返场特辑——为何成年人交友如此困难？与Marisa Franco博士一起探讨

说到《心理学》节目正在放暑假，所以我们重播了一些过去最受欢迎的剧集。2022年，我曾与心理学家兼友谊专家玛丽莎·佛朗哥探讨过成年人如何结交新朋友，以及如何巩固或重燃旧日友谊。希望您喜欢这期档案节目，几周后我们将带着新内容回归。童年时，交朋友似乎轻松又自然。

Speaking of psychology is taking a summer break, so we're rerunning some of our favorite episodes from the past. In 2022, I talked to psychologist and friendship expert Marissa Franco about how to make new friends as an adult and how to strengthen or rekindle old friendship ties. I hope you enjoy this episode from the archives. We'll be back with new episodes in a few weeks. When you were a kid, making friends might have seemed easy and natural.

在学校和游乐场里，你身边总是不乏潜在玩伴，友谊仿佛自然而然就产生了。大学可能又是另一个友谊轻易绽放的阶段。但对许多成年人而言，结交新友和维系旧谊变得更为困难。我们忙于工作、伴侣、育儿和其他成人责任，友谊往往被排在了生活优先事项的末位。为什么会这样？

You were surrounded by potential playmates at school and on the playground, and friendships just seemed to happen. And college may have been another situation where friendships easily blossomed. But for many adults, making new friends and maintaining old friendships is more difficult. We're all busy with work, our partners, child care and other grown up responsibilities, and friendships often end up taking a back seat to the other priorities in our lives. Why is that?

为什么成年后交友如此困难？为何我们不更重视友谊？若想结交新朋友，最佳方式是什么？如何巩固和重燃旧日情谊？成为好朋友的核心要素有哪些？又该如何判断哪些友谊值得投入精力维系？

Why is it so hard to make friends as an adult? And why don't we prioritize friendship more? If you want to make new friends, what's the best way to do it? What about strengthening and rekindling old friendship ties? What are the essential ingredients of being a good friend, and how do you know which friendships are worth the effort to maintain?

欢迎收听《心理学漫谈》——美国心理学会旗舰播客节目，探索心理科学与日常生活的联系。我是主持人金·米尔斯。今天的嘉宾是玛丽莎·佛朗哥博士，这位心理学家兼友谊专家正在撰写关于友谊的著作《柏拉图式》，预计今年晚些时候出版。

Welcome to Speaking of Psychology, the flagship podcast of the American Psychological Association that examines the links between psychological science and everyday life. I'm Kim Mills. Our guest today is Doctor. Marisa Franco, a psychologist and friendship expert who is working on a book about friendship called Platonic, due out later this year. Doctor.

佛朗哥博士是马里兰大学心理咨询副教授，曾任乔治亚州立大学心理学助理教授。她为《今日心理学》撰写友谊专栏，并接受过《科学美国人》《纽约时报》等多家媒体关于友谊主题的采访。感谢您今天参与节目，佛朗哥博士。

Franco is a counseling psychologist and an assistant clinical professor at the University of Maryland. She was previously an assistant professor of psychology at Georgia State University. She writes a blog on friendship for Psychology Today, and has written for or given interviews about friendship to many news outlets, including Scientific American and The New York Times, to name just a couple. Thank you for joining us today, Doctor. Franco.

很荣幸受邀，非常感谢您的邀请。

Happy to be here. Thank you so much for having me.

让我们从开场提出的问题开始：为什么随着年龄增长，交友似乎变得越发困难？是因为我们忙于成人责任，还是另有原因？

Let's start with a question I posed in the introduction. Why does it seem like it's so much harder to make friends as we get older? Is it that we're busy with adult responsibilities or is there more to it?

我认为关键在于我们所处的环境。社会学家指出，友谊自然形成需要几个要素：持续的非计划性互动和共同脆弱性。年轻时我们在学校、游乐场、课外俱乐部等场所天然具备这些条件。但成年后，我们很少处于能提供持续非计划性互动和共同脆弱性的环境。比如职场虽有持续接触，但职业规范常限制人们真实自我表露。

I think that it's the context that we're in. So sociologists have argued that there's a few ingredients that need to be at play for friendship to happen organically, and that's continuous unplanned interaction and shared vulnerability. And we have that when we're younger, you know, like at school, we're on the playground, we have recess, we have all these clubs. But as we move on into adulthood, we're not in a lot of environments that allow for continuous unplanned interaction and shared vulnerability. I mean, like work gives us continuous unplanned interaction, but often there's professionalism norms where people aren't actually sharing a lot about themselves.

这严重阻碍了深度连接。因此我认为，除非我们成年后主动寻找，否则很难再置身于具备友谊滋生条件的自然环境中。

And so that really impedes connection. And so I think it's just that we no longer find ourselves in the environments that have the right conditions for friendship unless we intentionally seek them out as adults.

是否存在某个特定年龄段，人们会特别明显地意识到交友变难了？

Is there an age when this becomes particularly apparent or some stage of life when people realize that it's gotten harder to make friends?

是的。我认为可以说这种情况往往从大学毕业后开始，那时你不再有那样的环境。但研究显示，人们在20岁出头到25岁左右时朋友最多，之后数量会逐渐减少。某种程度上这其实是好事。有个理论叫‘社会情绪选择假说’，它指出并发现随着年龄增长，我们更注重质量而非数量，因为我们会想，你知道，我剩下的时间有限了。

Yeah. I mean, would argue that it tends to start after college where you no longer have this that environment. But but what we see in the research is that people actually have the most friends in their young to mid 20s, and then it tends to taper out over time. Some of this is actually arguably good. There's a theory called the socio emotional selectivity hypothesis, which basically argues and finds that as we get older, we focus more on quality rather than quantity, because we're thinking, you know, I have X amount of time left.

