53：顺势疗法与传统医学

《奇异罕见独特》播客第二季。这是一个深入了解顺势疗法的平台，拓展你在健康与福祉领域的可能性宇宙。Homeio什么？Homeio什么？

Season two of the Strange Rare and Peculiar podcast. A place to learn more about homeopathy, deepening your knowledge, expanding your universe of possibility in the world of health and well-being through homeopathy. Homeio what? Homeio what?

早上好，下午好，无论你在哪里，也许晚上好。

Good morning, good afternoon, and wherever you are, perhaps good evening.

我们已经开始了。

We're on already.

欢迎到来。是时候倒茶了。

And welcome. It's time to pour the tea.

我们来了。

Here we are.

这告诉你现在是

And that tells you that it's

你是指那个大茶壶。这可是认真的。

You mean the big pot. It is serious.

情况很严重。今早真是状况百出。从多个角度来看，我们在厨房里发现了一场灾难。

It is serious. It's been a serious morning. From a bunch of perspectives, we have discovered a catastrophe in the kitchen.

那不算灾难。

It was not a catastrophe.

好吧，至少持续了三十秒的灾难。

Well, it was for about thirty seconds.

当时我们以为弗兰克辣酱用完了。

There we thought that we had run out of Frank's hot sauce.

什么样的店会把弗兰克辣酱用完啊？

What sort of an establishment runs out of Frank's hot sauce?

不过请注意，我们其实并没有用完。

Notice we did not, however.

是啊，干得漂亮。

Yeah. Good on you.

有个大问题。我很想知道是否还有其他人生活中离不开辣酱。如果有，你们有偏爱的品牌吗？因为我觉得Frank's很特别，我喜欢它带醋香的特点。

There was a jumbo. I'd I'd love to know just if there are any other folks who sort of have a hot sauce requirement in their life. And if so, do you have a brand of choice? Because I think Frank's is a particular thing. It's what I like about it is that it's vinegary.

它不会太辣。哦，有人在搅拌茶沙拉。总之，你心里有个话题...哦，别发出那种声音...你心里有个话题是吧？是的，我有个话题，但我完全没做准备。

It's not too too hot. Oh, there's the stirring tea salad. Anyway, you have a you have a topic in oh, don't make that sound when you you have a topic in mind Yeah. I do. That I I I couldn't prep for.

这是少数几个我没带着贴满便利贴的文件夹、或是捧着本宁豪森冷门著作就来录制的播客之一。

This is one of the few podcasts where I haven't arrived with an organ on full of sticky notes or sporting Benninghausen's lesser writings or something.

听起来对你来说有点压力啊。

That sounds somewhat stressful for you.

并没有，

It's not,

其实。我挺好的，但原本可能会很糟糕，灾难性的那种。

actually. I'm go fine, but it could be, know, catastrophic and disastrous.

你是在暗示我没笔记就不会说话吗？

Are you insinuating that I can't speak without notes?

不，我的意思是我也没准备好。

No. What I'm insinuating is that I'm also unprepared.

我知道。

I know.

不，其实我没准备是因为我想告诉你，我昨晚听了一个半小时的播客。

No. I'm actually not prepared because I wanna tell you that I, last night, listened to an hour and a half long podcast

什么？

What?

对，是凯尔西兄弟的。

Yeah, of the Kelsey boys.

哦，对，对。其实我不介意听听他们的节目。

Oh. Right. Right. I actually would wouldn't mind listening to them.

他们自己播广告。

They do their own ads.

他们是这样吗？

Do they?

而且他们用滑稽的声音来做这些，比如，你知道的，就像'运动营养品'那样。对。如果他们是在宣传运动营养品，就会说'这是通往美好未来的门户'。你知道，就是这种特别奇怪的方式

And they do them in funny voices like, you know, so athletic greens. Yeah. You know, if they're doing the the athletic greens. It is your doorway to an amazing future. You know, sort of like this really weird

我...我喜欢这样。

I I like it.

广告那一套。

Advertisement stuff.

我们应该试试。

We should do that.

我不这么认为。不行。因为我们有凯莉在...那倒是真的。凯莉的声音很棒，她配音很出色。

I don't think so. No. Because we've got Kaylee with a That's true. Kaylee's got great voice She's got a great voice work.

这茶真的很好喝。谢谢。嗯哼。

And this is really good tea. Thank you. Mhmm.

想要更多就趁早行动，否则只会徒增苦涩。

If you want more, get it sooner than later because that's gonna go bitter.

好吧。苦涩。

Okay. Bitter.

苦涩。

Bitter.

我们在讨论什么？

What are we talking about?

其实我想和大家聊的是——应听众要求，我们播客的听众们经常问到一个我偶尔会提到的话题。这次对话将围绕传统与科学证据展开。科学？不，当然如果你想讨论科学也可以，主要是它与顺势疗法的关系。

So what I wanted to talk to you about actually, by popular demand, our audience out there in podcast land asked about something which I I drop every now and again. And so the conversation is around traditional and scientific evidence. Science. No. Well, I mean, we can talk about science if you wanna, of course, relationship to homeopathy.

但有个很好的切入点，我想先铺垫一下背景，因为这很重要。至少我认为很重要。你看，当我们思考顺势疗法中的资源时，可以将其分为一手资料和二手资料。

But there's good, I wanna contextualize it, because it's important. Well, I think it's important. So, see, when you think about the resources that we have in a homeopathy, the way that you think about them would be a division between primary and secondary sources.

哦，我是说，这个...

Oh, I mean, that's

但是，你知道的，你会

But, you know, you would

设想存在那种二元性

conceive There is of that binary.

是啊，确实存在对吧？嗯。所以让我们详细说说我

Yeah. There is, isn't there? Yeah. And so But let's elaborate on I

认为这其中存在细微差别

think there's nuance.

确实如此。但根据定义，原始资料应该是未经加工的研究成果。对我们来说就是验证过程

Well, there sure is. But a primary source by definition would be the raw research. So for us, provings.

没错

Yep.

然后还有二手资料，也就是观点类内容。要知道，这些观点可能非常精彩——可能是托金的观点、罗杰·莫里森的观点，或是法鲁克·马斯特的观点

And then there is the the secondary sources, which is opinion, and that is, you know, it can be amazing opinion. It could be the Thorking opinion or Roger Morrison opinion or Farooq Master opinion.

临床证据在哪里体现？哦，你是要说到这个吗？

Where does clinical evidence come in? Oh, are you getting to that?

这正是我要说的方向。

That's where I'm heading.

哦抱歉，我不是故意要说'好吧'的。

Oh, sorry, I don't mean to Alright.

各位想想看，当你们学习顺势疗法时，作为顺势疗法师，你们在执业过程中做出临床决策时，实际上是在参考各种资源。

So what we've got, when you think about it, folks, okay, you're going about your business, if you're learning homeopathy, you are a homeopath, you go about your business, you make your clinical decisions, but you're referring to resources.

而且

And

这些资源分为原始资源和次级资源。原始资源往往受到某些人的重视，确实具有一些优势。比如它直接记录验证者的原话，未经加工，某种程度上避免了文化或性别因素的干扰，保持了客观性。

those resources are either primary or the secondary. Now primary resources are often valued by some folks, and there's some real advantages to primary resources. Some of the advantages are that it's the words of the mouth of the prover, out of the mouth of the prover. It's unfiltered. It's unbiased in a way because usually there's no cultural or gender filters that get in the way.

嗯

Mhmm.

但同样也存在弊端，我们都知道药物验证的缺点。对吧？想想看，数百万的文字、成千上万条信息，多到记不住。而且常常就像消防水带喷涌而来的一团混乱信息，对吧？

But there's also disadvantages as well, and we all know the disadvantages of the provings. Right? You know, millions of words, thousands of pieces of information, too much to remember Right. And often just like a a garbled jumble of information coming at you like a fire hose. Right?

我是说，对于那些可能没读过验证报告的人来说，一个执行良好的药物验证应该会有多名验证者参与。

I mean, for people who perhaps have not read approving, the so the way that approving works well, a a well done proving will have multiple provers

做得很好。

Well done.

那你认为药物验证的理想人数是多少？

And should what what do you think of as optimal number for approving?

