如何进入隐藏市场及成为超级沟通高手

嗨，秃头。我是崔茜·马特尔，骨感传奇兼持证暖通空调品鉴师。

Hi, Bald. It's me, Trixie Mattel, skinny legend and board certified HVAC sommelier.

还有我，卡佳·扎马列丘科娃，娱乐圈最汗流浃背的生物提醒您订阅《秃头与美人》播客。我们将探讨从智能马桶使用指南到名人模仿教程，再到一部电视剧

And me, Katya Zamalechukova, the sweatiest creature in showbiz reminding you to subscribe to the Bald and the Beautiful podcast. Listen as we cover topics as varied as proper bidet usage, celebrity impression tutorials, and a television show

我最近看的那部剧，接下来六周我的整个人设都会以它为蓝本。

I recently watched that I'll base my entire personality on for six weeks.

以及创意灭虫法、美味青柠汁配方和趣味性爱潮流。

As well as creative pest control, tasty limeade recipes, and fun sex act trend.

我们还会聊胸部、电影、假发之类的，这显然是本播客的公益环节

We also chat about boobs and movies and wigs and stuff, which is obviously the public service part

准备好听两位极不专业的变装皇后尖叫、大笑并偶尔传授人生经验，她们将诠释何为极致魅力。

of the podcast. So get ready for screaming, cackling, and some occasional educational moments as two massively unqualified queens talk about what it's like to be the epitome of fabulous.

快去苹果播客、Spotify或你正在使用的平台订阅崔茜·马特尔和卡佳·佐米列奇科娃主持的《秃头与美人》。

Go subscribe to the bald and the beautiful with Trixie Mattel and Katya Zomilechkova on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you're listening right now.

今日《你应该知道的事》：为何Hooters餐厅没有男服务员？接着探讨如何玩转隐形市场。它们究竟是什么？

Today on something you should know, why are there no male waiters at Hooters? Then learning how to play the game of hidden markets. What are they?

如果你想光顾热门餐厅，或是观看抢手演唱会，但票已售罄。这些都构成了隐形市场——只要更懂规则，你就有机会获得心仪之物。

If you wanna go to a hot restaurant, if you wanna go to see a popular concert, and all the might be sold out. And all of these constitute hidden markets, places where if you understand the rules better, you actually might be able to get things that you want.

此外，为何多笑能助你减肥？精彩对话的要素是什么？如何拥有更多这样的对话？

Also, why laughing more can help you lose weight. And what makes a great conversation and how to have more of them.

回想你人生中最棒的对话，如果把对话记录摊开看，会发现它简直一团糟。我们不断开启话题，又被其他想法带偏，还时不时插进问题——这正是精彩对话的模样。

If you think about the best conversations that you've ever had in your life, if I was to look at a transcript of that conversation, it would look like a mess. We are starting ideas, and then we're getting distracted by other ideas, and then I'm interjecting with questions. Those are what great conversations look like.

以上内容尽在今日《你应该知道的事》。

All this today on Something You Should Know.

啊，摄政时期。你可能通过《布里奇顿》或简·奥斯汀的作品了解过这个时代。它也是社会变革的爆发期，充斥着性丑闻，或许还拥有一位英国史上最糟糕的国王。《粗鄙历史》新季聚焦摄政时期的舞会、礼服与丑闻。各大播客平台均可收听。

Ah, the Regency era. You might know it as the time when Bridgerton takes place, or as the time when Jane Austen wrote her books. The Regency era was also an explosive time of social change, sex scandals, and maybe the worst king in British history. Vulgar history's new season is all about the regency era, the balls, the gowns, and all the scandal. Listen to Vulgar History Regency era wherever you get podcasts.

《你应该知道的事》——精彩洞见、世界顶级专家建议、以及实用生活指南。今天由迈克·卡鲁瑟斯为您呈现。

Something you should know, fascinating intel, the world's top experts, and practical advice you can use in your life. Today, something you should know with Mike Carruthers.

你有没有想过为什么Hooters餐厅没有男服务员？这不是歧视吗？今天我们就从这个你应该知道的问题开始。大家好，欢迎收听。

Have you ever wondered why there are no male waiters at Hooters? Wouldn't that be discrimination? Well, that's the question we're gonna start with today on something you should know. Hi. Welcome.

我是迈克·克拉瑟斯。男性在餐厅提供餐饮服务的能力看似与女性相当，但在Hooters你却找不到任何男服务员。这看起来像是歧视。1997年就有几位男性这么认为，并对该公司提起了诉讼。

I'm Mike Carruthers. So men are seemingly just as qualified to serve food and drinks in a restaurant as women are. Yet you won't find any male waiters at Hooters. So that seems like discrimination. And a few men thought so back in 1997 and filed a lawsuit against the company.

Hooters最终以约375万美元达成和解，同意向男性开放部分餐厅岗位，但不包括服务员职位。公司辩称女性身份属于所谓的真实职业资格（BFOQ），这是《民权法案》中的例外条款，允许在业务必需的特殊情况下进行性别定向招聘。Hooters声称其服务员是餐厅娱乐体验的一部分，而不仅仅是餐饮服务，因此适用BFOQ条款。

Hooters ended up settling for about $3,750,000 and they agreed to open some restaurant jobs to men, but not server positions. The company argued that being female is part of what's called a bona fide occupational qualification or BFOQ. It's an exception in the Civil Rights Act that allows gender based hiring in rare cases where it is essential to the business. Hooters claims its servers are part of the restaurant's entertainment experience, not just food service. So the BFOQ applies.

西南航空曾在1981年尝试过相同论点，但联邦法院裁定其不能只雇佣女性空乘，指出航空公司主营业务是运输而非娱乐。这是你应该知道的。如果能自己创造运气，或至少让概率向你倾斜该多好——无论是订到爆满餐厅的座位、抢到演唱会门票、让孩子进入理想学校，还是找到器官捐赠者。许多情况下，关键在于懂得如何进入经济学家所说的隐藏市场，这些市场不以金钱运作，而是依赖信息、人脉和时机。

Now Southwest Airlines tried the same argument back in 1981, but a federal court ruled that Southwest could not hire only women as flight attendants, saying the airline's main business was transportation, not entertainment. And that is something you should know. Wouldn't it be great if you could make your own luck, or at least tilt the odds in your favor, whether it's scoring a table at a booked out restaurant or landing concert tickets, getting your kids into the right school, or even finding an organ donor. In many cases, it's knowing how to access what economists call hidden markets. These are markets that don't run on money, but on information, relationships, and timing.

只要理解其运作规律，你就能极大提升成功概率。下面有请宾夕法尼亚大学沃顿商学院的商业经济学与公共政策教授贾德·凯斯勒为我们解析。他入选过《福布斯》30位30岁以下法律与政策精英，著有《设计幸运：实现愿望所需的隐藏经济学》一书。嗨，贾德。

And if you understand how they work, you can dramatically increase your chances of success. Here to explain this is Jud Kessler. He's a professor of business economics and public policy at the Wharton School at the University of Pennsylvania. He was named one of Forbes 30 under 30 in law and policy, and he's author of a book called Lucky by Design, the hidden economics you need to get more of what you want. Hey, Judd.

欢迎收听本期《你应该知道的事》。

Welcome to something you should know.

非常感谢邀请。

Thanks so much for having me.

那么请带我们更深入地了解隐性市场。它们究竟是什么？

So take us a little deeper into hidden markets. What are they exactly?

是的。世界上有许多事物是通过我称之为隐性市场的方式分配的，这些可能并不显而易见。所以你们不会立即发现它们也很正常。但这些市场分配的都是我们关心和想要的东西。我称它们为隐性市场，是因为它们不涉及价格分配机制，这种运作方式对我们来说很陌生。

Yeah. So there are so many things in this world that are doled out in what I call hidden markets that might not be obvious to you. So it's not a surprise that you don't kind of see them immediately. But they are allocating things that we care about, things that we want. And I call them hidden markets because they're unfamiliar in the sense that they don't involve prices allocating things.

这是我们习惯在市场中获取所需的方式——去商店看到标价，然后决定是否购买。但在隐性市场中，价格并不能帮我们获得想要的东西。可能存在价格，但它不起决定作用，这正是市场隐性之处。

That's the way that we're used to kind of getting things that we want in markets. As we go to the store, we see a price, we decide if we want to pay that price. In hidden markets, the price is not going to help us get what we want. There might be a price, but it's not gonna be doing the work, and that's what makes the market hidden.

好的。那么我们来讨论一些现实中的例子吧。

Great. Okay. So let's talk about some real life examples.

