达尔文的大胆构想与理查德·道金斯

接下来在《星谈》节目中，将播出我与理查德·道金斯教授的一对一对话。我们不仅探讨他作为生物学家、进化生物学家的生涯，还关注他作为作家的身份。我们将从他多部著作中摘取片段，探寻他想要传达的信息。欢迎加入我们。欢迎收看《星谈》，这里是科学与流行文化碰撞的宇宙空间。

Coming up on StarTalk, a one on one conversation between me and professor Richard Dawkins. And we explore his life as not only a biologist, evolutionary biologist, but as an author. And we pluck snippets from many of his books to find out what messages he wanted to lay down. Join us. Welcome to StarTalk, your place in the universe where science and pop culture collide.

《星谈》现在开始。这里是《星谈》，我是你们的天体物理学家尼尔·德格拉斯·泰森。今天，我将与独一无二的理查德·道金斯进行对话。理查德，欢迎再次来到我的办公室。

StarTalk begins right now. This is StarTalk. Neil deGrasse Tyson here, your personal astrophysicist. And today, I am in conversation with the one, the only, Richard Dawkins. Richard, welcome back to my office.

非常感谢。这大概是你第四次来这里了吧。

Thank you very much. This is like your fourth time here or something.

差不多是这个次数。每次来总是令人愉悦，尼尔。

Think it is something like that. It is always always a pleasure, Neil.

欢迎。我是说，我觉得我们有很多事情要聊。最近，或者说今年，我们失去了哲学家丹尼尔·丹尼特，我最近才发现——虽然我没读完他所有著作，但读过一些——他曾宣称达尔文的自然选择进化论是人类有史以来最伟大的思想。他是从哲学家而非生物学家的角度得出这个结论的。你如何看待这个宣言？

Welcome. I mean, we we we have a lot of catching up to do, I think. So recently, or at least this year, we lost Daniel Dennett, philosopher Daniel Dennett, and I recently learned I didn't read all of his books, I read some of them. He declared that Darwin's evolution by natural selection was the greatest idea anybody ever had, And he's coming to it not as a biologist, but as a philosopher. So how do you reflect on that declaration?

他在著作《达尔文的危险思想》开篇就提出这个观点。他的核心论点是：在达尔文出现之前，所有人都认为像人类、橡树这样复杂的事物必然存在设计层面的解释。而达尔文的卓越洞见在于意识到并非如此——仅凭物理定律通过自然选择这个奇特过程的筛选，就足以产生如此惊人的复杂性。令我始终感到不解的是，这个思想为何直到19世纪中叶才由达尔文、华莱士，或许还有一两个人提出。

He said that at the beginning of his book, Darwin's dangerous idea, and his point was that before Darwin came along, it seemed obvious to everyone that big complicated things like humans and oak trees and things had to have a an an explanation in terms of design. And it was a huge stroke of insight for Darwin to see that it didn't, that the laws of physics alone could produce this prodigious amount of complexity filtered through this odd process of natural selection. To me, it's always been strange that it took so long as it took until the middle of the nineteenth century for Darwin and Wallace and even maybe one or two other people.

这可是经历了数千年的思想积淀。

This is thousands of years of thought.

是的。而且还有无数杰出人物

Yes. And and Brilliant people

都曾涌现

have come

但亚里士多德本可能发现却未能领悟。想想看，牛顿或莱布尼兹发明微积分、揭示引力定律需要多么超凡的智慧——这里还有牛顿手指玩偶呢。按理说应该有人在19世纪中叶之前就悟出自然选择进化论，然而事实并非如此。这确实令人震惊，也需要我们寻找解释。

But Aristotle could have could have had it and didn't. I mean, when you think how much cleverer you had to be to do what Newton did or or Leibniz, inventing calculus, working out about the laws of how gravity There's Newton finger puppet here. You think that somebody would have tumbled to evolution by natural selection before the middle of the nineteenth century, yet they didn't. And so that's an astonishing thing, and it needs an explanation.

那么丹尼尔·丹尼特解释过为什么花了那么长时间吗？如果他没解释，你的解释会是什么？

So did Daniel Dennett explain why it took that long? What and if he didn't, what would be your explanation?

我不记得他是否解释过。我的解释是，首先，伟大的恩斯特·迈尔——我是说，他当时在这里，我想。

I don't remember whether he did. Mine would be well, first of all, Ernst Maurer, the great I mean, he was here, I think.

在是的。就在美国自然历史博物馆这里。他

At the yes. Here at the American Museum of Natural History. He

认为这是因为本质主义。他认为这是因为亚里士多德和柏拉图，他们像几何学家一样思考。我是说，直角三角形是一种完美的形式悬在那里。他们认为完美的兔子、完美的犀牛也像直角三角形一样悬在那里。所以你无法想象一只兔子怎么会变成别的东西。

thought it was because of essentialism. He thought that that because of Aristotle and Plato, who thought that just because they thought like geometers. I mean, a a right angle triangle is a kind of perfect form sort of hanging out there. And they thought that the perfect rabbit, the perfect rhinoceros was hanging out there just just like a right angle triangle. So you couldn't imagine how a rabbit could turn into anything different.

那是他的解释。但不会是我的。我是说，我认为只是

That that was his explanation. That wouldn't be mine. I mean, I I think I think it's just that

不过这个解释很有趣，因为它触及了我们观察自然时的偏见。就像我的人，包括哥白尼，无法摆脱轨道是完美圆形的想法。他们无法摆脱这一点。上帝为什么要设计一个几何形状不完美的宇宙？所以即使是哥白尼，把太阳放回已知宇宙的中心，也采用了圆形轨道，而由于轨道不是圆形的，它们实际上与夜空的预测不符。

That's an interesting one though, because it speaks to the bias that we have observing nature. So my people, including Copernicus, could not shake the idea of orbits that were perfect circles. They couldn't shake that. Why would God design a universe with a shape that wasn't geometrically perfect? So even Copernicus, putting the sun back in the middle of the known universe, had circular orbits, and since the orbits are not circles, they actually differed from predictions on the night sky.

所以那在当时是个问题。就像哥白尼，这个可能行得通，但仍然不匹配。本轮说表现得更好。所以它并没有立即被接受，包括教会的抵制，当然，因为

So that was a problem at the time. It's like Copernicus, this might work, but it still doesn't fit. The epicycles are doing much better. And so so it wasn't instantly taken up, including the resistance, the church resistance, of course, because

当然，是的。

Of course, yes.

地球不在中心。所以我认为你所描述的对等物是我们试图假设自然是完美的冲动，然后用我们所知道的一切来解释它。

Earth wasn't in the middle So so our counterpart to what I think you're describing is the urge to try to presume nature was perfect, and then account for it with everything we know that is.

是的。我只是觉得椭圆和圆一样也是相当整洁的几何图形。但不管怎样，回到为什么花了这么长时间以及完美兔子、完美犀牛、完美马的想法，在某种程度上，这有点傻，因为如果你看看——我是说，一个兔子种群是相当多变的。总之，那是恩斯特·迈尔对为什么花了这么长时间的解释。达尔文

Yes. All I was thinking was that I find an ellipse a pretty neat geometric figure as well as a circle. But anyway, going back to why it took so long and the idea of the perfect rabbit, the perfect rhinoceros, the perfect horse, in a way, that was a bit silly because if you were to look at I mean, a population of rabbits is is pretty variable. And anyway, that that was Ernst Meyer's explanation for why it took so long. Darwin

做到了

did it

通过人工选择的方式。大家都知道。农民知道，园艺师知道，园丁知道你可以通过育种改变一朵玫瑰，改变一棵卷心菜。

by going via artificial selection. Everybody knew. Farmers knew horticulturalists knew. Gardeners knew that you could change a rose. You could change a cabbage, by just breeding.

