返场 - 科学如何助你改善行为习惯，与Katy Milkman博士一起探讨

说到心理学节目正在放暑假，所以我们重播了一些过去最受欢迎的剧集。2021年，我曾与宾夕法尼亚大学沃顿商学院的行为科学家凯蒂·米尔克曼交谈，探讨如何识别并克服阻碍你实现生活中想要改变的障碍。希望你喜欢这期档案节目。下周我们将带着新节目回归。改变是困难的。

Speaking of psychology is taking a summer break, so we're rerunning some of our favorite episodes from the past. In 2021, I talked to Katie Milkman, a behavioral scientist at the Wharton School of the University of Pennsylvania, about how to identify and overcome roadblocks that are getting in the way of making the changes you want to see in your life. I hope you enjoy this episode from the archives. We'll be back with a new episode next week. Change is hard.

当你想在生活中做出改变时，无论是吃更健康的食物、开始锻炼计划还是存更多钱，都有许多人性弱点可能阻碍你。冲动、懒惰、拖延或单纯的健忘都是其中一些因素。图书馆里充斥着提供多步骤计划和其他策略来激励新生的书籍。但通常，这些计划都未能奏效。我们最好的意图不足以克服挡在路上的人性障碍。

When you want to make a change in your life, whether it's eating healthier food, starting an exercise program or saving more money, there are many human foibles that can stand in your way. Impulsivity, laziness, procrastination or just plain forgetfulness forgetfulness are among them. Libraries are full of books offering multi step plans and other tactics to inspire a new you. Often though, these plans fall flat. Our best intentions aren't enough to overcome the roadblocks of human nature that stand in our way.

但近年来，心理学家开始从不同角度审视行为改变。这项研究表明，我们不应与人性的弱点对抗，而应分析它，然后利用它为我们服务，而不是与我们作对。这意味着什么？我们能从行为改变科学中学到什么，以帮助我们实现生活中想要的改变？组织、公司和政府如何利用这些见解推动整个人群做出更好的选择？

But in recent years, psychologists have begun to look at behavior change from a different angle. Instead of fighting human nature, this research suggests that we should analyze it and then leverage it to work for us rather than against us. What does that mean? What can we learn from the science of behavior change that can help us make the alterations we want to see in our lives? And how can organizations, companies and governments use these insights to nudge whole populations into making better choices?

欢迎来到《说到心理学》，这是美国心理学会的旗舰播客，探讨心理科学与日常生活之间的联系。我是金·米尔斯。今天的嘉宾是凯蒂·米尔克曼博士，宾夕法尼亚大学沃顿商学院教授，著有《如何改变：从现状到理想的科学》一书。她的研究探索如何利用心理学和经济学的见解，在个人和全球范围内改善人们的行为。

Welcome to Speaking of Psychology, the flagship podcast of the American Psychological Association that examines the links between psychological science and everyday life. I'm Kim Mills. Our guest today is Doctor. Katie Milkman, a professor at Wharton School of the University of Pennsylvania, and author of the book How to The Science of Getting from Where You Are to Where You Want to Be. Her research explores how insights from psychology and economics can be harnessed to change people's behavior for the better, on both an individual and a global scale.

她研究了相对简单的干预措施如何帮助人们增加储蓄、多锻炼甚至接种疫苗等。她是沃顿商学院“为善行为改变”倡议的联合主任。她还主持嘉信理财的播客《选择学》，探讨决策科学。米尔克曼博士，感谢您今天加入我们。

She has explored how relatively simple interventions can help people increase their savings, exercise more, and even get vaccinated, among other things. She is co director of the Behavior Change for Good initiative at Wharton. She also hosts the Charles Schwab podcast, Choiceology, about the science of decision making. Doctor. Milpin, thank you for joining us today.

非常感谢您的邀请。

Thank you so much for having me.

正如我所说，您的书名为《如何改变》，但在第一章中，您从一个略有不同的前提开始，即“何时改变”。您指出，我们生活中的某些时刻特别有利于做出改变。您的研究发现了什么？如果你想在生活中做出改变，应该选择什么时候尝试？

So as I said, your book is entitled How to Change, but in the first chapter, start with a slightly different premise, which is when to change. You make the point that there are some moments in our lives that are particularly conducive to making change. What has your research found? And if you wanna make a change in your life, when should you try to do it?

我很喜欢你以这个问题开场，因为这是我最喜欢的研究主题之一。实际上，正是像你提出的这样的问题让我开始了这个研究方向。当时我正在谷歌公司访问，展示我关于助推和选择架构的研究成果，这些策略可以帮助人力资源经理协助员工做出更好的决策，投资新技能培训、健康计划等等。有人问我：是否存在鼓励员工改变的理想时机？我意识到，学术文献中几乎没有任何内容能帮助我回答这个绝佳的问题。

I love that you opened with this question because it's one of my favorite topics that I've studied. And actually, it was a question just like the one you asked that that started me on this course. I was visiting Google presenting some of my work on nudges and choice architecture and strategies that could be used by HR managers to help their employees make better decisions and, you know, invest in new skills training, wellness programming, etcetera. And I was asked, is there some ideal time to encourage employees to change? And I realized actually there was very little I knew from the academic literature that would help me answer that great question.

于是我回到宾夕法尼亚大学的研究团队，找到我从前的学生戴恒辰（现为加州大学洛杉矶分校安德森学院教授），以及行为科学机构Behavioralize负责人、沃顿商学院高级研究员杰森·里斯。我们都对行为改变非常感兴趣。我们开始探讨这个问题，并立即对何时适合改变产生了强烈的直觉。我们首先想到的是，众所周知人们在新年期间会制定更多决心和目标，对吧？

So I went back to my research team at the University of Pennsylvania, my former student, Heng Chen Dai, who's now a professor at UCLA's Anderson School, and also Jason Rees, who's the head of Behavioralize and a Wharton senior fellow. We were all really interested in behavior change. We started talking about this question and had really strong intuitions right away about when it might make sense to change. The first thing that came to mind for all of us was that we know people make more resolutions and set more goals around New Year's. Right?

这一点已经是公认的事实，我们并非提出了什么全新观点。但我们感兴趣的是：这个时刻是否隐藏着某种特质，能提示我们生命中其他更愿意接受改变的时机。于是我们开始研读关于自传体记忆和时间认知的文献。我们发现，生活中有些时刻会让人感觉像是新的开始。

So that was that was well established. We weren't coming up with something wildly new there. But what we got interested in is, whether there was something about that moment that might give us a hint as to other moments in our lives when we might be more open to change. And we started reading literature on autobiographical memory, the way people think about time. What we learned is that there are moments in our lives that feel like new beginnings.

这是因为我们在记忆中组织时间的方式，仿佛人生是由一系列章节组成的，每个章节都有开端、发展和结局。我们就像书中的角色般看待自己，而不是纯粹线性地理解时间。因此，任何感觉像是转折点的时刻——无论出于何种原因开启新篇章——都会让我们觉得是新的开始。新年之际（我们在其他时刻也发现类似现象），我们会觉得：既然翻过了旧篇章，就可以说'那是去年的我，没能成功戒烟或参加技能培训研讨会'，而'新的一年，全新的我，已经不同了，一定能做到'。

And that's because the way we organize time in our memory is as if our life is a series of chapters and they have sort of beginnings, middles, and ends. That's how we think about ourselves like characters in a book instead of thinking about time really truly linearly. And as a result of that, any moment that feels like a breakpoint can feel like a new beginning to us anytime we're opening a new chapter for any reason. And what happens at New Year's and what we found happens at some other moments as well is we feel like, you know, because we're closing a chapter, we can say that was the old me who didn't manage to quit smoking last year or didn't manage to go to that skills training workshop. And the new me in the new year, you know, I'm different, and I can do it.

