365 | 自信不必咄咄逼人（永远不必！！！）——原因在此

你想变得更加坚定自信，但又不愿显得过于咄咄逼人。你希望拥有有力而直接的表达方式，同时保持真诚的沟通。如果你对此感同身受，那么今天的节目正是为你准备的。今天，我将教你如何在避免对抗性的前提下做到坚定自信。真正的领导者懂得如何既清晰表达观点，又能保持协作精神、说服力，并极大地激励听众。

You want to be more assertive, but you don't want to be super aggressive. You want to have a voice that's strong and direct, but you want to be authentic when you communicate. If you relate to these, today's episode is for you. Today, I'm teaching you how to be assertive without being adversarial. True leaders know how to get their point across while still being collaborative, persuasive, and super inspirational to their audience.

如果你已准备好掌握这项重要技能，请继续收听，因为今天我将倾囊相授。欢迎来到《勇敢发声的艺术》，这是一档助力职业女性突破想象的播客。非常高兴你的到来，现在让我们正式开始节目。欢迎收听本播客。

If you're ready to master this important skill, then keep listening because today, I'm teaching you how. Welcome to the art of speaking up, a podcast that helps professional women thought possible. I'm so excited that you're here. And now onto the show. Welcome to the podcast.

感谢你的收听。我是杰斯，《勇敢发声的艺术》播客的主创兼主持人。这档节目曾获《纽约时报》专题报道，而我本人也曾是企业高管，如今转型为职业女性的播客主播和教练。我致力于帮助你建立作为领导者的深层自信，找到自己的声音，最终在职场生涯中占据更重要的位置。

Thank you for tuning in. I'm Jess. I'm the host and creator of the art of speaking up podcast. This is a New York Times featured podcast, and I am a prior corporate executive turned podcaster and coach for professional women. I am here to help you build deep confidence in your abilities as a leader and to find your voice and ultimately take up more space in your corporate career.

今天我们将深入探讨坚定沟通这个话题。在我与客户的合作中，坚定自信可能是最具挑战性的沟通技巧。而在我刚开始朝九晚五的职业生涯时，也曾为此苦苦挣扎。我在麦肯锡起步阶段获得的第一条反馈就是——我完全没有展现出坚定自信的特质，这严重削弱了我作为领导者的可信度。这个评价让我倍感困扰，因为一方面我当然希望自己能够坚定自信。

And today, I'm deep diving into the topic of assertive communication. Assertiveness is probably the number one most difficult communication skills that I see come up in my client work. And I also really struggled with assertiveness when I was at the very start of my nine to five career. So the very first feedback that I got ever when I was just getting started at McKinsey was that I wasn't demonstrating any assertiveness, and this was really taking away from my credibility as a leader. And I deeply struggled with this because on the one hand, of course, I wanted to be assertive.

我渴望拥有领导者那种强有力的声音。但另一方面，周围许多人展现出的坚定方式让我非常反感。我们在职场中常见的这种坚定风格往往充满攻击性，带有支配意味，且频繁打断他人。所以当被告知需要更坚定时，我以为这意味着要变得更专横、更具侵略性——但这完全不符合我的本性。

I wanted to have that strong voice of a leader. But on the other hand, so many of the people around me demonstrated a style of assertiveness that was really unappealing to me. I saw the style of assertiveness that many of us get exposed to in our corporate careers, which is a style of assertiveness that is very aggressive, that is domineering, that is excessively interrupting. So when I was told that I needed to be more assertive, I thought that meant I needed to be more domineering. I needed to be more aggressive, and that's just not what my personality is.

我是个崇尚协作的人，喜欢帮助团队成员建立联结而非对立。因此我觉得被要求用某种极其不真实的方式沟通和领导，这让我陷入痛苦的困境：要么保持真实的自我，要么展现他人所说的、能让他们有信心提拔我的特质。我仿佛必须在两者间做出选择——既无法建立领导者声誉获得晋升，又无法忠于本真做自己。

I'm a very collaborative person. I love to help people in a room feel connected to one another rather than feeling like they're at odds with one another. So I felt like I was being guided to communicate and lead in a way that felt very inauthentic to me, and this created a dilemma that felt awful, which is I basically had to choose between being authentic to myself or demonstrating the traits people were saying they needed to see from me if they were to feel confident to promote me. So I felt like I couldn't have both. I couldn't build the reputation as a leader and get the promotions and also be true to who I am and be authentic to me.

