读书会：一起来聊聊《哈姆奈特》

每当我们在书评中看到那本很棒的书时，人们都会填写这些问卷，我相信你们所有人也都有类似的经历，如果他们问我的话，我就会这么说。

And whenever we have that great thing at the book review by the book where people fill out these questionnaires, and I'm sure all of you too have like, if they ever ask me, this is what I'll say.

准备好我的总结发言了。

Ready for my closeouts.

可惜他们不会来问我。

Sadly, they're not gonna ask me.

但其中一个问题是：如果你可以邀请在世或已故的作家，你会选谁？

But one of them is if you had writers living or dead, who would you have?

我会选莎士比亚，可能还会加上斯蒂芬·格林布拉特来考考他，或者詹姆斯·夏皮罗。

And I would just have Shakespeare and maybe Stephen Greenblatt to quiz him or James Shapiro.

天啊。

Oh my god.

多么棒的晚宴啊。

What a dinner party.

关于它有太多问题了。

So many questions about it.

这以一种非常美妙的方式帮助完成了内容。

And this helps fill out in a really wonderful way.

我想从你这里为艾格尼丝这个角色稍作辩解。

I'd like to redeem this Agnes character a little bit from you.

我的意思是，我认为她一直以来在其他作品中被塑造成——你知道的——在莎士比亚遗嘱中获得次好床的那个人，这让她看起来像个累赘，似乎莎士比亚根本不爱她。

I mean, I think part of again, she's always been seen in other works as, you know, the recipient of the second best bed in the in Shakespeare's will, which made it seem like she was just a pain in the neck, and he didn't love her at all.

而在《莎翁情史》里，总是演他离家在外与格温妮丝·帕特洛偷情的情节。

And Shakespeare in love, it's always how he's away and sleeping with Gwyneth Paul Troud.

但这是...这是...

But this is this is

关于她如何可能帮助丈夫履行承诺的一个很好且有趣的解释。

a good and interesting explanation of how she might have helped her husband fulfill his promise.

书中有句精彩台词，可能是她兄弟巴塞洛缪对他说起她时讲的：'她遇见你时，你看起来完全不像她会爱上的人。'

There's a great line in there where somebody, maybe it's her brother Bartholomew, is talking to him about her and says, when she met you, you seem like such an unlikely man for her to fall in love with.

但她说：'你内心蕴含的东西比她见过的任何人都要丰富。'

But she said, you had more hidden inside you than anyone else she'd ever met.

所以她的直觉部分在于，她看出他拥有非凡的才智。

So part of the intuition is that she sees that he has a great mind.

在书中，正是她策划了一个小计谋，让他离开那个让他如此不快的家，去履行他的承诺，无论那会是什么。

And she's the one in the book who says who concocts a little trick for him to leave the house where he's been so unhappy and fulfill his promise, whatever it's gonna be.

这对她自己的幸福也是巨大的牺牲。

And it great sacrifice to her own happiness too.

她深爱着他。

Like, loves him.

她并不想送他离开，但我想她能看出他的潜力，也看到了他正在遭受的痛苦。

She doesn't want to send him away, but I think can see the promise and also the way that he's suffering.

在书中，她也是文盲或几乎不识字，当时很多女性都是如此。

She's also she's illiterate or she's barely literate in the book as a lot of women were then.

关于莎士比亚的一大疑问，我认为，以他非凡的才智、写作能力和极高的文化素养，娶一个没有受过教育的人为妻是怎样的体验？

And one of the big question marks again over Shakespeare, I think, is with his extraordinary mind and writing ability and hyper hyper hyper literacy, what was it like for him to be married to someone who had no education?

这至少让她的故事在他的生命中占有一席之地。

And this at least gives her a place in his story Yeah.

这一点我很喜欢。

That I like.

我同意你对写作风格的看法，但我觉得这本书的风格对我很有效。

And I agree with you about the writing style, but I feel like with this, it worked for me.

不过我们得快速提一下，我记得床铺在当时几乎和房子一样昂贵。

We should also say though really quickly, I believe that the bed thing, that beds were about as expensive as houses.

对吧？

Right?

所以我们都觉得，那个撇号是怎么回事？

And so I think we all are like, well, apostropheptic, what's that about?

你知道，他为什么只给她

You know, why would he just give her

那张

the

旧

old

赌注 赌注。

bet bet.

而不是最佳赌注。

Rather than the best bet.

嗯，我确实非常

Well, I do really

了解到 她不是说过

learn that Doesn't she say

那么一点吗？

that little?

不是。

Doesn't.

她在接近结尾时提到了这件事。

She slips something in about it towards the end.

哦，这就是为什么她喜欢那个旧赌注。

Oh, that's why she like they liked the old bet.

她现在搬进了豪华的新房子，因为丈夫事业有成，他委派大女儿苏珊娜去购置大量新家具。

She's moved into, like, the fancy new house now that her husband is successful, and he deputizes their older daughter, Susanna, to buy a lot of new furniture.

然而奥法雷尔说，她母亲拒绝换掉她的床，声称这是她结婚时用的床，绝不更换。

And O'Farrell says her mother, however, refuses to give up her bed, saying it was the bed she was married in, and she will not have another.

于是那张更华丽的新床被安置在客房。

So the new grander bed is put in the room for guests.

即便如此我依然欣赏玛格娜·法拉尔斯的坚持——我绝不会让你得逞。

And I love that even then, Magna Farrals, I'm not gonna let you No.

别诋毁我的女孩艾格尼丝。

Drag my girl, Agnes.

珍，我很好奇你对艾格尼丝的看法。

Jen, I'm curious what you think about Agnes.

我们有人对艾格尼丝感受复杂，也有人真心喜欢她。

So we have someone who felt mixed, someone who really liked Agnes.

现在轮到你决定自己的感受了。

You are deciding about how do you feel.

我非常支持艾格尼丝。

I'm very pro Agnes.

我觉得这很有趣。

I think it was interesting.

我认为你用一种标准准确描述了她——未受过教育。

I think you described her accurately by one metric as uneducated.

但我觉得这本书中这位女性形象如此引人入胜且动人的部分在于，尽管她没有接受过传统书本教育也不识字，却拥有惊人的智慧与洞察力，那种情感、医学与自然的天赋贯穿了她和整部作品。

But I think part of what I find so compelling and moving about the portrait of this woman in this book is that while she doesn't have traditional book education and isn't literate, she is incredibly intelligent and wise and has this emotional and medical and natural intelligence that really infuses her and the whole book.

而且我认为玛吉·奥法瑞尔赋予了她非凡的人性光辉，她既是这个家庭跳动的心脏，也是这本书的灵魂所在。

And also, I think Maggie O'Farrell brings such incredible humanity to her and just the way that she is both the beating heart of this family and of this book.

