第557集：中国城市的情感消费

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这里是《Talking Headways》，一档关于可持续交通与城市设计的周播节目。

This is Talking Headways, a weekly podcast about sustainable transportation and urban design.

我是杰夫·伍德。

I'm Jeff Wood.

本周我们邀请到了中国上海Y Social的创始人奥利维亚·普洛特尼克。

This week, we're joined by Olivia Plotnick, founder of Y Social in Shanghai, China.

我们将讨论她夏季走访中国30多个城市考察不同零售业态的见闻，高铁带来的影响，以及社交电商生态系统。

We discuss her summer trip to over 30 different Chinese cities to experience different retail, the impacts of high speed rail, and the social ecommerce ecosystem.

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说到围巾，重磅针织自行车围巾已重新到货，而且天气当然也变冷了。

And speaking of scarves, the heavyweight knit bike scarf is back in stock, and, of course, it's getting cold out.

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通常账号是the overhead wire，但Flickr上是transit nerds。

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Some great stuff coming up, so keep on listening and enjoy the show.

奥利维亚·普拉特尼克，欢迎来到《Talking Headways》播客节目。

Olivia Plutnick, welcome to the Talking Headways podcast.

非常感谢邀请我参加。

Thank you so much for having me on.

好的，感谢你的到来。

Well, thanks for being here.

在我们开始之前，能简单介绍一下你自己吗？

Before we get started, can you tell us a little bit about yourself?

我来自俄勒冈州，现在居住在上海。

So I'm originally from Oregon, and I am living in Shanghai.

过去十年我一直生活在中国。

So I've been living in China for the past ten years.

2007年我作为高中生第一次来到中国。

I came to China for the first time in 2007 as a high school student.

当时我所在的俄勒冈州学校是最早开设孔子课堂的学校之一，从那时起我开始学习中文，并在2007年夏天获得了来中国交流的机会。

My school in Oregon was one of the first schools to have a Confucius classroom, and so I started studying Chinese at that time and had the opportunity to come to China for a summer in 2007.

那次经历真正激发了我对这个国家的好奇心，于是我在大学期间继续学习中文。

And that really sparked my curiosity for the country, and I continued to study Chinese in college.

2012年我又回到中国，在北京的大学学习了一段时间。

I came back and went to university for a bit in Beijing in 2012.

然后2015年我再次搬回中国，之后基本上就一直住在这里。

And then I moved back to China in 2015, and I have been here pretty much ever since.

原本只打算待几年，没想到现在已经十年了。

What was gonna be a few years has now turned into ten years.

我现在从事市场营销工作。

So I work in marketing.

我一直都在代理机构工作，曾就职于几家大型广告公司。

I've always worked on the agency side, worked for big agencies.

2019年我离开奥美，创办了自己的社交媒体营销公司。

And then in 2019, I left Ogilvy and I started my own social media marketing agency.

我们帮助外国品牌进入中国市场，制定营销策略或提供全案管理服务，并针对中国的数字生态系统和创新为国际机构提供建议，帮助他们从人们与技术互动的视角来理解这个生态系统的发展现状。

So we help foreign brands come into China and do their marketing strategy or full on account management and really just advise global organizations about China's digital ecosystem, innovation in China, and help them understand what's going on here in the lens of how people are interacting with technology in that type of ecosystem.

你告诉了我们你是怎么来到中国的，但我很好奇，是什么让你留在了那里？

You told us how you got to China, but I'm curious, like, what kept you there?

为什么你想留下来？这个国家有什么吸引你的地方？

Why did you wanna stay and stick around, and what's fascinating to you about the country?

2007年的中国和现在截然不同。

In 2007, China was a very different place than it is now.

我想我们可以在稍后的谈话中再深入探讨这些话题。

And I think we can touch on those themes a little bit later in this talk.

但我在2007年来的时候，就已经感受到一种难以言喻的活力，这是个如此有趣的地方。

But when I came in 2007, I already felt that there was an inexplicable energy, and it was such an interesting place.

似乎每时每刻都在发生着无数新鲜事。

There seemed to be so much happening.

而2012年我在北京求学时，这种感觉更是成倍增长。

And I felt that just multiply when I came back in 2012 when I studied in Beijing.

至今仍记得当时感受到的城市那种令人震撼的脉动。

I just remember feeling this incredible pulse of the city.

那时候，中国正经历着它的繁荣时期。

And at that time, you know, China was going through its its boom times.

对吧？

Right?

经济在飞速增长，一切都在非常迅速地变化。

The economy was growing enormously, and things were changing very, very rapidly.

所以，除了令人惊叹的文化、历史、语言和人民之外，真正让我与这个地方紧密相连的，是变化的速率和速度，以及事物总是不同、新颖和不断演进的方式，这与我成长过程中在美国的体验形成了鲜明对比。

So more than, you know, the incredible culture and the history and the language and the people, I think what really has kept me tied to this place is the rate and the speed of change and just the way that things are always different and new and evolving just felt in such stark contrast to what I had grown up experiencing in The US.

我也很好奇，从城市的角度来看，如果你从2007年就开始去中国，你一定见证了那些变化。

I'm also curious, like, from a city perspective, if you've been going to China since 2007, you've seen those changes.

你目睹了现在居住的上海发生的巨大转变。

You've seen the big turnarounds in the place that you're living in Shanghai now.

我的意思是，你看到那些河流沿岸建筑前后的对比照片。

I mean, that's you see those pictures of the befores and afters of of the river and and buildings that have been built along there.

所以我很好奇你的观点，关于你早期访问过的最大城市与现在之间的差异。

And so I'm curious what your perspective is on, like, the differences between maybe the largest cities you visited early on and what they were then to what they are now.

这个问题问得好。

That's a great question.

在我给机构做演讲时，为了帮助他们直观理解中国的变化速度，我经常会用一张90年代初的上海天际线照片，就是现在浦东陆家嘴那一带。

In my presentations to organizations, when I try to help them visualize the speed of change in China, I often use a picture from the early nineties of what is now Shanghai Skyline, which is the Pudong area of Shanghai across the river there.

在90年代，那里还只是农田。

And in the nineties, it was just farmland.

