贡贝黑猩猩与伊丽莎白·朗斯多夫博士 | 第58集

你会好奇，当我看到这些G家族的成员时，我的问题是这样的。

And you wonder, like, my questions when I see the g's are, okay.

所以这些孩子，你知道的，Gremlin的孙辈们——现在数量已经非常庞大且经常聚在一起，他们的成长环境与社区里大多数孩子截然不同，因为他们拥有所有这些姐妹、兄弟和表亲，就像这个庞大的近亲群体，他们知道这些都是安全的社交伙伴。而相比之下，大多数新来的移民雌性生下孩子后，在新群体中没有任何这样的紧密关系。

So these kids, you know, the grandchildren of Gremlin, of which there are a ton now who are together a lot, they have a very different kind of growing up situation than most kids in the community because they have all these sisters and brothers and cousins like this massive group of close relatives who they know are safe social partners versus, you know, most an immigrant female comes in, has her baby in her new group, and doesn't have any of those close ties.

那么这如何影响这些黑猩猩的成长呢？

So how does that affect how these chimps grow up?

这些家伙是否会在余生中保持高度社交联系并拥有强大影响力？

Are are these guys gonna be really socially connected for the rest of their lives and very powerful?

那么你是否观察到这种代际间的权力传递？

And do you get that kind of then intergenerational transmission of power?

或者说，其中一些会暴怒，另一些则表现得一切如常？

Or, you know, will some of them just fury, some of them will just be kind of like it's all normal?

我们无从得知。

We don't know.

但这恰恰说明——关于黑猩猩，你怎么可能尚未了解全部？

But it it speaks to how can you not know everything about chimps yet?

嗯，它们总是做出让我们惊讶的事情。

Well, they keep doing stuff that surprises us.

是啊。

Yeah.

确实如此。

Exactly.

我们之前讨论过文化差异，以及黑猩猩在非洲各地并非同质化群体这一事实。

We talked about, previously was, cultural differences and the fact that chimps aren't this homogenous thing across Africa.

即便在同一地区，它们的变化也很大。

Even if regionally, they change a lot.

其他群体中是否有人观察到类似现象？比如基巴利或刚果其他地区、刚果共和国，或者西非等地？

Is anybody seeing this kind of thing in other groups, Kibali or other places in Congo or Republica Congo or, you know, West Africa?

是的。

Yeah.

它们...你是说有些雌性会蜇人。

They you're this thing meaning some of the females sting.

是的。

Yeah.

抱歉。

Sorry.

是的。

Yeah.

所以我们在基瓦利国家公园恩戈戈黑猩猩研究基地工作的同事们最近刚刚发表了他们的发现，证明那里也有相当比例的雌性黑猩猩选择留居。

So they our colleagues that work at Ngogo at the Ngogo Chimpanzee site in Kiwali National Park have recently recently published their evidence that they have a decent proportion of females that stay as well.

看来雌性黑猩猩并非必须进行扩散。

So it seems like female dispersal is not obligate, for chimpanzees.

现在有趣的问题正是你刚才提出的那个。

And now the interesting question is the one exactly you already asked.

为什么？

Why?

为什么要留下？

Why stay?

你什么时候会留下？

When do you stay?

你什么时候会离开？

When do you go?

它们对留下或离开了解多少？

What do they know about staying or going?

你知道的，我们其实并不清楚。

You know, we don't we don't really know.

我们稍事休息一下。

Let's take a quick break.

回来后，我想和伊丽莎白聊聊那些在贡贝以外进行的多年研究，它们揭示了黑猩猩的本质，或许更重要的是，它们不是什么。

And when we come back, I wanna chat with Elizabeth about the wealth of multiyear studies that are now going on outside Gombe and what that tells us chimps are and maybe more importantly, what they are not.

这些研究向我们展示的是，黑猩猩并非千篇一律。

And what that has shown us is that a chimp is not a chimp.

它不是一只普通的黑猩猩。

It's not a chimp.

那么这意味着什么？

So what does that mean?

坚持一下，我们会弄清楚‘不是黑猩猩’是什么意思。

Hang in there, and we'll find out what not a chimp means.

在此之前，先快速向助理制片人Demelza Bon问好。

Before we do, a quick hello to assistant producer Demelza Bon.

嗨，Demelza。

Hi, Demelza.

你好啊，Jeremy。

Hiya, Jeremy.

大家好呀。

Hiya, everyone.

我们上一期发布的节目是世界大猩猩日特辑，邀请了Gorilla Doctors的Kirsten Gelardi参与，有几位听众来信反馈，真的很暖心。

So the previous episode we released was a World Gorilla Day special featuring Kirsten Gelardi of the Gorilla Doctors, and a couple of you wrote in about it, which was really nice.

Maria说，大猩猩是如此美丽的生物。

Maria said, gorillas are such beautiful beasts.

我们人类会停止自己造成的破坏吗？

Will we humans ever stop the destruction we cause?

玛丽说：谢谢你们照顾这些珍贵的大猩猩，柯尔斯顿。

Mary said, thanks for taking care of these precious gorillas, Kirsten.

你可能没有得到足够的赞赏。

You probably don't get enough appreciation.

非常感谢你们的留言，玛丽和玛利亚。

Thank you so much for your comments, Mary and Maria.

如果其他人对播客有任何意见或问题，或者只是想向我们问好，可以通过电子邮件tap@globio.org联系我们，或者在社交媒体上搜索'talking apes podcast'或'apes like us'给我们留言。

If anyone else has got a comment or question about the podcast or you'd just like to say hello to us, you can write in via email at tap@globio.org, tap@globio.org, or you can message us on social media, search for talking apes podcast or apes like us.

如果你喜欢这个节目，请考虑捐款支持。

If you enjoy this show, please consider donating.

播客制作成本不菲，而且我们是非营利组织。

Podcasting isn't cheap, and we are a nonprofit organization.

帮助我们支付编辑软件、录音平台或发布平台的费用。

Help us cover the costs for our editing software, the recording platform that we use, or the publishing platform we use.

你们的任何帮助我们都将无比感激。

Anything you can do to help us, we'd really appreciate it.

请访问talkingapes.org并点击捐赠按钮。

Go to talkingapes.org and click that donate button.

另一种支持我们的方式是购买《会说话的猿》播客周边商品。

Another way to support us is by purchasing Talking Apes podcast merchandise.

我们有一系列卫衣和连帽衫，让你在秋天倍感温暖。

We've got a range of sweatshirts and hoodies so you can get all cozy for autumn.

如果你所在的地方不是秋天，那也很幸运，因为我们还有T恤和背心可供选择。

Or if it's not autumn where you live, well, you're in luck because we've also got t shirts and vests on there.

所有销售利润都将直接用于把这档播客做到最好。

All the profits from sales go straight back into making this podcast the best we can make it.

由于Globio团队即将外出，我们下期节目可能要等几周才会发布。

Now it might be a couple of weeks until our next pod release because the Globio team are off on the road.

我们将与合作伙伴NAAEE（一家大型环境教育非营利组织）共同开展另一个项目。

We're gonna be working with our partners, NAAEE, a huge environmental education nonprofit, on another project.

请关注我们的社交媒体和网站以获取更多相关信息。

So keep an eye out on our socials and website for more on that.

如果你对灵长类动物保护领域充满热情，请务必订阅我们的免费电子通讯。

Please, if you're excited about the world of primate conservation, do subscribe to our free email newsletter.

除了这个播客，我们还开展许多其他活动，秋季特刊即将发布。

We do lots of other things aside from this podcast, and the autumn edition is coming out soon.

请访问globio.org。

Go to globio.org.

那是我们的非营利组织glovio.org，点击订阅按钮即可。

That's our nonprofit, glovio.org, and click the subscribe button.

在结束前，我想请所有听众今天帮个忙。

Before I go, I want to ask all of our listeners a favor today.

