第85集：回归模拟——2026年的目标而非决心，美学至上的欧洲桌游，以及讨好主持人的小技巧。

掷骰子，这是罗兰德的创作，是的。

a roll it's a Roland draft and write Yes.

游戏。

Game.

所以因为我

So because I

我非常喜欢《指环王》和《霍比特人》的世界观内容。

love Lord of the Rings Hobbit universe stuff.

所以

So

这很好，因为有很多东西可供

which is good because there's a lot for

我现在有很多了。

me out there now.

是的。

Yes.

是的。

Yes.

他们确实将中土世界企业的授权授予了桌游，因此你会看到大量优质游戏推出，我认为如今这些具有主题IP的游戏水平比过去更高了。

They definitely Middle Earth Enterprises is giving the license to board games, and so you're gonna get a lot of good games coming out, which I think nowadays, the thematic IP games are at a higher level than in the past.

比以前

Than they

要好。

used to be.

是的。

Yeah.

我记得有一次Gen Con，有四五款《公主新娘》主题的游戏，但看起来都不怎么样。

I remember some gen con, there were like four or five princess bride games out and they all looked not good.

它们只是被随意贴上标签的简单无聊游戏，完全没有策略性，而现在，这些IP我们真的想要一款真正的游戏，这一点我很欣赏。

They were just like slapped on easy dumb games that had like no strategy and now like, oh, these IPs, we actually want a real game, which I appreciate.

这是一个过于宽泛的论断，因为你并没有玩过那些所有游戏。

That's a broad sweeping statement because you didn't play all those games.

我看了他们的演示，心想：这真的是个游戏吗？

I saw them demoed and I was like, is this a game?

我不确定。

I don't know.

我觉得不是。

I don't think it is.

克里斯蒂娜的犀利观点。

Christina with the hot takes.

所以你看，就是这样。

So there you go.

就是这样。

There you go.

克里斯蒂娜的犀利观点。

Christina's hot takes.

但没错。

But yeah.

所以我同意Yashu的看法。

So I agree with Yashu.

我的桌游目标之一就是完成一个战役或传承类游戏。

That is also one of my board game goals is to finish a campaign or legacy game.

你现在问我完成了什么。

Now you asked me what I finished.

你2025年完成了什么吗？

Did you finish anything in 2025?

哦，2025年没有。

Oh, not in 2025.

我们到底什么时候完成？

When when do we finish?

2023年？

2023?

我们的最后两个。

Our last two.

要么就是我的城市。

It's either my city.

是的。

Yes.

那是一次疫情结束的游戏。

That was a pandemic finish.

我们确实完成了更多

We did finish more

城市。

of city.

然后在那期间，我们玩了《沉睡之神》。

And then sometime in there, we did sleeping gods.

是的。

Yeah.

那是一个很大的成就，我为我们完成它感到非常自豪。

That was that was a big one I was so proud of us for finishing.

嗯。

Yeah.

但我们是有意这样做的，因为我们之前开始玩过《幽暗地城》，但一收起来就再也没有拿出来过。

But we we were intentional about because so we started Gloomhaven before and the minute we put it away, it never came back out again.

然后我们开始玩《霜寒地城》，当时我们就说：好吧，这次我们把它摆出来。

And then we started Frosthaven and then we were like, okay, we're gonna set this out.

别收起来，因为我们要

Don't put it away because we

没给小人上色。

don't painted the mini.

我以前从没上色过小人模型。

And I've never painted minis before.

这很棒。

It was great.

我当时就想，你看。

I was like, look.

我已下定决心。

I'm committed.

是的。

Yeah.

而且我们

And we're

你专门为它留了一张桌子，却从不

You had table dedicated for it that you never

把桌子放在专用的折叠桌上。

put on folding table dedicated to it.

雷娜和菲尔来自《一分钟桌游》，他们是我们的合作伙伴，我们也投入其中。

Reyna and Phil from One Minute Board Games were our partners, and we were into it.

我们在不同的日子里玩了几局。

And we played a few sessions over a few different days.

我们不得不为一场游戏派对搬走那张桌子，之后它就再也没有拿出来过。

We had to move that table for a game party we were doing, and it and it never came back out again.

但《沉睡之神》，我们把它放在了我们的一个游戏桌上，其中一个桌游桌，然后我们就想，干脆就一直摆着吧。

But Sleeping Gods, we put it on one of our game tables, one of our board game table tables, and we're like, let's leave it out.

在我们玩完之前，绝不收起来。

Let's never put the sway until we're done.

如果需要这张桌子，我们就把桌板盖上去，再放另一个桌板在上面，这样它就一直藏在下面。

And then if we need the table, we'll just put the top on top and put another bat on top so it's always there underneath.

而这

And that was

确实管用。

It did work.

这对我们来说很有效。

That worked for us.

