我们为何热爱旅行，与Andrew Stevenson博士一起探讨

你是否在梦想着下一次度假？如果是的话，你并不孤单。对许多美国人来说，旅行越来越被视为必需品而非奢侈品。根据Investopedia的2025年美国梦研究，75%的千禧一代认为年度假期是他们美国梦版本的关键部分，甚至超过了拥有房产等传统里程碑。对我们许多人来说，旅行是逃离日常、探索新地方，甚至可能重新发现自我的机会。

Are you dreaming about your next vacation? If so, you're not alone. For many Americans, travel is increasingly viewed not as a luxury, but as a necessity. According to Investopedia's 2025 American Dream Study, seventy 5% of millennials consider annual vacations a key part of their version of the American dream, even more than traditional milestones like homeownership. For many of us, travel is a chance to escape our routines, explore new places, and maybe even find ourselves.

但旅行真的能改变我们吗？如果能，又是如何改变的？遇到陌生环境如何影响我们的思维方式？旅行能让我们更快乐或提升幸福感吗？科技和社交媒体如何改变旅行体验？

But does travel really change us? And if so, how? How does encountering unfamiliar environments affect the way we think? Does travel make us happier or improve our well-being? How are technology and social media changing the experience of travel?

如果你想旅行但没有预算或时间，是否可以通过以旅行者的心态探索居住地来获得部分旅行益处？欢迎收听《心理学漫谈》，这是美国心理学会的旗舰播客节目，探讨心理科学与日常生活的联系。我是金·米尔斯。今天的嘉宾是英国曼彻斯特城市大学心理学高级讲师安德鲁·史蒂文森博士。

And if you want to travel but don't have the budget or time, is it possible to gain some of the benefits of travel by approaching the place where you live with a travel mindset. Welcome to Speaking of Psychology, the flagship podcast of the American Psychological Association that examines the links between psychological science and everyday life. I'm Kim Mills. My guest today is Doctor. Andrew Stevenson, a senior lecturer in psychology at Manchester Metropolitan University in The UK.

他是一位文化心理学家，研究空间和地方如何影响我们的感受、思维和行为。他是2023年出版的《旅行心理学》一书的作者，其关于旅行心理学的观点被《华盛顿邮报》、BBC、《今日美国》等媒体广泛引用。史蒂文森博士，感谢您今天参加节目。

He's a cultural psychologist who is interested in the way that space and places affect the way that we feel, think and act. He is author of the 2023 book The Psychology of Travel and has been quoted widely on the psychology of travel by media including the Washington Post, the BBC, USA Today, and others. Doctor. Stevenson, thank you for joining me today.

你好，非常感谢邀请。很高兴来到这里，我期待能就心理学和旅行展开一场有趣的对话。

Hello, and thanks very much for having me. It's a pleasure to be here and I'm looking forward to having an interesting conversation about psychology and travel.

当然。让我们从一个大问题开始。很多人说旅行能改变你或拓宽你对生活的看法。从心理学角度来看，这是真的吗？旅行能改变我们吗？

Absolutely. So let's start with a big question. A lot of people talk about travel as something that changes you or broadens your perspective on life. Through the lens of psychology, is that true? Does travel change us?

如果能，又是如何改变的？

And if it does, how?

我认为旅行是一种具有变革性的活动，首先需要说明的是它并非人人皆可参与。即便在美国，也只有约50%的人口持有护照。若考虑到其他平均收入较低的国家，旅行更是少数幸运者的特权。但我们需要思考旅行的定义——它不一定指国际旅行。从村庄间漫步到与环境的互动，无论是本地、国内还是国际，这些经历都必将影响个人成长。

Well I think travel is a transformative activity and it should first perhaps be said that it's not a universal activity because I think even in The United States only about 50% of the population have passports but if you think about other nations maybe nations with, less average income, travel is quite a privilege for a few lucky people. But we should think about what we mean by travel and it doesn't just necessarily mean international travel. Travel can involve going for a walk from one village to another and I think any kind of engagement with your environment whether it's local, national or international, is definitely going to influence you as a person.

让我们谈谈旅行中的心理健康与幸福感。有时人们出游只为放松充电。通常人们度假归来时是否比出发时更快乐、状态更好呢？

Let's talk about mental health and well-being as aspects of travel. Sometimes you just wanna go on a trip to relax and recharge. Do people usually come back from vacations happier, better adjusted than when they left?

关于幸福感与旅行的关系已有大量研究。这种关系相当复杂，但大体可分为两种旅行心态：享乐型旅行（追求愉悦）和实现型幸福感（追求自我提升）。日常英语中hedonistic即指追求享乐，这类旅行者主要寻求阳光海滩的快乐时光。

The relationship between happiness and well-being and travel has been quite, well researched. It's quite a complex relationship but I think we can broadly say that there are two types of travel mindset that people engage in when they're travelling. One of them is called hedonistic travel or hedonistic well-being and the other one is named eudaimonic well-being. Now in everyday English, hedonistic means pleasure seeking, doesn't it? So a hedonist is somebody who travels for fun and sun and sea and just basically having a great time.