实际上，达尔文的洞见在于指出：你并不真的需要育种者，不需要人类来进行选育。大自然会为你完成这个过程，生存竞争会为你完成。这并不复杂。

And really, Darwin's insight to say you don't actually need a breeder. You don't need need a human to do the breeding. Nature does it for you. Survival does it for you. It's not that difficult.

我的意思是，这并不需要什么高等数学之类的知识。然而在达尔文和华莱士之前，没有人理解这一点。

I mean, doesn't require any sort of higher mathematics or anything. Yet nobody got it until Darwin and Wallace.

这就是为什么我对丹尼尔·丹尼特感到好奇——作为哲学家，原则上任何哲学家都可能想到这个理论。因为与相对论和量子物理不同（这些是宇宙大小尺度上的行为领域，无法仅凭空想推导出来），但自然选择进化论是可以在扶手椅上推导出来的。

And this is why I'm intrigued that Daniel Dennett, a philosopher who, in principle, any philosopher could have come up with this, because unlike relativity and unlike quantum physics, which are realms of behavior of the universe, large and small, that you can't just deduce from your armchair. No. But evolution by natural selection could have been deduced in an armchair.

只是当时没有人做到。本来可以做到的。令人惊讶的是它确实没有被早发现。有趣的是，达尔文和华莱士都是旅行博物学家，两人都在南美洲进行过标本收集——华莱士的整个南美收藏在一场大火中损失殆尽。

It just wasn't. It could. It it it it is surprising that it did didn't. It's interesting that both Darwin and Wallace were traveling naturalists, and they both were collectors in South America, both in South America. Wallace lost his entire South American collection in a fire.

哦。之后他去了远东，但他们都是自然历史标本的收藏家。另一个可能想到这个理论的人是帕特里克·马修，他是一名园丁和果园管理员。但哲学家们——我们知道他们并没有提出这个理论。

Oh. And then he went to the Far East, but but they were both collectors of natural history specimens. And the other person who might have thought of it is Patrick Matthew, who who was a gardener and an orchard keeper. But philosophers know they didn't do it.

他们没有，但他们本可以做到的。

They didn't, they could have.

他们本可以做到的。

They could have.

是的。所以你写过——我这里有你的全部著作清单。你的创作简直一发不可收拾

Yes. So you've written I mean, I have a list here of, like, all your books. You've been out of control over

没有某些人那么多。

Not as much as some people.

我把你请到这里。《自私的基因》是你的第一本书吗？

I got you here. Was The Selfish Gene your first book

是的。

Yes.

是在1976年吗？

Back in 1976?

是的。

Yes.

那是我高中毕业那年。对，不对。我记得是因为那是美国建国两百周年。大家都对此大做文章。

I was that was the year I graduated high school. Right. No. I remember because it was like the bicentennial year. Everybody made a big deal of this.

是的。那是我第一次有资格投票的总统选举。我投给了吉米·卡特，我得说这句老掉牙的话。但当我见到他时，我说，你是我投票选出的第一位总统，就在我生日后一个月我投了他的票。

Yes. It was my first presidential election that I could vote in. Yeah. And I voted for Jimmy Carter, and I got to tell this so cliched line. But I when I met him, I said, you were my first president that I voted for, and it was one month after my birthday I got to vote for him.

所以我想在这里做个小练习。我会提到你的书，不是全部，你的书太多了。如果可以的话，你能告诉我每本书中你最想与读者交流的精华部分是什么吗？

So I thought I'd have a short exercise here. I'm gonna mention your books. Not all of them. You have too many of them. Could you just tell me what your favorite bit of that book was that you were communicating with the reader, if I may?

那么从《硫磺之链》开始吧。

So start off, The Sulfurous Chain.

自然选择在基因之间进行选择。基因是唯一包含信息的实体。数字信息是唯一代代相传的东西。存活下来的是信息，是数字信息。有些基因比其他基因存活得更好。

Natural selection chooses between genes. Genes are the only thing the information contained in genes. Digital information is the only thing that goes from generation to generation. That which survives is information, digital information. Some genes survive better than others.

我们，这些躯体，我们，这些动物，我们，这些植物，不过是用来保存那些寄居在我们体内的基因的机器。

We, the bodies, we, the animals, we, the plants, just the machines that are there to preserve the genes that ride in that that ride inside us.

哇。好吧。这让我想起了我如何描述你的肠道细菌。我说

Woah. Okay. So That reminds me of how I describe your gut bacteria. I say

哦，是的。

Oh, yes.

人们总想认为自己站在世界之巅，而我说，对那些细菌来说，你不过是一个装有无氧粪便物质的黑暗容器。

People wanna think they're like top of the world, and I say, all you are to those bacteria is a darkened vessel of anaerobic fecal matter.

没错。而且这和你的基因情况非常相似。我的意思是，它不是粪便物质，而是睾丸物质或卵巢物质，但但确实如此。

That's right. And and it's pretty much the same with your with your genes. I mean, it's not it's not fecal matter. It's testicular matter or ovarian matter, but but yes.

好吧。所以它们才是主角，是它们在推动自身延续。

Okay. So they're the ones and they're the ones carrying themselves forward.

是的。

Yes.

那么，如果它只是信息，你能想象有一天生物学不再必要，而你只需以某种方式存储或复制数字信息吗？

So if it's just information, can you imagine a day where the biology is no longer necessary, and you just have the digital information stored or or duplicated in some way?

是的，当然可以。你可以——我的意思是，现在你已经可以保存你的整个基因组了。我就把我的整个基因组存在一张光盘上，而且我曾经

Yes, certainly. You could I mean, already you could preserve your entire genome. I mean, I've got my entire genome on on one disc, and I I once

你有备份吗？

Do you have a backup?

我是。

I am.

只是确认一下。是在云端吗？是

Just checking. Is it on the cloud? Is it

那个想法嘛，我没有备份。这个想法是做一个电视节目，节目的设定是它将被存入家族保险库——道金斯家族在奇平诺顿教堂的保险库。

The the idea well, I don't have a backup. The idea was it was a television program, and the conceit of the program was it was going to be posted into the family vault the Dawkins family vault in the church at Chipping Norton.

哦，天哪。

Oh my goodness.

在一千年后被挖出来。

It's been dug up in a thousand years.

嗯哼。

Uh-huh.

然后他们

And they were and

就像一个时间胶囊。对。是的。

Like a like a time capsule. Yeah. Yes.

没错。想法是一千年后，他们把它挖出来，复制一个我。当然，然后我们会讨论为什么那其实不是我，因为那只是我的同卵双胞胎。嗯。但那就是最初的想法。

Exactly. And the idea was that in a thousand years, they dig it up and make a duplicate of me. And and, of course, then we talk about why it wouldn't actually be me because it would just be an identical twin of me. Mhmm. But that that was the idea.

是你吗？是的。肯定是你，因为还有谁会这么做？把它发到社交媒体上。如果是你有一本祖先的书，而那并不是。

Was it you? Yes. It must have been you, because who else would do this? Post it on social media. Was it you if you had a book of your ancestors, and it was no.

如果你有一本你母亲照片的书。这是你做的吗？是的。再跟我说一遍。

If you had a a book of the a picture of your mother. Was this you who did this? Yes. Tell me this again.

我想你说的是你母亲的母亲。对。你把它们堆叠起来。这只是众多展现地质时间漫长程度的方式之一。我记不太清具体怎么说了。

I think you're thinking of Of your mother's mother. Yeah. You you you pile them up. It's just one one of many ways of of dramatizing the the the enormity of of geological time. I forget exactly how it goes.

