周日精选：如何运用肌肉——否则可能失去它们 | 如何成为更好的人

工艺体现在细微之处，如咖啡的冲泡方式，也体现在重要方面，如对您资金的精心管理。正因如此，160年来，瑞银始终将银行业务提升至工艺的高度。我们融合人类智慧与前沿科技，量身定制独特策略。这一切跨越24个时区，覆盖12个主要金融中心，而您始终是我们一切工作的核心。

Craft matters in small ways, like how a coffee is brewed, and in not so small ways, like how your money is cared for. Which is why for one hundred and sixty years, UBS has elevated banking to a craft. Tailoring unique strategies that combine human expertise with the latest technologies. All happening across 24 time zones and 12 key financial hubs. With you at the heart of it all.

瑞银。银行业务是我们的匠心所在。

UBS. Banking is our craft.

TED演讲日报的听众朋友们周日好，我是Elise Hu。今天我们将为您带来周日精选系列的另一期内容，这是我们为您精心挑选的TED音频联盟旗下另一档播客节目。您知道吗？人类从30岁起就开始流失骨骼和肌肉质量？在本期《如何成为更好的人类》中，主持人Chris Duffy与冲浪运动员、《肌肉：驱动我们的物质及其重要性》一书作者Bonnie Toi展开对话，共同探讨如何在年龄增长时增强力量及其相关课题。

Happy Sunday, TED Talks Daily listeners. I'm Elise Hu. Today, we're bringing you another one of our Sunday picks where we share an episode of another podcast from the TED Audio Collective handpicked by us for you. Did you know that we start losing bone and muscle mass as soon as the age of 30? Well, in this episode of how to be a better human, host Chris Duffy sits down with Bonnie Toi, surfer and author of the book on muscle, the Stuff That Moves Us and Why It Matters, to explore how to build strength as you age and everything that comes with it.

本期节目是《更好人类》特别企划的一部分，如今播客已不仅限于音频领域。Chris带着《如何成为更好的人类》进行外景拍摄，制作了一系列花絮视频，记录人们以独特方式探索成为更好人类的意义。如果您曾好奇Chris冲浪的样子，现在就有眼福了。前往ted.com观看Bonnie尝试教导Chris冲浪的过程，期间还穿插了关于举重、锻炼和运动益处的课程。想获取更多此类洞见，请在您常用的播客平台收听《如何成为更好的人类》。

This episode is part of something special that Better Human is doing as podcasts aren't just for the audio space anymore. Chris took how to be a better human on the road to film a series of bonus videos with people exploring what it means to be better humans in their own unique ways. And if you've ever wondered what it would look like to see Chris surf, you're in luck. Head to ted.com to watch as Bonnie tries to teach Chris how to surf while weaving in lessons on the benefits of weightlifting, exercise, and movement. If you wanna hear more insights like this, listen to how to be a better human wherever you get your podcasts.

了解更多TED音频联盟信息，请访问audiocollective.ted.com。

Learn more about the TED audio collective at audiocollective.ted.com.

您正在收听《如何成为更好的人类》，我是主持人Chris Duffy。您即将收听的这期节目非常特别，因为我们亲自外出拜访了今天的嘉宾Bani Tsui。她是《论肌肉》和《我们为何游泳》的作者，我与她探讨了运动、力量以及肌肉以惊人方式影响我们生活各个层面的现象。但我们的交流不止于此。

You're listening to How to Be a Better Human. I'm your host, Chris Duffy. This episode that you're about to hear is a really special one because we went out in person to meet with today's guest, Bani Tsui. She's the author of the books On Muscle and Why We Swim, And I got to talk to her about exercise and strength and the surprising ways that muscles affect all aspects of our lives. But I didn't just talk to her.

我和她一起冲浪，完成了一次令人汗颜的锻炼，并将整个过程拍摄成短片和视频系列。我对最终成果感到无比欣喜，认为它既有趣又充满新意，与我们以往制作的任何内容都截然不同。您现在就可以在Ted的YouTube频道观看这个视频系列，敬请关注。

I went surfing with her and I did a humiliating workout and we filmed the whole thing for a short film and video series that we made. I'm genuinely so thrilled with how it turned out. I think it is so fun and so funny and really different than anything else we've made. You can watch that video series now on Ted's YouTube channel. So please check that out.

但首先，请收听本期节目。有请邦妮。要知道，如果

But first, listen to this episode. Here's Bonnie. You know, if

你在街上随机拦住100个人问他们：提到肌肉这个词你会想到什么？我想人们通常会联想到某种特定的体型和特定类型的人才能拥有那样的身材。往往是在健身房锻炼的人、健美运动员，或是像阿诺德·施瓦辛格那样的人。对吧？而通过这几年对肌肉的研究，我发现它的意义远比这深刻得多。

you stopped a 100 people on the street and asked them, what do you think of when you think of the word muscle? I think there is a very specific kind of body stereotypically and a very particular kind of person who gets to have that body. And oftentimes, it's someone who's in the gym, someone who's a bodybuilder, someone who looks like Arnold Schwarzenegger. Right? And I think that what I learned from the last several years of of researching on muscle is that it goes so much deeper than that.

力量这个概念也充满了隐喻性。在写这本书的过程中，我不禁开始把肌肉视为一种哲学——它具备所有这些具象化的特质。比如力量、形态、运动能力，正是这些特质推动着我们前进，还有柔韧性和耐力。这些不仅是肌肉的特性，更是我们追求的人格品质。

And that strength is something that also is very metaphorical. And I couldn't help but over the course of writing this book, start to think of muscle as a philosophy where there are all these characteristics of muscle that the tangible stuff. Right? So strength and form and, you know, action that it is the stuff that actually moves us and flexibility and endurance. And these are not just qualities of muscle, but they are qualities that we strive for in personhood.

我觉得这个认知非常动人，也极具深意。当我们不再把身体仅仅视为在地球上短暂栖居的躯壳，而是以某种方式思考它时，就能升华我们想在世间成为的样子。肌肉的特性在于它只会越练越强——只有通过施压、推动和挑战才能增强肌肉。

And I think that's very moving. That's very profound. And so to kind of, like, think about the body as not just this vehicle we occupy for a certain period of time on Earth, but is something that if we think about it in a certain way, it elevates, like, who we wanna be in the world. Muscle is something that you can only get stronger. You can only strengthen a muscle by stressing it, by pushing it, by challenging it.

我想这个道理我们都懂。我们可以把生活视为不断施加压力、不断抛出挑战的过程。这确实是绝妙的人生哲理。

And that's something that I think we all understand. We can look at life as something that always is stressing us, is always throwing these challenges at us. I know it's just a really good life lesson.

好的，我们稍事休息，片刻之后将继续探讨更多人生哲理。

Okay. We're gonna take a quick break, but we will be back with more life lessons in just a moment.

工艺体现在细微之处，比如咖啡的冲泡方式；也体现在重要领域，比如对您财富的精心打理。正因如此，160年来瑞银集团始终将银行业务升华为一门工艺。我们融合人类智慧与前沿科技，量身定制独特策略。这一切跨越24个时区和12个主要金融中心展开，而您始终是我们服务的核心。瑞银集团，以银行业务为我们的工艺。

Craft matters in small ways, like how a coffee is brewed, and in not so small ways, like how your money is cared for. Which is why for one hundred and sixty years, UBS has elevated banking to a craft. Tailoring unique strategies that combine human expertise with the latest technologies. All happening across 24 time zones and 12 key financial hubs with you at the heart of it all. UBS, banking is our craft.

我们正在与Bonnie Tsui探讨肌肉、能力以及强壮意味着什么。

We're talking muscles, capability, and what it means to be strong with Bonnie Tsui.

你好，我是Bonnie Tsui。我是一名记者，也是关于肌肉和游泳原因的书籍作者，我写了很多关于身体、运动以及人类在世界中的内容。

Hi. My name is Bonnie Tsui. I'm a journalist and author of the books on muscle and why we swim, and I write a lot about the body and movement and humans in the world.

那么，Bonnie，你写了关于肌肉的书。写这本书教会了你什么关于如何真正增强肌肉的方法？

So, Bonnie, you wrote the book on muscle. What did writing a book about muscles teach you about how to actually make your muscles stronger?

