久。但她让他们要么做共情

as Yeah, they so the most comprehensive study of this being done is actually being done by Tanya Singer's lab. And what she finds is she has people do mindful meditation and different kinds of mindful meditation for a long term. I don't know exactly the details of how long they're doing it for. But she has them either do sympathy

好的。

Okay.

慈悲训练、正念冥想。它被称为慈心正念冥想，或者某种对照，她发现进行这种冥想确实会在这些网络中带来结构性的变化。

Compassion training, mindful meditation. It's something called loving kindness, mindful meditation, or some kind of control And what she finds is that actually doing this kind of meditation increases structural changes in these networks.

在大脑里。

In the brain.

在大脑里。

In the brain.

看到大脑因为你在冥想而重新布线。

See the brain wiring itself differently because you're doing meditation.

正是如此。而且还有功能上的变化，以及行为上的变化。

Exactly. And also functional changes and also behavioral changes as well.

有趣。我觉得人们听到“重新连接大脑”这个说法时会有些害怕或者过于惊叹，就像说这会重新连接大脑。但实际上，我们每时每刻做的任何事都在重新连接我们的大脑，对吧？我们记住的每一个记忆都在重新连接我们的大脑。

Interesting. I think that people get a little bit scared or overly impressed by the phrase, know, rewiring the brain, like this rewires the brain. But in fact, everything we do at any moment in time is always rewiring our brain, right? Every memory we take is memory we remember

所以重新连接我们的大脑。她觉得有趣的是，在这些网络中——无论是慈悲网络、同情网络还是共情网络——都能看到这些变化，取决于你在冥想中专注于哪一个。

is So rewiring our So the interesting thing for her is that she sees these in these, either the compassion network or the sympathy network or the empathy network, depending on which one you're focusing on in your meditation.

我觉得你已经说过了，但这仍然让我惊讶。我们可以用fMRI看到某个区域亮起来，然后说，哦，那就是同情网络？

And I think you've said this already, but it's still remarkable to me. So we can take an fMRI and see a place light up and go, oh, that's the sympathy network?

嗯，对。所以共情网络、情绪共振网络，似乎位于这些情绪区域、镜像神经元区域等等。而同情网络则倾向于在前额叶皮层、颞顶交界处以及楔前叶。

Mhmm, right. So again, the empathy network, the emotion resonance ones, seems to be in these emotion regions, mirror neuron regions, and so forth. The sympathy regions tend to be prefrontal cortex, temporoparietal junction, and the precuneus.

当你看到大脑的这部分负责这种情绪反应时，越来越难以坚持心物二元论了，对吧？

It does become harder and harder to be a mind body dualist when you see this part of the brain is responsible for this emotional reaction, right?

对，对。所以，是啊。我的意思是，有些人会争辩——我不确定他们是不是错了——存在这种具身认知，但同情网络可能跟那不一样。

Right, right. So, yeah. I mean, so there are people who would argue, and I'm not sure they're wrong, that there is this embodied cognition, but the sympathy network might be different than that.

我明白了。

I see.

它可能更抽象。

And it might be more abstract.

对。

Right.

这很复杂，因为前额叶皮层仍然从身体接收大量信息。这些区域都一样。是啊。不过，嗯。

It's complicated because the prefrontal cortex also still gets a lot of information from the body. As do all these regions. Yeah. But, yeah.

在科学进展的这个阶段，我的默认想法是：我们对神经科学其实一无所知。我们有一些不错的点子，其中一些最终会被证明是对的，但我们没资格对某些想法比另一些更有信心。因为就像你说的，这真的——它比物理复杂多了。

My default at this stage of scientific progress is to think that we don't know anything about neuro science at all. We have some good ideas and some of them will turn out to be right, but we have no right to be confident in some ideas versus others. Because like you say, it's really, it's way more complicated than physics It's

复杂得多。所以，为了更具体地体现这一点，我们刚刚拿到一笔资金，要加入一个微生物群的组成部分。

way more complicated. So actually just to embody this even more, one of the things that we're now got some funding to do is to add a microbiota component.

好，解释一下这是什么意思。

Okay, explain what that means.

好啊，你肠道里有很多细菌，它们其实会跟你肠道里的神经元互动。

Yeah, so you have these bacteria in your gut, and they actually interact with neurons in your gut.

肠道里的神经元。

Neurons in your gut.