有很多种方式可以说明。我的意思是，不。

There are lots of ways of doing it. I mean No.

但如果你这样做，并且持续下去，其中一张照片

But you do this, and if you keep doing it, one of those pictures

是一条鱼。是一条鱼。没错。然而每一代看起来都和上一代以及下一代相似。没有突然的，没有突然的。

is Is a fish. Is a fish. Exactly. And yet and yet every single generation looks like the the the previous one and and the next one. There's no sudden There's no sudden.

这不是突然的。

It's not sudden.

很多人无法理解这一点。他们认为，肯定有那么一个时刻它不再是鱼了，但事实上并没有。它只是逐渐、逐渐、逐渐、逐渐地改变了。

Many people can't grasp this. They think, well, there must have been a time when it stopped being a fish, and, you know, it must but there wasn't. It just gradually, gradually, gradually, gradually changed.

好吧。既然如此，我完全理解，你能允许我给出我对鸡和蛋的解释吗？

Okay. Will you allow me, given this, which I completely understand, you have to allow me my explanation for the chicken and the egg.

好的。

Okay.

好吗？所以我告诉别人，但我从未得到你的认可。我能用那个词跟你这么说吗？

Okay? So I tell people, but I've never gotten your blessings on this. Can I use that word with you?

是的。是的。当然。我完全赞同祝福。

Yeah. Yeah. Of course. I'm all for blessings.

好的。所以我简单地告诉人们，他们说，先有鸡还是先有蛋？我说，先有蛋。它只是由一只不是鸡的鸟生下来的。是的。

Okay. So I simply tell people, they say, what came first, chicken and egg? I said, the egg. It was just laid by a bird that was not a chicken. Yes.

这是一个公平的说法。

That's a fair statement.

它是由一只恐龙生下来的。

It was laid by an dinosaur.

我在压缩

I'm compressing

是的。

Yes.

你知道，那是十亿年，一亿年的时间。

A billion you know, a 100,000,000 years of time there.

是的。

Yes.

但在某个时刻，你会说从蛋里孵出来的是鸡，但那是一个遗传上的

But at some point, you're gonna say what comes out of the egg is a chicken, and but that's a that's a genetic

与上一代不同的变异。从来没有一个时刻，一只不是鸡的鸟生出了一只鸡。它从来都不是。当然。它从来都不是

alteration from the previous generation. There never was a moment when a bird that was not a chicken gave rise to a chicken. It was it never was Of course. It never was

一种高度压缩的

a very compressed

是的。

Yes.

这是一种简写

It's a shorthand

是的。

Yes.

对于你刚才提到的祖先之书。是的。回到鱼类。是的。

For what you just said with the book of your ancestors. Yes. Going back to the fish. Yes.

我、我的意思是，我曾经收到一位律师的来信，大意是说进化论不可能是真的，因为物种的定义是成员之间总能相互交配繁殖。你无法想象会有那么一个时期，子代无法与父代繁殖。当然，你无法想象。但他认为这意味着进化论在某种程度上是无效的。他无法理解

I I mean, I I once had a letter from a lawyer who said, roughly speaking, evolution can't be true because it's because a species is defined as members can always interbreed with each other. And you can't imagine that there was a time when a child generation was incapable of breeding with the previous generation. Of course, you couldn't. But he thought that meant that somewhat evolution was invalid. He couldn't grasp

一切都是被特别创造出来的。

That everything was specially created.

是的。一切都是一个贯穿始终的渐进过程，当你回溯你的祖先时，他们会变得稍微不那么像人，再稍微不那么像人，但当你从他们身边走过时，你永远不会注意到这一点。如果你想象

Yeah. Everything is it's it's a gradual process all the way through, and and and as you step back through your ancestors, they become slightly less like a human, slightly less like a human, but you never notice it as as you walk past them. If you imagine

我想看到一条鱼。这很有趣。所以你跳着往前看，看到一条鱼。你说，那是我的父母。是的。

I wanna see a fish. It's just funny. So you skip ahead, and there's a fish. You say, that's my parent. Yes.

那是

That's

是的。这对人们来说有点诡异。但是，但是随着

Yes. It's a little freaky for people. But but as

你必须，你必须欣赏。

You gotta you gotta appreciate.

当你沿着世代行走时，你永远不会看到它们变得越来越像鱼。这个过程会如此缓慢，以至于你根本注意不到。

As you walk along the generations, you'd never see you'd never see them them getting more fish like. It would just be so so gradual, you would never notice it.

因为一代人只有三四十年的时间，而我们谈论的是数十亿年。是的。没错。所以你需要深度时间让进化完成它需要做的事情。

Because generations are only thirty, forty years, and we're talking billions. Yes. That's right. Yeah. So you needed deep time for evolution to do what it needed to do.

在十九世纪中叶，我们有深度时间的概念吗？

Did we have deep time in the middle nineteenth century?

嗯，并不真正有。没有。对的。

Well, not really. No. Right.

因为在当时的天文学中，我们满足于一个只有一万年历史的宇宙

Because didn't in astronomy. We were we were satisfied with a 10,000 year old universe

是的。

Yes.

因为在我们理解核能之前

Because before we understood nuclear energy

是的。

Yes.

这是一个巨大的能量库，我们曾认为太阳只是一块煤。

Which is a huge repository, we were thinking the sun was just a lump of coal.

是乔治·达尔文，那个乔治是谁？达尔文的儿子乔治。乔治。查尔斯·达尔文的儿子乔治是最早指出核能可以解决这个问题的人之一。哦。

It was George Darwin was one of the George who who? Darwin's son George. George. Charles Darwin's son George was one of the people who pointed out eventually that nuclear energy could do the trick. Oh.

小小的

Nice little

好的。完美

Okay. Perfect

算是为他正名了。是的。

justice for him. Yeah.

那么达尔文家族中是谁第一次解释了潮汐现象？

And which of the Darwins explained tides for the first time?

可能是乔治。

Probably George.

我不我不

I'm I'm not

确定。

sure.

我觉得是某位达尔文。是的。牛顿和伽利略都不理解潮汐。尽管他们已经掌握了所有必要的引力知识

I think it was a Darwin. Yes. And Newton and Galileo did not understand tides. It was even though they had all the gravity necessary

是这样吗？

Is that right?

来解释它。是的。潮汐有一个微妙之处，如果你看任何教科书，任何教科书都会有，比如月球和地球，它会有一个指向月球的潮汐隆起。

To account for it. Yes. There's subtle point with tides where if you look at any textbook, any textbook, it'll have, like, the moon and Earth, and it'll have a tidal bulge pointing towards the moon.

是的。那是错的。

Yes. That's wrong.

那是错的。是的。月球不会希望那样发生。是的。但实际情况并非如此。

It's wrong. Yes. It doesn't the moon would want that to happen Yes. But that's not how it is.

是的。

Yes.

潮汐隆起是超前的。潮汐隆起在月球轨道运行方向上超前于月球。是的。明白吗？这是地球自转将潮汐推到月球前方，正是这种相互作用产生了显著的后果。

Tidal bulge is in advance. It's the tidal bulge is in advance of the moon in its orbit. Yes. Okay? And that's Earth's rotation pushing the tides ahead of the moon, and it's that interaction that has remarkable consequences.

月球正在减慢地球的自转，而地球已经减慢了月球的自转，所以它已经被潮汐锁定对我们了。

The moon is slowing down Earth's rotation, and Earth already slowed down the moon's rotate rotation, so it's tidally locked to us.