当时那里几乎什么都没有。

There was nothing really out there.

然后短短二十年后，那里就变成了著名的外滩，有着世界第二高楼（如果我没记错的话）的上海天际线。

And then, you know, within two decades later, it's now the infamous the Bund, the the very famous Shanghai Skyline with the I believe it's the second tallest building in the world.

还有开瓶器和东方明珠塔这些地标。

And then you have, you know, the Bottle Opener and the Shanghai Pearl Tower.

短短几十年间，这些城市就发生了翻天覆地的变化。

So within the span of just several decades, the cities have changed immensely.

有大量人口涌入了城市。

You had a a huge amount of the population moving into the cities.

像深圳这样的城市，原本几乎一无所有，如今却已成为中国最大的城市之一。

You had cities like Shenzhen, which were basically nothing before becoming now one of the biggest cities in China.

重庆也是如此，现在已成为一座巨型城市，而二十年前它还远非今日模样。

Same with Chongqing, which is now a a massive city that didn't really exist in the way that it did just twenty years ago.

但现在有趣的是，很多人正从大城市搬出，回到自己的家乡。

But now what's quite interesting is you have a lot of people actually moving out from the big cities now and going back to their hometown.

所以现在出现了一种逆向迁移现象，当我们思考这些所谓的'更乡村化'城市的发展时，这非常有意思。

So you have a little bit of a reverse migration going on, which is also very interesting when we think about the development of these, quote, unquote, more rural cities.

在中国，有一种城市分级体系。

Or in China, there's a tier system.

这并不是官方分类。

This isn't an official classification.

比如，政府并不对城市进行等级划分。

Like, the government doesn't classify what tier cities are.

实际上这是一个相当复杂的排名体系。

It's quite a complicated rankings system, actually.

运营优质Substack的大卫·菲什曼写过几篇精彩文章，详细解析了这套城市分级体系，如果你想深入了解可以查阅。

David Fishman, who runs a really great substack, has some beautiful articles on how this ranking system works if you wanna dig deeper into that.

但基本上，上海、北京、广州这些都属于一线城市。

But, basically, you know, Shanghai, Beijing, Guangzhou, those are called first tier cities.

随着你往西部走、进入更偏远地区，城市等级会逐渐降为二线、三线、四线、五线，这取决于当地GDP、人口规模等综合因素。

And then as you kind of go go more west and get more rural, the cities go down to second tier, third tier, fourth tier, fifth tier, and it depends on their GDP and population and a whole number of factors.

而现在新兴的二三四线城市，正迎回那些曾迁往北上广的游子返乡。

But now you have the emerging cities, so second, third, and fourth tier cities, getting people who had moved to the big cities of Shanghai and Beijing coming back to their hometown.

这些低线城市、新兴城市正成为推动中国经济增长的重要引擎。

And these lower tier cities, these emerging cities are now powering a lot of growth in China.

它们是GDP增速更快的城市群体。

So they're the cities that are having a lot higher GDP growth.

当地消费者信心指数也显著更高。

They're the cities that consumers are a lot more optimistic in.

这些城市生活成本更低，因此人们实际可支配收入反而更高。

They're cities where, you know, the cost of living is a lot cheaper, and so people are able to technically spend more.

中国大部分人口实际上居住在这些新兴城市中，因此它们正成为中国当前一个非常重要的焦点和有趣的发展区域，尤其是在上海等大城市之外发生的所有变化。

The majority of China's population are actually living in these emerging tier cities, so it's becoming quite a big focal point in an interesting area for China now, everything that's happening outside of cities like Shanghai.

我最近刚和某人聊过关于上海和城市的话题。

I was having this conversation with somebody recently about the city of Shanghai and cities in general.

上海对我来说是一座极其特别的城市。

Shanghai is an incredibly special city to me.

它确实非常庞大。

It is it's massive.

你知道吗？

You know?

这是一座拥有2400万人口的城市，城市里蕴含着如此多元的个性。

It's a city of 24,000,000 people, and there are so many different personalities to the city.

外滩和南京西路等区域非常受欢迎，旅游气息浓厚，人流密集。

You have areas like the Bund and West Nanjing Road that are very popular, very touristic, very crowded.

而你也可以深入城市如徐汇这样的区域，那里曾是法租界所在地。

And then you can get into areas of the city like Shuhway, which was formerly called the the former French concession.

这片区域两旁种满了美丽的树木，非常安静。

And this is an area that is lined with these beautiful trees, and it's very quiet.

这里有漂亮的法式弄堂房子，非常浪漫。

And there's beautiful French style lane houses, and it's very romantic.

你可以骑着自行车穿过这个区域。

You can ride your bicycle through this area.

路边会有卖水果的人，感觉就像一个小地方。

You know, you'll have people on the side selling fruit, and it feels like a very small place.

还有静安区，商业化程度稍高些，但仍保留着那种浪漫的小城氛围。

And you have Jing'an District, which is a little bit more commercialized, but still, you know, kind of has that romantic small city feel.

这座城市有太多不同的元素让它如此独特，而且一切都在不断变化发展。

So there's so many just different elements to the city that make it very unique, and everything is always changing and evolving.

特别是过去五年间，上海经历了很多，也发生了巨大的变化和发展。

And especially over the past five years, you know, Shanghai has been through a lot, and it has evolved a lot and changed a lot.

但它依然保留着那种作为前沿城市的本质，永远在推动变革和现代化。

But it it still retains kind of this essence of a place that, you know, will always kind of be at the forefront or a place that is always pushing forward change and modernization.

国内其他地方的人怎么看待上海？

How does the rest of the country think of Shanghai?

这取决于你问的是谁。

It depends on who you talk to.

某种程度上来说，

Kind of the

这是个有点尖锐的问题，因为我听说过上海和其他地方可能有点不一样。

general kind a pointed question because because I've heard things about how, you know, the Shanghai is a little bit of a different place than maybe the rest of the country.

是的。

Yeah.

我认为，一方面，有人会告诉你，上海人很高傲，他们为自己的城市感到非常自豪。

I think, you know, on one end of the spectrum, people will tell you, oh, people from Shanghai are so stuck up and, you know, they're so proud of their city.