当你问这个问题时，我感到身体紧绷，我想这表明我已经真正内化了这个教训：我们都需要使用肌肉并举起重物。我知道这听起来令人畏惧，因为很多人从未被告知这一点。但过去几年，甚至最近一年半，力量训练和举重已经发生了翻天覆地的变化，这些曾经主要是男性的领域，特定类型的身体，现在医疗体系、你的医生会告诉你、你的母亲和祖母，这是她们必须做的事情。我认为这非常了不起，也扩展了我们所有人对肌肉的理解。对吧？

I felt my body tensing as you asked that question, which I think indicates that I've really internalized this lesson of we all need to be using our muscles and lifting heavy. I know that is an intimidating thing to hear, because so much of the population has not been told that. But I think what has been a sea change over the last several years, even really, like, the last, like, year and a half is that the kind of strength training and weight lifting that has long been historically, like, this province of men and, again, like, these bodies that are particular kinds of bodies, that is something that the medical establishment, your doctor, will be telling you and your mom and your grandmother is that is something that they had to be doing. And I think that is incredible and also something that expands the idea of muscle for all of us. Right?

所以我认为理解肌肉不仅仅是为了外表，拥有一个健美的身体是一回事。但这一切都源于我从父亲那里学到的，他不仅是一位艺术家，还是一位武术家。这在我成长过程中非常重要，让我从小就明白身体的美丽在于它能做什么。对吧？所以增强肌肉、去健身房举重，不是为了看起来好看。

So I think understanding that muscle is not just for looks, like having a beautiful muscular body is one thing. But I think this all goes back to what I learned from growing up having the dad I had who was not just an artist, but a martial artist. I think this was so integral to my growing up in getting me to understand from a very early age that the body is beautiful because of what it can do. Right? And so to strengthen your muscles, to go to a gym to, like, lift heavy, to go you know, it is not about looking good.

当然，我们都想看起来好看。对吧？这有助于强化我们投射出的自我形象，我们认为这是正确的形象，或者我是谁，或者我在世界上的表现，我的身份。但如果你明白你正在锻炼的这些肌肉帮助你过上更好的生活、更长的生活、更健康的生活，有助于你的认知健康，就像你的肌肉一直在与你的大脑交流，进行着你听不到的对话。我认为这真的很酷。

Although, of course, we all wanna look good. Right? Like, it helps us to reinforce that we are projecting an image of ourselves that we think is, like, the right image or, like, who I am or what the presentation of myself in the world, my identity. But if you understand that these muscles that you're building are helping you to live a better life, a longer life, a healthier life, one that helps your cognitive health, like your muscles are always talking to your brain and having conversations that you don't hear. I think that's really cool.

我学到的一点是，肌肉不仅仅是为了机械地移动你，它们还是一种内分泌组织。所以它们一直在交流。它们非常健谈。它们释放这些信号分子，遍布你的全身，与所有不同的部分交流，包括你的大脑，告诉你的大脑做一些有益的事情。然后你的大脑说，好的。

One thing that I learned was that muscles are not just for, like, moving you around mechanically, but they are an endocrine tissue. And so they're always talking. They're super chatty. They are releasing these signaling molecules that travel all around your body to talk to all these different parts of it, including your brain, and are telling your brain to do certain beneficial things. And then your brain says, okay.

然后安德开始做这些事。接着就会发生这样美妙的对话和流动，就像一股美妙的分子流环绕你的身体，让你感觉良好。

Then And starts doing them. And then there's this, like, beautiful conversation that's happening and that flow, like, this beautiful wash of, like, molecules all around your body to make you feel good.

你说几乎每个人都这样，有这种情况

You said that pretty much everyone like, there's this

是啊。

Yeah.

重大变化是现在几乎每个人都应该进行大重量训练。所以我想问你具体怎么做以及为什么？就我个人而言不太喜欢...对我来说现在几乎从不举重。

Big change that now pretty much everyone should be lifting heavy. So I want to ask you how and why? I don't personally like right just for me. Yeah, right now. I almost never lift weights.

这确实不是我常做的事。而且如果我妈妈在举重的话，我会非常震惊。那么我们应该怎么做呢？

That's just not really a thing that I do. Right. And I would be shocked to learn if my mom was lifting weights. Right. So what should we be doing?

然后我们为什么要这样做？这方面到底发生了什么实质性的变化？

And then why should we be doing that? What is the thing that has actually changed about that?

我们大多数人都明白随着年龄增长会流失骨量对吧？就像很多人都听说过骨质疏松症，他们会想'哦，我得强健骨骼'。随着年龄增长，会出现与年龄相关的骨质流失，这叫骨质减少。肌肉也会发生同样的情况。

Most of us understand that as we get older, we lose bone mass. Right? And so like, most people have heard of osteoporosis, and they're like, oh, you know, I gotta strengthen my bones. And as I get older, you know, there's like an age related, loss of bone, and that's called osteopenia. Same thing happens with muscles.

很少有人知道，到了三十岁——抱歉各位——你会开始流失肌肉，这很正常。对吧？这就是与年龄相关的肌肉流失现象，无论你是否是运动员，对所有人来说都如此。这意味着在三十多岁时，你就需要开始思考：你希望自己在四五十岁、六七十岁乃至更老时成为什么样的人，具备哪些能力。但我觉得很多人不会这样想。

And less people are familiar with the fact that in your thirties, sorry, everyone, you start losing muscle, and it's normal. Right? So it's like age related muscle mass that happens, like, whether or not you're an athlete or it is normal for everyone. And so what that really means is that in your thirties, you need to start thinking about who you wanna be and what you wanna be capable of doing in your forties, fifties, sixties, seventies, and beyond. And I think a lot of people don't think that way.

但我觉得如果你明白'举重'真正的含义就是'很吃力'——感觉起来很吃力。所以你只需要举起对你而言有挑战的重量。我常告诉别人，这意味着你只需重复8到10次就可以结束训练。之后你再回来，用能挑战身体各个部位的方式锻炼它们。

But I think if you understand that lifting heavy just really means, like, it's hard. It feels hard. And so you lift a weight that is challenging for you. And then I like to tell people that that means only means that you have to lift it, like, eight to 10 times, and then you're out of there. And then you come back and you're, like, to work all the different parts of your body in ways that will challenge them.

当某个重量变得轻松时，你就可以进阶到更重的。重点在于：所有类型的运动都很重要。所有让你感到快乐的锻炼方式都值得尝试。而加入举重这类抗阻训练，就像去健身房一样简单。你可以和朋友一起完成。

And then when that weight gets lighter and easier, then you kind of move on to the next one. And I think the point is, like, all kinds of movement is important. All kinds of exercise, the stuff that really brings you joy. And adding, folding in, like, the weight lifting is, resistance training that you can do that, like, by going to the gym. You can do that with friends.

从心理层面来说，你确实需要一点启动能量才能开始。不过大多数健身房都会提供一节免费的私教体验课，你只需要对教练坦诚相告：'我生活中想做却做不到的事是什么？'

You can do that by, like, like, psychologically. You do need a little bit of activation energy to start. Right? So but that most gyms, like, give you, like, a free session with a trainer, and you just be, like, honest with, like, that person. What do I wanna be doing with my life that I can't do?

我想能够到高架子上的罐头，想爬楼梯时不再气喘吁吁，想能抱起我的孙辈们。就是这些小事——当然也可能你想完成铁人三项，

I wanna be able to get that can off the high shelf. I wanna be able to go up the stairs without feeling this way. I want to be able to, like, pick up my grandkids when I see them. It's, like, small things like that. It doesn't have to be that, But it could be that you, like, wanna do an Ironman.

或者想在晚年还能游泳。但所有这些都需要肌肉支撑，而人们往往没意识到这点。

You wanna do, you wanna swim to, like, this, like, late age in your life. But that all of that is supported by your muscles in a way that I think people don't realize.

其实观众经常问我：'这个节目让你改变了什么生活习惯？'我通常回答没什么改变。但这一期可能会让我有所行动。

Actually, a thing that people ask me all the time about this show is, what have you actually changed in your life from episodes? And my often my answer is like, not much. This might be one where I do something different.

嗯。

Yeah.

我该怎么办？然后该怎么跟我妈说？比如，嘿。对。你和我都要开始举重了。

What should I do? And then what should I tell my mom? Like, hey. Yes. You and I are both gonna start lifting weights.