另一种实现型幸福感（eudaimonic）大致意味着自我提升，通过旅行挑战自我。这是人们追求的两种不同幸福。但将人简单归类可能欠妥，因为实际旅程中，我们可能上午享受享乐时光，下午就参加墨西哥烹饪课或参观美术馆追求自我提升。这两种旅行方式可以灵活切换，但确实会产生不同影响。

And the other type of, well-being, eudaimonic means roughly speaking self improvement, travel to improve yourself and maybe even challenge yourself. And so those are two different types of happiness that many people are chasing. I think though it's probably a mistake to pigeonhole people and put them into one or two categories because I think anyone who's traveled probably knows that on a typical trip you may have a few hours of hedonistic enjoyment and then the day after you might focus on something a little bit more to self improvement, maybe going on a cookery course in Mexico or visiting an art gallery. So I think we can channel hop between these two types of travel, but they do have different consequences I think.

多数人旅行确实寻求幸福感提升，且通常能感受到。但这种提升能持续多久？我总感觉登机返程时快乐就消失了。这是个人现象还是普遍情况？

I think most of us when we take trips, we're looking for some kind of a boost to our well-being and we usually feel that. But how long does a boost like that typically last? I always feel once I've gotten on the plane to go home that somehow happy gets sucked out of me. Is it just me or does it last longer for most people?

这并非你独有。今早我刚听播客谈到所谓的'假期后综合征'。影响程度的因素很多，有趣的是研究表明实现型旅行（即自我提升型）的持续效应...

I don't think it's just you. Think there is this syndrome called the post vacation syndrome that people talk about. I was listening to a podcast about this this morning actually. But I think there are lots of factors which might influence how much you experience that. There is some research interestingly enough to suggest that the lasting effect of eudaimonic travel, I.

比享乐型旅行更持久，后者的快乐消散更快。另一个影响因素是'差异模型'——预期与实际的落差。往往那些期待值不高的旅程反而最美好。有时我们给自己太大压力，总想着'这必须是一生难忘的旅行'、'这是愿望清单项目'。

E. Travel for self improvement can be a little bit longer than the lasting effect of hedonistic travel whose effects might evaporate a bit more quickly but I think we may accept that. The other factor which might influence how long lasting the effect of travel on us is, is the so called discrepancy model which looks at the perceived gap between how good we expected a trip to be and how good it actually was. Some of the best trips or the best vacations are the ones that you didn't have such high expectations of And I think sometimes we put so much pressure on ourselves and say to ourselves, this is gonna be the trip of a lifetime. It's on my bucket list.

而这些有时会让我们失望。因此我认为差异模型在这方面也能给我们一些启示。

And those are the ones that can sometimes disappoint us. So I think the discrepancy model has got something to offer us there as well.

那么旅行和旅游之间有什么区别吗？

Now is there a difference between travel and tourism?

很高兴你问这个问题。我这里有一句美国小说家保罗·鲍尔斯的精彩引述，他写过一本著名小说《遮蔽的天空》，讲述二十世纪末他在北非的旅行经历。他这样区分旅行者和游客：游客通常在几周或几个月后匆忙返家，而旅行者不属于任何地方，他们用数年时间在地球上缓慢迁徙。换句话说，旅游通常具有回旋镖效应。

I'm glad you asked me that. I've got a lovely quote here from the American novelist Paul Bowles, who wrote a famous novel called The Shelter in Sky about his travels in North Africa at the end of the twentieth century. Here he talks about the difference between a traveler and a tourist. He says as follows, whereas a tourist generally hurries back home at the end of a few weeks or months, a traveler belongs no more to one place than to the next, moving slowly over periods of years from one part of the earth to another. In other words, tourism is usually something which has a kind of boomerang effect.

这是我们购买的一种商品，通常包含往返票。而旅行则更具开放性，我们甚至不确定何时结束，它往往持续时间更长，路线更迂回。所以我认为二者虽有区别但也存在关联。

It's a commodity that we buy that involves usually a return ticket and travel can be something a little bit more open ended and we're not entirely sure when it's going to end and it's quite likely that it will last a little bit longer and meander a little bit more. So I think they are different but obviously related.

旅行真的能让人更开明，减少对异文化人群或说不同语言者的偏见吗？

Does travel actually make people more open minded and less likely to be biased against people who are different, especially those who come from a different culture or who speak another language?

这是个有趣的问题。关于开明心态有个老生常谈的说法是旅行能开阔眼界，但这比听起来复杂得多。快速回到旅行与旅游的话题，有句有趣的引述说：'旅行者是我们对自己的称呼，游客则是我们对别人的称呼'，这让我觉得挺有意思。

That's an interesting question. The question of being open minded. There is a cliche which says that travel broadens the mind of course, and that's a bit more complex than it sounds. Going back to the idea of travel and tourism very quickly, the amusing quote about that is that somebody once said that a traveler is what we call ourselves and a tourist is what we call other people. So that kind of amused me a little bit.