嗯，如今26是个神奇的数字。是的，但大多数都达不到。

Well, these days, 26 is the magic 26. Yeah. But most don't.

没错。但26人时，验证应该是三盲的。也就是说，验证者和监督者直到最后才知晓测试物质，验证者之间应尽量减少接触，更不应讨论症状。监督者需事先了解验证者的健康基线，所有验证者需同时或大致同时服用药物，并在验证初期保持高频沟通，双方都要记录以便比对。

Yeah. But 26. I mean then what happens is, it it should be triple blind. In other words, the provers and the supervisors don't know what the substance is until There it's revealed at the is minimal, if any, contact between the provers, and certainly should not be any about symptoms. The supervisor should take the case of the prover to understand their baseline of health beforehand, and then the prover, all the provers should take the remedy at or about the same time, and there should be frequent, very frequent communication between the prover and the supervisor in the early hours and days of the proving, and notes should be taken by both for comparison.

最后阶段会进行所谓的'验证提取'，所有人分享经历。当你发现多人出现相同症状、梦境或相似体验时，会感到难以置信。这些数据最终被整理成庞大文档，可能按验证者分类，但通常会二次整理为按主题或器官系统分类。总之就是个数据汇总。

And then at the end, at whatever point, there's something that's usually referred to as a proving extraction, and then everybody tells their story of what happened, and it's unbelievable when you realize, you know, all the people that have experienced the same symptom or had the same dreams or had, you know, similar experiences. Anyway, what happens is all of that data just gets put into a really big document that's organized. There are different iterations of the organization. It could just be the list of all the symptoms organized by prover, but most of the time it goes through secondary iteration where it's done by theme, or by organ system, and so forth. Either way, it's just a data dump.

信息量如此庞大，因此，我们通常喜欢验证过程中的总结环节，当有人消化了这些信息，经过深思熟虑并吸收后，能以易于理解的形式反馈给我们。

And there's so much information, and so, know, what we tend to like about provings are the summaries, and when someone who has chewed through the information, and really thought about it and assimilated it, can give it back to us in a form that makes sense.

你刚才描述的——除了一点例外——正是ECH、LIGA和HPUS的其他统一验证指南。

So what you've just described, with one exception, is the other harmonised proving guidelines from the ECH and LIGA and the HPUS.

什么例外？

What's the exception?

例外在于研究的揭盲过程从不以小组形式进行，且总在特定时间点完成。这正是杰里米·舒尔的验证方法有时虽非争议性，但存在不同观点的部分。

The exception is that the blinding, the unblinding of the study is never done with with in a group context. And it's always done at a very specific point. And that that's where Jeremy Shure's proving is sometimes not they're not controversial, but it's just, you know, there's different opinion about

关于信息提取阶段。

About the extraction.

对，关于信息提取和揭盲环节。

Yeah. About the extraction and unblinding.

明白了。我之前完全不知道这点——那恰恰是我最钟爱的部分。

Okay. I had no idea about that. That's my favorite part.

是的。不过从某种程度上来说，其实不是这样的。我们聊聊这个吧。这是研究的一部分，对吧？这部分仍有可能包含背景白噪音。

Yeah. It's also but in terms well, it's not no. Let's talk about it. It's the part of the study Right. Where there's still the potential for the inclusion of background white noise.

我明白了。

I see.

而且据我这些年的理解，那些持更右翼立场的研究人员认为，这个提取过程应该完全由专家单独完成。

And it's and as I understood as I've understood it over the years, the folks at the more right wing end of doing proving Yeah. Are of the opinion that that extraction process should be done completely separately by an expert. And

但能包括所有人吗，还是不行？应该是

But can everyone be included, or no? It should be

嗯，不是看，不是观看。我认为这是把它变成一种...一种节日

Well, not watch no. Not watching. I think it's turning it into a into a festival that is

我得说，对我来说，那个节日就是对苦难的回报。

I have to say, like, to me, that festival is the reward for the suffering.

是啊。没错。

Yeah. Yeah.

没错。你懂我的意思吧？

Exactly. You know what I mean?

是的。

Yeah.

我是说，否则我也不会参与氡气验证。虽然我是监督员，但每次参与审批时，都有可能造成困扰。但我会有FOMO（错失恐惧症），而我想参与的是提取环节。

I that's I mean, I would not otherwise have participated in the radon proving. I mean, albeit I was a supervisor, but you still every time you engage in approving, there's there's potential for suffering to be done. But I would have had foam FOMO, and it was the extraction that I wanted to be there for.

嗯。总之，我觉得这不是什么大事。肯定不是今天的主题。

Yep. Anyway, I I don't think it's a big deal. Certainly not the topic of the day.

不。不。不。

No. No. No.

但提取环节确实是关键部分。重点是，你刚才很好地描述了一种现代验证方法的合理流程。它们有优点也有缺点，你也提到了这点。还有二手数据、二手来源，我抬头看到架子上那本红皮书，就是莫里森的桌面参考书，

But the the extraction is the is that part. Anyway, the point is, because you just gave a beautiful description of a good, you know, a sound method of a modern proving. So there are advantages, but then there's disadvantages to them, and you mentioned that. And then there's secondary data, the secondary sources, and those secondary sources, I'm looking up at the shelf and I see the the red book, you know, that's Morrison's Morrison's desktop,

桌面参考书，对。

desktop, yeah.

你知道，还有Vermeulen那本古老的绿色协调手册。

You know, and then there's Vermeulen's old green concordant.

协调手册。每个人都应该有一本协调手册。

The concordant. Everyone should have a concordant.

没错。而且我们大部分文献，当你查看图书馆书架时，都是二手资料。这正是Lippie、Herring、Kent等人参考或从中筛选信息的地方，他们从原始资料中摘取内容，编写他们的药物学书籍或治疗学书籍。Richard Pitt的观点就是这样。是的。

Exactly. And over and the bulk of our literature, when you look on the library bookshelf, is secondary sources. And that's where Lippie and Herring and Kent and whoever else look at or take information from and cherry pick information from the primary sources and write up their materia medica books or their therapeutics books. Richard Pitt's opinion is this. Yep.

这就是过滤器的所在，有利也有弊。因为

And that's where the filters, there's advantages and disadvantages. Because

对。

Right.

好处是你能够获得Farooq四年经验的精华。

The advantages are you get the benefit of four years of of Farooq's experience.

是啊。

Yeah.

而且，你知道，拉詹这么说，其他人那么说。缺点在于这些都是经过过滤的观点。是的，对吧？而这是我的看法。

And, you know, Rajan says this and and whoever says that. The disadvantage is that it comes through filters. Yeah. Right? And it is my opinion that.

从我的实践经验看，每句话都应该以'根据我的临床经验'、'在我的实践中'、'在我的地理区域'开头。这是我的观点。

From my practice see, every sentence should start with from my clinical experience in my practice, from my in my geographical This is my opinion.

但我认为这甚至更像是... 还涉及到其他因素，比如想想法塔克这样的人，对吧？我是说，我在思考他的身份背景，你知道，印度医生。是的。他活跃在七十年代左右？

But it's even I think it's even somewhat it's that and it's something else, because you think about somebody like Fatak, for example, right? I mean, it's well, I'm thinking about just who he is, the context, you know, Indian medical doctor. Yeah. Well, he was around what in the seventies?

哦，那本书是七十年代出版的。所以，你知道的。

Oh, the book was published in the seventies. So, you know.

就像你刚才说的，存在文化影响以及他是医生这些因素。但前几天我在看理查德·皮特的书做鉴别诊断。那本书叫什么来着？像是《新旧药物比较材料》之类的。嗯。

So you you have as you were saying, there's sort of the cultural influence and the fact that he's a medical doctor and all that. But then I was looking at Richard Pitt's book the other day doing a differential. And that's the what's that book called? It's like comparative materia medica of old and new remedies, something like that. Mhmm.

而且他是

And it's He's

顺便说一句，他马上要出新书了。

got a new one coming, by the way.

哦，是吗？

Oh, does he?

他刚给我写了信

He just wrote to me

关于这事。哦，你在开玩笑吧。唉。

about it. Oh, you're kidding. Aw.