因此我们会感到更加乐观。研究发现，其他系统性地让人感觉像是新起点的时刻（包括新一周/新一月的开始、生日庆祝、以及象征新开始的节日——更像是劳动节而非情人节）同样会带来这种乐观情绪和目标追求倾向。数据显示，在这些时间点，人们更可能去健身房锻炼，在热门目标设定网站上制定计划。当我们询问'是否愿意接收目标提醒'或'希望何时开始储蓄'时——

So we feel more optimistic. And we've found in our research that other moments that systematically feel like new beginnings to us and lead to a similar optimism and tendency to pursue goals include dates like just the start of a new week, the start of a new month, the celebration of a birthday, the celebration of certain holidays that we associate with new beginnings. So think more Labor Day and less Valentine's Day. And we've we've shown in our research that people are more likely to do things like visit the gym at these moments, that they're more likely to set goals on a popular goal setting website around these these dates that feel like new beginnings. And also if we reach out and say, would you like to receive reminders to begin pursuing a goal?

如果我们只是给日期标注不同的名称：当标注为普通日子（无特殊标签）时，其吸引力远不如被赋予'新开始'意义的日期。

Or when would you like to start saving? For instance, and we simply label dates differently. If we label a date as an ordinary day, right? No special label. It's not nearly as attractive as if we give it a label that makes it feel like a new beginning.

例如在一项研究中，我们在一组将3月20日标注为'春季第一天'，另一组则只标注为'三月第三个星期四'。当被标注为春季第一天时，该日期作为开始追求目标的时机吸引力出现显著提升。因此我们既通过相关性分析发现人们会自然利用这些时机决定改变时点，也能通过实验证明：当我们给特定日期添加'新起点'标签时，就能观察到这种行为增长趋势。

So for example, in one study, we labeled March 20 as the first day of spring in one condition, but not in the other. Just it's the third Thursday in March. And we see really huge differences when it's labeled as the first day of spring and how attractive it is as a date to start pursuing a goal, for example. So we both see correlationally, sort of naturally people take advantage of these moments when they're looking at when to change. And we can run experiments and show that if we change the labels associated with certain dates and and add fresh start labels, dates that feel like a new beginning, we see this uptick.

所以综合来看，这指向那些感觉像是过渡、像是人生新篇章开始的时刻，特别是那些具有我们所研究特征的时间标志点，包括这些日历周期的开始。

So taking that all together, it points to moments that feel like transitions, feel like a new beginning of a chapter in our lives, and particularly temporal landmarks that have those features that we've studied include the starts of these, calendar cycles.

好的，但这在某种意义上是一种外部推动。如果我现在想要做出改变，但眼前没有明显的新起点呢？我能否为自己创造一个新起点？

Okay, but that's an external nudge in a sense. Now what if I want to make a change, but there isn't some obvious fresh start right now? Is there something that I can do for myself that would just create a fresh start?

是的，这是个很好的问题。首先，我想说即使这些日期是外部的，也有那么多日期你可以寻找下一个并抓住它，对吧？要知道，星期一每七天就会出现一次。所以即使你需要等待七天才能开始，它们也相当频繁。因此我认为即使有这个限制，它们也可以作为锁定目标的时刻。

Yeah, it's a wonderful question. First of all, would say there are so many dates that even though they are external, you can sort of look for the next one and jump on it, right? You know, Monday occurs every seven days, it turns out. So even though you have to wait around for seven days to start, they're fairly frequent. So I do think even with that constraint, can be useful as moments to sort of lock on to.

关于能否为自己创造一个，我提到的我的前学生Heng Chen，她在论文中做了一些与稍不同类型的新起点相关的工作。她称之为重置。这是一种不同的方式——它不是擦除过去的时间标志，而是我们追踪表现方式的某种改变可以擦除过去。例如，我戴Fitbit。每天早晨，我都感觉有点像新的开始，因为昨天我可能积累了少得可怜的步数，或者非常高的步数。

In terms of whether you can create one for yourself, Heng Chen, who I mentioned, my former student, she did some work in her dissertation related to a slightly different kind of fresh start. She calls it a reset. And it's a different way that we it's not a temporal landmark that wipes the slate clean, but rather, some a change in the way we're tracking our performance that can wipe the slate clean. So for instance, I wear a Fitbit. And every morning, I sort of feel like I have a bit of a fresh start because yesterday I had accumulated, you know, maybe a pathetically low number of steps, maybe a really high number of steps.

无论如何，我醒来时它又显示为零。这在某种意义上是一次重置和新起点。我们追踪表现有各种不同方式，无论是销售业绩（如果你在组织中）、职业运动员追踪赛季数据，还是学生的成绩（按学期或季度），这些东西都会以不同频率重置。对于自我追踪，我们可能更有控制权的一点就是这些重置发生的时间。如果我们正处于困难时期，重置实际上可以成为激励改进、设定目标和做得更好的宝贵工具。

Either way, I wake up and it says zero again. And that's a reset and a fresh start in a sense. There's all these different ways in which we track our performance, whether it's sales performance, if you're in an organization, whether you're a professional athlete, and you're sort of tracking your stats for the season, and things get reset at different frequencies, grades for students, whether it's semester, quarter. So one thing that we may have some more control over, especially for tracking ourselves, is when these resets occur. And if we're having a rough time, it turns out resets can be really valuable as a motivator to improve and set goals and do better.

有趣的是，她的研究还发现重置是有害的。我认为这其实很直观——当我们做得非常好的时候。所以当事情不顺、需要动力去做尚未完成的事情时，你希望擦除过去重新开始。但当你势如破竹时，新起点实际上会带来破坏和危害。因此我们必须谨慎使用这个特定工具。

Interestingly, her research also finds that resets are harmful. And I think this is very intuitive actually in cases where we're doing really well. So you want to wipe the slate clean and have a fresh start when things aren't going your way, when you need the motivation to do something you haven't managed to do. But when you're on a roll, it's actually disruptive and harmful to have a fresh start. So we do have to use this particular tool with some caution.

你最初是工程专业的学生，在书中你写道在某种程度上你将行为改变视为工程问题。这是什么意思？

You started out as an engineering student and you write in the book that in some ways you approach behavior change as an engineering problem. What do you mean by that?

是啊，上这个播客挺有意思的，我经常被贴上心理学家的标签。你们会笑的，我这辈子真的从没上过心理学课。我的本科和博士学位都是工程学领域的。所以这是一种看待世界的不同方式。

Yeah, it's funny to be on this podcast, and I'm often labeled a psychologist. You will laugh. I have literally never taken a psychology class in my entire life. My undergraduate degree and PhD are both in, in engineering. And and so that's the it's a different way of looking at the world.

这种方式更像是寻找那些可以通过整合正确部件来解决问题的方法，比如填补漏洞、修复缺口或改进结构。这就是我被训练出来的思维方式。事实证明，我认为这是看待许多心理学问题的非常有用的视角，特别是在我的行为科学领域。我们花了大量时间记录判断错误，即人们系统性犯错的方式。但如果你真想开始纠正其中一些错误，拥有这种工程思维——比如，我该如何构建一个结构来填补那个漏洞？我该如何填补那个缺口？

It's sort of looking for, problems that you can solve by, pulling the right pieces together in order to, you know, plug a hole or fix a gap or improve a structure. That is the way that I was trained to think. And it turns out, I think it's quite a useful way of looking at a lot of psychology problems, especially in my field of behavioral science, we have spent a lot of time documenting errors and judgment, the ways that people make systematic mistakes. But if you want to actually start correcting some of those mistakes, having this engineering mindset, like, you know, what, how can I build a structure that plugs that hole? How can I fill that gap?

我认为这是一个非常有用的视角，并尝试将其带入我的工作中。我一直以解决方案为导向，寻找方法让我们对人类心智的了解不仅揭示难题、谜题、问题并暴露局限，还能让我们实际去克服、建设和成长，并弥合那些差距。

Is a really useful perspective, I think, and I've tried to bring that to my work. I've always been solutions oriented and looking for ways that what we know about the human mind not only presents conundrums and puzzles and problems and exposes limits, but also what we can do to actually overcome and build and grow, and bridge those gaps.

