本集简介
双语字幕
仅展示文本字幕，不包含中文音频；想边听边看，请使用 Bayt 播客 App。
在找新游戏还是经典游戏？
Looking for new games or classics?
在Noble Knight，两者兼得。
At Noble Knight, you get both.
在发售日购买游戏，用一张卡就能发现二手和绝版珍品，还能享受首日预订服务。
Buy games on release date and discover used and out of print gems with out of print gems and day one preorders in one card.
新旧混搭来节省预算，玩完后可出售或交换游戏，让你的收藏保持新鲜。
Mix new and used to stretch your budget, then sell or trade the titles you're done with and keep your shelf fresh.
浏览桌游、角色扮演游戏、微缩模型和集换式卡牌游戏。
Browse board games, RPGs, board games, minis, and CCGs.
访问nobleknight.com寻找你的下一个最爱，购买团队会反复游玩的游戏。
Head to nobleknight.com to find your next favorite and buy games your group will play again.
大家好，欢迎收听第83期桌游极客播客，我们将狂热探讨桌游、其背后的机制以及创造它们的人们。
Hello, and welcome to episode 83 of the board game geek podcast where we geek out about board games, the mechanisms behind them, and the people who create them.
我是主持人熊猫人，还有我的朋友兼可爱人类搭档——玛丽亚·杰克逊·菲尔普斯。
I'm your host, the man panda, along with my friend and lovely human, my name Maria Jackson Phelps.
你好。
Hello.
你好。
Hello.
很高兴你能来。
Good to have you.
我现在正坐在她家里，因为菲尔普斯刚离开。
I am currently sitting in her house right now because we just had Phelps gone.
贝尔茨走了。
Belts gone.
我们是在2020年西部骰塔大会上认识的。
Now we met at Dice Tower West in 2020.
对吧？
Right?
是的。
Yes.
那是在疫情前的时候。
That was before times.
是啊。
Yeah.
没错。
Yeah.
就在疫情前的最后时刻，虽然听起来很奇怪。
Right at the end of the before times, as weird as that sounds.
但后来我是通过Girls Game Shelf认识你的。
But then I knew you through Girls Game Shelf.
是的。
Yes.
对。
Yeah.
一群多么可爱的女士们啊。
What a wonderful goof of ladies.
那真是一段奇妙的经历。
That was an amazing experience.
是啊。
Yeah.
我之前做过一点内容创作。
I had done a little content before.
我和Kiki联系上了。
Kiki and I linked up.
其实最初是我采访了Kiki。
I actually interviewed Kiki initially.
随着我越来越深入内容创作，她也越来越专注于视频制作，我们两人自然而然地走到一起合作。
As I got more and more into content creation and she got more into video, it just seemed kinda natural that the two of us would link up and work on it together.
那是一段很棒的历程。
And it was a great run.
我们做出了一些很酷的作品。
We did some great things.
我觉得有很多优秀的人加入了那次冒险，后来各自发展，现在仍在桌游行业做着有趣的事情。
I feel like a lot of great people joined us on that adventure and then spun off and are doing fun things in the board game industry even now.
所以我认为...这真的是一群了不起的女性，一起创造了非常酷的东西。
So I think I think it was just a a it was a really beautiful group of women making really cool stuff.
是啊。
Yeah.
而且你们至今仍在影响人们的生活。
And you're still touching lives.
比如，你们的视频仍然在线上。
Like, your videos are still up.
人们仍在观看。
People are still watching.
小女孩们通过这些视频接触桌游，这真的太美好了。
Little girls are finding their way into board games, which is absolutely lovely.
没错。
Yeah.
那最近呢？发生了什么？
But then recently, what?
过去几年，你创办了紫罗兰黛西游戏。
Last few years, you started Violet Daisy Games.
是啊。
Yeah.
没错。
Yeah.
转向了出版领域，这对我来说非常自然，毕竟我观察了整个流程，玩过大量原型游戏，参加了越来越多的设计研讨会，与游戏开发者们共事。
Swung over to the publishing side, which felt very natural to me after kind of watching the process, playing lots and lots of of prototypes, you know, going to more and more design jams and and that sort of thing, working with the people who were working on the games.
感觉通过出版而不仅仅是内容创作来提升声音非常自然。
It just felt very natural to want to move into kind of uplifting voices through publishing and not just content creation.
所以，是的，这就是创办公司的主要原因。
So so, yeah, that was that was the big the big reason for getting that started.
是的。
Yeah.
你们的游戏核心是让人们围坐桌前，共享游戏体验。
And your games center around getting people to the table and the experiences around them.
我当时作为社区经理加入，这感觉棒极了。
I was brought on as the community manager, and so that was absolutely lovely.
有时候你会担心和朋友共事，但我们工作内外都保持着极好的关系。
It's sometimes you're, like, a little worried to, you know, work with your friends, but it was a great we have a great relationship working and otherwise.
确实如此。
Absolutely.
特别是和你合作，让Violet Daisy Games的整个运营变得轻松许多，因为我信任你。
I think working with you in particular, you know, has made the entire experience of Violet Daisy Games so much easier because I trust you.
而且我觉得你也完全信任我。
And I feel like you trust me Absolutely.
没错。
Yeah.
我们俩几乎能心照不宣地明白对方的想法。
Two of us kind of almost intuitively know, okay.
项目即将启动。
Project's coming up.
这些任务需要完成，而我完全不用担心你负责的部分，因为你总能搞定。
This needs to be done, and I don't have to worry about your side because you've got it.
是的。
Yeah.
经营小企业时，能放心把工作交给专业人士处理，让他们为你分忧解难，这种感觉真的非常踏实。
So and that is a very comforting feeling when you're renting a small business to really know that you can let something go and give it to someone who's a professional, and they will take care of that for you, and it's just off your plate.
所以与你共事不仅是专业上的愉悦，更庆幸你是我最亲密的朋友之一。
So it has been joyful not just to work with you professionally, but to have you as one of my closest friends.
总之，非常感谢你。
So, yes, thank you.
不客气。
You're welcome.
也非常感谢你对我的信任。
Well, thank you so much for, you know, trusting me.
我认为作为小企业主最难的事情之一就是放手，让别人来参与你'孩子'的一部分。
It I think that's one of the hardest things about being a small business owner is to let go and trust other people with parts of your baby.
你
You
知道吗？
know?
是啊。
Yeah.
完全同意。
Absolutely.
现在你从幕后窥探转为在幕后工作，感觉有什么不同吗？
And how is it different, like, that you've kind of peaked behind the scenes and now you're working behind the scenes?
和你想象的完全不一样吗？
Was it completely different than you thought it was?
还是很相似呢？
Was it, like, very similar?
我认为经营任何生意都有一些方面，嗯。
I think there's aspects in running any business Mhmm.
总有些不太有趣的部分。
That are the not fun bits.
是的。
Yeah.
当我们谈到幕后真相时，这些通常不是人们想到发行游戏时会考虑的事情。
And those are the the when we we talk about peaks behind the curtain, those are probably not the things that one typically thinks about when you think about publishing a game.
你知道，我们考虑游戏开发时，会想到参与试玩、去展会演示游戏，还有与许多不同领域的优秀艺术家合作，从平面设计到美术，甚至我认为社交媒体运营也是艺术。
You know, we think about game development and getting to playtest and going to con to demo games and and, working with lots and lots of great artists in different fields from graphic design, art, you know, even I would consider you artists in social media.
你懂吗？
You know?
但然后问题就来了——生产一个绿色米宝要花多少钱？
But but then there's how much money does it cost to produce one green meeple?
明白吗？
You know?
而这些就是那些奇怪的细枝末节，就像幕后操纵杠杆的魔法师。
And and this is the the weird minutiae, the the, the wizard pulling the lever Mhmm.
这部分出版工作或许也有乐趣，只是方式截然不同。
Part of publishing that that's maybe fun, but in a very different way.
你知道的，就像Excel表格也能带来乐趣那种感觉。
You know, fun like an Excel spreadsheet is fun.
嗯。
Mhmm.
有些日子确实不如实际玩游戏有趣，但这仍是关于如何运用消费主义与整体消费的迷人课题——尤其是在当今时代我们如何为大众市场生产游戏。
Which some days is is not as fun as the actual playing of games, but it's still just such an interesting piece of how you use consumerism and consumption overall, but particularly how we we produce games for a mass market in this day and age.
我依然觉得这非常非常有意思。
I still find it very, very interesting.
是啊。
Yeah.
我觉得人们创业时最容易忽略的一点是：你必须具备管理能力。
I feel like the one thing that people forget when they do their own business is that you have to have management skills.
如果你不雇佣具备优秀管理能力的人
And if you don't hire someone with good management
技能，没错。
skills Exactly.
是的。
Yeah.
无论是人员管理还是项目管理，你都需要这些管理技能。
Or pro you know, whether that be human management or project management, you know, you need that management skills.