他在西班牙。大声喊出来

He's in Spain. Shout out

给我。停下动作。他是个好人，真的。总之他那本书，我喜欢的是——比如前几天在诊所给学生讲鉴别诊断时，我整理笔记时就想起来曾参考过这本书查漏补缺。对吧？

to me. Stops moving. He's he's a good egg, that one. Anyway, so his that book, I love the fact that if you're thinking so for example, was doing a differential with the students in clinic the other day, and I thought when I was putting together my notes, that was one of the places that I went to to see if I missed anything. Yeah?

因为他做的是对比研究。我们当时在比较...（具体疗法不便说，涉及客户隐私）。后来我读了他从没细看的前言部分——平时我都直接跳过筛选环节直奔主题。结果发现有个观点我绝不会用在临床上，就是那些关于'原始状态'、'失败状态'、'某种状态'之类的理论，虽然对他肯定意义重大。

Because he's doing comparative stuff. So we were looking at a comparison between well, don't wanna say what the remedies were because client information. Anyway, but then I was reading in his introduction, which I had never done, because I just bypass sort of the inputs of the filter, because I know what I'm looking for. And then I thought, oh, he says something that I actually would never really incorporate in my practice. It's like the primary state, the failed state, the something state, the this, the that, whatever, which is I'm sure, super meaningful to him.

可能他当老师时也把这些灌输给学生，成为他们接收信息的过滤器。而我不太理解这个语境，就直接跳过去看药典了。但转念一想：天啊，我们的学生读到这些会缺乏上下文。所以二手资料在顺势疗法里不仅包含临床经验——就像你说的——还掺杂着个人对哲学的理解。

And and probably when he was a teacher, it's probably something that he conveyed to his students, which would be a filter through which they would receive this information. Whereas for me, I don't quite understand the the context of it, so I just skip it and go to the materia medica. But then I was thinking, Oh, wow, our students would read that and it would be out of context. So secondary source material also, especially when it comes to homeopathy, it doesn't just include, like you were saying, the part about, well, has been my clinical experience, but it's also my interpretation of philosophy.

总的来说，是的。我们现在正逐渐接近今天的主题，虽然还没完全到位。理论上讲，在科学的漩涡中，原始数据是客观的——嗯哼——而次级数据则是主观的。

Generally. Yeah. And we're now we're now heading towards the topic of the day because we're not quite there yet. And that is that theoretically, in the swirl of science, the primary data is objective Mhmm. And the secondary data is subjective.

主观的。对。

Subjective. Right.

没错。所以次级数据的主观性很重要。现在，让我们进入一个平行宇宙。

Yeah. And so the subjectivity of that secondary sources is important. Now, let's just go into a parallel universe.

就像我们常做的那样。就像

As we often do. As

我们做的那样。

we do.

在我们的播客里。

In our podcast.

让我们聊聊循证医学的兴起。其实我很久以前深入研究过这个，循证医学实际上源自一位名叫萨克特的人。如果我没记错的话，他当时在加拿大一个叫汉密尔顿的地方工作？不知为何，我隐约记得是汉密尔顿或汉密尔顿大学之类的。总之

And let's talk about the advent of evidence based medicine. And I actually did a bit of a dive into this a long time ago, but evidence based medicine actually comes out of the brain of this guy called Sackett. And I think I'm not wrong that he was working at is there a place in Canada called Hamilton? I just, for some reason, remember Hamilton or University of Hamilton or something like that. Anyway

完成了。

Done it.

他正在思考医学领域的问题。在他看来，当时医学的问题在于专家意见。医学的问题，或者说历史上医学的诸多问题之一，就是专家意见。当然，专家意见可以包含许多不同的含义。如果你有一位从业四十年、看着你家几代人长大的优秀家庭医生，那简直太完美了。

He is thinking about the problem with medicine. And the problem with medicine, in his mind at the time, was expert opinion. The problem with medicine, or one of the problems with medicine historically, has been expert opinion. Expert opinion, of course, can mean so many different things. If you've got a really lovely family physician that's been around for forty years and seen the generations of your kids grow up, that's perfect.

这是美好的专家意见。临床决策是基于我四十年的经验做出的。但专家与意见之间存在很大差异。随着医学在30年代、40年代、50年代直至60年代逐渐成熟，到70年代时已非常明显，医学面临的挑战之一就是专家意见的差异性和不平等性。因此循证医学的起源就是：除了专家意见外，我们还要参考最佳证据来制定临床决策。

That's a beautiful expert opinion. And clinical decisions are made because of my my forty years of experience. But there's a lot of difference between experts and opinions. And one of the challenges for medicine, as it became more mature in, say, the '30s, '40s, '50s, into the '60s and definitely by the '70s, was the range of and the inequity of that expert opinion. And so the origins of evidence based medicine were, in addition to expert opinion, let's look around at the best possible evidence and then make our clinical decisions.

第三点，要基于客户的文化视角。

And then thirdly, based on the cultural perspectives of the client.

哦，有意思。

Oh, interesting.

这就是它的起源。在我看来，如果要制定一套完善的临床决策标准，我需要专家意见、可靠证据，还要结合客户的文化背景。但现在的循证医学显然不是这样了。它已经变成——我不知道该怎么形容——由律师和保险推销员制定的一系列流程协议。

That's how it started. And to my mind, if I think of a really good set of criteria for making nice clinical decisions, I want an expert, I want good evidence, and I want it to be pitched to the cultural perspectives of whoever the client is. But that's of course not what it is now. Evidence based medicine has just, I don't know, turned into a series of protocols determined by lawyers and insurance salesmen, you know?

嗯，这很有趣，虽然不知道是否跑题了——我在想，为什么这会在播客里成为话题？其实我正在为佛罗里达顺势疗法协会准备研讨会，阅读了大量关于自身免疫性疾病新兴趋势的文章。有意思的是每篇论文结论部分都写着：我们对此一无所知。

Well, it's interesting because and tell me if this is too tangential, but I'm just thinking about this as, right, but why would that ever be an issue on this podcast? No, but I'm working on seminar for the Florida Homeopathic Society and I've been going through tons and tons and tons of articles on emerging trends in autoimmunity. Right. Perfect. And Nice what's really interesting is looking at the the part of, you know, the conclusion in every article, which is basically, we have no idea what this is about.

你明白我的意思吗？就是，这里面有太多混杂因素了。我们只能锁定其中一小部分，但归根结底，这实在太复杂了，对吧？是的。所以关于这点，我一直在思考证据这个概念——当你在科学领域推进认知边界时会发生什么。

Do you know what I mean? It's it's sort of, there are so many confounding factors. We're able to nail down this one small piece of it, but at the end of the day, it's so complicated and complex, right? Yep. And so, one of the things about that I've actually been thinking about this idea of evidence is that, like what happens in science when you push the edge of what you actually can know.

换句话说，现在的情况是，当我作为一个顺势疗法医师观察自身免疫的新趋势时——说'自身免疫新趋势'甚至感觉有点奇怪，尤其我的演讲主要是在回归哈尼曼的原始理论。但本质上，现在正发生在足够大人群中的现象，已经催生了大量相关学术论文。是的。而我们正在推进的边界在于：还原论范式已经走得太远，必须回归整体观，因为自身免疫是个体整体性问题。

So in other words, right now, right? When I, as a homeopath, look at all of the emerging trends in autoimmunity, and it almost seems weird to say emerging trends in autoimmunity, especially since much of my talk is just tying it back to, you know, Hahnemann's original theories. But basically, what's happening now that's happening in a large enough swath of the population such that there are, you know, lots of academic articles, you know, written about it. Yep. And so we're the edge that I feel like we're pushing is that we've gone so far into the reductionist paradigm that it's got to come back to the whole, because autoimmunity is a whole person issue.

更关键的是，一旦确诊自身免疫疾病——我忘了具体百分比，大概是20%或更高——患者出现第二、第三种自身免疫诊断的概率会大幅增加。这本质上说明身体更多部分在崩溃，但根据哈尼曼的理论，这其实是同一种疾病。因此我们不仅在挑战认知边界，比如你读某些研究时会发现：基因研究仅止步于此，微生物组认知仅止步于此。

And just the idea that you have more Once you have an autoimmunity diagnosis, I forget the percentage, it's like twenty percent or more, greater likelihood of having a second and a third autoimmune diagnosis. Which is basically just saying that more of your stuff is breaking, but it's all the same disease, especially according to Hahnemann. So, in this way, not only are we stretching sort of the against the edges of what we know. So, example, you know, you'll read one of these studies and it'll say, we only know so much in the genetic research. We only know so much about the microbiome.