嗯，例子有很多。比如你想去一家热门餐厅，你

K. Well, there's a ton of examples. And if you wanna go to a hot restaurant, you're

要

going

尝试预订，但可能有很多人想去那家餐厅用餐，而好的预订时段已经没有了。想看热门演唱会或戏剧演出时，你可能发现当晚所有场次都已售罄。还有些潮流商品需要排长队才能买到。这些情况下虽然需要支付餐费、票款，但价格并非分配的唯一决定因素。此外还有更复杂的市场，比如我们日常参与的劳动力市场、婚恋市场，以及大学录取、中小学入学等教育市场——公立学校虽不收费，但有一套录取规则决定谁能入学。

to try to get a reservation, but there might be many people who want to eat at that restaurant, and there might not be good reservations available. If you want to go to see a popular concert or a theater production, you might say, okay, let me go get a ticket for that night, and all the shows might be sold out. There are products that are kind of fad products where, you know, you you would need to wait on a long line to get access to them. And in those cases, are prices, like you do pay for the dinner, you do pay for the ticket, but the price is not doing all the work for the allocation. And then there are other markets that are even more complex that we play in on a regular basis, labor markets, dating markets, markets for, you know, college admissions or getting into an elementary school or middle school or high school, where there may or may not be a price that public schools don't charge you, but there's some set of rules that decides who gets in and who doesn't.

所有这些构成了隐性市场。在这些地方，如果你更了解规则，实际上可能获得你想要的东西，而如果未能完全掌握规则，这些东西可能与你无缘。

And all of these constitute hidden markets. They're places where if you understand the rules better, you actually might be able to get things that you want, which might be unavailable to you if you didn't fully internalize the rules.

请解释一下，因为你刚才举的几个例子中，规则都是先到先得——演唱会门票、餐厅预订。这就是规则。如果能让你更快入场。如果你早点打电话，可能就能订到位子。我不明白这有什么技巧可言。

So explain because in several of the examples you just gave, the rule is first come, first serve, concert tickets, reservations. That's the rule. And if that's what gets you in quicker. If you had called sooner, you might get a table. I don't know how you gain that.

我是说，规则就是如此。

I mean, that that is what it is.

先到先得很常见，因为我们参与的许多市场都采用某种形式的先到先得规则。有趣的是，这其实有不同版本。有些是先到先得的竞赛，比如成为网站餐厅预订页面的第一个点击者，或是第一个打进电话的人。即使看似无法钻规则空子，你仍能在这些市场中表现更好。首先要意识到这种竞赛的存在。

First come, first serve is great because it's in lots of different markets that we play in, have some version of first come, first serve. And what's interesting about that is that there's actually different versions of it. There's first come, first serve races where it really is about kind of being the first person to click on a, say, a restaurant reservation on a on a website or the first person to call in. So you can do better in those markets, even if it doesn't seem like it, even if it doesn't seem like you can game the rules. The first thing is you have to know that the race exists.

很多时候我们被拒之门外，是因为没有及时意识到这是场先到先得的竞赛。比如想在加州纳帕谷的知名餐厅French Laundry订位——如果你周四想订周六的位置，根本不可能成功，因为这场先到先得的竞赛早在六周前就开始了，他们在上月首日就放出了下个月全部预订名额。所以首先要知晓竞赛的存在，其次要在开赛前准备就绪并制定计划。因为当你还在考虑具体用餐时间时，那些早已锁定目标的人已经出手了。

A lot of times when we find that we're blocked out of something, it's because we didn't realize early enough that it was a first come, first serve race. If you try to get a reservation at the French Laundry, very popular restaurant in California, in the Napa Valley, right, and if you go on Thursday hoping to get a reservation on Saturday, you're not going to be able to do it because the first come, first serve race was run a month and a half ago when they released all the reservations for the following month on the first of the preceding month. So the first thing is just to know that a race exists. Second thing is to be there ready to run and with a plan in mind before the race starts. Because while you are thinking about exactly what time you want to eat, other people who have, you know, already decided what they're going to go for are going for it.

还有种策略我认为很难运用，因为它违背我们的直觉——在许多隐性市场中，你必须表现得像是没那么心仪的选择才是你的首选。通过我称之为'屈居次优'的策略，主动追求非首选目标并视其为第一选择，反而能助你成功。

And then there's a strategy that I think is hard to play because it kind of goes against our intuition about what we should be doing, which is that in a lot of hidden markets, you have to act as if something that you are not as excited about is actually your first choice. In a lot of markets, you can do better by doing what I call settling for silver, by going for something that is not your first choice, acting like it's your first choice, and that can actually help you succeed.

这方面的一个例子是

An example of that is

回想我们刚才讨论的餐厅预订例子。如果你知道大家都想在晚上7点或7点半用餐——因为这是最抢手的预订时段——那么这个时段的竞争就会异常激烈。但如果你换个思路说：好吧，虽然我其实不太想5点吃饭，但我真的很想去这家餐厅，我决定表现得就像5点时段是我的首选。当你选择竞争较少的时段时，反而能成功订到原本可能无缘的位置。餐厅预订或许不是人生大事，但同样的逻辑在我们更关注的其他市场中同样适用。

Think about the restaurant reservation example we were just talking about. If you know that everybody wants to eat at 07:00 or 07:30PM because that's, you know, the desirable reservation time, then there's going to be a ton of competition for that reservation. And so if you instead say, all right, look, I don't, I don't really want to eat at 05:00, but I really do want to go to this restaurant, I really want to get in, I'm going to act as if the 05:00 reservation is my first choice. And if you go for that first where there's less competition, you actually can succeed in getting stuff that otherwise would be unavailable to you. And, you a restaurant reservation might not be the be all and end all, but the same logic plays out in other markets that we care about more.

大学申请就是个典型例子。当你决定申请哪所大学时，必须考虑是否要提交早申（Early Decision）。早申意味着你承诺一旦录取就必须入学。学校喜欢这种确定性的生源，这能提高他们的入学率。因此早申者会获得更高的录取概率。但当你选择早申学校时，可能会忍不住瞄准梦校——那个你最向往的学府。

So, college admissions is one where when you are deciding, you know, where to apply for college, one of the decisions you have to make is, if you're going to apply somewhere, early decision. So early decision, you're agreeing to go to the school, you're committing to go to the school, when you apply. And schools like this, they like when you are going to come for sure, they like having high yield. So if you apply early decision, they give you, increased chance of getting in. And when you're deciding where to apply early decision, you you're picking this one school, you might be tempted to go for the school that you really want the best.

那是你的黄金选择、第一志愿，但可能以你的成绩和考试分数，即便早申也难以被录取，因为竞争太激烈了。这种情况下，如果你转而选择第二或第三志愿——这个白银选项的学校，通过早申反而可能成功入学。在这类市场中，这才是更明智的策略。

That's your your gold choice option, your first choice, it might be that that school's out of reach for you, that, you know, given your grades and your test scores, you're probably not going to get in even if you apply early decision because it's too competitive. And in this case, if you say, alright, I'm going to go for my second or third choice school, so you're settling for this silver choice option, but it might be a place where if you apply early decision, you actually can get in, and that is going to be a smarter strategy in a market like that.

似乎在这些市场中，竞争本身就在延续市场活力。人们越是进不去的餐厅，就越多人想去，因为能进去的人实在太少。而能成功进入本身就成了一种荣耀，这就像给结果加了助推器。

It seems that in those markets, the race itself perpetuates the markets. That you want to get into the restaurants you can't get into, then therefore more people want to go because fewer people can get in. And it seems so cool to be able to get in. It it like boosts the outcome.

我认为这就是这类隐形市场如此普遍的原因。卖家的策略之一就是制造超额需求：要么把价格压得足够低，要么把供应量控得足够少，让想要的人远多于能获得的人。潮流产品就是典型例子——比如今年夏天爆红的Lububu娃娃。

This is, I think, why these types of hidden markets are so prevalent, that one of the strategies that sellers have is to say, I'm going to create excess demand. I'm going to have my price low enough, or I'm going to cut my supply down enough that there is going to be more people who want something than, than can be served. And you can see this with fad products. There was a product, this summer that is still popular, called Lububus. They're these little dolls.

它们被称为丑萌娃娃。我个人觉得挺丑的，但今夏有多篇报道都在讲人们抢购这些产品有多难。正因如此我才听说了它们，而一旦知道后就会发现到处都能见到。但商家泡泡玛特深谙此道：通过制造抢购热潮，这些产品采用先到先得的销售模式。

They're called ugly cute dolls. I kind of find them ugly myself, but but there is a a set of articles that came out this summer about how hard it is for folks to get these products. And that's the reason why I have heard of them. And once you hear them, you start seeing them everywhere. But the seller, Pop Mart, has decided that the the intense desire to get the thing, and and this is one that's offered in first come, first serve races.

他们会进行线上限量发售，采用先到先得的排队机制。你会看到人们在零售店外排队数小时等待购买。哈罗德百货还举办每周抽奖活动销售Lububu娃娃——我在伦敦时就遇到过。这显然是通过制造稀缺性来吸引大量关注的产品案例。

They they do drops of the product that you can buy online. It's offered in first come first served lines. You see people standing, you know, outside of a retail outlet when they're gonna make some available for sale, and they kind of wait for for hours to get one. And it's offered in lotteries where, you know, I was in London and Harrods had a, raffle, weekly raffle for a Lububu doll that they had, for sale. And so you can see that this is a case where lots of attention is being drawn to the product because there is scarcity.

这能持续激发后续需求，或许正是卖家热衷于为其产品打造隐形市场的原因。

And that can perpetuate demand later on, and that might be why the sellers are interested in in creating a hidden market for their product.