还有合同也
And also contracts are
非常重要。
very important.
对。
Yes.
现在还有人说什么‘我们就口头约定’这种话。
And people are still doing like, oh, we'll just verbally contract you.
不。
No.
即使你是在和最亲密的朋友共事，也得签合同。
Even if you're working with one of your closest friends Yeah.
合同能保护双方，并明确界定各项期望。
A contract will both protect both of you and makes it very clear what expectations are.
嗯。
Mhmm.
我想你之前提到过有时和朋友共事很难，我认为原因就在于期望没有被明确列出。
And I think I know you alluded earlier to sometimes it's hard to work with friends, and I think that the reason that is is because expectations are not laid out.
明白吗？
You know?
我需要你做这份工作。
I need you to do this job.
表面上这很简单，但这份工作具体包含哪些内容？
On the surface, that seems very simple, but what does that job entail?
你负责为Violet Daisy管理社区。
You You manage the community for Violet Daisy.
你负责Violet Daisy的社交媒体运营，这意味着需要定期发布内容，并保持与社区的定期互动。
You do the social media for Violet Daisy, and that means, you know, that that posts need to be done in regular, that we need to interact with our community regularly.
这里面包含一系列具体事项，我们已经在合同里详细列明了。
You know, there's a whole list of things that goes goes into it, which we've laid out in a contract.
没错。
Right.
正因为有了这份共识，信任也随之建立——合同明确规定了各项细节要求，我就能放心让你去执行，而不必事后补充说‘我说的社交媒体运营是指每周要在某某平台发几次关于某某的内容’。
So there's that understanding, and I think that's also where a lot of the trust comes in then because we have that contract in place, because those expectations are very well detailed, I can then trust you to fulfill those expectations because I don't have to come back later and say, oh, when I said social media, I meant post on blah blah blah x times a week about so and so.
所有要求都白纸黑字写清楚了。
It's all there.
条款都明文记载着。
It's written in.
如果出现疏漏，也能轻松对照合同条款进行核查处理。
And if anything then if the ball is dropped, it's easy to go back to that and then go, okay.
嗯，这就是我概述的地方。
Well, here's where I outlined that.
哦，我现在明白了。
Oh, I understand now.
你知道吗？
You know?
这样一来沟通就顺畅多了，双方都不会因为事情定义不明确而感到沮丧。
And then the communication is a lot easier than both parties being frustrated because because those things weren't clearly defined.
是啊。
Yeah.
特别是某些工作包含很多细节内容，这些是你未必能想到或了解的。
And especially since certain jobs have a lot of things that details work that you don't necessarily assume or know about.
比如说社交媒体和社区管理。
For instance, social media, community management.
你还得实际制作图形素材。
You have to actually make the graphics.
那是平面设计。
That's a graphic design.
你知道吗？
You know?
你得负责拍照。
You have to, like, take the pictures.
那是摄影工作。
That's photography.
很多管理者没有意识到这也是工作的一部分。
A lot of managers don't realize that's part of the job.
如果你要进入社交媒体领域，比如明确说明我不会负责制图，而是由你来做。
If you're go if you're going to go into social media, like, outlined that I wouldn't do the graphics, you would.
这样我就能把这项工作从我的任务清单中划掉，只需要专注于互动、定期发帖和回复。
And then so that I it would be, you know, off my plate, and then all I'm doing is interacting, posting regularly, and replying.
但你要知道，管理者们没意识到，是的，制作图片、拍照、编辑，所有这些都很耗时，不仅仅是发帖和回复那么简单。
But, you know, managers don't realize that, yeah, creating the graphic, taking the picture, editing, all that takes a lot of time, not just about posting, you know, and replying to people.
确实如此。
For sure.
确实如此。
For sure.
是的。
Yeah.
所以当管理者或其他人没做过这份工作时，他们不会意识到工作流程中所有繁琐的细节和步骤，也就无法理解这份工作的价值所在。
So it's like when a manager or someone doesn't do the work, they don't realize all the minutiae, all the different steps that need to go into the workflow process, and then they don't realize the value of that job.
哦，是的。
Oh, yeah.
我遇到过一些为大型桌游出版商工作的人，他们并不完全理解——某种程度上这也和代际有关，有些比我年长的人会认为社交媒体就是‘发到脸书上就行’那么简单。
I've I've I've met some people that are that are part of larger board game publishers who don't exactly get or who didn't and and I talk and a little bit generationally, you know, some folks that are even a little older than I am who are kinda like, oh, the social media, that just means put it on the Facebook.
对吧？
Right?
或者发到Instagram上。
Or or put it on Instagram.
他们其实看不到其中的价值，因为他们不理解你是如何通过这些与社区互动的，也不明白每个环节需要投入多少工作——要理解算法，要明白什么样的帖子能引发互动，要制作一个成功的Reel、TikTok或Instagram帖子需要多少步骤。就像你说的，这涉及到平面设计、摄影等方方面面，看似只是一个简单的社交媒体帖子。
And and they don't really see the value because they don't understand how you're interacting with the community in that, you know, and and all the work that has to go to in every step, understanding algorithms, understanding what makes a post something that people want to interact with, how many steps it takes to make a successful reel, a successful TikTok, you know, a successful Instagram post, you know, and whether that is, like you say, graphic design or photography or any number of things that go into, you know, just what seems like one very simple social media post.
这背后需要大量的思考和创意投入，这些工作都是有价值的。
There's a lot of thought behind it and a lot of creativity and work behind it, and there's value in that.
所以我认为这是桌游营销过程中非常重要的一环。
So I think I think it's an important pro part of the board game marketing process.
完全同意。
Absolutely.
能聊聊紫罗兰雏菊工作室推出了哪些游戏吗？
Can you talk about what games have come out of Violet Daisy?
当然。
Sure.
让我想想。
Let's see.
我们的第一款游戏是《你们不是在酒馆相遇的》。
Our first one was you don't meet in a tavern.
这是一本包含RPG提示的书，用于开启你的冒险之旅。
It is a book of RPG prompts to get your adventure started.
我们参与制作的第二款游戏...嗯，你知道吗？
The second one we worked on well, you know what?
实际上，我想先退一步说明，我们真正意义上的首款作品是一次合作项目。
Actually, I wanna step back for a second because our very first one, was a collaboration.
它名为《书架护理》，是一本涂色书。
It was called Shelf Care, and it was a coloring book.
我自己也是艺术社区的一员，非常幸运能与业内许多优秀艺术家合作。
I'm a member of the art community myself, and I've been very, very lucky to work with a lot of great artists in this industry.
因此我与蒂姆·德文合作出版了一本书，收录了桌游社区25位不同艺术家的涂色画页。
And so I worked with Tim Devine on putting together a book that features coloring pages from 25 different artists in the board game community.
这是个很棒的项目。
It was a great project.
这是个充满热爱的项目，我至今仍为此感到无比自豪——因为凸显艺术在桌游中的重要性，无论是美学价值还是影响游戏互动方式乃至购买决策，我认为都意义重大。
It was a love project, and I'm still really, really proud of it because highlighting the art and the importance of art in board games between the aesthetic and how you even interact with a game or what makes you purchase a game, I think is a really big deal.
有时候我觉得我们对游戏中的艺术家和平面设计师给予的认可不够，他们极大地影响着你是否会购买一款游戏，甚至影响你如何玩游戏以及游戏带给你的感受。
And sometimes I think we don't give enough credit to the artists and the graphic designers in games and how much that influences both whether or not you even purchase a game, but also how you play a game and how a game makes you feel.
所以我们从《Shelf Care》开始，然后是《Tavern》。
So So we started with shelf care, then there was Tavern.
接下来是Emma Larkins创作的《Epilogue》。
Epilogue, by Emma Larkins came next.
这是一款温馨的小型叙事游戏，讲述的是你生命终结的故事。
It is a, sweet little storytelling game about, the end of your life.
你会死去。
You die.
我特别喜欢用这种方式谈论它，因为这看似是个非常沉重的话题。
I I love talking about it like this because it seems like that would be a very heavy topic.
当然，如果你选择让故事朝那个方向发展，它确实可以很沉重。
And it can be if you choose your story to go like that.
但大多数情况下，人们通过游戏编织的这些故事会变得非常滑稽搞笑，充满了欢声笑语。我认为这其中蕴含了很多意义，因为你是和伙伴们共同创造这个故事的。
But for the most part, these stories that people weave together through the game become very, like, farcical and hilarious, and there's just there's a lot of laughter in there, and I think there's a lot of meaning in it because you're forming you are creating that story with your group of people.
所以我认为作为人类，我们通过讲故事建立联系，当我们共同编织故事时，会与他人产生更多情感联结。
So and I think as as humans that we connect through storytelling, and when we form stories together, we we make more connections with people.
我超爱那款游戏。
I love that game.