我想把这些时间花在真正重要的人身上。而年轻时我们更关注扩展自我认同，所以会想着‘我要接触各种类型的人，他们会让我见识新事物’。因此自然趋势是我们的社交圈会随时间缩小，但我不确定这是因为交友变难了，还是我们也在有意为之。

I want to spend it with people that really matter. Whereas when we're younger, we're focused on expanding our sense of identity. So we're just like, I'm going to be open all different types of people who are going to show me new and different things. So just what tends to happen is that we shrink our circles over time, but I'm not exactly sure if that's because it's getting harder or because we're also doing so intentionally.

你在最近一篇文章中引用了一项研究，发现现代人平均朋友数量比过去少。过去几十年里，友谊网络似乎在萎缩。你认为原因是什么？这是个问题吗？

So in a recent article, you referenced a study that found that people on average have fewer friends than they used to. Friendship networks seem to have shrunk over the past several decades. Why do you think that's happening and is that a problem?

绝对是问题。疫情期间的研究显示（需注意这个背景），相比几十年前，现代人没有朋友的概率高出4-5倍。男性情况更糟——相比90年代初，无友男性数量增长了五倍，女性则是四倍。多项元分析（即整合多研究数据的分析）都发现我们的友谊网络正在持续缩小。

Absolutely. I mean, the recent research has found, and this was conducted in the pandemic, so that's a caveat, that compared to like decades ago, people are four to five times more likely to have no friends. And it's worse among men compared to, I think it was like a few decades ago, like early nineties. The amount of men that have no friends has has risen fivefold and fourfold for women. And so other meta analyses and meta analyses, just combined research amongst a bunch of different studies, have been finding that our friendship networks have been decreasing over time.

我认为这是场公共健康危机。科学证实孤独对身体的危害相当于每天抽15支烟。各种元分析表明，社交连接对我们的长寿影响甚至超过饮食和运动。作为社会性生物，友谊和连接对我们的健康至关重要，也是自我认同的核心——我们需要通过他人来探索‘我是谁’。

And I think that this is a crisis. It's a public health crisis because, you know, loneliness is as toxic for our bodies as smoking 15 cigarettes a day, the science finds. For our longevity, actually, our social connection matters more than even our diet and our exercise according to various meta analyses. And so having friends, having connection for us as social creatures, it's just central to our health and also just central to our sense of identity. For us to feel like ourselves, for us to be able to explore who we are.

我们常在他人身上发现自我的碎片，通过吸收这些碎片来获得充实感。因此当友谊衰退时，我们会看到更多健康问题，伴随社交不适或身份认同危机。

Often we find pieces of ourselves in other people and we begin to incorporate that and that's how we feel enriched and that's how we feel full. And so I think as our friendships start to decline, we're going to see more health issues alongside feelings of just like social unease or sort of like identity issues.

你在著作中提供了结交新朋友和维护友谊的建议。先说前者：对于那些刚搬到新城市感到孤独、举目无亲的人，你会给什么建议？

So in your writing, you offer advice for people about how to make new friends and how to maintain friendships. So let's start with the first. What do you advise people who really wanna make new friends? Say someone who's just moved to a new city and is feeling lonely, doesn't know anybody.

对于想结交新朋友的人，我建议主动出击。我们总误以为友谊会自然产生，所以不愿迈出第一步。但研究发现，认为交友不需努力的人反而更孤独，而那些愿意付出努力的人孤独感更低——因为他们确实去行动了。

Yeah. So for people to make new friends, I recommend initiating, right? We tend to rely on this myth that friendship happens organically so we don't put ourselves out there. But actually the science finds that people that see friendship as something that doesn't take effort are more lonely over time. Whereas those that see friendship as taking effort are less lonely and that's because they make the effort.

最大问题在于我们常自我设限：害怕被拒绝，担心‘如果我主动联系，对方可能不想理我’。但研究表明，这其实是我们普遍存在的认知偏差，并非事实。

I think the biggest problem is that we tend to be so self defeating. We tend to fear rejection. We tend to think that, you know, if I reach out, they won't want to talk to me. But in fact, that's a bias that we all have. That's not necessarily true according to the research.

有个关于‘好感度认知差距’的研究：让受试者互动后评估对方对自己的喜爱程度。结果发现人们普遍低估了自己被喜爱的程度，自我批判越强的人这种偏差越明显。因此我给想要主动交友者的建议是：先调整心态，假定别人喜欢你。这样迈出第一步时会轻松得多。

There's a study on a phenomenon called the lichen gap wherein the researchers had people interact and afterwards each person was asked, hey, how much do you like the person that you interacted with? And the study actually found that people underestimated how liked they were by the other person. And the more self critical people were, the more pronounced this bias was to underestimate how much people like them. And so my advice to people who are thinking about initiating a little bit more is to get into the right mindset, which was gonna require you to begin to assume that people like you. And then going out there and initiating with new people is gonna look a lot easier.

为了让这个建议更具实操性，具体该怎么做呢？简单来说，可以说这样一句话：嘿，我真的很享受和你的交谈。希望能保持联系，交换联系方式，之后继续跟进。

And just to make this super practical, what does this look like? Simply saying a line like, hey, I really enjoyed talking to you. I'd love to stay stay connected, exchanging contact information, following up from there.