这是唯一的方式

That's the only way

我们因为不同的原因享受这款游戏，但我们都同意这一点。

we can enjoyed the game for different reasons, but, like, both of us agreed on it.

所以我们实际上完成了它。

So we actually finished it.

我的意思是，我为我们感到非常自豪。

I mean, I was so proud of us.

是的。

Yeah.

但那已经是几年前的事了。

But that's been a couple years.

嗯。

Mhmm.

是的。

Yeah.

所以嗯。

So Mhmm.

那么，克里斯蒂娜，你还有其他桌游目标吗？

So, Christina, do you have another board game goal?

如果你没有也没关系。

It's okay if you don't.

我确实有一个目标，算是半有吧。

My I do semi have a goal.

我觉得当我有时间教很多游戏的时候。

I think when I I teach a lot of games, k, when I do have time.

我喜欢中等或较重的游戏，但游戏越重，第一次教学就越困难。

And I like medium or heavier games, but the heavier it is, the more rough that first teach is.

我非常偏向于通过阅读和写作学习，所以我更喜欢阅读规则书。

And I I am a very much like a read write learner, so I would prefer reading the rule book.

但如果规则书写得不好，我的教学也会很差。

But if that rule book is bad, then my teach is also bad.

所以我认为我已经意识到这是一个问题。

And so I I think I've learned that this is an issue.

因此，如果我发现规则书写得不好，我的目标就是多做些研究。

So if I see that the rule book is bad, my goal is to let's just do more research.

让我们把这个教学过程改进一下。

Let's make this teach better.

让我看看一些玩过这个游戏的人的视频，因为我最近教了阿曼达·熊猫《郑和的宝船》，这是一款新游戏，由林敏翻译自日语。

Let me watch some videos from people who've played the game because I recently taught Amanda Panda the treasure ship of Zheng He, and it's a new game that is translated from Japanese because it's designed by Hisashi Hayashi.

这本规则书很糟糕，我只是根据规则书来教，结果肯定教错了规则。

And it was a rough rule book, and I just taught it based off the rule book, and I definitely got rules wrong.

所以我觉得，如果我多做一点研究，教学过程可能会更顺畅。

And so I feel like if I had done a little bit more research that could have been smoother.

我的第二次教学好得多，好太多了。

My second teach was a lot better and So much.

大家在第二次教学中都玩得很开心。

Everybody had a lot of fun with that second

教学。

teach.

阿曼达，我记得你当时主动要求玩第二次。

Amanda was I remember you were, like, volunteering to play the second one.

你就像在说，克里斯蒂娜已经把不顺利的教学搞定了。

You're like, oh, Christina got the rough teach out of the way.

现在你就能享受到更顺畅的教学体验了。

Now you'll be the beneficiary of the smoother experience teach.

嗯。

Yeah.

所以我只是想

So I just wanna

第一次教游戏时要更负责任一些。

be more responsible about teaching games for the first time.

我们以前经常这么做，克里斯蒂娜，我们会自己先玩一遍双人版本。

Well, what we used to do a lot, Christina, is, we would play like a two player version ourselves.

因为有时候你需要亲自玩一遍，才能明白，哦，原来如此，而且我们

Because sometimes you need to play through it to like, oh, now this makes sense and We have

有时间做这个。

time for that.

我知道，但我们没时间做那个。

I know, but we don't have time for that.

但那是一款很复杂的游戏。

But that's like a heavy game.

我看着我们那堆没玩过的游戏，就像看着一堆羞耻的收藏。

I'm looking at our shelf of shame like a t bae.

嗯。

Yeah.

我不确定我是不是想挑战这么宏大又野心勃勃的游戏。

I don't know if I wanna go that's such a big ambitious game.

我不确定我是不是想第一次就面对一桌子人来教这个游戏。

I don't know if I wanna do it for the first time with a table full of people.

我可能先和克里斯蒂娜练习一下，然后再重新读一遍规则书，之后就能更好地教给更多人了。

I might just practice with Christina first and then get that, reread the rule book afterward, and then I could teach it properly to more people.

就让我来吧。

Just make me do it.

嗯。

Yeah.

你来吧。

You you do it.

你来吧。

You do it.

她会自动睡着。

She automatically falls asleep.

哦，当你让他读一本不是派对游戏的规则书时，

Oh, she just when you make him read a rule book that's, like, not a party game,

他马上就会睡着。

he will immediately fall asleep.

所以我得说，克里斯汀是个很棒的老师，尤其是那些较重的游戏。

So I have to say that Christine's a really good teacher, especially the heavier games.

她把主题融入教学的方式非常好。

Interact like, incorporating theme into the teach was very good.

我觉得你教《宝藏船》的时候特别流畅。

I think I thought your teach of the treasure ship was so smooth.

谢谢。

It was Thanks.

真的很棒。

It was really lovely.

比第一个好太多了。

It was much better than the first one.