请向一位朋友推荐这个播客。

Please recommend this podcast to one friend.

再次感谢大家的收听。

Thanks for listening to me once again.

现在把时间交还给可爱的伊丽莎白和杰瑞。

Now back to the lovely Elizabeth and Jerry.

谢谢，德梅尔扎。

Thanks, Demelza.

现在回到甘比，让我们看看哪些芯片不是。

And now back to Gambi, and let's find out what chips are not.

是的。

Yes.

你提出的关于黑猩猩行为差异的问题非常有趣，因为长期以来，世界对黑猩猩行为的认知主要来自珍妮在贡贝的研究成果——她的著作、论文以及她在《国家地理》上发表的文章。

So the the question you asked about variation in chimpanzee behavior is a really interesting one because we, for a long time, what the world knew about chimpanzee behavior came from studies at Gombe that that Jane was writing about and her books and National Geographic and the academic paper she was publishing.

当时的观点认为，这就是黑猩猩的行为方式。

And the idea was like, this is what chimpanzees do.

后来其他野外研究站也陆续建立起来，开始进行长期跟踪研究，持续记录个体黑猩猩的整个生命历程。

And then other long term field sites well, other field sites, I should say, straightened up and started that pillar and is, you know, following individuals over their lives for a long period.

现在我们有了多个长期研究黑猩猩的野外基地。

And now we have several long term field size of chimpanzees.

这些研究表明，绵羊并非黑猩猩。

And what that has shown us is that a sheep is not a chimp.

它不是黑猩猩。

It's not a chimp.

也不是以土丘为生的黑猩猩。

And it's not a mound based chimp.

不同地区的黑猩猩行为各异。

Chimpanzees in different areas do different stuff.

你提到了它们的文化行为。

You referenced their cultural behaviors.

比如西非有些黑猩猩会用锤子敲开坚果。

So some chimpanzees use hammers to crack the nuts out in West Africa.

而我们这里的黑猩猩从未被观察到这种行为，尽管石头和坚果资源丰富。

Like, these chimpanzees have never been seen to do that, even though we have plenty of stones and nuts.

我们有自己的黑猩猩群体。

We have our chimpanzees.

它们用长长的植物枝条钓白蚁吃。

They use long pieces of vegetation to fish for termites.

西部的确有白蚁，但它们不这么做。

Checks out West have termites, but they don't do that.

这类在觅食和其他行为上的文化差异始于20世纪90年代末，当时一位名叫安迪·怀廷的人将所有黑猩猩长期野外观察点的负责人召集起来，提议讨论观察到的行为差异并尝试量化这些现象。

So these kind of cultural differences in foraging and in other behavior started to be documented in the late 1990s when, a man named Andy Whiting got the heads of all the long term field sites together for chimps and said, let's talk about the behavioral differences we see and see if we can quantify that.

自1999年这项研究发表以来，我们就已经知道它们存在文化差异，包括特定的进食行为和问候方式。

So we've known about their cultural differences since that work was published in 1999 in terms of, what certain feeding behaviors that they have, certain greeting behaviors that they have.

但各种层面都存在差异。

But there's variation kind of across all different spectrum.

例如，我研究的东非贡贝黑猩猩，它们的社交活跃度因性别而异。

For example, the chimps, East African chimps, which are the Gomi chimps that I study, they tend to have, a very different kind of level of gregariousness depending on whether they're a male or a female.

雄性黑猩猩往往更加合群。

So males tend to be quite a bit more gregarious.

它们经常与其他黑猩猩在一起，而雌性则大多时间独自带着幼崽活动。

They're kind of often with other chimps, whereas females tend to just be spending a lot of time alone with their kids.

所以你经常只会看到一只雌猩猩和她的孩子们。

So you'll often just see a female and her kids.

在中非的猩猩群体中，那些生活在泰国和象牙海岸的猩猩，雄性和雌性之间的融合程度要高得多。

In Meso African chimps, the chimps that are sitting in Thai and the Ivory Coast, they are much more integrated in terms of males and females.

而且雌性并不比雄性更不稳定。

And and females are not less precarious than males.

她们和雄性一样不稳定。

They're equally as precarious as male.

所以像社会组织这样基本的东西似乎存在很大差异。

So something is kind of fundamental as social organization seems to highly vary.

而记录这些差异，我认为，过去十到十五年黑猩猩研究中最令人兴奋的是，它为文化差异提供了大量线索，让我们思考还有什么不同之处？

And and that documenting that variation has been, I think, what's been really exciting in the last ten or fifteen years of chimp research is just leads for any amount for the cultural differences to say, what else is different?

你知道吗？

You know?

安哥拉研究地的黑猩猩比贡贝的黑猩猩寿命长十五年。

The chimps at the Angola field site, they live fifteen years longer than Gombe chimps do.

它们寿命很长。

They live a long time.

我们不知道原因。

We don't know why.

我们有一些猜想，但不确定具体原因。

We have ideas about why, but we don't know why.

但除非你持续研究一个群体几十年，否则无法准确估算它们的年龄。

But until, again, you've been studying a community for decades, you can't get accurate estimates on how old they are.

只有经过数十年的知识积累，我们才能再次提出这些更宏观的比较性问题。

So it's not until we accumulate these knowledge over decades that we start to be able to ask again these bigger comparative questions.

为什么黑猩猩会以这种方式行为和生存？

Why does chimpseer behave and live in this manner?

而黑猩猩会以这种方式行为和生存？

And chimpseer behave and live in this manner?

所以我非常期待有朝一日能与西非的研究人员探讨黑猩猩的发育问题。

So I'm really interested, someday in talking with those folks out in West Africa about chimp development.

因为在贡贝，作为一只黑猩猩宝宝，你的生活非常凄凉，大部分时间只能和妈妈在一起。

Because as a chimp baby, your life is very dismal at Gombe when you're just with your mom most of the time.

而与更大的群体和雄性黑猩猩在一起可能会有些压力，相比之下，西非那些从小就在雄性身边长大的黑猩猩可能更适应。

And being with the larger group and with the males is probably a little bit stressful maybe versus a tight shin bow in West Africa who's grown up around males all the time.

这在我看来非常不同。

That seems very different to me.

那些雄性黑猩猩也会是的。

And those males would also be yeah.

而且那些雄性黑猩猩的互动方式也会不同，因为他们一直和小黑猩猩一起长大。

And those males are also gonna be interact differently because they are growing up with babies all the time.

所以，是的。

So it's Yeah.

我是说，这种动态是双向的。

Mean, the dynamics pulling both ways.

是的。

Yeah.

是啊。

Yeah.

没错。

Yeah.

对于在东非和西非长大的黑猩猩来说，它们的社交动态很可能大不相同。

The dynamics could could be could very well be very different for a chimp growing up in East Africa versus West Africa.

我们只是还不知道而已。

We just don't know yet.

我们是否知道贡贝群体与塞内加尔芬戈利群体之间存在根本性差异，比如食物供应量？因为你在谈论雨林与干燥廊道森林的区别。

Is there anything fundamentally different that we know between, like, say, a Gombe group and a Fengoli group in in Senegal or something where food amounts of food that's available or I mean, because you're talking rainforest versus sort of gallery dry gallery forests.

我是说，我们的群体规模——我知道在农戈戈那些地方有非常庞大的种群数量。

I mean, our our group sizes I know that's the stuff in, you know, in Nongongo and and there, there's huge, huge populations.

庞大的群体。

Huge groups.

是啊。

Yeah.

庞大的群体。

Huge groups.

是的。

Yeah.

部分原因与食物供应等因素有关。

Part of it has to do with just food availability and that kind of thing too.

但这是否与西部群体规模较小导致雄性更倾向于留守有关？我们对此有所了解吗？

But does that have anything to do with the the fact that males because these are tend to be smaller groups in the West that males stick, or do we know anything about that?