所以你最早的一些关于行为改变的研究是你所谓的'诱惑捆绑'，这个想法的灵感来自于你试图解决自己生活中的某个问题。你能讲讲那个故事，并解释一下什么是诱惑捆绑，以及它如何帮助人们改变行为吗？

So some of your first research on behavior change was what you call temptation bundling, the idea for which came from something, a problem that you were trying to solve in your own life. Can you tell us that story and explain what temptation bundling is and how it can help people change their behavior? Yeah,

我很乐意。这绝对是我的'自我研究'，这是我借用的一个术语。我想是另一位名叫Carrie Morwidge的心理学家教给我这个术语的。我太喜欢这个词了。说实话，正是这一点吸引我进入这个领域，当时我正在做一些研究。

I would love to. This is absolutely me search, which is a term I'm borrowing. I think another psychologist named Carrie Morwidge is the person who taught me that term. I love I love that term. It it's what drew me into the field, honestly, was that I was doing some research.

那时我还是个工程学研究生，面对艰难的课程苦苦挣扎，漫长的一天结束后疲惫不堪。我回家后本该做习题集，却只想蜷缩在沙发上享受娱乐，比如读一本引人入胜的小说或者狂看网飞剧。我很难找到完成工作的动力。同样地，我知道自己真的需要定期锻炼，这对我的身心健康很重要。

So I was a graduate student at the time in engineering and and struggling with tough classes and tired at the end of a long day. And all I wanted to do when I came home and should have been working on problem sets was curl up on my couch with, you know, entertainment, a juicy page turner or binge watch Netflix, one of the above. I was struggling to find the motivation to get my work done. Similarly, I knew that I really needed to exercise regularly. It was important for my physical and mental health.

我是个终身运动员，但就是没法逼自己去健身房。尤其是在那些漫长的一天结束感到筋疲力尽的时候，我忽然有了一个顿悟，一个小小的'自我研究'。顺便说一句，许多其他人也独立地有过这个顿悟，那就是：如果我只允许自己在锻炼时享受这些放纵的娱乐资源呢？也许那真的能把我拖到健身房去。而且，也许这样我也能停止在家浪费时间狂看电视，而那时我本该做我的习题集。

I was a lifelong athlete, but I just could not drag myself to the gym. And especially at the end of those long days when I was feeling worn out, I sort of had this epiphany, a little me search. And by the way, many other people have had this epiphany independently, which was what if I only let myself enjoy these indulgent entertainment sources while I'm exercising? Maybe that would actually drag me to the gym. And so and and maybe also I'd stop wasting time at home binge watching TV when I should have been doing my problem sets.

于是我尝试了这个方法。我制定了一个新规则：只允许自己在锻炼时享受娱乐，这彻底改变了我的生活。突然间，下班回家后，我只想冲去健身房看看后续剧情。最近我迷上了有声书，一些通俗的有声书——好吧，这个不算太通俗。《哈利波特》、詹姆斯·帕特森的作品、《饥饿游戏》这类引人入胜的惊悚小说。

So I tried this out. I made a new rule that I was only allowed to indulge in entertainment while I was exercising, and it was life altering. All of a sudden, I'd come home from a long day, and all I wanted to do was rush to the gym to find out what happened. And and the latest, I was actually I got into audiobooks, lowbrow audiobooks like, well, this isn't very lowbrow. Harry Potter, James Patterson, you know, the hunger games, page turners, thrillers.

我会迫切想知道这些角色的后续发展，于是飞奔去健身房。我完成了很棒的锻炼，甚至没注意到自己在运动。时间过得飞快。通常锻炼是件苦差事，但我完全沉浸在这些角色和故事中，就一直坚持了下来。

I would I would wanna know what happened next to these characters, so I dash off to the gym. I get in these great workouts where I didn't even notice that I was exercising. The time was flying so fast. Normally, exercise was a drag, but I was so into these characters and the stories. I kept going.

回家后我完全神清气爽，准备好完成工作，而且没有任何干扰。我当时想：哇，这方法对我真管用，应该看看是否也能帮助别人。于是我开始进行实验，测试这种我称之为'诱惑捆绑'的方法——将令人愉悦的诱惑与原本感觉像苦差事的活动相结合，使其更易坚持、更愉快——是否对他人有效。现在我们已通过多项实验证明，诱惑捆绑对其他人也是有效的工具，不止对我一个人有效，不是孤例。

And then I come home, and I was totally refreshed and rejuvenated, ready to get my work done, and there's no distractions. And I thought, wow. This is really working for me, and I should see if this could help other people. So I ended up doing some experiments to test whether or not what I now call temptation bundling or linking something that you find a pleasure in a temptation with an activity that would otherwise feel like a chore in order to make it more, you know, endurable and more more pleasant could help people. So we've run a couple of experiments now showing that temptation bundling can be a helpful tool, to other people, not just me, not an n of one.

第一个实验是这样的：我们随机分配一组人，给他们提供诱人的有声小说（可加载到iPod上），要求他们在健身房锻炼时收听前30分钟。并告知他们：如果想继续收听从我们提供的80本经过预测试的小说菜单中选出的作品后续剧情，就必须返回健身房——因为我们会把他们的iPod锁在受监控的储物柜里，只有来锻炼时才能取用。我们将这组的锻炼习惯与对照组比较：对照组同样在开始时进行30分钟锻炼，也拥有iPod，同样获得等值的巴诺书店礼品卡（当然可用来购买有声书），但我们没有建议他们进行诱惑捆绑。结果发现诱惑捆绑在短期内显著增加了锻炼频率。

So one experiment, the first one we did, we randomly assigned people to a group where they would, be given tempting audio novels that they could load onto iPods and then listen to the first thirty minutes while they were doing a workout at the gym. And we told them if they wanted to hear what happened next in whichever tempting novel they'd picked from a menu of 80 we gave them that had been pretested, well, they would have to come back to the gym because we'd be holding their iPod hostage in a locked monitored locker they could only access when they came in for a workout. And we compared that group's exercise habits to a control group that also did a thirty minute workout at the start, also owned iPods, was also given an equally valued, gift, a gift certificate to Barnes and Noble, which they could, of course, use to buy audiobooks if they wanted. But we gave them no suggestion to temptation bundle. And what we found is that temptation bundling did increase exercise pretty substantially in the short term.

这项研究持续了十周。效果在前七周非常显著。然后感恩节假期到来——我们在城市大学健身房做的实验——健身房关闭了。

So the study went for ten weeks. The effects were, robust for seven weeks. Then along came Thanksgiving break. We did the City University gym. The gym closed.

所有人都回家了。我认为这其实是研究中另一个有趣的部分：这段强制与诱惑刺激分离的时期完全抹杀了效果。后续研究表明，在没有这种中断的情况下，效果会更持久，但这也回溯到我们之前讨论的'新起点'话题——重置和中断在某些情况下有益，但当你好不容易进入状态时，反而可能造成破坏。

Everybody went home. And and this was actually, I think, another interesting part of the research. The effect was totally wiped out by that period of forced separation from the tempting stimulus. So, you know, we've done subsequent studies where we show it can have a more durable effect when you don't have that kind of disruption, but it also links back to what we were talking about with fresh starts and how resets and disruption can be good in some cases, but when you're on a roll, it can be harmful.

这么说你会变得依赖iPod才愿意去健身房。

You get kind of dependent then on your iPod in order to go to the gym.

如果你

If you

回家时没有就算了。我放弃了。

don't have it when you go back home, forget it. I'm done.