对吧？

Right?

但我觉得，总的来说，重要的是要认识到人们把上海视为一个节奏非常快、压力很大的城市。

And but I think, generally, one of the things that's important to recognize is that people view Shanghai as a very, very fast paced city with a lot of pressure.

生活成本非常高，人们生活压力很大。

It's very expensive, very tough for people to live.

所以当我与三四线城市的人交谈时，我通常会问他们对上海有什么印象。

So when I was speaking to people in third and fourth tier cities, and I would usually ask them what their impression of Shanghai is.

他们首先会说的就是很庆幸自己没有生活在上海。

And that would be one of the first things that they would say is that they were thankful that they didn't live in Shanghai.

他们很庆幸不用承受在上海生活的压力。

They were thankful that they didn't have the pressures of living in Shanghai.

特别是在当前这个特殊时期，中国房地产市场存在很多问题。

Now particularly in this specific moment, there's a lot of issues with the real estate market in China.

房价大幅下跌，这给经济带来了巨大压力。

So housing prices have dropped dramatically, and this has caused real huge pressure on the economy.

在上海这种情况尤为明显，因为这里的房价曾经非常高，所以很多人投资了房地产。

And this is particularly true in Shanghai where housing prices were really, really high, so a lot of people invested into real estate.

很多上海人把资金都投在了房地产上。

A lot of people in Shanghai have their money in real estate.

所以他们确实感受到了这种压力。

And so they're really feeling the pressure.

对于生活在上海以外的人来说，他们相当庆幸当前经济上的巨大压力没有过多影响到他们，因为他们并不生活在像上海这样的城市。

So for people who are living outside of Shanghai, they're quite grateful that, you know, this huge pressure on on the economy right now is not so big on them because they're not living in in a city like Shanghai.

而且整个经济环境也面临着更广泛的压力。

And you also have this wider pressure in the economy.

我们称之为内卷。

We call it involution.

这种类似于老鼠赛跑的概念，一场永无止境的竞争，长远来看并不会真正给你带来任何好处。

So this kind of idea of the rat race, this never ending rat race that doesn't really give you any benefit in the long run.

我认为人们确实将上海视为这种内卷的中心，人们在这里进行着无休止的竞争。

And I think people really view Shanghai as the center for that, where people are in the rat race.

他们过着一种并不充实的生活，承受着巨大压力，却赚不到多少钱，因为生活成本太高，再加上房地产问题。

They're kind of living a not a fulfilling life with a lot of pressure, not making a lot of money because cost of living is so high and and the real estate issue.

所以我认为人们都清楚，上海是个大城市。

So I think people recognize, you know, Shanghai is a big city.

那里有很多机会。

There's lots of opportunity there.

但今年夏天我与许多城市外及中国各地的人交谈后感受到的是，他们不愿意搬到那里。

But the feeling that I got this summer from talking to a lot of people outside of the city and all over China was that they wouldn't move there.

对他们来说住在那里不值得。

It's not worth it for them to live there.

我想聊聊你的旅程，正是这次旅程让我注意到了你的工作。

Well, I wanna talk about your trip because that's what brought your work to my attention.

你在《Campaign Asia》这个数字刊物上发表了这篇文章，今年夏天你用六十天走访了三十座不同的城市，观察零售业差异等，还去了茶馆之类的地方闲逛。

You wrote this item in in this digital publication called Campaign Asia, and you took a trip this summer to 30 different cities in, like, sixty days to see the differences in retail among other things, hanging out and going to tea shops and things like that.

不过我很好奇是什么促使你进行这次旅行？在走访全国这么多城市的过程中，有哪些让你印象深刻的事情？

But I m curious what spurred you to take that trip and what are some of the things that stood out to you going to all these cities in the rest of the country?

我在中国已经生活了十年，大部分时间都在上海。

So, have been living in China for ten years now and I spend most of my time in Shanghai.

就像我之前提到的，现在很多增长来自新兴城市，而非上海、北京这样的城市。

And like I mentioned earlier, there's a lot of growth that's coming from now emerging cities and not cities like Shanghai and Beijing.

根据我的经验，真正了解和认识中国的唯一方式就是亲身去体验。

And I know from experience that the only way that you can really understand and know China is to experience it firsthand.

所以我萌生了一个想法，去尽可能多的中国城市实地感受脉搏。

And so I had this idea to go and really just get a pulse check on as many different cities as I could around the country.

我专门划出两个月的时间，计划在这段时间内合理走访约30个城市。

And so I dedicated a time period of two months, and I planned out that I could reasonably get to about 30 cities within that time frame.

所谓的'合理'，对不同人可能有不同定义。

Reasonably, maybe means different things to different people.

这种密集的行程对身心都是巨大考验，但我几乎走遍了中国所有省份，主要聚焦在二三线城市。

It was pretty physically and mentally grueling to do that type of travel schedule, but I made it to almost every single province around China, And my focus was on tier two, tier three, tier four cities.

就像你提到的，主要追踪零售、旅游、青年文化、美容、健康等领域的趋势。

And as you said, you know, tracking trends in retail, tourism, youth culture, beauty, health and fitness.

真正想了解这些低线城市消费者的行为模式，以及这些城市的发展状况。

So really just trying to understand what consumer behavior looks like in these lower tier cities and also really understand how these lower tier cities have developed.

2015年我刚回到中国时，住在一个所谓的'小城市'——上海附近江苏省一个人口约600万的城市。

So when I first moved back to China in 2015, I was living in a, quote, unquote, small city of about 6,000,000 people just outside of Shanghai in Jiangsu province.

在那第一年，我花了大量时间走访三四线城市。

And I spent a lot of time going to third and fourth tier cities during that first year.

因此我对十年前那些城市的样子有着相当清晰的印象。

And so I have a pretty good picture in my mind of what those cities looked like ten years ago.

所以我现在想在心里构建这些城市的发展图景——它们是否只是大城市的缩小版？

And so I wanted to kind of now, you know, put in my mental map of how those cities have developed and are they just, you know, smaller versions of larger tier cities?

它们是沿着相似的轨迹发展，还是走出了完全不同的道路？

Have they followed a parallel track or have they developed differently altogether?