现在我们与Mob Vanguard合作的项目是Estefania Rodriguez设计的《波普猫战士》，他们正在寻求海外授权。这是一款超萌的1v1格斗游戏，你可以想象成《街头霸王》那种经典街机风格——只不过角色全是猫咪。
And then the one we currently have with Mob Vanguard now, and they are seeking licensing overseas, is PopCats Fighter by Estefania Rodriguez, which is a really cute one on one fighting game in the the you know, think of, like, Street Fighter or something like that, the old school, retro arcade feel, but they're cats.
游戏里这些可爱的猫咪形象是由Arnel Ballou设计的。
So it's got these adorable cat figures by, Arnel Ballou yeah.
对不起，阿内尔。
I'm sorry, Arnel.
阿内尔的作品太棒了。
Arnel's art is so great.
我身上甚至有一个阿内尔为我设计的纹身。
I even have a tattoo Arnel designed for me on my body.
所以，你看我有多喜欢他的作品。
So, like, that's how much I love his work.
而且它为游戏增添了许多乐趣，因为Steph设计了这个非常有趣的玩法，完美重现了街头霸王那种感觉。
And it just adds so much fun to this game because Steph has put together this really fun, just like, it it evokes the feel of doing the kind of Street Fighter esque.
你知道的，我出拳打你。
You know, I punch you.
你把我推开。
You push me back.
明白吗？
You know?
我们就是，
We're just,
你知道的，我们做那个动作。
you know, we do that move.
对。
Right.
没错。
Yeah.
终结技。
Fatality.
你知道吗？
You know?
随便啦。
Whatever.
但阿内尔的小猫艺术真的让整个游戏生动起来，你知道，因为它从原本的激烈竞争氛围变得有点可爱友好。
But Arnel's little cat art just really kinda makes the whole thing sing, you know, because it it goes from being, like, really more cutthroat and competitive to a little bit cute and friendly.
是啊。
Yeah.
这这这可以接受。
It it it Acceptable.
对。
Yeah.
没错。
Yeah.
就是这样。
There you go.
我认为这种处理方式非常好
I think that's a that's a really good way to play it
因为你已经和我一起演示过了。
because you've demoed with me Yeah.
这个游戏玩过好几次，我们找了些孩子来玩。
This game several times, and we get kids that play it.
是的。
Yeah.
有些孩子肯定从没玩过这类格斗游戏。
Kids that have never played that style of fighting game for sure.
但他们真的玩得很投入。
And they get really into it.
没错。
Yeah.
而且家长们也觉得这游戏非常可爱。
And the parents think that it's it's really cute as well.
所以目前我正在着手开发《酒馆》的续作。
So and then right now under my belt, I'm working on a sequel to Tavern.
她还有很长的路要走。
She's got a way to go.
是啊。
Yeah.
我们今天决定讨论的话题是：从游戏中获得了什么？
The topic we decided to talk about today is what did we get out of the games?
是什么驱使我们玩游戏？
What compels us to play them?
如果你想参与讨论，欢迎回复评论，我会尽量回复大家。
And if you want to, you know, join in on the conversation, reply, comment, and I'll try my best to get to back to you.
但我知道，你真的很看重社交互动。
But I know, like, you really are about the social interaction.
对吧？
Right?
是啊。
Yeah.
我创办紫罗兰雏菊的部分原因，就像你说的，是为了把人们聚集在桌游周围。
It's part of the reason I started Violet Daisy was was, like you said, to bring people together around the table.
所以我喜欢玩的很多游戏都涉及如何与桌上的人互动。
So a lot of what I like to play involves, how I'm gonna interact with the people at the table.
我喜欢友好的斗嘴。
I love smack talk, but in a good way.
从不针对个人，总是非常针对游戏或玩家本身，但确实如此。
Never personal, always very specific to the game of the person, but it's it really is.
我无法和我爱的一群人围坐在桌边，分享很棒的体验。
I'm not getting to sit down at a table with a group of people that I love and and share, like, a really cool experience.
所以无论是一起解谜还是互相较量，这对我来说都是玩游戏的主要动力。
So whether we're solving a puzzle together or we're actually fighting each other or whatever, that that to me is my major drive in playing games.
不过以前不是这样的。
It didn't used to be, though.
我小时候特别好胜。
I was highly competitive as a kid.
什么？
What?
不会吧。
No.
什么？
What?
非常书呆子气，沉迷于那些...不是说那些东西不被社会接受，但在九十年代，那些确实不是一个小女孩该喜欢的东西。
Very geeky and really into things that weren't I don't it's not that they weren't socially acceptable, but they they weren't, you know, something that a little girl in the nineties was supposed to be into.
对吧？
Right?
是啊。
Yeah.
所以，能够玩游戏，和父亲玩些高难度的游戏，和家人还有其他书呆子气的小孩一起，对我来说真的是个很好的发泄方式，让我可以做个数学迷、解谜迷，而且在这种环境下是被接受的。
So, so being able to play games and play tough games with my dad, you know, with my family, and with other kind of geeky kids was a really great outlet for me to kind of just, you know, to to be a math nerd, to be a puzzle nerd, and have it be acceptable in that context.
这种状态大概一直持续到我快三十岁的时候。
So that was that was probably into my late twenties.
玩游戏的原因就是给那种痴迷于Excel表格的极客一面找个发泄的出口。
The reason for playing games was so they had an outlet for that nerdy, Excel spreadsheet loving side as it were.
等到我三十多岁，有了家庭和孩子后，游戏就更多变成了作为父母、作为三十多岁有工作的人社交的方式，变得困难多了。嗯。
By the time I hit my thirties, had a family, had some kids and stuff, it it it became a lot more about socializing as a parent, as someone in their thirties who has a job gets a lot harder Mhmm.
因为我们
Because we
没有那么多时间去结交朋友。
don't have as much time to seek out friendships.
所以加入游戏群组和玩游戏成为了我找到良好社交出口和结交朋友的重要方式。
So being part of gaming groups and playing games was a big way that we that I found good social outlets and made friends.
这确实彻底改变了我的处境。
So that really that really twisted things on its head for me.
我也认为，电子游戏自九十年代以来发展迅猛，因此我可以通过游戏来满足我的竞技需求，而桌游则特别适合与朋友聚会时玩，就像这个周末，我们可以一起喝咖啡、品尝美食。
I think as well, video games have grown so much since the nineties, and so I can get my competitive outlet out through that, and then I can use board games in particular to just, like, hang out with my friends and have some coffee, eat some really great food, like, this whole weekend.
太多美食了。
So much food.
是啊。
Yeah.
而且就是随便聊聊，互相开开玩笑，玩得很开心。
And and just chat and poke a little fun at each other and have fun.
是啊。
Yeah.
没错。
Yeah.
我是独生子女。
I was a only child.
在南方，作为独生子女，你学会了如何闲聊。我通过桌游结识了更多朋友，找到了与不同年龄段的人——不仅是同龄人，还有保姆等——互动的破冰方式。
And in the South, you learn how to chitchat, you know, as an only child, the way I, like, got more friends, got, you know, some kinda icebreaker to interact with people, not just my own age, but, like, babysitters and stuff was through board games.
哦，是的。
Oh, yes.
所以是的。
And so yeah.
事情就是这样发生的。
So that happened.
但后来在我成年后，大学毕业后，我的一位同事，我让她也喜欢上了桌游。
But then in my adulthood, after college, one of my coworker, I got her into board games.
所以就只有我和她玩，两人游戏。
So it's just me and her playing, like, two player games.
我是说，我们什么游戏都两人玩，但那是最棒的。
I mean, we played everything two player, but it was, like, the best.
对吧？
Right?
因为这真的让我们关系更紧密，让我们在桌边相处更自在，然后就能进行更深入的交谈。
Because that really bonded us, and it it made us comfortable with each other around the table, and then you got into more deeper talks.
但现在，你知道的，我们俩都很忙。
But now, you know, we're both busy.
这更像是一种与陌生人互动的方式。
It's more of a way to interact with peep with strangers.
因为我觉得作为成年人，我比小时候更自觉、更尴尬，也更有趣。
Because I think as an adult, I'm more conscious, more awkward, interesting enough than as a child.
小时候你不会那么害怕。
You don't have that fear as much as a child.
我那时还是有这种恐惧，因为我们经常搬家。
I still had it because we moved around a lot.
所以现在作为成年人交朋友更难了，特别是你不再像上学时那样总是和同一群人在一起，或者像我这样在家工作，也不总是能见到同事。
So but now it's, like, even harder to make friends as adults, especially you don't have that you always in school at the same time or you're always in you know, I work from home, so you're not always at work.
所以这对我来说其实是一种结识他人的方式。
So it was a way for me to actually meet meet people.
我觉得游戏能让你专注于某件事而非某个人。
I I feel like the games allow you to focus on something rather than the person.