确实如此。这些机制之所以如此有趣，部分原因在于：虽然存在断裂和不确定性，但总有一些完全明确、始终有效的要素——没有中间调节变量。研究人类的迷人之处就在于总能发掘出耐人寻味的复杂性。言归正传，这就是关于诱惑捆绑的研究。虽然我只以锻炼为例说明，但要提醒听众：如果你有其他觉得像负担却想坚持的行为，这个理论工具同样适用于生活诸多场景。比如只允许自己在做家务或烹饪健康餐（如果你有这些目标）时收听最爱的播客（比如本节目）；或者只在去图书馆啃书本时顺路买最爱的零食——如果学习让你觉得痛苦，就用这种方式增添乐趣。

Exactly. Exactly. It break and there's anyway, all these things I think part of what makes them so interesting is there's there are a few things that are just sort of totally unambiguous, always work, there's no moderators, and that's one of the things that's so interesting about studying humans is that there's always interesting complexity to unpack. Anyway, so that's that's the work on temptation bundling, and I've talked about it only in the context of exercise, But just wanna point out for listeners who have other kinds of behaviors that they find to be chores or burdens and they're trying to engage in more, it's a tool that theoretically should be applicable to lots of settings in life, not just getting yourself to the gym. So you can think about, know, only letting yourself listen to your favorite podcast, say this one, while you're doing household chores or cooking fresh meals if those are goals that you wanna fulfill or only letting yourself pick up a favorite treat or snack on the way to hit the books at the library if that feels like a chore, but you want something to make it more of a pleasure.

除了锻炼，我们还能创造多种诱惑组合，但这确实是我最初实践和研究的方向。

So there's lots of ways we can create temptation bundles beyond exercise, but that is where I first did it and studied it.

你的著作按章节编排，每章探讨不同人性特质——我在开场提过的冲动、惰性、拖延等。能聊聊书中最让你惊艳的案例吗？关于如何顺应而非对抗这些特质来实现改变？

So your book is organized into chapters, each covering a different aspect of human nature, of which I mentioned in the introduction, impulsivity, laziness, procrastination. Can you talk about your favorite examples from the book about how we can work with rather than against these traits when we're trying to make change?

好的。可能我最喜欢的例子已经广为人知，但它实在太重要，所以我还是要强调。那就是默认选项的力量——这堪称行为科学最成功的应用之一，它与人的惰性密切相关。人类天生倾向于选择阻力最小的路径。

Yeah. Probably my favorite example is one that is it's really well known, and yet it's so important, so I'm just gonna harp on it anyway. I think it's it's, the power of defaults. And I think this is one of the biggest wins from behavioral science and it has to do with laziness. So in general, we humans prefer to take the path of least resistance.

无论是领工资、买午餐还是实现任何目标，我们总在寻找最轻松的捷径而非最艰难的道路。这当然会构成挑战——比如想练就好身材或攻读博士学位时，寻找捷径的思维反而会成为改变的阻碍。书中我对此进行了大量探讨。

Whatever the easiest route is to, you know, collecting my paycheck or getting my lunch or, you know, whatever it is, whatever goal you have, we're always looking for the shortcuts in the easiest way instead of the hardest work, path. And that actually, of course, is a challenge, right, when it comes to trying to get yourself in great physical shape or, you know, earning your PhD. The fact that we're looking for shortcuts does not really help frame. You've it's often a barrier to change. And so I talk a lot about that in the book.

但有趣的是，默认设置彻底颠覆了这一点，将懒惰变成了一种优势。默认选项就是那种如果你什么都不做、毫不费力就会得到的结果。比如你的电脑自带默认设置，对吧？你一开机。

But one of the things that's so interesting is that, defaults flip this on its head and turn laziness into an asset. So a default is the sort of option you will end up with in a situation if you literally don't lift a finger, you do nothing. So your computer comes with default settings. Right? You turn it on.

它有默认的背景屏幕、默认字体，可能还有默认浏览器。所有这些都预先存在。如果你选择最省力的路径，那么最终就会得到这些默认选项。

It has some background screen. It has default fonts. It probably has a default browser. There's all these things that are just there. And if you take the path of least resistance, well, that's what you end up with.

我认为最有趣的一点是，一旦你认识到默认设置的力量——它们已在众多情境中被研究（虽然不是我本人研究，但协会有许多优秀学者从事此项工作），比如埃里克·约翰逊和丹·戈德斯坦就做过精彩研究，显示默认器官捐献政策如何改变我们的决定。在默认成为器官捐献者但只需勾选选项并签个字就能轻易退出的国家，器官捐献率远高于需要主动选择加入的国家——我说反了？不，我说对了，美国就是需要主动加入的体制。

And so I I think one of the really interesting things is, once you start to recognize their power, and they've been studied in so many different contexts, it's actually not something I've studied, but lots of wonderful scholars in this association have. I'll just mention, for instance, Eric Johnson and Dan Goldstein have some wonderful work on how much default organ donation policies change our decisions. So countries where you're defaulted into being an organ donor, but you can just opt out trivially easily by sort of checking a box and signing your name on a basic form have vastly higher rates of organ ownership than countries where you have to, I said it the wrong way. No, I said it the right way, where you have to opt in Right. Which is what we have in The United States.

在美国，你去车管所勾选选项才能加入。虽然操作简单，但捐献率却更低，因为我必须主动采取行动，而人们总是选择最省力的路径。器官捐献问题尤其复杂，因为实际器官处理不仅取决于是否签字勾选加入或退出，但巨大差异显示了默认政策的力量，也说明若想正向改变行为，深入思考默认设置至关重要。当我们设计帮助人们实现目标的默认选项时，比如默认配餐是苹果片而非薯条。

So in The United States, you go to the DMV, you check a box, you opt in. It's trivially easy, but we have lower donation rates because I had to take some action, and we always look for the path of least resistance. So, anyway, this is organ donation is a particularly tricky one because it's more than just whether you sign your name and check a box and are opted in or opted out that determines what actually happens with organs. But it shows the power because of these huge differences of a default policy and how important it is to put deep thought into that if you want to change behavior in a positive direction. So when we have defaults that are structured to help people achieve their goals, right, we default them into getting apple slices with their meal instead of french fries on the side.

或是默认将人们设为器官捐献者（尽管这个选择确实存在复杂性）。所有这些选择都在利用懒惰帮助我们达成目标。例如我的浏览器主页不是脸书或推特，而是《纽约时报》。

Or we default people into say being organ donors. Although again, that one, that one has some complexity. All of those choices, they use laziness to help us achieve a goal. So for instance, my browser's homepage is not Facebook or Twitter. It's The New York Times.

这样每天打开浏览器时我都会接触到新闻，而不会陷入可能浪费时间的漩涡。相反，我获得的是自己认为有益的内容。你还可以在食品储藏室设置默认选项，存放触手可及的食材。这样当你追求健康时，就很难拿到渴望却不健康的汉堡薯条或披萨——储藏室里没有饼干。

So every day I encounter some news when I open it up, and and I don't get sucked into a vortex of, something that maybe I I'm gonna be tempted to waste time with. Instead, I'm getting something that I consider enriching. There's defaults you can have in your pantry in terms of what foods you keep on hand. So that it's it's hard to get the burger and fries or the pizza that you crave that aren't as good for you if you wanna stay healthy. You don't have the cookies in the pantry.

你存放健康零食。现在你的默认选项和最省力路径就与目标保持一致了。所以我认为，一旦理解懒惰的力量并学会利用它为我们服务，这就能成为帮助我们走向成功的强大工具。

You have healthy snacks. And now your defaults and the path of least resistance is aligned with your goals. So I think that's a really powerful tool we can use to set ourselves up, for success once we understand the power of laziness and that we can use it and harness it to our benefit.

这也是一个促使人们储蓄的好方法。我的意思是，我总是很惊讶为什么不是所有雇主都自动将员工纳入401(k)计划。你知道，你根本不会注意到这笔钱，对吧？而且我认为你在这方面也做过一些研究。

And that's a great one to get people to save as well. I mean, it always amazes me that every employer doesn't like automatically enroll you in the four zero one ks plan. You know, you won't notice it, right? And I think you've done some work in that area as well.