说实话我不确定'震惊'这个词是否准确，因为在中国已经很少有什么事能真正震惊到我，但发现这些城市的发展速度远超我的想象，而且发展路径与一线城市截然不同，这确实非常有趣。

And I was really I don't know if shocked is the right word because I don't know if much shocks me anymore about China, but I found it quite interesting to uncover that a lot of these cities had really developed much faster than I would imagine and in a different way than I think first tier cities have developed.

我的意思是，现在很多低线城市都拥有了非常高档的购物中心。

So what I mean by that is a lot of these lower tier cities have now very premium malls in them.

十年前，购物中心要么是非常本土化的，要么在较大的城市可能偶尔会有一两个奢侈品牌入驻，但这种情况相当罕见。

So ten years ago, shopping centers were either very, very local shopping centers or maybe, perhaps, if it was a larger city, they might have a luxury brand there, but that would have been pretty rare.

那时候你很难看到外国品牌，甚至高端品牌的身影，更不用说众多优质的国产品牌了。

So you didn't really have the presence of, you know, foreign brands or even necessarily of more premium brands and certainly not of many high quality Chinese brands.

如今，在这些新兴层级城市中，出现了像MixC这样的高端商场，它们引入了更多优质品牌——不一定是顶级奢侈品牌，而是像Salomon或HOKA这类小众高端运动品牌。

Nowadays, in these emerging tier cities, you have premium malls like mix C mall, which will house more premium level brands, not necessarily the big luxury brands, but they could house more premium brands such as like a Solomon or a HOKA, which are kind of niche premium fitness brands.

商场里还会有许多高品质的中国品牌，包括不少中国电动汽车品牌。

They will have a lot of really high quality Chinese brands, a lot of EV, Chinese EV brands in the mall as well.

因此，这些新兴城市的消费者在步入中产阶级时，接触到的是一套完全不同的、我称之为'向往型品牌'或'向往型生活方式'的体系，这与他们前辈进入中产时所见截然不同。

And so now consumers in these emerging tier cities are entering the middle class, and they're being exposed to a totally different set of what I would call, like, aspirational brands or aspirational lifestyle than their counterparts kind of came into the middle class seeing.

他们现在看到的景象不再是'外国品牌最优且唯一'，而是琳琅满目的高端中国品牌与众多小众外国品牌并存的局面。

So what they're coming in and seeing is no longer, you know, foreign brands are the best and the only choice, but they're coming in and they're seeing a wide variety of really premium, really advanced Chinese brands alongside a lot of very niche foreign brands as well.

我认为这正在重塑这些新兴城市的消费者行为和消费文化。

So I think that is reshaping kind of consumer behavior and consumer culture in these emerging cities.

同时，我也将其与美国进行对比。

As well, I, you know, make the comparison to The US.

必须承认，过去十年我在美国停留的时间较少，而且在美国的旅行范围远不如在中国广泛。

So, admittedly, I haven't spent as much time in in The US over the past ten years, and, certainly, I haven't even traveled The US as extensively as as I have traveled China.

但我仍不禁会思考：中国的三四线城市与美国的三四线城市究竟有何异同。

But I couldn't help but to compare, you know, what would be a Chinese third and fourth tier city to what would kind of be an American third or fourth tier city.

我认为在美国，我们仍抱有这种心态——我们是世界上最棒的国家。

And I think in The US, we still have this mentality of, you know, we are the best country in the world.

我们是世界上最富有的国家。

We're the wealthiest nation in the world.

我们拥有最好的东西。

We have the best thing.

我们享有最便利的渠道。

We have the access.

我们做事远比其他任何国家都出色。

We're doing things much better than than anybody else.

但事实绝非如此。

And that is just so not the case.

中国已建成令人惊叹的基础设施体系。

China has an incredible infrastructure set up.

他们拥有卓越的铁路系统。

They have an incredible train system.

他们拥有令人惊叹的高速公路。

They have incredible highways.

他们拥有令人惊叹的道路。

They have incredible roads.

他们拥有非常高科技的交通方式。

They have very, very high-tech transportation modes.

他们在各方面都拥有惊人的数字基础设施。

They have incredible digital infrastructure for everything.

当你看看国内电动汽车的发展，我认为美国的充电站数量只是中国的极小一部分。

When you look at just kind of the development of EVs within the country, I think The US has a tiny, tiny, tiny fraction of the number of EV charger stations that China has.

我最初在旅途中关注的事情之一就是每个城市电动汽车的使用情况。

And one of the things that I was initially tracking on my trip was how the usage of EVs were in each city.

因为在上海，过去五年里这是许多人来到这里后最先注意到的最显著变化之一。

Because in Shanghai, just within the past five years, that's one of the biggest things that a lot of people notice when they come here.

你知道，他们可能是在疫情前来过，然后在2024年或2025年又回到上海。

You know, maybe they visited pre pandemic, and then they come back to Shanghai, you know, in 2024 or this year in 2025.

他们立刻会说的第一件事就是电动汽车的普及程度令人难以置信。

And that's immediately the first thing that they'll say is it's incredible, the adoption of EVs.

你知道吗？

You know?

感觉路上90%的车都是电动车。

It feels like 90% of the cars that you see on the road are EVs.

所以我当时不知道这是否仅限于这些大城市。

And so I didn't know is that only in these larger cities.

于是我计划着，好吧，

So I had planned to kind of, you know, okay.

普及程度看起来是低、中还是高？

Is does it seem low, medium, or high?

在我走访了大约10个城市后，我就不再追踪普及情况了，因为每个城市的电动车普及率似乎都很高。

And about 10 cities into my trip, I stopped tracking adoption just because every single city, it seemed like the adoption rate of EVs was high.

我甚至无法分辨出普及率的差异，尤其是在这些小城市里。

There was no point in where I felt like I could even discern between the adoption rate, especially even in in these smaller cities.

这很大程度上要归功于政府确保全国范围内充电站建设完善，当然他们还提供了大量补贴鼓励人们购买电动车。

And that has really been in part to, you know, the government making sure that charging stations were well built out all over the country, and they, of course, offered a lot of subsidies for people to buy EVs.

