卡尔·范维克谈南非70万地点的比特币支付 | SLP702

我知道当我说这话时人们都觉得我疯了，但我们想要建立类似Visa和万事达的替代方案。

I know people tell me I'm crazy when I say this, but we want to establish, like, the alternative to Visa and Mastercard.

我们正致力于构建信用卡支付体系的替代方案，并全力推动这条新轨道基于比特币闪电网络运行。

We're positioning ourselves to build an alternative rail to card, and we're promoting, as hard as possible for that trail to be a Bitcoin Lightning based trail.

如果我们不把比特币当作货币使用，那么整个系统本质上就会围绕一个观念自我构建——比特币只是人们持有而从不实际使用的东西。

If we don't use Bitcoin as money, then the whole system that we're in essentially configures itself around the notion that Bitcoin is only something that people hold onto and they never actually use.

他们从不真正流通比特币，这是个严重问题。

They never actually move it around, and that's a big problem.

大家好，欢迎回到Stefan Lovera的播客节目。

Hi, everyone, and welcome back to Stefan Lovera podcast.

我们将讨论一些关于交易媒介和使用比特币支付的非常有趣的新闻。

We're gonna be chatting about some really interesting news on medium of exchange and using Bitcoin as payment.

我想你们可能已经看到的最大头条数据是：理论上现在已有超过70万家商户可以接受比特币支付，而推动这一进程的关键人物之一是Money Badger的Carole van Viejk。

I think probably the big headline number you people might have seen is it's now theoretically possible for over 700,000 merchants to accept Bitcoin, and one of the men helping make this happen or, one of the men behind making this happen is Carole van Viejk.

希望我没念错名字。

I hope I pronounced that correctly, from Money Badger.

Carole，首先欢迎来到节目。

Carole, first of all, welcome to the show.

谢谢你，Stefan。

Thank you, Stefan.

我想指出是70万个地点，不是70万商户。

I just wanna point out that 700, locations, so not 700 merchants.

我们明白...哦抱歉。

We get that Oh, sorry.

好的。

Okay.

明白了。

Gotcha.

对。

Yep.

是的。

Yes.

没问题。

Not a problem.

没错。

Yeah.

我想我们是的。

I guess we're yeah.

只是为了得到正确的数字。

Just to get the right number.

70万个地点，你都可以用比特币支付。

700,000 locations, at which you can, pay with Bitcoin.

我知道你接触比特币有一段时间了。

So, I know you've been around Bitcoin for a little while.

早期你是Luno的联合创始人，我相信你已经在这个领域待了很久。

You were a cofounder of Luno, back in the early days, and then I believe you've you've been around, you know, for a while.

在开始MoneyBadger现在的工作之前，能简单介绍一下你自己吗？

Do wanna just give us a quick, kinda overview on yourself before you came to doing what you're doing now with MoneyBadger?

嗯。

Mhmm.

看。

Look.

对我来说，我是一名工程师和软件开发人员，成长于互联网崛起的时代，见证了像马克·沙特尔沃思这样的南非科技偶像的涌现。

I think, for me for me, I'm an engineer and a software developer, and I grew up in the age of, you know, the rise of the Internet and, South African tech idols like Mark Shuttleworth and the like.

因此我一直对开源软件和这种全球网络或全球生态系统的概念怀有深深的敬意。

So I've always had this deep appreciation for open source software and this notion of sort of a global network or a global ecosystem.

所以当比特币白皮书出现时，我读到这份文件后感到非常震撼，因为它与我长期以来的许多想法不谋而合。

And so when Bitcoin arrived, when the white paper arrived and I read this thing, I was like, I was really blown away because it already matched a lot of things I've been thinking about for a long time before it.

这类事物你原以为只存在于科幻中，直到发现它真实存在。

And it's one of those things that you believe is sci fi until you realize that it actually exists.

这就是我的背景。

And so that's kind of my background.

正因如此，我一直渴望创造新事物，特别是那些能与现实世界接轨的东西。

And as a part of that, I've always wanted to build new things, especially things that, you know, interface with the real world.

而货币正是这样的存在——比特币完美融合了数字世界与现实世界。

And money is one of those things that's like, like Bitcoin is this perfect overlap between the digital world and the real world.

这始终是让我兴奋不已的领域，我一直想在这个领域进行创造。

And so that's something that's always excited me enough, Always wanted to build stuff in the space.

幸运的是，我已经获得了一些机会。

And luckily, I've had a couple of opportunities.

就像你说的，Luno。

Like you say, Luno.

Luno是南非首家比特币交易所。

Luno was the first Bitcoin exchange in South Africa.

它现在是非洲最大的本土交易所之一，可以说是土生土长的非洲平台。

It's now one of the largest exchanges in Africa that's, like, natively African.

还有Money Badger。

And Money Badger.

Money Badger将比特币作为价值存储的理念更进一步，延伸到了交易媒介的概念。

So Money Badger takes this whole idea of Bitcoin, which is a store of value, one step further to the medium of exchange concept.

我们的理念是让Money Badger尝试将比特币变成真正的货币。

And so the idea is that Money Badger tries to make Bitcoin money.