完全正确。这可能是除了器官捐赠之外最著名也最有用的例子之一。雇主们——这是Bridget Madrian和Dennis Shea的研究成果，他们最早在2003年左右发现：当一家公司从要求新员工勾选表格并签名才能将部分工资存入储蓄账户，改为只需勾选表格并签名就能选择不参加时，他们的401(k)计划参与率几乎一夜之间提高了40%，这极大地增加了人们的退休储蓄。所以现在，公司默认将储蓄纳入401(k)计划实际上还能享受税收优惠。

Absolutely. Probably probably the one of the most famous examples and most useful examples besides the organ donation is that employers and this is work by Bridget Madrian and Dennis Shea that first showed this in about, I think, 2003 when one employer switched from having new employees enroll by checking a box and signing their name, and they'd start having a portion of every paycheck sent to their savings account. They just made a little change in the paperwork, and now you had to check a box and sign your name to say, I don't want that done. And overnight, they saw almost a 40% increase in enrollment in their four zero one ks program, which led to huge increases in people's savings for retirement. And so now it's actually tax advantaged for companies to make savings in their four zero one ks as a default.

我记得2006年通过了《养老金保护法案》，这是两党一致同意的。大家都认为，应该利用人的惰性来确保美国人拥有更好的财务保障。所以这是一个政策制定者可以使用的绝佳工具范例。当然我们个人也可以使用它。比如，你现在几乎可以在任何银行账户设置定期扣款或资金转移。

There was a, an the 2006 Pension Protection Act, I believe, passed that that was nonpartisan. Just everyone agreed, let's harness laziness to make sure that Americans have better financial security. And so it's a terrific example of a tool that, policymakers can use. We can certainly also use it ourselves. Like, you can go into almost any bank account today and create a recurring deduction from one or movement from one to another.

一旦你设置了一次，就再也不用去想它了。没有人会去改动这些设置，对吧？因为人都是懒惰的，会选择阻力最小的路径。所以如果你在某次充满动力想要增加储蓄率的新起点时，一次性设置好从每笔工资自动扣款到一个不动的储蓄账户，你就能积累更多财富。

And once you set it once, you'll never think about it again. No one's ever going and changing these things. Right? Because you're lazy, you're on the path of least resistance. So if you just one time, maybe at one fresh start when you're feeling motivated to increase your savings rate, you set up that auto deduction from every paycheck into a savings account that you don't touch, you are gonna accumulate more.

所以这确实是一个非常强大的工具。

So that's a really powerful tool.

这引发了一个问题：个人如何识别在特定情境下有效的策略。对于想要做出改变的听众来说，他们应该经过怎样的思考过程才能找到适合自己的策略？

That raises a question around how an individual can identify strategies that are going to work in a particular situation. I mean, how for the listener who wants to make a change, what should they be going through mentally in order to find that strategy that's going to work for them?

我很喜欢这个问题。说实话，在某种程度上，正是这个问题促使我写了这本书。因为我意识到，当我与个人或面临行为改变挑战的组织交流时（这正是我研究中常做的），大家往往倾向于寻找现成的、听起来不错的解决方案——可能这些方案在其他情境中被证明有效——但很少有人努力去诊断改变的障碍究竟是什么。也就是说缺乏匹配意识，没有认识到：必须理解是什么在阻碍你，才能选择正确的工具来克服挑战。所以我写这本书，既是为了分享我职业生涯中积累的所有关于行为改变科学的知识，同时也是围绕这个思路组织内容：好吧，当你面对问题时，实际上存在一系列相当可预测且容易识别的障碍。

Yeah, I love that question. Honestly, that is the very question that I would say to some degree was the impetus for writing the book, is that I felt like what I'd realized is when I talked to individuals, when I talked to organizations that were looking at behavior change challenges, which is what I often do in my research, there was this tendency to just sort of look for off the shelf solutions that sounded good and like, you know, maybe they'd been proven effective in some other situation, but there was very little effort made to diagnose what was the barrier to change. So there wasn't this matching. Like there wasn't an appreciation that it mattered, that you understood what was obstructing you in order to choose the right tool to overcome that challenge. And so I tried to write this book to actually both share everything I knew about the science of behavior change after a career spending it, but also I organized it around, Okay, there are a set of pretty predictable barriers that are actually very recognizable when you are facing a problem.

一旦你读过这本书或浏览过这个清单，你就会很容易地说，哦，是的，那是个遗忘问题。我晚上不吃药的原因是我总是忘记。不是因为它们有可怕的副作用让我难受，也不是因为我在拖延，宁愿明天做而不是今天。那是个遗忘问题。

You will pretty easily, once you sort of have read the book or read through this list, you'll say, oh, yeah, like, that's a forgetting problem. The reason I'm not taking my medications at night is I always forget. It's not that they have awful side effects and it's miserable. It's not that I'm procrastinating because I'd rather do it tomorrow than today. That's a forgetting problem.

一旦你认识到这些系统性的问题类型，实际上就很容易看清和诊断你面临的是哪种改变障碍。然后一旦知道了，就有大量科学研究表明，好吧，如果是遗忘问题，这些是有效的提醒方式，这些是工具和策略。但如果是拖延障碍，你需要一套完全不同的策略。所以我认为诊断部分其实很简单，只需要稍微接触一下，我写的书就提供了这些，但你知道，获得心理学硕士学位甚至拿起课本学习判断决策文献，这并不困难或复杂。只是我们通常跳过这一步。

Sort of once you recognize the types of problems that are systematic, it's actually very easy to see and diagnose what kind of barrier you are facing to change. And then once you know it, there's a whole lot of science that suggests, okay, if it's a forgetting problem, here are the kinds of reminders that work, here are the tools and strategies. But if it's a barrier of procrastination, you need a really different suite of strategies. So I would say actually the diagnosis part is as simple as having a little bit of exposure, and the book that I wrote provides that, but you know, a master's in psychology or even picking up a textbook and learning about the judgment decision making literature, it's not it's not hard or complex at all. It's just a step we normally skip.

我们通常直接跳到，哦，你知道，我没有实现目标。我肯定需要培养微小习惯，或者设定更大胆的目标，或者可视化成功，而不是先思考：等等。好的，在我尝试解决这个问题之前，障碍是什么？障碍会指引我找到正确的解决方案。

We normally go right for the, oh, you know, I'm not achieving my goals. I must need to, you know, build tiny habits, or I must need to set bigger, more audacious goals or or visualize success instead of thinking, wait. Okay. First, before I try to solve this problem, what is the barrier? And the barrier is going to guide me towards the right solution.

因为有很多解决方案。有一大堆。正如你所说，到处都是自助书籍，而且很多它们的解决方案都是基于科学的，我应该这么说。只是它们很少深入探讨，哦，这个只适用于这类问题，这真的是针对这种问题的解决方案。

Because there are many solutions. There's a whole slew of them. And as you said, there's self help books all over the place and lots of their solutions are science based, I should say. It's just rarely do they get into like, oh, this only, you know, this is really a solution for this type of problem.

那么同伴支持以及向他人承诺的想法呢？我的意思是，你以某种方式被问责，这样你是不是更可能坚持到底？

What about peer support and the idea of making a commitment to another person? I mean, you're held accountable somehow, are you then more likely to follow through?

是的。我觉得这是我给你的最简单答案。就是是的。

Yes. I'm like, this is the easiest answer I get to give you. Just yes.

好的，我们继续吧。

Yeah, let's move on.

是的。当然，实际情况比这更复杂。但没错，没错，没错。同伴支持的力量非常强大。同伴支持有几个重要的组成部分。

Yes. Of course, it's more complicated than that. But yes, yes, yes. Peer support is so powerful. There's a couple of components of peer support that matter.