而且市场上竞争非常激烈。

And there's, you know, so much competition in the market.

显然这在当前有利有弊，但这确实大幅压低了消费者购买电动车的价格。

Obviously, that's good and bad right now, but that drove down the price of EVs for consumers a lot.

单就这一点来看，我认为这对许多美国人而言是个需要面对的残酷现实——当你看到路上跑的车辆，甚至在中国许多城市正在测试的大量无人驾驶汽车、无人驾驶公交车和送货车辆时。

So just, you know, looking at that alone, I think, is quite a stark reality for a lot of Americans to reckon with of, you know, just when you see the cars on the road and even in cities that are now testing a lot of driverless cars, a lot of driverless buses and delivery vehicles as well in China.

因此这个行业正在以非常迅猛的速度发展。

And so that industry is developing at a very rapid pace.

我只是对从未去过中国的人对中国的看法非常感兴趣。

I'm just so interested in, like, the perception of China from folks who have never been there.

作为一个去年才开始去中国，现在已经去过多个不同城市两次的人，中国当地的实际情况与外界认知的差异简直天壤之别。

And as somebody who's just recently started going last year and now been twice to a number of different cities, the reality of what is on the ground in China versus, like, what the perceptions are outside of is wildly different.

对吧？

Right?

人们的认知以及媒体整体上对现状的报道，真是令人难以置信。

It's just, like, amazing what people's perceptions are and what they're told by the media overall about what is going on.

现在我想把高层政治事务与亲身经历的系统性事务区分开来，比如你提到的所有支付系统、数字基础设施、电动汽车——当你去到一个城市，你能分辨出哪些车是电动车，哪些不是，通过车牌就能知道。

And now I want to separate like high level political stuff from just like the in person systems approach stuff that's going on like all of the payment systems that you talked about digital infrastructure, the EVs when you go to a city, know, you can see which cars are EVs and which ones are not because license plates.

一个是绿色车牌，一个是蓝色车牌，对吧？

One's green and one's blue, right?

所以你可以在路上看到所有绿色车牌的车。

So you can see all the green license plates on the road.

甚至像导航应用这样的小细节，它会告诉你前方红绿灯还剩多少秒，有些路口有倒计时显示，即使没有显示的，应用也可能告诉你剩余秒数。这类小细节让你一到那里就会感叹：这里有这么多正在发生的事情，却没人谈论。

Just little things like even like your navigation app, it'll tell you how many seconds are left on the light in front of you, and there's countdown clocks, but even on the ones that don't, they might tell you how many seconds are left on the Little things like that, you go there and you're just like, wow, there's so much stuff going on here that nobody ever talks about.

是的。

Yes.

确实如此。

Exactly.

有趣的是，我旅行期间上传了很多视频。

And it's funny because I was uploading a lot of videos when I was doing my trip.

我会为每个到访的城市上传每日vlog，甚至连那些长期了解我在中国生活的亲朋好友们

I would upload a daily vlog of every city that I went to, and even I had close friends and family members who have known of my life in China for a long time.

他们给我的许多评论都是'哇'

So many comments that I got from them was, wow.

看到中国这么多小城市，让我感觉在美国生活的自己才像是生活在第三世界国家

Looking at all of these more rural cities in China makes me feel in America like I'm the one living in a third world country.

是啊

Yeah.

我看过你的几个视频，可能你的目标和去的地方和其他人有些不同，但确实如此

And I saw a couple of your videos, and you might be also, like, you know, your your targets and your places that you go might be a little bit different than some of the other ones, but it is true.

我的意思是，我去过一些三线、四线城市，甚至二线城市也去过

Mean, like I was in, you know, maybe third or fourth tier cities, second tier cities.

我在台湾也待过，还去过珠海，但就像你说的，8，你可以去附近的大城市，但有趣的是你在那里看到的基础设施，一切都很完善。我们开车往返太原和大同的时候，你可以看到所有的火车，你知道高铁轨道横跨而过

Was in Taiwan and I was in Dettong, Zhuhai, but they're approximate like you can get to other big cities that are nearby, but it's interesting what you see when you're there in terms of the infrastructure and everything and we were driving between Taiyuan and Dathong and you could just see all the trains, you know, the high speed rail tracks going across.

我是说48000英里的高铁里程，这确实很多，对吧？

I mean 48,000 miles is a lot of high speed rail, right?

就像他们很快就要达到5万公里了，高铁无处不在，你能看到玉米地，但同时也能看到高铁，这种并置的景象让人惊叹于其中的差异。

Like they're getting to 50,000 soon just everywhere and you can see the cornfields, but then you see the high speed rail and it's kind of like this juxtaposition that's quite amazing to see the differences.

我也非常感兴趣，之所以想和你聊聊，是因为你在报告中特别提到的零售业部分。

I'm also really interested, and the reason why I wanted to talk to you too is what you wrote in the report, specifically about retail.

我是说，你谈到了所有这些不同的商场和零售空间。

I mean, you're talking about all of these different malls and retail spaces.

在美国，这些地方几乎都被连锁店占据，或者说缺乏选择。

In The United States, are overrun almost by chains and by lack of choices, I should say.

你们有沿街购物中心、大型商场、生活方式中心，对吧？

You have strip malls, have the big malls, you have the lifestyle centers, right?

这些就是你们现有的不同类型选择。

Those are the different types of choices that you have.

有户外购物中心、市中心商圈，有些地方经营惨淡，有些地方可能做得不错。

You have outdoor malls, you have downtowns and things that in some places are suffering, in some places they might be doing well.

特别是在旧金山这里，市中心真的很萧条，但如果你去市郊的斯通镇，那里却非常繁荣。

Here in San Francisco specifically, like downtown is really suffering, but if you go out to Stone's Town, which is on the outskirts, it is really doing well.

所以你会看到这种奇怪的并置现象，但当你去到中国，又会看到所有这些不同的地方。

And so you have this weird juxtaposition there, but then you go to China and you see all these places.

我们当时住在北京的一家莱佛士酒店，属于新加坡集团。

We were, staying in Beijing in a in a Raffles property, which is a Singaporean group.