嗯。

Yeah.

这到底是什么意思？

What actually does that mean?

你可能有些朋友。我觉得如果你开始四处打听，会发现现在很多人已经把举重融入生活，他们正默默坚持着。然后他们会告诉你：我开始举重了，我开始力量训练了，我开始练力量举了——就是那三个经典动作：硬拉、卧推和深蹲。

You've probably got friends. And I think that if you start asking around, you will find that many people now have folded weightlifting into their lives in ways that, they're kind of quietly doing it. And then they'll tell you, I started weightlifting. I started weight training. I started power lifting, like, which is like these three very specific movements that are kind of classic, you know, dead lift, bench press, and squat.

有些你没想到会练这个的人也在练，他们感觉棒极了。他们感到强壮有力，每天都能看到渐进的变化。然后突然之间，几周、几个月、几年过去，你已经蜕变了。我觉得肌肉最鼓舞人心的地方在于，它是人体适应性最强的组织之一。这种力量令人振奋。

And people you may not have thought would be doing this are doing it, and they feel amazing. They feel strong and capable, and they see incremental changes like day to day. And then, like, suddenly it's like weeks and months and years, and you you've changed. And I think the thing with muscle that's so inspiring is that it is one of the most adaptable tissues in the body. That is empowering.

这很深刻。从你醒来到入睡的每一秒，肌肉都在对环境变化做出反应，而你也在回应身体的需求。

That is profound. And it is always changing from the moment you wake up to the the second you go to bed that it is responding to changes in the environment, and you are responding to, like, what it is need is needed of you.

我得说我已年近四十，最明显的变化就是身体发生了转变——比如这里多了一点赘肉，衬衫穿着感觉不一样了。这些变化虽然没给我带来太多困扰，但也不算什么可喜的改变。我并不会夸赞身体说‘干得好’。我喜欢你现在稍微有点驼背的样子。这其实在暗示我，每天可以做些小改变，而这些改变未必是为了外观上的变化。

I will say that I'm in my late thirties, and the number one change that I've noticed is that, like, my body has shifted in ways where I'm like, oh, like there's like a little more stuff here and like my shirt fits differently. And they're like not causing me a lot of distress, but they're not like welcome changes either. I'm not like, great work, body. I love that you like slumped over a little bit more. And this is kind of telling me like I could do a little bit every day and it wouldn't be necessarily about like aesthetic changes.

没错。这些改变是为了让我余生都能保持身体机能。

Yeah. It would be about functional changes for the rest of my life.

完全正确。我想补充一点，当你进行举重训练时，那些日积月累的微小变化最终会带来巨大改变。这是实实在在的，是你每天都能在身体上感受到的物理变化。

Exactly. And one thing I'll sort of fold into is that, like, when you do something like weight training, and it is like these small daily incremental changes that add up to big changes. That's something that is tangible. That is like a physical thing you feel in your body every day.

你的书里有段内容特别打动我。你提到举重能重塑自我认知——我们通过改变肌肉的方式来改变看待自己的方式。

There's something that I was so moved by in your book. You talked about how along the same lines, you talked about how weightlifting can reframe your self perception. We can change the way we think about ourselves by the way we change our muscles.

这不仅仅是关于自我展示或外表。关键在于你能用这些肌肉做什么，你的身体经过改造后能实现什么。这究竟意味着什么？

It's not just about, like, self presentation. It's not just about how you look. It is about what you can do with those muscles and what your body can now do that you've changed. Like, what does that actually mean?

但你在书中作为研究之旅，去拜访了地球上最强壮的人对吧？那些真正举起过人类极限重量，不断突破体能边界的强者。你说力量训练群体特别激励你，原因出人意料——因为这不仅仅是‘我能举起600磅的巨石吗’这么简单。

But you, in the book, as a research trip, went and visited with the strongest people on the planet Right. Who are quite literally, like, have lifted the heaviest weights imaginable, pushing the boundaries of what humans can actually lift. You talk about how the strength community is actually really inspiring to you because in ways that are surprising. Because it's not just about, can I lift a 600 pound rock? Right.

所以我很想听你朗读这段话。

So I'd love to have you, read this quote.

但力量训练群体对人体永不满足的好奇心，让我出奇地感动。了解自己的力量。我逐渐明白这些话的含义不是非此即彼的二元论断，而是一个持续的发现过程。肌肉很重要。它们让我们以可见的方式见证自己的能力。

But the strength community's insatiable curiosity about the human body is something I find surprisingly moving. To know one's own strength. I've come to understand the meaning of these words not as a binary statement, and I do or and I don't, but as an ongoing process of discovery. Muscles matter. They allow us in an observable way to see what we can do.

虽然最初你可能不知道自己能做什么，但你体内蕴藏着巨大的潜力，只待合适的时机被激发出来。

Though you may not initially know what you're capable of, you have vast reservoirs of potential waiting to be tapped for just the right moment to be revealed.

首先，我认为这种表述方式既美好又鼓舞人心。这让我不禁好奇，我们该如何了解自己的真正潜力？

So first of all, I think that's such a beautiful and inspiring way of framing it. And it makes me curious, like, how do we know our true potential?

我认为只有尝试过才会知道。而这正是尝试的美妙与可怕之处。力量的展示，尤其是公开的力量展示，自人类有历史记载以来就存在。对吧？这意味着什么？

I think that we don't know until we try. And I think that's both the beauty and the terror of trying. Physical demonstrations of strength, and particularly public demonstrations of that, have been something that we have done as human beings for as long as we have history. Right? And what does that mean?

我试着从史前石器时代的原始角度思考这个问题，这就像是对领导能力的原始展示

I kind of think about this, like, from a, you know, sort of prehistoric, primeval stone age kind of way where it's like it's like a primitive demonstration of leadership skills

嗯哼。

Uh-huh.

也就是我们现在所说的领导能力——在没有其他衡量标准时。你如何证明我能带领这艘渔船出海两周，为村庄带回食物。嗯。或者证明我能率领军队为你征战征服那片土地。而如今，我们仍保留着这种痕迹。

Of what we would call leadership skills now, which is absent other metrics. How do you demonstrate that you I'm capable of leading this fishing vessel out to sea for, you know, two weeks so I can feed my village. Mhmm. Or I am capable of leading our forces into war to conquer that land for you. But now, we still have remnants of that.

比如，展示身体力量总能让我们惊叹，我们至今仍对此有所反应。那么，这如今意味着什么？当你看到运动员完成不可思议的壮举时，这依然具有文化价值。我的意思是，我们观看这些表演，因为亲眼见证具有特殊意义。因为我们的身体会相互对话。

Like, to physically demonstrate strength is something that wows us all, and we still respond to it. And so, like, what does that mean these days? Like, there is a cultural currency still when you see an athlete doing something incredible. Like, we I mean, we watch these things because to see them in person means something. Because our bodies talk to each other.

我们的身体在他人面前完成某些动作时传递着信息，而这正是肌肉赋予我们的能力。

Our bodies doing things in front of other people says something, and that's what our muscles are allowing us to do.

在书的结尾部分，你提到体力付出在人类社会中仍具意义。为他人承受身体痛苦，用身体证明你曾全力以赴，这具有价值。这是展现承诺、赢得交换的基本方式。我认为确实如此，对吧？

Towards the end of the book, you say physical effort still means something in human society. To suffer physically for someone, to use your body to show that you've tried hard, it has value. It's an essential way to demonstrate commitment, to earn the exchange. And I think that's true. Right?

我们会想，比如我愿意为你走遍地球，愿意扑向手榴弹，愿意挡子弹，对吧？身体行为在人际关系中很重要，但对我们自我认知同样重要。

We think about like, you know, I would walk across the planet for you. I would jump on a grenade. I would take a bullet, right? Like the physical act matters in human relationships. But it also matters in our ideas of ourselves.

原以为做不到的事最终做到了。这些力量竞赛也很有趣，因为它们常出人意料。既有趣，又揭示了我们对肌肉、地位和力量的认知方式。

Didn't think I could do that and then I could. These strength competitions, I think there's something really funny about them too because they often can surprise us. It's funny, but there's also something revealing about the way that we think about muscle and status and strength.