这样就没有那种被人盯着看的压力，你可以在玩游戏的同时听别人说话。
So it's not that pressure that someone's staring at you so you can still listen to someone while you're playing a game.
不。
No.
完全同意。
Absolutely.
我伴侣经常谈到这点，因为他比我更内向。
My partner talks about this a lot because he is more introverted than I am.
但游戏给了他一个了解他人的途径。
But games give him an outlet to get to know people.
嗯。
Mhmm.
我们作为伴侣最亲密的一些朋友就是通过游戏认识的。
And some of our closest friends as a couple have come through gaming.
是的。
Yeah.
就像你说的，有个共同关注点。
Because like you say, there's something to focus on.
是啊。
Yeah.
这样他就不会觉得个人受到太多关注。
So he doesn't feel like there's a lot of attention on him personally.
嗯。
Mhmm.
但他能通过游戏了解人们的喜好，或者观察他们在游戏中的思维方式。
But then he can, you know, get a gauge from things that people like or, you know, the the way that their mind moves as they're playing a game.
明白吗？
You know?
所以我觉得这是认识他人的绝佳起点。
So I think it's a it's a great starting point for getting to know someone.
对。
Yeah.
尤其是像《So Clover》这样的游戏，你知道我们这周末玩了好多局。
Especially something like, So Clover, which, you know, we played a crap ton this weekend.
是啊。
Yeah.
我觉得当你和别人玩文字游戏时，你真的能了解他们的思维方式。
And I think you really learn how someone's brain works when you play like a word game with them.
天啊。
Oh my god.
甚至能知道他们在做出假设时在想什么。
Or like even what they're thinking when they make assumptions.
没错。
Yes.
你懂吧？
You know?
当他们谈论这个的时候，我就想说：你根本不了解我。
When they're talking about of it, I'm like, you don't know me.
你知道吗？
You know?
或者说，是的。
Or, like, yes.
我们素未谋面，但
I've never met before, but we
却心有灵犀。
are on the same wavelength.
太棒了。
Hell, yeah.
你懂吗？
You know?
就像，对。
Like Yeah.
你为什么能读懂我的心思？
Why are you with my brain?
我知道。
I know.
天啊。
Oh my god.
我们简直是双胞胎。
We're twinsies.
现在有这么多不同类型的游戏。
Now there's so many different types of games.
有社交类游戏。
You have the social aspect games.
有那种，你知道的，战争战斗类游戏。
You have the, you know, war fighting games.
还有那种策略解谜类游戏，需要动脑筋的游戏。
You have, man, the puzzle, like, of strategic games, puzzly games.
我太喜欢了。
I just love that.
我认为这是我大脑中渴望学习或解决问题的部分在起作用。
And I think it it's just the part of my brain that wants to learn or wants to figure things out.
但我就是喜欢游戏中那些解谜的部分，我觉得有些人就是想要不断学习。
But just love that puzzly part of games, and I feel there's there's just people that wants to constantly learn.
而现在，背负着学生贷款的债务，加上大学费用如此高昂，持续当学生已经不被社会所接受了。
And it's no longer socially acceptable to be a constant student in school with all the debt that student loans, you know, and how much university cost nowadays.
所以我喜欢游戏能在这方面给你同样的满足感。
So I love that the games kinda give you that as well.
哦，完全同意。
Oh, absolutely.
是啊。
Yeah.
我会把它们和阅读小说这类活动相提并论
I would I would rank them right up with things like reading novels
嗯
Mhmm.
比如参加继续教育课程或大学课程，学习新机制、新故事时，所有这些都在帮助你的大脑成长，让你以不同方式思考，就像读完一本好书后，你会觉得自己对作者或自身有所领悟。
You know, or even taking doing, secondary education courses or, you know, university classes for learning learn when you're learning new mechanics, when you're learning new stories, all of these things are helping grow your brain and make you think in a different way, the same way a new story would, you know, when you finish, you finish a really good book and you feel like you learned something both about, you know, maybe the author, you know, or yourself Yeah.
当你完成这个过程时。
By the time you've done it.
我认为真正优秀的游戏也能做到这一点。
And I think really good games can do that as well.
是啊。
Yeah.
完全同意。
Absolutely.
我们之前讨论过刻板印象中的游戏玩家形象，我觉得那类书呆子式的形象已经过时了。
And we were talking earlier about the stereotypical gamer, and I think that was, like, the nerdy, kinda geeky person.
没错。
Yeah.
而且我认为这种刻板印象并不准确。
And I don't think that's true.
我认为这种情况已经很久不存在了，特别是随着现代桌游的兴起，我们在展会上四处走动时就能看到。
I don't think it's been true for quite some time, but certainly with the kind of advent of modern board gaming, you know, we walk around cons.
你去的展会比我多，但即使是我参加的展会也是如此。
You go ton more than I do, but even I do.
坐在桌边玩游戏的玩家面孔，并不是你想象中的那种。
And it's not the faces that you see in the people who are sitting down at the table.
毫不夸张地说，其中至少三分之一的人，完全不符合传统'游戏玩家'的刻板印象。
Easily, a third of them are not who you would who comes to mind when you say gamer.
是啊。
Yeah.
你明白我的意思吗？
You know?
我认为每个人都...其实总有一款游戏适合每个人。
And I think everybody has there's there's a game for everyone.
没错。
Yeah.
每个人都能从游戏中获得不同的体验。
And everyone's getting something a little different out of gaming.
这就是为什么我认为任何人都可以成为玩家。
And that's why I think anybody could be a gamer.
就像任何人都可以成为读者一样。
Think anybody could be a reader.
我认为任何人都可以成为玩家，因为游戏类型如此丰富，无论你喜欢什么或出于什么原因
I think anybody could be a gamer, because I think that we have so many different types of games that whatever you're into and whatever reason you're into it
是啊。
Yeah.
我觉得这才是更有趣的部分。
Which I think is the more interesting part.
无论你喜欢什么，都能找到对应的游戏。
Whatever you're into, you can you can find that.
确实。
Yeah.
展开剩余字幕（还有 480 条）
但但你之所以喜欢它，我认为是我们讨论得不够多的一个方面，你知道，我们经常谈论像伊丽莎白的《展翅翱翔》这样的游戏。
But the but the reason that you're into it as I think something we don't talk about as much as, you know, we talk about how games like, Elizabeth's, Wingspan Yeah.
吸引了很多观鸟爱好者。
Brought in so many birders.
对吧？
Right?
而且，你
And, you
知道，所以如果
know, so if
你喜欢鸟类，就有适合你的游戏。
you like birds, there's a game for you.
如果你喜欢非常复杂的谜题，也有适合你的游戏。
And if you like, you know, really intricate puzzles, there's a game for you.
但我希望我们作为一个社群能更多地讨论人们为什么需要游戏。
But I I'd love for us as a community to talk more about, like, why people need games.
我们刚才讨论过需要满足那种小小的科学宅兴趣。
You know, we just talked about we needed to scratch our little scientific nerdy itch.
有些人需要那部分。
Some people need that part.
有些人需要纯粹的
Some people need the social
对。
Yeah.
社交宣泄。
Outlet of it purely.
有些人只是需要角色扮演游戏中创造角色并围绕其构建故事的创意空间。
Some people just need the creativity of playing a role playing game where they get to build a character and a story around that.
人们玩游戏有太多不同理由，远不止'我真的很喜欢这个盒子的配色'这么简单。
There there's so many different reasons that people play games beyond just, I really like the colors on this box.
确实。
Yeah.
而且我觉得把它看作一种小型社交解谜游戏挺酷的。
And I I think it's cool to kind of think of it as almost a little social puzzle.
是啊。
Yeah.
没错。
Yeah.
确实如此。
That is true.
非常正确。
That is very true.
你在玩这个
You're gaming the
游戏。
game.
哦，哇。
Oh, wow.
这个游戏有好多层次。
So many layers to this game.
游戏行业。
The gaming industry.
我喜欢。
I like it.
是啊。
Yeah.
而且我认为它必须真实的原因之一是我们现在时间太少了。
And it's I and I think one of the reasons why it has to be true is we have so little time, you know, these days.
是啊。
Yeah.
用'空气引号'来说。
So with air quotation marks.
不过你知道，我们讨论的是现代社会。
But, you know, we're talking about, like, modern society.
嗯
Mhmm.
在世界上大多数地方，我们除了工作、家庭和其他责任外几乎没有时间，而我们选择游戏说明大脑在告诉我们某种需求——就像你选择吃的食物类型或让你感到舒适的环境类型一样，你寻求游戏体验是有原因的。
In most of the world, we have very little time beyond work, family, you know, other obligations, and that we choose to game says something about something that our brain says we need, just like the types of food you eat or the type of environments that you want to be in and find comforting, there's a reason why you seek gaming out.