从一开始我就完全被她吸引住了。

I was fully invested in her from the beginning.

此外，我觉得任何曾是个想象力过于丰富、喜欢在森林里玩耍编故事的女孩的人，都能在她身上找到共鸣，看到她以这种方式成为故事核心让我感到非常满足。

And also I think anyone who has been a girl who has maybe a little too much imagination and likes to go play in the woods and make up stories can really identify with her and seeing her really take center stage in this way I found really satisfying.

在初次阅读和为读书会重读之间，我的记忆只停留在艾格尼丝天生擅长与自然相处，像个生物学家。

Between first reading it and the reading for this book club, my memory was just that Agnes was preternaturally good at nature and her biologist.

我不记得她看起来有多么超自然了。

And I don't think I remember just how seemingly supernatural she was.

第二次阅读时，我对她如此神秘且超凡的特质感到震惊。

For me, reading it a second time, I was shocked by how mystical and otherworldly she was.

因为我原本以为她只是

Because I just thought she was

在我的记忆中。

in my memory.

我的

My

不过，她简直——

though, she's just-

但她还非常直觉敏锐，特别擅长理解他人动机。

But she's also super intuitive, and she's super good at understanding motivations.

记得吗，她在家里策划了几件事，说如果你这样对他，他就会这样回应，从而促成那样的结果。

Remember, she concocts a few things in the household by saying, if you do this with him, he'll respond this way, and thus this will happen.

记住，她对继母说，她最喜欢能反驳你的时刻。

Remember, says with her stepmother, she always likes it when she gets to contradict you.

所以你要告诉她你不想做某件其实你想做的事。

So you tell her you don't wanna do something that you do wanna do.

然后她就会说，我们应该做那件事。

And she'll be like, we should do that.

她还是个对周围人观察入微的高手。

She's also an incredible observer of everyone around her.

我想是因为她从小就被视为怪胎而不被接纳，无论是在由根本不懂她的继母抚养的家庭里，还是在村子里，她都与传统观念格格不入。

I think because she's been dismissed from a young age as strange and she doesn't fit in with the traditional ideas both in her own home where she is raised from a pretty young age by her stepmother who does not fundamentally does not understand her or by the people in the village.

但我特别喜欢那段情节：就在她与丈夫结婚搬进新家后，她花了大约一周时间默默观察。嗯。

But I really enjoy the part where she right after she and her husband get married and she moves into the house, she spends about a week just observing Mhmm.

观察家里的日常作息。

The routines of the house.

然后我记得没错的话，你是通过她婆婆——莎士比亚母亲的视角看到，大约一周后，她不再需要每天早上吩咐女仆们取面团了。

And then I think you're I believe if I'm remembering correctly, you're seeing this through the eyes of her mother-in-law, Shakespeare's mother, who notices that after about a week, she doesn't have to tell the servant girls to get the dough out every morning.

它就在那里。

It's just there.

原本放在非常不便位置的东西，被移到了一个合理得多的地方。

And something that had been in a place that was really inconvenient has been moved to a place that makes so much more sense.

你可以称之为巫术或魔法，或者说艾格尼丝拥有这种非凡的能力，能关注周围的人和世界——我认为她丈夫同样具备这种特质，他被视为对人类境况的卓越观察者。

I think you could call it witchy and magical, or you could call it that she Agnes has this great ability to pay attention to the people and the world around her, which is something that I think is also true of her husband who is seen as this incredible observer of the human condition.

她还很快察觉到了莎士比亚与他父亲之间的关系。

She also clocks the relationship between Shakespeare and his father pretty quickly.

我觉得有趣的一点是，整个伟人理论——比如毕加索这类把女性当作配饰和缪斯的人——尽管玛吉基本上是凭空塑造了艾格尼丝这个形象，因为根本不可能...

And I one thing I think is interesting, the whole great man theory that if you look at someone like Picasso or these people who who used women as accessories and muses, but even though Maggie is making this out of whole cloth, essentially, this portrait of Agnes, because there's just no way.

几乎没有什么...确实...

There's so little there's almost no Yeah.

艾格尼丝作为一个天生情感智慧的人，在不同境遇下本可能成为学者、医生或任何角色，这种设定让人更欣赏莎士比亚——他寻找的是平等伴侣，至少是能理解他梦想并同行的人，而非仅是生育工具。

The idea that Agnes would be an innately, emotionally intelligent person who under different circumstances could have been a scholar, could have been a doctor, could have been all kinds of things, makes you like the idea of Shakespeare more that he was looking for someone who was an equal or at least someone who could see his dreams and join him on that journey rather than just like a breed mare.

关于莎士比亚，我能再说一点吗？

I mean, can I say one more thing about Shakespeare?

大家都指出，《哈姆雷特》这部剧是在哈姆雷特去世仅几年后创作的。

What everyone has pointed out is that the play Hamlet was written just a couple years after Hamlet died.

正如Jen提到的，哈姆雷特的名字基本上与Hamlet相同。

And as Jen mentioned, Hamlet was essentially the same name as Hamlet.

书中最感人的部分在结尾处，当艾格尼丝去看那部剧时，她看到了...

And there's really moving the very end of the book when Agnes goes to see the play and sees how

史上第一部戏剧。

The first ever play.

莎士比亚将他的悲痛倾注在这部戏剧中。

Shakespeare has put his grief into this play.

但我也想说的是，在《哈姆雷特》之后，我们又有了《李尔王》和《麦克白》，这两部作品呈现了我所见过的最令人心碎的父母丧子场景。

But also I wanna say after Hamlet was written, we had King Lear and we had Macbeth, which have two of the most shattering scenes of parents dealing with the deaths of their children as I've ever seen.

其中《李尔王》中有一幕，年迈的李尔王抱着死去的科迪莉亚恸哭。

And one of them in King Lear, it's when King Lear sits with dead Cordelia on his lap, sobbing toward the end of his life.

而在《麦克白》里，当麦克德夫得知全家遇害时，他说出了那句台词：‘我所有可爱的孩子们啊，一个不剩。’

And then in Macbeth, when Macduff, when his children are all killed, and there's that line where he said he hears that all his family has been slaughtered, and he says, all my pretty ones, all.

那是另一个充满毁灭性情感的场景。

And that's another scene of just devastating emotion.

我们将继续我们的对话，但首先，我们需要短暂休息一下。

We're gonna continue with our conversation, but first, we should take a quick break.

嘿。

Hey.

我是《纽约时报》烹饪专栏的沃恩·布雷兰。

It's Vaughn Breland from New York Times Cooking.