所以我们希望它被潮汐锁定。

So we'll want it be tidally locked.

我们会是双重潮汐锁定，当那发生时，潮汐就会对齐，因为我们不再把它推到月球前面了。所以必须有人把这一切都搞清楚。是的。那是另一个吸引点。谢谢，谢谢你们的支持。

We'll be double tidally locked, and when that happens, then the tides will line up because we're not be pushing it ahead of the moon. So that had to somebody had to figure all that out. Yeah. That was another draw. Thank thank you for your darlings.

你好，我是亚历山大·哈维，我在Patreon上支持StarTalk。这里是StarTalk，与尼尔·德格拉斯·泰森博士一起。那么你是从哪本书里想出'mean'这个词的？我知道是你。

Hello, I'm Alexander Harvey and I support StarTalk on Patreon. This is StarTalk with Doctor. Neil deGrasse Tyson. So which book did you came up with the word mean? I know it was you.

那是在《自私的基因》里

That was in The Selfish

那是在《自私的基因》里。是的。你创造了这个词，人们早已忘记如何...怎么...告诉我meme的正确定义，因为现在没人这么用了

That was in The Selfish Gene. Yes. You invented the word, and people long forgot how to how what how tell me the authentic definition of meme, because that's not how anybody's using it today.

文化传承的单位，相当于基因在文化传承中的角色

Unit of cultural inheritance and the analog of the gene in in cultural inheritance.

好的。所以这是...这是人与人之间传播的。是的。某些meme具有更高的传播性。是的

Okay. So this is this is communicated from one person to another. Yes. And certain memes have higher communicability. Yes.

没错

That's right.

我的意思是，我真的很想这么说，因为整本书都在讲基因作为选择单位，这就是我之前回答你时描述的方式，它不一定非是基因。可以是任何自我复制的东西。现在的话，我可能会用计算机病毒来类比基因。嗯。但在那个时候，计算机病毒，也许已经被发明出来了

I mean, I I really wanted to to say that because the whole book had been about the gene as the unit of selection, that's how I described it to when you asked me earlier, it didn't have to be genes. It could be anything that is self replicating. And nowadays, I would have used a computer virus as my analogy probably for the gene. Mhmm. But in those days, computer viruses, well, maybe they've been invented.

反正我当时不知道。所以我用了文化传承的例子。它就像是

I didn't know about them anyway. So I used the use of cultural inheritance. It's something like

所以m代表memory（记忆）。所以是记忆基因。混合词

So m a m is for memory. So memory gene. Portmanteau of

是...是这样没错。它和memory（记忆）来自同一个词根

It's it's that's right. It's it's comes from the same root as as as memory.

好的。那么如果我说，纽约市地铁里有鳄鱼

Okay. So if I say something, we have alligators in the New York City subway.

是的。如果如果那传播开来，如果那如果那传播开来，因为它是一个可重复的谎言，或者或者甚至可能是真的，不管它是什么。如果如果它传播开来

Yes. If if that spreads if that if that spreads because it's a a repeatable lie or or or even might be true, whatever it is. If if it's spreads

不管它是什么，它是什么并不重要

Whatever it is, doesn't matter what it

不重要。如果它传播开来，那么它就是一个成功的模因。

matter. If it spreads, then it's a successful meme.

因为它对我来说太有趣了。我必须告诉别人。

Because it's so interesting to me. I have to tell someone else.

正是如此。正是如此。我们喜欢讲那些让人惊讶或逗人开心的故事，不管它们是不是真的。

Exactly. Exactly. We love to tell stories, which surprise people or amuse people whether or not they're true.

好吧。所以现在，它只是一张有点酷的东西的图片。你知道吗？

Okay. So nowadays, it's just an image of something kinda cool. You know?

是的。对此我真的很抱歉。

Yes. I'm really sorry about that.

是的。不。不。我不是说那是你的错。不。

Yeah. No. No. I'm not that's not your fault. No.

但它是你已经为我们的文化做出了贡献。所以最好的模因是那些传播最广的。

But it it's you've contributed to our culture. So the best of the memes are the ones that are spread around the most.

是的。

Yes.

网上有我这样做的表情包。对吧？是的。叫什么来着？小心点。

There's a meme of me doing this. Okay? Yes. Like, I think what is it called? Watch out.

这边有个超酷的家伙。我可从没说过那句话。

You've got a badass over here. I never said that.

好吧。

Okay.

而且还有一张我这样做的照片。

And there is a picture of me doing this.

但是但是传播开了。

But but spreads.

它传播开了。南美洲有人在街上认出了我。他们是游客。他们说，我们是从表情包认识你的。这大概是十年前的事了。

It spread. And there are people in South America who saw me in the street. They were they were tourists. They said, we know you from the meme. This is like ten years ago or something.

我当时想，表情包？那甚至不是我。不知道为什么就传开了。我完全搞不懂。

I was like, the meme really? That's not even me. Why does it so somehow that spread. I don't have any understanding of it.

要我给你讲讲我的约翰·克里斯的故事吗？他当时

Should I tell you my John Cleese story about that? He was

那是什么？

What is that?

你还记得《弗尔蒂旅馆》吗？记得。记得。好的。你还记得那一集，那个，我

Do remember Faulty Towers and Yes. Yes. Okay. Do you remember the the episode of the the Well, I

不记得剧集了。现在别这样。

don't remember episodes. Come on now.

好吧。德国人。别提战争。你还记得那个吗？

Okay. The the Germans. Don't men don't mention the war. Do you remember that?

不。不。好吧。

No. No. Okay.

嗯，有一集里，一些德国人来酒店拜访，巴兹尔心想他别提那堵墙。别提那堵墙。当然，他还是提了。我记得他在慕尼黑机场，正乘扶梯上行，大厅对面很远的地方有个人正乘扶梯下行，他认出了对方，就大喊，别提那堵墙。好吧。

Well, there's there's an episode where the where some Germans visit visit the hotel, and and Basil thought he's gonna don't mention the wall. Don't don't mention the wall. And, of course, he does does mention it. And he was in, I think it was Munich Airport, and he was going up the escalator, and there was a man way over there and going down the escalator right right across the hall, and and he recognized him, he shouted, don't mention the wall. Okay.

所以那个梗就在德国传播开了。

So that meme was spreading in Germany.

好吧。所以那是自私的基因。我们继续往下说。《盲眼钟表匠》。哦。

Alright. So that's a selfish gene. So let's move ahead here. The Blind Watchmaker. Oh.

那是我最喜欢的一本你的书，好吧。如果我

That's that's my favorite book of yours, Okay. If I

钟表匠这个说法来自神学家威廉·佩利，他说一定有上帝存在，因为如果你发现一块表，你捡起那块表。他说他正穿过一片荒地。你打开它。那时候是很大的怀表。

The Watchmaker comes from William Paley, the theologian who said that there must be a god because if you find a watch, you pick out you pick up the watch. He's crossing a heath, he said. You open it up. It was a great big pocket watch in those days.

回到表还真的是表的年代。

Back when watches were watches.

是的。是的。没错。然后你看到所有的齿轮、发簧之类的东西。它必定有一位设计者。

Yes. Yes. Right. And and you see all the cog wheels and springs and things. It had to have a designer.

当然如此。那么对于眼睛、膝关节或任何生命体来说，这种设计感岂不是更加明显？这就是所谓的'苍白的钟表匠'论点。自然选择是盲目的钟表匠，它产生的结果与钟表并无二致。

Of course, it did. And so how much more would you say that of an eye or a knee joint or anything living? So that that's the pale watchmaker argument. Natural selection is the blind watchmaker. It produces results that not unlike watches.