回到旅行开阔眼界的问题，我认为它确实具有这种潜力。但社会心理学家提出过一个迷人的类型学，研究人们旅行时的不同心态。想象一个连续谱，一端是（姑且称为）跟团旅游——这种极为流行的模式中，我们虽身处异国，却始终与同文化伙伴为伴，由导游全程陪同，很少进行真正冒险，或许可称之为保守型旅行。

But going back to the question of travel broadening the mind, clearly I think it does have the potential to do that but there is a fascinating typology that some social psychologists came up with looking at the different types of travelers or the different types of mindsets people have when they travel. Imagine a continuum, okay, and at one end you've got let's call it package tourism for the lack of a better phrase. So these are trips which are extremely popular. This is a mode of travel where we often visit geographically different places but within a bubble of companions from the same culture as us and we often are accompanied everywhere by a tour guide and so we don't get into too many, intrepid adventures or scrapes. So that you might call, you might want to call that conservative travel.

在这个连续体的另一端，你会遇到所谓的'探索者'或'归属寻求者'，他们通常独自旅行，更倾向于参观当地居民的住宅或生活场景。如果你是保守型旅行者或依赖型游客，则只会关注酒店和旅游景点。当然，这个论点缺失的一环是——我认为保守型旅行不太能开阔视野，但你可能觉得它更安全，因为有些人在旅行时会感到脆弱。这并不是对这种旅行方式的批评，它之所以流行也绝非偶然，毕竟人们都希望感到安全，特别是新冠疫情后，旅行泡泡和保守型旅行重新兴起——毕竟有段时间我们完全无法出行。讽刺的是，我写《旅行心理学》这本书时，整整两年都没能旅行。

At the other end of this continuum you've got what you might call the explorers or belonging seekers who typically travel independently and are a lot more likely to for example visit the houses or domestic scenes of the people in the towns and cities where they're visiting. If you're a conservative traveler or a dependent you're going to really only investigate the hotels and the tourist spots. Now of course, the missing link to this argument is that, I think the conservative travel is less likely to broaden the mind but you might regard it as being quite a lot safer because some people might feel a bit more vulnerable when they're travelling. So it's not a criticism of that mode of travel and there's no coincidence that it is very popular because people do want to feel safe and especially since COVID a few years ago I think there has been a re emergence of the kind of traveling bubbles and the conservative travel because for a while or so we weren't able to travel at all. I wrote this book, The Psychology of Travel, ironically, during the two years where I wasn't able to travel at all.

算是给自己找点事做吧。

It was kind of something to do.

我想大多数人都认同旅行可能带来压力。当我回忆旅程时，最精彩的故事往往与失误有关。比如前任订错国家的那次，或是各种糟心事——像在委内瑞拉错过转机，结果遇到好心人主动载我们去目的地。人们是否普遍更关注旅行中的挑战？

I think most of us would agree that travel can be stressful. I find that when I think back on a trip, some of my best stories are about the mistakes. Like the time my ex booked us to the wrong country, or the aggravations. Like once I missed a connecting flight in Venezuela, but then I found somebody who volunteered to drive us to our destination. Is it common to focus on the challenges of travel?

我总盯着旅途中的混乱而非美好经历，这样很奇怪吗？

And am I weird in focusing on the mix ups rather than the positive experiences of a given trip?

历史上有个概念叫'旅行热症'，它涵盖了旅行可能引发的所有恐惧、焦虑和担忧。有趣的是，很多家庭争吵都围绕假期展开——这本该是享受时光的事。心理学家区分了旅行焦虑、旅行恐惧和旅行忧虑。我们可以先排除恐惧症，那属于非理性的独立范畴。现在重点说说前三种。

Well historically there was a concept called travel fever and travel fever is kind of an umbrella term for all the fears, anxieties and worries that travel can produce in us. I think quite a lot of domestic arguments revolve around holidays and it's ironic because that's kind of the thing that you do to enjoy yourself. But psychologists have distinguished between travel anxiety, travel fear and travel worry. We can leave aside phobias because that's an irrational sort of discrete category of experience on its own. Well let's just think about the other three.

旅行恐惧通常针对具体经历，比如害怕飞行或不熟悉的食物，有时只是对未知的恐惧。第二种焦虑是身处新环境时难以名状的不安感。第三种忧虑其实很有价值——毕竟旅行需要安排诸多事项，担心是否订对日期、带齐行李、或误携违禁品都很有实际意义。

Fear of travel is usually something which is levelled at specific experiences, particular things we're worried about. Now that might be something like flying or it might be something like tasting food that you're not familiar with. Sometimes it's just fear of the unknown. The second one, anxiety is a kind of undefinable feeling of just feeling unsettled when you're in a new situation. Also that's something that you can experience but the third one worry, worry about travel can actually be quite valuable because if you think about it, there is quite a lot to organize when you go travelling and it's pretty valuable and useful to worry about making sure that you book the tickets on the right day or carrying the right belongings with you or you're not carrying sharp objects in the wrong places.