但幸运的是，事实并非如此。我在企业生涯中领悟到，并在播客和教练工作中不断强调：坚定自信有多种表现形式。我们常见的那种盛气凌人的方式并非唯一选择，还存在更注重协作的坚定模式。当我意识到这一点时，正是我职业生涯真正腾飞的开始。

But luckily, this did not turn out to be the case. Because what I learned in my corporate career and what I am constantly talking about on the podcast and in my work coaching my clients is that there are many ways to be assertive. We often see one way of assertiveness, this very domineering aggressive way of being assertive, but that's not the only way. There are models of assertiveness that are more collaborative. And as soon as I realized that, that is when my career really started to take off.

我之所以与你分享这些，是因为如果你与我有共鸣，或者你也有类似的性格，不认为自己是一个想要咄咄逼人或强势的人，这完全没问题。我教授自信的方式可能会引起你的共鸣，因为我的教学模式强调的是既保持力量与直接，又作为一个以诚信领导、促进团队协作与凝聚力的领导者。这正是我一贯的领导风格，也是我今天要教给你的内容。我将教你一个框架，帮助你在学习更自信的同时提升领导力，而不是让你感觉自己像个混蛋。

And I share that with you because if you relate to me or if you have a similar personality where you don't view yourself as someone who wants to be aggressive and domineering, that's okay. And the way that I teach assertiveness probably will resonate with you because my model of teaching assertiveness is all about being strong and being direct, but also being a leader who leads with integrity and who fosters a sense of collaboration and connectedness in a room. That is ultimately what my leadership style was. That is what my leadership style still is, and that's what I'm going to be teaching you today. I'm going to be teaching you a framework that will help you elevate yourself as a leader by learning to be more assertive, but not in a way that makes you feel like an a hole.

所以今天这一集中我要教授的框架是我独创的，名为“解释与扩展框架”。这是一个用于自信沟通的框架，能让你直接表达观点，使人们视你为强大能干的领导者，但无需采取对抗姿态，也不必对利益相关者采取防御立场。在今天的节目中，我会先通过一个简单类比帮你理解该框架背后的哲学，然后深入剖析“解释与扩展框架”本身，并对其进行解释与扩展——这简直是我人生终极的双关梗。

So the framework that I'm gonna teach in today's episode is an original framework of mine, and it's called the explain and expand framework. The explain and expand framework is a framework for assertive communication that allows you to be direct and get your point across so that people see you as a strong and capable leader, but it doesn't require you to be adversarial, and it doesn't require you to adopt a defensive stance with the other stakeholder. So what I'm gonna do in today's episode is I'm gonna share a simple analogy to help you understand the philosophy behind the explain and expand framework. Then after I share the analogy, I'm going to go deeper into the explain and expand framework, and I'm going to explain and expand upon my explain and expand framework. The ultimate pun of my life.

最后我将提供一些示例语句，帮助你理解如何在职场中运用。现在让我们从类比开始：想象你正在寻找一件简单的白色纯棉T恤。你在商场里心想，好吧，让我去Gap店里问问售货员是否有货。

And then I'm gonna end the episode by giving you some sample language so you can begin to understand what this would look like in a professional setting. So let's get started with the analogy. I want you to imagine that you are on the hunt for a simple white cotton t shirt. And you're at the mall and you think to yourself, okay. Let me walk into the Gap and ask the salesperson if they have a simple white cotton tee.

于是你走进Gap，看到收银台后的售货员，便说：“嗨，我想找件简单的白色纯棉T恤，你们有吗？”现在请想象售货员回答：“没有。”——就这么简单。

So you walk into the Gap and you see the salesperson there behind the register and you say, hey. I'm looking for a simple white cotton tee. Do you have one? And I want you to imagine that the salesperson says no. And that's it.

他们只说了“没有”。想象一下此刻你的感受。如果是我的话，我会感到难受，觉得自己被敷衍了。

That's all they say. They just say no. I want you to think about how you would feel in that moment. If it was me, I would feel bad. I would feel dismissed.