寒冷天气已至，虽然我不是气象学家，但我觉得天气预报显示你应该和我们一起烘焙。

Colder weather is here, and I'm no meteorologist, but I think the forecast says you should bake with us.

几乎任何蛋糕都能变成'再来一块'蛋糕。

Almost any cake can be turned into a one more cake.

它就像可颂面包，但更酥脆、层次更分明。

It's like a croissant, but, like, even more crunch and flake.

天啊。

Oh my god.

我能吃下50亿个这样的。

I can eat 5,000,000,000 of these.

那是块布朗尼。

That was a brownie.

它们看起来巧克力味十足，非常美味。

They look so chocolatey and delicious.

别害怕。

Don't be afraid.

这个容错率很高。

This is so forgiving.

这些是豪华曲奇。

These are deluxe cookies.

你们想尝尝这个吗？

Do you guys wanna try this?

这个季节与《纽约时报》烹饪频道一起烘焙吧。

Bake with New York Times cooking this season.

所有食谱均可在nytcooking.com上找到。

Find all the recipes at nytcooking.com.

立即订阅享受限时优惠。

Subscribe now for a limited time offer.

我们回来了。

And we're back.

这里是书评播客节目。

This is the book review podcast.

我是MJ·富兰克林。

I'm MJ Franklin.

我与里奥·格林布拉特、莎拉·莱尔和珍·哈兰一起，我们将讨论玛吉·奥法雷尔的《哈姆奈特》。

I'm with Leo Greenblatt, Sarah Lyle, and Jen Harlan, and we're discussing Hamnet by Maggie O'Farrell.

在回到演播室的讨论前，我想分享一些读者评论。

Before we jump back to our conversation in the studio, I wanted to share some reader comments.

我们在《纽约时报》头条书友会专栏刊登了一篇文章，与书评一起阅读玛吉·奥法雷尔的《哈姆奈特》。

We have an article up on the New York Times headline book club, Read Hamnet by Maggie O'Farrell with the book review.

我们一直在与全球读者讨论这部小说，克莱尔。

We've been talking about the novel with readers across the world, Claire.

这里有一些深思熟虑的评论我想分享给大家。

Here are a few thoughtful comments I wanted to pass along.

来自科罗拉多州的蒂芙尼写道：我刚读完这本书，就忍不住一直谈论和思考它。

Tiffany from Colorado writes, I just finished reading this book and I can't stop talking and thinking about it.

我原本对莎士比亚没什么兴趣，但奥法雷尔生动地描绘了他及其家庭的缤纷生活，读起来宛如纯粹的诗篇。

I've never had much interest in Shakespeare, but O'Farrell renders such a colorful, lively portrait of his life and family, and it felt like pure poetry.

来自纽约的霍华德写道：这是我读过的最文笔优美的书籍之一。

Howard, from New York, writes: One of the most beautifully written books I've ever read.

既美丽动人又令人心碎，带着温暖而苦涩的结局。

Both beautiful and devastatingly sad with a warm bittersweet ending.

堪称小说中运用细节描绘场景的典范教程。

A masterclass on the use of detail to paint a picture in a novel.

肯塔基州的凯特写道：虽然哈姆奈特的死亡令人痛心，但作者对哈瑟维的关注为这本书增添了令人耳目一新的原始女性主义色彩。

Kate from Kentucky writes, Though the death of Hamnet was wrenching, the author's focus on Hathaway gave the book a refreshingly proto feminist twist.

这本书依然是我最喜欢的法雷尔作品之一。

It remains among my favorites of Farrell's books.

华盛顿的琳达留下了关于这本书和她个人失去经历的非常美丽动人的评论。

And then Linda from Washington left a really beautiful and moving comment about this book and her own experience of loss.

篇幅较长且发人深省，请访问我们的网站查看完整评论，但我想朗读其中一段：'我反复阅读《哈姆奈特》的章节，以理解我们所经历的苦难。'

It's longer and really thought so visit us online to see the full comment but I did want to read one portion and it is, I returned to passages from Hamnet to understand what we've survived.

这些文字持续激励我接纳生活中如影随形的层层哀伤。

They continue to encourage me to welcome the layers of grief I live with.

玛吉·奥法雷尔在这部关于父母之爱与悲痛的杰作中，帮助我和丈夫直面悲痛，从中学习，并允许它改变我们。

Maggie O'Farrow, in this masterpiece on parental love and sorrow, has helped my husband and I turn toward our grief, learning from it, and allowing it to change us.

这只是琳达一段非常深刻的评论。

So that was just a really thoughtful comment from Linda.

所有这些评论都极具洞察力且感人至深。

And all of these comments are really, really insightful and moving.

快去看看吧。

So go check that out.

我要向本月与我们共读的所有人表示衷心感谢。

I just wanna say a big thank you to everyone who has read with us this month.

欢迎在线继续讨论。

Continue the conversation online.

现在我们将回到演播室的对话中。

Now we're gonna jump back into our conversation in the studio.

莎拉，莎士比亚及其作品对你阅读《哈姆奈特》产生了什么影响？

Sarah, how has Shakespeare and his work impacted your reading of Hamnet?

《哈姆奈特》是否改变了你对莎士比亚任何作品的看法？

And has Hamnet changed how you think of any of Shakespeare's works?

你把时间线摆在我们面前，我

You put that chronology in front of us, I

我认为这非常罕见——珍你可能比我更清楚——在莎士比亚戏剧中几乎找不到他个人生活的影子。

think I think it's so and you might know this better than me, Jen, but I think it's very rare that there's anything in Shakespeare's life that you see come out in his plays.

我们无法从中找到自传元素，因为我们对他的生平知之甚少。

You can't find the autobiography in them because we know so little about his life.

这是一次尝试，在他生命中寻找一个毁灭性的时刻，并用它来解释他某些剧作中的一些情节。

And this is an effort to find a devastating moment in his life and make it explain some things in some of the plays.

是的。

Yeah.

对我来说正是如此。

And that's what it did for me.

它并没有让我重新思考莎士比亚。

It didn't make me rethink Shakespeare.

那么有两点。

So two things.

其一，书中并未强调这一点，但那些最直接说明这是如何影响莎士比亚、哈姆雷特如何诞生的部分，恰恰是我最不喜欢的部分，因为我完全被安妮娅本人的故事所吸引。

One is for me, the parts and the book doesn't stress this, but the parts in the book that most directly say this is what impacted Shakespeare, this is how Hamlet came to be, were some of my least favorite parts just because I was so hooked by and captured by Anya's herself.

我喜欢这本书甚至没有提及莎士比亚的名字。

And I liked that this book didn't even name Shakespeare.