我们知道黑猩猩的行为很大程度上受觅食驱动。

I mean, we know that lots of, we know that chimp behavior is very driven by finding food.

它们醒着的大部分时间都在四处移动寻找食物。

I mean, they spend most of their waking hours moving from spot to spot looking for food.

尤其是雌性，她们承担着孕育和哺乳的重任，食物获取是驱动雌性行为的主要因素。

And especially for females who are, you know, bearing the brunt of of of incubating and lactating babies, food is a big driver of female behavior and having access to food.

事实上，雌性的支配地位能带来更好的食物资源。

And in fact, you know, dominance rank in females confers access to better food.

所以我们知道食物非常重要，但这只是其中一个层面。

So we know that food is very important, but it's one layer.

对吧？

Right?

食物是一个层面，你可以预测黑猩猩会去食物所在的地方。

There's a layer that's food, and you would predict that chimps are gonna go where the food is.

但还有社会关系的层面，也许我不会去那边，因为我不喜欢的那只黑猩猩在那里，你懂吗？

But then there's a layer of social relationships, and maybe I'm not gonna go over there because that chimp I like I don't like is there or you know?

然后还有地形这个层面。

And then there's a layer of just the landscape.

我去过一些平坦如煎饼的黑猩猩栖息地，我当时就想，天哪。

I have visited chimp sites that were flat as a pancake, and I'm like, oh my god.

在加伦湾，我几乎跟不上黑猩猩一小时，因为我们要在这些山丘上上下下跑，而这里的地形却像煎饼一样平坦？

I can I can barely keep up with a chimp for an hour at Galen Bay because we're running up and down these hills and a spot is a pancake here?

这肯定会影响它们决定去哪里、何时去。

That has to make a difference in where they decide to go, when they decide to go.

Fungoli的黑猩猩们，你知道的，那里热得要命，但它们却不在阴凉处。

The chimps of Fungoli, you know, it's a a bajillion degrees, and they're not in the shade.

所以它们会做出非常不同的决定。

So they're they're gonna be making very decisions.

我是说，它们甚至会坐在水里，这太夸张了。

I mean, they go sit in the water for crying out loud.

我们的黑猩猩讨厌水。

Our chimps hate the water.

它们讨厌弄湿脚。

They hate getting their feet wet.

你知道，它们会跳过小溪，如果脚沾湿了，就会表现出不喜欢被弄湿的样子。

You know, they'll jump across the stream, and if their feet dries in it, they'll be like, I don't like being wet.

而Famoli的黑猩猩们，基本上就像泡在热水浴缸里一样。

And then you got chins of famoli, you know, sitting in hot tubs basically.

所以食物当然是一个驱动因素，对大多数动物都是如此，但还有很多不同的层面，可能总体上影响着黑猩猩的决策。

So there's just so so food, of course, is a driving factor as it is for for most animals, but there's so many different layers, that could be potentially driving chimp decision making overall.

而最后一层因素是，这些动物都是独立的个体。

And then the final layer is that these these animals are individuals.

它们有着各自的内心世界，有喜欢一起玩耍的黑猩猩伙伴，也有不喜欢的。

They've got an individual, you know, inner life, a a chimp that they like to hang out with, chimps that they don't.

也许它们对现在的孩子比之前的孩子更有信心。

Maybe they have a kid that they're, you know, more confident about than their previous kid.

作为母亲，在养育了五个孩子后，它们可能已经对融入大群体感到相当自在了。

Maybe they now, as a mother, now that they've had five kids, they're pretty comfortable being with a big group.

所有这些不可分割的因素都会影响它们当天的行为决策。

They've got all this this indivisible stuff going on that's gonna determine what they decide to do that day.

我们的工作就是试图找出这些层次，然后或许还能弄清楚它们之间如何相互作用。

And our job is to try and kind of even just to find the layers and then maybe try and figure out how they interact.

是啊。

Yeah.

把这些因素都梳理出来。

Tease all of that out of there.

说到一个生了五个孩子的妈妈和一个只生了一个的妈妈，这与我们人类这种猿类有何关联？

Speaking of a mom that's had five versus one that's had just one, how does this connect to us as apes, the human ape?

我记得有一次和简一起坐在湖边吃晚餐，她说——我问她如果没研究黑猩猩会研究什么，

I remember sitting with Jane once having eating dinner on the the edge of the lake, and she said, you know, I asked her if you hadn't studied chimps, what would you have studied?

她说：‘我想如果没研究黑猩猩，我会喜欢坐在房间角落里观察人类，但我觉得他们不会允许我整天在小本本上记录他们的行为。’

And she said, I think if I hadn't done chimps, I would love to have sat in the corner of a room and studied humans, but I don't think they would allow me to make notes in their little in my notepad about their behaviors all day long.

那是我第一次把这些关联起来。

And that was the first time in which this all connected for me.

而你研究的是生命最初阶段，我们作为新生儿的时期。

And you study that for the very first points in life, in our in our lives as newborns.

请帮我将这一切与人类联系起来。

Connect all of this to to humans for me.

嗯。

Yeah.

好吧，我先回溯一下，告诉你我为何特别对母子关系产生研究兴趣，这样或许会更清晰。

Well, I I'll back up a little bit and tell you about kind of where where my interest got into specifically focusing on moms and kids, and then maybe that'll become clear.

所以我第一次去贡贝时，是带着研究工具使用以及它们如何完成这些复杂觅食行为的目的去的，更多是从认知文化行为的角度出发。

So I went out to Gombe for the very first time interested in studying tool use and and how they do these complex foraging behaviors, much more from the kind of cognitive cultural behavior bent.

明白吗？

Okay?

所以我读完了简的所有著作，对那些像菲菲、奶奶这样的明星黑猩猩充满期待，渴望见到它们。

And so my I had read all of Jane's books and and kind of had these rock star chimpanzees like Phe Phe and grandma and the kind of that I was excited to meet.

结果我第一天外出考察时，我们就遇到了菲菲。

And, my first day out, we we came upon Phe Phe.

她正在休息，仰面躺着，做了件她家族闻名的事。

And she was resting and she was laying on her back, and she did this thing that her family is famous for.

她用后座把孩子抱了起来。

She she used her back seat to pick up her kid.

这位女士当时正带着孩子乘坐人类飞机。

And this lady was at a human plane airplane with their kid.

她用后座抱起孩子，一边戳弄逗痒，孩子咯咯直笑。

She picked her kids up in a back seat, and she was poking and tickling, and the kid was laughing.

她只是转过头看了看我，因为我是新来的，我们之间并没有心灵感应之类的，但她就是那样看了我一眼。

And she just kinda turned and looked at me because I had newly arrived, and it wasn't you know, we didn't have a mind meld or anything, but she just kinda looked at me.

然后继续做她的事，我当时就觉得，

Went back to what she was doing, I I was just like,

天啊，

man,

你知道吗，我这辈子见过无数次这样的场景。

this you know, I've seen that a million times in my life.

就像父母躺在地上，把孩子举在脚上挠痒痒玩耍。

Like a parent on the ground, you know, holding their kid up on their feet and tickling and playing.

这些相似之处瞬间让我恍然大悟。

So the the similarities clicked for me instantly.

于是我把博士课题定为工具使用技能的发展，主要研究幼崽，这非常棒。

And so I I did my PhD on the development of tool use skills, really focusing on the kids, and that was great.

后来我想超越工具使用的研究，更全面地理解发展过程。

And then I really wanted to go beyond tool use, and I wanted to understand development much more holistically.

对我来说幸运的是，简很早就对母亲和婴儿这一课题有着浓厚兴趣。

And and luckily for me, Jane had, you know, mothers and and babies was a big interest of her from early on.