这些案例中最令我着迷的是——你永远无法预判哪个产品会爆火。像Stanley水杯、Trader Joe's购物袋这些突然走红的产品，你第一反应肯定是'这也行？'这种热潮既难以预测又难以解释。即便你精心策划了'少量供应+巨大需求'的营销策略，若无人问津，最终仍会满盘皆输。

What I've always been fascinated in those cases is you can't predict though that this is gonna be a hot product. And some of the products that become hot, you would think, what? Like the Stanley water cup and Trader Joe's shopping bags and they became so hot, but but why? And and how unpredictable is that? So you may have all the best of intentions of creating a small a small supply and big demand, but if nobody comes, well, you lose.

确实。对企业来说，刻意制造产品稀缺性未必奏效。多数时候你需要保证产品可及性才能促进销售、创造收益。心理学和行为经济学研究证明，人们确实存在从众心理——会受他人行为影响。

Yeah. I mean, it's not it's not necessarily gonna work for a firm to say, you know, I'm gonna, make it hard to get my product. A lot of times you wanna make your product available so people will buy it and and, you can generate revenue. There is evidence from psychology and from behavioral economics that people do respond to what others do. There is a herd mentality.

当我看见餐厅门口排起长龙，自然会推断这家店更优质。企业就是在玩这种心理游戏：他们需要优质产品作为基础，更需要足够多愿意尝鲜的消费者来制造供不应求的假象。同时精妙控制可购买量，让路人看见排队场景后产生加入的冲动。

I I see a line form around the block. I do infer that the restaurant is better. So, you know, I I think firms play this game where they, you know, they need something good. They need there to be enough people who wanna at least, you know, try the thing to to make it, have excess demand. But they may kind of be clever about how much access they give in the hopes that, you know, others will will see the line around the block and and wanna join it.

我们正在探讨隐形市场，特邀嘉宾是《设计幸运》作者贾德·凯斯勒，他将揭秘如何运用隐藏经济学原理获得更多你想要的资源。

We're talking about hidden markets, and my guest is Judd Kessler, author of Lucky by Design, the hidden economics you need to get more of what you want.

当'石狼'精英突击队的五名成员年轻时，他们曾反抗统治着银河系多数宜居星球的克拉特罗坎帝国暴政。这群为自由而战的狼群最终失败，身后只留下累累尸骸。心灰意冷的成员们解甲归田，在充满暴力与压迫的宇宙中各自寻找微小安宁。四十年后，当他们都试图苟活度日时，一位故友与宿敌却再次搅乱了他们的生活。《石狼》是斯科特·西格勒创作的银河橄榄球联盟科幻系列第十一季。

When they were young, the five members of an elite commando group nicknamed the Stone Wolves raged against the oppressive rule of the Crateroccan Empire, which occupies and dominates most of the galaxy's inhabited planets. The wolves fought for freedom, but they failed, leaving countless corpses in their wake. Defeated and disillusioned, they hung up their guns and went their separate ways, all hoping to find some small bit of peace amidst a universe thick with violence and oppression. Four decades after their heyday, they each try to stay alive and eke out a living, but a friend from the past won't let them move on, and neither will their bitterest enemy. The Stone Wolves is season eleven of the Galactic Football League science fiction series by author Scott Sigler.

本季故事可独立欣赏，也可从第一季《菜鸟赛季》开始收听完整GFL系列。搜索Scott Sigler（西格勒）姓名即可在任意播客平台获取。

Enjoy it as a standalone story or listen to the entire GFL series beginning with season one, The Rookie. Search for Scott Sigler, s I g l e r, wherever you get your podcasts.

大家好，我是弗雷德·格林豪格，曾执导过《DC高音量蝙蝠侠》和《星际迷航大会》等广播剧。但我最钟爱的始终是惊悚题材，很高兴告诉大家我的恐怖播客《暗流》新一季上线了。本季名为《熟悉的幽灵》，由独立恐怖故事组成，揭示过去从未真正消逝，而人性可能是最残忍的怪物。《熟悉的幽灵》现已上线。

Hi there. Fred Greenhulge here, director of audio dramas like DC high volume Batman and Star Trek con. However, my one true love remains all things spooky, and I'm excited to say there's a new season of my horror podcast Undertow. This season is called Familiar Haunts, standalone horror tales that reveal how the past is never truly gone and humanity may be the most ruthless monster of them all. Familiar haunts is available now.

订阅《暗流》即可收听，在您当前收听本播客的应用程序等平台搜索《暗流》即可找到。

Find it by subscribing to Undertow wherever you get your podcasts, such as the app where you're listening to me right now. Search for Undertow.

贾德，隐性市场的运作方式往往会筛除掉那些并非真正想要的人。就像你说的纳帕谷法国洗衣坊餐厅的例子——我最近刚去过纳帕谷，但绝不会去那里用餐，因为我根本不是那种会提前一个半月订位的人。我就是做不到，所以永远也不会去。

So, Judd, it seems like the way the hidden markets often work is it weeds out the people who really don't want something. And your example of the going to the French Laundry in Napa Valley at that restaurant. And I was just in Napa Valley, but I would never eat at the French Laundry because I'm just not the kind of person who's gonna make a dinner reservation a month and a half in advance. I'm just I'm not gonna do it, so I'm never gonna go.

没错。这很正常。任何隐性市场的关键在于：你必须先弄清楚自己真正想要什么。如果你想在一个人人争抢、供不应求的市场里胜出的话。

Yeah. And that's fine. I mean, one of the things that is true of any of these hidden markets is that you need to figure out what it is that you actually want. If right? If you're gonna try to succeed in a market where what you're going for is something that other people, you know, are also going for, that that you're in a situation where there is excess demand.

首先得判断是否值得参与。对你而言法国洗衣坊不值得，这完全没问题。纳帕谷还有其他顶级餐厅可选。但当你确实需要参与时——比如上大学，或者但愿你不会遇到这种情况——需要无法直接购买的救命器官移植时，就有一套市场规则决定分配。这时你必须明白：这个市场的运作规则是什么？

You have to decide first if it's worth playing. So in your case for the French Laundry, it's not worth playing, and that's fine. There's other great restaurants in the Napa Valley to go to. But when you are in a situation where you do want to play, you do want to go to college, you, you know, hopefully, are never in this situation, but you might need a life saving organ transplant that you can't just go out and buy, that there is a set of market rules that will decide who gets it. And in those cases, you have to understand, okay, what are the rules that are going on in this market?

我真正想要什么？我能采取的最佳策略是什么？要理解规则本质：是先到先得？还是包含抽签机制？

What is it that I want? And, you know, what is the best strategy that I can use to get it? And and understanding what the rules are. Is it first come, first serve, like we talked about? Is there a lottery component?

我能否通过在不同移植中心登记来加入多个等待名单获取救命器官？在所有这些情况下，若你决定参与某个市场，就必须先弄清规则，再制定获取目标的策略。

Can I get on multiple waiting lists by signing up at different transplant centers for that lifesaving organ transplant? In all of these situations, if it is a market you want to play in, you need to figure out the rules and then figure out what strategy you can use to to get what you want.

嗯，我一直认为，在你刚才描述的那种情况下，负责的人已经考虑到人们可能会钻制度的空子，所以设置了障碍。比如，你不能在两个州操作，只能在一个州登记，而且你只能列在一个名单上。他们早就堵住了这些漏洞。

Well, I always figure that in cases like you just described, that the people who who are in charge have figured out that people might try to game the system and that there are roadblocks up. Like, you can't do it in two states. You can only do it in one state, and you can't you can only be on one list. Like, they they they've already plugged those holes.

我们可能愿意相信每个人都对这些市场的设计有充分了解，如果有漏洞就会被填补。但现实中并非如此。很多市场的形成是历史偶然，或者由某个好心人制定了一套规则，却没有考虑全局。如果你能认识到在很多情况下存在提升机会的方法，就能为自己争取更好的结果。

We might like to think that that everybody is kind of on top of the design of these markets and that if there was a loophole, they would fill it. In reality, that's not the case. A lot of markets are created by historical accident or, you know, some well meaning person creates a set of rules for a market but but isn't thinking about the big picture. You can do better for yourself if you recognize that in a lot of these situations, there are ways to improve your chances.

这个现象有被研究过吗？你有没有观察过那些真正利用系统的人，他们是否真的能获得更好的结果？还是这更多是理论上的推测？

And has that been studied? Have you have you looked at people who really work the system, and do they really do better? Or is this more of a theory on paper?

可以肯定的是，如果你同时登记在多个器官移植等待名单上，你获得器官分配的几率确实会更高。而且有著名的案例表明，有人在我们意想不到的地方获得了器官。比如史蒂夫·乔布斯在田纳西州获得了肝脏移植，而众所周知他住在加利福尼亚。当然，我不知道他是否登记了多个等待名单，也许他只是选择在田纳西州登记。

It's certainly the case that if you are, say, on multiple organ transplant waiting lists, you will have a higher chance of getting an organ allocated to you. And there's prominent examples of, you know, people getting organs in locations that were not where we might think. So, you know, Steve Jobs got a liver that he needed, a liver transplant, in Tennessee when kind of everybody knew that he lived in in California. Now, you know, I don't know that he was on multiple waiting lists. Maybe he just decided to be listed in Tennessee.