我会觉得这是非常不友善的互动。尽管得到了想要的信息，但事后感觉糟糕。这个类比的意义在于：当我们作为接收方遭遇如此直白生硬的自信表达时（比如直接甩个“不”字），实际上能体会到这种感受并不好。这其实是好事——因为这意味着那种带有攻击性、生硬过度的自信风格不仅你不愿采用，听众和利益相关者同样感觉不佳。所以若想真正掌握自信沟通，你需要摒弃这种简单粗暴只说“不”的模式。

I would feel like this was a very unfriendly interaction. And, you know, even though I got the information I wanted, I don't feel good. I feel bad in the aftermath of that interaction. Now the reason I'm sharing this analogy with you is because we can see that when we're on the receiving end of this level of, like, super blunt directness and this level of just raw assertiveness, like, I'm just gonna say no, we can actually see that it doesn't feel good on the recipient side. This is a good thing because what it means is that the aggressive, blunt, overly direct style of assertiveness that probably doesn't feel like something you want to adopt also doesn't feel good to your audience and stakeholders, which means if you want to get really good at being assertive, you actually wanna move away from this super blunt, super direct model where we just say no.

让我们重演这个类比，寻找最有效的沟通方式。这次想象你走进Gap对售货员说：“嗨，我想找件素白纯棉T恤，你们有吗？”现在设想售货员回答：“素白纯棉T恤去年因白色系流行度下降已停产。”

So let's revisit the analogy so we can find the most effective way to communicate. This time, I want you to imagine that you walk into the gap and you find the salesperson and you say, hey. I'm looking for a plain white cotton tee. Do you have one? And I want you to imagine the salesperson says, the plain white cotton tees were discontinued last year because of the trend away from the color white.

但我们确实有石楠灰色的纯棉T恤，很多人更喜欢这种颜色，因为它们在洗涤时不会像白色T恤那样褪色。好的，那么我的问题是，作为Gap的顾客，与第一个例子中你询问白色T恤而店员直接说没有的情况相比，这种回应让你感觉如何？当对方只是简单说‘没有’和当对方说‘哦，白色T恤已停产，但我们有石楠灰色的，实际上这种更好因为它们洗涤时不会褪色’时，你的感受有何不同？在我看来，后者的感觉要好得多。

But we do have heather gray cotton t shirts, which a lot of people prefer because they don't discolor when you put them in the wash the way that the white t shirts do. Okay. So my question to you is, how does that feel to you as the customer at the Gap compared to the first example where you asked about the white tee and the sales clerk said no? What is the difference between how you feel when they just say no versus when they say something like, oh, the white teas were discontinued, but we do have heather gray, and those can actually be better because they don't discolor in the wash. In my opinion, that feels way better.

我分享这个例子是想告诉你，更直率、更具攻击性并不总是更好。人们普遍认为，我们越直接、越直率、越自信，在场合中就会显得越强大、越出色。但这个例子表明，过于直率往往会让听众感到被敷衍。如果我们面对的是公司层级中高于我们的人，我们绝不想让他们有这种感觉。如果我们让组织中地位高于我们的领导感到被敷衍，那么我们就没有正确地展现自信。

And I'm sharing this example with you to show you that being more blunt, being more aggressive isn't always better. There's this blanket assumption that the more direct we are, the more blunt we are, the more assertive we are, the stronger and better we're gonna look in the room. But this example shows you that often more bluntness can leave our audience feeling dismissed. And if we are speaking to an audience of people that are above us in the corporate hierarchy, we do not ever want them to feel dismissed. If we make a leader who sits above us in the organization feel dismissed, we are not doing assertiveness correctly.

我希望这对你来说是一种解脱，因为我在这里想说的是，很多时候，一种更协作、更温和的自信风格会更有效。现在，我想用这个Gap T恤的例子来教你‘解释与扩展’框架。接下来，我将分析为什么你在Gap得到的第二个店员回应要有效得多。通过这个过程，我将教你‘解释与扩展’框架，然后展示它在企业环境中的应用，因为显然Gap只是Gap。

And my hope is that this is a relief to you because what I'm saying here is that so often a more collaborative, softer style of assertiveness is more effective. Now I wanna use this Gap T shirt example to teach you the explain and expand framework. So the next thing that I'm going to do is I'm going to break down why the second response that you got from the sales clerk at the Gap was so much more effective. And in doing this, I'm gonna teach you the explain and expand framework. And then I'm gonna show you what it would look like in a corporate setting because obviously the gap is the gap.