我喜欢他与读者保持距离，让你能沉浸在这种体验中，深入感受这种内心世界。

And I like that he's kept at a distance and you just get to sit in this experience and sit in this interiority.

但正是他将这段经历带到了外界，并试图赋予它意义。

But he's the one who took the experience to the outside world and tried to make it into something meaningful.

我认为，这正是那部分最动人的地方。

And that's what's so moving about that part of it, I think.

我觉得玛吉·奥法罗对安雅的处理也是如此。

And I think that's what Maggie O'Farrow is doing with Anya's.

她将这份悲痛以不同的方式、面向不同的观众、通过不同的媒介，为我们呈现得如此动人。

She has taken this grief and made it so moving for us in a different way with a different audience in a different medium.

所以我非常喜欢这一点。

So I love that.

那么我想请教在座的莎士比亚学者们一个问题。

And then I guess my question for the Shakespearean scholars in the room.

只有一个问题。

Were there There's just one.

我不敢自称是莎士比亚学者。

I wouldn't call myself a Shakespearean scholar.

有没有莎士比亚作品中的彩蛋、引用或元素，让你觉得‘啊，我明白玛吉在这里的用意了’？

Were were there Easter eggs or quotes or things from Shakespeare that you're like, oh, I see what Maggie's doing here.

她是在即兴发挥这句台词。

She's riffing on this line.

我不确定是否涉及具体台词。

I don't know if that it was specific lines.

但我确实认为，双胞胎以及身份互换或隐藏身份的概念在莎士比亚作品中经常出现。

I do think both the idea of twins and of swapping identities or hiding your identity is something that comes up a lot in Shakespeare.

最著名的例子可能是《第十二夜》中的薇奥拉和塞巴斯蒂安这对双胞胎，他们最终都伪装成异性。

Probably the most famous example is Viola and Sebastian in Twelfth Night who are twins who then both end up disguising themselves as their opposite genders.

在那部剧中，这成为了一种喜剧手法。

And in that play, it is a a vehicle for comedy.

另外，正如莎拉提到的，关于鬼魂的概念——哈姆雷特、麦克白和李尔王这些剧作的共同点就是都有鬼魂出现，它们像是悲伤在物质或形而上层面的具现。

Also, the idea of, like Sarah mentioned, of ghosts and something else that Hamlet and Macbeth and King Lear all have in common to is ghosts appear in all of those plays as the sort of physical or metaphysical manifestation of grief.

森林在他许多剧作中也极为重要，而书中艾格尼丝来自的那片树林几乎成为了一个独立角色。

Forests also very important in a lot of his plays and that the woods where Agnes comes from is almost a character in this book.

还有几个小场景，比如剧作家威廉·莎士比亚第一次启程前往伦敦时与艾格尼丝告别，却又真的不想离开。

And there's a few little like the scene where the playwright William Shakespeare is leaving for London for the first time and is saying goodbye to Agnes, but then doesn't really wanna leave.

他没事的。

He's okay.

我必须走了。

I have to leave.

不。

No.

我不会走的。

I won't leave.

这让我想起了《罗密欧与朱丽叶》中婚礼次日清晨的场景，他们当时也是这样。

Really reminded me of the morning after the wedding scene in Romeo and Juliet where they're doing this.

就像那种'你先挂电话'的推让。

It's like that you hang up first.

不。

No.

你先挂。

You hang up first.

不。

No.

你走。

You leave.

好吧。

Okay.

不。

No.

别走。

Don't leave.

不。

No.

我必须走了。

I have to leave.

不。

No.

别走。

Don't leave.

这本书中最令我感到美丽而富有共鸣的部分，其实并非来自任何一部戏剧。

The thing that I found most beautiful and most powerful as a resonance in this book is actually not from one of the plays.

在书的结尾处，阿格尼丝发现她那在丧子之痛中一直疏离的丈夫——她曾因对方在悲痛中看似抛弃自己而愤怒——实际上一直在进行一种炼金术般的行为：将丧子之痛转化为这部绝美的戏剧。

The ending of the book where you find Agnes discovers that her husband who has been distant as they've been moving through this grief, and she's been really angry that he has she feels basically abandoned her in this grief has in fact been performing this sort of act of alchemy by taking the loss of their son and turning it into this beautiful play.

他还在剧中让哈姆奈特（即哈姆雷特）——他们的儿子——成为幸存者，而自己则扮演幽灵。

And he also in the play casts Hamnet or Hamlet, their son, as the one who survives and himself as the ghost.

通过这种方式，他实现了每个失去孩子的父母都渴望做到的事：交换位置，由自己来承受死亡。

And in that way has done what every parent who loses a child wishes they could do, to swap places and take the death himself.

她还目睹了这一幕：她的丈夫扮演幽灵，却不知怎的让舞台上的哈姆雷特这个角色拥有了与哈姆雷特如出一辙的举止样貌，以此方式让他重获新生。

And also she watches this scene where her husband is the ghost, and he has somehow made this character Hamlet on stage have the mannerisms and the appearance of Hamlet, and he's brought him back to life that way.

而且在这

And also in this

以这种方式让他永远活在世上，使他得以重生并将永生不朽。

way has preserved him for life forever, has made it so that he will live again and will continue to live forever.

而我最喜欢的莎士比亚十四行诗，第十八首，结尾写道：'只要人类能呼吸，眼睛能看见，这诗就长存，并赐予你生命。'

And what my probably favorite sonnet of Shakespeare's, which is sonnet 18, ends with the line, so long as men can breathe or eyes can see, so long lives this and this gives life to thee.

对我来说，这正是这部戏剧和这本书的魔力所在。

And that to me is the magic of the play and the magic of this book.

在某种程度上，这是他所能做的最有力、最神奇的事情——他拥有这份天赋，并用它让他们的儿子永生。

And in some way is the most powerful and magical thing that he could have done is he has this gift, and he has used that it to make their son live forever.

我觉得这很有趣，因为我们仍在讨论男性如何难以表达自己及其情感，尤其是那些非常强烈的情感。

I think it's interesting because we still talk about how men may struggle to express themselves and their emotions, especially the really big emotions.

在那个场景中，他正试图赶回去，收到一封信说朱迪斯可能即将离世，而他无法及时赶回去见她。

And the scene where he's trying to get back, he's this letter has made its way to him saying that Judith, in fact, is probably about to die and that and that he will not make it back in time for her.

他谈到自己如何停下脚步，看到一个牵着马或牛的女孩，他愤怒至极。

And he talks about how he stops and he sees a girl with a horse, I think, or a cow, and he's so angry.

他想把她推下悬崖，想把树上所有的花朵都扯下来，因为他基本上已经失去理智了。

He wants to shove her off the cliff, and he wants to pluck every blossom from the trees cause he's losing his mind, basically.