比如我读过一篇略微超出我理解能力的文章，有些研究者正试图计算人体内的细菌数量。嗯。这看起来是不可能完成的任务，而他们采用了各种...

Like, for example, I read this article that was it was slightly above my pay grade of full understanding, but there there are people who are trying to calculate the number of bacteria in the human body. Mhmm. And it seems impossible to do, And you they've got like all these

那会是个天文数字。

That'd be a big number.

确实很大，但他们的计算方式很像我在华氏度与摄氏度换算时的做法。天啊。就是那种特别复杂的公式？

It's well, it's a big number, but also the way that they calculate it is very similar to the way that I try to calculate Fahrenheit versus Celsius. Oh, dear. You know, a really complex equation?

都怪主观性。

Thanks to subjectivity.

没错。所以这很有趣，对吧？当你谈论循证医学时

Exactly. So it's interesting, right? So when you're talking about when you're talking about sort of evidence based medicine

是的。

Yeah.

混杂因素远远超出了我们对这些证据的理解范围。比如，我有一个客户正在接受相当密集的癌症治疗。看着她所接受的化疗方案选择标准，我就在想，她在配合治疗方面表现得非常出色，对吧？

The confounding factors are so far beyond how we can understand that evidence. So, if you have like a person who, like, I have a client that is undergoing some pretty intensive cancer treatment. And so, looking at the criteria that have gone into choosing the chemotherapeutic cocktail that she's getting, right? I thought to myself, and she's like amazing in terms of how she's able to sort of interface with what she's getting. Right?

总之，我在想，天哪，在药理学领域，他们怎么可能确切知道？当你同时接受两三种甚至四五种干预措施，再加上个体差异——当然顺势疗法会提到这点——怎么可能准确预测结果呢？

Anyway, but I was thinking, well, gosh, in that pharmacology world, how can they possibly know? If you're getting two, three, four, five, you know, interventions, and then you've got the individual susceptibility of the person. Of course, the homeopath would come up with that. How can you possibly predict Exactly. An

尤其是当你试图通过还原论的视角来看待一个复杂的整体性问题时，很快就会碰壁。这正好可以引出下一部分内容。我可以继续讲下一部分吗？

And especially because, looking at a complex problem, a complex holistic problem through the lens of reductionism, you're gonna meet your walls really quickly. And that is a nice segue to then getting to the next part. Can I get to the next part

我真的很想讨论

that I So want talk

我们先暂时把循证医学放一边？好的。接下来我要开始阴谋论了吗？

to you let's just put aside evidence based medicine for the minute? Yeah. Go then I get conspiratorial?

不。有一大群观众在喊，求求了，求求了。

No. There's a whole big swath of the audience going, please, please.

求求了，听我说。纵观整个人类历史，无论是六万年、四万年，或者——我也不知道——随你怎么认为，在整个人类历史中，所有的医疗和医学都是从尊重和操控生命力的角度出发的。

Please, please. Look. For the whole of human history, whether it's 60,000, forty thousand years, or I don't know, whatever your opinion is, for the whole of human history, all of health care and all of medicine has been delivered from the perspective of respecting and manipulating vital force.

对吧？不管它是否被称为生命力。

Correct? Whether it was called vital force or not.

在大多数文化中，它可能被称作别的名称。是的。除了过去八十年西方还原论医学主导的时期。

And in most cultures, it would have been called something else. Yeah. Except for the last eighty years with Western reductionistic medicine.

只有八十年？不止吧。你认为生物医学的'非革命'是什么时候开始的？

Only eighty years? No more. When would you say the biomedical not revolution?

好吧，公平地说，应该是一百五十年。

Well, fair enough, one hundred and fifty years.

是的，我也这么认为。

Yeah, I think so.

好的。但如果我们和我刚才所说的，无论你在地球上的哪个角落——南非、北美、西欧、东亚，甚至新西兰，都不重要，任何形式的医疗保健都应尊重能量的流动

Alright. But if we and I think what I just said, it doesn't matter where you are on the planet, you could be in Southern Africa, Northern America, Western Europe, Eastern Asia, doesn't matter, and New Zealand, that any form of health care respected the flow of energy

嗯。

Mhmm.

与平衡。是的。而且也不将神明固定于特定地域，这取决于你在人类历史中的所处阶段。

And balance. Yes. And and also not anchoring the gods, depending on where you were in the human history.

对，确实如此。那本来会

Right. Exactly. That would've

所以这就是其中的阴谋论部分——无论你是印度原住民、阿兹特克人、玛雅人、毛利人、澳大利亚原住民还是托雷斯海峡岛民，无论你身处世界何处，是喀拉哈里沙漠的布须曼人还是班图人，殖民主义都破坏了你们的医疗体系。它首先通过忽视，继而立法禁止来破坏这些医疗体系。

So that is and and then then the conspiratorial part of that is that, you know, whether you're an inward Indian or an Aztec or a Mayan or a or a Maori or a Aboriginal or Torres Strait Islander, where you are in the world, a bushman and a Kalahari or a or a Bantu, colonialism messed with your medical system. And it messed with that medical system firstly by ignoring it and then legislating against it.

是的。

Yes.

因此在世界各地的许多国家，随着时间进入17、18世纪，比如荷兰

And so in various countries around the world, as and now we're getting into the '17 and eighteen hundreds because with the way in which, say, Holland

嗯，对，荷属西印度群岛

Well, yeah, the Dutch West Indies

先是荷兰人，然后是英国人，再后来德国人在世界某些地区也有小范围影响。但非洲被瓜分的方式，亚洲的殖民影响，我称之为地图上的粉色区域。

The Dutch, then the Brits, and then, you know, Germany to a small extent in some parts of world. But the way that the Africa was carved up, Asian colonial influence, the what I call the pink parts of the map.

我就喜欢你这么称呼它。

I love when you call it that.

你知道，英国人压制加拿大印第安文化的方式，他们在议会立法反对新西兰的托洪加

You know, the the way the British suppressed the Canadian Indian culture, the way they legislated in parliament against the tohunga in New Zealand

没错。

Right.

《托洪加压制法案》或类似名称的法案，意味着传统医药转入地下。是啊，明白吗？当然，这是因为全世界所有传统都是口耳相传的。对。

The tohunga suppression act or whatever it was, what that meant was that traditional medicine went underground. Yeah. You know? And, of course, if it was because every tradition around the world is oral. Yeah.

因此，如果断代了，那麻烦就大了。是啊。因为假如发生流行病或战争，下一代萨满传承人缺席的话，对。那作为传统文化就陷入绝境了。这正是我想探讨的，因为在传统医药的艰难复兴过程中。对。

And therefore, if you miss a generation, you're in real trouble. Yeah. Because if there were, say, if there was an epidemic or warfare and the generation of the the next shamanic generation was not there Yeah. Then you're in desperate trouble as a traditional culture. And this is where I wanna take it because in the the the the clawing back of traditional medicine Yeah.

传统价值观涉及重新发现语言并与土地重新建立联系

And traditional values is involved with re finding language and reconnecting to the the land

嗯

Mhmm.

以及寻找部落主义、精神性，以及所有那些被压制的东西

And and finding tribalism and spirit and all of those things that that have been suppressed

嗯

Mhmm.

被那些殖民势力，还有还原论所压制

By, well, firstly, those those colonial powers, but also reductionism.

好的，这正是我想切入的地方。你刚才说的让我对这个话题有了初步了解，虽然这是我们的讨论方向，但我认为需要补充一点。要知道，顺势疗法本应成为新世界的新医学。

Well, and that's where I would like to come in, okay. When you said, you kind of gave me a window into the topic, expect this is where we're going, but I've got a piece that I think we have to add to it. Good. Which, know, homeopathy was meant to be the medicine, the new medicine for the new world. Yeah.