这与工作场景不同，我希望你能看到一个工作场景或这个框架在工作中的应用版本。在深入探讨‘解释与扩展’框架之前，我想快速插播一下我的免费电子书。它名为《聪明有抱负的女性职场自信指南》。如果你正在努力培养一种真正自信的表达方式，你会喜欢这本电子书。它是免费的。

It's different than a work example, and I want you to see a work example or a work version of this framework applied. Before I go deeper into the explain and expand framework, I wanted to share a quick plug for my free ebook. It is called the smart ambitious woman's guide to assertiveness in the workplace. And if you are working on developing an authentically assertive voice, you are going to love this ebook. It is free.

这是一本完整的电子书。它之所以如此强大，其中一个原因是它不仅涵盖了自信的策略，还谈到了心态。在自信方面，你需要的一个基本要素是内在的信心，能够有力且有信念地表达你的观点。在这本免费电子书中，我提供了一套工具，帮助你在内心感到更自信，从而在外更有效地表达自己。要免费获取这本电子书，请点击节目说明中的链接或访问assertivenessebook.com。

It is a full length ebook. And one of the reasons it's so powerful is because it goes beyond the tactics of assertiveness and talks about the mindset. When it comes to assertiveness, one of the foundational ingredients you need is the inner confidence to be able to articulate your point of view with strength and conviction. And in this free ebook, I offer you a set of tools to help you feel more confident inside so that you can assert yourself more effectively on the outside. To grab this ebook for free, click the link in the show notes or go to assertivenessebook.com.

好的，说完这些，让我们回到节目内容，继续探讨‘解释与扩展’框架。那么，你什么时候会使用‘解释与扩展’框架呢？每当你的老板或利益相关者向你提出一个问题或建议，而你的回答是否定时，你就可以使用这个框架。比如，你的老板说，‘嘿，你能提前三天完成这个交付物吗？’或者房间里的利益相关者说，‘嘿，我认为我们应该在这个新项目的范围中加入ABC。’

Okay. And with that, let's get back into the episode and into the explain and expand framework. So when do you use the explain and expand framework? You use this framework anytime your boss or a stakeholder asks you a question or offers you a suggestion to which your response is no. So maybe your boss says, hey.

每当你收到一个请求、问题或建议，并且你当时就知道你的回答是否定的，这时你就应该引入‘解释与扩展’框架。‘解释与扩展’可以避免我们直接对利益相关者说出‘不’这个词。

Can you finish this deliverable three days early? Or maybe a stakeholder in the room says, hey. I think we should add a b c to the scope of this new project. Anytime you get a request or a question or a suggestion and you know in that moment that your answer to that suggestion is n o, no, this is when you want to bring in the explain and expand framework. Explain and expand prevents us from having to actually say the word no to the stakeholder.

尽管在某些情况下直截了当很重要，甚至需要我们直接说'不'，但在职场环境中，当我们面对职位高于自己的人——比如上司或组织内头衔更高的同事时，必须避免这种生硬的拒绝方式，以免显得傲慢或无视权力关系。学会不用'不'字来表达拒绝，是领导者必须培养的能力。你需要掌握如何在不直接说'不'的情况下对上级提出异议，并最终让对方认同你的观点。这听起来要求很高，对吧？

And while it's important to be direct and sometimes it is important for us to just outright say no in certain situations, in a corporate situation, when we are responding to someone who is in a position of power over us, like our boss or someone in an organization who holds a bigger title than we hold, in those types of situations, we wanna avoid that hard direct no because we don't wanna come off as entitled or as disrespecting the power dynamic. And learning to say no without actually using the word no is a capacity that you have to develop as a leader. You have to know how to push back without actually saying no while talking to someone who is more senior than you and how to get that person to agree with you and say yes. And that sounds like a tall order. Right?

这确实很难做到，但这是领导力的重要组成部分。而'解释与拓展'框架能帮助你实现这一点。框架的第一部分是'解释'——当回应问题或提案时，你需要先说明即将给出答复背后的逻辑。以GapT恤的例子来说，当我走进Gap店铺询问：

That's a hard thing to do. That's one of the big things that comes with leadership, but the explain and expand framework will help you do that. So the first part of the framework is explain. When you're responding to the question or the proposal, you explain the rationale behind the answer that you are about to give. So going back to the Gap t shirt example, when I walk into the Gap and say, hey.

'你们有白色T恤吗？'店员并不会直接说'没有'。他们首先会解释：'白色棉质T恤去年因白色系流行趋势减退已停产'。这样的回答实际上已经解决了我的疑问。

Do you have a white t shirt? The sales clerk at the Gap doesn't say no. The first thing they did was explain. They said the white cotton tees were discontinued last year because of the trend away from the color white. So when the sales clerk at The Gap says that, they are answering my question.