这种想法，人们怎么可能就这样继续他们的日常生活，而

This idea that how could people just be going about their normal day and their normal And

然后你意识到，艾格尼丝也意识到，这就是他倾注所有那些混乱而可怕情绪的地方——他把它们都放进了他的作品里。

then you realize and Agnes realizes that this is where he has put all of those messy and terrible emotions that have overwhelmed him, he's put it into his work.

而这部作品对她来说如此遥远，因为她没有和他一起搬到伦敦。

And the work is so remote to her because she has not moved to London with him.

他们基本上没有住在一起。

They're generally not living together.

是啊。

Yeah.

所以她觉得他只是想回到他在伦敦的风流生活

So so she feels that he just wants to get back to his sexy life in London

嗯，还有那个

Well, there's also that

悲伤。

grieving.

然后她明白了

Then she sees that

他们有着这个共同点

they have this thing in common.

他确实理解，现在他们至少能重新建立一些情感上的联系

He does understand, and now they can at least find some emotional contact with each other again.

这太美好了

It's so beautiful.

如果她能原谅他，也能与他重新建立联系

If she can forgive him and she can also reconnect with him.

她之前从未去过伦敦

She has never been to London before.

而且我认为她在脑海中臆想出了丈夫在那里的生活景象

And she I think she has concocted this vision in her head of what she thinks her husband's life is like there.

他是一位非常成功的剧作家

He's a very successful playwright.

他赚了这么多钱。

He's making all this money.

人们都知道他是谁。

People know who he is.

所以她带着这样的期待来到这里。

And so she shows up expecting to find this.

而且在她去之前不久，她就有种感觉，认为他一直在和其他女人睡觉。

And she has this sense not that long before she goes there that he has been sleeping with other women.

他对她不忠。

He hasn't been faithful to her.

嗯，当他在那里时，她

Well, while he's there She

把镯子埋了，因为它被其他女人玷污了。

buries the bracelet because it's tainted by other women.

所以她心里有个想法，觉得这像是种诱惑

So she has this idea of this like glamoury

他很可能有。

He probably has.

他在伦敦逍遥快活，而我却在家为我们的儿子哀悼。

He's lifting it up in London while I'm at home grieving our son.

然后她到了那里，发现了他一直居住的地方。

And then she gets there and finds where he's been living.

那基本上就是这样的，像个修士的住处。

And it's basically this, like Like a monk.

修士的陋室。

Monk's hovel.

而这部作品产生的一切，他倾注了所有的情感和精力在这部戏剧中，所有从中获得的回报实际上都回流给了他的家庭，用于建造这座带花园的新房子，一个她希望能在此找到平静并茁壮成长的地方。

And that everything that has come out of this work, he has been pouring all of his emotion, all of his energy into this play, and that everything that comes out of that has actually been going back to his family and to creating this new house with this garden, this place where she can hopefully be at peace and thrive.

这本书真正吸引我的一点，是玛吉·奥法雷尔对二元性的巧妙运用，既体现在角色间对彼此的预设上，也体现在叙事节奏的处理上。

Well, was one of the things I was really interested in with this book is just the way that Maggie O'Farrell plays with duality, both in assumptions that the characters have about each other, but then also with storytelling beats.

于是我开始记录书中出现的各种对应关系。

And so I just started writing things down of pairs in the book.

我们有双胞胎哈姆内特和朱迪思。

We have Hamnet and Judith, the twins.

我们看到了莎士比亚和他父亲所展现的不同父亲形象。

We have different portraits of fatherhood with Shakespeare and his father.

我们看到了安妮雅与她的母亲、继母所展现的不同母亲形象，她既有生母也有继母。

We have different portraits of motherhood with Anya's and her mother, stepmother, but then she has a birth mother and a stepmother.

所以这里还存在一种双重性——一位婆婆。

So then there's also a duality A mother-in-law.

以及一位岳母。

And a mother-in-law.

我们有哈姆内特与哈姆雷特。

We have Hamnet and Hamlet.

我们还有

We have

甚至连房子都像是镜像对称的。

There even the house is like on a mirror.

这里有莎士比亚父母的房子，然后莎士比亚和阿格尼丝的房子建在旁边的小巷里，这种双重性就体现出来了

You have Shakespeare's parents' house, and then Shakespeare and Agnes's house is built in the alley next door, and you have this duality there So

对我来说，第一次读这本书时，我整个人神经紧绷，完全沉浸在感受中

for me, while reading, the first time I read this book, I was just a raw ball of nerves, just feeling, feeling, feeling.

而第二次阅读时，我发现自己能注意到许多具体的写作技巧

And then the second time I read it, I felt like I was able to notice a lot of specific technical things.

我还注意到很多情节都保持着距离感

I was also noticing how so much is at a distance.

我们在真正见到安雅之前，就先听到了关于她的种种传闻

We hear about the assumptions of Anya's before we actually meet her.

在见到莎士比亚和他父亲之前，我们就已听闻关于他们的种种说法

We hear about the theory of who Shakespeare is and this father is before we meet him.

不过我在想，有哪些叙事手法特别让你印象深刻吗？

I'm wondering though, are there storytelling decisions that really stood out to you?

不仅是故事本身，在讲述方式上有什么特别突出的地方？

Not just the story itself, but in the telling, what stood out?

我是粉丝，我知道并非人人都是。

I am a fan, and I know that not everyone was.

我喜欢那段跳转到跳蚤视角的插曲。

I love the interlude where we jump to the flea.

哦，不。

Oh, no.

不。

No.

我觉得那太棒了。

I thought that was fantastic.

想想那是关于我们的。

Think it's about us.

在四百五十页左右，我们突然拉远视角，来到威尼斯穆拉诺岛，看到一位玻璃匠在实验室里遭遇严重事故，把自己烧伤了。

It's forty hundred and fifty pages in where all of a sudden we zoom out, and we're on the Island Of Murano in Venice with this glassmaker who just has a bad accident in the glass lab, burns himself.

而这正是整个事件的起因。

And that is the impetus for this entire thing.

故事从这里展开，来到亚历山大港的一个船舱男孩身边，他来自马恩岛。

And it travels from there to this cabin boy in Alexandria, who's a boy from the Isle Of Man.

男孩遇到了一只猴子。

Who meets monkey.

男孩遇到了一只猴子。

Who meets a monkey.

猴子和男孩都身处不应在的地方。

The monkey and the boy are both not where they should be.

他们都是孤独的个体，却在某个瞬间找到了彼此。

They're both these two lonely figures who find each other in a moment.

猴子紧紧依附着他。

The monkey clings to him.

这是段美妙的小小联结，只不过有三只跳蚤跳了下来。

It's this beautiful little connection, except three fleas jump off.