这就是为什么我们大力推动新增商户接受比特币支付，我们认为这对比特币的未来至关重要，尤其是在南非——我们与金钱的关系可能和世界其他地区的人们有些不同。

That's why we're pushing so hard to add so many new stores and new merchants and places to accept Bitcoin because we think that's vital for the future of Bitcoin, especially in South Africa where our relationship with money may be a little bit different from people elsewhere in the world.

明白了。

Gotcha.

能给我们简单介绍一下Money Badger的发展历程吗？从创立到现在经历了哪些阶段？

And so give us a bit of an overview, when did Money Badger start and sort of a bit of the journey up from when it started to now?

是的。

Yeah.

这段历程，或许可以形容为是在中本聪的神圣指引下前行的。

Journey, it's one of those things like I can only describe it as maybe guided by the divine hand of Satoshi, if I can put it like that.

确实是在正确的时间出现在了正确的地点。

It really was being at the right place at the right time.

就像我说的，我一直在为Luno做相关的工作。

So like I said, I've been working on stuff for Luno.

我其实在Luno平台买了一些商户支付相关的东西。

I actually bought some merchant payment stuff at Luno.

作为项目的一部分，我们与非洲最大的连锁超市之一合作。

And as part of that, we had a project with one of the largest African retailers grocery stores.

就是说，如果你在美国可能是沃尔玛，在英国可能是...

So like, I mean, if you're in The US maybe it's like Walmart or what would you have in the in The UK maybe like

噢我大概知道，是的

oh I I would know yeah

我的意思是我不是来自...

I mean I'm not from

英国，我自己是澳大利亚人，但可能知道像乐购这样的超市，我猜的。

The UK I'm Australian myself but I don't maybe know like a Tesco or something like that as I'm guessing.

类似这样的。

Something like that.

我不确定。

I don't know.

我猜是这些大型超市之一吧。

One of these big supermarket shops, I'm guessing.

没错。

Exactly.

这家名为Pick n Pay的大型连锁超市找到Luna，表示想增加比特币支付。

This big supermarket chain called Pick n Pay approached Luna and said we want to add Bitcoin payments.

很多人问我们是怎么促成与这家零售商的合作的。

A lot of people ask us how did you arrange for this retailer?

事实很简单，他们就是想要这个。

And the fact is just simply that they wanted this.

他们想展示技术栈的能力。

They wanted to demonstrate the capabilities of the technology stack.

他们实现这一目标的方式之一就是决定加入比特币——这种疯狂的新型未来货币。

And one of the ways they could do this was to say, well, let's add Bitcoin, which is this crazy new future form of money.

但结果失败了。

And it didn't work.

那是在2017年。

So this was 2017.

当时闪电网络还没出现。

We didn't have Lightning yet.

众所周知，链上交易费用可能很高，特别是在快速收银场景中根本行不通。

And as you know, on chain transactions, they can get expensive, and especially in like a rapid point of sale checkout scenario, it didn't work.

后来我离开了雷诺市。

And then subsequently, I've left Reno.

我开始研究闪电网络和其他Lattoo技术，结果发现我们遇到的所有问题都被闪电协议解决了。

I started playing with the Lightning, other Lattoo things, and it turned out that all the problems that we faced were solved with the Lightning protocol.

不仅是速度和成本问题，还包括协议本身自带的控制特性。

Not only the speed and the cost, but also sort of the control that's sort of native to the protocol.

后来恰巧Pick n Pay又给我打电话问：'有什么新进展吗？'

And then it just happened that Pick n Pay gave me another ring on the phone and said, hey, has anything changed?

我回答：'当然，我们现在有了一套肯定能行的方案。'

And I said, absolutely, I think we've got something now that will definitely work.

我们构建了一个概念验证，先在一家商店部署测试，效果非常出色，随后推广到了多家测试商店。

We built a POC, deployed it to one store, tested it, worked phenomenally well, deployed to a number of test stores.

其中一家位于名为莫塞尔湾的小型海滨小镇。

One of them is in a little coastal town called Mossel Bay.

可能有些人听说过比特币海滩项目，莫塞尔湾也有个类似项目叫Bitcoinikasi。

Maybe some people have heard about sort of the Bitcoin Beach project, or Mussel Bay is an equivalent Bitcoin Beach project called Bitcoinikasi.

这些只是为了测试这个系统。

They are just to test this thing.

长期听众会知道，我曾与Bitcoin Akasi的赫尔曼做过一期节目，但你已经不在那里了。

And listen, long term listeners would know I've done an episode with Herman from Bitcoin Akasi, but you're gone.

是的。

Yeah.

这里的人非常棒。

Fantastic people here.

他们给予我们极大帮助，协助我们完善系统并使其良好运行。

They were so helpful to help us, like, figure this out and make it work really well.

剩下的，我想，就是历史了。

And the rest, I guess, is history.

我们在2023年将该项目推广到全国，随后又新增了许多其他商店、零售商和支付服务提供商。

We deployed this nationally in 2023 and subsequently we've added a number of other stores and retailers and payment service providers.

太棒了。

Excellent.