当预期被颠覆时我觉得很棒，但有些人会感到不适。这引出了关于简·托德的故事——她曾是世界上最强的女性，以及我们如何看待女性在力量谱系中的位置。如果力量长期属于男性气概的领域，那么当女性能举起象征男子气概的石头时意味着什么？

When the expectation is upended that I think it's wonderful, but some people feel very uncomfortable with it. You know? And I think that leads into the story with Jan Todd, who was at one point the strongest woman in the world, and how we think about women in this continuum of strength. Right? So, like, if strength has been long the province of men and masculinity, like, what does it mean when a woman can pick up manhood stones?

对吧？这些力量之石，她是首位举起被称为'迪尼石'的苏格兰力量石的人。这些石头重733磅。要知道在过去，举起苏格兰及其他文化中这类特定巨石意味着你不再是男孩，而成为了男人。

Right? So, like, these stones of strength, she was the first person to lift these Scottish stones of strength known as the Dinnie Stones. They weigh 733 pounds. You know, back in the day, lifting these big heavy rocks, these particular big heavy rocks in Scotland and in other cultures, like, meant that you were no longer a boy. You're now a man.

太好了。那么如果一个女性能够举起它们，这是否就意味着现在这个壮举的意义和重要性被抹去了呢？我认为有些人因为这些确实是文化象征，而且长期以来它们承载着特定意义，当这种意义被打破时，我们必须重新调整自己的认知，问问自己：肌肉意味着什么？在我们当前的社会文化中，力量究竟意味着什么？

Yay. And so if a woman can pick them up, does that just, like, erase the meaning and the significance of that feat now? And so I think some people because these are cultural touchstones, literally, and because they have long held the significance when that's disrupted, we have to reorient ourselves to that and to ask ourselves, like, what do muscles mean? What does strength mean in this society, in our culture now?

但我觉得你还指出了一个非常有趣的反面观点：如果力量和肌肉是我们理解真实潜能、自身强度以及实际可能远超预期的方式，那么看到像简·托德这样的女性举起被认为不可能被女性举起的重量时——

But I think you also point out a really interesting flip side of that, which is if strength and muscle are ways of understanding our true potential, and how strong we are, and how it actually can be much greater than we would have expected, it's also true that then seeing someone like Jan Todd lift these weights that was thought to be impossible for a woman

没错。

Right.

这会改变其他女孩、女性或原本认为自己做不到的人的观念——正是如此。她们也会开始思考自己的潜力。

It then changes the way that other girls or women or people who wouldn't have seen themselves as able to do that Exactly. That they think about their own potential too.

是的。我认为这正体现了看到与自己相似的人实现你渴望或从未想象能达成之事的重要性。同时它也极具教育意义——让我们明白有时正是那些微小的日常积累最终引发重大改变。如今我们甚至有了'阿诺德强壮女性'比赛，我认为这给世界上了深刻的一课：有些成长可能长期看不见成效——

Yeah. And I think that's therein lies the importance of seeing someone who looks like you doing something that you wanna do, or that you never imagined you could do. And then it's also so instructive for us to see that sometimes it is like small daily incremental changes that then lead to bigger changes. And now we are in a place where, you know, there is an Arnold Strong Woman contest. And I think that's also a very profound lesson for how to be in the world, that sometimes you don't see those gains for a long time.

但这并不意味着你没有在改变。

But that doesn't mean that you're not changing.

我想进一步探讨'男性天生比女性强壮'这个观念。你提到很多强壮女性比赛证明，我们这种'男性比女性强壮'的认知（而非'有些人比其他人强壮'）实际上基于潜力和激励。如果只鼓励特定群体进行举重训练，那么你永远无法知道其他群体究竟能举起多重的重量。

I wanna talk a little bit more about this idea that men are definitely naturally stronger than women. And that you talk about how so much of the strong women competitions prove that like, the idea that we have about that, that it's men are stronger than women rather than some people are stronger than other people is really based on a potential and an encouragement. Like, if you only encourage a certain group of people to lift heavy weights Right. Then you're not gonna know how heavy a weight another group of people could be.

我认为，在很大程度上，我们都知道青春期尤其是男性青春期会带来肌肉增长，而且平均而言，男性的骨骼生长总体上会使他们作为一个类别在体型、身高和体力上超过女性，这是生物变化的结果。但这并不意味着没有女性比某些男性更强壮等等。有些人就是比其他人更强壮，因为个体差异很大。因此，仅凭这一生物学事实并不意味着女性不能做某些事。我觉得我们某种程度上陷入了思维定式——当你用类别化思维看待人群时，就会丧失所有细微差别和个体性，进而开始对某个群体说'你们做不到'或'这不适合你们'。

I think that, you know, for the for the most part, and I think we all kind of understand this to some extent that, you know, muscles that come with puberty and particularly male puberty, and then also, like, just bone growth that on average, in aggregate, like, men are, as a category, are bigger, taller, stronger physically than women because of these changes that happen biologically. But that doesn't mean that there aren't some women who are stronger than some men and all that. Some people are stronger than that because there is a huge variation in that. And so just because of that biological fact doesn't mean that women can't do those things. And I think that that's something that we've gotten kind of a little bit stuck on, which is you if you think categorically about people, you lose all of the nuance and individuality, and you then start to say to a group of people, you can't do that, or this isn't for you.

有些人就是比其他人更强壮，事实如此，未必与性别相关。我认为这正是许多关于'谁有资格被称为强壮'的限制性观念的根源所在。

Some people are stronger than other people because that is what it is. It's not necessarily men or women. And so I think that's where much of the kind of limiting factors on who gets to be strong are often originating.

但这也让我想到——请允许我稍微政治化一点——我们正处在一个对性别边界进行严格管控的时代。其中一种管控方式就是：如果你是女性，你注定在某些方面不够强壮，你的外形必须符合某种标准；而男性则必须更强壮，必须拥有某些特质。这甚至还没涉及跨性别或非二元性别群体——我们已经看到这种现象发生在运动员身上，他们接受性别检测，或是质疑那些过于成功的女性运动员的成就，因为'太成功就不够女性化'。

But it also strikes me that, you know, to get political for a moment here, we're at a moment where there's a lot of policing of the boundaries of gender. And one of those ways that it's policed is like, if you are a woman, you will certainly not be strong in these ways. You will not look like this. And if you are a man, you will be stronger, and you will have these feelings, and you will do this thing. That's not even to say of people who are trans or non binary, but we've already seen this happen with athletes where they're doing sex testing or they're questioning accomplishments of women who are extremely successful because it's too successful, it's not feminine enough.

你在这本书中做的研究实际上很好地瓦解了那些'人应该长成某种固定模样——女性该怎样、男性该怎样——每个性别只有一种标准形态'的论调。

A lot of the research that you did in this book actually, it really undermines, in a good way, it undermines these arguments about, like, there is one way that a person should look, and that that is a woman, and that is a man, and that there's only one type of each thing.

很明显，社会对男性身体的接受度乃至理想标准，其范围总是比女性更宽泛。女性总被要求必须符合更狭窄的审美范畴——什么是美，什么是女性特质，什么算有吸引力。一旦超出这个框架，就会听到'肌肉太发达'这种评价——这个说法一直让我很在意，我不断自问：这到底是什么意思？

I think it's very clear that what's considered acceptable and in fact attractive and like ideal in terms of the body for a man has always been bigger, always been a larger range than what has been afforded to women. Right? Like, women have much narrower have been told that they have to fit in a much narrower category of what's beautiful, what's feminine, what's considered attractive. And then also, like, if you step outside of that, like, that's where the phrase too muscular to me really, like, it kept catching on my ear. And I kept asking myself, like, well, what does that really mean?

当你说某人'肌肉太发达'时，实际在表达什么？这通常用来形容'不合规矩'的女性运动员或女性身体（我对此要打引号），或者说'不正常'。为什么会这样？如果你观察一些案例，比如塞雷娜·威廉姆斯在网球场上所向披靡、成为顶尖选手时，就有人批评她'肌肉太发达'。

Like, what are you saying when you say someone is too muscular? Oftentimes, it's used to describe a female athlete or a female body that doesn't belong, and I put that in air quotes, or is wrong. And why is that? And if you kind of, like, look at some of the instances in which this happened like Serena Williams, when she was playing tennis and dominating and winning and being, you know, basically an extraordinary tennis player. She was told that her body was too muscular.