它们设计精妙——眼睛设计精妙，虽有些许缺陷，但确实设计精妙。这些并非通过任何设计过程或有意设计产生，而是通过盲目的钟表匠——也就是自然选择——形成的。所以

They're beautifully designed, eyes are beautifully designed, certain flaws, but they are beautifully designed. And they come about not through any design process, not through any deliberate design, but through the blind watchmaker, which is natural selection. So it's

这让人们难以接受，尤其是那些有虔诚宗教信仰的人。

a So that's hard for people to accept, especially if they're deeply religious.

是的。

Yes.

因为他们已经有一套自己的解释体系。

Because they have they already have an account.

没错。

Yes.

现在你却说他们的上帝只是某种随机力量的作用，祂根本不必存在，完全不必在场。

Now you're saying that their god is some random one of the acts of their god is some random force operating. He didn't have to be there at all. He didn't have to be there at all.

是的。

Yes.

我认为人们的困惑在于——甚至我们的一些同行也犯过这个错误。弗雷德·霍伊尔，稳态宇宙论的奠基人，他轻蔑地创造了'大爆炸'这个词来描述宇宙始于奇点。他用这个称呼是带着贬义的，因为他希望宇宙是稳态的。他计算过形成一个功能完整的眼睛需要多长时间，结果得出一个天文数字——考虑到基因组突变率，需要10的很多次方年。

And I think where people get confused is and even some of our people have made this mistake. Fred Hoyle, who was the architect of the steady state universe, who pejoratively invented the name Big Bang to describe the universe beginning in one point. He said that in a pejorative way. He wanted the universe to be a steady state. He did a calculation for how you would get an eye, a fully functioning eye, and how long that would take, and it was some impossibly, you know, 10 to the some very high power number of years given the rate at which you have defects in a in a in a in a genome.

是的。如果我说错了请纠正——对这个论点的反驳是：自然选择并非完全随机。

Yeah. And what correct me if I'm wrong, the the rebuttal to that is natural selection is not completely random.

嗯，不。没错。它实际上不是眼睛。它是一个血红蛋白分子，但这是

Well, no. That's right. It it actually wasn't an eye. It was a it was a hemoglobin molecule, but it's the

这是

it's the

同样的论点。他所忽视的是，这不是一蹴而就的。他想象所有部分随机地组合在一起。

same argument anyways. It what what he overlooked was that it doesn't happen all in one go. He he imagined all the bits coming together at random.

这是一个行不通的情况，还有另一个随机的东西也行不通。是的。然后你永远这样重复下去。

And that's one case that doesn't work, and it has another random thing that doesn't work. Yes. And you do that forever.

永远这样重复。当然，不，不。但你需要的是——让我们用眼睛来举例，尽管他没有。你需要一个稍微差一点的眼睛，然后更差一点的眼睛，再更差一点的眼睛。

You that forever. Of course, want no. No. But but what what you need is let's let's use the eye, even though he didn't. You need a slightly less good eye, or then a slightly less good eye, and a slightly less good eye.

如果你开始时只是一片光敏细胞，只能检测是亮还是暗，那就有用。它比没有要好。比没有要好。

If you start with just a sheet of light sensitive cells, which just detect whether it's light or dark, that's useful. It's not light Better than not having it. Than not having it.

你可以

You can

分辨是夜晚还是白天。你可以判断是否有捕食者飞过头顶。然后，如果你有一个稍微杯状的，如果你把视网膜从扁平弯曲成浅杯状，那么如果光线来自那个方向，它会击中那一侧，这样你得到的不是图像，但它提供了

tell when when it's night or day. You can tell whether there's a predator flying overhead. And then if you have a a slightly cup shaped, if you if you bend that retina from a flat thing into a slight cup, then if it's coming from that direction, it hits that side of and so you get it's not an image, but it but it gives a

嗯。轻微的

Mhmm. Slight

嗯。然后你闭合起来，开始形成针孔相机。它非常粗糙，失焦，但算是一种图像。然后你需要一点透明的胶状物在里面。它不是真正的晶状体，但起到类似晶状体的作用。

Mhmm. And then and you close-up and you start to get a pinhole camera. It's a very crude, it's out of focus, but it's sort of an image. And then you need a little bit of transparent gunk in there. It's not a proper lens, but it does something like a lens.

所有这些阶段，一步一步地，它们逐步地、渐进地改进。

And all these stages, one by one, they step by step, they incrementally improve.

而每一次改进都是那一代变异的新起点。

And every improvement is the new starting place for the variations at that generation.

没错。然后然后你得到因为

That's right. Then and then you get because

每一代都不是从零开始的。

every generation is not starting from zero.

没错。是的。好的。是的。

That's right. Yes. Okay. Yes.

所以《盲眼钟表匠》这本书，我觉得写得非常精彩，它成了我的标杆——如果我有朝一日要为公众写书，我希望也能如此表达清晰。

So so The Blind Watchmaker, I I just thought that was brilliantly written, and it was my benchmark for if I were to ever write a book for the public, I wanna be this articulate.

哦，哇。这么高的评价，尼尔。谢谢你

Oh, wow. That's high praise, Neil. Thank just you

希望你知道这一点。

for want you to know that.

为此谢谢你。

Thank you for that.

好吗？就让记录显示吧。让我直接跳到他那里。哦，我喜欢这个。一个攀登可能之山。

Okay? Just let let the record show. And let me just skip coming to him. Oh, I like this. A climbing mountain probable.

嗯，这正是我们刚才讨论的内容。

So Well, that's what we've just been talking about.

是的。

Yes.

山岳的比喻或许就是这个意思。给我描述一下：这是一个隐喻，有一座陡峭悬崖的山，垂直的峭壁，崖顶有一只眼睛。要在弗雷德·霍伊尔的庄园里创造出这只眼睛，就相当于从崖底一跃直达顶端

Mountain probable is Just that metaphor. Describe it to me. It's a metaphor where you've got a a mountain with a sheer cliff, a vertical cliff, and on the top of the cliff is an eye. And to produce the eye in the Fred Hoyle Manor would be to leap from the bottom of the cliff to the top in one

一蹴而就。

in one go.

你无法直接做到。但你可以绕到山的另一侧，发现一个平缓的斜坡，于是你一步步攀登，最终抵达顶峰。

You cannot do do it. But you go around the other side of the mountain, and you find a nice gentle slope, and so you just climb step by step, and you and you get reach the summit.

明白了。所以如果你认为它是一下子形成的，当然会发明出一个神，因为

Okay. So so if you think it got there in one fell swoop, there's no of course, you're gonna invent a god because what

没错。

That's right.

却没想到还存在其他途径。

But not imagining that there's another way.

是的。

Yes.

你困在一种宗教哲学与其他任何哲学的对立中。是的。好的。明白了。

You're stuck in one religious philosophy versus any other philosophy. Yes. Okay. Alright. Got that.

关于这本《解析彩虹》，有很多相关讨论。跟我讲讲这个吧。

And this one, much was written about unweaving the rainbow. So tell me about that.

好的。

Okay.

那本书我们现在讲到1998年了。

That was we're up to nineteen ninety eight now.

这个说法源自济慈。

That comes from Keats.

我之前不知道这个。

I did not know that.

济慈曾抱怨牛顿通过解释彩虹破坏了其全部诗意，而我的观点——这也是你经常强调的——其实是真正理解光谱反而蕴含着更丰富的诗意。

Keats complained about Newton spoiling all the poetry of the rainbow by explaining it, and so my my point was a point which you've made often enough that actually, there's far more poetry in really understanding the spectrum.