因此她几十年前就启动了这项长期数据集项目，需要有人将其整理成数据库格式之类的工作。

And so she had started this long term dataset decades ago, and it it kind of needed people to shepherd it into a database format and things like that.

我和同事们很幸运能够承担这项任务。

And I and my colleagues were lucky enough to be able to do that.

而这正好与我开始自己养育孩子的时间相吻合。

And it lined up with the time that I started having kids on my own.

我女儿出生于2005年，那时我们刚启动母婴数据库项目不久。

I had my daughter in 2,005, which is right when we were getting the mother infant database kind of up and running.

我满脑子想的都是：它们也是这样做的吗？

And all I could think about was, are they doing this?

这些黑猩猩妈妈是怎么做到的？

How are these chimp moms doing this?

我也有个宝宝了。

I have this baby.

我有丈夫在身边

I've got my husband.

我有母亲的支持

I've got my mother.

有这么多人帮助我

I've got all these people helping me.

邻居们会给我送食物

I've got neighbors bringing me food.

公司给了我几周的产假

I've got a release from my job for, you know, several weeks.

我拥有全世界的帮助，却仍觉得力不从心

I've got all the help in the world, and I feel like I'm barely holding it together.

而这些独自抚养一两个、甚至三个孩子的黑猩猩单亲妈妈呢？

And how are these single mom chimps with one, two, three kids that they're looking after by themselves?

她们是怎么做到的？

How are they doing it?

这可以说是我真正进入并想要更广泛研究发展的起点。

So that was kind of my my real entree into into wanting to study development more broadly.

而对我们人类来说有趣的是，从我们的近亲——灵长类动物到人类，后代生产的节奏确实发生了显著变化。

And and what is interesting for us humans, there's there's a real shift from the pace of, for labyrinths, offspring production from our poses living relatives, the breonates, to humans.

黑猩猩通常每四到五年生育一次，一般一次一个，虽然我们也见过几例双胞胎。

So chimpanzees have a baby every four to five years, typically one at a time, although we have had a couple of sons and twins.

而且，当那个孩子在营养上依赖大约四五年时，另一个孩子就会到来。

And, when that kid is nutritionally dependent about four or five, that's when the other kid comes along.

对吧？

Right?

在人类中，我们大大缩短了这个间隔期，平均在所有人类社会大约是两年。

In humans, we have greatly kind of shortened that intervoice interval typically to about two years if you live on average across all human societies.

不同之处在于，孩子们开始得到供养。而且他们不仅由母亲供养，还由所有这些合作的照顾者供养。

And the difference there is that kids are start to be provisioned, And they're provisioned not just by mom, but they're provisioned by all these over cooperative caretakers.

对吧？

Right?

因此，人类的育儿方式确实是协作式的，而黑猩猩则不然。

So child rearing in humans is really cooperative, and it is not in chimpanzees.

所以对我来说，有趣的是要理解——我认为只有真正了解我们的起点，才能完全理解人类如何发展到今天。

So for me, what's interesting is understanding kind of I don't think we can fully understand how we got there as humans till we really understand where we started.

那是一种类似猿类、类似黑猩猩的状态，存在这种单亲妈妈体系，而她独自设法完成这一切。

And that is something ape like, something chimp like, where you've got this kind of single mom system, and she's managing to kind of put it together all herself.

这对我来说真正有趣的是，人类出现了这种快速生育的显著转变，而母亲们需要更多帮助。

So that was the real interesting thing for me is that there's this dramatic shift to having kids quicker, that moms need more help with in humans.

因此，为了推测进化轨迹上发生的变化，我们需要扎实地了解可能的祖先状态，那很可能类似于黑猩猩。

And so in order to kind of speculate about what went on in the evolutionary trajectory, we need a really good grounding in what was the likely ancestral state, which was probably something like a chimp chimpanz.

是否存在任何人类群体或部落，其结构与黑猩猩社会有相似之处？

Are there any human groups or tribal groups or anything out there that have any similarity to to a chimp structure at all?

这种互助行为在所有人类文化中都非常普遍。

The helping is really is really broadly described across all human cultures.

母亲们会获得帮助。

Moms get help.

是的。

Yeah.

所以，我的意思是，这也触及了我专业知识的边界，因为我研究的是非人类猿类及同源猿类。

So, I mean, this is stretching the limits of my expertise as well because study nonhuman apes and syngene apes.

但据我理解，这是人类进化史上非常独特的一个方面。

But my understanding is that it's a really unique aspect of human evolutionary history.

我们生育时会有帮手。

We have helpers when we have babies.

而大型猿类，比如大猩猩，确实存在一些类似分工——虽然有人会首先质疑大猩猩的情况。

And the great apes well, assigned some like real assigned who will argue the the gorillas with all first.

这正是我接下来想问的——我们在大型猿类中能看到这种现象吗？

That's where I was going with the next question was do we see this across great apes?

嗯，这个问题很有意思。

Well, so so this is interesting.

大猩猩也是我们的近亲之一，但它们生活在裂变融合的社群结构中，一天中会不断变换共处的群体。

Gorillas are, you know, also one of our very close relatives, and they but they live and set them in these fission fusion community structures where you're kind of changing what group you're hanging out with throughout the day.

它们的家庭结构非常紧密。

Their family structures are very cohesive.

通常有一个繁殖期的雄性首领、其他几只成年雄性、雌性及其所有幼崽，它们整天、每天、无时无刻不在一起。

So you've got typically a breeding male, a couple other adult males, and the females and all their kids, and they're together all day, every day, all the time.

因此形成了一个非常紧密的家庭群体。

So a very cohesive family group.

总体而言，我们认为银背大猩猩会默认族群里的幼崽都是自己的后代。

And by and large, the silverback, we think, makes an assumption that babies in the room are his.

当然它并非总是正确的。

Now he's not always right.

我们从DNA分析中已经证实这点。

We know that from the DNA.

但幼崽在族群中大概率是安全的。

But there's a good chance that a baby in the room is safe.

因此，银背大猩猩确实会更多地与幼崽互动，可以说它们比黑猩猩更积极参与育儿。

And so sclerotides do interact more with kids, and they are more of a involved caremits, so to speak, than chimpanzees.

就像我说的，我们甚至不知道黑猩猩是否意识到死亡的存在，或者说是否有这种概念。

Like I said, we don't even know if the chimpanzees know that there's a death or or have a sense of that.

所以真正有趣的是看看黑猩猩孤儿的数据结果——我们之前讨论过的——以及大猩猩孤儿的情况。

And so what's really interesting is to look at the data at what happens to chimpanzee orphans, which we were talking about before, and gorilla orphans.

黑猩猩孤儿的存活概率在15岁之前都一直低于非孤儿个体。

So chimpanzee orphans, their survival probabilities are lower than non orphans all the way up through about age 15.

但这对大猩猩孤儿并不适用。

That is not the case for herbal orphans.

这些数据已由黛安·弗西团队发表。

And this data has been published by the by the Dian Fossey folks.

只要它们超过两岁（大约断奶的年龄），即使在那之前成为孤儿，它们也能过得很好。

As long as they're above age two, which is around weaning, if they are orphaned up to that point, they do just fine.

它们完全没问题。

They do just fine.

因为它们生活在这种高度紧密的家庭结构中，而不是像黑猩猩那种分裂-融合型、母亲基本独自抚养后代的模式。

But they live in this very cohesive family structure rather than this fission fusion mom is kind of out on her own type of structure like chimpanzees.

所以这并不是类人猿的普遍规律，即母亲就是一切，没有母亲就无法生存。

So it's not a great ape universal that you've got that you've got kind of mom is the end all be all and without mom, you won't make it.

大猩猩的情况并非如此。

That is not the case in gorillas.

是的。

Yeah.

这真的很有趣。

It's really interesting.

而且，没错，群体结构在...是的...两者之间非常不同。

And and, yeah, and the group structure is very different between the Yeah.