哈内曼生活的时代正是殖民医学开始兴起的时期，如果我没记错日期的话？没错，是的，差不多同一时期。顺便说一句，这曾是我研究医学史的重要部分。

Hahnemann lived during this time when the beginning of colonial medicine would have taken place, if I've got my dates right? Sure. Yeah, right, it's around the same time. And just as an aside, it was such a big part of my studies in the history of medicine. Right.

我是说，看到这对健康领域产生的巨大影响确实令人惊叹。但这并非唯一因素。哈内曼的独特之处在于，他生活在传统医学——我称之为希波克拉底医学——的转折点上，那时健康被定义为人体与元素的平衡。无论是前希波克拉底时期的'众神发怒'理论，还是后来单纯讲求元素平衡的理念，这些都构成了哈内曼的思想传承。

I mean, is really It's amazing to see how much that impacted what happened in health. But it wasn't the only thing. And Hahnemann, I think, is really uniquely positioned because he lived on the cusp of traditional medicine, what I would say Hippocratic medicine, where a person being in balance with the elements was the way that health was defined. Whether you go pre Hippocratic, the gods are angry, or whether you go, you know, further on into just the balance of the elements, that was still a part of Hanuman's lineage.

这部分确实存在显著差异。请稍等片刻——这就像是石器时代与青铜时代、铁器时代之间的区别。因为在那些我称之为萨满文化的全球各地文化中，并不存在人格化神灵的概念。

That part is the part that's somewhat different. Hold that thought just for a minute. Yeah. Because that's the difference between, if you like, stone age and bronze age, iron age and then bronze age Yeah. Development, because in those shamanic cultures, I'm gonna call them shamanic cultures around the world, that didn't have a concept of of a personalized god

没错。

Yeah.

这种观念是随着希腊文明出现的。这是西欧特有的概念。在世界其他地区，特别是在万物有灵论盛行的地方，人们认为岩石、树木、河流中都寄宿着灵性。

That comes with the Greeks. Yeah. So that's a Western European concept. In other parts of the world, it's and and especially where animism is predominant, that means that, you know, you're seeing spirit within the rock, within the tree, within the river.

确实如此。

No doubt.

这与希腊人的观念截然不同。

That's different from the Greeks.

是的。但哈内曼作为博学者，他的思想其实...

Yeah. But even still, because Hanuman was, you know, as a polymath

那么你认为顺势疗法属于那个传统吗？

So do you see homeopathy in that tradition?

我认为两者都有。好吧，两者都有。这就是我说的。哈努曼正好站在那个临界点上，他一只脚站在元素平衡、人与自然和谐的领域，对吧？

I see it in both. Okay. I see it in both. This is what I'm saying. Hanuman sits right on that cusp where he is, he's got one foot in balance of the elements, balance of the person in nature, right?

那就是体质，对吧？而他的另一只脚则踏在疾病领域。

That's the constitution, right? And he has the other foot in disease.

以及现代病理学对

And modern pathological understanding of

疾病的理解。完全正确。我是说，哈内曼对瘴气、对病原体的理解，他明白存在传染性，明白吗？你看他写的关于流行病的论文，那篇...我不确定我手头是否有《器官论》第一版里的副本，但可能在次要著作里能找到。哈内曼可是社交距离的倡导者。

disease. Absolutely. I mean, Hahnemann was, you know, his understanding of miasma, right, of a morphic agent, he understood that there were contagions, you know? Look, you read Hahnemann's essay on epidemics, that was I don't know if I have it in a copy of the first edition of The Organon, but it's probably in lesser writings, so somebody's looking for it. And Hahnemann was a proponent of social distancing.

他明白如果有一种传染病在传播，没错，要远离患病者，因为病毒会通过空气中的微粒传染给你。所以哈内曼不仅理解疾病的基础原理，甚至更深入。说这个几乎显得可笑，因为他所领悟的深度...等到研究慢性病时，你会发现甚至难以用语言描述，因为我们至今仍在努力真正解释清楚。但他就站在这个临界点上。这正是我认为顺势疗法如此完美的原因。

He understood that if there is a contagious disease going around, yeah, stay away from the person who's sick with it, because you will it will transmit to you through the little particles in the air. So Hanuman understood the basis of disease, and then some. I mean, it's almost ridiculous to say because of the profundity of what he actually grasps that I think, you know, by the time you get to chronic diseases, it's like hard to even find the words for it because we're still struggling, right, to really explain it. But he sits on this cusp. That's what I think makes homeopathy so perfect.

好吧，我同意你的观点，但中间有个部分我想讨论下。如果我们从我提出的循证医学观点出发，再结合我说的地理和历史对健康与疾病的理解...没错，世界各地各种不同的理解...对。

Well, I'm gonna agree with you, but there's a piece that I wanna talk about that's in the middle of that. Yeah. So if we go from the point that I made about evidence based medicine, and then the point that I made about, let's say, geographical and historical understanding of health and disease Yep. In in all sorts of various places around the world. Yep.

我们称之为传统医学。是的。对我来说，某种程度上，我并不是在讨论古秘鲁医学与新西兰毛利医学之间的差异，因为它们本质上相似之处多于不同。对吧？

Let's call that traditional medicine. Yep. So for me, there's in a way, I'm not talking about the differences between the medicine that was practiced in Peru in ancient times and Maori medicine in New Zealand, because they're basically, they're more similar than different. Yep. Right?

那么我想提到的是，传统医学正经历一场非凡的复兴与热潮。布鲁克林的死藤水现象，秘鲁的情况，或是你根本报不上毛利传统医学课程因为它们太抢手

So then the thing that I wanna mention is that there's an extraordinary revival and interest in traditional medicine. The ayahuasca phenomenon in Brooklyn, or in Peru, or the fact that you cannot get into a traditional Maori medicine course because they're so booked

没错。

Right.

当下，传统医学正获得公共卫生部门、世界卫生组织及所有权威机构的认可。因为现代医学存在危机，而且根本负担不起。认为西方医学经济实惠是种错觉。如果你想要性价比高的有效治疗，

At the moment, is also being recognized by public health and the World Health Organization, all of the authorities. Because there's a crisis with medicine, and of course, no one can afford it. It's a delusion that this is affordable, Western medicine is affordable. If you want effective medicine that's cost effective,

而且

and

效率、适用性与可及性，那么世界各国卫生部长们，无论来自何种政体、东方或西方，都需要关注所有补充医学或传统补充整合医学。现在使用的术语是TCIM。世界卫生组织中，I部分、T部分和C部分都正受到重视。想想马来西亚、古巴或巴西这些国家，大量人口急需医疗救助，而传统知识与治疗体系本就存在且随时可用。它们正获得尊重与认可。

efficiency and appropriateness and access, then those ministers of health around the world, in all sorts of governments, West or East, need to look at all of the complementaries, or all of the traditional complementary and integrative medicines. So the term now is being used as TCIM. And in the World Health Organization, the I, the the T part and the C part are are being attended to. And you think about those countries like Malaysia or Cuba or Brazil, where you've got massive populations that are requiring, urgent attention, and you've got traditional knowledge and traditional systems of healing that are just there, and they're ready to go. And there's a respectability and an acknowledgement of them.

当然现在的问题是，其逻辑（不，不是这个词）——但临床决策过程是传统的。它依赖口述与归纳法，顺势疗法也是如此。这正是让我着迷之处，因为自然疗法医师们可以说领先我们十到十五年。

Now, of course, the problem is that the logic or no, not the logic. That's not the word I meant. But the but the critic the clinical decision making process is traditional. It's oral, and it's inductive, and so is homeopathy. And this is the thing which I'm fascinated about, because the naturopaths are ten, I'd say ten or fifteen years ahead of us.

自然疗法虽然常与功能医学混淆，但它同时正将自己定位为满足传统医学的所有要求。

So naturopathy, while it's often confused with functional medicine, is at the same time positioning itself as meeting all of the requirements of a traditional medicine.

哦，太棒了，我非常喜欢这个观点。

Oh brilliant, oh I love it.

没错，传统医学的要求，不知道你是否了解，就是三代传承，仅此而已。

Right, now the requirements of a traditional medicine, don't know if you know it, it's three generations, that's it.

哦，真的吗？

Oh really?