所以我之前告诉过你吗？你还记得有个YouTube视频吗？我忘了标题，就叫'双彩虹哥'。你看过这个吗？

So I'd did I tell you this? Do you remember there was this it was on YouTube. I I forgot the title. It was just called Double Rainbow Guy. Have you ever seen this?

没看过？双彩虹啊。你真该去看看。

No. Double Rainbow. You got you should check it out.

好的。

Okay.

好的。那时候社交媒体还只是人们分享内容的地方，不像现在这样是个污水池。对。当时他正在某处徒步，那时候拍视频还需要摄像机呢，对，不是手机，不是iPhone，也不是智能手机。

Okay. This is now back when social media was just people posting things, it wasn't the cesspool that it is today. Yes. So he was hiking somewhere to some guy back when you you needed a camcorder to take videos Yeah. Not a cell phone, not a iPhone, a smartphone.

他正在徒步旅行，是在马德雷山脉吗？我不记得具体地点了。你听到他像是在叙述他的——哦，那个澄清器真不错。然后他转过一个弯，说道，哦，一道彩虹。我的天哪。

He's hiking in the was it Sierra Madres? I don't remember where. And he's you hear him sort of narrating his oh, that's a nice that clarifier. Then he turns a corner, and he says, oh, a rainbow. Oh my gosh.

这这能意味着什么？哦，是双彩虹。我的天哪。他哭了——你看不到他，但你能轻易感受到他的情绪和呼吸。然后他俯伏在地。

What what could it mean? Oh, a double rainbow. Oh my gosh. And he's tearing you don't see him, but you can easily interpret just his emotions and his breath. And then he goes prostrate to the ground.

是的。而且他无法控制自己。这意味着什么？这是一个征兆。所以我这样做感到有些愧疚。

Yes. And and he he can't contain himself. What does it mean? This is a sign. And so I I felt bad doing this.

你们可能会为我骄傲，但我这样做感到愧疚。我发了推文。我分享了这个视频的链接，并说，这就是你没学过物理时的行为表现。是的。但我觉得这有点刻薄。

You might be proud of me, but I felt bad doing this. I I tweeted. I put a link to this to this video, and I said, this is how you behave if you've never studied physics. Yes. But I thought that was kinda mean.

他正沉浸在他的时刻里。

He's having his moment.

嗯，在某种程度上，济慈所做的就是这样，而且那就是

Well, in a way, that's what Keats was doing, and and that's

对牛顿。

To Newton.

是的，没错。但不管怎样，我可以用一个相反方向的故事盖过你的。我读到一个关于加州一位女士的故事。她有一个草坪洒水器，看到洒水器喷出的彩虹，她说，他们在对我们的供水做什么？

Yes. That's right. But anyway, I can cap your story in the opposite direction. I read a story about a woman in California. She had a a lawn sprinkler, and she saw a rainbow in the lawn sprinkler, and she said, what are they doing to our water supply?

真有趣。我的天哪。是啊。这得看情况。好吧。

That's funny. Oh my gosh. Yeah. It depends. So alright.

所以她完全错过了彩虹的所有美丽。是啊。好吧。他们是在往里面加颜色。我之前不知道济慈对牛顿有那样的评价，因为牛顿，是的，他解码了彩虹。

So she missed all the beauty of the rainbow. Yeah. Okay. And they're putting colors in the in the thing. So I did not know that that that Keats had that to say about Newton, because Newton, yeah, he decoded the rainbow.

是的。那就是他的专长。

Yes. And that was what That was his thing.

没错。就是

Yeah. It's what

他做的事。

he did.

他的专长之一。

One of his things.

哦对了，你提到眼睛多么美丽，即使有些瑕疵。作为天体物理学家，我很早就学到这个，实际上是在中学时在海登天文馆上课时，那时我了解了整个电磁波谱，而可见光部分只占很小一部分。它甚至不是一个完整的八度

Oh, by the way, you mentioned how beautiful the eye is, even with some flaws. As an astrophysicist, when I would learn this very early, when I took classes here, actually, when I was in middle school at the Hayden Planetarium, that's when I learned about the entire electromagnetic spectrum, and that the visible part of the spectrum is Yes. It's not even a full octave

没错。

That's right.

在所有存在的频谱中。然后我对自己的视力感到失望。我说，这就是大自然最好的设计吗

Of the of what's out And then I was just disappointed with my sight. I said, is this the best nature

为什么要谈论X射线？

Why talk about the x rays?

你知道吗，让我回到正题看看还有什么。后来在《星际迷航：下一代》中，有个角色叫乔迪，他要么天生失明要么后来失明了，他们给他戴上了这个VISOR，v i s o r，是个缩写，视觉仪器站点器官替代装置，但戴上它后，他能看到所有波长的光。是的。所以他们让他观察场景，这里X射线很强，那里某种波长很强，是的。然后我担心，如果你能看到所有波段的光，那视觉上会非常嘈杂，不是吗？

This you know, you know, let me go back in line and see what else is there. And later on in Star Trek the next generation, there'd be a character called Geordie, who either he was born without sight or he went blind, and they he had this VISOR, v I s o r, which was an acronym, Visual Instrument Site Organ Replacement, but with it, he sees all wavelengths of light. Yes. And so they get him to look at scenes that they're It's coming high in x rays, it's high in this, it's Yes. High in And then I worried that if you could see all bands of light, that would be very visually noisy, wouldn't it?

是的。我的意思是，如果你能一直看到无线电波，那里你根本看不到...我是说

Yes. I mean, if you see right through to radio waves, where you wouldn't I mean

那么，一切就变得透明了。

Well, then everything becomes transparent.

长波长。是的。

Long wavelengths. Yes.

然后，然后这个，这个办公室里没有墙。你

Then then this there are no walls in this office. You

就看不见东西了。没错。

wouldn't see things. That's right.

是的。所以那会是一种奇怪的——我的意思是，要在实践中拥有这种能力，我认为理想情况下你会调节它。你会有一个小小的调节器，这样你就可以瞄准。

Yeah. So that'd be a weird I mean, to to have that power in practice, I think ideally you would tune it. You would you would have a little tuner so that you can target.

是的。实际上，这样你就可以跨范围瞄准。在《上帝的错觉》那本书里，我想是最后一章，我说过我敢打赌我提出了你的观点，即这个可见光谱是如此微小。科学打开了那个光谱。是的。

Yes. Actually So that you can target across. In the God Delusion, the last chapter I think, I said that the I bet I made your point about this visible spectrum being so tiny. Science opens up that spectrum. Yes.

而且它会

And It would be

就像听到贝多芬的第九交响曲只在一个八度内演奏一样，在是的中间。那

like hearing Beethoven's ninth symphony played in one octave in the middle of Yes. The

是的。没错。就是这样。

Yeah. Yes. That's right.

你创造了这个术语，我们甚至一起以这个标题登台演出过，《现实的诗意》，我完全赞同，但如果你真的是一位诗人，那么肯定有些现实的部分最好由诗人来表达。你同意吗？

You've coined this term, and we've even appeared on stage together under this title, The Poetry of Reality, and I'm all in, but if you're actually a poet, then surely there are parts of reality that are best expressed by a poet. Would you agree?

我想是的。我一直不太明白，我的意思是，我我我不写诗，但我觉得，像你一样，我也试图同时唤起情感

I suppose so. I've never quite understood I mean, I I I don't write verse, but I suppose, like you, I try to evoke emotion at the same time

否则，它就是个维基页面。

as Otherwise, it's a wiki page.