现在请你指出我哪里理解有误。

And now you tell me where I'm getting this wrong.

据我回忆，最初你需要一个单独的应用程序来解码，就是那种每个商户会展示的条形码，你需要用另一个应用扫描它，然后读取并生成发票，接着你的——没错。

As I recall, it was like initially you needed a separate app that would, like, decode their, like, their you know, that merchant of each location would put out, a barcode, and you needed a separate app to scan it, and then that would kind of read it and get an invoice, And then then your Yep.

闪电钱包能够完成支付。

Lightning Wallet would be able to pay it.

而如今，你们实际构建的是像闪电钱包这样的产品，比如Blink等部分闪电钱包，它们可以直接原生读取。

Whereas nowadays, what you've actually built is, like, the Lightning Wallet or some of the Lightning Wallets like Blink and others, they can just, like, natively read it.

是这样吗？

Is that what's going on?

对。

Yeah.

我认为最初存在很多混淆。

So I think, there was a lot of confusion initially.

现在仍然有很多混淆。

There's still a lot of confusion.

我觉得人们忘记了比特币领域仍在进行大量开发，特别是在用户界面和可用性方面。

I think people forget that it's still kind of like there's a lot of, development happening in Bitcoin and specifically when it comes to user interfaces and usability.

有些钱包做对了，有些则还在挣扎。

Some some wallets get it right and some still struggle a bit.

所以非洲的情况是，不像肯尼亚等拥有M-Pesa的非洲国家，或是有UPI和PIX的印度、巴西那样存在统一的QR码标准。

So the the the situations on Africa was that unlike other African countries like Kenya that have been Pesa or you know India, Brazil that have the UPI or PIX where there's kind of like a common QR standard right.

南非没有这个。

South Africa did not have this.

所以我们当时有多个移动支付服务提供商，每家都有自己的QR码标准。

So what we had was like a number of mobile payments service providers that each had their own QR standard.

好的，本质上我们大致是这样的情况。

Right, so essentially we've got kind of like this.

假设南非有10家不同的二维码服务商，但基本上没有一家会显示闪电网络代码。

Let's say 10 different QR code providers in South Africa and none of them are going to display a lightning code basically.

因此我们必须想办法弥合这些支付服务商显示的专有二维码与闪电网络及闪电钱包之间的鸿沟。

So we had to figure out how we're going to bridge this gap between the proprietary QR codes that's being displayed by these payment service providers and then you know the lightning network and lightning wallets.

我们做的第一件事是开发了一个参考应用程序，叫做Money Badger应用。

So the first thing that we did is we implemented what we call like our reference application, which is the Money Badger application.

它的功能就是扫描这些专有二维码，并将其转换为闪电网络发票。

All it does is it scans one of these proprietary QR codes and it essentially translates it into a Lightning invoice.

好了，现在我们有了闪电发票，你就可以进行支付了。

Right, so now we've got the lightning invoice, you can pay it.

如果你是南非人，勉强能用这个方法——只要你不介意安装专门的SA闪电支付应用来扫描二维码。

And it kind of works if you're a South African, you don't don't mind installing sort of the SA lightning payments app to scan QR codes.

但这显然不够理想。

But obviously that's not ideal.

显然大家都希望所有功能集成在一个应用里，实现无缝交互。

Obviously you want everything to be one single app and one single smooth interaction.

于是我们与Bitcoin Blink钱包团队Blink进行了交流，他们提出了个非常有趣的想法。

So then we had a conversation with the guys from Blink, from the Bitcoin Blink wallet, and they had a very interesting idea.

他们说：如果我们设计一个特殊的闪电地址会怎样？

They said, what if we crafted a special lightning address?

这个地址采用闪电URL协议，我们设计了一个特殊闪电地址——把完整的二维码数据作为地址的用户名部分。

So it's using lightning URL protocol and we craft a special lightning address where the, let's call it the user part or the user ID part of the address is the actual full QR code data.

所以它可以是专有的二维码数据，但那是用户ID部分。

So it can be proprietary QR code data, but that's the user ID part.

然后很明显，服务器部分或主机部分将是Money Badger域名。

And then obviously the server part or the host part would be the Money Badger domain.

接下来唯一要做的就是将二维码的图案与Money Badger匹配。

And then all that's left to do is to match the pattern of the QR code to money badger.

对，所以如果你看到一个二维码，上面写着'pick and pay'之类的字样，那么闪电钱包就知道这是一个Money Badger闪电地址。

Right, so if you see a QR code and it says pick and pay somewhere in the QR code, then the Lightning Wallet knows that it's a Money Badger Lightning address.

然后这实际上非常、非常、非常简单。

And then it's actually very, very, very simple.

所以现在我们有了这种方法，让任何闪电钱包都能实现专有二维码，无需第三方API集成。

So now we have this means for any Lightning Wallet to implement proprietary QR codes with no third party API implementation.

因此不会有来自特定国家或特定提供商的代码充斥闪电钱包的代码库。

So there's no code from a specific country or specific provider that is filling up the code base of the Lightning Wallet.