所以我们只需要主动迈出第一步，真正承担风险并收获回报。

So we just have to put ourselves out there, really take the risk and reap the benefits.

没错。承担风险，收获回报，并相信会有回报。保持乐观态度，因为如果你自我否定，这就会变成自我应验的预言。

Yeah. Take the risk, reap the benefits, and believe that there will be benefits. Maintain your optimism because if you're self defeated, it's gonna become a a self fulfilling prophecy.

那么对于那些更关注维持和深化现有友谊而非结交新朋友的人呢？比如我们说的是一位全职工作的新手父母，发现旧日友谊正在逐渐疏远？对他们有什么建议？

So what about someone whose concern is more about maintaining and deepening friendships rather than making new ones? Maybe we're talking about a new parent who's working full time and finding that old friendships are falling by the wayside? What are some tips for them?

是的。你需要创造持续的、非计划性的互动机会。我建议在日历上安排每月一次与朋友聚会的固定时间，这样就不必每次都纠结何时能抽出时间。自动设定的聚会时间能确保你们保持联系。另外，我建议把'假设别人喜欢你'这个原则也应用到你想重燃的旧友谊上。

Yeah. So you want to create your own continuous unplanned interaction. So I would say schedule a monthly meeting on your calendar for you and your friend to catch up and put it there so that it's there and you don't have to, you know, figure out when can we find the time. It's there automatically so that you can find that time to connect. Other things that I would suggest is taking that assuming people like you and applying it to old friendships you want to rekindle too, right?

因为我们常常不联系老朋友是出于这样的想法：哦，他们可能不感兴趣了，他们有了新生活，他们太忙了。但换个角度想：他们很可能也想听到我的消息，可能也在惦记着我。这种心态能让你主动联系想维系的人。另一个建议是：随着我们越来越忙，维系友谊的一个方法是将朋友纳入你的个人目标。比如你想多散步，就找时间和朋友一起散步；或者你想健康饮食，就找时间和朋友一起做饭，这样能让友谊有个具体的依托。

Because often we don't reach out to these old friends because we're sort of like, oh, maybe they're not interested, they've moved on, they have all these other things going on in their life, they're too busy. But instead, hey, they're probably like wanting to hear from me and they're probably wondering about me too. And that being the mindset that can allow you to actually reach out to some people that you want to connect to. The other thing that I would say is as we become more busy, one way to keep friends is to incorporate friends in a goal that you would like to set for yourself. So maybe that's like, I wanna walk more and finding time to go on walk with friends or I wanna eat healthy and finding time to cook with friends because that gives you something to anchor your friendship around.

这给了你们互动的理由，也保证了互动的规律性。这对维持联系非常重要。

That gives you the excuse. That gives you the regularity of the interaction. That's really important for maintaining the connection.

那么接着这个问题，如何判断一段友谊值得投入这样的精力呢？这确实是个价值连城的问题。什么样的友谊才是好的友谊？

So to follow-up on that, how do you know that a friendship is worth investing that kind of effort in? I mean, it's this is really the $64,000 question. What makes for a good friendship?

是的。早期出现的互惠迹象就很有希望。比如你主动联系时，对方也会主动联系你。好朋友的重要特质是他们会为你的成功喝彩。当你分享好消息时，他们为你感到高兴吗？

Yeah. I mean, early signs of reciprocity are very promising. Like, you reach out and they're also reaching out to you. What's really important for friends is people that are rooting for your success. When you share good news, are they happy for you?

他们为你兴奋吗？研究发现，这一点比朋友在我们难过时是否出现更能预测我们对这段关系的满意度。所以这非常重要。我们需要的是关心我们、希望我们好的人。另外，我特别喜欢这个概念...

Are they excited for you? Research studies actually find that this predicts how satisfied we are in the relationship even more so than whether someone shows up for us when we're sad. So that's really important. We want someone who is looking out for us, wants the best for us. The other thing is, I really love this concept.

这被称为身份认同确认。意思是说我们会寻找那些支持我们成为想成为的人的朋友，而不是将他们认为我们应该成为的样子强加给我们，对吧？所以一个高度认同身份确认的人，如果我告诉他们，我想辞职去墨西哥参加一个密集的西班牙语课程，他们可能会想，天哪，我绝不会做这种事，太冒险了。

It's called identity affirmation. And that means we look for friends who support us in becoming the person that we wanna be rather than imposing who they think we should be on us, right? So someone who's high in identity affirmation, if I tell them, oh, I want to, you know, quit my job and take an intensive Spanish class in Mexico, right? They might think, oh my gosh, I would never do something like that. That's so risky.

但他们能理解这是我的价值观，对吧？这就是我喜欢的冒险精神。因此他们会说，我真为你高兴，我想支持你，因为我知道这符合你的目标。研究发现这实际上能预测长期友谊是否得以维持。

But they would understand that these are my values, right? That this is what I enjoy adventure. And so they would be able to say, I'm so happy for you. I want to support you because I understand that that aligns with your goals. And that's actually been found to predict whether best friendships maintain over time.

我们是否提供了这种身份认同确认？另一个非常重要的因素是换位思考。不健康的关系、有毒的关系往往在换位思考上出现了问题。我只考虑自己的需求，而不考虑你的需求。

Do we provide that identity affirmation? The other thing that's just really important is perspective taking. Unhealthy relationships, toxic relationships. Often there's a breakdown in perspective taking. I'm thinking about my needs, I'm not thinking about your needs.