她接受过许多相关采访，反问说：为什么我要被这样评价？然后可能下周又有人说她'太性感、太挑逗'。这些评价混杂了种族、性别因素，还涉及'谁有资格参与白人主导的运动（比如网球）'这种议题。

She had given lots of interviews about this, and she's like, well, why is that? I mean, why am I told that my body is to this? And then, like, the next week that it's too sexy, too racy. It's mushing up all of these ideas of, like, race and gender. And also, like, who belongs in a, like, a white dominated sport, like tennis.

长久以来，网球运动似乎只属于特定体型和特定人群。当出现不符合传统标准的选手时，他们常被指责为异类。当然，她后来被视为改变这项运动的天才，但当时却被看作破坏者。我们的文化不喜欢破坏，所以面对这种情况时，我们常常不知所措。

For the longest time, it was, like, these particular bodies and these particular people who are playing tennis. I think oftentimes when someone comes along and doesn't fit what has been before, they are told they're to something. Of course, she is seen as this extraordinary talent who, like, transformed the sport, but at the time, like, a disruption. We don't like disruption in in our culture. And so when that happens, sometimes we don't know what to do with it.

就像米斯蒂·科普兰，这位杰出的黑人芭蕾舞先驱者，她总被质疑'为什么说我肌肉太发达？'这本质上是在说'因为我是黑人，我的身体不属于这个白人主导的芭蕾世界'。当我们层层剖析这些言论，就会发现这些论点根本站不住脚。

And or like with Misty Copeland, like, being, you know, this incredible pioneer black ballet dancer. She was often told she's like, why am I being told that my, you know, my body is too muscular? Again, it's like, is it like this is I'm being told this because I am too black. I am a body that doesn't belong in this white dominated space of ballet. And I think just to kind of, like, peel back some of the layers on this and kind of, like, do a close read of, like, what this is actually saying, you start to understand, like, these arguments fall away.

这其实与改变社会规范有关。

And it has to do with, like, changing norms.

你在书中提到许多职业运动员，尤其是顶级运动员和奥运选手。许多女性运动员都谈到她们拥有'竞技身体'和'外貌身体'的双重标准，因为最佳运动表现与世俗审美之间存在着明显鸿沟。

You, in the book, talk about many of the professional athletes, like highest level athletes, Olympians. For many of the the female athletes, they talk about having, like, a performance body and then an appearance body because there is this clear gap between, like, what is best for what they do Right. And what is best for living in a world that doesn't necessarily want them to look like that.

是啊。生活在这个总在告诉你'怎样才算美'的世界里，这些观念甚至不需要明说，人们就会潜移默化地接受。媒体塑造的女性完美形象让我震惊——那些NCAA女运动员的研究显示，这些在不同项目表现出色的女性，本应对赛场上强健的体魄感到自豪。

Yeah. Living in a world in which you're being told to look a certain way, and this is acceptable. And you don't even it's not even that you have to be told that, you just absorb it. You know from these images that you see in media that this is the body that is considered beautiful for a woman. I was so struck by these research studies for these, you know, NCAA athletes, like, across many sports, these, women who were excelling and and talking about how proud they felt about their strong muscular bodies on the playing field, like performing, like their bodies allowing them to do these amazing things.

这又回到了形式与功能的关系。她们的身体形态让她们能在热爱的运动中发挥卓越功能。但问到社交场合的外表时，她们会说'牛仔裤不合身'、'衬衫穿着奇怪'，还要化浓妆、做发型、穿裙装来证明自己的女性气质。

And and again, this goes back to, like, form and function. The form that their bodies were taking allowed them to perform this amazing function in a sport that they love and wanted to do. And yet, ask them questions about the appearance side of things, like, you know, in social settings, like, you know, going clothing shop. They're just like, my jeans fit weird or these shirts hang odd on me. And I put on a lot of makeup so I can appear feminine in my hair a certain way and I wear skirts and dresses because I want everyone to know that I am, like, feminine and pretty and all this stuff.

最让我震惊的是，这些女孩不得不进行这种割裂——她们无法在外貌层面为自己的身体感到骄傲。

And the fact that these girls have to perform this calculation that they can't be proud of their bodies in the in the appearance context to me was really, it was very eye opening.

我觉得这是一个非常生动的例子，说明你应该能够成为最实用、最充实的自己，而不必担心如何适应那些对你不利的叙事框架。

I feel like this is such a vivid example of like, you should just be able to be the most functional and most fulfilling version of yourself without having to worry about where that fits into a narrative that doesn't serve you.

没错。作为一名女运动员，你不该在离开足球场后，感觉必须把自己硬塞进另一个角色才能在那个世界、那种环境中生存。我想，如果你能走下球场、离开泳池时依然感觉自己是同一个人——既美丽又女性化且充满力量，所有这些特质和谐共存，那样的世界才会更美好。

Right. That you shouldn't be coming off the soccer pitch, say, as a female athlete, and then feel like you have to shoehorn yourself into some other self to operate in that world, in that context. Those worlds, I think, wouldn't be amazing if you could walk off court, you know, walk off pitch, like, get out of the water, and just feel like I'm the same person, and I am gorgeous and feminine and powerful, and all of those things go together.

你最近写了一篇文章，讲述自己身体的经历，以及你开始感受到社会对宽厚强壮肩膀的逐渐接纳。

You wrote an article recently about your own experience with your own body and feeling like how there was starting to be some more acceptance of, like, having broader or stronger shoulders.

没错。宽肩膀正流行呢，但我认为它们从未过时。这是给《Elle》杂志写的文章，解构流行文化现象和讨论趋势确实很有趣。但事实上，我看到的是更长时间跨度里的演变。

Right. Big shoulders are in. I argue that they never were out. You know, this was an article for Elle magazine, and it was really interesting to unpack some of the pop culture stuff and talk about trends. But really, I see this across the arc of a much longer timeline.

对吧？如今女性在身材形象和外在呈现方面获得了更广泛的接纳。但这还不够，它会像我们所见的那样收缩扩张——我是说，这种循环周而复始。可能按季节更替，但总体趋势是朝着更包容的方向发展。

Right? Where there is a much more expanded acceptability for women in terms of body image and body presentation. But it is not big enough yet, and it will contract and expand as we see, like, real I mean, the cycle of this happens. It can happen seasonally, but we are moving in the general direction of that expansiveness.

稍后我们将继续与邦妮的对话。欢迎回来。我们一直在讨论肌肉和力量训练如何塑造你的潜力与自我认知。现在很适合多聊聊你父亲，以及他如何改变你对自身潜力的理解，还有肌肉在其中扮演的角色。对于不熟悉你著作的听众，你父亲是位杰出的插画师、动画师，同时也是与李小龙一起习武的武术家。

We're gonna be back with more from Bonnie in just a moment. And we are back. So we've been talking about the way that muscle and that training strength can shape your potential and your understanding of yourself. I think this is a natural time to talk to you a little bit more about your dad and the way that your dad changed your understanding of your own potential and the way that muscle played into that. So for people who aren't familiar, who haven't already read your book, your dad was an incredible illustrator, animator, but he was also a martial artist who trained with Bruce Lee.

他...他和李小龙上的是同一所高中。

He he went to the same high school as Bruce Lee Okay.

在香港。曾与李小龙一起接受学术训练。当然，我就是这个意思。

In Hong Kong. Trained academically with Bruce Lee. Of course, that's what I meant.

我很喜欢这个故事，它有点像

I love how the story is kind of like

他接受过学术训练。他是李小龙。他就是李小龙。有一次他见到了李小龙。你父亲，这对他成长非常重要。

He trained academically. He's Bruce Lee. He's Bruce Lee. One time he saw Bruce Lee. Your dad, it was very important to him growing up.

你有个兄弟。是的。不仅是你兄弟，还有你。重要的是你们俩都要强壮，既要锻炼身体也要注重心智发展。

You have a brother. Yes. And not just your brother, but you. It was really important that both of you Yeah. Were strong and took care of your bodies as much as you took care of your mind.

没错。我成长过程中他是个职业艺术家，自由职业者。他从事商业艺术，从电影海报到书籍封面都做，比如那些自选冒险故事书，还有广告，甚至奥运会海报。他还练习多种武术，包括空手道黑带和跆拳道。他崇尚身体锻炼的生活方式，从我们蹒跚学步时就把这些理念灌输给我们。

Yeah. He was a professional artist when I was growing up, and he did a lot of he was a freelance artist. He was a commercial artist, and so he did everything from movie posters to book covers, the choose your own adventure books, and, you know, advertisements and, like, the posters for the Olympics. And and he also was practiced many martial arts, including he had a black belt in karate, and he did taekwondo. And, he just enjoyed a life of the body and exercise and had a practice that he incorporated us from when we were toddlers.