即使作为第二次教学，如果我赶时间，可能会漏掉一些内容，但玩起来还是挺有趣的。

Even as second teach, if I'm, like, rushing through it, I'm gonna miss something, but it's still, like, fun for people to play it.

所以我就想，嗯。

So I'm just like, yeah.

只要你玩得开心，这就足够了。

As long as you had a fun time, that's all that mattered.

确实如此。

That's true.

没错。

That's true.

我的意思是，我觉得我应该没问题，因为教别人东西本来就是我的本职工作。

I mean, I think I should be good because that is my day job at teaching other things.

所以我希望如此。

So I would hope so.

嗯。

Mhmm.

但从一本你第一次读的规则书里教学，是一回事，而完全不同的另一回事。

But it is one thing to teach from a rule book that you're reading the first time, and it's a totally different thing.

比如，如果我要教一个复杂的桌游，我必须先读规则书。

Like, if I am teaching a heavy game, I have to read the rule book.

我得自己先试着玩一遍，然后做笔记，再根据笔记来教学。

I have to kinda play through it a little bit solo maybe, and then I will make notes and teach from my notes.

如果我事先做研究、做笔记、写讲稿，教学效果肯定会顺畅很多，但这要花很多时间。

And it's definitely much more smooth when I actually do the research and take the notes and write the scripts and everything, but that takes so much time.

我记得第一次我的朋友露比带她的朋友来，她一下子热情高涨，看了很多评价，就开始买游戏，然后说：阿曼达，你来教这个。

I remember the first time my friend Ruby brought her friend, and she got went gung ho, just saw all these reviews, just started buying games and go, Amanda, you teach this.

其中一款是《钢铁雄心》。

And one of them was Scythe.

我看了看它。

And I looked at it.

我看了规则书。

I looked at the rule book.

我说：不行。

I'm like, nope.

今天我不会教你这个。

I am not teaching you this today.

把游戏留给我。

Leave the game with me.

我会通读一遍规则书。

I will read through the rule book.

我做了大量的笔记，并且从笔记中整理出清晰易懂的内容。

I took pages of notes, and I tote totter from my notes so that it was understandable.

但这个人是个休闲玩家，根本没玩过什么重策略游戏。

But this is a person that is a casual gamer, like, did not play any heavy games.

是的。

Yeah.

我们本来只是教她一些轻量级游戏，让她慢慢入门，结果她一下子就像爆炸了一样。

You know, like and we were just teaching her lighter games to get her into the hobby, and then she went, poof.

我当时就想，好吧。

And I'm like, okay.

就像从零直接飙到六十，

Like, zero to 60,

一下子就能上手。

like like, quickly.

是的。

Yeah.

嗯。

Yeah.

嗯。

Yeah.

我认为我第一次需要教的真正复杂的game是其中一个T系列游戏。

I think my first really heavy game I had to teach was one of the t games.

我觉得是TLT Wakhan。

I think it was TLT Wakhan.

那是我第一次做笔记的游戏，因为我觉得我需要这些笔记，因为我当时不太理解，游戏中有太多小细节，或者我还没完全搞懂整个机制是怎么运作的。

And I I I that's the first game I took notes on because I was like, I think I need this because I don't under there were, like, so many little edge cases or, like, I didn't quite grok how it all came together yet.

所以我为那款游戏做了笔记，而且那些笔记现在还在。

So then I needed notes for that, but they're still in there.

我觉得它们还在

I think they're

在盒子里。

in the box.

嗯。

Yeah.

手写的笔记。

Handwritten notes.

嗯。

Yeah.

去年秋天参加BGG大会时，我第一次尝试教别人玩《Tensha》这款游戏，有个有趣的故事。

I had a a funny story from this last BGG Con fall where I was attempting to teach Tensha from board and dice for the first time.

这是一款沉重的欧式游戏。

And then it's a heavy euro game.

这时有个人走过来。

And this guy comes by.

他只是路过去自己的桌位，然后问：‘你玩过这个游戏吗？’

He just is walking by on the way to his table and it's like, oh, are you have you played this before?

我们说：‘没有。’

We're like I was like, no.

这是我第一次玩。

This is my first time.

他说，如果你有任何问题，尽管问我。

He's like, if you have any questions, let me know.

我已经玩过了。

I've played this already.

这是一款新游戏，但到那时他已经玩过大约六次了。

It's a new game, but he's already played it something like six times at that point.

我非常喜欢这款游戏，很乐意帮你解决任何问题。

I love this game, so I'm happy to help you with whatever.

所以我在布置游戏时，过去向他请教了几个问题，把一些事情弄清楚了。

So I while setting up, I went over to ask him a couple of things, got some things straightened out.

但后来，他又走过来了，我叫住他，说：嘿。

But then later, he walked by again and I stopped him like, hey.

我们这里有什么地方做错了吗？

Are we doing something wrong here?