这意味着任何开源闪电钱包都能非常简单地通过模式匹配，为我们正在支持的这些南非线上线下商家添加支持。

So that means any open source Lightning Wallet can very easily, by a simple pattern match, they can add support for all of these South African merchants and retailers that we're adding support to, both online and physical.

不知道这样说是否清楚。

I don't know if that makes sense.

请再给我解释一遍。

Just walk me through that again.

我...我刚刚没完全跟上你说的内容。

I I didn't quite follow everything there.

所以你的意思是说，就像...举个例子，Blink已经把它内置到他们自己的二维码扫描器里，让它会寻找某种特定的，比如说...

So as you're saying, they're like, what you what's basically, like, as an example, Blink have built it into their own QR scanner that it, like, is looking for a certain, you know, let's say, n

支付。

Pay.

Pick n And

Pick n And

那么一旦它看到Pick n Pay，就知道要联系Bunny Badger，然后从你那边获取实际发票，还是Money Badger？

then once it sees Pick n Pay, then it knows to call to Bunny Badger somehow and then get the actual invoice from you at from your side or Money Badger?

背景里发生的就是这个吗？

Is that what's happening in the background there?

所以如果你有Link或其他类似钱包，它们都有这个概念——一个类似地址。

So if you if you have link and many other liking wallets have this you've got the the notion of a liking address.

我想Blink可能会称之为支付码。

I think in the blink that may call it a pay code.

这些本质上就像是特殊的Money Badger支付码或Money Badger类似地址，就像电子邮件地址一样，对吧？

And so these these are essentially like special money badger pay codes or money badger liking addresses, like an email address, right?

对。

Yeah.

当你扫描这些代码中的一个，比如Pick n Pay的二维码，并把它当作Money Badger的电子邮件地址支付码使用时，一切就能通过闪电协议无缝运作，你会收到闪电发票并完成支付。

And when you scan one of these codes, like a Pick n Pay QR code, and you use it in this way as a money badger email address pay code, then everything just works seamlessly via the Lightning protocol and you get your Lightning invoice and you can pay it.

明白了。

Gotcha.

那它怎么知道具体是哪张发票，而不是随便一张Pick n Pay的？

And then how does it know which specific invoice as opposed to just pick and pay?

它怎么知道那张具体买牛奶的发票，比如3美元或其他金额？

How does it know that specific invoice for milk, for whatever, $3 or whatever it is?

嗯，这非常有趣，因为二维码的种类繁多。

Well, gets very interesting because there's a large number of QR code types.

所以你会得到一个动态二维码，它与特定交易相关联，并会提供购物篮信息。

So you get the dynamic QR code that's linked to a specific transaction and it will give you the basket, essentially the basket information.

然后还有静态二维码。

Then there are static QR codes.

比如你去餐厅时，有时他们只有静态二维码，你需要手动输入金额并发送给商家。

So if you're going to, I don't know, like a restaurant, sometimes they only have a static QR code and you have to enter the amount which you then send to the merchant.

有时你还可以添加小费。

Sometimes you can add a tip.

有时还能添加备注等等。

Sometimes you can add a note, etc.

因此二维码领域仍存在许多需要解决的独特问题。

So there's still this whole sort of world of idiosyncrasies around QR codes that we need to solve.

但以Pick n Pay为例，他们使用的是动态二维码。

But ultimately with Pick n Pay for example, that's a dynamic code.

你扫描的是当前交易对应的特定二维码。

You scan the specific code for that transaction that you're busy with at that point in time.

这意味着你会收到该笔交易的闪电网络发票。

So that means that you get the lightning invoice for that specific transaction.

明白了。

Gotcha.

好的。

Okay.

是的。

Yeah.

真有趣。

Fascinating.

那么请详细说说这段经历。

And so so talk us through that journey.

所以你最初是在Pick n Pay工作。

So you started with Pick n Pay.

南非有多少家Pick n Pay门店？

How many Pick n Pay's are there in South Africa?

我猜应该有很多家，对吧？

I presume like there's a lot of them, right?

您是指Pick n Pay自有门店数量，还是包括其竞争对手在内的所有类似商店？

So we've got a number of retail you mean Pick n Pay stores themselves or like competitors of Pick n Pay Pick n Pay shops?

对。

Yeah.

我指的是他们自己的门店。

I meant the stores themselves.

没错。

Yeah.

就是Pick n Pay自家的门店。

Pick n Pay themselves.

好的，明白了。

There's okay.

我是说，这有点难以比较。

So I mean, it's kind of hard to to compare.

南非的人口大约在5000万到6000万之间。

So South Africa's population of about 50 to 60,000,000 people.

我们有七个省份。

We've got seven provinces.

所以在南非几乎每个城镇都有一家Pick n Pay超市。

And so there's a pick and pay in almost every town in South Africa.

我上次看到的数据是大约有1600家Pick n Pay门店。

The last count I saw it was about 1,600 outlets Pick n Pay.

遍布各地

Across And the

这是你们合作的第一个商户吗？

that was your first merchant that you had done this with?

他们是试验阶段还是试点项目？

They were the trial or the pilot?