举个例子，我在书中采访的一位女性在疫情期间生病了，她不确定是什么病。原本她应该和朋友一起去参加舞蹈比赛。她说，我去不了，我得了种怪病。

So just for an example, an interview that I did in my book, this woman got sick during the pandemic. She wasn't sure what it was. She was supposed to go to a dance contest with her friend. She says, I can't. I have this mysterious illness.

当时正值疫情期间。她的朋友却说，不敢相信你抛弃了我，你真是个糟糕的朋友。这位朋友显然只考虑了自己的需求——我希望朋友来参加舞蹈比赛，却完全没考虑朋友的处境。

It's a pandemic. Her friend says, I can't believe you abandoned me. You're a horrible friend. That friend clearly is only thinking about her needs. I want my friend to show up to this dance competition, but not thinking about her friend's needs at all.

所以在健康的关系中，我们要找到那些能平衡自身需求与他人需求的人，尝试协作，找到对双方都有利的解决方案。

And so healthy relationships, we wanna find people who balance their own needs and our needs and try to collaborate and figure out how to navigate things in a way that is a win win and suits both of us.

如今人们经常谈论'幽灵式断联'——有些人突然就消失了。你以为一切顺利，突然间他们就不回电话和短信了。怎么判断自己是被'幽灵式断联'了，是该放弃这段关系了？对方是不是在传递某种信号，只是没有直说'我不想再见到你'？

You know, there's a lot of talk these days about ghosting people who just sort of drop out. You thought things were going well and all of a sudden they're not returning your calls and texts. How how do you know when you've been ghosted and it's time to just give it up that this person is somehow giving you a signal but not a straightforward, I don't wanna see you anymore?

这确实很难判断，因为说实话，友谊比其他任何关系都更容易存在模糊地带。婚姻有正式契约维系，亲情有血缘纽带，但友谊的期待值往往不明确，需要不断摸索。面对'幽灵式断联'，我倾向于保持乐观态度。

So it's really hard because honestly, friendship more than any other relationship tends to be a relationship with so much ambiguity. And that's because, you know, in our in our marriage, we have this formal contract where we're connected. In our family, it's blood. But friendship, it's just you don't quite know what the expectations are and you're always just trying to figure it out. And so when it comes to ghosting, I like to maintain an air of optimism.

如果没收到回复，我会假设对方只是太忙，给予理解而不过度反应。这是个很好的初始假设。当你退一步纵观整个友谊时，要思考：这种不回应是否反映出对方对这段友谊缺乏投入或兴趣？我们一对一互动时对方的表现如何？是否愿意单独相处？

If I haven't heard back from someone, I like to assume they're busy and, you know, give them that grace and not take it as personally. And I think that's a good starting assumption. I think when you take a step back and look at the larger landscape of the friendship, is does this ghosting reflect a larger lack of investment or interest in the friendship, right? How are they showing up when we interact one on one? Are they willing to interact one on one?

他们愿意面对面交流吗？交流时是否表现出兴趣和专注？是否给予肯定？这些都是重要信息。而没回短信这件事，应该放在更全面的信息背景中考量。仅凭某人没回短信这一点，并不能说明他们想结束关系。

Are they willing to interact face to face? And do they seem interested, engaged? Do they affirming when they're interacting one on one? All of that is information and the sort of not responding to your text message should be a data point within the larger realm of information. The fact that someone didn't respond to your text message alone does not indicate that they're trying to go send you an or end the relationship.

因此我认为，我们需要退一步，更广泛地评估友谊的现状，试图弄清楚发生了什么。我想说的是，人们如此害怕友谊中的冲突，以至于他们宁愿直接结束这段关系，对吧？但科学实际上发现，当我们以开放、共情的方式讨论关系中的问题时，往往会体验到更深的亲密感。所以如果你一味回避冲突，实际上可能正在伤害你的友谊，因为很多人回避冲突是觉得‘这样更好’——‘我还是不提这件事了’。

So I just think it takes us taking a step back and evaluating the landscape of the friendship more broadly to try to figure out what's going on. And I say, like, people are so afraid of conflict and friendship to the extent that they'd rather just end the friendship, right? But actually the science finds that when we have open empathic discussion of issues in our relationships, we tend to experience more intimacy. And so if you're just avoiding conflict, you might actually be harming your friendships, actually, because I think a lot of people avoid it because they think, oh, it's better this way. You know, I'm not gonna bring this up.

‘我不想制造紧张气氛’——但紧张已经存在了。问题在于你们能否共同化解并拥有这个机会。所以当有人突然疏远你而你不知所措时，我建议主动开启对话：‘嘿，最近没收到你的回复，不确定是否发生了什么事。如果是的话，我很欢迎你提出任何顾虑，我随时愿意倾听。’

I'm not gonna cause all this tension, but the tension is already there. The question is whether you can work through it and have that opportunity or not. And so that's another thing. If someone's ghosting on you and you're not sure, I would just invite a conversation like, hey, I haven't heard back from you. Not sure if that's because something might be going on, but if so, I just wanted to welcome you to bring up any concerns that you have because I'm here to listen.

说到底，这其实是要你主动敞开心扉，承担一点风险，并期待得到善意的回应。

So again, I mean, it's really about putting yourself out there and taking a little bit of risk and hoping that you get a good answer.

完全正确。人际连接就是这样矛盾的存在——既是我们觉得最有风险的事，又是最能滋养我们、最重要的事。它既令人胆战心惊，又美妙绝伦。

Absolutely. I mean, connection is this sort of schism of being the most risky thing we feel like we can engage in, but also the most nurturing and important thing we can engage in. It's both petrifying and gorgeous at the same time.