听起来就像你提到的混合业态，他们有电动车销售，有你提到的所有那些品牌，比如所罗门、HOKA，还有泡泡玛特——这个我等会儿也要跟你聊聊。

It sounded like the mix seed that you were talking about, which is, you know, they have EV sales, they have all those brands that you were talking about, the Solomons and the HOKA's and the Pop Marts, which I'm going to talk to you about in a second too.

而且本土的中国品牌看起来也非常现代化。

It also seemed very modern in the local Chinese brands.

就富裕程度而言，它确实相当不错——当然比不上去澳门那些地方，那里满眼都是芬迪之类的奢侈品，完全是另一个层次，我也见识过。

It was very well-to-do in terms of I mean, it's not as well-to-do as going to Macau and going to some of the places there and having all the Fendi and whatever else that that's a whole other level that I've seen as well.

但所有那些快闪艺术家之类的，确实构成了一种有趣的体验，特别是当你联想到美国的购物中心时。

But all the pop up artists and things like that, like it's just like an interesting experience, especially when you think about malls in The United States.

去年我去中国时，到访珠海、香港、深圳和澳门，感觉像是回到了美国80、90年代的商场文化，这种时光倒流的感觉很奇妙，但它同时也代表着未来。

When I went to China last year, when I went to Zhuhai and Hong Kong, Shenzhen and Macau, I felt like I was back in 1990s 1980s mall culture in The United States, which is really a fascinating kind of back in time, but it is the future as well.

所以我想请你谈谈这个观点——关于商场文化的差异，以及人们在不同购物中心或聚集场所的体验差异。

So I am wondering if you talk to that idea a little bit of like the mall culture, the differences between these experiences that people have when they go to shopping malls or the places where people congregate.

中国是一个非常有趣的市场，因为竞争异常激烈。

China is a really interesting market because there's so much competition.

你知道，美国是少数几个以本土品牌为主的市场之一。

It's one of the only places you know, in The US, you have majority US brands.

对吧？

Right?

在欧洲，主流品牌也大多来自欧洲本土。

In Europe, you have majority European brands.

但在中国，九十年代改革开放后，来自欧美和世界各地的品牌纷纷涌入中国市场，因为他们看到了机遇。

But in China, you know, when it started opening up in the nineties and February, you had brands from Europe and The US and all over the world start to flood the China market because they saw the opportunity.

对吧？

Right?

所以最初是国际品牌相互竞争，现在本土品牌也加入了战局。

So already you have all these brands competing, and now you have domestic brands competing as well.

很难想象还有哪个国家能同时承受来自全球品牌和本土市场的双重激烈竞争。

So it's hard to think of another country where there is so much intense competition from brands all over the world and within their own domestic market.

因此，竞争会推动创新。

So that, you know, competition forces innovation.

对吧？

Right?

这可能是一个普遍现象，我们可以将其与中国许多方面联系起来，为什么感觉中国遥遥领先，就是因为市场竞争太激烈了，所以迫使各方面都要做得更好。

And that's probably a a common theme that we can link to for many things for for China and why it feels so much farther ahead is because there's just so much competition within the market, so it forces things to be better.

就零售业而言，现在看到的一个非常有趣的现象是，中国的数字生态系统发展非常迅速。

In terms of retail, what's really interesting now to see, China advanced very quickly in terms of its digital ecosystem.

中国有许多不同的社交媒体应用，可能有些人今年早些时候对小红书有所了解。

So there are many different social media apps in China, which maybe some people are familiar with Rednote from earlier this year.

当然，大家对TikTok也很熟悉。

And, of course, people are familiar with TikTok.

在中国，他们有一个几乎相同的版本叫抖音。

So in China, they have pretty much a similar version called Douyin.

但中国拥有非常先进的社会化电商生态系统，其中直播带货在中国也非常普遍。

But China has a very, very advanced social commerce ecosystem, which also includes live streaming is very prevalent in China.

直播电商在中国应用非常广泛，其发展水平远超西方国家。

Live streaming ecommerce is very, very heavily used and far more advanced than than what's happening in in the West.

当你能在网上完成所有事情、买到所有东西时，现在的问题就变成了：

And so when you can do everything and get everything online, now it's more, okay.

那么线下还能做什么呢？

Now what can you do offline?

因此品牌方开始思考如何真正在线下吸引消费者，这与以往的模式截然不同。

And so brands are kind of starting to have this reckoning of how do we actually engage people offline, and that looks very different to previous models.

就像你刚才说的，回到美国的购物中心，感觉就像回到了九十年代，我完全同意你的看法。

You know, you just mentioned that when you go back to a mall in The US, it feels like you're going back to the nineties when you kind of compare the two, and I completely agree with you.

中国的零售业现在正变得非常注重体验驱动。

Retail in China is now becoming very, very experience driven.

我相信这种趋势也将在西方开始出现。

And I believe that is going to start being the case, you know, in the West as well.

这一趋势目前正在全球化，但中国已经遥遥领先。

That trend is is going definitely global at the moment, but China is already very, very ahead.

因此，这些购物中心和旗舰店的建造理念正在转变，不再那么关注每平方英尺的投资回报率，而是更多地将店铺视为一个营销渠道。

And so you have these shopping centers and you have these flagship stores that are being built less around, okay, what is the ROI per square footage of this store and more around this store is a marketing channel.

我们如何让消费者体验我们的品牌宇宙？

So how can we let the consumer experience our brand universe?

尤其是上海在这方面做得非常出色。

In particular, Shanghai does this very, very well.

上海市内有许多令人惊叹的零售体验。

There are many incredible retail experiences in the city of Shanghai.

我可以举几个例子。

I can give you a few examples.

离我几个街区远的地方新开了一家店，橱窗里有一只巨大的斑点狗飞过，这东西真的非常大。

There's a store that just opened a few blocks down the street from me that has massive dalmatian dog flying through the window, and this thing is is huge.

它占据了整个店面，当你走进店里，还会看到一个巨大的斑点狗头装饰。

It takes up the entire storefront, and then you kind of enter the store, and there's this massive, massive dalmatian dog head in the store.