我想他用靴子踩死了一只。

He crushes one with his boot, I think.

但我看到上面有几道痕迹。

But I'm seeing a few runs on it.

是啊。

Yeah.

不是猴子。

Not the monkey.

是跳蚤。

The flea.

不过猴子没事，猴子好好的。

The monkey the monkey's fine, though.

猴子基本毫发无损地活下来了。

The monkey survives largely unscathed.

没错。

Yeah.

所以我们更担心它的主人。

So we have concerns about his owner.

是的。

Yes.

猴子是《海底总动员》里的多莉。

Monkey was this is Dory the Explorer.

我知道。

I know.

一只穿靴子的猴子。

A monkey in boots.

但你看到一只跳蚤，我想，跳进了他的头发，然后又跳到了酒馆里一个男人身上，一个客栈老板。

But you see the one flea, I think, jumps into his hair and then onto a man at a tavern, an innkeeper.

而另一只命运般地回到了船上。

And the other one fatefully goes back to the boat.

这就像电影《恐怖地带》里的猴子。

And that is it is like the monkey in the movie Outbreak.

这就是瘟疫最终如何传播到安格尔的。

That's how the plague eventually gets to anger.

我是说，他们基本上谈到了伦敦的瘟疫季节，以及威廉如何因为所有这些瘟疫而不得不中断工作。

I mean, they talk about essentially plague season in London and how intermittently William will be done with work because he'll have to take a break because of all these plagues.

但这种具体的溯源方式，我觉得非常有趣，因为你被如此封闭

But this specific way of tracing it back, I thought, was such an interesting because you're so enclosed

嗯。

Mhmm.

在这个房子的世界里，基本上，因为伦敦，我们对伦敦了解得并不多。

In the world of this house, essentially, because London, we don't get very much of London.

但突然间，你就全球化了。

But then all of a sudden, you're global.

你的视野被拉得很远很远。

You're way zoomed out.

那个从屋内到全球的镜头切换让我想到，总的来说，这本书的叙事视角真是天马行空。

That sweep from the inside the house to global made me think of just how, in general, the narrative perspective of this book is all over the place.

你刚和哈姆奈特单独在街上，转眼又和安雅一起看蜜蜂，接着又跟着苏珊娜进门，她都不确定人们在哪。

You're with Hamnet alone in the street, then you're with Anya's looking at the bees, then you're with Susannah who walks in and isn't sure where people are.

你不断变换视角的方式让我感到意外，因为我原本坚定地认为这只是安妮娅的故事。

You're constantly shifting perspective in a way that I forgot because I so firmly thought that this was just Anya's story.

重读时我才意识到，等等。

And then reading it again, I was like, wait.

我们在视角和时间处理上做了非常引人入胜的尝试。

We're doing really fascinating things with perspective and with time.

我认为她这次在节奏把控上堪称大师级水准。

I think her pacing is just masterful on this reading.

开篇时我感觉自己像在读一本灾难惊悚小说。

I felt like I was reading a disaster thriller at the beginning.

这是一连串的悲剧性误会。

It's tragedy of errors.

没错。

Yeah.

就像你目睹着每一分钟每一天，远远就能看到车辆即将相撞的轨迹。

You're just like watching every minute and every day, and you can see the cars approaching from a great distance about to crash into each other.

你看着这个孩子四处奔跑。

And you're watching this kid run around.

而且我认为，她还非常有效地让你从一开始就喜欢上这个孩子，通过一些细节，比如你很快就能了解到他有多爱他的妹妹，以及他有多么心不在焉。

And she also, I think, does this really effective job of making you really fall in love with this kid from the beginning, just from a little bit, talking about how you learn very quickly how much he loves his sister, how distracted he is.

他很顽皮。

He's playful.

他很调皮。

He's cheeky.

他很淘气。

He's mischievous.

所有这些

All those

他具备的特质。

things that he has.

他是个才华横溢的学者。

He's a brilliant scholar.

他喜欢小猫。

He loves kittens.

还有一句她描述他时我很喜欢的话。

There's also this line I love when she's describing him.

她说，'他有一种倾向，会脱离周围真实可触的世界，进入另一个地方。'

She says, he has a tendency to slip the bounds of the real tangible world around him and enter another place.

嗯。

Mhmm.

这一点我既喜欢他，也觉得这非常象征他父母双方的特质。

Which I love both about him, but also is so emblematic of both of his parents.

对他父亲而言，就是他突破现实界限，在游戏中构想出这些不可思议的世界。

For his father, that's he slips the bounds of reality and dreams up these incredible worlds in his play.

而艾格尼丝也在某种程度上以这种方式不受约束，或者以一种神秘而有趣的方式与我们之外的世界保持联系。

And Agnes also is sort of untethered in this way or has contact with a world beyond our own in a way that is uncanny and interesting.

我也有句想引用的台词，'我认为哈姆奈特的形象如此引人共鸣，因为他从一开始就是个如此典型的男孩。'

I had a quote that I wanted to read too, which is, I think the portrait of Hamnet is so relatable because he's such a typical young boy from the first.

这就是这本书的开篇方式。

And this is how the book opens.

一个男孩正从楼梯上走下来。

A boy is coming down a flight of stairs.

通道很窄，而且曲折回旋。

The passage is narrow and twists back on itself.

他慢慢地迈着每一步，沿着墙壁滑行，靴子每踏一级台阶都发出沉闷的声响。

He takes each step slowly, sliding himself along the wall, his boots meeting each tread with a thud.

在接近底部时，他停顿片刻，回头看了看自己走过的路。

Near the bottom, he pauses for a moment, looking back at the way he's come.

然后，突然下定决心，他像往常一样跃过了最后三级台阶。

Then, suddenly resolute, he leaps the final three stairs, as is his habit.

落地时他绊了一下，双膝跪在了石板地上。

He stumbles as he lands, falling to his knees on the flagstone floor.

我认识这个11岁男孩的画像，他浑身充满活力。

I know this portrait of a young 11 year old boy who's just like energy.

纯粹的能量，就像蹦蹦跳跳，就像他移动的方式。

Just energy and it's like skipping and it's like the way he moves.

感觉如此有共鸣。

It feels so relatable.

然后因为我们能感受到他，因为我们了解他，对读者而言，我认为他的失去是如此

And then because we feel him, because we know him, his loss for the reader, I think, is so

令人心碎。

Devastating.

还有

Are

我们有没有漏掉什么你想提到的其他事情？

there any other things that we haven't gotten to that you wanna mention?

有个小细节，你刚才提到这让你想起莎士比亚的哪些作品。

Tiny little thing where you were talking about what things in Shakes this remind me of.