你提到了问责制，问责制绝对重要，因为当我们基本上提高恶习的代价时，对吧，无论是什么对你不利的事情，比如不学习、不为退休储蓄、不吃健康饮食，或者没有及时向老板提交报告。如果代价更大，那么你拖延和优先考虑当下乐趣而非长期利益的普遍倾向就会减少，对吧？所以你可以增加不良行为的成本，就会看到更少的发生。这是非常简单的数学。而增加成本的一种方式就是问责制，因为羞耻感和让他人失望的感觉，这些都是我们不愿支付的高昂代价。

You touched on accountability, and accountability absolutely matters because when we basically increase the price of our vice, right, whatever the thing is that's bad for you, like not studying or not saving for retirement or not eating a healthy diet or not, you know, getting your report to your boss in time. If there's a bigger cost, then your general tendency to procrastinate and to prioritize what's fun in the moment instead of what's good for you in the long run, well, the bigger the cost, the less that, is likely to happen, right? So you can up the cost of bad behavior and you'll see less of it. This is very simple math. And, one way to up the cost is accountability because shame and feeling that you've let someone else down, those are big costs that we don't like to pay.

所以绝对没错，同伴支持重要的原因之一就是它能创造问责制，为未能坚持到底增加额外成本。但除了问责制，同伴支持还有很多其他好处。我认为最大的好处之一——可能最令人印象深刻的研究来自1950年代的所罗门·阿什，最近罗伯特·西奥迪尼研究了社会规范——就是当我们环顾四周，看到我们的同伴在做什么、取得了什么成就时，它让我们了解什么是正常的，这告诉我们什么是可能的、什么会得到社会回报，比如如何交到朋友，所以你想融入，并且你实际上通过他人的成就看到了自己的潜力。因此，不仅在有同伴群体、你向他们看齐且他们了解你的目标时存在问责制，你还可以通过其他方式创建同伴支持系统，并从同伴那里获得关于实现目标可能性的宝贵知识。

So absolutely, one of the reasons peer support matters is because it can create accountability and it can create those extra costs for failing to follow through. But peer support has a lot of other benefits besides accountability. One of the biggest, I think, which has been studied maybe most impressively by folks like Solomon Asch in the 1950s, and then more recently sort of Robert Cialdini has studied social norms. That is when we look around and see what other people, our peers, are doing, what they're achieving, it gives us knowledge about what's normal, and that tells us what's possible and what will be, rewarded, socially, like, you know, how we'll have friends, so you wanna fit in, and you actually see what what you're capable of in other people's achievements. So not only is there accountability when you have peer groups and you look to those peer groups and they know about your goals, but you can create peer support systems in other ways, and you can gain valuable knowledge from your peers about what you can achieve when it comes to goals.

所以实际上，如果你有能力以某种方式构建你的同伴群体，仔细思考这一点真的很重要。你知道，妈妈们明白这一点，爸爸们也明白。抱歉有点性别歧视。我丈夫在很多方面可能比我更积极地塑造我们儿子的同伴群体。所以认真思考你身边是谁非常重要。

So it's really important actually to think carefully if you can, if you have the power to structure your peer group in some way. And, you know, moms know this, and dads know this too. Sorry to be sexist. My my husband is a probably more engaged caregiver in many ways than I am shaping our son's peer groups. So it's really important to think about who you're surrounded with.

如果你身边都是榜样，他们向你展示这是可能的，比如你想跑马拉松，他们就在跑马拉松，他们做得非常棒，或者他们是素食者，你想成为素食者，那是你向往的生活方式。你的同伴为你指明道路，如果你观察，他们可以展示如何达到他们的位置，你甚至可以刻意地、策略性地复制粘贴他们用来成功实现目标的策略。总之，在‘是的’之后这是一个很长的回答。但同伴支持在行为改变中扮演着重要角色。

If you're surrounded with people who are role models, who are showing you this is possible, you know, you wanna run marathons, they're running marathons, they're, you know, they're really doing a great job, or they're vegetarians, you wanna be a vegetarian, that's the kind of lifestyle you aspire to lead. Your peers show you the way, and they can show you how to get where they are if you look and you can literally deliberately, strategically copy and paste tactics that they use to successfully achieve their goals. So anyway, that was a long answer after yes. But peer support has a big role to play in behavior change.

那么这让我想到了疫苗的接种。好吧，因为，你知道，疫情初期一旦我们有了疫苗，很多想法是同伴压力、同伴支持、同伴榜样会促使人们接种疫苗。但我们发现，这对一些人有效，对很多人无效。我们哪里做错了？哦天哪。

So that brings me then to vaccine uptake. Okay, because, you know, a lot of the thinking early in the pandemic once we had vaccines was that peer pressure, peer support, peer example, would make people get vaccinated. And we're finding, it works for some people, not for a lot of people. What are we doing wrong? Oh gosh.

这是

This is

我们可以就这个话题聊上两小时，甚至两天。是的，我不认为我们当初错了——同伴支持和社会规范对疫苗接种确实重要。我确实认为这是真的。但天真的是假设对所有人来说，障碍都能通过看到周围人接种疫苗而解决，这里我又回到了问题与解决方案匹配的观点。

we could we could have a two hour con we could have a two day conversation about this. Yeah. I don't I don't think we were wrong that peer, support social norms would matter for vaccination. I actually think that's true. We just it would have been naive to say, and here I'm coming back to problem solution matching, that for everyone, the barrier was going to be solved by seeing others around them getting vaccinated.

对吧？对某些人来说，不接种疫苗的原因可能是：天啊，这听起来有点新且吓人。我不知道。看看别人怎么做。如果别人接种了并且没事，也许我会更放心。

Okay? So for some people, the reason you might not get a vaccine might be, well, gosh, this sounds sort of new and scary. I don't know. We'll see if other people do it. If other people do it and it works out fine for them, maybe I'll feel more comfortable.

他们的同伴规范会非常重要。看到很多你信任的人或社区里的人接种疫苗的自拍，那会有帮助。我认为这确实起到了相当大的作用。如果你看一年前的调查，去年九月，只有大约一半的美国人表示他们会放心接种疫苗，而现在，我们已经超过70%的成年人接种了第一针。所以超过一半有机会接种的美国人这么做了。

And their peer norms are gonna be really important. Seeing lots of, you know, selfies of of people you trust or in your community taking this vaccine, that is gonna help. And and I think that did do a fair amount of work. If you look at surveys from a year ago, last September, only about half of Americans said they would feel comfortable getting a vaccine and and we're, you know, well past, we're we're past seventy percent of adults now having had their first shot. That's So more than half of Americans who had the opportunity to get a shot doing it.

对吧？所以我们比一年前好多了，我猜部分原因——我是说，有很多因素。但部分原因可能与看到同伴、看到数亿人接种了疫苗有关，现在感觉更放心了。但问题是，这不是唯一的障碍。还有错误信息，这是一个主要障碍。

Right? So we're way better off than we were a year ago, I suspect part of that I mean, there's so many things. But part of it may have had to do with seeing their peers, seeing, you know, hundreds of millions of people have done this, and now it feels comfortable. But the thing is that wasn't the only barrier. There's misinformation, which is a major barrier.

还有一个我认为重要的障碍需要承认，那就是成本。真正的成本包括请假、照顾孩子、出现症状等。在这样一个收入不平等、机会不平等普遍存在的国家，承认和认识到这一点很重要。仅仅免费提供并不能覆盖所有相关成本。所以，你知道，障碍真的多种多样。

There's another barrier that I think is important to acknowledge, which is cost. There's real cost in terms of time off from work, having childcare, having symptoms. That is important to acknowledge and recognize, especially in a country where we have so much income inequality, so much inequality of opportunity more generally. And just making something available for free is not covering all of the costs associated with it. So, you know, really wide range of different barriers.