所以我认为适度的旅行焦虑或忧虑并非坏事，通过额外准备就能缓解。旅程每个环节都可能出问题：出发前、旅途中、甚至归来后发现物品遗失。但更多规划和正念练习能调节这些情绪——这个话题我们稍后可以再探讨。

So I think a little bit of travel anxiety or travel worry is not such a bad thing and these kind of things can be mediated or prepared for just with a bit of extra preparation and planning I think. Things can go wrong at every step of a journey can't they? You can have anxiety before you set off, you can have anxiety while you're travelling and you can have anxiety once you've returned if you've lost some of your belongings but all of these things can be moderated with a bit more planning and perhaps a little bit of mindfulness, which is something we can perhaps talk about a little bit later on.

对于那些既想旅行又害怕旅行的人，你有什么建议？我是说，如果存在这种恐惧或焦虑，有没有什么方法可以让自己做好准备去旅行？

What about these people who are afraid to travel but maybe they want to? I mean, are there things that you can do to sort of prepare yourself to travel if you have that fear or anxiety?

我认为是的。回到保守旅行这个概念，人们担心旅行是可以理解的，因为大多数时候我们的生活相当规律，而旅行让我们跳出日常生活常规，这确实可能引发焦虑。因此我认为缓解焦虑的建议是：首先尝试渐进式旅行，可以先和有经验的人同行；其次考虑先去那些与你熟悉的地方有相似之处的目的地。这本质上就像学习新技能，我们学习新技能或认识新人时，最初都会小心翼翼而非冒然投入。具体可以尝试熟悉类型的旅行，比如先参加包价旅游，与认识的人同行；第三点我刚才提到过，就是在出发前多做些规划和调研。

I think so yeah, I mean going back to this idea of, conservative travel and I think travel it's understandable that people do worry about it because most of the time our lives are quite routine and we take ourselves outside the routine of our day to day life and it can be quite anxiety provoking. And so I think the advice to try to reduce anxiety a little bit is to maybe just think about traveling incrementally, maybe with people who are a little bit more experienced first of all. Also maybe think about traveling at first to places that you're that have got some similarities with the places that you already know about. It's basically about learning a new skill, isn't it? When we try to learn a new skill or get to know a new person, we go into it on tiptoes at first rather than jumping in with two feet and I think that's one thing that can reduce anxiety by first of all trying familiar type trips, maybe try and package holidays first of all, traveling with people we know and the third thing and I mentioned it before is just engaging in a little bit more planning and research before you set off.

如今我们有提前规划的便利，实际上现在要找到一个完全陌生的地方已经很难了，因为几乎所有地方都有记录，不是吗？

We have the luxury these days of being able to plan ahead you know and it's quite difficult these days to in fact visit something or a place which is a complete mystery because pretty much everywhere is documented, isn't it?

你提到的这些技术让我们能规划行程，现在我们可以用手机上的谷歌地图几乎走遍全球而不会迷路。这些技术如何改变了旅行体验？这些改变都是积极的吗？

You're sort of alluding to the technologies that enable us to plan out our trips and we can now navigate around, almost around the world, using Google Maps on our phones rather than getting lost all the time. How have these technologies changed the experience of travel, and is it all for the better?

我记得1999年第一次去马来西亚骑自行车旅行的经历，那时对我来说是次充满异国情调的旅行。骑车穿越大陆时，我发现了这些叫网吧的地方。虽然现在它们正在逐渐消失，但当时那里是观察人群的绝佳场所——你会看到许多来自不同国家的人，他们在东南亚却花大量时间对着屏幕与家乡的人联系，而不是真正体验马来西亚的乡村生活。所以我们必须思考技术在旅行中的角色。当然现在如你所说，全是GPS和手机了。

Well, I can remember the first experience I had of traveling in, which to me was quite an exotic trip when I went over to Malaysia with my bicycle in 1999. Cycled across the Mainland and I came across these things called internet cafes. I know these are sort of obviously on the they're dwindling at the moment but I thought this was a fascinating place to observe people because you had people from lots of different countries who were in Southeast Asia spending quite a lot of their time in front of screens communicating to people back home and not really experiencing you know village life in Malaysia or whatever. So I think we have to think about the role of technology in travel. Nowadays of course as you say it's all it's GPS and it's mobile phones.

有研究比较了两种探索新地方的方式：用手机导航和向路人问路。记得我们以前常问路吗？研究结果很有趣：在这项特定研究中被要求问路而不能使用手机的人，在后来的测试中，当被问及对街道、地点和感官体验的记忆时，他们给出的答案比那些用手机导航的人详细得多。我并非反对技术的人，不认为手机是坏东西，但它确实改变了体验。或许重新沉浸在我们过去那种面对面的社交连接中是有价值的。

There has been some research done about the different experiences that people have when discovering a new place either by using their mobile phone to navigate or by asking people the way. Do you remember when we used to do that? Yep. And so and it was quite interesting because the people who had asked people the way and weren't allowed to use their mobile phones in this particular study, they when they were later tested, about, asked questions about what they remembered about the streets and the places and some of the sensory experiences, they gave much more detailed answers, than did the people who had kind of worked it out for themselves with their phone. So I mean I'm not a person who, is a Luddite who thinks that mobile phones are a bad idea but just change the experience and maybe there is some value in trying to re immerse ourselves in some of the social connectedness, face to face social connectedness that we used to have to do I suppose.