在这两者之间，我确信红毛猩猩会垫底，因为你知道，单亲妈妈带着一个幼崽。

Between the two, which I I am sure with orangutans, it would drop to the bottom because, you know, a small single mom and a single baby.

所以

So

单亲妈妈带着一个幼崽。

Single mom and a single baby.

关于倭黑猩猩，目前还没有定论。

And we and the jury's still out on bonobos.

我们目前掌握的倭黑猩猩数据还不足以研究它们长期发育过程中的食叶行为。

We just don't have enough data on bonobos yet to look at real development of leaf selectories on that long period of time.

希望很快就能实现，因为倭黑猩猩与黑猩猩在许多方面存在非常有趣的差异。

Soon, hopefully, we can because, again, bonobos are very different from chimpanzees in very fascinating ways.

所以

So

我想问问你从事这项工作多少年了？二十几年？

I wanted to ask you if you've been at this twenty how many years?

二十多年。

Twenties.

今年是我在贡贝工作的第二十六个年头。

This is the this was my twenty sixth year having worked at Gompe.

是啊。

Yeah.

在这四分之一世纪的研究中，听起来相当了不起，不是吗？

So in a quarter century of of doing this, it sounds sounds pretty massive, doesn't it?

在这二十五年的研究里，你现在对黑猩猩的认知与当初相比有何不同？

In a quarter century of this, what is a chimp now versus what you thought a chimp was?

这个问题的第二部分是：你对人类的认知与现在相比又有何变化？

And and then the second part of that is, what is a human then versus what you think of humans now?

我很想知道你是如何看待我们这些猿类的。

I'm interested in how you perceive us apes.

嗯，就黑猩猩而言，作为一个刚毕业的研究生时和现在相比——就像所有前额叶皮质发育完善的人类一样（是右侧）。

Well, I mean, in terms of a chimp when I was a, you know, newly minted graduate student versus now, I think like all humans with a fairly developed prefrontal cortex, it's right side.

我那时可能以为自己懂得很多，但现在我知道自己几乎一无所知。

I probably thought I knew a heck of a lot more then, and now I know I know almost nothing.

你知道，和许多人一样，我过去对黑猩猩的了解主要来自贡贝研究和其他东非研究基地。

You know, I think I think like many people, what I knew about chimps was largely from the Gombe study and and other East African study sites.

所以现在我对我们已知存在的多样性现象非常着迷，并投入了大量精力去理解。

And so now I'm just I'm very fascinated and very invested in understanding the variation that we now know exists.

当时，我对工具使用技能发展的这个非常狭窄的时间窗口非常感兴趣。

And at the time, I was very interested in kind of this very narrow window of of development of the tool use skill.

而现在，我真正想了解的是这些能力在整个生命周期中是如何发展的。

And now I really want to understand how things progress over the lifespan.

所以我现在正在进行的两个研究项目，一个是母婴互动和幼崽发育，另一个则是衰老过程。

So the two studies I'm working on right now are, yes, mother infant interactions, infant development, but also aging.

因为我想要了解老年黑猩猩会发生什么变化。

Because I want to understand what happens to older chimpanzees.

所以对我来说，我开始以为需要理解的领域已经所剩无几了。

So I think for me, you know, I started thinking that there was very few niches left to understand.

关于黑猩猩的许多事情已经被研究得很透彻了。

Is that lots of things were already known about Chimpanzees.

所以我打算专注于研究图利技能发展这个尚未有人涉足的领域。

So I'm gonna focus on this thing of development of Tulli's skills that people hadn't done yet.

而现在我的观点是，天啊，还有这么多工作要做，因为我们开始积累生命周期数据，比如完整的生命历程和几代黑猩猩的数据，同时我们还能通过非侵入方式了解一些生理内部运作机制。

And now my perspective is, gosh, there's still just so much more to do because we're starting to accumulate the lifespan data, like whole lives and do have generations of chimpanzees along with our ability to understand some of the physiological inner workings non invasively.

所以，你知道，黑猩猩的粪便就像金砖一样珍贵。

So, you know, a chimp poop is like a gold brick.

当你拥有一份已知个体历史的黑猩猩粪便样本时，你可以分析并提出无数问题。

You can analyze and ask so many questions when you've got a fecal sample from a chimp with a known individual history.

你可以研究病毒、细菌、压力、能量平衡等各种问题。

You can ask about viruses, bacteria, stress, energy balance, all kinds of things.

更不用说它们的全部基因关系，这些也能通过粪便样本来分析。

Not to mention all their genetic relationships, which you can do from a fecal sample as well.

对我来说，也许压抑也许不，但二十五年过去了，我只是有更多的问题。

So for me, I feel like maybe a suppressing maybe not, but twenty five years in, I just have more questions.

不过，是的，这就是我喜欢早上工作的原因。

But, yeah, that's why I like to go to work in the morning.

你的第二个问题是关于人类的。

And your second question was about humans.

我们对人类了解多少呢？

And what do we know about humans?

那么我认为我们对人类了解些什么呢？

And what do I think we know about humans?

但让我补充一点。

But let me add this to it.

因为我觉得这也很迷人，就像你提到的，你在2005年有了女儿。

I because I think it's it's also fascinating because of what you were like, you mentioned you had your daughter in 2005.

我的意思是，你在研究黑猩猩的同时，也在形成对人类成长、被照顾和照顾他人的理解。

I mean, you were developing this sense of what a human being was to grow up and be cared for and take care of while you're studying chimps.

我很好奇这如何影响了你对人类及其发展的思考方式。

And I'm just curious how that's affected the way you think about humans and how we develop.

当你观察一群人类互动时，你是否像其他人一样？

And and when you look at a group of humans and they're interacting, do you are you like, you know, everyone else?

你就这么走进去？

You just walk in?

他们都在公园里玩耍。

They're they're all playing in a park.

还是你会观察并思考，嘿，

Or do you look and go, hey.

看他们在公园里玩耍的样子。

Look how they're playing in a park.

这是否以某种方式改变了你对人类的看法？

Has it affected the way you see humans in some way?

嗯，我的意思是，当然，我确实在我的孩子和他们的朋友身上看到了类似黑猩猩的行为。

Well, I mean, definitely, I see chimp like behavior in my kids and their friends for sure.

但这究竟是像黑猩猩，还是仅仅像类人猿？

But is it is it is it chimp like, or is it just ape like?

因为这就是类人猿的行为，而人类也属于类人猿。

Because that's just what apes do, and and humans are apes.

你明白吗？

You know?

当我研究某样东西时，它确实会影响我对世界的看法。由于我研究的是与我们如此相似的动物，这无疑加深了我对世界的理解。

I definitely, when you study something that does color your interpretation of the world and because I study an animal that's so much like us, it definitely encores your interpretation of world.

我是说，政治选举年就是一个绝佳的例子，展现了类似于黑猩猩社会中争夺权力时的支配行为、姿态展示等现象。

I mean, a a political election year is a great example of, like, you know, dominance and posturing and all the things that happen in a chimp society when someone is seeking power.

所以这确实像是戴着有色眼镜看世界。

So it's certainly kind of you see the world through colored glasses.

但对我们人类来说，这种感受并不遥远，因为黑猩猩正是我们的演化源头。

But, for us humans, you know, that's not that's not too far a feel because that is something like a chimp is is where we came from.

这其实正是我提问的动机之一——我想起早期研究者弗朗斯·德瓦尔，他那些关于政治生态的著作总在影射政客与权力斗争。

That that was part of the the motivation behind the question because I I think about someone who was there, Franz de Bois, you know, his writings about the politics and and making reference to politicians and power struggles.

所以我才特别想了解你对人类本性的看法。

And that's why I was wondering what your perspective or or thoughts on on human beings were and all that.

毕竟这要追溯到这项研究最初的命题。

Because again, that goes back to the very beginning of this work.