无论这个原因是否简单到「我只需要在未来三十分钟里感觉自己很聪明，因为我赢了这局游戏」。
Whether or not that's as simple as I just need to feel like I'm smart for the next thirty minutes because I won this game.
是啊
Yeah.
对吧？
You know?
或者更深层的原因是「我没有时间画一幅画」。
Or if it's if it's a deeper, I don't have time to paint a picture.
是啊
Yeah.
没错
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
但通过这款游戏，我可以在接下来的一小时内与某人共同创造一段故事。
But through the course of this game, I can create a story with somebody in the next hour.
没错。
Yeah.
这很重要。
That's that's important.
这对我们人类而言至关重要。
That's important to us as humans.
是的。
Yeah.
哪怕只是为了与他人建立联系，也是为了更好地理解自我。
Just even for the connection with other people, but understanding ourselves.
对。
Yeah.
确实如此。
Absolutely.
你知道吗？
You know?
有趣的是，我们深植于游戏行业，所以很清楚游戏是为成年人设计的。
So And it's funny because we are entrenched in the gaming industry, and so we know games are for adults.
嗯。
Mhmm.
比如棋盘游戏、策略棋盘游戏、现代棋盘游戏，主要面向成年人。
Like, board games, strategic board games, modern board games, mainly are for adults.
然后还有我们涉及的儿童版本。
And then there is the children's variant that we touch upon.
但我认为大多数人觉得这只是儿童玩具。
But for I think most people, they think it's a children's toy.
只有家里有年纪尚小、还愿意和你玩游戏的孩子时才会接触。
It's only for families with kids that are young enough that still wanna play games with you.
你知道吗？
You know?
就像，身处其中，我的观念完全转变了。
Like, being in this, it just flipped for me.
而且我觉得当美国文化也发生这种转变并意识到这一点时，天啊，那对我们行业来说将是一场疯狂的繁荣。
And I I think that when The US culture kinda has that flip and realized it, then, man, that just that'd be a crazy boom to our industry.
因为，就像德国文化那样，在德国文化中，桌游是面向成年人的，或者
Because, like, the German like, in the German culture, board games are for adults or
面向所有人。
for everyone.
你懂吗？
You know?
是啊。
Yeah.
我认为这是美国资本主义带来的一个不幸的副产品，特别是那些非生产性的事物
I think it's a an an unfortunate byproduct of many of capitalism in The United States in particular that things that aren't productive
嗯
Mhmm.
没有价值
Do not have value.
嗯
Mhmm.
无论是看电视节目、玩电子游戏、玩桌游、花几个小时看书或涂装微缩模型之类的活动，我们——这里我说的'我们'是指美国文化——
And whether or not that is watching television shows, you know, playing video games, playing board games, sitting around for hours and reading books or painting miniatures or something, we don't and when I say we, I mean US culture Yeah.
对那些不被视为生产商品或赚钱的活动，赋予的价值就没那么高
Does not place as much value on something that is not seen as producing a good or or making money or something like that.
所以在更美好的未来，当这个国家以更积极的眼光看待休息与自我关爱，把人们自我舒适看得比商业更重要时，我认为我们会看到成年人游戏风潮更盛——更多桌游机会，人们不必专门请假赶展会拼命玩游戏，因为他们平时工作日就能玩到
So in a in a better future when this country sees rest and self care and people being comfortable themselves in a in a better light as a as a better thing, better than, you know, commerce, then I think we will see an even bigger swing towards gaming as as adults, more tabletop, more opportunities for people to do tabletop gaming and not have to take two days off of work so that they can go rush to a con to try and play as many games as they can because they can't normally do that during their usual work week.
是的
Yeah.
所以我认为平衡是关键，美国在很多方面确实需要更多平衡
So balance, I think, is key here, and we certainly need more balance in a lot of things in The US.
但在工作与生活平衡方面，我认为这是个关键问题。
But when it comes to work life, I think that that's a big one.
所以回到你的观点，我认为当我们实现更多平衡时，会看到大量人群转向这些活动。
So, yeah, to your point, I think that when we see more balance here, we're going to see a big swing of people doing things.
我们在疫情期间短短一段时间内就见证了这种现象。
We saw in such a small little bit of time during the pandemic.
没错。
Yeah.
当人们突然拥有空闲时间，几乎所有人都开始尝试烘焙。
When people did have that time, and suddenly almost everybody went to and started baking.
你看到明星们学习桌游后在TikTok上发帖说'天哪'。
You had celebrities learning board games and then posting to their TikTok that, oh my gosh.
我买了这个游戏。
I I got this game.
我想到曼迪·帕廷金努力适应《展翅翱翔》的规则，我真的很怀念那段时光。
I think of Mandy Patakin, like, trying to get through the the wingspan roles in particular, and I I I miss that.
需要明确的是，我并不怀念疫情本身。
Not that I to be clear, I do not miss the pandemic.
是啊。
Yeah.
是啊。
Yeah.
我想我们瞥见了生活本可以有的样子，对吧。
I think we got a glimpse of what life could be here Right.
如果我们珍视我们的自由时间
If we valued our free time
嗯。
Mhmm.
作为人类，如果我们能像重视工作时间那样重视自由时间。
As we valued free time as human beings as much as we value work time.
是啊。
Yeah.
所以我大力提倡的或许不仅仅是平衡。
So I'm a big advocate of maybe not even just balance.
不如让自由时间比工作时间再多一点？
How about a little bit more free time than we do work time?
是啊。
Yeah.
没错。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
我是说，省下那两小时的通勤时间，嗯。
I mean, losing that two hour, you know, commute Mhmm.
能用那段时间做其他事情确实很棒。
And having that time to do other things was yeah.
噢，那当然。
Oh, for sure.
确实如此。
Absolutely.
完全正确。
Absolutely.
我们刚才聊到角色扮演游戏，这类游戏总让我想起桌面游戏确实能唤起我们的情感共鸣。
And we were talking a little bit about RPGs, and RPGs always remind me that board games, tabletop games really evoke emotion in us.
不仅是解谜的思考过程，还有游戏时产生的情感互动，以及玩家之间的交流体验。
Not just thought of the puzzle, but also emotion with playing the game, but also interacting with each other.
没错。
Yes.
我特别喜欢紫罗兰雏菊这类游戏，它们真的能帮助人们建立情感连接并唤起情绪波动。
And I I love how Violet Daisy game games really help you connect and evoke motion and stuff like that.
不过提到桌面游戏和情绪，我首先想到的就是那种怒掀桌子的暴躁时刻。
But also the first thing that comes to my mind when you talk about tabletop games and emotion is that flip the table rage.
但有时候，你知道的，那种情况难免会发生。
But sometimes, you know, you know that.
这是一种非常强烈的情感。
That's a very strong emotion.
确实如此
It is
这种强烈的情感我很少会有。是的。
a strong emotion that I rarely have Yeah.
现在很少了。
Anymore.
以前在竞争更激烈的时候确实经常出现。
It certainly used to come up a lot more when it's a lot more competitive.
但即便是现在，有时候...我的意思是，就像你可能会非常喜欢一款游戏，它能满足你大脑里的所有需求，让你感觉舒适惬意，就像一杯热茶，一条温暖的毯子包裹着你。
But even now, sometimes, I mean, just as much as you can love a game and it can scratch every single little itch that you have in your brain that you want or make you feel cozy, cup of tea, a comforter wrapped around you.
偶尔你还是会遇到那种让你想暴怒、恨不得把它从阳台上扔下去的游戏。
There you will find the occasional game that just makes you want to kind of rage out and throw it off the balcony.
想把东西都烧掉。
Set fire to things.
但是
But
我觉得这也很耐人寻味
I think that's interesting too.
你懂我意思吗？
You know mean?
虽然没人会主动追求这种情绪，但当你真正产生这种愤怒时，思考『到底是哪个具体环节让我如此恼火』反而很有意思
Nobody wants, nobody necessarily seeks out those feelings, but it is interesting when you do get those feelings to think, okay, what is it about this in particular that really made me angry?
究竟是什么让我如此反感，以至于激发出这种情绪？
What was it that I disliked so much that this emotion came up?
那么这种情绪又如何映射到我生活中的其他方面？
And so how does that translate to other things in my life then?
如果游戏里这个需要协作的环节让我火冒三丈
If the, cooperative nature of having to do this part of this game made me angry Yeah.
那在职场上遇到类似情况时，我是否也会同样愤怒？
Does that make me angry when I have to do it at workplace setting?
明白吗？
You know?
当我在家庭环境中不得不这样做时，我是否在压抑自己的沮丧？
Am I having to tamp down frustration when I have to do it in a family setting?
是的。
Yeah.
懂吗？
You know?
我该如何更好地控制这种情绪？
And how do I how do I control that better?
是的。
Yeah.
我该如何改变或自我对话来让这种情况感觉好一些？
How do I maybe change that or talk to myself to make that feel a little better to me?