关于旅行与技术还有个有趣的新发展——数字游民现象的兴起，这是种迷人的新型工作生活旅行平衡方式。最近我去中美洲工作时，注意到公寓楼里很多人早上起床后，就在不同桌子前进行常规办公室工作，他们从事各种IT相关职业，每隔两三天就会去旅行。这些人真正挑战了工作空间、旅行和家庭空间的概念，他们仅靠随身携带笔记本电脑就能谋生。对于能通过笔记本电脑工作的人来说，数字游民主义彻底重构了我们同时旅行和工作的方式。

Just one more interesting thing about travel and technology that's a recent development in the last few years is the rise of what's sometimes known as digital nomadism, which is a fascinating sort of new category of work life travel balance isn't it. On a recent trip I had which was for work in Central America, I stayed in an apartment block and I noticed that quite a lot of the people staying there will get up in the morning and basically carry out their ordinary office jobs at these different individual tables working in lots of random different IT related professions and then every two or three days they would do a bit of travelling. So what were they were doing was really challenging the idea of workspace, travel and home space and they were living, making a living, by virtue of the fact that they had their laptop with them. So digital nomadism for those people who are lucky enough to be able to work through their laptops, is a whole new formulation of the way that we can now travel, work at the same time.

我们将稍作休息。回来后，我将与史蒂文森博士探讨在社交媒体上记录和分享旅行经历的压力如何改变我们的旅行方式。关于技术问题，几年前我在尼斯花了三天时间徒步印加古道前往马丘比丘，那是一次非凡的体验。当我抵达遗址时，震惊地发现一日游游客几乎把所有时间都花在自拍上，而不是真正感受那个地方。这多少也削弱了我的游览乐趣。

We're going to take a short break. When we return, I'll talk to doctor Stevenson about how the pressure to document and share our travel experiences on social media is changing the way we experience travel. Related to the technology issue, a few years ago I spent three days in Nice hiking the Inca Trail to get to Machu Picchu, was an amazing experience. When I got to the ruins, I was stunned by all the day trippers who spent virtually all their time there taking selfies rather than just experiencing being in the place. And that kinda took away from my enjoyment too.

你认为在社交媒体上记录和分享旅行经历的压力，是否正在改变我们实时体验旅行的方式，以及后续对旅程的记忆方式？

Do you think that the pressure to document and share our travel experiences on social media is changing the way we experience travel both in real time and then how we remember the trips?

是的。这是两个不同但都非常有趣的问题。首先，我认为通过自拍等方式记录日常体验的做法，已经改变了我们对所有行动和流动性的体验方式，这不仅仅适用于旅行。如今你会看到人们在健身房、音乐会和假期中，通过拍摄以自己为主角、体验对象为背景的照片来传达他们的经历。

Yes. Two different questions there. Both of them really interesting. First of all, I think that the way that we document everyday experience using selfies for example has changed the way we experience all of our movements and mobility and it doesn't just apply to travel. So, I think what you'll see nowadays is people at the gym, at concerts, and on holiday communicating their experiences by taking photographs in which they are in the foreground and whatever it is they're experiencing is in the background.

这取决于你如何看待这个问题。乐观地说，这很棒——它表明人们能够分享经历并沉浸其中，技术让他们能与关注者和朋友形成这种想象的共同体。摄影风格确实发生了变化：拍摄地点的技巧可能已被展示自己身处该地的欲望所取代，这是完全不同的视角。但积极来看，我们确实把摄影当作选择性记忆的形式，不是吗？

Now it depends how you want to look at that. If I was being optimistic you could say well this is great because it shows that people are able to share their experiences and, immerse themselves in those experiences and the technology allows them to form this kind of imagined community with their followers and friends. So that's a good thing. I guess the style of photography has changed because of course the skill of taking a photograph of a place has perhaps been replaced by the desire to show yourself in that place and that's a very different kind of perspective isn't it? But I think on the positive side we do use photography as a form of selective memory don't we?

如今年纪渐长，我也会拍摄事物帮助记忆，但这向来是个不错的主意。或许可以说摄影是我们经历的不可靠见证者，但有时我们需要这种不可靠。我们往往不会拍摄旅途中的争执或排队场景，而是记录那些所谓的巅峰体验。

These days I'm getting a little bit older. I do take photographs of things just to help me remember them but I think that's always been a pretty good idea. I guess you could also say about photography is that it's a kind of unreliable witness, isn't it, of the things that we have experienced. Maybe we need that. We tend not to take the photographs of the arguments we're having or the cues that we're standing in during our trip but we take more photographs about the things where we might call them peak experiences.