因为感觉有什么地方不对劲。

Because something didn't feel quite right.

他说道：‘哦，不是这样的。’

He's like, oh, no.

你应该这么做。

You're supposed to do this.

后来在游戏中，我走到他的桌旁，因为他离得不远，向他请教了一些问题。

And then even later in the game, I went to his table because he wasn't that far away and asked him some clarifications.

我把他形容为一位像是童话中的仙父，游戏界的教父，就这样突然出现了。

And I I described him as kind of this fairy god board game godfather who just kinda came in.

他随时准备帮我们解答问题，但那之后我们就再也没跟他聊过。

Help was just around to help answer our questions and then just never talked to him again after that.

嗯。

Yeah.

所以，谢谢你，这位兄弟。

So thank you, guy.

你甚至不记得他的名字。

You don't even remember his name.

雷。

Ray.

谢谢，雷。

Thanks, Ray.

也许吧。

Maybe

他，谢谢，你太棒了。

he Thanks, You're amazing.

我。

Me

我和我的朋友们称他们为桌游精灵。

and my friends call them board game fairies.

他们过来，教你玩一个游戏，然后跑掉，之后你就再也见不到他们了。

They come over, they teach you a game, they run away, and then you never see them again.

是的。

Yes.

而且他们中的一些人是朋友。

And some of them are friends.

有些人以前在Dice Star West出现过，比如Games Mama过来教我和我的朋友们玩《Nucleum》——另一个骰子类桌游，然后就去玩别的游戏了。

Some of them used to see, like, at Dice Star West, games mama came over, taught me and my friends Nucleum, another boarded dice game, and then went off to play another game.

所以他们真的很可爱。

So they're lovely.

有时候我也喜欢当一个桌游精灵，尤其是当我非常熟悉某个游戏，看到有人在规则书前发愁时，我会主动过去问他们是否需要我教一下，因为我知道很多人更喜欢有人亲自教，而不是自己看规则书学习。

And sometimes I do like to try to be board game fairy, especially if it's a game I really know and I see someone struggling with the rule book, I'll go and ask if they wanna teach of it just to make it a little bit easier because I know a lot of people like it better when someone teaches you rather than learning from the rule book.

是的。

Yes.

你昨晚就是这样对我们做的，阿曼达，克里斯蒂娜在等你玩《宝藏船》，但你看到我们这张桌子，我们正要玩《闪电列车》，却没人玩过。

The you did this last night to us, Amanda, where where Christina's waiting for you to play treasure ship, but you saw this other our my table, we're about to play lightning train, but no one's played it.

嗯。

Mhmm.

所以彼得·沃恩从Car Bar Alchemy过来，正要读规则书，你就突然出现了。

So Peter Vaughn from Car Bar Alchemy was, like, reading about to read a rule book, and then you swept in.

你直接说：让我来教你玩这个游戏。

You're like, let me show you how to play this game.

你玩得很开心。

You enjoyed it.

我觉得大家都玩得很开心。

I I thought everybody enjoyed it.

对吧？

Right?

对。

Yeah.

我很享受，尤其是前三分之二的部分。

I enjoyed I enjoyed it a lot for the first two thirds.

但最后面有一些部分。

And then there was parts of it at the end.

我觉得：哦，我不喜欢这一部分。

I'm like, oh, I don't like this part.

我想：哦，我明白为什么这个游戏会花更长时间了。

And I'm like, oh, I could see why this game takes longer.

因为我听过这种批评。

Because I I've heard this criticism.

这个游戏比你想象的要花更长时间。

This game takes longer than you think.

我在最后阶段终于明白了原因。

And I saw why at the very, very end.

所以我心想：哦，但我太喜欢这个抽袋机制了。

So I'm like, oh, but I love the bag building part so much.

所以我很希望我们能想办法改进这一点，不过这可能是另一个话题了，我想。

So I I wish that we could fix that somehow, but another conversation for another day, I guess.

另一个播客吧。

Another podcast.

但没错，我很享受这个游戏，我觉得袋牌构建确实很棒，我特别喜欢引擎构建类游戏，所以我很喜欢这款游戏。

But, yeah, I I I enjoyed the game, and I think the bag building is definitely I love engine building games, so that's why I really enjoyed that game for sure.

我还有两个目标。

I have two more goals.

朱德，你还有其他目标吗？

Jude, do you have another goal?

没有。

No.

那是我的主要目标。

That's my main one.

如果我能完成这个目标，我就心满意足了。

If I get that done, I'll be happy.

这是个很大的目标。

That's a big goal.

主要游戏，是个巨大的目标。

Main games, huge goal.

是的。

Yeah.

嗯。

Mhmm.

所以它们是独立的，彼此没有关联。

So they're well, they're not related.

我想玩更多的扩展包。

I wanna play more expansions.