你明白吗？
You know?
这不仅让我成为稍微好一点的玩家，或者说肯定更讨人喜欢的玩伴，而且从长远来看，或许能让我成为更好的人，而游戏也可能让我们都变得更好。
Which not only makes me a little bit better gamer or certainly better to play with, but I think maybe makes me a better person in the long run while games could make us better people.
是啊。
Yeah.
我是说，我
I mean, I
不认为人们意识到我们如何通过桌游表达自己或发泄情绪，以及桌游唤起的情感和我们选择玩哪些游戏。
don't think people realize how we express ourselves or vent through board games and the emotions that board game evoke and which games we choose to play.
我认为如果能真正反思并利用桌游时间来理解自己，理解如何处理情绪会很棒，因为我们并没有教人们这些。
And I think it'd be cool if we could really reflect and use that board game time to understand ourselves and understand how we can deal with emotions as well because I don't think we teach people.
我们没教孩子，也没互相教导。
We don't teach children, but we don't teach each other.
我们在学校没学过如何处理情绪
We don't learn about it in school how to deal with emotions
是的。
Yes.
以一种更有效的方式。
In a more productive way.
对吧？
Right?
是的。
Yeah.
在美国肯定没有。
Certainly certainly not in The US.
我知道像丹麦这样的地方，他们会专门讨论我们如何与人互动，如何获得自我满足感。
I know places like Denmark that they specifically talk about how we interact with people, you know, how we we get senses of contentedness in ourself.
但坚持写一年的游戏日记会很有趣，
But wouldn't it be interesting to keep a game journal for a year,
你知道，也许
you know, maybe
甚至六个月，每天玩一个游戏，然后写下你的感受，之后再回顾并思考：这款游戏的机制是什么？
six months even, play a game every day and then write down the things that you felt and then go back and go, okay, what are the mechanics in this game?
主题是什么？
What are the themes?
你知道，我和谁一起玩的？
You know, who did I play with?
那么为什么我对这款游戏有这种感觉？
So why did I feel this way about this game?
现在这些机制是什么？
Now what of, what of these, what are these mechanics?
社交层面是什么？
What is the social aspect?
我现实生活中的审美是什么？
What is the aesthetic in my real life?
这会唤起同样的感受吗？
Does that evoke the same thing?
是的。
Yeah.
那可真是，这里面随便挑个方向都能写出篇论文来。
That would be so, there's a, there's a dissertation in there somewhere for somebody.
我给你找了个研究课题。
I got a research project for you.
这就对了。
There you go.
是啊。
Yeah.
去申请些经费吧。
Get some funding.
记得给我们署名就行。
Just credit us.
好吗？
Okay?
而且有些游戏确实是专门，我想，也多少带点这种设计意图。
And there's certain games that are specifically, I guess, designed to do that as well a little bit.
嗯
Mhmm.
但大多数人并不会被那些吸引。
But most people don't, like, gravitate to those.
但任何游戏、任何互动，你知道，都可以引发思考。
But any game, any interaction, you know, you can reflect upon.
所以这非常有趣。
So it's very interesting.
菲尔普斯大会刚结束。
Phelps Con just happened.
对吧？
Right?
是的。
Yeah.
那是在你家举办的三天游戏马拉松。
It was a three day gaming marathon at your home.
你邀请了一大帮朋友过来。
You had a whole bunch of friends over.
我飞去的。
I flew up.
你还有个认识很久的朋友也飞过去了。
You had a long time friend also that flew up.
是啊。
Yeah.
没错。
Yeah.
而且，那简直太棒了。
And, it was absolutely amazing.
特别有意思。
So much fun.
我们家里来了好多人。
We had so many people in the house.
我们养了好多狗。
We had so many dogs.
确实如此。
We did.
我们至少有一天养了五只狗。
We, had five dogs at least one day.
是啊。
Yeah.
阿曼达阿姨特别受我狗狗们的青睐，因为她是零食派发员。
And auntie Amanda is a favorite of my dogs in particular because she is the giver of snacks.
各种好吃的。
Treats.
从不间断。
Always.
所以姑娘们都知道，阿曼达在零食方面特别大方。
So the girls know that, Amanda's a light touch when it comes to treats.
我知道。
I know.
每次见到她出现，它们总是特别特别开心。
They're always very, very happy to see her show up.
我知道。
I know.
我实在抵挡不住那小狗眼神。
I can't help it, the puppy eyes.
它们就像在说，
They're like,
来吧。
come on.
是啊。
Yeah.
我超爱这样。
I loved it.
我超爱那种感觉。
I loved it.
虽然有点混乱，但也非常棒。
It was a little bit of chaos, but also it was amazing.
那是良性的混乱。
It was the good kind of chaos.
即便现在我很疲惫，但回想起来，没有任何一刻是我想改变的。
Even now as I'm tired, like, there's no moment when I that I can think of and would change Yeah.
也不会想着要是人数不同，或是我们做了别的安排。
Or, oh, different number of people, or maybe if we'd done this or that.
完全没有。
No.
即使在最混乱的时候，那段时光依然美好。
Even even at its most chaotic, it was just it was a good time.
是啊。
Yeah.
是啊。
Yeah.
这也有点像大会。
It's kinda like a convention too.
就像，我总是很累。
It's like, I'm always tired.
我总是在工作，但那是一段美好时光，因为
I'm always working, but it's a great time because
是啊。
yeah.
没错。
Yeah.
你身边都是对的人。
You're just around the right people.
对吧？
Right?
是的。
Yes.
对。
Yeah.
所以我们要来聊聊菲尔普斯·汗的五场精彩比赛，其宣传语是'爱不是通过行动获得的胜利'。
So we're gonna talk about five games that were highlights of Phelps Khan whose tagline is love is not victory by action.
菲尔普斯·汗，爱不是胜利。
Phelps Khan, love is not victory.
我知道。
I know.
这就像是，哦，我爱你，但你必须和我一起赢。
It's like, oh, I love you, but you gotta you gotta win with me.
你必须热爱它。
You gotta love it.
让我赢。
Let me win.
是啊。
Yeah.
我们有很多共同的朋友，彼此之间感情都很好。
And a lot of the people that we're both friends with, we love each other very much.
但当你坐到牌桌前，这些都得先放一边。
But also when you sit down at the table, that's gonna set aside for a second.
其实我们很爱...等等，你知道吗？
So we love actually, you know what?
我要改下说法，因为我觉得人们有时会把爱等同于在牌桌上放水让对方赢。
I'm gonna change that because I think people sometimes equate love with maybe letting someone win at the table.
而我...所以我要
Me and so I'm
帮你一把。
gonna help you out.
我会让你
I'm gonna let you
赢或者别的什么。
win or something.
我们彼此深爱，都明白大家想要做到最好。
We love each other enough to understand that we all want to do our best.
确实如此。
That's true.
因此我们不仅努力做到最好，是的。
And so we're striving to not only do our best Yeah.
还要鼓励朋友们做到最好。
But encourage our friends to do our best.
所以虽然这里的牌桌竞争非常激烈。
So while the tables here are very competitive.
是啊。
Yeah.
但其中充满了爱。
It is with a lot of love.
我是说，这里既有爱也有胜利。
I mean, there is some love and victory.
有很多。
There is a lot.
有时候，你知道，你可能想把班尼从阳台上扔下去，因为鳄鱼表现太差了，但我什么都没说。
And sometimes, you know, you might wanna throw a Benny off the off the balcony because the crocodile was bad, but I'm not saying anything.
别说什么。
Don't say something.
是啊。
Yeah.
没错。
Yeah.
这很有趣，因为有些时候我们互相帮助，然后有人会说，不。
Or it's so funny because there was points where we were helping each other and then someone's like, no.
这不是合作案件。
This is not a cooperative case.
住手。
Stop it.
你在作弊。
You're cheating.
是啊。
Yeah.
但对我来说最有趣的是，在几个案例中，往往是最愿意合作的人会获胜。
But then the funny part to me was always whoever was the most cooperative in a couple of cases would win.
哦，我刚想到贝丝·索贝尔一直在研究的一个游戏变体，琪琪可能是最友善的人，总是允许别人从她那里拿牌。
Oh, so I just thinking of, a variant of a game that Beth Sobel has been messing around with that, Kiki was probably the nicest person about letting people take cards from her.
没错。
Yeah.
然后
And then
她赢了游戏。
she won the game.
我知道。
I know.
因为我们互相回报了。
Because we, like, reciprocated it.
是啊。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
没错。
Yeah.
所以有时候这就是关键。
So sometimes that's that's the key.
是的。
Yeah.
就是这样。
There you go.
有时候，并不是这样。
And sometimes, no.
有时候就不是。
Sometimes no.
是的。
Yeah.
没错。
Exactly.
你想先开始吗？
So do you wanna go first?