店员让我明白答案是否定的，但全程未使用'不'字。他们通过解释停产原因（白色系流行趋势减退）来传达否定信息。这种表达方式对接收方有积极影响——直接听到'不'会让人感到刺耳，

They are letting me know that the answer to my question is no. However, you'll notice that the sales clerk never actually uses the word no. Instead, the sales clerk explains why the answer is no. The sales clerk says the shirts were discontinued because of the trend away from the color white. This has a positive impact on me as the recipient because it can feel harsh for us to hear the word no.

但了解背后的原因后，我们自然能推导出'由于白色系过时，所以没有棉质白T恤'的结论。作为接收方，我们既获得了所需答案，又以更易接受的方式获得。这就是'解释与拓展'框架的第一环节：用解释替代直接拒绝，向利益相关者说明决策依据。接下来至关重要的第二环节是'拓展'——

But when we hear the reasoning or the rationale behind it, and then we can connect in our own minds that, okay, this reasoning and this rationale means they don't have cotton white tees because the color was discontinued, because the trend is moving away from it. We, as the recipient, get the answer that we need, but we get it in a way that is more palatable to us. So that's the first part of explain and expand, which is where instead of saying no, you explain the rationale for direction that you are about to go in in response to the stakeholder's suggestion. Now the second part of the framework is expand, and this is so, so important. If we're going to say no to something that a stakeholder asks us to do, we always want to offer them something better.

当我们拒绝利益相关者的请求时，必须提供更优方案。不能简单否决对方建议，而要给出更好的替代选择。我称之为'拓展'，因为我们并非只是说'不给你白T恤'或'不做你要的事'，

We don't just wanna say no and cut off their suggestion. We wanna offer them a better alternative. This is why I use the word expand because instead of us just saying, nope. I'm not gonna give you a white cotton tee or nope. I'm not gonna do the thing you're asking for.

而是在原有请求基础上延伸，提供更优质的选项。这是种影响力技巧——帮助对方理解我们的方案为何比他们最初提议的更优。回到Gap白T恤案例：店员回应'白色棉T恤去年因流行趋势停产'后，立即补充道：'但我们有混纺灰T恤，不会像白T恤那样容易泛黄'——这就是在进行'拓展'。

We are expanding on what they originally asked for, and we are offering them something even better. This is an influencing technique where we help them see why our direction is better overall than the initial direction that they proposed. So going back to the Gap white cotton t shirt example, remember, the sales clerk says in response to the question of do you have a white cotton tee, they say no. They were discontinued last year because of the trend away from white, but we do have heather gray T shirts which don't discolor in the same way the white T shirts discolor. So what the sales clerk is doing is they're expanding.

他们提供了一个更好的选择。虽然他们没有白色T恤，但这背后是有原因的。当他们推荐混色灰T恤时，给出了极具说服力的理由——这种颜色即使反复洗涤也不会褪色。'扩展'环节就是在拒绝对方最初提议后，通过解释原因并提供更优方案。Gap店员的例子完美展示了'解释与扩展'如何协同作用。

They're offering a better alternative. They don't carry the white T shirts, but there's a reason they don't carry the white T shirts. And when they suggest the heather gray T shirts, they offer me this really compelling reason to want the heather gray, which is that I don't have to worry about the T shirt disc oloring after I wash it again and again and again. So the expand portion is where we offer something better to the person after explaining to them why we are a no on their original suggestion. So the Gap sales clerk example is really showing us how explain and expand work together.

我进店询问白色T恤，严格来说答案是否定的。但店员没有直接拒绝，而是先解释白色款已停产，因为流行趋势正在远离白色。接着她扩展说：'但我们有混色灰款式，不会像白色T恤那样容易褪色。'现在我想就这个Gap案例提个问题。

I walk in and ask for a white t shirt. The answer to that question is technically no. But instead of the sales clerk saying no to me, the sales clerk first explains that the color white was discontinued because the trend is shifting away from white. And then the sales clerk expands and says, but we do have heather gray, which doesn't discolor the same way a white T shirt discolors. Now here's a question that I wanna ask you about this Gap T shirt example.