这可能甚至都不准确。

This isn't maybe even right.

但在书中，安雅那个讨厌的继母叫琼。

But in the book, Anya's icky stepmother is called Joan.

我一直在想，《冬天的故事》里是不是有提到油腻的琼在刮锅底？

And I kept thinking, is it in A Winter's Tale, the thing where they talk about greasy Joan does peel the pot?

我总把那个恶心的继母想象成浑身油腻、正在刮锅的样子。

I kept thinking of the yucky stepmother is all greasy and peeling a pot.

我还没读过《冬天的故事》。

I haven't read winter's tale.

我需要回头去读一下。

I need to go back.

这也是我问莎士比亚相关问题的部分原因。

That's partially why I was asking about Shakespeare's.

我当时就想，我想知道这些彩蛋。

I was like, I wanna know the Easter eggs.

我想知道这些关联。

I wanna know the connections.

所以我的阅读

And so my reading

最令人抓狂的是我们渴望了解更多，却很难将作品与生活对应起来。

I what's so maddening is we wish we knew more and it's so hard to match the work to the life.

因此，我认为这种悲伤的救赎在于——正如我们之前所说——将其转化为永恒的艺术作品，超越个人经历，让世人永远传颂观赏。

And so again, I think the redemption for this kind of grief is if you can put it into, as we were saying before, into a permanent work of art that transcends your own experience that people will read and watch forever.

这真的非常非常美。

It's really, really beautiful.

一

One

有一个场景再次深深触动了我——这次重读时，无论是哈姆奈特之死的整体描写，还是紧随其后的场景，都如此直击脏腑、残酷无情，毫不回避地展现了死于这种可怕疾病的真实景象。

scene that really again, I was very moved again on this reading both by the whole description of Hamnet's death and the immediate aftermath of that, which is so visceral and gruesome and unflinching in its portrayal of what it was like to die of this horrible disease.

但另一个真正击垮我的时刻是后来朱迪思康复时。

But another moment that really broke me is later when Judith has recovered.

她问母亲有没有一个词专门形容失去双胞胎的双胞胎。

And she asks her mom if there is a word for someone who was a twin and who lost their twin.

因为如果你失去配偶，你会被称为寡妇或鳏夫，但对于失去兄弟姐妹的人呢？

Because if you lose your spouse, you're a widow or a widower, but what is the word for someone?

孤儿。

Orphan.

或者失去父母的人叫孤儿，但没有一个词专指失去兄弟姐妹，尤其是失去另一半的双胞胎。

Or an orphan if you lose your parents, but there is no word for someone who was a sibling or in particular a twin and has lost their other half.

感觉我好像每期播客都会提到这个——我自己就是双胞胎。

I feel like somehow I've mentioned this like every podcast, but I'm a twin myself.

当我读到那句台词时，我完全拒绝思考这个问题。

When I read that line, I was like, absolutely not thinking about this.

直接跳过吧。

Let's skip that.

我试图抽离，但就是做不到。

Like, I was like trying to dissociate, but also just like could not.

我完全情绪崩溃了。

I was just like so I was a puddle of emotion.

这句话太犀利了。

That line is so cutting.

而且如此简单。

And it's so simple.

就像，你该如何表达这种悲痛？

It's just like, how do you express this grief?

而悲痛常常以疑问的形式出现。

And often, grief comes in questions.

这种事怎么会发生？

How could this happen?

太阳为何依旧照耀？

How is the sun still shining?

时间为何没有停止？

How hasn't time stopped?

该用什么词来形容？

What is the word?

我做不到。

I can't.

令人毛骨悚然。

Chills.

我

I

我正想说我很喜欢描写他死亡那段文字的简洁。

was gonna say I love the simplicity of the paragraph where he dies.

但这也很反传统，比如贝丝在《小妇人》中的死亡场景，阳光透过窗户照进来，仿佛她的灵魂正飘向光明。

But it also is very anti, let's say, like, Beth's death in little women where a sunbeam comes through the window and it's like her soul just drifts towards the light.

她们含泪微笑，感谢上帝贝丝终于解脱了。

And they smiled through their tears and thank God that Beth was well at last.

而

And

这是一次残酷的死亡。

this is a brutal death.

我在思考一个假设性问题：如果没有莎士比亚，这本书还能成立吗？

One thing that I think I was as a thought experiment, I was like, does this book work if there's no Shakespeare?

我认为它完全可以独立存在。

And I think it absolutely does.

但从某种角度来说，我认为这是每个失去孩子的母亲的愿望投射——孩子未能走完的人生

But the idea, I think it is in some ways a wish fulfillment for every mother who would lose a child who would think and then they didn't get to live their life.

最终化为虚无，记忆逐渐褪色。

So it comes to nothing and the memory fades.

而以这种方式将孩子永恒化，我想某种程度上，这是失去孩子后最好的结局——让他们永远活在父亲的挚爱里。

Then and to have a child immortalized in this way, I think is in some ways the best possible outcome of losing a child is to have them immortalized no less in their father's love.

是啊。

Yeah.

前提是你父亲恰好是超越世代的莎士比亚。

If your father happens to be a beyond generation.

时光。

Time.

是的。

Yeah.

那确实有帮助。

That helps.

嗯，有句话说，当没有人再纪念你、记得你时，你才真正死去。

Well, and there's that saying to that, like, you're not truly dead until there's no one left to honor to remember you.

通过把他写进这部剧，他确保了自己的儿子会...是的。

And by writing him into this play, he ensures that his son will Yeah.

永存

Live

这在统计学上是极其罕见的。

Which is something so statistically rare.

而我认为这正是其中美妙的部分。

And that's I think a beautiful part of this.

好吧，我想最后提的一点与此相似。

Well, my last thing that I wanted to mention is similar.

这是死亡场景，但展现的是艾格尼丝的思绪，或者说玛吉如何描写艾格尼丝在死亡场景中的心路历程。

It's the death scene, but it's Agnes' thoughts or how Maggie writes what Agnes is going through in that death scene.

我最后想分享的是一段引文。

And my last thing is just a quote that I wanted to read.

MJ，你这次录播客又把我弄哭了。

You didn't make me cry during this podcast recording too, MJ.

引文内容是：在安雅的脑海中，她的思绪不断扩展又收束，周而复始。

The quote is, inside Anya's head, her thoughts are widening out, then narrowing down, widening, narrowing over and over again.

她认为这不可能发生。

She thinks this cannot happen.

这不可能。

It cannot.

我们该如何生存？

How will we live?

我们该怎么做？

What will we do?

朱迪斯怎么能承受这一切？

How can Judith bear it?

我该怎么告诉别人？

What will I tell people?