你有什么安排吗？
What is do you have yours in any order?
我没有什么特定的顺序。
I don't have mine in any specific order.
我要从最令人惊讶的开始
I'm gonna start with the the most surprising
好的。
Okay.
骗局游戏。
Game of the con.
好的。
Okay.
是克罗克纳尔。
It was Krokenal.
我们有些朋友带来了他们的大鳄鱼玩家。
We had some friends bring their big time croconol players.
他们带来了他们的鳄鱼游戏板碗。
They brought their croconol board bowl.
那会是个有趣的游戏。
That'd be an interesting game.
那是个碗。
It was a bowl.
对吧？
Right?
是啊。
Yeah.
没错。
Yeah.
他们带来了鳄鱼棋碗。
They brought their croconol bowl.
我又说了一遍。
I said it again.
如果你不熟悉的话，这是一种弹指游戏，有点像...我想说，可能结合了沙狐球、桌游和保龄球的特点。
If if you're not familiar, it is a flicking game that's similar to, I would say, maybe shuffle, board, and pull put together.
嗯。
Yeah.
我自从在中西部生活时就熟悉这个游戏了。
I've been familiar with this game since I lived in the Midwest.
每年在Geek Wake西部大会上这都是件超级超级重要的大事。
It's a huge, huge deal at Geek Wake to the West every year.
虽然比赛规模很大，但我一直没参与过。
Big tournament, but never got into it.
从来就没真正搞懂过这个。
Never really, really got it.
不知怎么的，我们就在桌前坐下了。
And for whatever reason, we sat down on the table.
我当时想，好吧。
I thought, okay.
那我就学学这个。
I'll learn this.
说真的，只花了几秒钟就学会了。
And I mean, it took seconds.
他们刚开始投了几次，我就觉得——我能坐这儿玩一整天。
It took seconds their first couple shots, and I was like, I would sit and do this all day long.
是啊。
Yeah.
某种程度上，这东西在我身边几乎有点危险，因为我还在想着，哦，我可以这样打。
Like, it's almost dangerous in a way for this to be around me because I'm just I'm still thinking about, oh, I could shoot it this way.
哦，我可以试试这种方法。
Oh, I could try it this way.
我可以这样做。
I could do this.
对我来说，发现如此简单的东西很有趣。
And it's and it's fun to me to find something that is so simple.
就是
It's
只是轻弹小牌，试图用它们击中别人。
just flicking little tiles and trying to hit somebody else with them.
没错。
Yeah.
但它确实触动了我大脑中所有愉悦的区域。
And yet it scratched it scratched all those good places in my brain.
这让我想起从小玩到大的地掷球运动。
It reminded me I play a lot of bocce since I was a kid and still as an adult.
它真切唤起了我和祖父以及他的老伙伴们玩地掷球的记忆——同样的方式，同样的玩笑话，'你投不中的'。
It really evoked that memory for me of getting to play bocce with, like, my grandfather and all his old cronies in in in all the same ways because you start a little smack talk and all you can't make that.
你打不到我的。
You can't hit me.
看我怎么收拾你之类的。
I'm gonna get you sort of thing.
而且游戏节奏很快，我们很快就投入其中。
And, games are super quick, so we got in.
据我所知，这个周末不同的人大概玩了二十到二十五次。
I think all told, that that got played probably twenty, twenty five times this weekend by different people.
是啊。
Yeah.
因为每个人都在某个时刻说‘你得教教我，我一直看到大家都在玩这个’
Because everybody at some point, everybody was like, oh, you gotta teach me this because I keep seeing everyone play it.
是啊
Yeah.
没错
Yeah.
所以克罗克诺尔
So Krokonol.
对
Yeah.
大惊喜
Big surprise.
真的很喜欢
Really like that.
哦，太棒了
Oh, that's great.
我身边有好几个人都喜欢它，但是，伙计，对我来说，克罗科诺尔我会玩，但它不是我特别热衷的那种东西，
I have multiple people around me that love it, but, man, yeah, Krokonol is, for me, I will play it, but it's not one of those things that I'll be like,
是的。
yes.
真的吗？
Really?
没错。
Yeah.
还行吧。
It's just the okay.
部分原因是团队，但部分也是因为，每当我参与团队游戏时，如果让别人失望我会感到内疚，而且这是个需要敏捷性的游戏。
It's partly team, but also partly well, whenever I do like a team play, I feel bad when I let someone down, and it's a dexterity game.
所以，我无法完全掌控局面。
And so, like, I can't map it out.
我无法做到最好，因为我知道自己在手眼协调方面表现很差。
I can't, like, do my best because I know I'm terrible at dexterity and hand eye coordination.
所以
So
我要补充一点
I'm gonna add.
我也不是很擅长
I'm not even good at it.
确实
Sure.
没错
True.
就这个而言
For this one.
但我能理解
But I get it.
是啊
Yeah.
当你碰巧打出那些花式进球时，你会
When you get those trick shots that just happen, you're
就像，没错。
like, yeah.
天啊。
Oh my gosh.
有太多次你们突然开始大喊大叫，然后你就觉得，好吧。
There's so many times y'all just started yelling, and you're like, okay.
发生什么事了。
Something happened.
我感觉自己像个天才。
I feel like a genius.
是啊。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
是啊。
Yeah.
那只是运气好罢了。
When it was just luck.
我开玩笑的。
I was kidding.
对我来说，首选会是2-4人玩的《电力都市》，嗯哼。
For me, my number one will be Electropolis for two to four players Mhmm.
来自亚洲出版商Homo Sapiens Lab。
From Homo Sapiens Lab, an Asian publisher.
设计师是常宇、迪、王玲、库、崇伟。
So the designers are Changyu, Di, Wangling, Ku, Chungwei.
我特别不擅长这个——我是说，这些都是亚洲名字，但用英文拼写的。
I'm very bad when it I mean, like, these are all Asian names, but they're spelled in English words.
所以我不太确定具体是哪几个字。
So I don't know exactly.
让它更难吗？
Make it harder?
是啊。
Yeah.
对我来说是这样的，因为如果只是用实际的声音来发音的话...
Well, for me, because if it was the pinging with just the actual sounds Right.
我其实可以拼读出来。
I could actually sound it out.
但当遇到's'时，有时是'x'和's'的组合...
But, like, when they have a s, sometimes an x and s s Mhmm.
而's'其实不是's'。
And s is not an s.
你懂吗？
You know?
就像当'x'不是's'时，我完全搞不清状况。
Like, I was like, when a x is not a s, I have no idea what's going on.
但这个挺有趣的。
But this is a fun one.
我是说，凯西和米格尔，见到他们真好。
I mean, Casey and Miguel, oh, it's so good to see them.
如果你不知道的话，凯西是罐子里的脑子。
If you don't know, Casey is brain in the jar.
而米格尔则是强尼·死亡之鹰。
And Miguel is Johnny Death Hawk.
了不起的人们。
Amazing people.
他们过去在Twitch和Instagram上更常见，现在你还能看到brain in a jar在Instagram上发故事。
They used to be more prevalent on Twitch and Instagram, and you can still see brain in a jar do Instagram stories.
Electropolis是我经常看到的一个。
Electropolis is one that I've always seen around.
我一直想玩。
I've always wanted to play.
这是一款轮抽与板块构筑游戏，但你需要预测自己会抽取多少板块。
It is a drafting and tableau builder, but you're kind of betting how many tiles you're gonna draft.
如果你想在版图中放置更多板块，就得最后行动。
And if you wanna get more tiles to put into your tableau, then you go last.
最后进行轮抽。
You draft last.
如果你想第一个轮抽，就必须少拿些板块。
If you want if you want to draft, you know, first, you have to draft less titles.
游戏的核心是为你的城市发电。
And it's about generating electricity for your, you know, your city.
所以你得建造燃煤电厂。
So you're you're you have to make coal plants.
还得建造核电站。
You have to make nuclear plants.
如果你想要零污染的清洁能源，就得选择风力发电机。
You have to if you if you want the cleanest energy without any pollution, you do wind turbines as the
这就是为什么我们一直听你们说刚刚召集了所有人吗？
Is that why we kept hearing y'all say you've just called all your people?
因为你需要获得民众对可接受污染程度的认可。
Well, because you have to get the approval of the people about how much pollution they will take.
如果污染超标且认可度不足，你会直接损失二、三十分。
And if you over pollute and don't have enough approval, you're just losing twenty, thirty points.
这简直太离谱了！
And this is like, what the hell?
懂吗？
You know?
对。
Yeah.
还有市政厅可以帮助你进行升级改造之类的。
And then there's city hall, which helps you improve and stuff.
而且你只能根据抽取的卡牌在特定区域进行建设。
And you can only build in certain quadrants based on the cards that you draft as well.
这也是基于回合顺序的。
And that's also based on the turn order.
所以这是个非常有趣的解谜游戏。
And so it's very interesting puzzle.