我想回到你之前提到的男女友谊差异问题，特别是关于男性的部分，那些话让我感到非常非常难过。主流媒体常有文章说女性更擅长建立和维持友谊，有研究支持这种说法吗？

So I want to go back to something that you were talking about a little while ago, the the differences between men and women and friendships. And and especially what you were saying about men, which was struck me as being very very sad. I've seen articles in mainstream media that talk about how women are better at making friends and maintaining those friendships. Is there research that backs that up?

是的。研究发现男性在友谊中往往更少展现脆弱。而科学表明，人们越能脆弱地自我表露，就越受欢迎，他人也会感觉更亲近。虽然我们可能担心脆弱性带来的潜在风险——比如‘别人会利用这点伤害我’，但科学研究显示，更可能的结果是这反而会巩固联结，拉近彼此距离。

Yeah. Well, there is science that finds that men just tend to be less vulnerable in their friendships. And vulnerability we find in the science, the more people disclose vulnerably about themselves, the more liked they are. And people feel more connected to people that disclose vulnerably. And so while we may fear vulnerability or its potential liabilities, like, oh, someone can use this against me and exploit me, in fact, the more likely outcome, according to the science, is that it's gonna cement the connection and bring us closer.

所以我认为，男性友谊问题很多时候实质是伪装下的脆弱性问题。《大西洋月刊》有篇有趣的文章指出，男性友谊往往需要‘第三方客体’——比如一起看比赛、做运动。这其实是通过共同关注点来回避情感暴露。

And so I think a lot of the times men's friendship issues are actually vulnerability issues in disguise. There was this really interesting Atlantic article that talked about how men often need a third object in their friendships. They're watching the game together. You know, they're playing a sport together. And that is a way to avoid vulnerability by having a third object to focus on.

但代价是损害了友谊深度。此外还必须提到‘同性恋恐慌’现象——男性害怕被当作同性恋。这导致他们不敢进行建立联结的必要行为，因为可能被误解。我甚至听过男性说：‘都不敢主动约其他男性，怕对方以为我对他是性趣。’

But again, to the great detriment of the friendship. But I also have to point out there's this phenomenon called homo hysteria, which is men's fear of being perceived as gay. And so what that does to men is they feel like they can't do all of the behaviors necessary for connection because that might come off as gay. And so I've I've even heard men say, can't even initiate with another guy. I can't say, hey, I'd love to hang out because he might think I'm interested in him, like, sexually.

由于我们把任何示好或亲密信号都等同于性暗示，这让男性陷入两难——‘我根本不能发展这段关系，否则会被当成性邀约’，结果导致他们陷入深度孤独。

And so because of this this way that we conflate absolutely any sign of interest or affection with some sort of sexual interest, that leaves men in a real bind where they feel like, oh, I can't engage in this relationship at all because then it's gonna be perceived as sexual, but then they're left really lonely.

那男女之间的柏拉图式友谊呢？男性在这方面是否更容易主动建立或维系？

What about platonic friendships between men and women? Are those any easier for men to initiate, navigate?

男女之间的柏拉图式友谊。嗯，我的意思是，这里存在一个明显的难题，即取决于双方是否都是异性恋，可能会产生性吸引力。关于这一点有些有趣的科学研究，实际上女性往往觉得与女性朋友的关系比男性与男性朋友更亲密。但男性要么觉得与女性朋友比与男性朋友更亲近，要么觉得亲密程度相当。所以男性实际上并未报告说与男性朋友的关系像与女性朋友那样亲密，因为他们通常通过与女性的友谊能展现更多脆弱性。

Platonic friendships between men and women. Well, I mean, there is the difficulty of, obviously, sexual interest depending on if both parties are heterosexual. There's some interesting science on this that actually women tend to feel closer to their woman friends than men friend their male friends. But men actually either feel closer to their woman friends than their male friends or feel equally as close. So men actually aren't reporting feeling as close to their male friends compared to the the woman friends that they have because often men access more vulnerability through their friendships with women.

因此我认为这确实是个值得探讨的现象。我们常谈论男性被发'好人卡'，但根据科学研究，这应该是一种荣誉，因为男性与女性的友谊往往是最珍贵的——因为当男性与女性而非男性建立友谊时，他们能够展现那种脆弱性。不过话说回来，男性与男性朋友相处时，会比与女性相处时获得更多轻松感和自在感。

And so I think that's a real, you know, we talk about men being put into the friend zone when I'm like, you know, according to the science, that should be an honor because men's friendships with women are some of the best friendships that they have because that what tends to look different when men become friends with men versus women is that they are able to access that vulnerability. That being said, when men are friends with friends with men, they access more ease and a more of a sense of relaxation than they might access around women.

让我们转换话题，聊聊过去两年。疫情初期，人们大量讨论如何在社交隔离期间维持友谊，我们都习惯了Zoom欢乐时光和线上游戏之夜这些形式。回顾过去，你认为疫情会长期影响人们的友谊纽带吗？我们现在能确定吗？

Let's switch gears and and talk a little bit about the past two years. At the beginning of the pandemic, there was a lot of talk about how to maintain friendships during social distancing, and we all got used to things like Zoom happy hours and online game nights. Looking back, do you think the pandemic will affect people's friendship ties in a long term way? Do do we even know yet?