因此我们需要许多不同的解决方案来克服所有这些。当然，它还被政治化了，这无济于事。我有很多聪明的同事可以在这个播客上更明智地谈论如何解决这个问题。这不是我的专长，但我很钦佩在这个领域关于两极分化问题所做的伟大工作。是的。

And so we need a lot of different solutions to overcome all of that. And and, of course, it's been politicized, and that didn't help things. And I have lots of brilliant colleagues who could say much smarter things on this podcast about how to tackle that. That's not my specialty, but I do admire the great work being done Yeah. In this field on on the issues of polarization.

那么我们从这里做什么？我的团队在过去一年花了很多时间思考和研究这个问题，并审视不同的策略——我们进行了一些所谓的“超级研究”，即非常大规模的随机对照试验，不是测试单个假设，而是同时并行测试几十个。我们与沃尔玛药房和两个大型医疗系统合作进行了这些研究，测试不同的短信沟通方式，鼓励人们接种疫苗，并看看哪些最有效。我们找到了一种后来证明有用的策略。去年秋天我们在流感疫苗的背景下研究它，希望它能适用于COVID。

And so what do we do from here? My team has spent a lot of time thinking in the last year and studying this problem and and looking at different tactics from we ran some we call them mega studies, really, really massive randomized controlled trials where instead of testing a single hypothesis, we test literally dozens at the same time in parallel. We've run these studies with Walmart pharmacies and with two large healthcare systems to test out different text messaging communications, encouraging people to get a vaccine and see what worked best. We found a tactic that did then prove useful. We were studying it in the context of flu shots last fall, hoping it would port over to COVID.

实际上，我在谈论流感疫苗时提到了Heng Chen Dai——抱歉，我指的是Fresh Start研究。她从我们两项关于流感疫苗的大型研究中选取了表现最佳的策略，证明了该策略在促进COVID-19疫苗接种方面同样有效，并与Sylvia Sicardo及其他合著者最近几周在《自然》杂志发表了相关论文。那个信息是：它在等待你。它是为你预留的。它属于你。

And actually, I mentioned Heng Chen Dai when I was talking about flu shot excuse me, I was talking about the Fresh Start. She took sort of a best performer from our two mega studies on flu shots and proved that it then was effective in encouraging COVID nineteen vaccinations and had a paper about that come out in nature with Sylvia Sicardo and some other coauthors in the last couple weeks. And that message was, it's waiting for you. It's reserved for you. It belongs to you.

来认领它吧。所以这种所有权信息既传递了推荐意图，运用了禀赋效应（即我们更重视属于自己的东西），可能还让人感觉过程不会麻烦——因为已经为你预留好了。这样我就不需要争抢名额。这些因素可能共同促成了它的效果，不过我们并未研究具体机制。我们只是通过多次大型试验证明，在我们测试的大量方案中，这是表现最突出的策略。

Come claim it. So an ownership message sort of conveys recommendation, uses the endowment effect or the fact that we value things more that we feel belong to us, and also probably makes it feel like it's not gonna be a hassle because it's already been reserved for you. So I'm not going have to fight to get mine. All of those things probably are part of what makes it work that we did not study the mechanism. We just showed in multiple large trials that this was sort of the top performer in a big suite of things we tested.

因此我们一直推荐使用'已为您预留'这类表述。我不认为在疫情当前阶段这能完全解决疫苗接种问题，也不认为仅靠短信就足够。是的。但这是我们获得的一个洞察，对于第二针和加强针的推广，在沟通时采用这种优化语言或许会有所帮助。

So we've been recommending using its reserve free language. I don't think at this point in the pandemic that's gonna solve the problem with vaccination. I don't think we just need text messages at this point. Yeah. But but it's like it's one insight that we and it may be helpful with things like second shots and booster shots to try to use that, optimal language when we communicate about it.

而且这可能抵消某些观念，比如最初阶段接种非常困难的事实。我的意思是当时疫苗短缺，需要打电话四处打听隐秘渠道

And it may counter some of the thinking around, the fact that in the beginning, it was very hard to get a shot. I mean, it wasn't there. You know, you had to make phone calls and find secret ways

对。是的。能把我加入等候名单吗？能麻烦您回电吗？我明天再打给您。

to Yeah. Yes. Can I get on your wait list? Can you please call me? I'll call you again tomorrow.

没错。正是这样。所以

Yeah. Right. That's right. So

是的。但现在情况不同了，我认为我们需要不同的工具和策略。

Yeah. But it's a different moment now, and I think we need different tools and tactics.

那么，如何实现长期的持久改变呢？你在书中讲述了你与一位医生朋友的对话，你感叹在某个实验中虽然能让参与者更频繁地去健身房，但效果逐渐消失了。我们之前稍微讨论过这个，你的朋友说，我们不会期望给糖尿病患者注射一次胰岛素就能永远治愈。这很有道理。那么，为了实现持久改变，我们需要做些什么呢？

Well, what about making lasting change for the long term? You recounted in the book a conversation you had with a physician friend where you lamented that in one of your experiments, were able to get participants to go to the gym more often, but the effect wore off. We talked about that a little while ago, and your friend said, We wouldn't expect to give someone with diabetes insulin once and they're cured forever. And that makes sense. So what do we have to do to make lasting change?

改变是否有可能在不刻意维持的情况下自然持续下去？

Does a change ever just stick without a conscious effort to maintain it?

是的，这真是个非常好的问题。我真希望我有一个简单的答案。说实话，我觉得这可能是我未来——如果我能健康饮食、定期锻炼并为退休做好储蓄的话——希望再用四十年去研究的课题。凯文·沃尔普是那位向我提出这一精辟观点的科学家，一旦他说出来，就显得非常明显，但在他指出之前我从未想通：我们不应该把行为改变看作是一劳永逸的事情。

Yeah. It's a really wonderful question. I wish I had a really simple answer. I think, honestly, this is probably something I'll keep studying for the next hopefully, forty years of my life if I if I eat right and exercise regularly and save well for retirement. So Kevin Volpe is the scientist who made this great point to me, and it was sort of, glaringly obvious once he said it, but it hadn't clicked for me before he pointed out that we shouldn't be treating behavior change as sort of a one and done.

就像我们总想找到一种神奇的解决方案，就像治愈皮疹那样，但我们应该更像对待慢性疾病一样看待行为改变，并寻找一套解决方案，因为人性不会简单地关闭，对吧？我在书中写到的所有改变障碍，它们不会——你无法让它们消失。你一生都会与健忘、拖延和懒惰作斗争。我确实认为关于习惯的研究非常出色，偶尔表明我们可以让某些事情进入自动模式。我想指出南加州大学的温迪·伍德，我认为她是这一领域的领先思想家。似乎确实有些事情我们可以在一定程度上将其自动化，遵循我们在动物模型中看到的那种强化机制，对吧？如果你实施某种行为，然后获得奖励，然后重复，重复足够多次后，某些事情确实会变得自动，比如早上煮咖啡，或者洗头、用牙线清洁牙齿，如果你是医院的护理人员，还会消毒双手。

Like, we would we would find a solution that was magical the way that you wanna cure a rash, but that we should think about behavior changes more like facing a chronic disease and trying to look for a suite of solutions because human nature doesn't just turn off, right, all of the barriers to change that I write about in the book, they don't you can't just make them go away. You're be struggling with forgetfulness and procrastination and laziness for your whole life. I do think there's wonderful research on habits that occasionally suggests we can put things on autopilot. And I just wanna sort of point to Wendy Wood of University of Southern California as I think the leading thinker in this area. And it does seem that there are certain things that we really we can put on autopilot to some degree following sort of, you know, the kind of reinforcement we've seen in animal models, right, that you if you engage in the behavior and then you receive a reward and then you repeat and you do this enough times, things certain things do become automatic, like making coffee in the morning or, right, or shampooing your hair, flossing your teeth, hand sanitizing if you're a caregiver in a hospital.