你认为哪种店员能卖出更多混色灰T恤？是直接说'没有'的店员，还是说'白色棉T已停产，但我们有洗涤不褪色的混色灰款'的店员？显然是后者。因为后者的回应不仅更友善，也更具说服力。理解这点至关重要——当你需要坚定立场时，特别是面对职位更高的利益相关者，你本质上就是在向他们'推销混色灰T恤'。

Which sales clerk do you think is going to sell more heather gray t shirts? Is it the sales clerk who says no, or is it the sales clerk who says the white cotton tees were discontinued, but we do have heather gray, which doesn't discolor in the wash? For sure, the second one. Because with the second sales clerk, not only is their answer more welcoming, but it's also more persuasive. This is so important for you to understand because when you are being assertive, especially with stakeholders who sit above you in the organization, you are trying to sell them a heather gray T shirt.

你是在争取他们认同你的建议和处事方式。很多人对'坚定立场'存在误解，以为只是强硬地说'不'并坚持己见，这完全背离了本质。设想你是Gap店员，提出异议的利益相关者就像进店要买白色T恤的顾客，而你的职责是销售灰色T恤——这意味着当顾客询问白色款时，你不能简单回绝'没有'。

You are trying to get them to buy into your suggestion and your way of doing things. And this is something that a lot of people miss about assertiveness. They think it's just about being firm and saying no and laying down the hammer, and that couldn't be farther from the truth. It says if you are a sales clerk at the Gap and your stakeholder who is challenging you is a customer walking into the Gap and they're asking for white T shirts and you know that your job is to sell the gray T shirts, which means when they walk in and ask for a white T shirt, you're not just gonna dismiss them and say, no. We don't have it.

你需要深思熟虑地回应，引导他们购买混色灰款式。这正是领导力的核心所在，也是区分中层执行者与高层领导者的关键。随着职位晋升，你获得更高薪酬的部分原因，正是被期待能在非理想条件下达成目标——包括在重要利益相关者持反对意见时，仍能推动项目完成。

You're gonna be really thoughtful in how you respond to them so that you can get them to buy a heather gray T shirt. This is a huge piece of what leadership is about. This is a huge difference maker between someone who can execute and get a lot done at a middle management level versus someone who can move up into executive leadership. As we take on bigger positions and as you become a higher and higher up leader, one of the reasons that you're getting paid more and one of the reasons that it's considered a bigger position is because you're expected to get things done under less than ideal circumstances. And one of the pieces that comes with that is that you're expected to be able to get a project or a piece of work over the line even when influential stakeholders don't agree or have differing opinions.

因此，说服利益相关者理解你的观点，以及优雅拒绝同时维护关系并使其认同你的方向——这种能力随着领导层级提升愈发重要。现在我将展示'解释与扩展'框架在专业/企业对话中的应用。请想象：你的团队负责每日分析数据，识别需要解决的业务问题，且这些问题涉及跨部门协作。

So the ability to persuade a stakeholder to see your point of view and the ability to say no gracefully in a way that preserves the relationship with the stakeholder and in a way that gets the stakeholder to buy into your direction is essential as you move into higher and higher levels of leadership. Now I wanna show you what the expand and explain framework would look like in more of a professional slash corporate type of conversation. So here's what I want you to imagine. I want you to imagine that your team is responsible for looking at data every day and using that data to identify problems in the business that need to be fixed. And I just want you to imagine that these are cross functional problems.

当你发现某个问题需要联合其他团队解决时，你倾向于采用敏捷方式——团队每日识别问题后立即联系相关部门快速处理。现在进一步想象：一位不熟悉你们工作的公司高管，向你提出了一个你明知欠妥的建议。

So when you look at the data and you identify a problem, part of solving that problem involves reaching out to another team and fixing the problem by partnering with that team. Now I want you to imagine that you like to do this in a very agile way where your team is working on this daily. And as your team identifies problems, you are reaching out day to day to these cross functional stakeholders so that you can solve the problems as quickly as possible. Okay. Now I want you to imagine that a senior leader at your company who isn't as familiar with what your team does as you are makes a suggestion to you that you know is a bad suggestion.