就像路易斯当年委托简前往研究时，核心问题就是探寻这些演化联系。

You know, as as Lewis asked Jane to go there and and do this work was to begin to like, what are those connections?

这一切的起点究竟是什么样子的？

What was it like when we began all of this?

是的。

And Yes.

对。

Yeah.

弄清楚我们来自的那种强大根基。

Figure out the kind of strong substrate that we came from.

没错。

Yeah.

我认为，对我来说，贡贝故事中的人类部分特别体现在我们研究的这些黑猩猩世代上，从西菲到范尼再到其他个体，这五代黑猩猩。

I think I think with also, for me, a human part of the the Gombe story specifically is we've been talking about these generation of chimps that we've been studying, know, Sify down to Fanny down to whoever, these five generations of chimps.

但这背后也有一段人类历史。

But there's a human history behind that too.

你之前提到过坦桑尼亚工作人员接手数据收集工作的故事。

You referenced it earlier with how the Tanzanian staff taking over the data collection.

让我感到有趣的是，现在和我一起观察贡贝的同事中，有些人的父亲曾与珍共事，他们当时还是孩子或婴儿，而他们的父亲已前往孟买工作。

And what's fun for me is that, you know, there are folks looking at Olmbe now side by side with me, colleagues, who were whose dads worked with Jane, who were kids, were babies, whose father went off to work at Bombay.

而现在他们自己也跟随我在孟买研究黑猩猩。

And now they themselves followed game at Bombay with me.

所以这是代代相传。

So there's generations.

工作人员之间也存在着一种代际传承。

There's a generational kind of transfer in the staff as well.

我们还有出色的员工，他们在坦桑尼亚长大，从小就听着关于Schemps中心的故事。

And we have amazing staff who who grew up their whole lives in Tanzania hearing about how about the stories of the Schemps Center now.

也很期待能参与其中。

Excited to work on it as well.

所以我认为这是贡贝研究中人类维度非常激动人心的部分——现在有多代人来自同一个致力于毕生研究的家族。

So I think that's a really exciting part of the human dimension of the study at Dongle is is now multiple generations of of people coming from a lineage that have worked their whole life's understandings.

这简直可以拍成纪录片了。

That's a documentary.

这真是...我之前从未这样想过，但你提到的这些人类世代延续的观点确实非常引人入胜。

That's a really I hadn't thought of it quite like that, but that's a really fascinating idea that you have these generations of humans there.

你知道，当我一开始问你那个问题时，比如冈贝是什么，它现在与过去相比如何，我的意思是，这正是冈贝有趣的一个方面。

And I you know, when I asked you that question in the beginning, like, what is Gombe and what is it now versus what it was that, I mean, that's an interesting facet of what Gombe is.

你之前在谈话中还提到，现在那里有了实验室设施。

You also mentioned in an earlier conversation the fact that you now have lab facilities there.

你说那里有设备可以挖掘那些‘证据金砖’，这让我想到有个叫‘冈贝生态系统健康计划’的项目。

You have things there that you're able to to mine that brick of gold of of proof, you said, which brings me there's something called the Gombe Ecosystem Health Project.

你能花几分钟谈谈这个吗？

Can you talk about that for just a few minutes?

好的。

Yeah.

从行为生活史和保育的双重角度来看，了解野生黑猩猩面临的健康挑战对我们至关重要。

So the it's really important to us both from a behavioral life history perspective and from a conservation perspective to understand what the health challenges are patients face in the wild.

疾病，你知道，是日常要面对的挑战。

Illness is, you know, a daily a daily challenge.

受伤也是经常要应对的问题。

Injury can be regular challenge.

研究野生动物，尤其是那些你不愿惊扰的野生危险物种时，面临的问题或挑战在于：由于无法获取它们的血液样本或口腔拭子，我们难以了解和诊断它们的健康状况。

And the problem or the challenge with studying wild animals, especially wild and dangerous species that you don't want to purge, is understanding and diagnosing what's going on with them because you can't get a blood sample of a cheek swab.

我们不会直接触碰它们。

We don't lay our hands on them.

因此我们在2004年创建了贡贝生态系统健康项目，旨在全力研究健康问题对个体黑猩猩及种群的影响。

So the Gombe Ecosystem Health Project we created in 2004 to try and really do our best to understand the impact of health on the individual chimps and on population of chimps.

除了之前提到的行为数据收集，我们还会记录人类和兽医学中称为'临床症状'的指标。

And so we do, along with the behavioral data collection that I described to you, we do a collection of what's called in human and veterinary medicine clinical signs.

它们看起来状态如何？

So how are they looking?

有没有咳嗽、打喷嚏？

Are they coughing, sneezing?

是否显得虚弱？

Do they look weak?

走路是否跛行？

Are they limping?

它们有腹泻症状吗？

Do they have diarrhea?

就像兽医给宠物做检查时那样，我们会进行全身评估。

Like, just like, your veterinarian does when you bring your animal in, they do a body a full body assessment.

所以我们也会这样做。

And so we do that as well.

我们从2004年起就一直这么做。

We've been doing that since 2004.

它与行为数据配对使用。

It's paired with the behavioral data.

这样我们就能了解黑猩猩当天的行为表现和外观状况。

So we know, you know, how the chimp has been behaving that day and what they looked like.

但这些金砖般的发现，我们与你能想到的各种学科专家合作——病毒学家、细菌学家、角膜学家、内分泌学泰斗，都是为了最大限度利用这些材料，揭开表象深入本质，了解动物体内的真实状况。

But then these bricks of gold, you know, we partner with every kind of ologist you can imagine, virologists, bacteriologists, keratologists, endocrine legends to try and make the most use of that material and get a look under the hood, you know, find out what's going on inside the animal.

这正是该领域不断进步的原因：新病原体的诊断方法和生理标志物的检测技术层出不穷，几乎每年或每两年，随着新生理标志物的验证，我们都能提出新的研究问题。

And that's where the field keeps advancing because there's new diagnostics for new pathogens and new assays for physiological markers that, we can ask a new question almost every year, every two years as some new physiological marker gets validated.

现在我们能够通过尿液这种非侵入性方式，记录生物体一生中的氧化应激情况。

Now we're able to document kind of oxidative stress, which is stress to the body over the lifetime in a noninvasive measure through urine.

这正是一直令人兴奋的原因——每当有新方法或非侵入性工具出现，我们就能提出不同的问题。

So that that is what keeps it really exciting because we can ask different questions every time a new procedure or a new noninvasive tool comes into the frame.

这就是我们的生态系统健康项目。

And so that is the Ecosystem Health Project.

我们在该项目中设有一些保护目标。

We have kind of conservation aims there.

我们想要识别病原体，并确保尽最大努力防止任何与人类相关的病原体影响黑猩猩，因为这种情况确实可能发生。

We want to identify pathogens and make sure that we're doing our best to prevent any human associated pathogens from affecting the chimps because that can happen.

但我们还想了解它们一生中承受的健康负担类型。

But we also want to know about the kind of burden of ill health over the lifespan.

比如之前我们讨论过，我感兴趣的是如果黑猩猩幼崽在童年遭遇不幸，这种经历会如何体现在它们身上。

So for example, we talked earlier about how I was interested in if something bad happens to a kid in childhood, how is that manifested a chimp kid.

抱歉。

Sorry.

如果黑猩猩幼崽在婴儿期遭遇不幸，这种影响会如何贯穿它们的一生？

If something bad happens to a chimp kid, you know, when they're an infant, how is that manifested throughout their lifespan?

失去母亲无疑是一种重大打击。

Something bad certainly is losing your mom.

我们之前讨论过这一点。

We talked about that.

但也可能是你患上了严重的呼吸道疾病，持续病了一个半月。

But it also could be that you suffered a really horrendous respiratory illness, and you were sick for a month and a half.