我觉得，像我们这样经常接触新游戏并教很多人玩的人，很少有机会玩更高级的变体或扩展包，因为你得教新手，不想一下子让他们上手太难的内容。

I think as people that get a lot of new games in and teaches a lot of people, you rarely get to play the more advanced variant or the expansions because you're teaching new people, you don't wanna throw them in.

对。

Right.

所以最近出了很多不错的扩展包。

So that's what there's so many good expansions that just came out.

比如，我还没玩过《白城堡抹茶》。

Like, I haven't played White Castle Matcha.

我还没玩过城市扩展包或战争克之失落遗迹扩展包。

I haven't played with the city expansion or the Lost Ruins of Warneck expansion.

有太多好游戏了。

There's so many good games.

是的。

Yeah.

不是。

No.

那是轻松的时光。

That's easy time.

我上次刚和来自纸牌炼金术的彼得·沃恩聊过。

I was I was literally talking to Peter Vaughn again from Cardboard Alchemy last time.

我们支持了《小动物厨房》的豪华大版，里面内容超多。

We backed the big giant deluxe version of Critter Kitchen that has a ton of content in it.

但我一直在教新人，每

But I'm teaching new people every Every

每次我们玩的时候，都在教新人。

time we play it, we're teaching someone new.

所以，我们没法把所有这些模块或扩展都加进去。

So it's like, well, we can't add all these modules or expansions.

因此，这个盒子中整整25%的内容被反复玩着。

So it's literally 25% of that box is being played over and over.

嗯。

Mhmm.

而其他的东西则完全没被碰过。

And then the other stuff's completely untouched.

还是挺有趣的，但有些游戏对我来说是这样：好吧。

Still fun, but it's sort of like, there are certain games where I'm like, okay.

这是推荐的初次设置，但我已经玩过两三次了，有时我会强迫下一组玩家不要用初始设置，因为我都玩腻了。

Well, this is the recommended first time setup, but I've played it two times three times already, and I will force the next group sometimes to not play the initial setup just because I'm tired of it.

这取决于游戏。

It depends on the game.

嗯。

Yeah.

我觉得《小动物厨房》里，我觉得那个zoosh no。

I think Critter Kitchen, we I think the zoosh no.

我们加了一些不属于基础内容的东西。

There's something that we put in that is not always a part of the basic stuff.

就是你可以招募的额外厨师。

That that extra chef that you can recruit.

嗯。

Yeah.

嗯。

Yeah.

所以我们确实会做一点这样的事

So we we do a little bit of that

取决于

depending on

游戏。

the game.

嗯。

Yeah.

嗯。

Mhmm.

我同意。

I agree.

我喜欢模块，因为很多时候它们要么更容易使用，要么更容易融入。

I I like modules because a lot of times, they're either gonna be easier or they're easier to place in.

对吧？

Right?

因为它体积小，改动很少。

Because it's small, it changes very little.

或者那些有助于运行游戏或推动游戏进展的东西。

Or things that help run the game or move the game further.

我认为下一个SETI扩展或当前的SETI扩展会提前提供资源。

I think the next SETI expansion or this current SETI expansion gives you resources upfront.

所以我迫不及待想玩这个。

And so it I can't wait for that one.

你几乎能跳过一整轮。

You almost get a skip like a whole round.

这就是别人告诉我的。

This is what people were telling me.

所以我对这个非常期待，因为我很喜欢这个游戏。

So I'm very excited about that because I love that game.

但能更快地深入其中会更令人兴奋。

But to to dive into it more quickly would be even more exciting.

是的。

So yes.

同意。

Agreed.

同意。

Agreed.

然后是我的最后一个目标。

And then my last goal.

嗯。

Uh-huh.

嗯。

Mhmm.

哦，我本来想说，我的目标是清空我们的‘羞耻书架’，

Oh, I was gonna say, I do have a goal of zeroing out our shelf of shame,

但那不现实。

but that's unrealistic.

会发生的。

Gonna happen.

永远不会发生。

It's never gonna happen.

所以立刻笑话你。

So Immediately laugh at you.

这是一个永恒的目标。

That's an evergreen goal.

好的。

Okay.

但你的羞耻架上有规则，因为如果克里斯蒂娜已经玩过，就不算数。

Well, but you have rules on your shelf of shame because if Christina's played it, she doesn't count it.

不算数。

It doesn't count it.

而且如果你玩的是别人的副本，也不算。

And then if you've played someone else's copy, it doesn't count either.

如果克里斯蒂娜玩过而我没玩，但我又想玩，我会把它留在

If Christina's played it and I haven't, but I want to play it, I'll keep it on the

羞耻架上。

shelf machine.

有时候它更像是一个提醒架。

It's more like a reminder shelf sometimes too.

是的。

Yeah.

就像它已经准备好了。

It's like it's on deck.

嗯。

Mhmm.

但如果是一款我不太感兴趣的遊戲，我不在乎我们是否把它放回普通架子上。

And then but if it's a game that I'm not that interested in, I don't care if we put it back on our normal shelf.