但田纳西州的等待时间比加利福尼亚短得多。数据显示，根据人们如何在这些规则中运作，他们获取稀缺资源的能力确实存在差异。

But Tennessee had much shorter waiting times than California. And so, you know, the data does reveal differences in, you know, people's ability to to get access to, scarce resources based on, you know, how they play in these games.

所以这实际上取决于你有多想要某样东西，以及你愿意付出多少努力去获得它。

So it really depends on how much you want something and how much work you're willing to put into it to to get it.

一个好的隐性市场会奖励那些付出更多努力以获得商品的人，从某种意义上说，这正是我们想要的。我经常思考现场活动门票的例子。比如你想看《汉密尔顿》音乐剧，知道票很难买，而且二手市场上的票价可能非常高。但你可以参加抽奖获取限时抢购票。

A good hidden market will reward effort for a higher chance of getting access to a good. And and in some sense, that's what we want. I think a lot, about this a lot with tickets for live events. So if you wanna go see a show, say you wanna see Hamilton, and, you know that it's very hard to get tickets and and the tickets, that are available might be being resold on a secondary market for very high prices. But there's a lottery that you can enter for rush tickets.

花10美元买张演出票就能参与抽奖，每天都能参加。参与次数越多，中奖几率越高。这很好，这个市场会奖励忠实观众——毕竟那些愿意天天去剧院排队的人，肯定比只愿意去一次的人更想看演出。

$10 if you win, for a ticket to see the show, and you can enter that lottery every day. And the more days that you enter, the the higher your chances of winning. And that's good. That's a market where we are gonna reward dedication because, you know, folks who are willing to go to the theater every day to enter probably wanna see it more than somebody who's only willing to show up one day.

我觉得你会想知道中奖概率再决定是否投入这么多精力。就像强力球彩票，买一万张也未必能中奖，毕竟要花两万美元，而中奖概率微乎其微。

I think you would wanna know what are your odds of winning before you go to all this work. You know, it's like the it's like the Powerball. I mean, you could buy 10,000 tickets. You're still probably not gonna win because, you know, and that's gonna cost you $20,000 because the chances of winning are so small.

正因如此我不建议玩强力球。但这种抽奖不同，确实有人能中奖去看演出——每场演出都会放出一定数量的票。如果你真心想看，参与抽奖就值得一试。

I don't advise playing the Powerball for just that reason. You know, these are situations where there are winners. There are folks who end up going to see the show. They they provide a certain number of tickets to each performance. And so, you know, if it is something that you wanna do, if it is something that you want to see, then it is worth it to to try to enter the lottery.

倒不必天天跑剧院，那可能是铁杆粉丝才会做的，毕竟中奖率可能很低。但这不是不可知的事情，你可以调研感兴趣的活动，了解成功概率后再决定是否值得参与。

Maybe not going to the theater every day. That might be only for the true diehard fans because, you know, the chance of winning might might be low. But this is not something that is unknowable. You can kind of do research and figure out in the situations that you are interested in, you know, winning something, you know, what are what are the odds of success there? And then decide for yourself, you know, is it worth entering?

就像在Magnolia面包店排队买网红纸杯蛋糕时，你可以观察队伍移动速度，判断值不值得花半小时等待。同理你可以观察市场规则，估算参与成本，再决定当下还是改天行动更划算。

You might look at a line around the block for a cupcake that you really want from Magnolia Bakery, and you can kind of see how fast the line is moving and decide, alright, I know it's gonna take thirty minutes for me to to get, this cupcake. Is it worth waiting for? And, you know, make a strategic decision then. And so you can observe the market, figure out its rules, get a sense of of what it's going to cost you to participate and then decide, you know, if it's worth doing and and whether it's worth doing then or some other day.

我在想那些隐形市场是怎么回事。比如热门餐厅预约要等几个月，但汤姆·克鲁斯突然光临，他们总能变出座位。他是怎么做到的？这背后是什么规则？

I wonder about the markets that don't exist, and here's what I mean. I think people think, and maybe it's true and maybe it's not, that for example, you go to a restaurant, a really, really popular restaurant, you can't get in for months. But if Tom Cruise walks in the door and wants to sit down and eat, my guess is they'll find him a table. So how did he get a table? What's that game?

他占用了谁的座位？那个原本订到位子的人现在吃不成了，就因为汤姆·克鲁斯推门而入？

And whose table did he get who's now not eating at that table because Tom Cruise walked in the door?

是啊，这确实很难。我是说，很多市场都存在这样的漏洞，关键不在于你的策略，而在于你的人脉。所以很难给出建议。也许建议就是，成为一个...

Yeah. That's tough. I mean, you know, a lot of markets will have loopholes like that, you know, who you know rather than what strategy you play. So that's harder to provide advice on. You know, maybe the advice is, it's a good idea to become a

著名影星。影星。

Famous movie star. Movie star.

我很想成为影星。但我想对那些不是影星的人说，别因此气馁。在某些市场，比如热门餐厅，名人身份确实有帮助。但也有些市场，比如你朋友的餐厅，每次你都能坐在角落位置，这时你就是那个名人。有些人会试图通过表现得比实际更像个名人来为自己谋利。

I would love to be a movie star. But, you know, I I would urge folks who are not movie stars to not get discouraged about that. It could be that, you know, for that market, the hot restaurant, you know, being the celebrity is helpful. It could be that there are other markets where, you know, it's your friend's restaurant, and so you get the corner table every time, and so you're the celebrity in that case. There there are people, I should say, who, try to bend the rules for for themselves by kind of acting more like celebrities than than they are.

最近有一系列文章报道人们假装自己是私人助理的行为。他们会先尝试订位失败，然后用伪装的声音或邮件再次联系，声称'我是某某的私人助理，他/她非常想来用餐'。结果发现这招很管用，无论是餐厅还是某些现场活动，本为名人预留的位置，只要够有创意就能混进去。

So there was a a spate of articles recently about folks who pretended to be their own personal assistant. So they would, you know, try to make a reservation at a restaurant, not be able to get in, and then they would have, you know, some they would call again, pretending usually with a disguised voice or maybe via email, and say, oh, I my I'm a personal assistant for this person, and they would really like to come to the restaurant. And and they found that that worked, that it often was the case that, a restaurant or, you know, trying to get, access to some, you know, live event that that there were tickets being reserved for celebrities, but you could kind of fake your way into being one, if you were creative.

那些隐藏市场呢？因为有些隐藏市场可能人们不了解，但值得知道。

What about hidden markets? Because they're hidden markets that maybe people don't understand that would be worth knowing.

有很多由你掌控的隐藏市场。你才是决定隐藏市场规则的人。其中重要的是关于你时间和注意力的隐藏市场，因为这是稀缺资源，想获取的人可能远多于你能提供的量，而分配权在你手中。这时你要自问：我是否在用稀缺资源做真正想做的事？是否总在回复那些发最多跟进邮件的人？

There are a lot of hidden markets that you control. You are the one who decides the rules of the hidden market. And one of the important ones is the hidden market for your time and attention, because that is a scarce resource that many more people may be wanting to access than you have available, and you're the one who gets to decide how it is allocated. In that case, you have to decide, alright, am I using my scarce resource in the way that I want? Am I responding to emails from people who kind of email me the most times with the most follow ups?

这可能不是最高效或公平的回应方式。我是否设置了重复会议并每周参加，即使觉得这并非当下时间的最佳用途？当你把自己视为稀缺资源分配者时，可以思考：我现在的资源分配方式是否符合自己的意愿？

That might not be the most efficient or equitable way to to respond. Am I setting recurring meetings and going to them week after week, even if I don't think that that's the kind of best use of my hour, you know, in this week when I have other things to do? And so when you think about yourself as somebody allocating scarce resources, you can kind of think, am I doing what I want to be doing in terms of giving people access to this resource?

听着你谈论隐性市场，我逐渐明白，隐性市场会淘汰那些不愿付出努力或没有真正渴望的人，而奖励那些愿意钻研规则、参与游戏的人。从某种程度上说，这更公平，因为真正渴望并愿意付出的人更可能得到它。我正在与宾夕法尼亚大学沃顿商学院的商业经济学与公共政策教授贾德·凯斯勒交谈，他是《设计幸运：实现愿望所需的隐性经济学》一书的作者。如果你想阅读这本书，节目说明中有亚马逊的购买链接。

Well, as I listen to you talk about hidden markets, you know, it becomes clear that the hidden markets weed out the people who aren't really willing to work that hard or don't really want something and rewards the people who are willing to work the system, play the game. And in some ways, I guess that's more fair because the people who really want it and are willing to do the work are more likely to get it. I've been speaking with Jud Kessler. He's a professor of business economics and public policy at the Wharton School at the University of Pennsylvania, and he's author of the book Lucky by Design, The Hidden Economics You Need to Get More of What You Want. And if you'd like to read it, there's a link to it at Amazon in the show notes.

贾德，感谢你的解释。

Judd, thanks for explaining this.

太棒了，非常感谢。

Awesome. Thank you so much.