是的。哇。需要三代不间断的传承，并且要有独特的理论、哲学体系等等。可能有人会质疑这点，但根据我的理解是这样的。所以顺势疗法完全符合这个标准。

Yeah. Wow. It's three generations of uninterrupted use, and with a distinct theory, philosophy, and all the rest of it. Someone might take me to task on that, but that's my understanding of the reading. So homeopathy easily fits into that criteria.

当然。

Sure.

明白吗？从哲学角度来看，我们是传统的，因为我们是归纳法的，意味着我们采用自下而上的方式。观察过程、决策过程都是归纳性的而非演绎性的——除了最近这些年。现在我们投入大量精力撰写科学论文，你我都很清楚这点，因为我们身处前沿。实际上我热爱这种工作，这正是你刚才说的精彩之处——我特别喜欢能设计一个简单的临床研究，比如针对矽肺病，然后提出问题：顺势疗法对矽肺病是否有效？设计出解答这个问题的方法，然后我们就去实践。

You know? And so from philosophical perspective, we are traditional, because because we're inductive, meaning that we are a bottom up Yeah. Observational process processes, our decision making processes are all inductive and not deductive, except for recent times. Now all of the energy that we put into writing scientific papers, I mean, you and I know it because we're at the forefront of it, and actually I love it, I love, and this is what was so cool about what you just said, because I love the fact that I can design a simple clinical study, let's say on silicosis, and then ask that question, is homeopathy gonna be effective in the condition of silicosis? Come up with a method of answering that question, and let's go and do it.

如果我们那样做并记录下来，那就是科学知识，对吧？但这不是我们在顺势疗法中所做的。我们在顺势疗法中，特别是使用硅作为干预手段时，采用的是归纳法。是的，这是传统知识。

And if we do that and write it up, that's scientific knowledge, right? But that's not what we do in homeopathy. What we do in homeopathy, especially to get to silica as an intervention, is inductive. Yep. That's traditional knowledge.

我是说，你所说的部分内容，其实正是我一直称之为‘桥梁’的东西，对吧？对的。我们现在处于一个必须直面问题、并需要保持适应性才能参与这场由科学主导的对话的时刻。对吧？我本想

I mean, think part of what you're saying, though, is just is about what I always call the bridge, right? Right. Which is we're sort of at a point in time where we have to meet the problem where it is, and we have to be adaptive in order to be able to engage in the conversation dominated by science. Right? I I wanted

现在有件重要的事要说，那就是如果你能听到马达声，说明猫咪刚刚加入了我们。

At this point, there's something important to say, and that is that if you can hear a motor running, we're just being joined by the cat.

希尔德加德·宾根，她总是会出现在精彩的播客中。

Hildegarde Bingen, she always turns up for for a good podcast.

好的。

Okay.

但你知道，这就是为什么有些人可能知道我们今年在美国顺势疗法联合会议上专门组织了一个研究专题。我和艾尔都会发言，还有索诺兰大学的贝琪·赖斯和加拿大自然疗法师基兰·库利。

But, you know, this is why when so some of the folks might know that we organized a part of the Joint American Homeopathy Conference this year to be a research track for the conference. And both Al and I are speaking, Betsy Rice from Sonoran University and Kieran Cooley. Cooley, who is a Canadian Canadian. Naturopath.

是的。加拿大自然疗法医学院。

Yeah. The Canadian College of Naturopathic Naturopathic Medicine.

是的。因此我们选择与两位自然疗法医师合作并邀请他们加入，正是基于Alistair提到的原因——自然疗法医师在某些方面确实走在我们前面，尤其是那些投身研究的。我特别推崇Elizabeth Rice和Karen Hooley的工作，她们真正推动了对话的进展。我们一直努力的方向就是与这场对话保持一致，以此认真对待我们的工作，并探索如何搭建这座桥梁。

Yeah. And so we chose to partner with and to bring in two naturopaths for the very reasons that Alistair's bringing up, which is there's a way in which the naturopaths are a bit ahead of us and that they are, especially those who are engaged in research. And I think I really look to both the work of Elizabeth Rice and Karen Hooley as being so just forward, pushing the conversation forward. And that's something that we've been really trying to do, is align ourselves with this conversation as a way to take seriously what we do, and to, you know, look into the ways in which we can, you know, build that bridge.

是啊。

Yeah.

但你知道吗，这还让我意外地联想到最近看的一集《北国风云》。Shelly起了皮疹。

But you know what else it made me think about, you know, surprisingly, is an episode of Northern Exposure, a recent episode that we watched. Shelly had a rash.

Shelly！Shelly！嘿，Shell。

Shelly! Shelly! Hey, Shell.

她手臂上布满皮疹，于是去找Fleishman医生。医生立刻用各种专业术语诊断她得了接触性皮炎，开了外用类固醇药膏让她带回家。第二天她复诊时情况更糟了，皮疹扩散得到处都是。与此同时，在前台工作的Marilyn在场，她邀请了表妹——或者说她表妹主动要求来的。

She had a rash all over her arms, and so she goes to Doctor. Fleishman, who immediately gives all kinds of big words and diagnoses her with contact dermatitis and gives her a topical steroid to take home. And she comes back the next and it's worse. It's all over, it's spread. Meantime, Marilyn Marilyn who works at the front desk Marilyn is there and she had invited her cousin, or her cousin had asked for an invitation.

她表妹

Her cousin

那位传统疗愈师。

The traditional healer.

他是一位传统治疗师，来自阿拉斯加的因纽特人，原本只是想观察弗莱什曼医生诊所的情况。结果有天乔尔刚好不在，那位萨满就在那里。雪莉进来后，他检查了她的手臂，和她聊了一会儿。后来他们是不是还一起散步了来着？

He's a traditional healer, Alaskan, Inuit healer, who wanted to just watch what was happening in Doctor. Fleishman's office. And so Joel happens to be out one day, and the shaman is there. Shelly comes in, he looks at her arms, and he talks to her for a while. And didn't they go did they go for a walk or something?

我现在记不清了。

I can't remember now.

不确定。

Not sure.

但他们深入讨论了现状，他告诉她：‘现在是春天，你正在蜕皮。’她回答‘哦，好吧’就离开了对吧？后来那天乔尔回来，发现萨满给了雪莉一堆他认为最荒谬的江湖骗术建议。

But they have a long talk about what is going on, and he told her, Well, it's spring. You're shedding your skin. And she said, Oh, okay. And she left, right? And then later that day, you know, Joel comes back, finds out that the shaman had given Shelley, you know, what he considered to be the most ridiculous, quackery information.

他气得火冒三丈。然后去砖房餐厅吃午饭时，发现雪莉完全康复了。他问‘这怎么可能？’总之...

He's all mad, he's all hot. And then he goes to the brick to get lunch, and there's Shelley, and she's completely better. And he says, How is this possible? Yeah. Anyway

我太喜欢这个故事了。

I love it.

简直完美。

It was so it was perfect.

实际上很完美，那段婚姻

It was perfect, actually. That marriage

霍林和雪莉的？

of Hauling and Shelley?

霍林。不，他们没结婚。

Hauling. No. They're not married.

哦对，他们没结婚。

Oh, right. They're not married.

我说的正是传统医学与科学医学的结合。

That marriage of traditional and scientific medicine is what I'm talking about.

哦，完全搞错了方向，对吧？

Oh, was going completely wrong. Right?

你看，这里的顺势疗法既不受科学指导，也不以科学为依据，对吧？

You see, here, homeopaths do not and are not informed by science. Right?

说什么？

Say what?

不，听好了。

No, listen up.

好的，我在听。

Okay, I'm listening.

听着，1991年詹妮弗·雅各布斯进行了史上最出色、令人难以置信的关于顺势疗法的儿童临床试验。但有人像她那样使用顺势疗法吗？没有。哇。这根本没能影响任何人的临床处方——让我说完。

Look, Jennifer Jacobs in 1991 did the world's best, unbelievable clinical trial into Yes. Children's And does anyone use homeopathy the way she did in that study? No. Wow. It's not informed anyone's clinical prescribing Let me finish.