然后你们就从那里开始扩展了？

And then you've expanded it out from there?

是的。

Yeah.

我想从中得到的教训是，过去使用区块链进行零售支付体验很糟糕。

I guess the the the the learning from that was that, whereas in the past, the the the like, using a blockchain for retail payments, it sucked.

而这次用闪电网络进行零售支付真的很酷。

And this time around, Lightning for retail payments was really cool.

比如说，它的效果真的非常非常好。

Like, it works really, really well.

事实上，人们总说触碰支付已经很快了，但实际上闪电网络交易还要快上几秒钟。

In fact, people always say, well, tap to pay is so fast, but actually Lightning transactions are even faster by a couple of seconds.

所以没错，它确实有效。

So yes, it worked.

效果如此之好，以至于我们已在全国所有Pick n Pay门店部署使用。

It worked so well that we deployed to all pick and pays nationwide.

太棒了。

Fantastic.

另一个有趣的地方在于，收银员——就是给你扫码结账的人——完全不需要了解或关心比特币。

And so the other interesting part here is that the, let's say the checkout chick or the, you know, the person right there, like ringing you up the bill and so on, they don't have to know or care about Bitcoin at all.

对吧？

Right?

我认为这可能是另一个亮点，因为过去人们得知道怎么打开比特币钱包、正确输入金额之类的，这些都会增加额外操作步骤，而现在整个流程变得顺畅多了。

I think that's probably another interesting point because in years gone by, people had to kind of know how to pull out the Bitcoin wallet and kind of code it the right way or ring up the exact amount, and it's just it it kinda adds all this extra friction, whereas now it's done in a way that's a lot more smooth.

确实如此。

Exactly.

没错。

Yes.

国内已经有二维码支付的概念，每个收银员都明白这点，所以他们可以选择二维码结账方式。

So there's already this notion of QR payments in the country and every single person sitting by little understands that So they have the option to select QR code checkout.

还有很多非比特币、非加密货币的钱包也使用这个支付通道。

There's a lot of other non Bitcoin and non crypto wallets that also use this rail.

所以还有很多其他二维码支付选项。

So there's a lot of other QR options.

但从根本上说，这意味着我们完全不需要额外培训员工。

But fundamentally, this meant was that we had no in no case do we need additional staff training.

这非常重要，因为涉及到数千条收银通道。

That's a huge thing, because there's like thousands of lanes.

我的意思是，有1600家门店，每家店可能有10条收银通道。

I mean, there's 1,600 stores, but each store might have 10 lanes.

所以总数是数万条通道，对吧？

So that's tens of thousands of lanes, right?

因此要让大量员工掌握这种非常小众的支付方式，确实是个不小的挑战。

And so to train a lot of staff on a very niche payment option, that would be quite a big ask.

但最终结果是，你现在可以走进全国任何一家Pick n Pay超市的任意收银台，说我要用二维码支付——无论是用实现了模式识别功能的闪电钱包，还是用Money Badger应用扫码，然后你可以选择任意其他闪电钱包用比特币完成支付。

But at the end of the day, you can now walk up to any tool in any Pick n Pay in the country and say, I'm paying with the QR code, scan either with a Lightning Wallet that's just really implemented the sort of pattern matching or with the Money Badger app, and then you can pick, any of the other Lightning Wallets and then pay with Bitcoin.

太棒了。

Fantastic.

那么在这种情况下，商家收到的就是法币。

And so then in this case, that merchant is just receiving fiat on their side.

对吧？

Right?

他们完全不用操心，系统会自动转换成法币。

Like they don't have to think about it, they just get that auto converted to fiat.

是的。

Yeah.

过去与我们合作的大多数商家都明确表示，他们只想要一个精确的随机金额，并希望我们能某种程度上优于卡费率。

So in the past, definitely most merchants that we engage with said, you know, we just want the exact random amount and we want you to sort of beat card rates.

我们不喜欢支付卡费率，那太贵了。

We don't like paying card rates, it's very expensive.

你们能提供比卡费率更优惠的条件吗？

Can you beat card rates?

可以。

Yes.

你们能否提供一个精确的整数金额？因为我们看到比特币价格总是上下波动。

Can you give us an exact round amount because we see the price of Bitcoin going up and down all the time?

是的，我们可以提供精确的整数金额。

Yes, we can give you the exact round amount.

现在我们开始看到越来越多的商家询问关于分账结算的事宜。

Now what we're starting to see is more and more merchants asking us about sort of split settlement.

他们问，能否选择只接收部分款项，是的。

So they're saying, you know, what's the option of receiving portion of it, yes.

所以这是一种谨慎的乐观态度。

So there's this sort of cautious optimism.

但我们确实有一个像披萨店这样的商户。

But we do have one merchant that's like a pizza.

我认为他们是国内历史最悠久的披萨外卖品牌之一。

They're I think one of the oldest pizza delivery brands in the country.

他们叫巴特勒披萨。

They're called Butler's Pizza.

他们从一开始就接受比特币结算。

And they have been taking Bitcoin settlements since the start.

所以我们直接把款项结算到他们的比特币钱包。

So we just settled them straight to like their Bitcoin wallet.