大家好，我是亚当·吉特维茨，《黑暗、更暗、最黑暗》的主持人。每期节目中，我们都会讲述一个黑暗的童话故事——不是你们孩子听过无数次的可爱甜美版本，绝对不是。

Hi. I'm Adam Gitwitz, host of Grim, Grimmer, Grimmest. On every episode, we tell a grim fairy tale. Not the cute, sweet versions of the fairy tales that your children have heard so many times. No.

我们讲述真正的黑暗童话。它们有趣、古怪，有时还有点吓人。但别担心。

We tell the real grim fairy tales. They're funny. They're weird. Sometimes they're a little bit scary. But don't worry.

我们会给每集节目评级为黑暗、更暗或最黑暗，这样你、你的孩子和家人可以选择适合你们的恐怖程度。快来收听《黑暗、更暗、最黑暗》，新一季现已上线。嘿，我是《最长最短时光》的希拉里·弗兰克——

We rate every episode grim, grimmer, or grimmest. So you, your child, your family can choose the episode that the right level of scary for you. Tune in to Grim, Grimmer, Grimmest, and our new season available now. Hey, it's Hillary Frank from

《最长最短时光》是一档获奖育儿与生殖健康播客。我们讨论性教育、避孕、怀孕、身体自主权，当然还有各年龄段的孩子。但你不必是父母才能收听。如果你喜欢关于人际关系（以及月经）的惊喜、搞笑又动人的故事，《最长最短时光》正适合你。在任何播客平台或longestshortesttime.com上都能找到我们。

The Longest Shortest Time, an award winning podcast about parenthood and reproductive health. We talk about things like sex ed, birth control, pregnancy, bodily autonomy, and, of course, kids of all ages. But you don't have to be a parent to listen. If you like surprising, funny, poignant stories about human relationships and, you know, periods, the longest shortest time is for you. Find us in any podcast app or @longestshortesttime.com.

我们每天都在交谈，在工作、家庭和网络上。然而即便有如此多的练习和经验，沟通仍是我们面临的最大难题之一。误解不断，对话偏离轨道，真正的连接往往从缝隙中溜走。那么，优秀沟通者与普通人的区别究竟何在？

We talk all day, every day. At work, at home, online. Yet even with all that practice, all that experience, communication is one of the hardest things we do. Misunderstandings are constant, conversations derail, and real connection often slips through the cracks. So what separates great communicators from everyone else?

这正是查尔斯·杜希格试图揭示的。这位普利策奖得主记者、《如何解锁连接密码》的作者，将为我们解密如何成为更高效、更具连接力的沟通者。查尔斯，欢迎回到《你该知道的事》。

Well, that's what Charles Duhigg set out to uncover. He's a Pulitzer Prize winning journalist and author of the book How to Unlock the Secret Language of Connection. And he's here to reveal how anyone can become a more effective and more connected communicator. Hey, Charles. Welcome back to something you should know.

嗨，你好吗？谢谢邀请我参加节目。

Hey, how are you? Thanks for having me on.

确实。我们每天都在进行对话——这通常是我们与他人沟通的方式。但恐怕很少有人会在谈话中停下来思考：这场对话进展如何？我的对话技巧怎么样？

Sure. So we're all having conversations every day. I mean, that's generally the way we communicate with people. And I doubt many of us stop during a conversation and think, how's this conversation going? How are my conversation skills?

然而有些人就是特别擅长交谈。为什么呢？优秀对话者的特质是什么？

Yet some people are really good at conversation. And why is that? What what makes a great conversationalist?

这是个好问题。幸运的是，有研究人员正在探索这些问题：对话如何运作？因为细想之下，沟通能力本质上就是我们的超能力。

Yeah. It it's a great question. And luckily for us, there are researchers who are asking those questions. How do the conversations work? Because if you think about it, our ability to communicate is essentially our superpower.

对吧？智人作为一个物种，我们的成功很大程度上源于比其他物种更出色的沟通能力。但事实证明，沟通比我们想象的更复杂，我们的大脑已进化得特别擅长此事。首先要明白的是：对话存在多种不同类型。

Right? Homo sapiens is a species. The reason why we've succeeded so well is because we can communicate better than any other species. But it turns out that communication is more complicated than we thought it was, and our brains have evolved to be particularly good at it. And the first thing that's really important to understand is that there's many different types of conversations.

当我们与人交谈时，总以为我们明白自己在说什么，对吧？比如讨论看过的电影或下次度假目的地。但实际上，当研究人员观察我们讨论时的大脑活动，会发现我们同时在开展多种对话。这些对话通常可分为三类。

When we're talking to someone, we assume we know what we're talking about. Right? That we're having a discussion about a movie we saw or where to go to on vacation next. But actually, when researchers look inside our brains as we're having a discussion, what they see is that we're having multiple kinds of conversations all at the same time. And in general, these conversations, they tend to fall into one of three buckets.

首先是实用型对话，比如共同制定计划或解决问题。其次是情感型对话，当我向你倾诉感受时，并不需要你解决问题，而是希望获得共情。最后是社会型对话，涉及我们如何相处及与社会的关系。研究发现，沟通障碍往往源于双方同时在进行不同类型的对话。

There's these practical conversations where we're making plans or solving problems together. But then there's also emotional conversations where I tell you what I'm feeling, and I don't want you to solve my feelings. I want you to empathize with me. And then finally, social conversations, which is about how we relate to each other and how we relate to society. And what researchers have found is that when people miscommunicate, it's because they're having different kinds of conversations at the same moment.

要想真正建立连接、真正听懂彼此，我们必须保持对话类型同步。心理学上这被称为匹配原则——成功的沟通需要双方在同一时刻进行同类型的对话。

That in order to really connect with each other, in order to really be able to hear each other, we need to be having the same kind of conversation at the same time. And within psychology, this is actually known as the matching principle that successful communication requires having the same kind of conversation at the same moment.

能举个沟通错位和成功的例子吗？

So give me an example of when that goes wrong and maybe when that goes right.

当然，绝对是这样。我写这本书的原因之一是因为我和妻子陷入了这种不良模式。那时我在《纽约时报》当记者，下班回家后就会开始抱怨我的一天。

Sure. Absolutely. So the one of the reasons I started writing this book is because I fell into this bad pattern with my wife. I would come home from work. I was a reporter at the New York Times at that point, and I'd start complaining about my day.

我会说，你知道，我的老板不赏识我，同事也没意识到我是个天才。而我妻子很理性地给了我一些好建议，她会说类似‘为什么不请你老板吃个午饭，你们可以多了解彼此？’这样的话。但我非但听不进她的话，反而更加恼火，对吧？

And I'd say, you know, my boss doesn't appreciate me, and my coworkers don't realize what a genius I am. And and my wife very reasonably would give me some good advice. She would say something like, why don't you take your boss out to lunch and you guys can get to know each other a little bit better? And instead of being able to hear what she was saying, I would get even more upset. Right?

我会说些‘你为什么不为我愤愤不平？你应该站在我这边’之类的话。她也会生气，因为我竟然因为她给我好建议而攻击她。所以当时的情况是：我在进行情感对话——向她倾诉感受，而她却在用实际对话回应我。

I would I would say things like, why aren't you outraged on my behalf? You know, you should be taking my side. She would get upset because I was attacking her for giving me good advice. So what was happening there was that I was having an emotional conversation. I was telling her how I feel, and she was responding with a practical conversation.

她当时正试图解决问题。这两种对话都是合理的，但因为它们是同时发生的不同对话，我们无法听到彼此。一个成功的例子就是我们现在的做法：当我回家抱怨工作时，我妻子经常会问，你是希望我帮你解决这个问题，还是只需要倾诉发泄一下？而我会说，哦，我只是需要发泄。这其实不是什么大事。

She was trying to solve the problem. And both of those are legitimate conversations, but because they were different conversations at the same moment, we couldn't hear each other. So an example of how that goes well is what we do now, which is when I come home and I'm complaining about my job, my wife will often say, do you want me to help you solve this problem, or or do you just need to vent and get this off your chest? And I'll say, oh, you know, I just need to vent. This isn't that big a deal.

只是我今天过得很糟心。然后等我抱怨一阵子，她表示理解后，最后可能会说，嘿，我们现在能讨论下解决方案吗？换句话说，我们能不能从情绪对话转向实际解决问题的对话？当我们这样做时，效果会非常好。

It's just I had a frustrating day. And and then, you know, after I complained for a little while and she empathizes, eventually she might say, hey. Is it okay if we talk about some solutions? Like, in in other words, could we move from an emotional conversation to a practical conversation together? And when we do that, things work fantastically.

这方法太棒了，而且看起来如此显而易见。但众所周知，男性总被认为喜欢解决问题。当有人向我们倾诉时，我们的第一反应总是试图解决它，即使对方并不一定在寻求解决方案。

Well, that's brilliant and seemingly so obvious. And yet, well, and men have the reputation of always wanting to solve something. And when someone tells us something that our our go to response is to try to solve it even when the other person isn't necessarily looking for a solution.