这方面的研究结果其实好坏参半。一方面疫情加剧了孤独感，但另一方面我们又似乎没那么孤独。我认为部分原因在于我们不得不接受一个事实：必须主动经营友谊。不能只是被动参与，依赖每月一次的聚餐聚会。这场疫情让我们更清楚地认识到，要维系友谊就需要主动出击——这种能力非常重要，我真心希望我们能将其延续到未来。

You know, the research here has actually been mixed, in finding that, you know, the pandemic has promoted loneliness, but then we sort of haven't been lonely, have been less lonely. And I think part of that is we've kind of had to reconcile with the fact that we need to initiate with friendships. We can't just passively engage in our friendships and rely on, you know, I'm just going to rely on us meeting up every month at the potluck that someone runs. We've learned, I think a little more in this pandemic that we actually have to initiate to keep our friendships. And that is such an important skill that I really hope that we can take into the future.

如果我们能真正内化这一点，长远来看会让友谊更牢固。我担心的是那些长期孤独的人——科学表明孤独不仅是种感受，更是种世界观。孤独者往往会更不喜欢他们接触的人：他们对室友评价更低，对人性评价更低。

And if we can really internalize that, then it can really make our friendships better in the long run. The thing that I am worried about is for those of us that have been chronically lonely, you know, we know from the science that loneliness is not just a feeling, it's a way of seeing the world. Lonely people actually tend to dislike people they interact with. They report liking their roommate less. They report liking humanity less.

他们报告称更不喜欢接触对象，更容易误判他人会拒绝自己。这是因为从进化角度看，孤独意味着被部落抛弃，处于危险中。所以孤独时我们的危险警报会持续作响，这种机制反而使我们更难摆脱孤独。

They report liking people they interact with less. They report assuming people are going to reject them when they not aren't actually. And that's because, you know, when we were lonely, historically, we were separated from our tribe. So we were in danger. And so our sort of danger signals are just going off when we're lonely in ways that make it hard to come out of loneliness.

因为当你想'没人想联系我，我也不想联系他们'时，你其实在贬低联结的价值，尽管内心又渴望联结。孤独让人陷入矛盾：既想与人隔绝又想建立联系。这种撕裂状态使得深陷孤独时难以自拔。但我始终相信可能性存在，我们必须保持乐观。

Because, you know, if you're thinking nobody wants to hear from me and I don't really want to hear from them, I'm devaluing the value of connection even while I want it at the same time. I'm pulled in two different directions when I'm lonely. People report wanting to withdraw from people and wanting to connect at the same time. So it just makes it very hard to get out of loneliness when it's really, really entrenched. But I always believe that it's possible and I think we need to maintain our optimism.

我常这样告诉人们：当你孤独时，要提醒自己'不是我真的不喜欢这个朋友，也不是他们在拒绝我，可能只是孤独感在扭曲我当下的判断'。

And I I tell people that so that they can remind themselves when you're lonely, oh, it's not that I actually don't like this friend. It's not that they're actually rejecting me. It might just be because I'm lonely and that's shaping how I'm interpreting events right now.

对很多人来说，职场是成年后交友的重要场所。但远程和混合办公模式改变了许多人的社交动态。这对职场新人（比如第一份工作的年轻人）和远程入职的资深员工都特别具有挑战性。你最近写过远程工作中建立职场友谊的方法，有哪些建议？

So for a lot of us, work provides an opportunity for making friends as an adult. But now with remote and hybrid work, that's changed the dynamic for a lot of people. It's got to be especially tough for young adults, say, their first or second job, as well as more seasoned employees who might be starting a new position remotely, let's say. You recently wrote about ways to make work friends even while working remotely. What did you recommend?

我建议在虚拟环境中建立持续的非计划性互动。比如和同事约定每月固定视频会议。有些线下职场社交策略同样适用，比如互相肯定——根据'好感互惠理论'，人们倾向于喜欢那些喜欢自己的人。当我们向同事表达欣赏时，自然能促进联结。

So I recommend setting up continuous unplanned interaction virtually. So when I stopped seeing my work friends, just set up a monthly meeting on our calendars for us to interact. It's some of the same strategies that we use in person that can apply in the workplace too, like simply affirming each other. We don't realize that according to the theory of inferred attraction, people tend to like people who like them. And so if we can show people that we like them, they're going to want to connect with us.

所以我想说，你知道，我重视你、感激你、想念你，这些都是巩固和维系关系的表达。同样地，我们需要主动建立联系，哪怕是虚拟的。具体怎么做呢？比如，我是职场新人，一直想结识新朋友。

And so just saying, you know, I value you, I appreciate you, I miss you, these are all things that cement and maintain the connection. Similarly, we need to initiate even virtually to make those connections. What does that look like? You know, hey, I'm the new person at work. I've been wanting to meet new people.

我在想你是否愿意和我建立联系？或者，我们好久没聊了，要不要约个时间？我很想了解你的近况。职场连接的科学很有趣，研究发现人际互动越多，关系就越亲密，但在职场却恰恰相反。

I was wondering if you'd be open to connecting. Or hey, you know, we haven't chatted in a while. Do you mind if we put something on the schedule? I'd love to hear about you and check-in about how you've been. The science of connecting at work is really interesting because studies actually find that the more we interact with people, the closer we tend to feel, but at work, it's the opposite.

我认为这是因为我们很少在工作中展现脆弱。我们总是以单一维度与他人互动。所以我鼓励大家多些脆弱表达，比如'你最近怎么样'，开些玩笑——那些你平时在职场上犹豫要不要做的事。

And I think that that's actually because we don't often share vulnerably at work. And so there's this way that we only interact with a single dimension of each other all the time. So I just also encourage a little bit more vulnerability. Like, how are you doing? Cracking jokes, things that you sometimes feel iffy about doing in a work environment.