我认为相机从来都不是可靠的历史记录工具，但我们将自己置于这些体验中的方式确实也发生了些许变化。

I don't think cameras were ever a reliable historical document but I just think that the way that we place ourselves in those experiences has changed a little bit as well.

你在书中写道：旅伴和途中遇见的人都是旅行体验的核心部分，根本不存在真正的独自旅行。能详细谈谈这个观点吗？

In your book you write about how other people, our travel companions and the people we meet while we're traveling, are an essential part of the experience and that there's really no such thing as a solo trip. Can you talk about that?

这实际上是我在写书时想到的，独行旅行的概念几乎有点神话色彩。我的意思是，你可以不和家人朋友一起旅行，但很难完全避开他人——除非你要去登珠峰，但最近的照片显示珠峰现在也排起了长队。心理学家经常讨论的一个理论是计划行为理论，即我们计划做某事然后执行，认为自己是完全理性的。但实际上我们的决定常被他人复杂化，任何有家庭或朋友的人都明白，人生目标（包括旅行）常会被他人的行为冲淡或影响。

This was something that occurred to me when I was writing the book actually but the, the idea of solo travel is almost a bit of a myth. I mean you can travel without your friends and without your family but it's very difficult to travel without other people unless you're, I was going to say, unless you're climbing Everest but recent photographs suggest that Everest got quite a long queue, quite a long queue up there now. But I think one of the theories that psychologists always talk about is the theory of planned behavior. The idea that we plan to do something and then we do it and that we're very logical, using very logical cognition. But actually a lot of our decisions are complicated by other people and I think anyone who's a member of a family or a group of friends knows that the things you want to do in your lives and this includes travel are often diluted or influenced by what everybody else is doing.

这种影响可能很简单，比如看到餐厅空无一人就突然不想进去用餐。社会影响对我们作用巨大，尤其当你提到那些对陌生环境感到紧张的人时——如果发现某地有志同道合者，就会激发分享体验的欲望。但旅行社交还有另一面，这与偏见歧视相关：在文化战争时代，人们对差异存在恐惧。有理论认为，当你去尼日利亚或墨西哥等新国度旅行时，当地见闻会影响你对这些国家民众的态度。心理学中的接触假说就指出，实际接触后人们常会发现'他们其实挺不错'。

This can be as simple as looking through the window of a restaurant and seeing that it's empty and suddenly deciding it might not be the place you want to eat because nobody else is eating there. So social influence has a big effect on us but also, social influence is likely to increase the likelihood of our doing something especially as you were talking earlier about people who might be a bit nervous about visiting somewhere different. If you see people who you think might be like minded in a place then that does have, it might prompt you to share some of those experiences. But there is another side to sort of social aspects of travel and that I think that this is quite important and interesting in that I think it's got a relationship to the idea of prejudice and discrimination as well because obviously in the era of the kind of culture wars and I was trying to learn a bit more about different types of people and there are this fear of difference out there. There is a theory which suggests that when you travel to a new country which might be a new country to you, let's say you took a holiday in Nigeria or Mexico or something like that, being in that country might influence your attitude towards Mexicans and Nigerians And there is a theory in psychology called the contact hypothesis, which basically says you've heard people say things like, well, actually, when you get to know them, they're quite nice.

这个理论的核心在于：当你面对面接触那些曾被媒体报道导致你心存疑虑的群体时，偏见会消散。但这个理论有个精妙的附加条件：研究表明只有当你们以平等身份相遇时，偏见才会减少。比如在尼日利亚遇到的若是清洁工或服务人员，偏见就难被打破；但若以同事身份平等交往，旅行就能真正减少偏见。

And this whole idea that once you have contact with a group of people who previously you might be skeptical about maybe based on what you'd read in the newspapers, some of that evaporates when you meet them face to face. But there's a lovely complication to this theory. One piece of research suggested or demonstrated actually that, prejudice reduces when you meet people who are different from you only when you meet them on an equal status situation. So what I mean by that is if you meet lots of people from Nigeria, but those people from Nigeria are cleaners or people who are serving you drinks or people who are working for you in some way, that prejudice is not likely to be challenged. However if you meet those people in a social situation in their houses as colleagues and equals then it's at those situations where prejudice can be reduced by travel.

所以这是旅行开阔视野的另一个绝佳例证，让你变得更国际化——这个词很贴切，不是吗？

So that's another nice example of travel broadening the mind and making you a bit more cosmopolitan is a good word, isn't it?

是啊。说到旅伴，我这辈子也算去过不少地方，但有些好友绝对不适合同行（具体是谁就不说了）。怎么判断一个人是否适合当旅伴？该看哪些特质？

Yeah. Speaking of other people, I mean, I've done a fair amount of traveling in my life, and I'm pretty sure I have some close friends I could never travel with, and I'm not gonna say who they are. But how do you know if someone is going to be a good travel companion? What are the characteristics you should look for?