没错，完全正确。因为我们很多人从小在实用型对话环境中长大，这已成为习惯。特别是在棘手情况下，当事情似乎比闲聊更严肃时，我们就会不自觉地回归到实用对话模式。

Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. Because oftentimes for for some of us who were raised where practical conversations were the easiest kinds of conversations to have, that's our habit. We fall back into a practical conversation, particularly in a sort of sticky situation, a situation where where it seems like the stakes are a little bit higher than just sort of, you know, shooting the breeze with someone.

我们会依赖熟悉的方式。但这并不意味着我们无法改变，也不代表男性比女性更少进行情感交流。研究表明每个人都有情感对话。只是男性在某些特定环境中学会了实用型沟通方式，导致我们在讨论情感话题时也倾向于这种方式。

We fall back on what feels familiar. Now that doesn't mean that we can't change. And it also doesn't mean that men have fewer emotional conversations than women. What we know from research is that everyone has emotional conversations. But again, because sometimes men and sometimes in certain settings that we learn to communicate in a practical way, we tend to fall back on that even when we're discussing emotional topics.

那么对话中还发生了什么？可能类似这种情况但更隐蔽，因为人们不会用你刚才描述的方式思考。他们只觉得我们在聊天。但其实暗流涌动。我还可能忽略了哪些细节？

So what else is going on in the conversation? Maybe similar to that, but kind of under the radar because people don't think in the way you just described it. They just think we're having a conversation. But but there's a lot going on. And what else is going on that I may have missed?

我认为关键点在于——这些都是成为更好沟通者的技巧。首先要注意正在进行的对话类型，并配合他人或邀请他们配合你。其次，善于观察对话的人会发现，经常有人提问时，他们不是在随便发问，而是在提出一种被称为深度问题的特殊提问。

Well, I think one of the things is so it you know, and these are the tips for how to become a better conversationalist, how to have more successful conversations. The first is to just pay a little bit of attention to what kind of conversation is occurring and to match others or invite them to match you. So that's number one. But number two is that people who pay attention to conversations, one of the things that they'll notice is that oftentimes there's someone who's asking questions, but they're not asking any question. They're asking a special kind of question that's known as a deep question.

所谓深刻的问题，是指那些触及我的价值观、信仰或经历的问题。听起来可能有点吓人，但其实很简单——比如遇到一位医生时，与其问'你在哪家医院工作？'，不如问'你从小就想当医生吗？这是你儿时的梦想吗？'这类后续问题其实很容易提出。

And a deep question is something that asks me about my values or my beliefs or my experiences. And that can sound a little bit intimidating, but it's as simple as if you meet someone who's a doctor instead of asking them, oh, you know, what hospital do you work at? You can ask them, oh, did you always wanna be a doctor? Like, was that your dream as a kid? That second question is pretty easy to ask.

但这类问题的本质在于其深刻性。它邀请对方分享他们的价值观、人生经历和真正在意的事物。我们知道，高质量对话的关键就在于彼此提出深刻问题，因为这类问题能引导对方说出真实而有意义的内容。事实上，这形成了人际交往的第二个维度：当你养成提出深刻问题的习惯后，会发现人们更愿意与你交谈、更喜欢你、也更容易被你说服。深刻问题真的非常重要。

But what it is is it's a deep question. It invites someone to talk about their values, their experiences, the things that matter to them. And one of the things that we know is that in a great conversation, people are asking each other deep questions because a deep question is an invitation to say something real and meaningful. And this is actually the second scale for people is that if you make asking deep questions into a habit, what you'll find is that other people want to talk to you more, that they like you more, that they're more persuaded by you. Deep questions are really, really important.

换个角度思考：与其问别人'你对生活有什么看法'，不如问'你对生活有什么感受'。

And one way to think about them is instead of asking people what they think about their life, ask them how they feel about their life.

这个观点很棒。能再举些深刻问题的例子吗？

Oh, I like that. Well, give me some more examples of deep questions.

其实很简单。比如我问别人'你住在哪个区？'对方说'我住在高地区'，这时就可以追问'你喜欢高地区什么？当初为什么决定搬去那里？'明白吗？

You know, it's as simple as if I ask someone, oh, what part of town do you live in? Oh, I live in The Heights. Oh, then a follow-up to you question is, oh, what do you like about The Heights? Why did you decide to move up there? Right?

又比如我和你聊天时说：'迈克，我超爱你的播客节目，内容非常有趣。我很好奇，做播客过程中你最喜欢的部分是什么？毕竟这看起来要花费很多时间，你一定是乐在其中。'

Or or if I'm talking to you. Oh, Mike, I love your your podcast. It's a really interesting podcast. I'm just wondering, like, what's your favorite part of doing the podcast? Because it seems like it takes up a lot of time, so you must really enjoy it.

看到了吗？这些都是深刻问题。这类问题能引导对方分享真实感受——他们对居住地的情感、对工作的热爱。甚至简单到发现对方和你在同城不同高中时，都可以说'哦，你上的是山谷高中啊'来展开话题。

Right? Those are deep questions. Those are questions that invite the other person to tell me how they feel about something, how they feel about where they live, how they feel about the work that they do. It's even as simple as, like, if you find out someone went to a different high school than you in the same town. You can say to them, oh, you went to Valley High.

那是什么感觉？比如，你觉得去山谷是否在某种程度上改变了你是谁？

What was that like? Like, do do you feel like going to Valley, like, kinda changed who you are?

这会导致什么结果呢？

And what does that lead to?

这导致的就是所谓的神经同步现象。关于对话，我们知道的一点是，当你们进行良好对话时，身体和大脑都会开始变化。所以即使在这场对话中，尽管我们相隔数英里通过网络交谈，在不知不觉间，我们的呼吸模式和心率已经开始同步。如果能测量你我瞳孔的扩张程度，我会发现它们正以相同的节奏扩张。更重要的是，如果能观察你我大脑内部，会发现我们的思维正变得越来越相似——在思维图谱上，我们的波峰波谷开始同步出现。

Well, what that leads to is it leads to what's known as neural entrainment. One of the things that we know about a conversation is that when you're in a good conversation, your body and your brain starts to change. So even during this conversation, even though we're separated by by many miles and talking over the Internet, without us realizing it, our breath patterns and our heart rates have started to match each other. If I could measure the dilation of the pupils of your eyes and my eyes, what I'd see is that they're starting to dilate in symphony with each other. And even more importantly, if I was able to look inside your brain and my brain, what I would see is I would see that our thoughts are becoming more and more similar, that literally on a graph of how we think, that the peaks and valleys are starting to occur at the same time.

细想之下这很合理：当我讲述自己的悲伤经历时，你也会感受到些许悲伤；当我分享新想法时，你也会体会到那份兴奋。所以大脑开始协调运作、趋于同步是合乎逻辑的。但研究者发现，这正是对话的目标，在神经科学中被称为神经同步。

And that kind of makes sense when you think about it because if I tell you about something sad that happened to me, you actually feel that sadness a little bit. If I tell you about a new idea, you feel the excitement of that new idea. So it makes sense that our brains would begin to coordinate, to begin to look similar. But what researchers have found is that when we're in a conversation, this is the goal of a conversation. And within neuroscience, it's known as neural entrainment.

关键在于要明白：对话的目标正是这种同步。优质对话后之所以感觉愉悦，是因为大脑会释放多巴胺等奖励物质，鼓励你进行更多此类对话。当我提出深刻问题而你给予有意义的回应时——尤其当我同样敞开心扉分享自己时——我们就在促进这种神经同步，从而增进好感与信任。

And what's important to understand is that the goal of having a conversation is this entrainment. The reason you feel so good after a good conversation is because your brain is literally releasing dopamine and other reward sensations to encourage you to have more conversations like that. And so when I ask you a deep question and you tell me something meaningful, and particularly if I respond in kind and I tell you a little bit about myself, we encourage that neural entrainment. We start to like each other more. We start to trust each other more.

即使存在分歧，我们仍能感受到彼此的联系。而这正是对话的目的——建立这种联结感。

Even if we disagree with each other, we feel connected to one another. And that's the goal of a conversation is to feel that sense of connection.

但你是否遇到过这种情况：还没开始正式对话，对方就抛出那些深入的问题，让人感觉被冒犯？就像...不，你...

Have you ever been in a conversation, though, or it's not even a conversation yet, you're talking to someone and they ask you one of those deep questions, and it feels very intrusive. Like, no. You you

哦，是的。

Oh, yeah.

你现在还没资格问这个。

You don't get to ask that yet.

对，不行。我认为邀请某人告诉我们某事的问题与强制要求他们告诉我们某事的问题之间存在非常重要的区别。比如，如果我问你，你和父亲的关系如何？这其实是一种强制。

Right. No. And I think there's a real important difference between a question that invites someone to tell us something and a question that mandates that they tell us something. So for instance, if I was to ask you, like, oh, you know, what was your relationship with your dad like? Well, that's kind of a mandate.

对吧？就像，我基本上是在说，我期待你说些真实、有意义且深刻的东西。但如果我问的是，你在阿尔伯克基长大开心吗？那是个适合成长的地方吗？你和父母关系亲近吗？

Right? Like like, I'm I'm basically saying, like, I expect you to say something real and meaningful and deep. But if I ask something like, oh, just you know, did you enjoy growing up in Albuquerque? Was that a good place to grow up? Are you close to your parents?