这些似乎是真正可以习惯化并在很大程度上持续下去的事情。但我认为生活中我们关心的大多数事情——大多数事情都需要努力。不过也有一些神奇的例外，比如你的退休储蓄可以设置为自动模式。但我确实认为，我们生活中的许多目标，许多需要努力、思考和斟酌的事情，很难让它们自动运行。

These are the kinds of things that do seem to be where it is possible to really habituate it and have it for the most part continue. But I think most things require most of the things we care about in life. And also you can put on autopilot, right, your retirement savings. So there are some magic exceptions. But I do think a lot of the goals we have in life, a lot of the things that require effort and thought and deliberation, it's going to be very hard to autopilot them.

我不确定这是否可能。相反，我逐渐认识到正确的改变路径是创建你愿意依赖的结构和策略，来永久地帮助你克服障碍。对吧？例如，我仍然用诱惑捆绑的方式去健身房，这对我有效。嗯，在COVID期间我没去健身房，但为了锻炼，我寻找方法并且会一直这样做。

I'm not sure it's possible. And instead, what I have come to appreciate as the right path to change is to create structures and strategies that you're okay relying on to help you get through the barriers just permanently. Right? So for instance, I still temptation bundle to go to the gym, and that works for me. Well, and during COVID, I haven't been going to a gym, but to get my exercise in, I look for ways to do that and always will.

我觉得我永远不需要放弃那个策略。对吧？所以，一些我们可以用来帮助自己成功的“拐杖”——比如我们讨论过的责任约束或诱惑捆绑——没有必要将它们搁置一旁。没有必要说，‘我用这个一个月，然后我就能自己顺利前进了，不再需要这个策略了。’

And I don't feel like I needed to ever end that that strategy. Right? So some of the I'll call them crutches that we can use to get ourselves to succeed, like accountability or temptation bundling as we've talked about. There's no need to set them aside. There's no need to say, I'm gonna use this for a month, and then I'll be off to the races, and I won't need this tactic anymore.

相反，我认为我们应该预期会永久使用这些工具，并且不将其视为缺点。只是，你知道，我们需要这些工具来实现目标，应该继续使用它们，这才是我们达成目标的方式。

Instead, I think we should expect to use them forever and and not see that as a downside. It's just that's you know, we need these tools to achieve our goals, and we should keep using them, and that's how we get where we wanna be.

而且总会有另一本好书可以听。

And there's always another good book to listen to.

完全正确。是的，你永远听不完。这正是娱乐的美好之处——内容如此丰富。

Absolutely. Yes. You'll never run out. That is a wonderful thing about about entertainment. There's so much of it.

那么接下来呢？你现在想要解答哪些重大问题？

So what next? What what are the big questions that you're looking to answer now?

谢谢，这是个很好的问题。过去一年，我的团队确实非常专注于疫苗接种和新冠肺炎的问题，我们正在撰写相关论文。我们在我的家乡费城与市政府合作推出了疫苗抽奖活动，采用了一种名为'遗憾彩票'的特殊设计，这种彩票利用了人们对后悔的恐惧心理。全市居民自动参与抽奖，中奖者会接到电话通知，但若无法证明已接种疫苗则必须放弃奖品。

Thank you. That's a great question. I mean, the the last year has been truly very focused for my team on the issue of vaccination and and COVID nineteen, and we're we're, you know, working on some papers right now about that. We've been we launched vaccine sweepstakes in my hometown of Philadelphia in partnership with the city government that we designed using a regret lottery, which is a very specific type of lottery that, capitalizes on people's fear of regret. So everyone in the city was automatically entered, and they could get a phone call that their name had been drawn, but they would have to decline the prize if they couldn't prove they'd been vaccinated.

这个创意的核心在于：接到中奖电话却发现因未接种而必须放弃大奖会产生多大的后悔感？这种对预期后悔的本能幻想，可能比传统彩票（仅限接种者参与）能激励更多人去接种疫苗。我们实施了随机分配邮政编码获得额外中奖概率的机制，目前正在分析数据，试图为疫情现阶段（包括加强针推广和其他国家进入相同阶段时）提出最佳实践的政策建议。但展望未来几个月之后，正如你之前关于持久行为改变的问题所触及的——

So we were, you know, the idea is how how much would you regret getting that call, finding out you had won the grand prize and having to decline it, that just that visceral, fantasy of the anticipated regret might motivate some extra people to go get a vaccine above and beyond what you'd see in a typical standard lottery where you're only entered if you're eligible because you've gotten a vaccine. So we we've done that and we had sort of randomly assigned zip codes that actually had extra probabilities of winning. So we're working on analyzing that and trying to be able to come out with some policy recommendations for what are the best practices that we can use, at this phase in the pandemic and as we roll out probably booster shots and and as other countries reach the phase we've reached. But but really looking further forward than, you know, the next couple months, I think we sort of touched on it a bit in your prior question. You asked about enduring behavior change.

尽管我完全认同之前给出的答案——即持续使用这些工具，但我仍在研究雇主、学校、健身机构等组织如何通过配套策略帮助受益者实现持久积极改变。我正在探索这类组织能为员工、会员、学生提供哪些具有长期效用的工具，以及哪些课程设计特征最有效——是心态培养？是社会支持？

And I still even though I gave you an answer that I do completely agree with, you know, I believe in very much that the answer is we keep using these tools, I still study often tactics that an employer or a school or, you know, a gym, you know, an organization that's trying to help people create positive lasting change can wrap around beneficiaries to help them achieve that durably. And, so I'm looking into like, what are the tools that those kinds of organizations can offer to their employees, their members, students that will carry them forward for as long as possible. And what are the kinds of features of programming that make it the most effective? You know, is it mindset? Is it social?

是否还有其他我们尚未研究的策略能够创造更持久的变化？我对此非常渴望探索。我也很感兴趣想更深入地理解，当人们遭遇目标失败时，他们是如何重新站起来的。当然，新的开始是其中的一部分，书中还有其他策略。但我认为从失败中恢复至关重要，因为当我们着手实现目标时，几乎总是至少会失败一次。

Are there other tactics we haven't studied yet that do create more lasting change? So I'm really eager to explore that. I'm also really interested in understanding better when people have goal failure, how they stand up again. You know, fresh starts are part of it, of course, and there's other tactics in the book too. But I think recovering from failure is under it's so important because we almost always fail when we set out to achieve a goal at least once.

如果我们想要到达最终目的地，就必须重新振作起来，而且我认为关于如何做到这一点，还有很多需要了解的地方。

We have to get back up again if we're gonna get to our final destination, and I think there's a lot more to know about how to do that.

嗯，米尔克曼博士，这次对话真的非常有趣。我认为您正在进行极其重要的工作，感谢您今天加入我们。

Well, Doctor. Milkman, has been really interesting. I think you're doing, extraordinarily important work, and I wanna thank you for joining us today.

非常感谢您的邀请。这是一次非常愉快的对话。

Thank you so much for having me. This was a really fun conversation.

您可以在 www.speakingofpsychology.org 或 Apple、Stitcher 以及任何您获取喜爱播客的地方找到《Speaking of Psychology》的往期节目。如果可以，请给我们留下评论。如果您对未来播客有意见或想法，可以发送邮件至 speakingofpsychologyapa dot org。《Speaking of Psychology》由 Leigh Weinerman 制作，音效编辑是 Kris Kondian。

You can find previous episodes of Speaking of Psychology at www.speakingofpsychology.org or on Apple, Stitcher, or wherever you get your favorite podcasts. And please, where you can, leave us a review. If you have comments or ideas for future podcasts, you can email us at speakingofpsychologyapa dot org. Speaking of Psychology is produced by Leigh Weinerman. Our sound editor is Kris Kondian.

感谢您的收听。代表美国心理学会，我是 Kim Mills。

Thank you for listening. For the American Psychological Association, I'm Kim Mills.