我想结合自身经历回答——虽然书里没多写这个。我是个比较孤僻的人，最享受的旅伴其实只有自己或伴侣。当然有很多喜欢相处的人，但长期共处确实不易。要让结伴旅行成功，关键是确保你们共同热爱的活动。

I think I might have to answer this from my own experience. It wasn't something that I wrote a lot about in the book and I don't want to step out of my comfort zone but I'm quite antisocial you know. Personally I find the two people who I enjoy traveling with most are myself or my partner. And I've got lots of people who I like to spend time with but it is quite difficult to spend a prolonged period with that person. But I would say that the best way to make a social travel trip a success is to ensure that you and that other person or those other people are doing something together that you really enjoy.

比如滑雪旅行就很妙，即便相处并非100%融洽，但共享的经历能弥补平日共同点的不足。反过来讲，即便志趣相投但全程无互动，这种旅行反而容易失败。

For example, if you're going on a skiing trip with some people then the great thing about that is, even if you don't get on with them a 100%, you're all sharing an experience together. And I think that can be a really good, advantage. Doing something together it can be a great replacement for not having, lots and lots of things in common generally. And I mean that in the most positive way. I mean, the flip side of that is you can travel with people who you have lots in common with but you don't actually do anything together and that kind of wouldn't work as well.

心理学中有个概念叫'心流'。它与幸福感相关，也与正念相关，本质上就像画家作画时完全沉浸其中的状态。如果你以积极的方式体验旅行中的心流，你会完全专注于当下所做的事，几乎忘记身处何地、时间几何。这种共同享受美好事物的理念——无论是滑雪、激流漂流，还是步行——研究表明关键在于找到能让你们产生共鸣的活动。

There's a concept in psychology called flow. It's related to well-being and it's also related to mindfulness and basically it's the idea that just like an artist who's painting a picture who gets totally lost in the task. If you're traveling in a way where you experience travel flow in a positive way, you're being totally absorbed in the task that you're doing and you almost lose awareness of where you are and what time it is. And that kind of idea of doing nice things together that you're really enjoying, skiing, whitewater rafting, there's been some research done on that, even walking. I think the key is have something to do which brings you together.

您是如何对旅行心理学产生兴趣的？写这本书的初衷是什么？

How did you become interested in the psychology of travel, and what was the impetus for writing the book?

我很惊讶这本书居然还没人写过。如今我们早已超越大众旅游时代，如果你像我偶尔那样查阅学术期刊，会发现已有大量关于旅行与心理学的研究，其中很多都涉及你今天提出的问题Kim。但我也注意到，似乎没人把这些内容系统整理并以更通俗的方式呈现出来。

I was surprised that this book hadn't already been written. I couldn't believe it. I mean we're way beyond the era of popular tourism now. If you search academic journals as I do now and again, you will find that there is quite a lot of research that has been conducted on topics related to travel and psychology and a lot of these relate to the questions you've been asking today Kim. However, I was also mindful of the fact that nobody seemed to have sat down and collected all these things together and written them in a more accessible way, dare I say it.

和其他学者一样，我也写过大多数读者永远不会看的学术论文——它们发表在期刊上，主要供同行阅读。但我想把旅行心理学分成五六个主题（你今天已涉及很多：社交旅行、健康与旅行、旅行恐惧等），精选最有趣的研究发现，编成一本普通旅行爱好者也愿意读的读物。另外，正如我提到的，疫情期间我们有18个月无法旅行，我需要做些事——这书某种程度上成了弗洛伊德所说的'升华替代品'。

Now I'm as guilty as anyone else of writing academic articles that most people will never read. Okay, because they get published in journals and they may get read by other academics which is great, but I thought it would be a nice idea to divide up the psychology of travel into five or six topics and you've covered a lot of those today, social travel, health and travel, fear of travel, and to just cherry pick some of the most interesting findings, from other researchers and make these into a sort of sliver volume which, travelers or people with an interest in travel would like to read about, not just academics. So there was that And then the second factor was, as I mentioned before, there was eighteen months where we just couldn't travel and I needed something to do. And this seemed to be almost like a bit of a substitute sublimated travel as Freud might call it.

说到替代旅行，我开场时提到过：如果没有时间或预算旅行，是否可以通过培养旅行者心态、阅读游记或观看旅行视频来获得部分旅行益处？

Speaking of substitute travel, another question I think I alluded to this in in my introduction was, if you don't have the time or the budget to travel, can you gain some of the benefits of travel by approaching your life and where you live with a travel mindset or maybe reading about other people's travels or even watching videos about travel?