我还想在把它从架子上拿下来之前玩两遍。

And I also wanna play it twice before I take it off the

shelf machine。

shelf machine.

这太难了。

That makes it so hard.

要把门槛定得很高，嗯。

To be high bar off the Mhmm.

艾曼达，你的最终目标是什么？

And what's your final goal, Amanda?

整理我的桌游收藏。

To curate my board game collection.

这是个好目标。

That's a good goal.

嗯。

Mhmm.

是啊。

Yeah.

我想像你那样整理，把那些你最爱的、想展示给别人、想一遍又一遍玩的游戏留下来，就保持这样。

I wanna curate it like you do, where you have the the games that you love, that you want to show other people, that you wanna play over and over again and just have that.

但话说回来，就像我们所有人一样，我得说，我们都有各种各样的桌游朋友。

But, I mean, just like both of us, all of us, I have to say, we have a variety of gamer friends.

对吧？

Right?

我们有一群不同的人一起玩游戏。

We have a variety of people that we play games with.

所以很难只保留一些轻量级的游戏。

So it's hard that you you have to keep some of the lighter games.

举办游戏日时，你得保留派对游戏，因为人很多。

You have to keep the party games when you have a game day because there's a lot of people.

你想玩重策略游戏，但并不是每个人都愿意坐上三四个小时玩同一个游戏，或者他们不想动太多脑筋，或者他们想要轻松一点的。

You want to play the heavier games, but, you know, not everyone wants to sit there for three or four hours and play the same game, or they don't want to think that hard, or they want something lighter.

所以现在，我正处于中等偏重的游玩阶段，我觉得对我来说最完美的游戏时长是一小时，但同时我也非常喜欢重策略游戏。

So right now, I'm, like, in that medium heavy zone of play where, like, I think the perfect length for me is that one hour game, but I do love the heavy strategy games at the same time.

所以我只是在纠结：当你需要涵盖多种主题、时长和复杂度的游戏时，到底该保留哪些。

So I I just it's that balance of what do you keep when you need a good variety of game with a variety of themes, lengths, complexity level, and all that.

所以这是一场永恒的挣扎。

So that's That's an eternal struggle.

嗯。

Yeah.

阿曼达，我有个建议给你。

What if, Amanda, I have a suggestion for you.

如果你彻底投入这个熊猫主题，你的收藏只保留所有带有熊猫的游戏呢？

What if you really lean into this panda thing and your collection is exclusively games with pandas?

不管其他游戏有多好、评分多高、支持多少玩家，你都全部扔掉，然后你就能成为那个人。

You get rid of everything else no matter how good, how highly rated, how many players it supports, and then you could be that person.

就像你玩的每一款游戏都是

It's like every game you're

在质疑。

questioning.

那个人。

Person.

嗯。

Yeah.

我得把熊猫塞进我喜欢的游戏里

I would have to stick pandas into games that I love

只是为了能继续保留它们。

just so that I could keep.

它们。

Them.

这很聪明。

That's smart.

是的。

Yeah.

为什么研究里有一只熊猫？

Why is there a panda in study?

我不知道。

I don't know.

是的。

Yeah.

它们只是太空中的一个熊猫。

They're just a panda in space.

也许我可以发起一个活动，让我认识的所有出版商都推出一张熊猫主题的促销卡。

Maybe I can campaign to have all of the publishers that I know do a promo card of a panda.

然后我可以把它们放进我喜欢的游戏里，这样这些游戏里就有了熊猫。

And then I could stick them into games that I love, and then they have pandas in them.

然后我就能保留它们了。

And I can keep them.

我的意思是，他们确实为一些内容创作者这么做。

I mean, they do it for some content creators.

对吧？

Right?

比如骰子塔卡片之类的。

Like like dice tower cards or whatever or what.

所以你也可以这么做。

So you could do that.

那就是你的特色了。

That'll be your thing.

有一个新的决议。

There's a new resolution.

我的意思是，桌游目标。

I mean, goal, board game goal.

别提那个R开头的词。

Don't say the r word.

不行。

No.

我开玩笑的。

I'm just kidding.

是的。

Yes.

我的新目标是让熊猫出现在每一款游戏中。

My new goal is to get pandas into every game ever made.

不。

No.

我开玩笑的。

I'm just kidding.

这永远不会发生。

That's never gonna happen.

我们有一个短名单。

We have a shortlist.

我们会处理的。

We'll work on it.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

会没事的。

It'll be fine.

所以这涉及了很多不同的游戏和很多需要思考的事情。

So that was a lot of different games and a lot of different things to think about.

如果你对2026年的桌游目标有任何想法，请在评论区留下，我们非常乐意讨论并了解你的想法。

Maybe if you have any board game goals of 2026, please leave them in the comments, and we would love to discuss it and hear all about it.