所以我想让你想象一下，这位高管来找你说，非常感谢你一直以来的工作，查看这些数据，发现并跨部门解决这些问题。我希望的是，每月能举办一次跨部门九十分钟的论坛，让我们可以实时共同查看数据，持续解决出现的问题。现在我想让你想象，当这位高管提出这个建议时，你知道这是个糟糕的主意。你知道这会浪费九十分钟，因为出现的问题时效性很强，如果每月只开一次九十分钟的会，到开会时就没什么可讨论的了，完全是浪费大家的时间。所以在这种情况下，你知道答案是否定的。

So I want you to imagine this executive comes to you and says, thank you so much for all the work you've been doing, looking at this data, finding these problems, and fixing them cross functionally. What I'd love to do is I'd love to have a monthly cross functional ninety minute forum where we can look at the data together in real time and continue solving the problems that are popping up. So now I want you to imagine that when this executive makes this suggestion, you know that this is a terrible idea. You know that it's a waste of ninety minutes because the problems that come up are so time sensitive that if you were to meet once a month for ninety minutes, there would be nothing left to talk about during the ninety minutes, and it would be a complete waste of everyone's time. So in this case, you know the answer is no.

你绝不可能同意这位利益相关者的建议，因为这根本说不通。记住我说的话，我们永远不想直接说‘不’。相反，我认为你应该用‘解释与扩展’框架来回应这个建议。‘解释’部分是我们分享更深层次的商业逻辑。

There's no way that you're going to agree with this stakeholder's suggestion because it literally doesn't make sense. Now remember what I said. We never wanna actually say no. Instead, what I think you should do is use the explain and expand framework to respond to this stakeholder's suggestion. So the first part explain is where we share the deeper business rationale.

这里非常关键的是，当我们向利益相关者解释商业逻辑时，不能以居高临下的态度，也不要对他们说教。我希望你把它看作是在教育利益相关者，就像Gap店的销售员向我解释为什么不再卖白色T恤一样。同样，我们要教育利益相关者，而不是居高临下。

Now something that's really important about this is when we are explaining the business rationale to the stakeholder, we're not doing it in a condescending way, and we are not talking down to them. I want you to think about it as we are educating the stakeholder. Just like the sales clerk at the Gap was educating me on why white t shirts were no longer being sold. Similarly, we wanna educate our stakeholder. We don't wanna be condescending.

我们不想对他们说教。所以你可以这样对利益相关者说：这是个有趣的建议。通常当我们发现跨部门数据问题时，最多一到三天就能通过非正式联系跨部门合作伙伴解决。这能保持我们的敏捷性，确保问题快速解决。

We don't wanna talk down to them. So you might say something to the stakeholder that sounds like this. You might say, that's an interesting suggestion. So typically, when we spot an issue in the cross functional data, we can solve it within one to two days, maybe three days maximum, just by informally reaching out to our cross functional partner to work with them to get the issue resolved. This helps keep us agile and it ensures a really fast turnaround time when it comes to resolving issues.

我建议保持现有方式而非转向月度论坛，因为我想确保我们能持续快速解决问题，甚至随着我们越来越擅长发现和解决问题，进一步加快解决周期。看，在这个例子中，我先解释了为什么不需要月度论坛——我们喜欢问题出现就解决，而不是等到月底。然后我通过提供一个‘更好’的替代方案进行了扩展。

I would recommend we stick with this format rather than pivoting to a monthly forum because I want to make sure we continue to get quick resolution and even speed up our resolution cycles as we get better and better at identifying these issues and solving them. Boom. So in that example, first, I explained why we don't want a monthly forum. So I explained that we like to resolve the issues as they come up rather than waiting until the end of the month. And then I expanded by offering a quote, unquote better alternative.

这里我提供的‘更好’方案就是保持现有做法，并分享了这样做可能会让我们更快更敏捷。通过这种方式，我避免了直接生硬的拒绝——除非我和对方有非常深厚的专业关系，否则这种拒绝很难让人接受。如果不是这种情况，我要避免直接说‘不’，同时以非常有说服力的方式提出我的建议。

In this case, the better alternative that I offered the stakeholder is let's stick with the way that we're doing it. And I also shared this idea of we might get even faster and more agile doing it this way. So when I do it this way, I'm avoiding that harsh no that is not going to be super palatable to the stakeholder unless I have, like, a super deep, super close professional relationship with them. But if that's not the case, I wanna avoid just hardcore saying no to them. So I'm avoiding doing that while also presenting my suggestion to them in a really compelling way.