是的。没错。你想要总结...而我我我不完全清楚你所说的诗意是什么意思。我直觉上似乎明白，但无法准确用语言表达。也许这并非偶然。

Yes. Right. You wanna you wanna sum And I I I'm not entirely clear what what what you mean by poetic. I sort of feel intuitively I know what it means, but I can't quite put into words. Maybe that's no accident.

但没错，我在心里捍卫这个观点：科学是现实的诗篇。它让我感受到诗意。我认为它也让你感受到诗意。

But yes, I defend in my own mind the idea that science is the poetry of reality. It makes me feel poetic. And I think it makes you feel poetic.

所以从那个层面来说可能有点自我服务。重要的是能否说服他人也有同感，否则就只是自我陶醉。

So it might be self serving on that level. What would matter if others can be convinced of the same, because otherwise it's just a self licking ice cream cone.

没错。但如果你擅长写作，我认为你可以带动他人一起感受。

That's right. And if but if you're if you're skilled in writing, I think you can bring others with you.

所以我对诗歌有自己的评价标准。我想和你分享并听听你的反应。对我来说，诗歌，更广泛地说艺术，最好的作用是凸显那些你可能会忽略或从未注意到的事物。我最喜欢的例子是1969年我们登月后，大概是7月，《纽约时报》有个特别版面，刊登了人们对登月这一事实的反应，当时所有著名诗人都在列。有阿奇博尔德·麦克利什，还有那些承载着当时创意表达灵魂的人物，我读了这些诗。

So I have my own valuation of poetry. I'd share it with you and get your reaction to it. For me, poetry, art more broadly, best serves us when it highlights something you might have otherwise missed or never noticed. My best example of that was July was it, after we landed on the moon in 1969, the New York Times had a special section, people reacting to the fact that we walked on the moon, and there were these all these famous poets of the day. It was Archibald McLeish, and, you know, people who who carried the soul of creative expression in the day, and I read these poems.

它们糟透了。都是什么'我们刺破天空触摸天际'之类的，我觉得这些都比不上登月行动本身伟大。所以也许我不需要艺术家来为我诠释这个。也许我需要他们来诠释我路过的那棵树。然后你会想到乔伊斯·基尔默的诗《树》——'我永远不会看到比树更可爱的东西'。

They were awful. They're we pierced the sky and touched the sky, and I'm thinking none of this is greater than the act of walking on the moon itself. So maybe I don't need artists to interpret that for me. Maybe I need them to interpret the tree that I'm walking by, Then you get Joyce Kilmer's poem, The Tree. I will never see something as lovely as a tree.

'手臂伸向天空'。美国诗歌中有朗费罗，亨利·沃兹沃斯·朗费罗，他写了《保罗·里维尔的午夜骑行》。这可能不被誉为伟大诗篇，但在美国我们都熟知它。那是一首关于一个告诉别人敌人要来的人的诗？那是个重要人物吗？

Arms pressed to the sky. There's in American poetry, American Longfellow, Henry Wadsford Longfellow, who wrote the midnight ride of Paul Revere. That might not be heralded as great poetry, but we all know it here in America. And that's a poem about a guy who told other people that the enemy was coming? Is that an important person?

不。然而我们都知道这个人的名字，因为有一首关于他的诗。在世界历史上任何其他战争中，你都不知道对应的这样一个报信人。那个告诉别人敌人要来的人。那本不该是个留名青史的人物。

No. Yet we all know that person's name because it's a poem about him. You do not know that corresponding person for any other war that has ever been fought in the history of the world. The person who told other people that the enemy was coming. That is not a person.

但对我们来说，是因为那是一首关于他的诗。那是一个原本会被遗忘的人。所以对我来说，艺术最棒的地方就在于捕捉这一点。我不需要艺术家说，哦，我看到了这张哈勃照片？然后画一幅哈勃照片的画。

But for us, it is because it was a poem about him. It was somebody who would otherwise go forgotten. So for me, art is best when it captures that. I don't need I don't need artists saying, oh, I saw this Hubble photo? Here's my painting of that Hubble photo.

我不需要那样，因为我已经有了哈勃照片。好吧。给我一个科学无法提供的视角，然后我们就能在沙盒里一起玩耍了。这就是我的看法。

I don't need that because I got the Hubble photo. Okay. Give me a point of view that science does not give me, then we can hang out together in the sandbox. That's how I feel about it.

好的。你提到的那首关于树的诗，那是一首宗教诗。我的意思是

Okay. The tree poem you mentioned, that's a religious poem. I mean

嗯，是

Well, did

只有上帝能造出一棵树。

Only God can make a tree.

在结尾处，但不是。上帝啊，得了吧，上帝。上帝只是文化的一部分。所以

At the end, but no. God come on, God. The God was just in the culture. So

是的。好吧。

Yes. Okay.

当你说再见时，如果那源自上帝，它算是宗教性的吗

Is it religious when you say goodbye when that's draws from God

与之同在 它是

being with It's

只是一种文化表达。想想

just a cultural expression. Think of

卡尔·萨根的章节标题。你你可能帮过我。我是说，它们它们激励着我。每一个他的章节标题都如此。

Carl Sagan's chapter headings. You you probably helped me with this. I mean, they they inspire me. Just just every single one of his chapter headings.

是的。顺便说一下，他的

Yes. And by the way, his

那是‘夜之脊骨’吗？

Is that bone of night?

他的遗孀是的。安·德鲁扬，她本人也极富文学修养，并且是合著者

His widow Yes. Andruian, who is highly literate unto herself and co author

是的。

Yes.

所有三部宇宙系列，甚至我有幸主持过的那两部，她都是那种诗意声音的主要推动力。我只是想给予应有的肯定。是的。安·德鲁扬

Of all three cosmoses, even the two that I Yes. Had the privilege of hosting, she was a major force in that poetic voice. I just wanna give credit Yes. Where that's due there. Endri

还有是的。

and Yes.

是的，那些章节标题投入了大量的思考。贯穿

Yes, the a lot of thought goes into those checker Across

夜之脊骨，我是说，那那是一个诗意的短语。它立刻打动了我。我看到了银河。我不确定我是否本意如此。我猜我试图做类似的事情，至少在我的一些书中是这样。

the backbone of night, I mean, that that is a poetic phrase. It immediately speaks to me. I see the Milky Way. I'm not sure I meant to. And and I guess I try to do something similar, at least in some of my books.

好的。

Okay.

好的。我读到第2004页，《祖先的故事》。这个书名让我想起了萨根的书《被遗忘祖先的阴影》。是的。感觉有点像。是的。

Alright. I'm up to 2,004, The Ancestor's Tale. That is a title that reminds me of the Sagan book, Shadows of Forgotten Ancestors. Yes. It it kinda feels the same Yes.

对我来说。那么《祖先的故事》讲了什么？

To me. To and what happened in Ancestors' Tale?

嗯，这是这是对乔叟的引用。哦，好吧。《坎特伯雷故事集》。但其中

Well, it's it's a it's a reference to Chaucer. Oh, okay. Canterbury Tales. It's But one

一个故事不是关于祖先的。不。不。不。哦，你只是这是《磨坊主的故事》，

of his tales was not the ancestor. No. No. No. Oh, you just It's it's The Miller's tale,

然后

and then

我想是祖先的故事。

I think the ancestor's tale.

这是一部生命史，但是倒着讲的。所以它采用朝圣的形式，索绪尔式的朝圣，逆时间而行。我们人类朝圣者向过去进发，然后黑猩猩朝圣者加入，接着是大猩猩朝圣者

It's a history of life, but it's going backwards. So it's it's the form of a pilgrimage, Saussurean pilgrimage going backwards in time. So we human pilgrims set off into the past, and we're joined by the chimpanzee pilgrims and then the Iran, then the gorilla pilgrims

我喜欢这个构思。

I love that.