所以我们是个古怪的群体——既需要科学验证主张来保持体面，让FDA不找麻烦；另一方面又不愿改变我们那套归纳式的、传统的、甚至萨满式的相似疗法理论。你懂我意思吗？

So we are a funny old group of people, because we need science to validate our claims and to be seen as respectable, and the FDA will leave us alone, but on the other hand, we're not gonna change our inductive, traditional, in fact, shamanistic ways of similars. You know what I'm saying?

嗯，我不太确定...我得再想想。

Yeah, I'm not sure, I'm not Yeah, I'll have to think about that.

没错，因为你看——想象有项研究完全符合顺势疗法师对科研的所有要求，结果却说石松对下午四点出现的问题其实没那么有效。

Yeah, No, because, I tell you what, because, look, imagine if there was a piece of research that met all of the requirements that a homeopath would wanna hear in a piece of scientific research, and that research said, Lycopodium actually is not really that good for problems at 04:00 in the afternoon.

这真让我难以置信。

Which I cannot believe.

你认为会有任何顺势疗法师因为那项完美的科学研究而改变他们的行为吗？

Do you think any homeopath is gonna change their behaviors as a consequence of that perfect piece of science?

你得描述一下这个，因为这真的让我震惊。不，不，不，只是当时有个，是个谴责吗？不，有人仔细研究了

You need to describe this, because this really blew my mind. No, no, no, just that there was a, was it a reproving? No, somebody went through

片段。何塞·伊西亚加。

pieces. Jose Isiaga.

哦，没错。

Oh, that's right.

何塞·伊西亚加在阿根廷医院工作，做了一项非常棒的回顾性研究。

Jose Isiaga is working in the Argentinian hospital, did a very cool piece of retrospective research.

是啊。

Yeah.

这确实存在问题，但无论如何，它仍面临挑战。是的，存在局限性。但他所做的就是从档案柜中筛选出符合特定标准的石松病例。这些病例都已治愈，而石松是唯一发挥疗效的药物。

And there's problems with that, but nevertheless, anyway, there's challenges with it. Yeah. So limitations. But what he did is he grabbed out of the filing cabinet the Lycopodium cases, that were all met a certain criteria. They were cured, and Lycopodium had been the single remedy that did the business.

但其中没有一例出现过APM加重反应。

But none of them had afforded APM aggravation.

于是他逐一核查，寻找临床决策的依据：腹部不适、从右向左的疼痛、发黄症状等等。但所有这些病例中，没有一例在石松的关键症状上出现过下午4点加重的现象。石松的其他关键症状都得到了证实，唯独这条没有。你明白我的意思吗？

So he went through and he looked, okay, what led to the clinical decisions, and it was abdominal discomfort, right to left, yellowness, yeah. All the things, but not one of those cases had had a 4PM aggravation in one of the keynotes of Lycopodium. All of the other keynotes of Lycopodium were confirmed, but not that one. That do you see what I'm saying?

听到这个我不得不躺下把脚翘起来。

I had to lie down and put my feet up when I heard that.

你还解开了束身衣。哦天哪。哦。达西先生，我的衣襟松开了。就是这样。

You did and unbuttoned your corset. Oh oh my. Oh. Mister Darcy, I am unbuttoned. There you go.

所以我认为，我们作为一个广泛的群体，需要保持科学联系并

So look, I I I think that we, as a broad community, need to maintain our scientific links and

朝这个方向。嗯。

directions do. Mhmm.

我们应当明确地将自身与传统体系紧密相连，与传统马车、传统列车紧密挂钩。传统医学、补充医学和整合医学才是未来方向。

And we should link ourselves clearly, hitch ourselves clearly to the traditional wagon, the traditional train. Traditional, complementary, and integrative medicine is the way forward.

那我们能被'祖父条款'纳入哪个体系呢？

And then we can get grandfathered into the who?

哪个体系以及哪个和什么。嗯。你看，传统医学体系正在全球范围内重新获得法律保护，而且它们比顺势疗法更受重视。

The who and the and the who and the what. Mhmm. Well, it is that there is to have that you see, traditional medical systems are being protected legally around the world again See, but you not but and they're ahead of homeopathy.

但我认为顺势疗法被以不同的方式看待。我是说，我觉得这有点牵强。为什么？我在想些非常荒谬的事，因为我们没有传统服饰，也不属于某个部落，懂吗？

But I just think that it is seen in a in a different way, homeopathy. I just I mean, I think it's a stretch. Why? I was thinking something really ridiculous, because we don't have like traditional outfits. We're not a part of a tribe, you know?

你什么意思？仔细想想

What do you mean? If think about it

羊绒披肩和

Pashminas and

羊绒披肩还有拉杆箱。这就是我们的传统服饰。

Pashminas wheelie and wheelie bags. That's our traditional garment.

嗯，那是在个人电脑出现之前的事了。

Well, used to be before the personal computer.

对。不过等等，认真想想，可能我对这个定义理解有误——传统医学，或者说自然疗法确实颠覆了我的认知。当我想到世界卫生组织对传统医学的看法时，它更像你描述的部落医学。你知道的，这是属于某个地域和族群的医学，是对传统的致敬。

Right. But no, think about it seriously though, because I think that part of the maybe I've got this definition wrong, but traditional medicine, well, and actually I guess naturopathy blows that out of the water. But I think of what when I think of the way that the WHO might be considering the idea of traditional medicine, It's more tribal like you were describing. You know, it's medicine of a place and of a people. It's honoring a tradition.

不，但是...

No. But but it

不是这样吗？

Is that not it

其实不是。因为你想，澳大利亚的原住民和托雷斯海峡岛民实际上由数百个不同的民族组成

doesn't Well, no. Because if you think about it, the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islanders of Australia are literally hundreds of different nations

没错。

Right.

他们传统上是游牧民族。所以确实存在对地域的认同，但不一定是具体地点。比如某个部落用某种草药治病，邻近部落可能用同样的草药治疗不同的病症。这种差异性是被认可的。如今他们作为职业顺势疗法从业者正重新被纳入规范体系，而我们却未能如此。

That are nomadic Right. Traditionally. And so, no, there's an acknowledgment of there's an acknowledgment of place, but not necessarily of specific location. So there's also an acknowledgment that what one tribe in that place over there uses a herb for, the next tribe might use that herb differently. Again, there's an acknowledgement of that reality, and they are being regulated back into existence when we are, as professional homeopaths, not regulated back into existence.

我们处于灰色地带，那个模糊不清的领域

We have we're in the gray zone, the twilight zone

天啊。从

Gosh. From

监管的角度来看

a regulatory point of view.

潘多拉魔盒。但我想你让我想起了我在罗马尼亚锡比乌那次会议上的演讲，那是一个传统医学会议，重点讨论顺势疗法。

Pandora's box. But I think you made me think about when I spoke at that conference in Romania in when I was in Sibiu, and it was a conference, it was a traditional medicine conference with a focus on homeopathy.

叮，叮，叮，叮

Ding, ding, ding, ding.

是的，他们特别强调顺势疗法因为我要出席，他们还准备了哈努曼包，我收到了那些很酷的东西。总之有位女士做了个演讲，关于传统医学中因世代断层在植物草药采集方面造成的后果。

Yeah, they emphasized homeopathy because I was gonna be there and they made the Hanuman bags and I got all those cool things. Anyway, there was a woman who gave a talk about what has happened because of the generational skips in traditional medicine in the harvesting of plants and herbs and things.

毁灭性的

Devastating.

对吧？她举了两个非常相似但作用完全不同的植物例子。展示了图片，展示了生长方式，展示了采收方法，它们就紧挨着，简直让人惊呼。这种错误可能会造成毁灭性后果，所以需要大量清理工作。

Right? And she gave these examples of two really similar plants with a completely different action. Showed pictures, showed how they grow, showed how they're harvest and they're right next to each other, and it was like, Oh my gosh. That kind of a mistake could be really devastating. So there's a lot of cleanup to do.

传统医药部5号通道的草药需要清理。

Herb cleanup on Aisle 5 in the traditional medicine department.

我喜欢这个。

I like that.

是啊，是啊。我们有很多要考虑的。我对其中几点还不太确定，需要再琢磨琢磨。

Yeah. Yeah. We've got a lot to think about. I'm not convinced of a few things in this. I gotta work it through.