我真的很喜欢去搜寻并收藏它，因为这是个很棒的游戏。
I really like how to, like, go and hunt copy down because it's such a good game.
对吧。
Right.
这是个很棒的谜题，我玩得非常开心。
It's it's a great puzzle, and I really enjoy it.
它看起来挺简单的，但我发现亚洲游戏——我们之前讨论过亚洲游戏和游戏艺术这个话题——
It's pretty, like, basic to look at, but I found with Asian games, you know, we were talking about art in Asian game in gaming in general.
但在亚洲游戏中，你很难通过画面本身判断游戏玩法。
But in Asian games, you can't really tell how the game's played based on the art itself.
有意思。
Interesting.
是啊。
Yeah.
比如在美国游戏中，大多数时候，如果艺术风格温馨可爱，你就会想'哦，好的'。
Like, in American American games, most of the time, if it's a cozy, cute art, you're like, oh, okay.
那肯定会是个温馨可爱的游戏。
It's gonna be a cozy, cute game.
你可能喜欢解谜类游戏。
You love puzzling maybe.
但如果艺术风格很犀利，你就会想'好吧'。
But if it's like a dart art, you're like, okay.
那可能更偏向区域控制类，或者更多战斗元素。
That might be more area control, might be more fighting.
但亚洲游戏就完全捉摸不透。
But with Asian games, you never know.
我还是对《鲨鱼伙伴》很生气。
Still mad about SharkBuds.
我也对SharkBuds很生气。
I am still mad about SharkBuds.
那不是一家亚洲公司。
That's not an Asian company.
做了表面资源地图。
Did surface source maps.
这是个合作型
It's a cooperative
扑克
poker
风格的游戏，你们要合作组成最好的扑克牌型。
style game where you're cooperating to make the best poker hand.
只有那些在获胜牌型（最高牌型）中出过牌的人才能得分。
And only the people that have placed a card in the poker hand that wins, that highest poker hand gets points.
但你们是合作性质的，因为大家都在出暗牌。
But you're cooperatively because you're all playing down cards.
对吧？
Right?
就像你们都在讨论，'不，我们需要这个'。
So it's like you're all discussing, well, no, we need it.
如果我们都选这个，就能凑成同花顺。
We can do it straight flush if we all go for this one.
然后你说，'不行'。
And you're like, no.
不行。
No.
不行。
No.
要不我们全出十点吧。
Let's do, you know, all tens.
拜托。
Come on.
我们那边大概有四张十。
We have like four tens out there.
所以你们正在进行那种协商。
And so you're you're doing that negotiation.
你们摆出的牌面有着非常鲜艳的图案和不同符号，但你自己却是一只小恐龙。
And you're putting out cards that have really vibrant art on it and different symbols, but then you're a little dinosaur.
起始玩家是一只踩着冲浪板的小恐龙，就在你面前，然后通过移动它来决定谁是起始玩家。
The start player is a little dinosaur surfing on a surfboard in front of you, and then that one moves to see who's start player.
那真的很可爱。
That's really cute.
我在Essent看到的那个游戏，我们刚才讨论的，就是所有车卡上某个位置都画着屁股。
And then the game I saw at Essent that we're talking about was the art the cars all had a butt on it somewhere.
但你知道，贝壳里的珍珠，那颗珍珠就是屁股。
But, you know, the pearl inside the shell, the pearl is the butt.
然后他们的起始玩家标记是一件张着嘴的T恤，那个嘴的开口正好能对准所有屁股的位置。
And then they had the start player marker was a a shirt with his mouth open, and the hole in the mouth, like, perfectly aligned with all the butts.
我当时就想，这是个鲨鱼吃屁股的游戏。
And I was like, it's a shark eating butt game.
不对。
No.
这是个关于拉屎的游戏。
It's a shitting game.
就是个超棒的拉屎游戏。
It's just amazing shitting game.
我当时就想，为啥啊？
I was like, why?
哦，天哪。
Oh, man.
或者说，我们玩幽灵电梯。
Or, like, we play ghost lift.
是的。
Yes.
我想它更具主题性，但没你想的那么阴暗，因为你不用在这部充满黑暗艺术、只会上下运行的电梯里收集鬼魂，而且这是个相当简单的淘汰游戏。
And it's I guess it's more thematic, but it's not as dark as you think because you are not trying to collect ghosts on this very dark elevator that just goes up and down with all this, like, dark art, and and it's a pretty easy shedding game.
是啊。
Yeah.
这是个主题黑暗但玩法轻松的淘汰游戏。
It's a light shedding game with a very dark theme.
没错。
Yeah.
这很有趣，因为既然核心机制只是让这些数字上下变动，它可以是任何东西。
Which is so interesting because since the primary mechanic is just to make these numbers go up and down again, it could be anything Yeah.
就是上上下下。
That goes up and down.
对。
Yeah.
可以是冲浪。
Could be the surf.
也可以是过山车。
It could be roller coasters.
它
It
可以是飞机。
could be planes.
对。
Yeah.
可能是
It could be
为什么选幽灵呢？
and why ghosts?
我也不知道。
I don't know.
我一直认为，无论你是否喜欢游戏的美术风格，都应该去玩一玩。
I always feel like you should play a game regardless if you like the art or not.
是啊。
Yeah.
你永远说不准。
You never know.
你永远不知道它是否刚好搔到痒处。
You never know if it just scratched that itch.
所以，我的第一名是Homo Sapiens Lab的《Electropolis》。
So, yeah, my number one was Electropolis from Homo Sapiens Lab.
你的第二名是什么？
What was your number two?
嗯，《鳄鱼》是最令人意外的。
Well, Crocodile was the most surprising.
我没有像《星球大战》那样给它们排一到五的名次。
I didn't number them by, like, one through five Star Wars.
我有五个喜欢的游戏，各有各的原因。
I have five that I liked for different reasons.
哦，好吧。
Oh, okay.
好的。
Okay.
是啊。
Yeah.
不过我最喜欢的游戏，这个会成为我的最爱，是《Brian Boru》。
My favorite game though, this will be my favorite, was Brian Boru.
哦天哪。
Oh my gosh.
那真是让人火大。
That was a rage.
帮我掀桌子吧。
Flip the table for me.
我喜欢区域控制类游戏。
I like area control.
是啊。
Yeah.
我不喜欢。
I don't.
我热爱追求真相。
I love truth taking.
哦，我热爱资深玩家。
Oh, I love old guard gamers.
所以这两种机制的结合已经让我很感兴趣，但最让我感兴趣的是因为这是我朋友Tessa最喜欢的游戏之一。
So the combination of those two mechanics had already interested me, but I was most interested because this is one of my friend for Tessa's favorite games.
嗯。
Mhmm.
而且我确实喜欢玩别人最喜欢的游戏，因为我觉得这能让我深入了解他们的思维方式。
So and I and I do I love to play people's favorite games because I think it gives me a lot of insight to both their brain Yeah.
以及他们玩游戏的方式。
And how they play games.
费特莎和我有着长期的游戏竞争关系。
Fertessa and I have a long standing game rivalry.
所以我也想看看，说实话，她到底能赢我多少。
So I also wanted to see, like, how honestly, how bad she'd beat me.
我每隔一周就会在PGA上和她以及她的搭档詹姆斯一起玩《Arc Nova》。
I play Arc Nova with her and her partner, James, every other week on PGA.
嗯。
Mhmm.
特莎和詹姆斯总是名列前茅。
For Tessa and James are always first and second.
我的搭档本总是第三名，而我的目标只是看能否比两周前表现得更好。
My partner Ben is always third, and then my competition is just to see if I can do better than I did two weeks previously.
我甚至都没进入竞争行列。
Like, I'm not even in the running.
我们玩的是《Ark Nova》，他们正在建造那些像澳洲动物园或圣地亚哥动物园一样精彩的动物园。
We're playing Ark Nova, so they're building these wonderful zoos that are like Australian zoo or San Diego zoo.
而我实际上就是在建，就像一个只有宠物农场的女士，养了只羊和驴子。
And I am literally making, like, the one lady who has a petting farm like a sheep and a donkey.
这就是我能做到最好的了。
That's the best I can do.
所以《Brian Boru》是区域控制的出牌游戏，但真正的转折在于你时刻都在获得收益。
So Brian Boru, area control trick taking, but the real twist on this is there's no point where you're not receiving something.
所以你永远不会像在很多出牌游戏中那样觉得，'我一局都没赢过'。
So you never feel like you know, with a lot of trick takers, you're like, I didn't take any hands.
我没有
I didn't
赢过任何一局。
take any books.
懂吗？
You know?
我肯定会搞砸的。
I'm gonna I'm gonna mess up.
关于 Bayt 播客
Bayt 提供中文+原文双语音频和字幕，帮助你打破语言障碍，轻松听懂全球优质播客。