这是否会让你走上与其他未受此影响的猩猩宝宝不同的成长道路？

And does that set you on a different path from the other chimp babies that didn't weren't impacted that way?

这里有一些非常有趣的、与人类儿童遭受严重创伤或伤害等情况相似的平行现象，关于人类儿童韧性的研究文献相当丰富。

There's some really interesting, you know, kind of of parallels there with severe trauma or injury or something in human kids that that there's a there's a broad literature and people interested in resilience in human kids.

如果他们遭遇过逆境，我们可以建立哪些机制来帮助减轻这种逆境的影响。

And if they've suffered adversity, where mechanisms we can put in place, to help minimize the effect of that adversity.

但对猩猩而言，我们才刚刚开始探索什么对它们构成逆境体验，以及它们对哪些情况具有超强韧性。

But in chimps, we're just scratching the surface of what is an adverse experience for a chimp, and what are they super resilient to?

我们已知最糟糕的情况就是失去母亲。

The one that we know is really bad is losing your mom.

而且我们知道这对大猩猩来说情况不同。

And we know that that's different for gorillas.

但除此之外，我们才刚刚开始触及年轻猩猩群体多样性的表层。

But beyond that, we're just starting to stretch the surface of what really is diversity in a in a young gym.

这几乎触及到我最后想问的问题之一：冈贝在未来五、十、十五年的发展会怎样？

Almost touches on one of the last questions I wanted to ask you was what is Gombe in five, ten, fifteen, twenty five years?

你如何看待冈贝在未来十到十五年的发展？或者说你希望它发展成什么样？

Like, what do you see Gombe being in, you know, ten, fifteen years, or what would you like to see it be?

显然，我们非常希望长期研究以及运用所有这些工具的能力能够持续下去。

Obviously, at its core, I would very much hope that the long term study and the the ability to implement all of these tools is still ongoing.

对吧？

Right?

我的意思是，我们需要保持这种核心基础设施的延续，才能继续记录这些动物的生活。

I mean, that's what we need is kind of the core infrastructure to continue so that we can continue documenting, the lives of these animals.

我的梦想是能够顺利完成任务。

My dream is to be okay.

我们还没想出如何实现这一点。

We haven't figured out how to do this yet.

我的梦想是能够识别出特定日期里的任何一只黑猩猩。

My dream is to be able to figure out how to sign a given chimp on any given day.

因为你有一半时间在森林里寻找当天想追踪的那只黑猩猩。

Because you spend half the time in your forest half your time in the forest looking to that munchie that you wanna follow that day.

但不知为何，那天它们就是不见踪影。

And for whatever reason, that day they are nowhere to be found.

所以我们无法给它们戴上项圈。

So we can't collar them.

我们也不能给它们植入GPS天线，因为它们有手。

We can't put GPS antennas in them because they have hands.

它们会把设备直接扯出来。

They'll just pick them out.

嗯，我需要有人发明某种工具，这样我们就能在八月的某个周三给Gremlin做标记了。

Well, I need somebody to create some sort of tool so we can sign Gremlin on a Wednesday in August.

我想见到她。

I want to see her.

现在我不确定这是否可行，但你知道，每年都有新技术涌现，想到十年后我们能做什么就让我害怕——因为十年前，我根本没想到我们现在能检测它们感知能力的生理指标。

Now I don't know if that's possible, but, you know, there the the new technologies that come on every year, it terrifies me to imagine what we'll be able to do in ten years because ten years ago, I didn't imagine that that we would be able to, you know, examine physiological markers of how well sent they are, which we can do now.

我知道我想实现什么——就是能找到我想找的那些黑猩猩。

I know what I wanna be able to do, which is just find the chips that I wanna find.

我做不到。

I couldn't do it.

此外，一个读心装置会非常有用。

Also, a mind reading device would be really good.

那会很危险的，想想看，因为那样会

That would be dangerous, think, because that would

是的。

be Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yes.

但这很有趣，因为你之前谈到简时，你不认为人们现在会允许我坐在核心位置，做他们想做的事。

But it's but it's funny because you you talked earlier about Jane, I you didn't think people would allow me to sit in the core right now, what they wanted to do.

当然，很多人研究并不一定这样做，因为他们只是提问，而我们做不到。

And of course, a lot of human studies don't necessarily do that because they just ask questions, and we can't.

而这正是它神秘且令人兴奋的部分。

And that's part of the kind of the mystery of it and what's exciting about it.

所以转念一想，我不确定是否想要读心术，但我肯定希望能找到它们。

So on the second thought, don't know if I want maybe a mind reader, but I'd certainly love to be able to find them.

而且我真的非常希望贡贝的黑猩猩以及野生黑猩猩整体能得到保护和安全，拥有安全的栖息地和受保护的生存区域，因为正面临栖息地危机。

And I also just really want the Gombe chimps and and and wild chimps in general to be protected and safe and have safe habitat and have protected areas to live in because there is a contribution crisis.

黑猩猩的栖息地正在快速消失。

And chimp habitat is disappearing right and left.

气候变化将在这些炎热干燥的地区与之相互作用。

Climate change is going to interact with that in these really hot, dry places.

所以十到十五年后，我真心希望那时的黑猩猩数量至少能和现在一样多，甚至更多。

And so in ten, fifteen years, I just really hope there's just as many chance then as there are now and possibly more.

完全同意。

Absolutely.

最后一个问题。

Last question.

我们该如何传达这些信息？

What how do we communicate this?

这就是我们创建这个播客的原因——帮助分享信息，就像解读你脑海中的想法那样。

I mean, that's why we created this podcast to help share information, like, that that's in in that speaking mind reading is in that mind of yours.

我们需要做些什么，才能更好地向公众传达你的工作，让他们更理解这门科学？

But what do we need to do to do a better job of communicating the work you do to the public so that they understand the science better?

我觉得人们常常把科学视为遥不可及的东西。

They I I think oftentimes we think of science as this thing out there.

你知道吗？

You know?

而且你所做的与我们息息相关，我在想，就像你谈到的这些压力、成为孤儿以及婴儿期的营养问题。

And and what you do is so connected to us on a I think of on it, like, you're talking about these stresses and and being orphaned and and nutrition as a an infant.

这些事情与我们的日常生活、生活方式紧密相连。

Those things are so connected to our daily lives, the way we go about life.

你认为我们该如何更好地向公众传达这些信息，让他们重视你所做的工作呢？

And how do we better communicate that to the public, do you think, so that they value what you do?

我是说，我非常努力地抓住每一个交流机会，就像今天和你交谈一样，同时我也在埃默里大学教导我的学生，并且与公众进行各种互动。

I mean, I work very hard to take every opportunity I have to communicate like I am talking to you today and and teaching I'm teaching my students at Emory University and also just, out and about with the general public.

我认为很多科学家都很难抽出时间来做这些，因为他们的时间被各种压力占据。

I think that many, many scientists struggle to find time to do that because there's all sorts of pressures on your time.

但理想情况下，我认为这应该成为一个优先事项。

But ideally, that would be a priority, I think.

还有，或许可以抛开那些晦涩难懂的科学细节，用人们能够理解和掌握的方式讲述科学故事。

And, also, you know, maybe dispensing with the egghead nitty gritty of the science and just, you know, telling telling scientific stories in a way that people can grasp onto and understand.

人们是否理解DNA分析的工作原理并不重要。

It doesn't matter if people understand how DNA analysis works.

那不重要。

That doesn't matter.

老实说，我自己也不明白它是怎么运作的。

I don't understand how it works, to be quite frank.

重要的是他们明白这是我们可利用的一种工具。

But what matters is that they understand that it's a tool for us to use.

现在我们知道了以前不知道的亲属关系。

And now we know, sailing relationships that we didn't know before.