现在来看我们的游戏列表，

Now for our game list,

我们

we

主题略有不同，非常相似但有些许差异。

have slightly different topics, very similar but slightly different.

这很有争议。

It's controversial.

因为关于如何定义什么才算合格，我们的说法本身就存在争议。

Because it's controversial how we're how we're saying what qualifies, I'd say.

是的。

Yeah.

这非常正确，因为我的列表是五款漂亮的五欧元游戏。

That is very true because my list is five euro games that are pretty.

但我的游戏不一定很重。

Now but mine is not necessarily heavy.

嗯。

Mhmm.

而你的列表是五款不难看的重型欧元游戏。

And then your list is five heavy euro games that are not ugly.

我喜欢这个区别。

I like this distinction.

是的。

Yes.

因为当你问我们想聊什么的时候？

Because when you asked us, what do you wanna talk about?

你希望你的列表是什么样的？

What do you want your list to be?

我们一开始是从重度欧式游戏开始的。

We're like, I started with heavy euro games.

然后克里斯蒂娜说，那前五名漂亮的欧式游戏呢？

Then Christina was like, what about top five pretty euro game?

但当我们开始讨论时，我们发现一直在争论什么才算欧式游戏。

But then when we started discussing, we're like, we would just kept arguing over what's a euro game constantly.

有点激动了。

Got a little heated.

是啊。

Yeah.

比如这个游戏，我觉得它根本不是欧式游戏。

Like, this game, I'm like, it's not a euro game.

但她却说，这明明就是欧式游戏。

And she's like, it is a euro game.

我当时就想，什么是德式游戏？

And I was like, what's a euro game?

过了一会儿，我们就干脆说成是重策略游戏吧。

And then after a while, let's just say heavy game.

但因为你之前根据我们的列表做了一个德式游戏清单

But then because you did a euro game list off of our

我们最初

initial We're

好吧。

like, okay.

我们可以让我们的列表真正符合德式游戏的标准。

We can make ours legitimately euro.

我还得去维基百科查一下什么是德式游戏。

Did have to go to Wikipedia to look up what is a euro game.

德式游戏。

Euro game.

对吧？

Right?

这是一个缩写，但如果不同的人使用这个缩写，我们可能都有稍微不同的定义。

It's a shorthand for something, but if people are shorthanding it and there's different people, we could all have slightly different definitions.

对吧？

Right?

我知道它是什么意思，但我得去维基百科查一下，然后告诉克里斯蒂娜，维基百科是怎么说的。

I know what it means, but I had to go to Wikipedia to talk to Christina and say, this is what Wikipedia says.

因为她会先听维基百科的，而不是听我的。

Because she'll listen to Wikipedia before she listens to me.

嗯，

Well,

维基百科说，这是一种德国风格，也就是欧洲风格的游戏，所以才叫欧洲游戏。

Wikipedia says it's a German, aka Euro European style game, which is why it's a Euro.

间接的玩家互动，较少冲突或运气成分，没有玩家淘汰，提供多种得分方式，但不一定复杂，也不一定属于重策略游戏。

Indirect player interaction, less conflict or luck, no player elimination, provides multiple ways to score points and not necessarily well, not necessarily a heavy game.

不一定。

Not necessarily.

正确。

Correct.

不。

No.

德式游戏也可以是轻度的。

Euro games could be light as well.

嗯。

Mhmm.

所以我同意。

So I agree.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

而《卡坦岛》或现在所称的《卡坦》，可能是最成功的一款。

And Settlers of Catan or Catan right now as it's called, is probably the most successful one.

它直到1995年才推出。

And it only came out in 1995.

那已经是二十年前了。

And that was twenty years ago.

这听起来并不算久，但那确实是二十年前了。

That does not seem that long, but that was twenty years ago.

感觉好像很久了。

It seems very long.

不。

No.

不。

No.

等等。

Wait.

它是什么时候推出的？

When did it come out?

1995年。

1995.

三十年前。

Thirty years ago.

三十年。

Thirty years.

是的。

Yeah.

三十年前。

Thirty years ago.

天哪。

Oh my goodness.

你说得对。

You're right.

太疯狂了。

That's crazy.

因为现在是2026年，所以是31年。

'31 because it's 2026.

是的。

Yes.

现在是2026年。

It is 2026

各位，现在是现在。

now, everybody.

嗯。

Yeah.

哇。

Wow.

在桌游术语中，那是一段非常长的时间。

In board game terms, that's very long time.

那太久了。

That's ages.

又是一段很长的时间。

Ages again.

在一段时间里。

In a bunch of time.

嗯。

Mhmm.

是的。

Yeah.

所以我们而且它将会

So we And it's gonna

我们会讨论。

we'll we'll discuss.

但没错。

But yeah.