最终我们回到生命的起源。所以这是一种讲述生命史的方式，但倒着讲是因为如果顺着讲，就会让人觉得人类是某种高潮，这是你不想要的。我的意思是，这不是一个好的视角。所以如果你倒着走，你从

Then we finally get back to the origin of life. So it's a way of doing the history of life, but do it backwards because if you do it forwards, then you end up with the idea that humans are kind of the climax, which you don't want. I mean, that's not a good way of looking at it. So if you go backwards, and you start

好的。那个我刚才还在质疑你，但这太棒了。太棒了。谢谢你告诉我，我现在要去读这本书了。好吗？

Okay. That's I I was getting on your case, but that's brilliant. Brilliant. Thanks for delivering I'm gonna now read that. Okay?

很好。因为那个，我漏掉了那个。这本我们都见过且知道的书，不管我们是否读过——《上帝错觉》。那是2006年2月出版的。这让你达到了同样的高度，让你被认定为四骑士之一。

Good. Because that well, I missed that one. Here's one we all saw and know about whether or not we read it, The God Delusion. That's 02/2006. That puts you in the same plateau as that puts you on a plateau to be identified as one of the four horsemen.

哦，对。是的。

Oh, right. Yes.

好的。

Okay.

这不是我们中任何人实际使用的说法

Not not a phrase that that any of us actually

这是被赋予你们的称号？是的。没错。所以是丹尼尔·丹尼特、克里斯托弗·希钦斯。

It was bestowed upon you? Yes. Yeah. So it Daniel Dannett, Christopher Hicken Hitchens.

山姆·哈里斯。

Sam Harris.

其中两位已经去世了。山姆·哈里斯和你。是的。好的。这四位骑士都曾非常直言不讳地表达他们的无神论立场。

And both of them are passed. Sam Harris and you. Yes. Okay. The Four Horsemen who have each been quite vocal about their atheism.

是的。而《上帝错觉》，如果这还不算无神论，那我就不知道什么才是了。

Yes. And The God Delusion, if that's not atheist, I don't know what is.

确实是。没错。

It is. Yes.

就在书名里。

In the title.

是的。

Yes.

对。所以我们之前聊过这本书。你不是说过有些宗教团体希望人们读它，以便他们认识敌人的面目吗？是这样吗？

Right. So so we spoke about this book before. Didn't you say there were religious groups that wanted people to read it so that they know the face of their enemy? Was that?

我忘了。很有可能。有些人说他们是被这本书转化皈依宗教的

I forget. It's quite possible. There are some people who say they were converted to religion by

真的吗？

it. Really?

我不太确定他们是怎么得出这个结论的。这对我的说服技巧可不太有利。

I'm not quite sure how they managed to get that. Doesn't say much for my rhetorical skills.

那么《上帝错觉》是你销量最大的书吗？

So is this your single biggest selling book, The God Delusion?

是的。差不多。是的。嗯。它可能和《自私的基因》销量相当。

Yes. Just about. Yes. Yeah. It was equal as a selfish gene, maybe.

是啊。我是说，而且，你还有——我在认识你的第一天就批评过你，我觉得在这里值得再提一次。是的。我认识你的第一天。

Yeah. Yeah. I mean plus, you have you and I've I've taken you to task on the very first day I met you, and it I think it's worth repeating here. Yes. The first day I ever knew you.

就像我说的，我读过你的书，而且，是的，是的，我渴望拥有你那信手拈来的词汇量。我在一群人面前批评了你。那是在一个——那个会议叫什么名字？一个'超越信仰'会议

Again, like I said, I'd read your books, and, yeah, yeah, I aspired to have the vocabulary, the command of vocabulary that you that spills off your plate. I took you to task in the front of a group. It was it was one of the what's the name of that conference? A Beyond Belief conference

哦，是的。

Oh, yes.

那次聚集了

Which gathered

哦，是的。

Oh, yes.

没错。那次聚集了科学家、生物学家、神学家是的。哲学家是的。会议的目的是讨论：我们是否已经进入了一个超越信仰重要性的时代？是的。

That's right. Which gathered scientists, biologists, theologians Yes. Philosophers Yes. And it was to discuss, are we in an era beyond where belief matters? Yes.

信仰还重要吗？是的。所以这真是一种鲜明的对比

Does belief still matter? Yes. So it was quite the juxtaposition

是啊。

Yeah.

各种观点的对比。你我当时在台上一个小组里。还有另外两个人，我听了你的发言。我之前只读过你写的东西，但听了你的现场发言。它比你写过的任何文字都更加清晰有力、更加尖锐。

Of points of view. You and I are up up on front in a panel. Two other people are there, and I heard you speak. I'd only ever read what you wrote, and I heard you speak. It was more articulate and more barbed than anything I'd ever read that you had written.

我当时想，天啊。真高兴我们是同一阵线的，因为如果你那样对我说，我会觉得自己像个彻头彻尾的白痴。我会觉得自己不配活着。然后我想到，你的影响力太强大了。这是否会让人们反感，因为他们拒绝接受？

And I said, oh my gosh. I'm glad we are on the same side because if you had spoke to me, I'd feel like a complete idiot. I would feel not worthy of life. And then I thought, you are so potent. Is this turning people off because they reject it?

因为你没有考虑他们的思维方式。每个人接收信息都有自己的一套接收器。如果你只是说：我是对的，我知道我是对的，而你们都是错的，你们都是白痴，那可能达不到最佳效果。所以我挑战你，希望你对那些只是试图探索世界的人更敏感一些，这样你可以比现在更有效。你还记得你是怎么回复我的吗？

Because you are not investing in how they think. Everybody has little receptors for receiving information. And if you're just going to say, I'm right, and I know I'm right, and you all are just wrong, you're idiots, maybe that's not as effective as you can be. So I challenged you to to be a little more sensitive to people who are just trying to explore the world, and that you could be more effective than you are. Do you remember you replied to me?

我说，我感激地接受这个批评。

I said, I gratefully accept the rebuke.

是的。顺便说一句，那一刻，现场沉默了大概五秒钟，因为我只是个初出茅庐的年轻人，而你已经是享誉盛名的人物。全场鸦雀无声。

Yeah. By the way, in that moment, there was, like, five seconds of silence, because I'm just some young whippersnapper, and you're, like, story famous guy on stage. Nobody made a sound.

他们笑了。不。不。不。

They laughed. No. No. No.

不。不。就在那片寂静中，大家在想他会如何反应？那是那种时刻，他会说什么？是的。

No. No. Just in that moment of silence is, how is he gonna react? It was one of these, what's he gonna say? Yeah.

那一刻，全场鸦雀无声，然后你打破了沉默

In that moment, it was total silence, and then you broke the silence with

我感激地接受批评。是的。

I gratefully accept the rebuke. Yes.

然后人们都...是的。之后人们就平静下来了。

And then people were Yes. People got were calmed after that.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。你还举了个更糟的例子。是什么来着？你还记得吗？那位编辑

Yes. And you gave a worse example. What was it? Do you remember? The editor

哦，对。《新科学家》的编辑，有人问他：《新科学家》杂志的政策是什么？他说：我们《新科学家》杂志的政策是科学很有趣。如果你不同意，你可以滚蛋。

Oh, yeah. The editor of New Scientist who who was asked, what is your policy at New Scientist magazine? And he said, our policy at New Scientist magazine is science is interesting. If you don't agree, you can off.

所以那个例子，让我们觉得你还算好的。

So that was, so that's so we could feel better about you.

是的。就是

Yeah. That's