我知道人们害怕这些会成为把柄，这种恐惧真实存在。但有很多安全的自我披露方式，比如分享成就、爱好、周末计划等。稍微多展现真实的自己就能建立连接。最后我想说，有种'员工神话'的谬误，认为工作时我们就只是员工，不再有归属感等基本人性需求。这完全错误。职场连接关乎工作投入度、效率、创造力、团队成功率和留任意愿。事实上，缺乏归属感是去年员工离职的第三大原因。你建立连接的能力将深刻影响工作幸福感与满足感。

There's just, I know people are scared things can be used against me and that fear is real, but there's just so many things that you can disclose about yourself that are safe, like your wins or your accomplishments or your hobbies or your weekend plans, just feeling free to share a little bit more about yourself to create that connection. And the last thing that I wanted to say is there's this idea that I call the employee myth, which is the idea that when we go to work, we simply become employees and we no longer have fundamental human needs, like the need to belong, And it's simply untrue. Having connection at work is related to your engagement, your productivity, your creativity, how much teams can succeed, how likely you are to stay in the job. In fact, not belonging is the third reason that people have reported quitting their job within the last year. And so it's your your ability to create connections is gonna have a powerful effect on whether you feel happy and satisfied and fulfilled in your work.

这绝对值得付出努力。

So it really is worth it.

你曾写过跨种族友谊，引用研究发现与异族群体接触越多，偏见就越少。能否谈谈这个现象，并给些建立跨种族友谊的建议？

You've also written about cross racial friendship and cited research that found that the more contact people have with others outside of their racial group, the less prejudiced they were. Can you talk about that and maybe offer some advice about building friendships across racial lines.

跨群体接触确实是消除偏见最有效的方式之一，但前提必须是高质量互动。有研究发现参加职场活动会让人感觉更亲近同事——但跨种族互动时却不成立。因为跨种族交流往往停留在工作层面，而非真正建立连接。

So contact with people across groups is actually found to be one of the most powerful ways that we found to combat prejudice, but with the caveat that this has to be quality interaction. And there's this study that actually found that when people tend to attend work events, they tend to feel closer to people at work. But this isn't true when people are interacting with people across races. And that's because when people interacted across races, they weren't having as much quality conversation. They were engaged in the conversation more so to get ahead work wise rather than to actually connect with each other.

我们需要更多包含共同脆弱感和实质性内容的交流。跨种族交往时，我建议保持'习惯性开放心态'——抛开所有刻板印象和预设。有时我们过度强调共同点想拉近距离，反而让对方感到被标签化。比如不要一见面就说'我也过某个根据你身份推测的节日'。

And so we need to have those more quality interactions where there's shared vulnerability and we're talking about things of substance. But what I really suggest when you're connecting across race is to maintain something called habitual open mindedness, which basically means put all your stereotypes and preconceptions aside, right? I think sometimes we try to over identify with people across races to make them feel like, oh, we know them, but then they actually end up feeling really stereotyped. And so don't do that. You know, don't try to approach someone and say, yeah, I I also celebrate this holiday that I assume that you might celebrate based on your identity.

放下这些预设，让对方自然地展现真实的自己。

You know, just leave that aside and let them show themselves to you and reveal themselves to you as a person. Let them show you who they really are.

还有个当下话题：近年政治两极分化正撕裂亲友关系。人们可能迫于压力维持与政见相左家人的关系。你认为能否与立场激烈冲突的朋友保持亲密关系？

One more current topic that I wanted to talk about. There's been a discussion in the past few years about how political polarization is straining family and friendship ties. People might feel pressure to maintain a relationship with a family member they disagree with politically. Do you think it's possible to maintain close relationships with friends we disagree with very, very vehemently?

我确实认为这是可能的。当人们在考虑是否要维持这些关系时，我建议他们退一步思考这段关系的整体利弊，明白吗？这意味着，当你决定是否与一个价值观可能与你大相径庭的新朋友保持友谊——这种差异可能体现在他们的政治信仰上——或者与一个交往已久、能带给你多种益处（比如共同回忆和共享经历）的老友相处时，需要采用不同的权衡标准。你需要冷静评估：虽然这个人可能在某个方面与我的价值观不同，但这段友谊能给我带来什么？如何平衡这两方面？因为所有友谊的收益都应该大于损耗。

I do think it's possible. What I suggest to people when they're figuring out whether to maintain these relationships is to step back and consider the larger pros and cons of the relationship, right? And so what that means is there's going to be a different calculus when you're deciding whether to be friends with a new friend who maybe has very different values than you that are expressed in their political beliefs versus a friend you've had forever, who's providing you with a lot of different benefits just because you can reminisce and you have these shared experiences together, right? And so you just have to take a step back and think about this person may have different values than me in this way, but what are the things that I also get out of this friendship and how do I weigh those two things together? Because all of our friendships should be more good than that.

话虽如此，有些人可能会说：'知道吗？价值观和政治立场的差异对我来说弊大于利，这是我非常看重的负面影响，任何好处都无法抵消。'我认为每个人都需要建立自己的评判体系。

That being said, there are people who might be like, you know what? Having different values, having different politics is too much of a con for me. That's something that I weigh heavily as a con. And I don't think there's an amount of pros that could counteract that. And I say, you know, we all need to develop our own system.