当然可以。实际上有种融合文学、旅行与地理学的心理学流派叫'心理地理学'，算是旅行心理学中的异类。它20世纪起源于巴黎，由文学家居伊·德波提出，核心观点是旅行心态无关距离——我们无需离家万里也能像旅行者那样观察世界。

I think definitely you can do that. And in fact, there is a school of psychology which is kind of a mixture between literature, travel, and geography, and it's called psychogeography. And it's a little bit of an outlier in the psychology of travel. But psychogeography began in France, in Paris actually in the twentieth century by a literary artist called Guy Debord. He talked a lot about the fact that travel is something that we can it's a mindset that we can adopt and we don't have to be a long way away from home to behave like a traveler.

世上最有趣的事物未必在远方。疫情期间我忽然发现居住的城镇有许多新奇之处——当我们被迫每日散步一小时，心理地理学印证了另一位心理学家的观点：'目的地并非唯一值得关注的地方'。有些心理地理学者会恶作剧般地拿着过时的家乡指南，入住本地酒店度周末，尝试用游客视角重新发现城市。2013年读博时我就有过类似经历...

The most interesting things of the world are not necessarily the ones that are furthest away and I think we all learned during the pandemic that I don't know about you but I suddenly discovered lots of interesting things about my own own area town village where I lived because we had to walk around and take our fresh air an hour a day and psychogeography really teaches us that, to take a quote from another psychologist, destinations are not the only places. In other words, we can find interesting things at every point along a journey, not just at the place we're meant to be traveling to. And a nice little prank that some psychogeographers have done is to do exactly what you've just suggested there Kim, is to maybe take an out of date guidebook of their own town and go and check into a hotel in their own city and try to live like a tourist for a long weekend and just see if you can re I'd like to use the word defamiliarize yourself with your city by looking at it from the outside. Now I'll tell you a little anecdote, from when I did my PhD in 02/2013.

我的博士论文主题是关于初到一个新地方的体验和感受。我进行了移动访谈，采访了六位同时期从不同地方来到曼彻斯特的移民。这个项目中我的工作基本上是跟随他们，通过步行、摄影、购物、饮食等活动，询问他们如何认识这座城市。这很棒，因为我通过初来乍到者的视角重新认识了自己的城市。我在博士论文中写道，我基本上对自己的城市产生了陌生感，开始以局外人的眼光看待它，这是种奇妙的体验。所以是的，我认为你问题的简短答案是肯定的——我们可以尝试通过与新来者一起认识城市，来获得对自己城市的新视角。

My topic for my dissertation, my for my PhD was the experience of arriving in a new place and how that feels. And I did mobile interviews, interviews with six different migrants who'd all arrived in Manchester at the same time from different places. And my job basically during this project was to follow them around and ask them questions about how they got to know this city using different activities like walking, photography, shopping, eating and it was great because I got to know my own city through the eyes and ears of people who just arrived. And I think I wrote in my PhD that I was basically defamiliarized with my own city And I began to see it as an outsider, and that was a fantastic experience. So yes, I think the short answer to your question is yes, we can try to take a fresh perspective on our own city maybe by getting to know it with someone else who's just arrived.

那么总结一下，你为这本书所做的研究是否改变了你个人生活中的旅行方式？你自己是个经常旅行的人吗？

So just to wrap up, did the research you did for this book change the way you approach travel in your own life and are you a big traveler yourself?

很幸运，我确实曾是个经常旅行的人。虽然听起来有点讽刺，但过去几年我变得更满足于探索居住地周边，也更懂得品味已有的旅程。现在我可能旅行频率降低了，但质量提高了。在生态焦虑和气候变化的时代，最有意义的旅行方式或许是减少航班次数，但延长在每个目的地的停留时间，更深入地沉浸其中。这就是我最近在尝试的——减少旅行次数，但争取在每个地方待得更久些。

I have been a big traveler myself fortunately. I think this, if this is ironic really but I think over the last few years I've kind of become a little bit more content with exploring places where I live and maybe by savoring some of the journeys that I have, maybe a little bit more. I think I may travel with greater quality but not quite as frequently and I think in times of sort of eco anxiety and climate change some of the most meaningful or a meaningful way of making journeys is maybe to take fewer flights but maybe to go to places where you fly to and stay there a little bit longer and immerse yourselves in those places a little bit more. So I think that's one thing I've tried to do a little bit more is travel less frequently but if I can spend a little longer and try to immerse myself a little bit more in those places.

最近有什么旅行计划吗？

Got any trips planned right now?

我们这周末要去威尔士，虽然离这里不远，但准备来个愉快的徒步假期。是的，这就是我们的下一次旅行，应该会很美好。

We're off to Wales for the weekend, which isn't very far from here, but we're going to, do a nice walking holiday. Yes. So that's going to be our next trip. So that'll be lovely.

真不错。史蒂文森，感谢你今天参与节目，这次对话非常愉快。

Nice. Well, Stevenson, I want to thank you for joining me today. This has been a lot of fun.

非常感谢你的邀请，祝播客后续制作顺利。这次对话非常精彩，谢谢。

Thank you so much for having me and, good luck with the rest of the podcast. And, that's been a fantastic conversation. Thank you.

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这里是美国心理学会，我是Kim Mills。

For the American Psychological Association, I'm Kim Mills.