不过确实，我认为这是一种正在变化的趋势。

But yeah, it's it's I think it's something that's changing.

目前大多数商家仍接受法币，但我们也在简化流程，让他们能轻松选择接受比特币。

For now most merchants are taking fiat but we're also making it very easy for them to accept Bitcoin should they choose so.

太棒了。

Fantastic.

我觉得这真的很酷，稍后我们会讨论这方面的批评意见。

And I mean, that's really cool because in I think we'll get to kind of the criticisms part of this later.

在讨论那个之前，我想先谈谈另一个话题，就是纯粹的数字规模。

Guess one other thing I wanted to touch on before we get to that is, just the sheer numbers.

当你仔细想想，这确实相当惊人。

Like, that's kind of incredible when you really think about it.

70万个地点，这个数字简直不可思议，意味着你能在这么多地方进行支付。

Like, 700,000 locations is just an incredible, like, number of, locations that you could go and pay.

我的意思是，长期以来人们都在查看btcmap.org的数据。

I mean, for so long let's say people look at btcmap.org.

你明白吗？

You know?

很长时间里，你在那里看到的数字都会非常小。

For so long, it it would have been a very low number that you would see.

你放眼整个国家，感觉就像在四处扫描，试图找到一个能用比特币支付的地方。

You look in the whole country, and it would be like, you're scanning around to try and find somewhere that you can even pay with Bitcoin.

而现在对南非来说，简直就像彻底爆发了一样。

And now it's just like, for South Africa, it must be just, like, totally blowing it out.

就像你能给我们讲解一下吗？我理解的是，我刚才快速浏览了你们的网站。

Like so can you talk us through as I understand, I was having a quick look on your website.

我想是通过Zappa，然后通过Scantopay，你们得到了，嗯哼。

I think it's through Zappa and then through Scantopay, you got, like Mhmm.

你们基本上从中获取了大量这些数据。

You you basically got a lot of these numbers up from that.

你愿意给我们讲讲这段历程吗？

Do you wanna just talk us through this journey there?

是的。

Yeah.

当然。

Sure.

所以我觉得是这样的。

So I think look.

当你使用BTC地图寻找这些地点时，仍然需要一点用户教育。

When you when you go on BTC map and you, look for these locations, there's still that little bit of education that's needed.

所以对于哪个钱包支持哪种代码，还是存在一些不确定性。

So there's still kind of like a bit of uncertainty about which wallet supports which code.

显然，你安装了Money Badger应用后，所有钱包和代码都得到支持。

So obviously, you install the Money Badger application, all wallets are supported and all codes are supported.

这是最简单的方法。

That's the very easiest way to do it.

但我理解人们只想用自己的钱包，像Blink这样的应用在南非已经非常流行。

But I understand that people just want to use their own wallet and something like Blink has become very popular in South Africa.

我们就以Blink为例来说明。

So let's just use Blink as an example.

当我们新增一个PSP或移动QR码提供商时，只需向钱包提供这些需要匹配的新模式列表即可。

So when we add a new PSP or a new mobile QR provider, all that we need to do is we need to essentially give the wallet a list of these new patterns that they need to match.

显然，我们在这方面做了大量基础工作。

So for us, we did a lot of heavy lifting, obviously.

我们整合了移动QR支付提供商Zapper，以及另一个服务Scan2Pay。

We integrated with Zapper, which is a mobile QR payment provider, and then Scan2Pay, which is another one.

顺便说一句，它们的覆盖范围非常广。

And they've got massive reach, by the way.

它们接入南非大多数大型品牌，包括加油站、众多杂货零售商，还有线上平台。

They're across most of the large brands in South Africa, that means filling stations, a lot of other grocery retailers, but also online.

它们覆盖了大量线上购物场景。

There's a lot of online shopping that they cover.

这使得支持我们支付系统的商铺和地点数量突然激增。

So suddenly that ballooned the number of shops and locations where you can spend via our system.

现在只需要有人在所有代码库上提交代码变更或合并请求，添加这些新模式即可。

And now it's simply a matter of somebody needing to make a code change or like a pull request or a merge request on all these code bases and adding these new patterns.

然后系统就能自动运行了。

And then it just magically works.

但这需要一些时间。

But it takes some time.

没错，如果你去VTC地图上查看，通常点击某个地点后，会有提示告诉你需要使用哪个应用来扫码支付。

So yes, if you go and look on VTC Map, I think there's usually some if you click on like a location, there'll be some indication of what is the application that you'll need to scan a pay.

希望在不久的将来，你直接使用Blink就能搞定。

And then hopefully, you know, in the near future, you can just use blink.

我认为目前Blink已经支持所有功能了。

I think at the moment blink supports everything.

对，基本上就是这个策略。

Yeah, that's pretty much the strategy.

我们讨论过，可以逐个对接商户——那会耗费大量时间，但我们更想直接瞄准最高目标，一次性接入所有商户。

So what we said is that we can either onboard individual merchants, and that's gonna take a lot of time, but what we wanna do is like, just know, aim for the moon and add all merchants in one go essentially.