真的，要知道他在香港长大的那个年代，运动并不流行。但他父亲很特别，会带他潜水捕鱼、游泳，强调这些很重要。所以我小时候，他总让我们在车库和他一起练武，晚上十点吃完晚饭还要跑步——去一英里外儿科医生办公室的停车场。深更半夜我们跟在他后面跑，他会喊'加油孩子们'。到了停车场，我和弟弟假装打闹，他就绕场跑步，最后我们再跑回家。

Really, like, you know, he grew up in a time in Hong Kong when actually it wasn't really exercise was not really a thing, but his dad was unusual for his time and that he would take him spearfishing and swimming and was also, like, emphasizing that these things are important. And he so when I was little, he was always having us practice martial arts with him in the in the garage, and then we would run after dinner at, 10:00 at night to, like, my pediatrician's office had, like, parking lot. That was, a mile away. I mean, after at 10PM, we would be running in the dark after him, and he'd be like, come on, guys. And then we would get to the parking lot, and my brother and I would just, like, kinda pretend to beat each other up while he's, like, running laps around the parking lot, and we'd run home.

还有萤火虫，我对这些有着深刻的感官记忆。他也会带我们去画室，做些与他工作相关的小项目，比如付20美元让我们画个篮球。或者给我们漫威漫画说'来上解剖课'，结果我们只顾看漫画，他气得要命。但这些都深深融入了我们的生活。

And like the lightning bugs, and I just have such a memory, a sense memory of that. And then also he would bring us up in the studio to paint and like do little projects that were tied to his projects, and he would like pay us like $20 to like paint a basketball or something like that. Or he would give us Marvel Comics and be like, okay. This is we're gonna do some anatomy lessons, and then we just were ended up reading the comics, and he was so mad at us. But that we you know, that this was something that was, like, this was in our life.

这就是日常生活。我想起祖父去世时，他才64岁，死于心脏病，那对我父亲打击很大。你知道，他可能一直觉得自己活不到那个年纪。所以他开始加倍重视锻炼，可以说是在与死亡抗争吧。

This was daily life. And I think when my grandfather died, he died very young. He was 64 of a heart attack. And that was like a real shock for my dad that he you know, I think he always thought maybe he wasn't gonna make it that long. And so he kinda like doubled down on this exercise stuff and this, like, commitment to pushing back against mortality, I guess.

我确实是这么想的。

I really do think about it like that.

你觉得你父亲想让你从体能训练中获得什么？

What do you think your dad wanted you to get from physical strength?

我觉得最初，他其实是想要我们成为他的玩伴。他亲口说过，他说‘我想把你们训练成我的小忍者’。但后来我觉得他是想让我们明白，这和学业一样重要。

I think at first, it was more that he actually wanted us to be his playmates. He actually said that. He's like, I wanted to train you up to be my little ninjas. You know? And but I think he wanted us to understand that it was important, as important as all the academic stuff.

说实话，我完全不记得父母在学业上逼迫过我们。那种刻板印象里的亚洲父母形象，在我们家根本不存在。但他们非常重视体育运动。我们小时候踢过足球，后来特别讨厌，于是有一天父母让我们必须选一项运动。

I mean, I actually have no memory of my parents pushing us academically. You know, stereotypical Asian parents, like, was not a thing. And it was really important to have a sport. So, like, when we were we played soccer when we were really little, and then we hated soccer. And so our parents sat us down one day and was like, you have to pick a sport.

要么继续踢足球，要么坚持游泳。我们选了游泳队，因为实在受不了被踢小腿。后来我们一直游到上大学前，这成了最棒的经历——我们学会了团队合作，也学会了为自己的身体能力感到自豪。

So you either do soccer or you keep swimming. And we said swim team because we just hated like getting our shins kicked in. And so we did swim team for a long time, you know, until we left for college. And it was like the best thing because it we learned how to be on a team and we learned how to, I guess, take pride in what our bodies could do.

你还提到父亲如何训练你和你弟弟武术，这几乎是所有习武之人都会提到的经典经历。

You also talk about how your dad trained you and your brother in in martial arts and how I mean, this is almost like one of the classic things that everyone who studies martial art says.

蒙太奇。训练。空手道但是

Montage. Training. Karate But

就像人们常说的那样，其实重点不在于如何打架。如果你是个武术大师，关键在于你根本不需要动手，而是找到方法避免实际的身体冲突。

like one thing that everyone always says is like, it's actually not about like how to fight. Like, if you're a martial arts master, the whole point is that you don't have to fight, that you find ways to avoid the actual use of the physical conflict.

我在想这些经典场景，比如住在纽约，走在街上就有人对你出言不逊。嗯。作为女性，这种情况经常发生。每次都会有这种身体反应，无论你是否回应。有几次我就直接吼回去了。

I'm thinking about these classic instances of, like, living in New York and walking down the street and just having people say shit to you. Mhmm. And as a woman, you get that quite a lot. And every time, there is this physical reaction and whether you react or not. There have been a few times in which I just shout back.

我回嘴时感觉身体在做出反应，仿佛随时准备战斗。身体进入了战斗状态。但我不会真的去揍那个对我说下流话的人。我不确定这是否值得提倡，就是教人去打架或随时准备打架。但我觉得这里有启示：你要能够为自己相信的东西挺身而出，这可能是我父亲通过体能训练教给我的——不一定要与人对峙，但遇到不公时要敢于发声，并准备好坚守立场。

I talk back and I feel like my body reacting in a way that is like, that it is ready for a fight. It's sporting for a fight. But I don't, like, go and punch the guy, pop him in the teeth because he said something disgusting to me. I don't know that this is, like, something that I want to tell people to do, which is to, like, fight people or be ready to fight them. But I think there is a lesson here in that you want to be able to stand up for something you believe in, and that maybe that is something that my dad taught me, like, with this physical training, which was to not necessarily confront anyone, but if something is unjust to speak up and actually be prepared to, like, stand your ground for that.

我认为身体上不再那么怯懦，确实会改变你对自己在社会和世界中作为个体的认知。

I think that not being as timid physically does do something to how you see yourself as a person in society in the world.

但我觉得肌肉发达的人面临的另一个重要问题，特别是关于肌肉的思考，就是当事情出错时怎么办。

But I think another big thing that comes up with people with muscle, especially thinking about muscle is when things go wrong.

是的。

Yes.

如果要列出我最常思考的三大肌肉群，第一名大概是腹肌、六块肌，这纯粹是出于外观考虑，因为我心想，我没有这个。哦，要怎样才能练出来呢？第二名是我的肩膀，因为高中时受过伤，肩膀疼痛时好时坏，所以总是会想到肩部肌肉。第三名类似的是手——当它不疼时感觉很好，一旦疼痛起来，满脑子就只想着手疼这件事。

If I was gonna name my top three most thought about muscles, like probably number one would be like abs, six pack, and that's purely appearance where I'm like, I don't have that. Oh, what would it take to get that? But then number two is my shoulder because I had an injury from when I was like in high school that has kind of ebbed and flowed of pain in my shoulder and so like shoulder muscle, always think about that and then similar hand like it's great when it doesn't hurt. When it hurts, all that I can think about is my hand is hurting.

我刚才正在想我的后背开始酸痛了。

I was just thinking about how my back is getting sore.

嗯哼。好吧，背部是你的关注点之一。那另外两个前三名是什么？

Uh-huh. Okay. Back back is one for you. What are your other two top three?

我的肩部区域也是，因为所有划桨运动和游泳之类的。我还经常想到手腕和手，它们非常精细，所有这些肌肉都挤在这么狭小的空间里。另外有个冷知识：手指里其实没有肌肉。

My shoulder area also because of all the paddling and whatnot, swimming. And I also been thinking a lot about my wrists and hands. They're so delicate and like all of these muscles, you know, in this very like compressed space. And also fun fact, there are no muscles in your fingers.

手指里没有肌肉？没有。那手指是怎么动的？

There's no muscles in your fingers? Nope. How do you move your finger?