这就是一种邀请。这让你可以说，哦，是的，让我给你讲讲阿尔伯克基。或者你也可以说，是的，我们非常亲近。

Like, that's an invitation. That's that allows you to say, oh, yeah. Let me tell you about Albuquerque. Or it allows you to say, yeah. We're really close.

明白吗？我很喜欢这种方式。所以在设计这些问题时，重要的是要以邀请而非命令的方式提出。

You know? It I like them a lot. And so it's important when we create these questions to pose them as invitations rather than mandates.

嗯，这很有趣，因为听你这么说，当然，包含深刻问题的对话会比没有更有趣、更有成效。但我们往往不会倾向于这样做，我们倾向于停留在关于天气之类的浅层问题上，这不会让你走得太远。

Well, it's interesting because to hear you talk about it, of course, a conversation with deep questions in it is going to be more interesting and productive than not. And yet we tend not to gravitate to that. We tend to stick with the shallow questions about the weather and whatnot and and and which doesn't get you very far.

要知道，没人真正喜欢肤浅的问题。没人喜欢在派对上被人问：'哦，你在哪工作？''你认识我朋友吉姆吗？''你开什么车？'这些话题一点意思都没有。

You know, nobody really likes shallow questions. Nobody really likes being at a party and having someone ask them, you know, oh, where do you work? Oh, do you know my friend Jim? Oh, you know, what kind of car do you drive? That's not fun.

但当有人提出一个真正深刻的问题时，比如'你在微软工作啊？那里氛围怎么样？工作环境酷吗？'——这种时刻对话就会变得非常自然，对我来说继续交谈反而容易得多。

But when someone asks a real question, a deep question, they say, oh, oh, you work at Microsoft. Like, what's that like? Is it is it a cool place to work? That at that moment, it's very, very easy. In fact, much easier for me to continue the conversation.

这并不意味着我必须说'我要告诉你我的人生故事'或'我正在和上司闹矛盾'。而是可以聊聊我对微软的真实感受，喜欢什么、不喜欢什么。这样你也能分享对自己工作的看法。

Now that doesn't mean that I have to say, like, oh, you know, I'm gonna tell you my whole life story or how I'm fighting with my boss right now. No. But it means that I can tell you how I feel about Microsoft. What I like about it, what I don't like about it. And at that point, you can tell me what you like and you don't like about your job.

我们会发现彼此意想不到的共同点，正是这些共鸣让对话变得生动流畅。

And what we're gonna find is that we have things in common, things that we would not have guessed otherwise. And it's those commonalities that make a conversation robust and easy.

查尔斯，我突然想到——如果让两个都听过你建议或读过你书的人对话，他们都热衷于追问深刻问题，这样互相盘问会不会让人精疲力尽？

So, Charles, you know, it just occurred to me, if you get two people together to have a conversation and both of them have heard your advice or read your book or, you know, and and are really into asking deep questions, and they're asking each other all these deep questions. It seems like that could get exhausting.

不，完全不会。让我反问你：在这场对话中你一直在问我深刻问题——

No. No. Not at all. I mean, well, let me ask you. You've been asking me a bunch of deep questions during this this discussion.

你觉得累吗？

Do you feel exhausted?

不。但我不认为我一直在以你描述的方式提出深刻的问题。是吗？

No. But I I don't think I've been asking deep questions in the way you described it. Am I?

但确实。是的，你就是在问。对吧？你在问我，比如，这些东西是怎么运作的？

But yeah. Yeah. You are. Right? You're asking me, like, you know, how does this stuff work?

你怎么看？为什么这对你来说很重要？这些都是深刻的问题。事实上，我们知道提出深刻的问题反而更不费力。真正让人疲惫的是在对话无聊时还要勉强维持。

What do you make of it? Why does this seem important to you? Those are deep questions. In fact, what we know is that asking deep questions is less exhausting. What's exhausting is trying to keep a conversation going when it's just boring.

对吧？就像，好吧，我已经和你聊过体育，聊过电影。我还能和你聊些什么呢？

Right? When it's like, okay, I've already talked to you about sports, and I've talked to you about movies. What else can I possibly talk to you about?

这引出了一个重要问题。就像你刚才说的，每个人都讨厌那种问题。那些'你好吗？''有什么新鲜事？''你开什么车？'之类的问题。

That brings up an important question. As you said a few moments ago, everybody hates those kinds of questions. Those how are you? What's new? What kind of car do you drive?

但我们都在这么做。所以它肯定有某种作用，因为如果每个人都一致、普遍地讨厌它，为什么我们不干脆停止这样做呢？

But we all do it. So it must serve a purpose because if everybody uniformly, universally hates it, why don't we all just stop doing it?

我不确定它是否有用。我是说，我就不这么做。你可以从一个表面问题开始。比如我们刚接通时，你问我现在在哪里。对吧？

I'm not sure that it serves a purpose. I mean, I don't do it. Like like, you can start with a with a surface question. When we first got on the line, you asked me where I am today. Right?

我告诉过你我是从加州圣克鲁斯打来的。你说，哦，你在南加州啊。但如果是闲聊，我就会问，比如，你喜欢那里的什么？你是真的享受那里，还是有点想搬到大城市去？对吧？

And told you I'm I'm calling in from Santa Cruz, California. And you said, oh, you're down in Southern California. But from there, if we were just chatting, I would say, like, oh, what what do you like about living down there? Like, is do you enjoy it, or or do you sort of wish that you could move to a big city? Right?

这是个很容易问的问题。所以我们经常用浅显的问题开场，因为这能让对话简单开始。但我其实很少进行肤浅的对话或问肤浅的问题，因为几乎不可避免地，我第二三个问题就会变成：'这个很有意思，你为什么喜欢这个？你怎么看？'

That's a pretty easy thing to ask. So oftentimes, we can ask a shallow question as the first question because it's just it's a just a simple way to start the conversation. But I don't really have many shallow conversations or ask many shallow shallow questions because almost inevitably, the second or third question I ask is, oh, like, that's interesting. What do you like about that? Or what do you make of that?

正是这些让对话变得有趣而真实。当对话有趣真实时，它不会让人疲惫，反而让人精神焕发。

That's what makes the conversation interesting and real. And when a conversation is interesting and real, it's not exhausting. It's actually very rejuvenating.

这就是为什么人们会说：'我爱和查尔斯聊天，他太有趣了。'因为你问的问题让我觉得自己很聪明，你本质上是在询问我的想法。

And that's what happens when people say, oh, I love talking to Charles. He's so interesting. It's because you're asking me things that make me feel smart because you asked me my basically for my thoughts.

完全正确。部分原因是我在问真实的问题，这很有趣。每个人都喜欢被问真实的问题。但另一方面，我自己也在回答这些问题。比如'你喜欢南加州是因为这个原因吗？'

That's exactly right. So part of it is that I'm asking you real questions, which are interesting. Everyone likes being asked real questions. But the other part of it is that I'm also answering some of those questions myself. Oh, you like living in Southern California because of this reason?

'那我来说说为什么我喜欢北加州。'对吧？对话是双向的，是给予和接受，是一场对话。

Here's why I like living in Northern California. Right? A a conversation is a back and forth. It's a give and take. It's a it's a dialogue.

所以当一场对话真正精彩时，不是因为一个人显得很聪明或问了好问题，而是因为双方都在互相分享。有趣的是，如果你回忆人生中最棒的对话，那些记忆中突出的对话，我敢说它们的文字记录看起来肯定一团糟。最好的对话里，我们不会用完整段落说话，而是开启想法后又被其他想法分散，我会突然插入问题，你会抢着接话。

And so when a conversation is really good, it's not because one person sounds really smart or one person is asking great questions. It's because both people are sharing with each other. And what's interesting is if you think about the best conversations that you've ever had in your life, the the ones that kinda stand out in your memory, if I was to look at a transcript of that conversation, I guarantee you, it would look like a mess. In the best conversations, we are not speaking in complete paragraphs. We are starting ideas, and then we're getting distracted by other ideas, and then I'm inter interjecting with questions, and then you're talking on you're speaking on top of me.

那些精彩的探索性对话往往如此。它们看起来一团糟。但当你身处其中时，却能感受到与他人的紧密连接。正因如此，这才是场绝妙的对话。

Those are what great quest conversations look like. They look like a mess. But in the moment that you're having them, you feel connected to the other person. And so it's a great conversation.

你知道吗，这很有趣。就在你说这话时，我其实想不起什么精彩的对话内容。比起具体的对话，那些与我交谈过的出色对话者反而更快浮现在脑海。我甚至不记得我们聊过什么，只记得当时在想：我真的很喜欢和这个人交谈。

You know, it's interesting. As as you said that, I can't really think of great conversations. Well, conversations don't come to mind as quickly as great conversationalists I have spoken to. I don't even remember what we talked about. I just remember thinking, I really like talking to this person.

他们或许让我觉得自己很聪明，或者让我感受到他们对我感兴趣。我不记得对话的具体内容，只记得那个人。

They may they make me feel smart, or they they they're they're interested in me. I don't remember the content of the conversation. I just remember the person.