关键在于与拥有现成分销渠道的PSP合作，将我们作为其网络中的另一个支付提供商，这样我们就能立即触达海量商户。

So the point is working with the PSP that's got existing distribution and adding us just as another provider on their network gives us immediate reach to, like, vast numbers of locations.

确实。

Yeah.

仔细想想，这确实令人难以置信。

That's I mean, that's incredible when you think about it.

70万家商户，规模太惊人了。

700,000, it's just massive.

当然，最近还有个重磅消息——我猜你肯定关注到了美国那边的情况——嗯

And, obviously, the other big news that's just come out recently, which I'm sure you're following in The US, is Mhmm.

Dorsey和Square团队已经为多达400万家商户开通了服务，这个规模细想之下简直不可思议。

Dorsey and the guys at Square have turned on for up to 4,000,000 merchants, which is incredible when you really think about the scale of that.

首先明确一点，我认为这些商家需要主动选择启用比特币支付功能，所以目前正在围绕这一点开展一些推广活动。

Now to be clear, I think those merchants have to opt in to turn on Bitcoin payments, So there's a bit of a campaign going around that.

不过我很好奇，你们那边有什么反应吗？比如南非市场对比特币支付的态度，还有美国市场的情况。

But, I'm curious, just any reactions on your side, like, the South African market and Bitcoin, you know, payments and, let's say, The US market.

嗯。

Mhmm.

你看，我觉得最棒的是他们本质上就像一家支付服务提供商（PSP），现在直接原生支持了比特币闪电网络支付。

Look, think it's fantastic that essentially like a PSP, they're essentially a payment provider, added native support to Bitcoin Lightning payments.

更令人惊讶的是，他们似乎在宣称这是零手续费的。

And amazingly, it looks to me like they're saying that there's a zero fee.

是这样吗？

Is that right?

我认为是的。

I believe so.

对。

Yeah.

我记得是到2027年之前都免手续费。

I think it's zero fees until 2027.

这可能是个吸引用户的推广活动，毕竟你知道，通常信用卡手续费要3%左右，免手续费确实很有吸引力。

So I think it's maybe an intro offer to get more people in, but, hey, it's you know, because I think part of the attraction there is normally they're paying whatever like 3% for credit cards.

如果他们现在支付零手续费，这确实是个不错的激励措施。

So if they're paying zero, that's kind of a good incentive there.

是啊。

Yeah.

我是说，我不认为那仅仅是个好激励。

Mean, I don't that that's not only a good incentive.

我觉得这有点像是个成败攸关的事情。

Think that's sort of like a a make or break kind of thing.

就像，这才是关键所在。

Like, that's the deal maker.

我认为最终我们需要采取的角度是：看，这些信用卡公司收费高得离谱，而比特币技术能让整个系统在定价上高效得多。

And that's I think the angle that we need to take ultimately is to say well look, these card companies are charging you an arm and a leg and if you consider Bitcoin, the technology allows the system to be much more efficient in terms of pricing.

所以你能以更便宜的价格获得它。

So you can get it much cheaper.

这就是大概的交易，对吧？

And so that's kind of the deal, right?

嘿，我们会给你一个比信用卡便宜得多的选择。

Hey, we're going to give you an option that's much cheaper than card.

但你也需要帮我们推广，可能需要你主动加入，但这根本不用考虑，因为对你没有风险，没有退单风险——虽然我不清楚他们的条款，不能代表他们发言。

But then you also need to help us to promote it and maybe you need to opt in but it's a no brainer because there's no risk to you there's no chargeback risk I think like I don't know what their terms and conditions are can't speak for them.

但那种机制不存在。

But that mechanism doesn't exist.

欺诈模式看起来非常不同。

The fraud profile looks very different.

不像你能随便偷别人的实体卡，对吧？

It's not like you can just steal somebody's plastic card, right?

所以我认为，对商家来说，这种超低费率的价值主张会变得如此强大，最终他们会明白过来，选择加入并启用它。

And so I think like the value proposition for the merchant with this idea of a very low fee, it becomes so strong that eventually they'll catch on and they'll opt in and switch it on.

然后他们会开始寻找客户，那些想消费的比特币持有者，他们会找到这些人并投放广告，从而触达新受众。

And then they'll start looking for the customers, the bitcoiners that want to spend, they'll start finding them and advertising to them and reaches new audience.

所以我觉得这真的太棒了。

So I think that's really fantastic.

我希望我们——南非也有类似的终端供应商，我们已经开始和他们洽谈，尝试做概念验证。

And I hope that we, so we also have sort of similar terminal providers in SA that we're already talking to already kind of trying to do proof of concept to it.

我们希望Block和Square的这次声明能帮助我们在南非也推动这些事情落地。

We're hoping that this announcement from Block and Square allows us to sort of get these things over the line in SA as well.

太棒了。

Excellent.

那么作为比特币倡导者、比特币极端主义者——随便你怎么称呼我们，来聊聊这意味着什么。

And so let's talk a little bit about what this means, let's say, as Bitcoin advocates, Bitcoin Maxis, whatever you wanna call us.