好吧，但这不代表我不认可。

Okay. Doesn't mean I'm not convinced.

事实上我很少轻易被说服。但这件事，我很确定。

Am I actually don't get convinced about much very often. Of this, I am sure.

是吗？那好，我们得继续讨论这个话题。

Are you? Okay, good. Then we'll have to continue the conversation about it.

是的，我还想提一下，关于传统医学的指导方针正在制定中，我称之为科学或学术指南。我曾略微参与过几项调查，我认为可以将其描述为科学指南，这些指南在传统医学的调查、研究和学术文献中是可以被接受的。

Yeah, I'd also just mention that the guidelines, there are developing, I'm gonna say scientific or academic guidelines, respecting traditional medicines that are being worked on. I was kind of very peripherally involved in a couple of surveys looking at the, I think I'm right in describing it, like guidelines, scientific guidelines, which would be acceptable in conventional scientific literature for doing surveys, studies and research I on traditional

像这样。

like this.

我也喜欢。

I like it as well.

看，我想，在我们即将结束时，我要说说我认为我的

See, I think, I guess, as we're wrapping up, I'm gonna say where I think my

谁要结束了？

Who are wrapping up?

我几分钟后有个门诊，我得准备一下。

I've got a cute clinic in a couple minutes, I've gotta get myself ready.

哦，是我。

Oh, me.

我头发上全是化妆品。就像这些。我在想

All the makeup on my hair. Like all of this. I was thinking

你在好奇我们为什么不搞

You're wondering why we don't do

视频播客。

Video podcasts.

视频播客。这是有原因的。

Video podcasts. There's a reason.

我不太清楚。其实就是摄像头放哪的问题。我们试过了，感觉有点

I don't know about that. It's really just where to put the camera. We tried it, and it was a little bit

是啊。我们得彻底改造这个空间，对吧？

Yeah. We'd have to totally reinvent our space, wouldn't we?

我们重新摆下家具吧。不过我想说的是，我觉得我卡住的地方在于——你对此说得太对了——这可能源于我的偏见，我称之为哈努曼做的事。他的发现和领悟。几乎可以说我认为他的行为是超越分类的。

Let's rearrange the furniture. Anyway, what I was gonna say though was, I think where I get where I'm I'm having trouble getting to the same place where you're so true about this is, it probably comes from this, I'm gonna call it my bias, which is what Hanuman did. What he discovered and what he figured out. It's almost like I think of what he did as being category less.

你之所以这样是因为你不相信他属于活力论传统，对吧？

This are you because you're not convinced he's in the vitalist tradition, aren't you?

不，我一点都不相信。

No. I am not convinced at all.

对。

Right.

是的，我不认为

Yeah. I do not believe that

我...我从未

I I never

与活力论有任何关联。但这并不意味着缺乏对生命力的理解。

has anything to do with vitalism. That doesn't mean that there's an absence of understanding of vitality.

对。

Right.

但传统意义上的活力论特指某种概念，对吧？而他将其与另一个理念联系起来——如何为逐渐丧失生命的有机体注入生机？这与万物皆有灵的活力论不同。就像上期播客我拿出器官模型讨论第269条格言时提到的，明白吗？

But the tradition of but vitalism means a particular thing? Right? And so he's attaching it to a different idea, which is how do we put life into an organism that's losing life? It's different than the vitalism, there's life in everything. I mean, one could argue, like on the last podcast when I brought out the organ on and talked about aphorism two sixty nine, Right?

当以特定方式制备时，我们能从万物中提取出具有生命力的部分。但这原理截然不同。所以...这个话题改日再聊吧。

That when prepared in a particular way, right, we can extract that which is viable from within everything. That's different, though. That's a different principle. So I yeah. That's a conversation for another day.

知道吗？我们可以谈谈马特·伍德的《魔法手杖》那本书——后来更名为《活力论》。

You know? We could talk about Matt Wood's book, The Magical Staff. Oh, which then was renamed to be called Vitalism.

你见过他本人，是不是？

You met him, didn't you?

嗯，不止是见过。我经常能...

Yeah. No. I not just met him. I would see him

在咖啡馆里？

In the cafe?

对，我住在明尼阿波利斯时经常在那家咖啡馆见到他。

In the cafe when I lived in Minneapolis. Yeah. I would see him on

这些东西。是的。

the stuff. Yeah.

是的，神奇的东西。总之，我想说的是，我认为哈努曼的成就独立存在——我们完全可以将你的观点纳入考量，因为这正是搭建桥梁理念的一部分，是我们所需的。但归根结底，哈努曼的发现与传统智慧毫无冲突。

Yeah. Magical stuff. Anyway, but what I was gonna say though is, I think Hanuman sits I'm totally fine with hitching our wagon to everything that you're talking about Because it's part of the bridge building idea, it's what we need. But I think, at the end of the day, what Hanuman did sits by itself. The discoveries that he made are they're not in opposition in any way to all of the traditional I

明白你的意思。不，我完全同意。这是个自成体系的系统，尽管被各类人群使用。是的。

see what you're saying. No. I completely agree with you. It's a it's a coherent though it's used by all sorts of other folks. Yeah.

它和整骨疗法一样，本身就是一套完整独立的医学体系。

It it is a complete and discreet system of medicine in the same way that osteopathy has its own complete

但不仅如此。他破解了密码，真的破解了密码。所以每当我想到这个，就像听到天使齐鸣，看到哈努曼周身散发光芒。真是令人惊叹。

But it's not just that. He cracked the code. He cracked the code. And that's why I think it's just this, you know, when I think about it, it's like, oh, you hear all the angels singing and you see the glow around Hanuman. I mean, it's Wow.

有点圣徒传记的味道。你说'hagiographic'还是'hagiographic'？

A little hagiographic. Do you say hagiographic or hagiographic?

我尽量避开那个词

I stay well away from that word

是吗？很明显的原因。对，我可以换着方式说，这样我有一半时间是对的。

Do you? Obvious reasons. Yeah. I could I say it I alternate how I say it, so that I'm right half the time.

对。

Right.

是啊。但可能很多人不知道这个词，所以我说清楚点。我觉得是软音g。我认为是

Yeah. But maybe enough people don't know the word that it that I'm clear. I think it's a soft g. Think it's

这让我想起，你知道的，我的朋友Dom。

a It reminds me, you know, Dom, my friend Dom.

嗯。

Yeah.

他有一次说，他是个爱读书的人，但他确实提到过，你还记得那些Halkian的日子吗？他说有一次，我记得当时想，天啊。这不是很有趣吗？不过，这完全无关紧要。

He said once, he's a vociferous reader, but he did come up with, don't you remember those Halkian days? He said once, I remember going, boy. Isn't that interesting? Anyway, it's totally irrelevant.

说到这个

On that note

好吧，我的好朋友们。显然，丹尼斯有比和我或你们聊天更重要的事要做，所以你们先走吧。

Alright, my good friends. Denise, obviously, has got things better to do than talk to me or you, so off you go.

或者也许是因为听众中有人生病了，正要拨打求助热线。没错。那样的话，他们会很高兴我正要去主管诊所。

Or maybe it's that somebody who's in this audience listening is sick and about to come to the helpline. Right. In which case they'll be really glad that I'm heading down to Supervisor Clinic.

HHN的广告，

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the Homeopathy Help Now.

如果你感觉不太舒服，

If you're not feeling great

homeopathyhelpnow.com。

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访问网站，填写表格，享受优质的医疗服务。

Hit the website, navigate to the form, excellent health care.

医生，你知道吗，这太不可思议了。我们坚持循证医学原则，严格遵循证据等级体系，GCIM等所有标准。但说真的，HHN，我们即将迎来四周年纪念日——2020年3月20日是正式启动日，至今已处理了五千个病例。

Doctor. You know, it's amazing. Just provide evidence based. We sit hard on the evidence hierarchy, GCIM, all the things. But seriously, HHN, we're about to hit our fourth birthday, 03/20/2020 was our official start And since then, five thousand cases.

哇。有人在听吗？如果需要帮助就来找我们，我们会伸出援手。

Wow. Are there folks? Come to if you need us. We'll help.

下周见。

See you next week.

大家保重。

Take care, everybody.

再见。

See you.