这让我们能理解为什么那只黑猩猩会对另一只黑猩猩有那种行为。

So that gives us an insight into why that chimp is behaving that way to that chimp.

也许它们知道。

Maybe they know.

你明白吗？

You know?

因此我认为科学家有责任尽可能与像您这样的科学传播者合作，并且要以通俗有趣的方式进行。

So I think it's incumbent on scientists to work as much as possible with science communicators like you, and do it in a way that's accessible and interesting.

而且我认为，很多很多优秀的科学家正在这样做。

And I think, I mean, lots and lots and lots of great scientists are doing that.

我觉得播客形式非常适合，因为人们一天中有时间需要听些东西。

And I think the podcast format is really great for that because people have times in the day that men just need stuff to listen to.

也许他们刚听完泰勒·斯威夫特的最新专辑。

And maybe here, they're done listening to the latest Taylor Swift album.

虽然在我家，那张专辑似乎永远都在播放。

Although in my house, that seems to always be on.

所以我认为存在这样的传播机制。

So I think there's mechanisms.

只是我们需要有动力去做这件事。

It's just that we need we need there to be, you know, motivation to do it.

而有些科学家像我一样具有这种内在动力。

And some scientists have that internal motivation like I do.

而对有些人来说，这更为困难。

And for some, it's more difficult.

我认为我们的资助机构正在做得更好，将科学传播作为资助的必要条件——要求你必须向公众传达你的研究成果，让科普工作成为研究计划的核心部分。

And I think our funding bodies are starting to do a good or a better job at making that incumbent as part of the funding is that you need to communicate what you've done, have communication to the general public about your work be part and parcel of your research program.

不。

No.

从我的角度来看，那将会非常棒，因为我认为如果能将像我这样的人和我们这类专注于科学传播的组织纳入你们的工作体系会很好。

That's the that would be I guess from my perspective, that would be brilliant because I think it would be nice to incorporate people like me and our organization, which is about communicating those things more into what you do.

这样我们就能更紧密地合作，共同传播你们的研究成果。

So we're a bigger part of of working, you know, hand in hand with you to communicate what you do.

是的。

Yeah.

而且像NIH等一些大型联邦资助机构确实有这类要求。

And the bigger some of the bigger federal funders like NIH and the South, they do have that requirement.

所以越来越多人开始接受这种理念——要么视之为必须完成的任务，要么主动寻找引人入胜的传播方式。

And so people more and more are getting on board, so to speak, with, you know, either this is something we just have to do or, you know, if I'm gonna do this, I really wanna try to find ways to do it in an engaging way.

说实话，我的工作比很多人轻松多了，因为黑猩猩太棒了，人们非常喜欢它们。

I mean, frankly, I have much easier job than lots of people because chimps are awesome, and people like them a lot.

人们能看出这些相似性，向大众介绍黑猩猩比介绍其他物种要容易得多。

And people see those similarities, and it's easy to talk to people about chimpanzees, maybe more so than some other species.

当你凝视黑猩猩的眼睛，会看到某种似曾相识的、与你极为相似的存在。

Because you look down the eyes of the chimp and you see something looking like you that that that feels familiar, feels very much like you.

是啊。

Yeah.

确实。

It's a yeah.

要是换成会说话的水熊虫肯定行不通

This talking tardigrades would not have worked

大概吧。

probably.

不过水熊虫也挺酷的，

Tardigrades are pretty cool,

但我觉得它们超级酷。

but I think they're super cool.

要持续做一档关于缓步动物的播客可能会有点挑战。

Trying to have an ongoing tardigrade podcast might be kind of a challenge.

是啊。

Yeah.

是啊。

Yeah.

而且我认为人们需要知道，当然有很多精彩绝伦的自然纪录片，其中不少在科学方面做得非常出色。

And I think it's important that people you know, there's, of course, these wonderful and beautiful nature documentaries and things, many of which do a really good job on the science, and I think that's great.

但我觉得那些将更多科学直接融入故事并与科学家对话的作品也非常重要。

But I think those that integrate more of the science directly into the story and talking to the scientists is also really important.

你，因为你。

You, Elizabeth.

我非常感谢你抽出时间做这个。

I really appreciate you taking the time to do this.

这很棒。

It's great.

我们能抓住这么多乐趣吗？

Can we catch so fun.

我们能不能找个时间再聚一次？

Can we can we try to catch up again sometime?

我很乐意，是的。

I would love Yeah.

关于贡贝正在发生的事情以及

Of on what's happening at Gombe and

当然。

Of course.

正如我提到的贡贝。

As I mentioned Gombe.

贡贝。

Gombe.

他们是被称作贡贝人吗？

Is that what they gombeites?

他们在想什么？

What are they thinking?

不是贡贝人。

Not gombeite.

听起来不像贡贝人，贡贝翁。

That doesn't sound like gombeite, gombeon.

我不知道。

I don't know.

是啊。

Yeah.

不。

No.

这真的...所以听起来确实没什么关联。

It's a really so it doesn't really sound connection.

能和有接触症状的人聊天真的很有趣。

And it's fun to to talk with someone, you know, who's has a contact symptoms.

真的非常棒。

Really truly nice.

所以我非常感激。

So I appreciate it.

嗯，也许将来我们还能在那里再聚。

Well, maybe we can catch up there again someday in the future.

那简直太棒了。

That would be Totally.

是啊。

Yeah.

那会

That'd be

很多 好吧。

a lot of Alright.

谢谢。

Thanks.

谢谢，杰伦。

Thanks, Jaren.

我无比感激伊丽莎白带我重返贡贝，那里正是我伟大援助之旅的起点，那是很久以前的事了。

I can't thank Elizabeth enough for taking me on a return visit to Gombe, where my own great aid journey began long ago.

如果你想了解更多关于贡贝以及伊丽莎白在那里开展的婴儿与黑猩猩健康项目的工作，请务必访问我们的网站talkingapes.org查看配套博客。

If you wanna hear more about Gombe and the work that Elizabeth is doing there with infants and chimps and their health project, do check out the accompanying blog that's on our website at talkingapes.org.

您正在收听的是《会说话的猿类》。

You've been listening to Talking Apes.

我们是深入探讨与我们相似的猿类现状的播客节目。

We're the podcast that gets to the heart of what's happening with and to apes like us.

我们的对话对象来自这个猿类星球的各个角落——作家、研究员、环保人士和科学家们。

Our conversations are with incredible folks from across this planet of apes, writers, researchers, conservationists, and scientists.

我还要感谢整个《会说话的猿类》团队为制作这档播客付出的努力，特别要提到助理制片人德梅尔·祖邦。

I would also like to thank our entire Talking Apes team for all the work they do in bringing this podcast to you, including a special shout out to assistant producer, Demel Zubon.

我还要感谢你们，正是各位捐助者的慷慨支持和分享这档播客，才让我们得以生存和发展。

And I would like to thank you, the donors who have ensured we are alive and growing through your generous support and the sharing of this podcast.

如果你喜欢《会说话的猿》的内容，请访问我们的网站talkingapes.org支持我们。

If you appreciate what you hear on Talking Apes, consider supporting us by visiting our website at talkingapes.org.

最后，和每一季一样，我要感谢那些奋战在类人猿保护第一线的杰出奉献者们。

And finally, as I have every season, I would like to thank the amazing dedicated folks on the front line of great ape survival.

比如在贡贝工作的人们。

Folks like those that work at Gombe.

我们的目标是是让更多人看到你们每天为保障猿类、灵长类及其森林家园的安全所做出的无私付出。

Our goal is to shine a light on the incredible selfless work you do every day to ensure the safety and survival of apes, primates, and their magnificent forest homes.

我是杰瑞·埃利斯。

I'm Jerry Ellis.

感谢您的收听，也请将节目分享给家人和朋友。

Thanks for listening, and thank you for sharing with family and friends the talking apes podcast.