长期以来，社区里一直存在着某种持续的争论。

Now for a long time in the community, there have been kind of these ongoing, let's say, debates.

有些人会说这根本不算争论。

Now some people would say it's not really a debate.

也许只是些争执之类的。

Maybe it's just kind of arguments, whatever.

但有些人会这样描述：哦不——

But some people who kind of frame it in terms of, oh, no.

主要是价值存储派和更倾向于交易媒介派的对立。

It's mainly in a store of value and others who are kind of more in the MOE side of that.

嗯。

Mhmm.

我的观点更倾向于认为，HODL（长期持有）这一方面在经济上可能是最重要的，但我觉得在交易媒介这部分可能还存在一个有趣的社会因素。

And, I mean, my perspective is more like, I think the HODLing aspect is probably the most kind of economically important, but I think maybe there's a social factor that is kind of interesting around the medium of exchange part.

我相信你已经看到了一些背景

I'm sure you've seen some of the back

而且

and

来回讨论，比如说像Dan Held这样的人，我跟他有过多次辩论，他的观点基本上是认为这其实并不那么重要。

forth, there around, let's say, someone like a Dan Held who I was kind of going back and forth with where he was sort of arguing, well, that's not really that important.

想想过去这些年里商家们做过类似的事，但并没有产生多大影响。

Think about all these other years in the past that merchants have done this, and it didn't really make a big difference.

真正重要的更像是NGU（数字上升）因素、HODL（长期持有），以及可能像是借贷、抵押这类因素。

Really, what matters is more, like, the NGU factor, the HODLing, and maybe, like, the lending and borrowing and collateral and some of those factors.

我很好奇你对此的立场。

I'm curious your position on this.

显然，我肯定你会有不同意见。

Obviously, I'm sure you have some kind of disagreement.

你如何看待这个问题，关于推动商家接受比特币支付？

How would you see this question, around trying to get merchant adoption for Bitcoin payments?

嗯。

Mhmm.

是的。

Yes.

我是说，关于这个问题的讨论众说纷纭，观点各异。

I mean, that doll discussion is, like, there's so many voices and there's so many different perspectives.

因此我认为，要真正提供有价值的意见，我们必须非常明确我们试图实现的目标。

So I think that to really give a good input, we need to be very clear about the goal that we're trying to achieve.

对吧？

Right?

这是否仅仅意味着大规模采用比特币，并让比特币也作为一种货币被广泛接受？

Is it simply sort of mass bitcoin adoption and mass adoption of bitcoin as money as well?

还是我们试图为特定人群解决问题——也许我们只是想为那些已经以比特币为标准生活的人解决难题，他们只是需要更多能使用比特币支持日常需求的场所。

Or are we trying to solve a problem for a specific group of people maybe just we're trying to solve the problem for bitcoiners that are already living their lives on a bitcoin standard and they just need more places where they can spend it to support their daily needs.

但我觉得世界上其他地区可能没有考虑到的一点——这对南非尤为重要——是我们需要一种不受法币相同限制的货币形式，这是美国无法理解的。

But I think something that is maybe not considered in the rest of the world and that weighs very heavily in South Africa specifically is the the need for us to have access to a form of money that doesn't have the same restrictions as our fiat currency have and that's something that The US won't understand.

或许可以举个具体例子来说明。

So maybe maybe to to give a concrete example.

在南非，如果你身处南非，你在向国外汇款时会受到金额或次数的限制。

So in South Africa, if you're in South Africa, you are limited in the number or the amount of money that you're allowed to send abroad out of the country.

而这个限额至少十四年都未根据通胀进行调整，对吧？

And that number has not been adjusted for inflation in at least fourteen years, right?

通胀长期侵蚀着这个限额标准，且没有任何迹象表明这些标准会被调整。

That's a very long time for inflation to erode a threshold And there's no indication that that these thresholds will be adjusted.

为了让您对这个限额有概念——当它最初...

So to give you some idea of this threshold when it was first.

现行限额标准是在2011年实施的。

The current threshold was was implemented was in 2011.

当时这笔钱可能够买一栋房子。

And at the time you could probably purchase a house.

就这个金额，对吧？

For that amount, right?

如今用同样的钱，你大概能买辆豪车了。

Today you could probably purchase a luxury car for that same amount.

所以问题在于，十年后会是什么样子？

And so the question is what does it look like in ten years time?

这个门槛会更新吗？还是会像紧身衣一样越勒越紧，直到你动弹不得？

Will that threshold be updated or is it going to be like a straightjacket that just keeps pulling you tighter and tighter until you can't move?

我们就像越来越深陷于这个经济黑洞中。

And we're kind of like more and more stuck in this economic black hole.

如果你是个惊慌失措的初创者正在寻找投资人，我们很难吸引到资金。

It's difficult for us to attract financing if you're like a bright startled founder and you're looking for investors.

他们会说，我们不会投资这家非洲公司，因为你基本上就像掉进了这个黑洞。

They'll say, well, we're not gonna invest in this African company because you're like in this black hole essentially.

对，就像那个词怎么说来着，蟑螂旅馆效应。

Right, because like a, what's the word, the roach motel aspect.