是的，你的大脑里有不同的系统，身体里也有不同的系统，比如免疫系统等等，它们会与大脑相互作用。回到自闭症这个话题，我们知道很多自闭症儿童都有肠胃问题。研究还发现，他们的肠道菌群与普通人群不同。鉴于我们现在知道这些菌群会通过胃里的内脏神经元或能进入大脑的代谢物间接与大脑互动，它们确实会影响大脑。那么这些菌群——问题来了，这一切是如何联系在一起的？

Yes, and with your different systems in the brain, and different systems in the body, so your immune systems and so forth, and those interact with the brain. And so, going back to autism, we know that a lot of kids with autism have stomach problems. And it has been found that they also have different microbiota than the typical population. And given that we also know that the microbiota are now interacting, not directly, indirectly with either visceral neurons in the stomach or through metabolites that can travel to the brain, they interact with the brain. So these microbiota, then the question is, how does this all fit together?

对吧？那么这些细菌在你胃里到底做了什么，又是怎样影响大脑功能和行为的呢？

Right? So how do what's going on in your stomach with these bacteria interact with brain functioning and with behavior?

所以你的意思是，当人们说自己“凭直觉”做决定时，他们可能真的在字面意义上这么做了。

So you're saying when people claim that they make decisions with their gut, they might be literally doing that.

完全正确，完全正确。

Exactly, exactly.

这挺吓人的，而且我认识一些这样的人。我在一期播客里和卡尔·齐默聊过微生物组。我们体内寄宿的微生物细胞数量几乎和人体细胞一样多。这又回到那些更大的哲学问题上——这就是具身认知。

That's scary, and I know some people like that. I talked about this on a podcast with Carl Zimmer, the microbiome. We have all these microbes living in approximately the same number of cells in the microbiome as there are human cells in our body. And that gets back to, you know, I just keep wanting to go to these bigger philosophical questions. That's embodied cognition.

身体很重要，这说得通。所以当人们试图构建人工智能时，一个挑战就在于它们不仅没有身体，也没有身体赋予我们的那些动机，比如饥饿、困倦等等。嗯。

And it kind of makes sense that our body is important. So one of the things that is gonna be a challenge when people try to construct artificial intelligences is that they don't have not just bodies, but the motivations that the body gives us. Right? Hunger and sleepiness and things like that. Mhmm.

我们通过研究具身认知，是不是也在了解人工智能的前景？

Are we learning about the prospects for artificial intelligence by studying embodied cognition?

我觉得我们主要是在体会，要造出这样一个系统有多复杂。尤其是当你把身体和这些细菌的互动也考虑进去时，它们究竟如何影响我们的认知和思维方式等等。

I think we're just mainly understanding how complicated it would be to create a system. And then especially when you introduce the interaction of the body with these bacteria. And so how is that influencing our cognition and how we think and so forth?

是啊，市面上不是有书说要把大脑上传到矩阵里，让我们在模拟现实中永生吗？所以你的观点就是，那比人们想象的还要难，因为一旦上传上去，你就没有身体了。

Yeah, I mean, think that there are books about uploading our brains, right, into the matrix and just letting us live in the simulated reality. So will be basically your point is just that's even harder than you think, because you don't have a body once you're up there.

完全正确，而且身体带来的一切也随之消失。

Exactly, and everything that goes with it.

对。我是说，我一直认为，即便你能把神经元及其连接逐份复制到电脑里，那也不会完全是你，因为这些输入不同。它可能只是——也许它会有意识。

Right. I mean, I've long thought that it just wouldn't be, even if you could copy piece by piece all of your neurons and all their connections into the computer, it wouldn't be a copy of you exactly because of these things, because your inputs are different. It's it's just gonna be I mean, maybe it'll be conscious.

嗯。

Mhmm.

也许它会有智能。

Maybe it'll be intelligent.

嗯。

Mhmm.

但它不会有同样的动机。不同。它会不一样。它会不一样。它不会是你。

But it won't have the motivation. Different. It'll be different. It'll be different. Be it won't be you.

是啊。而且，如果以这种方式上传大脑，似乎也不算永生，对吧？

Yeah. And, yeah, somehow it doesn't count as immortality if you upload our brain in that way. Right?

不算。很遗憾。

No. Unfortunately.

但还有——我忘了那个词了——扩展认知，意思是我们把周围环境也当作认知能力的一部分，对吧？这比具身认知更进一步。

But then there's also I I forget what the word is, but there's the idea extended cognition, the idea that we use our environment around us as part of our cognitive capacities. Right? That's more that's that goes beyond embodied cognition.

对。所以情境背景，以及你所处的环境，也极其重要。

Right. So that the context of the situation, right, and the environment that you're in also is extremely important.

所以如果我记笔记来帮助记忆，那本笔记本就该被视为我认知系统的一部分。

So if I take notes to remember something, I should count that notepad as part of my cognitive system.