想象一下像杠杆和滑轮系统那样运作。就像你用手部和前臂的肌肉在操纵木偶一样控制自己的手指。

Think about it like a pull like levers and pulleys. They're all like you're puppeteering your own fingers from your muscles in your hands and your forearms.

哦，这真的很有意思。

Oh, that's really fascinating.

我觉得你的脚趾

I think your toes

你的脚趾很相似。那么你认为哪块肌肉是最被高估的？

Your toes are similar. The And what about what is the muscle that you think is the most overrated muscle?

肱二头肌。我在加州大学旧金山分校的解剖学家朋友告诉我，肱二头肌——就是我们做经典秀肌肉动作时想到的那块——只有在特定姿势下才是手臂最强壮的肌肉。换个姿势，最强壮的其实是肱肌，而它甚至得不到任何关注。

The biceps. I was told by my anatomist friends at UCSF that the biceps brachii, which is the one that we think of when we think of this, like, quintessential make me a muscle pose, isn't is only the strongest muscle in the arm when it's in this position. But in a different position, it's actually the brachialis, which is the strongest and doesn't even get that. Doesn't get any

从来没听说过

Never even heard of

这块肌肉。它得不到任何喜爱。是啊，我们总是迷恋那些表面的东西，对吧？

it before. Doesn't get any love. Yeah. It's the surface stuff that we, like, love. Right?

我们喜欢胸肌。它们就在这儿。我们迷恋这个，你知道的，肱二头肌，但我们不了解更深层的肱肌。我们不了解那些在你背部维持直立的小肌肉群。然后我们看到了臀肌。

We love the pecs. They're right here. They're we love this, you know, the biceps brachii, but we don't know about the brachialis this deeper. We don't know about these little muscles that are in your back kind of keeping you upright. And then we see the glute.

其实我觉得臀肌，作为人体最大的肌肉，确实配得上所有的关注。

Well, I actually think the glute, it is the biggest in the human body, and also it it actually is deserves all that attention.

嗯哼。你没事。你是粉丝。是的，我是说这名字很棒。

Uh-huh. You're okay. You're a fan. Yes. I mean, it has a great name.

臀大肌这名字太绝了。没错。而且它实际上就是臀部这个事实也很棒。太神奇了。你觉得有没有哪块肌肉背后藏着有趣的小故事？

Gluteus maximus is incredible name. Yeah. And also the fact that it's literally the butt is also Yes. Fantastic. Is there a muscle that you think is like has a weird little story to it?

让你起鸡皮疙瘩的那些肌肉。哦，这个很酷。竖毛肌，那些细小的肌纤维连接在毛囊底部。所以每当你觉得冷起鸡皮疙瘩时，其实是这些肌肉在收缩试图让你暖和起来。还有当你害怕时，后背和脖子的汗毛都会竖起来——想想豪猪受惊时棘刺竖起的模样，那些其实就是特别长的毛发。

The muscles that give you goosebumps. Oh, that's cool. The erector pili, and there's little muscle fibers that attach to your bottoms of your hair follicles. And so if you think about every time you're cold and you get goosebumps, when those muscles contract, it's trying to warm you up. And also when you're scared, the hairs on your back and your neck all go up and think about a porcupine being so frightened that their quills go up because those are, like, really long hairs.

还有在极度情绪下也会这样，比如敬畏感。想象一下站在大峡谷边缘，或是看着巨浪袭来时。这些肌肉简直是为恐惧、寒冷和敬畏而生的存在。我觉得这实在太美妙了。说真的，它们是最被低估的肌肉，而我们每个人都有。

And then also of extreme emotion, like, awe. You know, think of, like, peering over the edge of, like, the Grand Canyon or, like, watching this huge wave come in. It's like these muscles are very existential muscles of fear, cold, and awe. I mean, I just find that so wonderful. I think those are the most underrated muscles to be quite honest, and and we all have them.

这真的很酷。是的，你热爱待在水里。聊了这么多肌肉，你也在说冲浪。能谈谈你和冲浪的关系吗？

That's really cool. Yes. You love being in the water. In a lot of on muscle, you're also talking about surfing. Can you talk about your relationship to surfing?

主要是热爱，偶尔也恨，多半是因为恨自己不能一直表现得更好。我爱冲浪，爱到不行。喜欢那种飞翔般的感觉，喜欢与水流共舞，就像海水是你的舞伴，你必须配合这位舞伴。有时这位舞伴特别强壮狂野，你就得想办法让它配合你。

It's mostly love and sometimes hate, mostly because I hate that I'm not better at it all the time. I love it. I love it so much. I love the feeling of flying and of flow and of this dance that happens with the water and how the ocean is your dance partner, and you have to work with that dance partner. And sometimes your dance partner is feeling especially strong and rambunctious, and you're trying to wrestle that dance partner into cooperating with you.

有时却又特别轻松，就像踩着轻快的舞步前进。这些比喻简直信手拈来。

And sometimes it's just so easy. You're just, like, quick stepping along the way. I mean, it's the metaphors just write themselves.

这简直是个完美的隐喻，就像是啊。你必须非常努力，但也要学会放手，关键在于在正确的时间和地点。是啊。感受当下，然后不要盯着目标看，也不要低头。对吧？对吧？

It is just such a perfect metaphor where it's like Yeah. You have to try really hard, but then also let go, and it's about being in the perfect place and time and Yeah. Reading the moment, and then not looking where you wanna go, not looking down. Right. Right?

不要过度自我审视。没错。否则你会直接栽进水里。

Not checking yourself too much. Yes. Fall down straight into the water if you do that.

我觉得最让我着迷的是，这就像一堂持续的课程，教会我们如何保持临在感，真正地活在当下。因为当你置身其中时——就像我今天早上那样——你根本不会想其他事情。我的大脑平时总是忙个不停，和大多数人一样，但当我置身海浪中时，所有杂念都消失了。除了我和海洋，只剩下感知即将到来的浪潮，然后思考如何迎接它。

And I think what I love about it is that it is this continuing lesson in that, in both presence, like being physically present. Because when you're out there, like I was this morning, you're not thinking about anything else. And my brain is so busy all the time like so many peoples, and I'm just always and when I'm out there, it's all gone. Everything just disappears except for, you know, me in the ocean and just reading, like, what's coming, and then figuring out how to meet that wave when it gets to me.

你在写冲浪时用了个我从未听过的术语，我觉得特别有意思，就是‘内感受’。

When you're writing about surfing, you used a term that I'd never heard before, and I thought it was so interesting, which is interoception.

大多数人都知道‘本体感觉’，就是感知身体在空间中的位置。而‘内感受’更广义地指身体的内在感觉。这个领域的研究还很新，但学者们正在探讨那些在意识之下，身体自发传递的各种信号。对吧？

So most people know about proprioception, which is like the sense of your body in space. And interoception is how more generally how your body feels. So it's like inside. And the science of interoception is still pretty new, but researchers are, you know, talking about all these signals that your body sends to itself that are below your conscious thought. Right?

应该说是无意识的控制机制。它包括疼痛感、呼吸深度，甚至肺部吸入空气的程度，或是肌肉中的牵张感受器——当肌肉接近可能受伤的临界点时，那种突然的自我保护反应谁都经历过。不是你主动停下来，而是某种力量以可能撕裂肌肉的方式扭转了你的手臂，于是身体就自动停止了。

So conscious control rather. And it's everything from pain and depth of breath, even, like, how deep your lungs are taking in air or, like, stretch receptors in your muscles, which, you know, when your muscle is getting to the point where it's at the point of possible injury, everyone's felt this before where you catch yourself. And it's not that you stop yourself. It's that, something has wrenched your arm in such a way and emotion that you're you're in danger of tearing your muscle. And so it just stops.

肌肉会突然收缩。我以前不知道我们有肌梭这种隐秘的牵张探测器，但身体里其实遍布着各种感受器，它们传递着我们意识不到的信息。学会倾听这些信号的存在，就像某种潜意识层面的环境感知，你知道那里存在着某种静态的讯息。

It just contracts. I didn't know that we had muscle spindles that were like our secret stretch detectors, but, like, there are all these different receptors in our bodies that are telling us things that we don't know, but learning to listen to the fact that they're going on. Like, there's some kind of atmospheric understanding of, like, on some level, you know, there's a static.