进入店铺后，每个试衣间都设计精美且各具特色，它们专为能在里面拍照而打造。

And when you enter in the store, each of the fitting rooms is beautifully designed, but very, very unique from each other, and they're built specifically for being able to take photos within them.

所以灯光效果非常出色，四周都装有镜子。

So the lighting is is really good, and there's mirrors all around.

然后，当你上到二楼，又会是另一番美妙的体验。

And then, you know, you go up to the 2nd Floor, and and it's another just, you know, beautiful experience.

店内还设有一家咖啡店。

There's a coffee shop within the store.

紧邻它的另一家店铺是一位中国设计师的品牌。

There's another store right next to it, which is a a Chinese designer.

走进店内，空间设计极为精美，还设有一个可以佩戴耳机的小区域，播放着设计师生活中极具沉浸感的原声音乐。

And you go in and and the store is really beautiful, and they have a little area where you can put headphones on, and they've recorded this kind of very immersive soundtrack from the designer's life.

这样你就能真切体验到那位设计师的精髓与创作瞬间。

So you're really experiencing the essence of that designer and the moment.

这类体验在上海正变得越来越普遍，核心在于如何建立这种联系，如何让消费者亲历品牌。

So these experiences are becoming more and more common in Shanghai, and it's just more about how you build that relationship, how you allow the consumer to experience the brand.

因为说到底，我可能只会触摸几件商品、试穿一下，但最终很可能会回家通过品牌的微信小程序或天猫等电商平台在线购买——毕竟数字基础设施完善，商品几小时内就能配送到家。

Because at the end of the day, most likely I may touch a few products, try something on, but I'll probably go home and purchase whatever I want from the brands online, either through their WeChat mini program or through Tmall, some of these ecommerce sites, because then it will be delivered to my house within within a couple of hours because that digital infrastructure is all built out.

我认为中国多年来一直以其高度成熟的数字生态系统著称，现在我希望越来越多人开始关注中国实体店如何推动这场惊人的线下体验变革。

So I think China, for many, many years, we talked about their really sophisticated digital ecosystem, and now I hope more and more people will start paying attention to how stores in China are driving this incredible offline experience evolution.

我觉得这非常重要，因为在美国我们主要依靠税收基础和财产税基础，许多城市的运作都依赖于此。

I think that's really important because I know that here we're talking about, like, you know, The United States runs on tax base and property tax base, and a lot of cities operate off of that.

所以如果实体店经营困难，亚马逊或沃尔玛成为你唯一的购物选择，那确实会损害整个零售生态系统以及城镇本身的发展。

And so if your bricks and mortar stores are suffering and Amazon is the only game or Walmart is the only game in town for you, then you really do, hurt the overall ecosystem of retail and and the town itself in the city itself.

比如在旧金山，我们现在就面临如何让人们重返市中心的问题，这同样会损害零售生态系统。

I mean, here in San Francisco, we're having problems getting people back to downtown, and so that hurts the retail ecosystem as well.

因此，创造体验以吸引顾客到实体店消费变得非常重要。

And so that creation of experience to to generate kind of foot traffic to these brick and mortar stores is something that's really important.

我们曾邀请建筑师凯文·凯利上节目，他专门为店铺打造这类体验空间。

We had Kevin Kelly, who's an architect who creates these experiences for stores on the show.

他谈到的一个观点是：美国许多实体店无论如何都无法在价格上与亚马逊或其他大型零售商如Target等竞争。

And one of the things he was talking about is like these stores, a lot of them in United States anyways, are not going to be able to compete with the prices of an Amazon or other really large retailers, a Target or otherwise.

但他强调，你在店内创造的体验才是可能让你真正具备竞争力的关键。

What he says though, is that like the experience that you create in store is what might drive you to be actually competitive.

所以看起来，如果你去中国，去一些像我去过的抽奖中心这样的商场，那种体验确实能吸引人们。

And so it seems like if you're going to, you know, China and you're going to some of these malls like the raffle center that I was at, that experience draws people in.

就像你说的，你可能不会在那里买任何东西，但它确实创造了一个人们仍然会有这些偶遇的地方，人们相遇的地方，他们看见彼此的地方。

You might not buy anything there like you said, but it does, you know, create a place where people still have these collisions, the places where people meet each other, the places where they see.

在商场里，我实际上遇到了一个在中国生活的播客听众，他可以直接去星巴克——你知道的，星巴克到处都是，同时也有一些正在崛起的竞争咖啡品牌。

At the mall, I actually met a person who listened to the podcast who lives in China, who was able to just go to a Starbucks which is, you know, they are everywhere as well and then there is also competing coffee companies that are taking off too.

看到不少瑞幸（Luken）？

Saw a number of Luken or Luken?

瑞幸，对的。

Luken, yes.

瑞幸，是的。

Luken, yeah.

所以从城市建设的角度来看，关于未来会怎样，这是一个非常有趣的讨论——实体店对人们的意义究竟有多大，与线上零售相比，品牌和销售者能做些什么来帮助城市发展。因为城市如此依赖房产税，无论好坏，我们最近还专门讨论过这方面的负面影响，但这就是我们目前的现状。

So it is just a fascinating discussion in terms of what the future is in terms of city building from that perspective, like how much bricks and mortar actually mean to people versus online retail and what the brands and people who are trying to sell items can do to help cities out because I mean, cities depend so much on this property tax, you know, for better or worse, we had another discussion recently about the negatives of that specifically, but, you know, that's where we're at right now.

所以这大致就是我们未来需要努力的方向。

And so that's kind of the direction that we need to go.

从这一角度来看，我觉得你们正在进行的讨论和中国关于这方面的讨论似乎朝着积极的方向发展。

And I feel like the discussion that you're having and the discussion that China is having about this seems in a positive direction from that standpoint.

是的。

Yeah.

我认为这需要巨大的思维转变，尤其是从全球总部层面和业务单元运营方式来看，必须改变那种认为门店就该直接驱动销售的传统观念。

I think it takes a huge mindset shift, you know, especially from global headquarters and the way that business units are run and and have this mindset that stores should be driving sales to shift kind of like, okay.

虽然单位面积的销售额会下降，但我们可以通过其他渠道来推动业务。

The sales per square footage is gonna go down, but we'll drive things from other channels.