我们都需要通过自我反思来理解自己的需求、价值观、愿意妥协和不能妥协的底线。根据种族认同理论，经历过歧视的有色人种往往会进入一个'冬眠期'，只愿意与自己群体的人交往。研究表明，有时我们需要为安全考虑而暂时疏离，但这种状态通常不会永久持续。当涉及像政治立场这种与身份认同紧密相连的分歧时，我们可能需要阶段性保持距离，但未来仍可能重建关系。因此在跨越差异建立友谊时，我们应该预期关系会有更多波动。

We all need to go through our own self reflective process to understand what our needs are and what our values are and what we are willing to compromise on and what we're not. That being said, you know, I know from theories of racial identity that people of color who tend to go through experiences of discrimination then tend to go through a hibernation period where they only want to interact with people from their group. And so what that research sort of suggests is there can be times when we feel like we need to hibernate for our own safety, but that also doesn't necessarily last forever. And so we need to also expect that sometimes when we have these differences and things that feel so so valuable to us and that feel like they're part of our identities, like politics tend to be, that sometimes there'll be periods where we might need some space, but we might be able to reengage in the relationship over time. So I think too, when we're making friends across difference, we should expect that there's going to be a little bit more ebb and flow.

你在撰写这本书并研究友谊相关文献时，是否发现某些研究结论令人意外？或者有哪些领域你认为'天啊，我们真的需要更深入研究这个'？

So as you're working on the book and you're reading all the research into friendship, are you finding areas where either the research is surprising, that the results are surprising, or that there are areas where you think, boy, we really need to know more about this.

确实。研究友谊最让我惊讶的发现是：亲密关系的本质是相通的。这意味着维系浪漫关系的要素同样适用于友谊——对他人的肯定、共情式解决冲突、展现脆弱性等。但问题在于，我们往往把这些技巧局限在爱情关系里。

Yeah. I mean, the surprising thing I've learned since studying friendship is that a relationship is a relationship, right? And what that means is what makes our romantic relationship succeed makes our friendship succeed. Affirmation of another person, working through conflict empathically, vulnerability, right? But the problem is I think we tend to compartmentalize a lot of these skills to our romantic relationships.

人们习惯于在爱情关系中解决问题，否则关系就会终结，却不会将这些技巧迁移到友谊中。我想强调的是：请思考可迁移的技能。你从婚姻中学到的哪些技巧可以同样提升友谊？另外，关于我们之前讨论的'好感度认知偏差'——人们总低估他人对自己的喜爱程度...

People are so used to working through issues in their romantic relationships because if they weren't, their relationship would end, and yet they don't transfer those skills to their friendships, right? And so that's what I want to share. Think about transferable skills. What are skills you've developed from your marriage that you can bring into your friendship to make it better in that same way? And the other thing that I would say is that, you know how I talked about our the liking gap and our bias to assume people like us less than we do?

这种现象在所有亲密关系中都存在。'美丽混乱效应'研究表明：当我们展现脆弱时，会高估他人对我们的负面评价。关于友谊中情感表达的研究也发现，我们总认为表达情感会更尴尬、对方会更不领情，但事实恰恰相反。因此在人际连接中，我们必须觉察这些自我挫败的想法，认识到认知偏差的存在，保持乐观——相信别人喜欢我们、愿意与我们互动、会珍视我们的付出和这段友谊。

That's true across the board with all different types of of intimacy. There's this phenomenon called the beautiful mess effect, which finds that when we are vulnerable, we think people are judging us more than they actually are. There are studies on affection in friendship that finds that when we share affection, we assume that people will think it's more awkward and be less grateful than they actually are. And so when it comes to connecting, I should say we really need to tune in to our self defeating thoughts and recognize that we may have some biases involved and to maintain optimism, to assume that people like us, that they wanna connect with us, that they're gonna enjoy the interaction, that they're gonna value the things that we do and value the things that we've invested into the friendship.

Franco博士，你关于如何结交和维护友谊的建议非常宝贵。特别是在疫情导致人际疏离的当下，希望听众们能从中受益。请大家务必保持这些联结。

Doctor Franco, I think you have given us some really good advice about how to be friends, get friends, maintain friends. Thank you so much. And I hope our our listeners really get something out of this, particularly during the pandemic where it's been such a a strain. So keep those connections, gang.

完全同意。非常感谢邀请。如果想与我保持联系，可以在Twitter或Instagram关注@doctormarissagfranco。我的网站www.doctormercygfranco.com上有友谊优劣势评估工具。我还在职场内外开展关于友谊与归属感的演讲。再次感谢你们的时间。

Absolutely. Thank you so much for having me. And if you wanna stay connected with me, you can, follow me on Twitter on in or Instagram at doctormarissagfranco.com. I also have a assessment for your friendship strengths and weaknesses on my website, www.doctormercygfranco.com, and I speak on friendship and belonging within and outside the workplace. Thank you so much for your time.

往期《心理学漫谈》节目可在官网www.speakingofpsychology.org或Apple、Stitcher、Spotify等播客平台收听。苹果用户如果喜欢请留下好评。如有节目建议请发邮件至speakingofpsychologyapa.org。本节目由Lee Weinerman制作，音效编辑Chris Condion。

You can find previous episodes of Speaking of Psychology on our website at www.speakingofpsychology.org or on Apple, Stitcher, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. And if you're listening to us on Apple and you like what you hear, please leave a review. If you have comments or ideas for future podcasts, you can email us at speakingofpsychologyapa dot org. Speaking of Psychology is produced by Lee Weinerman. Our sound editor is Chris Condion.

感谢您的收听。代表美国心理学会，我是金·米尔斯。

Thank you for listening. For the American Psychological Association, I'm Kim Mills.