这具体是如何体现的？比如本体感觉、内感受，运用和激活肌肉。这些在冲浪中是如何表现的？

How does that play out? Like proprioception, interoception, using your muscles and activating them. How did those play out in surfing?

嗯，我是说，当然，我知道下水时会感到非常冷。但更重要的是，如果在冲浪板上姿势不对，就会像那次我拉伤比目鱼肌一样，当时就觉得‘该停下了’。当身体试图告诉你什么时，你必须倾听。疼痛就是其中一种信号，对吧？

Well, I mean, certainly, I know when I feel really cold when I go in. But also, if I if I've landed funny in my surfboard, that's when I, like, kind of tore my soleus, and I then it was just like, oh, it's time to stop. You have to listen to your body when it's trying to tell you something. And pain is one of those ways. Right?

但同样，当感觉良好时就要继续。不过受伤后如何恢复呢？因为我觉得这又是条漫漫长路——我们往往在受伤或生病后就停止运动，而重新恢复运动确实需要经历漫长过程，需要另一种激活能量。但我想告诉大家的是：你的肌肉会记得。

But it's also, like, when it feels good, keep going. But how do you also then come back from injury? Because, like, I think also that's another long road that I think we often stop doing things that when we've injured ourselves or, you know, when we've been sick, and then I think coming back to movement is also something that is like a long road. There is another activation energy that needs to happen. But I will say one thing I will say to all of us when in those moments is that your muscles remember.

所以肌肉记忆不仅存在于运动神经元模式中，细胞本身对过往锻炼也有记忆。这项研究很新，我在书里也提到过——肌肉细胞会保留某种倾向性，可能是表观遗传层面的，某些基因会因运动被激活或抑制，使得肌肉能更充分响应训练，更快恢复形态（包括围度和力量）。这意味着适当休息没问题。我想肌肉还在告诉你：休息后归来会更强壮。

So muscle memory is not just living in the motor neuron patterns of our movements, but there is a memory in our cells themselves for past exercise. And so it lasts I mean, it's really this research is quite new, and I talk about it a bit in the book, but your muscle cells will retain a propensity when so either it's epigenetic where certain genes are switched on and off with and expressed more fully with exercise and such that your muscles are primed to respond to exercise and can, like, get to return to form faster, and that includes mass and strength. That means it's okay to, like, take a break. And I think that's all another thing that your muscles are telling you, that it's okay to give yourself a rest and then you come back stronger.

冲浪与肌肉力量之间具体有什么联系？

What is the connection specifically between surfing and muscle and strength?

对我而言，冲浪是目前最能体现肌肉力量、展现身体潜能的快乐方式。我喜欢与海洋搏斗的感觉，喜欢理解海洋本身的力量——这就像能量传递。海浪、身体和冲浪板必须协调同步，才能让每道浪的潜力发挥到极致。

I mean, for me, surfing is the most joyful, at this moment manifestation of muscle and strength and what I can use my body for in the world. I love wrestling with the ocean. I love, like, understanding that the ocean itself has its muscularity, and I'm like, it's an energy transfer. Right? So, like, the wave, the body, and the surfboard, all of this has to work in flow and synchronicity for that wave to be ridden, like, to its utmost potential.

肌肉某种程度上关乎对身体的控制，也关乎对心智和专注力的掌控。这是种修行。任何与控制相关的事物都可能游走在健康与不健康的边界。你认为游泳、增肌或冲浪如何保持在健康的控制范围内，而不沦为执念、成瘾或过度？

There's a level in which muscle is about control of our body, but also control of our mind, of focus. We this is a practice. Anything that's about control, I think sometimes it can be healthy and sometimes it can cross the line into unhealthy. So For sure. How do you think about, like, swimming or muscle building or surfing as, staying on the healthy side of control and not viewing it as, an obsession or an addiction or too far?

在希望变得更好这一点上，我与其他人并无不同。我希望你知道，有时我希望能吃得更好、变得更强壮等等。就像每个人对自己的身体都有想要改善的地方。但我确实认为，如果把肌肉视为支撑我们想做的事的基础，那么这对每个人来说意义都不同。所以我希望每个人都能最大限度地用身体去感受快乐。

I am no different than anyone else in terms of I want it to be better. I wish you know, sometimes I wish I, you know, ate better or was stronger or whatever. Like, everybody has some view of their body that they would like to do better. But I do think that if you think about our muscles as supporting the things that we want to do, that looks different for everyone. And so I want everyone to be able to use their bodies to, like, the maximum joy possible.

我认为这就是肌肉存在的意义。因为肌肉是什么？肌肉让我们运动，而运动带来快乐。那么，什么运动能带给你最大的幸福？我该如何在生活中获得更多这样的运动？

And I think that's what muscles are for. Because what are muscles? Muscles make us move, and movement brings us joy. So what is the movement that brings you the most happiness? And how can I have more of that in my life?

这真的就是我对所有人的祝愿。

And that's really, like, all I want for people.

邦妮，非常感谢你抽时间参加节目。非常感谢你的到来，这次对话非常愉快。

Well, Bonnie, thank you so much for making the time to do the show. Thank you so much for being here. This was an absolute pleasure.

谢谢你，克里斯。能和你在这里交谈是我的荣幸。

Thank you, Chris. It was a joy to be here with you.

以上就是本期《如何成为更好的人》的全部内容。衷心感谢邦妮·崔，她的著作包括《论肌肉》和《我们为何游泳》。我是主持人克里斯·达菲，我的新书《幽默我：如何每天笑更多》现已开放预售。您可以在chrisduffycomedy.com了解我的著作和其他项目。

That is it for today's episode of how to be a better human. Thank you so much to Bonnie Tsui. Her books are called on muscle and why we swim. I am your host, Chris Duffy, and my book, humor me about how to laugh more every day, is available for preorder now. You can find more about my book and all my other projects at chrisduffycomedy.com.

《如何成为更好的人》由一群既有强健体魄又有坚定意志的团队制作。TED方面我们有音频硬拉选手丹妮拉·瓦拉雷佐、班姆·张、米歇尔·昆特、克洛伊·夏晓·布鲁克斯、瓦伦蒂娜·博哈尼尼、莱尼·洛特、登齐克·阿松·马尼邦、安东尼娅·蕾和约瑟夫·德布莱恩。本期事实核查由茱莉亚·迪克森和马特奥·萨拉斯完成，他们毫不留情地剔除薄弱论据。PRX方面则有音频界的施瓦辛格——摩根·弗兰纳里、诺拉·吉尔、帕特里克·格兰特和乔斯林·冈萨雷斯。再次感谢各位的收听。

How to be a better human is put together by a team who are both muscular and strong willed. On the Ted side, we've got audio power lifters, Daniella Valarezzo, Bam Bam Chang, Michelle Quint, Chloe Xiaxiao Brooks, Valentina Bohanini, Laini Lot, Tenzik Asung Manibong, Antonia Lei, and Joseph DeBryan. This episode was fact checked by Julia Dickerson and Matteo Salas who dispose of weak facts with reckless abandon. On the PRX side, we've got the Arnold Schwarzenegger's of audio, Morgan Flannery, Nora Gill, Patrick Grant, and Jocelyn Gonzalez. Thanks again to you for listening.

请将这期节目分享给你敬佩其力量的人。感谢你做出这个艰难、坚定、有力的选择来收听本期播客。下周我们将带着《如何成为更好的人类》的更多节目回归。再次感谢收听，请多保重。

Please share this episode with someone whose strength you admire. Thank you for making the tough, strong, muscular choice to listen to this podcast episode. We will be back next week with more episodes of How to Be a Better Human. Thank you again for listening and please take care.

我们总在讨论政府运作不良，但当它运作良好时呢？我必须说我第一次在线更新了护照，体验棒极了。

We talk about how the government isn't working, but what about when it does? I have to say I renewed my passport for the first time online, and it was awesome.

听到这个消息我真的很高兴。

I am so glad to hear that.

关于通过改善系统运作来重建对民主信任的想法。敬请关注下期NPR的TED广播时间播客节目。无论你在何处获取播客，都可订阅或收听TED广播时间。

Ideas about restoring trust in democracy by making systems just work better. That's next time on the TED Radio Hour podcast from NPR. Subscribe or listen to the TED Radio Hour wherever you get your podcasts.