这也向利益相关者表明我不畏惧展现领导力。这非常重要。很多时候，我们会接受明知不好的建议，仅仅因为提出者在公司层级比我们高。我们想让他们喜欢我们，想给他们留下好印象，甚至可能怀疑自己——既然他们提出这个建议，肯定更好。我们以为顺从他们的建议是在做‘正确’的事。

And it also shows that stakeholder that I am not afraid to step up as a leader. This is so important. A lot of times, we will take a suggestion that we know is a bad suggestion just because the person making it sits above us in the corporate hierarchy. And we want them to like us, and we want to impress them, and maybe we're questioning ourselves and thinking, well, if they're suggesting this, it must be better. And we think that by going with their suggestion, we're doing a quote unquote good thing.

问题在于，我们明知这对业务不利却仍在执行。但如果我们从不反驳、从不解释和拓展，也从不向利益相关者展示——嘿，听着，我们这样做是有原因的，且应当继续——如果我们从未有过这样的时刻，他们就永远看不到我们有足够的力量去反对，不畏惧在他们提出不合理建议时予以回击。

The problem is we're not doing a good thing because we know that that's not what's best for the business. But also, if we never push back and we never explain and expand and we never show that stakeholder, hey. Listen. We do it this way, and here's why, and here's why we should continue doing it this way. If we never have moments like that, then the stakeholder never sees that we are strong enough to disagree, that we aren't afraid to push back when they suggest something that isn't going to make sense.

这会加深他们对我们的尊重，让他们明白可以更多地信赖我们。任何健康、成熟的领导者都会将这种建设性的反驳视为好事。若你总是附和，反而会引发他们的担忧，质疑你是否具备更高层次的领导能力。

This deepens their respect for us. This helps them see that they can defer to us more and trust us more deeply. So any sort of healthy, well adjusted leader is going to see it as a good thing when you push back in this way. They are not going to see it as a good thing when you always agree with them. That's gonna make them concerned, and it's going to make them wonder if you really have the ability to lead on a bigger level.

因此，这种'解释与拓展'框架不仅关乎保护你的工作量和范围，更是展现你作为领导者的姿态：敢于制定方向，勇于反驳，并懂得如何以增强而非削弱与高层利益相关者关系的方式，有说服力且高效地坚持己见。当你面临必须拒绝的请求时，请运用这个框架。若当下难以实施，只需说'这是个非常有趣的建议，容我仔细研究后再与您商讨后续步骤'。

So this explain and expand framework, it's not just about protecting your workload and protecting the scope of your work. It's really about showing up as a leader who isn't afraid to set direction, who isn't afraid to push back, and who knows how to push back and assert their direction in a persuasive and productive way that strengthens rather than weakens their relationship with high level stakeholders. So if you find yourself in a situation where someone is asking you for something and you know the answer is no, use the explain and expand framework. And if it feels hard to use it in the moment, just say that's a super interesting suggestion. Let me take a closer look and circle back with you to discuss next steps.

这样能为你争取时间，之后再用'解释与拓展'框架向其阐明你的逻辑及替代方案。感谢收听本期节目！若觉得内容实用，请分享给正在提升领导力和沟通技巧的朋友。若想深入学习如何像领导者般沟通并建立内在自信，欢迎加入我的旗舰课程《勇敢发声学院》——在这里，你将获得真实的持久自信，并将沟通提升至高管友好水平。最佳加入方式是通过节目备注链接或访问jessguzzickcoaching.com/academy报名等待列表，提前注册者可获专属福利。

That will buy you some time, and then you can circle back with them later and use the explain and expand framework to walk them through your rationale and why you're recommending an alternative suggestion. Thank you so much for tuning in to today's episode. If you found this really useful, please share it with a friend who is also trying to up level their leadership and their verbal communication skills. And if you want to work with me more deeply to really learn how to communicate at the level of a leader and to have the inner confidence to back that up, I wanna invite you to join me in my signature program, The Art of Speaking Up Academy, where I help you build genuine, lasting confidence, and I help you elevate your communication to an executive friendly level. The best way to join me in The Art of Speaking Up Academy is to add yourself to the waitlist because when you do this, you will get an invitation to enroll early before I open doors to the public.

提前注册者将获得额外奖励，可能包括特别研讨会或与我的一对一私教课。等待列表福利非常优厚，建议不要错过。感谢您的聆听，我们下期再见！

And when you enroll early, you get early enrollment bonuses, which can include a bonus workshop or sometimes it can include a free private session with me. So the waitlist bonuses are really good. I don't recommend missing missing out out on on the the waitlist. You can add yourself by clicking the link in the show notes or going to jessguzzickcoaching.com/academy. Thank you so much for being here, and I'll catch you in the next episode.

再见。

Bye.