我的意思是，因为我们这是BGG播客，也就是桌游节奏播客，所以决定用BGG的复杂度评分来缩小我们的选择范围。

I mean, we decided because this is the BGG podcast, the Board Game Beat podcast, to go use the BGG heaviness rating in the way that we narrow down our list.

所以我们讨论的游戏，复杂度评分都在五分制中的3.25分或以上。

So we are talking about our games are all 3.25 or higher in the scale out of five heaviness.

所以

So

是的。

Yeah.

从BGG的重量评分系统来看，三分是中等复杂度。

So it technically on BG's weight scoring system, three is a medium.

但说实话，根本不存在五分的游戏，因为那意味着每个人都必须给它投五分。

But, I mean, there's no games that are five because it's just that means everyone has to vote a five for it.

所以3.25分其实更偏向于中等偏重的水平，你完全可以把这些游戏视为中等，但它们属于中等里较重的那一类。

So 3.25 is sort of more you you could definitely consider some of these medium, but they're on the heavier side of medium.

我同意你的说法。

I'll give that to you.

而且也很漂亮，不是丑陋的，这完全是主观的说法。

And also pretty, not ugly, very subjective terms.

是的。

Yes.

这是我们个人的观点。

This is our own personal views.

嗯。

So Mhmm.

是的。

Yeah.

但我们挑的这些，你没法反驳。

But the ones we picked are you can't argue.

它们都是很漂亮的游戏。

They're all pretty games.

绝对不丑。

Definitely not ugly.

所以就是这样。

So there's that.

就是这样。

There you go.

哦，那你对丑陋的欧式游戏是怎么定义的呢？

Oh, what's your definition of a ugly euro game, though?

哦，我的意思是，好吧。

Oh, I mean, okay.

哪些游戏是立刻被排除掉的，但我其实很喜欢？

What immediately was eliminated that I'd love?

我非常喜欢乌韦·罗森伯格的游戏，但我觉得那些都挺丑的。

I we I love an Uwe Rosenberg game, but all of those I would say are ugly.

newer 的，我真的很喜欢《黑森林》。

The newer, I really love Black Forest.

看看《黑森林》的封面，你会觉得：哇。

And you look at the cover of Black Forest, you're like, wow.

对于乌韦·罗森博格来说，这太不一样了。

So different for Uwe Rosenberg.

这是一幅美丽的森林景观，但打开后，你就会觉得，嗯，算了。

It's this beautiful forest view landscape, and you open it, it's like, nah.

这是我的新最爱的罗森博格游戏。

It's a new favorite Rosenberg game.

是的。

Yeah.

我们一开始就说，毕竟我们知道他所有的游戏都不好看，因为他根本没有一款漂亮的游戏。

We that was one of the first things we said was, well, we know all his games are out because he doesn't have a single pretty game.

所以在重型德式桌游这个类别里，至少在这一年。

So at least in the year in the heavy euro category.

我想我们过去在播客上和一些其他嘉宾也讨论过桌游的美学问题。

And I think we've discussed this in the past since on our podcast with some other guests about aesthetics of board games.

但我认为，对于某种类型的德式游戏，它们希望传达你将要体验的内容。

But I think for a certain type of euro game, they wanna signal what you're getting into.

对吧？

Right?

嗯。

Mhmm.

所以那种经典的里奥格兰德或乌韦·罗森伯格风格的游戏，看起来有点卡通化，而且非常单调。

So that sort of classic Rio Grande or Uwe Rosenberg look of those games, sort of cartoony and very beige.

你知道的？

You know?

那种风格在很多欧式游戏中都很常见，

That that is a lot of euro games,

会说，

would say,

或者我们称之为经典欧式游戏。

or classic euro games, we'll say.

嗯。

Mhmm.

我们之间立即想到的一个例子，正好与我们这里讨论的内容相反，就是《突变体》。

The one example we used immediately between us of, like, this is the opposite of what we're talking about here is Mutant.

那款游戏整体看起来非常棕色。

That game was like, it's it's very brown all around.

如果你把它摆出来，除非你特别喜欢欧式游戏，否则它在视觉上完全没有任何吸引力。

And it just like, if you lay it out, unless you're into euro games, there's like nothing visually appealing about that game.

但它是一款很棒的游戏。

But it's a it's a great game.

我也很喜欢它。

I love it too.

但这是我们这里列出的前五名游戏的综合代表例子。

But that was our example of the synthesis of our top five list here.

所以我们正试图这么做，因为我觉得，我们得为这个前五名列表增加点难度。

So that's what we're trying to do because I was like, we'll make it harder on ourselves for this top five list.

那些重量级但不丑陋的游戏。

The heavier games that are not ugly.

嗯。

Yeah.

你看。

There you

好了。

go.

嗯。

Uh-huh.

嗯。

Yeah.

我没有把我的列表排序。

I did not put my list in any order.

我不喜欢这么做。

I don't like doing that.

这对我来说太难了。

It's just way too hard for me.