而且对许多品牌来说，销售归因分析也确实是个棘手的问题。

And, you know, attribution is is also very tricky for a lot of brands to kind of deal with.

所以这种转型需要重大调整，绝不是简单打造几家体验店就能解决的。

So I think it will take a a big shift, and it's certainly not as easy as just, you know, creating an experiential store.

但重要的是要认识到，我们确实需要从根本上改变对零售业的认知，重新思考如何打造让人们连接与体验的空间。

But I think it's important to recognize that there does need to be a vast change, I think, in how we view retail and and how we create spaces for people to connect and experience things.

跟我聊聊泡泡玛特吧，作为局外人我觉得这个品牌特别有意思。

Tell me about Pop Mart because this is totally fascinating to me from the outside.

我女儿三岁半了。

My daughter is three and a half.

她会去泡泡玛特，你知道那种盲盒，你不太确定会得到什么，这简直让我抓狂，因为我总想看到自己买的是什么。

She would go to Pop Mart and, like, you know, those the pick your box and you're not quite sure what you get, which would drives me crazy because I'm like, I wanna see what I'm getting.

但它基本上就像一家毛绒玩具店或角色商店，所以我对此很好奇，因为它看起来非常受欢迎。

But like it is basically like a stuffed animal store or a character store almost and so I am curious about that because it seems very popular.

无论在哪里、经过哪个商场，泡泡玛特看起来总是人满为患。

It always seems full, no matter where and what mall you might pass.

甚至还有数字自动售货机可以购买，也非常流行。

There is even like, digital vending machines where you can get them that is very popular as well.

我对它在中国作为一种独立现象感到好奇。

Like I am curious about that like, as its own thing in China.

我想很多听众，即使在美国，也会认识Labubu这个名字。

So I think a lot of your listeners, even in The US, will recognize the name Labubu.

Labubu是泡泡玛特的一个角色，今年夏天突然爆红。

Labubu is a Pop Mart character which just went crazy this summer.

你知道的，蕾哈娜也入手了，还有BLACKPINK的成员也买了。

There's a lot of you know, Rihanna picked it up, and the there's singer from BLACKPINK picked it up.

甚至在美国，泡泡玛特新品发售时门店外都排起了长队。

And then, you know, even in The US, there were lines outside of Pop Mart locations for when the new additions would drop.

所以这个夏天，拉布布热潮确实席卷了全球，这本身就很能说明问题——我们之前讨论过中国市场竞争有多激烈，而这种竞争正推动中国品牌走向全球。

So Le Boo Boo fever definitely hit global this summer, which is really, in and of itself, kind of a testament to we were talking earlier about how strong competition is in China, and that competition is forcing Chinese brands to go global.

当你能在中国市场取得成功时，你的产品很可能已经足够优秀，能够在全球市场取得成功。

And when you're able to be successful in the China market, chances are pretty good that you've developed a product so good that you can be successful globally.

泡泡玛特确实做到了这一点。

That's really what Popmart has done.

泡泡玛特以盲盒概念闻名。

Popmart is very famous for the blind box concept.

这并不是他们发明的。

It's not something that they've invented.

虽然这不是新概念，但他们确实在IP平衡上做得很好。

It's not a new concept, but they really nailed down the balance between IPs.

因此，泡泡玛特会与许多知名IP合作，推出这些小角色并开发盲盒产品。

So Popmart will work with a lot of really famous IP to do these little characters and develop out a blind box.

所以在一个IP系列中，你可能会获得六七个不同角色的可能性。

So you may have, you know, six or seven potential characters within this IP that you could get.

显然，由香港设计师创作的Labubu小怪兽系列在今年夏天变得非常火爆。

Obviously, the monsters, the Lububu one from a a Hong Kong designer became very famous this summer.

这就是当时风靡一时的热潮。

And so that was the craze.

但泡泡玛特确实，我认为已经取得了长足发展。

But Poplar has really, I think, come along.

他们凭借盲盒模式找到了成功的公式。

You know, they had a good formula with the blind boxes.

他们在IP联名合作方面做得非常出色，并且恰逢经济转型的关键时期崛起。

They did really well with the types of IP collaborations that they've been able to do, and they came along at a very important moment in the economy.

所以当前的经济形势确实非常严峻。

So right now, times are really tough.

当前形势确实充满不确定性，而泡泡玛特就像一剂小小的多巴胺刺激。

Things are really uncertain, and Pop Mart is kind of that little dopamine hit.

它的价格不算特别昂贵，购买它能给你带来些许快乐。

It's not extremely expensive, and it gives you a little bit of joy to purchase this.

因此它恰好击中了这个甜蜜点。

And so it kind of hits that sweet spot.

我们经常使用'情绪消费'这个词。

Use the word emotional consumption a lot.

对于中国消费者来说，像泡泡玛特、奶茶这类产品，确实精准满足了情绪消费需求——那些能让你当下感觉更好的东西。

And so for Chinese consumers, things like, you know, Pop Mart, things like milk tea, they really hit those sweet spots of filling that emotional consumption need of something that's gonna just, you know, make you feel better in that moment.

正如你所说，无论你走进哪家泡泡玛特门店，无论是在上海还是中国的三四线城市。

And as you said, for Pop Mart, any location that you go into, it doesn't matter if you're in Shanghai or if you're in a third or fourth tier city in China.

店里总是挤满了人，他们摇晃着盲盒，试图猜出自己会抽到哪个角色。

The stores are always full of people going in and shaking the boxes, trying to figure out which character they're gonna get.

而且产品线非常丰富。

And it's a whole range.

你知道的，有小孩子会买

You know, you have young kids.

也有五六十岁的人排队购买

You have people in their fifties and sixties, you know, lining up to get these.

所以它确实覆盖了庞大的受众群体

So it it really hits a huge target audience.

再次回到这个体验式零售的概念，它非常有体验感

And, again, coming back to this, like, experiential retail element, it's very experiential.

对吧？

Right?

你走进商店摇晃盒子

You go into the store and you, you know, shake the box.

也许你会抽到

Maybe you come out.

然后和朋友交换玩偶

You trade your character with friends.