完全正确。我们知道人们往往不会记住谈话内容，而是记住讨论时的感受。这其中蕴含着宝贵的东西——当然这并不意味着谈话内容毫无意义。

That's exactly right. And this is what we know is that people don't tend to remember what you talk about. They tend to remember how they felt during that discussion. And and there's something valuable there. Now that doesn't mean that what you talk about is meaningless.

对吧？你可能记不清与某位谈话高手的详细讨论，但会大致记得主题。在你脑海深处，可能已经吸收了一些源自那次对话的想法，甚至不再认为它们与当初的对话有关。但正因为你记得那次对话，记得这种积极的联想，这些想法才更容易被记住并深入脑海。

Right? You you might have trouble remind remembering exactly what you discussed with with some great conversationalist. But you kinda remember generally the themes. And in the back of your head, there's probably some ideas that you've embraced that came out of that conversation that you don't even think of as being related to that conversation anymore. But because you remember having the conversation, because you remember having this positive association with that discussion, it makes those ideas easier to remember and to penetrate into your brain.

但你说得很对。能让人们从普通对话中脱颖而出的，不仅在于双方都在谈论有趣的事情，更在于他们在当下都感觉良好。这通常源于双方的契合——他们在进行同频的对话，彼此分享。

But you're exactly right. The the thing that usually sets people apart from having a great conversation is not only that they're both saying interesting things, it's that they both feel good in the moment. And that's often because they're aligned. They're having the same kind of conversation at the same time. They're sharing things with each other.

他们会提出深刻的问题，敢于展现脆弱。虽然人们常常误解'脆弱'这个词的含义，但它是促成优质对话的重要元素。

They're asking deep questions. They're achieving vulnerability. And some and oftentimes people misunderstand what that word means, vulnerability, but it's an important component of how we have a good conversation.

让我们来谈谈艰难对话，因为这是个普遍困扰大家的话题。之所以困扰，是因为我们都不得不面对那些自己宁愿回避的艰难对话。那么该如何应对呢？

Let's talk about difficult conversations because that's a that's a topic that I think everybody struggles with, and everybody struggles with it because we're all gonna have those difficult conversations that you'd really rather not have. And how do you do that?

在艰难对话中，我们首先可以承认这是个艰难对话，并表明自己的目标，同时询问对方的目标。比如：'今天我想和你谈谈加薪的事，我知道这个话题会让人不自在，但我认为自己在公司工作三年确实值得加薪。不过在开始前，我想先了解——对你而言这次谈话最重要的是什么？'

And so in difficult conversations, one of the things that we can do at the outset is we can acknowledge that this is a difficult conversation, and we can say what our goal is and ask the other person what their goal is. I wanna talk to you today, and I know this is gonna be kind of an uncomfortable conversation, but I wanna ask you for a raise. And the reason why is because I've been working here for three years and I think I really deserve it. But before I start, let me ask you. What what's important to you in this conversation?

你希望从中获得什么？当我们这样做时，双方都在阐明各自目标，这会让对话变得轻松许多。其次，我们可以通过提问向对方证明我们在认真倾听。

What are you hoping hoping to get out of it? Right? When we do that, we're both explaining what our goals are. That makes the conversation much, much easier. But then the second thing that we can do that's really, really valuable is we can ask the other person we can prove to the other person that we're listening to them.

这里有个具体技巧。人们常以为倾听就是竖起耳朵闭上嘴，但研究表明这只是第一步。在艰难对话中尤为重要的是，我要证明给你看我在倾听，因为你心里总怀疑我只是在等待发言机会。

And there's actually a technique for this. We tend to think of listening as something where you open your ears and you close your mouth. But actually what studies show is that that's the first step of listening, but that's not the entirety of listening. What's really important, particularly in a difficult conversation, is that I prove to you that I'm listening to you because there's always a suspicion in the back of your head that I'm not listening to you. I'm just waiting my turn to speak.

证明倾听的技巧叫'理解循环法'，包含三个步骤：1）提出深刻问题；2）用自己的话复述听到的内容——不是鹦鹉学舌，而是证明我在专注思考；

And the technique for proving that I'm listening to you is known as looping for understanding. It has three steps. Step one is I ask you a question, preferably a deep question. Step two is that I ask you is that I repeat back what I heard you say in my own words. So I I don't mimic what you've said, but I rather try and prove to you that I was paying attention, that I'm thinking about it.

'我听到你说的是...这让我想起你上周提到的...' 3）复述后立即确认：'我理解得对吗？有没有遗漏？' 这实际上是在请求你认可我的倾听。

What I heard you say is this, and it reminds me of something you said last week. And step three is once I've repeated back what I heard you say, once I proved to you that I was listening, at that moment, I wanna ask you if I got it right. I wanna say something like, you know, did did I hear you correctly? Am I am I getting this completely? Because at that moment, what I'm actually doing is I'm asking you for permission to acknowledge that I was listening.

当你认可了我的倾听，你也会更愿意倾听我的观点。这就是让艰难对话变轻松的两个关键步骤。

And if you acknowledge that I was listening, you become much more likely to listen to me in return. And so those are the two most important steps we can take during a hard conversation to make it easier.

这些建议非常棒，因为我们都会在对话中遇到困难，或者把大量时间花在无关紧要的谈话上，而这些建议能帮助我们避免这种情况。我一直在与普利策奖得主、记者查尔斯·杜希格交流，他是《如何解锁连接的神秘语言》一书的作者。节目说明中有他著作的链接。谢谢你，查尔斯。

Well, is some great advice because I think we all struggle at times with conversation, or I think we spend a lot of time having conversations that don't really matter much, and this is a way to not do that. I've been talking with Charles Duhigg. He's a Pulitzer Prize winning journalist and author of the book How to Unlock the Secret Language of Connection. And there's a link to his book in the show notes. Thanks, Charles.

非常感谢您的邀请，我真心非常感激。

Thank you so much for having me. I really, really appreciate it.

你今天笑了吗？如果没有，不妨把这件事放在待办清单的首位。笑声确实是良药——它能减轻压力、增强免疫力，甚至帮助减肥。笑声会改变你的身体化学反应。

Have you laughed today? If not, you might want to put that on the top of your to do list. Laughter truly is good medicine. It decreases stress, it boosts immunity, and can even help you lose weight. Laughter changes your body chemistry.

开怀大笑实际上能通过降低皮质醇水平来燃烧腹部脂肪。甚至只要预期或想到要笑，这个过程就会开始。那么通过笑声能减掉多少体重呢？如果你保持规律的笑声生活，每年大约能减掉四磅——这需要每天总共笑十五分钟左右。

A good old fashioned belly laugh actually burns belly fat by lowering your cortisol levels. And even just anticipating or thinking about laughing starts that process. So how much weight could you potentially laugh off? Well, about four pounds a year if you've got a healthy laugh life. You'll need to laugh for about a total of fifteen minutes a day.

不需要一次性笑完，每一次轻笑都算数。这是你应该知道的事。顺便提醒大家，《你应该知道的事》已有数百期节目，即使你是老听众也不可能全部听过。

It doesn't have to be all at once. Every chuckle counts. And that is something you should know. You know, I like to remind people there are hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of episodes of Something You Should Know. And even if you're a regular listener, you can't have heard them all.

我邀请你在收听设备上向下滑动，所有节目都在那里。找些没听过的节目畅享一下吧。我是迈克·卡鲁瑟斯，感谢今天收听《你应该知道的事》。

So I invite you to scroll down on whatever device you're listening on. All the episodes are right there. Find some episodes you haven't heard and binge a little and enjoy. I'm Mike Carruthers. Thanks for listening today to Something You Should Know.

大家好，我是《最长最短时间》的希拉里·弗兰克。这个获奖播客讲述育儿与生殖健康的方方面面。当前生殖健康领域正发生着诸多变革——避孕、怀孕、性别、身体自主权、更年期、知情同意、精子（我们有很多关于精子的故事），当然还有养育各年龄段孩子时的欢乐与荒诞。

Hey, it's Hillary Frank from The Longest Shortest Time, an award winning podcast about parenthood and reproductive health. There is so much going on right now in the world of reproductive health, and we're covering it all. Birth control, pregnancy, gender, bodily autonomy, menopause, consent, sperm. So many stories about sperm. And, of course, the joys and absurdities of raising kids of all ages.

如果你是第一次收听这个节目，不妨看看《楼梯间》这一集。这是我个人的故事，讲述了我如何努力让孩子们的学校开展性教育课程。剧透一下，我成功了，但完全不是以我想要的方式。我们也采访了许多非父母身份的听众，所以你不必是家长也能收听。如果你喜欢关于人际关系和月经那些出人意料、有趣又辛酸的故事，《最长最短时间》正适合你。

If you're new to the show, check out an episode called The Staircase. It's a personal story of mine about trying to get my kids' school to teach sex ed. Spoiler, I get it to happen, but not at all in the way that I wanted. We also talk to plenty of non parents, so you don't have to be a parent to listen. If you like surprising, funny, poignant stories about human relationships and, you know, periods, the longest shortest time is for you.

你可以在任何播客平台或longestshortesttime.com上找到我们。

Find us in any podcast app or at longestshortesttime.com.