我们该如何继续？

How can we continue?

我本该做些什么？

What should I have done?

我的丈夫在哪里？

Where is my husband?

他会说什么？

What will he say?

我本该如何救他？

How could I have saved him?

为什么我没能救他？

Why didn't I save him?

为什么我没意识到处于危险中的是他？

Why didn't I realize it was he who was in danger?

然后焦点收窄，她想到，他死了。

And then the focus narrows and she thinks, he is dead.

他死了。

He is dead.

他死了。

He is dead.

这三个字对她而言毫无意义。

The three words contain no sense for her.

她无法理解这几个字的含义。

She cannot bend her mind to their meaning.

她无法接受这个荒谬的想法——她最健康强壮的儿子竟会在几天内病重死去。

It is impossible idea that her son, her child, her boy, the healthiest and most robust of her children should within days sicken and die.

除了情感上的触动，其节奏上的变化，这段文字还她.

In addition to just how moving that is, the rhythm of it, the questioning of it, and the repetitiveness, the way she stretches out that scene overall of his death tremendously, but the way she stretches out that sentence, the word that kept coming to mind is incantatory.

这就是它的本质。

And that's what that is.

我深受感动，所以想在结束这期播客前确保朗读了这段文字。

I am so moved by it, and I wanted to make sure I read that before we we wrapped up this podcast.

感觉有点像在教堂里。

It felt like church a little bit.

我觉得她仿佛用那个场景建造了一座大教堂，但没有任何夸张，因为她最不需要的就是那种修饰。

I feel like there was something she built a cathedral, I think, out of that scene, but without any overstatement because she didn't need the thing you need it for least.

是啊。

Yeah.

对吧？

Right?

我能说吗？这完全印证了大家刚才的讨论，小说的最后一行正是我们谈论的内容。

Can I just say what the this is just builds on everything everyone said, the very last line of the novel is exactly what we were talking about?

那是她观看《哈姆雷特》演出时目睹的场景。

It's her watching the play of Hamlet and seeing the scene.

它写道：'记住我'，幽灵说道。

And it says, remember me, the ghost says.

这就是结尾。

And that's the end.

这就是留给我们的东西。

And that's the thing that we're left with.

我坐在这里都起鸡皮疙瘩了。

I just got goosebumps just sitting here.

我就想，我都读过那本书

And I'm like, and I've read that

好多遍了。

multiple times.

但每次都能打动我。

And it gets me every time.

这是书的最后部分，但我们还想聊聊电影。

That is the last part of the book, but we also wanted to talk about the movie.

在座的谁看过这部电影？

Who here has seen the movie?

我看过。

I have.

那就是珍和莉娅。

So that's Jen, Leah.

我看过。

I've seen it.

莎拉，你没看过。

Sarah, you have not.

我不想看。

I didn't want to.

我是个原著纯粹主义者。

I was a book purist.

我认为这本书非常内敛，很大程度上依赖于文字本身。

I think it's such an internal book that rests so much on the writing.

不想看这部电影。

Didn't wanna see the movie.

抱歉。

Sorry.

Jen、Leah，你们对这部电影有什么看法？

Jen, Leah, what are your thoughts on the movie?

我们会尽量避免剧透书中内容是如何被改编成电影的。

And we're gonna try to stay away from exact spoilers of how they translate the book into the movie.

我们希望听众能够自己去发现这一点，电影才刚刚上映。

We want listeners to be able to discover that for themselves, and the movie is just coming out.

但我很好奇，对这部电影的总体看法是什么？

But I'm just curious, top line thoughts about the movie.

有什么特别突出的地方吗？

What stood out?

从大方向上来说。

Brought big picture.

你喜欢这部电影吗？

Did you like it?

你认为人们应该先读原著还是直接看电影？

Do you think people should read the book first or not?

跟我说说你的看法。

Talk to me.

我确实很喜欢这部电影。

I did really like it.

不知道为什么我原本对改编效果有点怀疑。

And I don't know why I was a little maybe skeptical of how this could be translated.

可能是因为莎拉说过，原著小说的文笔和奥法雷尔讲故事的方式实在太有感染力了。

Maybe because Sarah said, like, the writing in the book is and the way that O'Farrell puts the story together is so powerful.

但我发现电影在很多重要方面都忠于原著，同时在一些不适合影视化的地方也做了恰当的改编。

But I I found it to be both very faithful in a lot of important ways, but also not faithful in ways that wouldn't have served the story in this format.

演员们的表演让我非常惊艳。

I really loved the performances.

我认为赵婷最擅长的一点就是她在电影中捕捉自然的方式，这在这部作品的原著和电影中都是非常重要的部分。

I think one of the things that Chloe Zhao does best is the way that she captures nature in her movies, and that is such an important part of this story both in the book and in the movie.

我看电影时比看书时哭得更厉害。

And I cried even more seeing it than I did reading the book.

我可以确认。

Can confirm.

再说一遍，我们一起看的。

Again, we saw it together.

我们坐在MJ旁边。

We sat next to MJ.

我能听到并感觉到Jen开始哭了。

I could hear and feel Jen start to cry.

然后你能听到影院里的抽泣声。

And then you could hear sniffles in the theater.

我不是个爱哭的人。

And I am not a movie crier.

我得说看这部电影时我没哭。

And I will say I did not cry in this movie.

相反，我感觉自己心跳都要加速了。

Instead, I felt like I was gonna have heart palpitations.

我整个人都不好了。

I was unwell.

这是我有生以来最紧张的一次观影体验，只因赵婷将书中情感完美移植到了电影里。

It was one of the most intense experiences seeing a movie that I've ever had just because how Chloe Zhao translates the feelings that you get with this book into the movie.

虽然存在差异，也有不同的叙事选择等等。

And there are differences and there are different storytelling decisions and all of that stuff.

但杰西·巴克利用面部表情传递的情感，那些叙事手法带来的冲击——我直接转向珍说：我们能坐下吗？

But what Jesse Buckley is able to communicate on her face, what those storytelling decisions do, I was just I turned to Jen and I was like, can we please sit?

正想说我很喜欢这部电影。

Was just gonna say I loved it.

片头字幕出现时很多观众都...

The the credits started in a lot of people.

要知道，这就像一场媒体见面会

You know, this was like a press greeting.

人们还得回去工作和生活，所以大家开始陆续离场

People got to get back to their their jobs and their lives and people started leaving.

我当时就，好吧

And I was, okay.

我想我也该穿上外套了

I guess I'll put my coat on.

MJ刚才转向我说，我们能看完片尾字幕吗？

MJ just turned to me and said, can we stay through the credits?

我说，好啊。

I was like, yes.

我需要坐在黑暗里听这段配乐

I need to sit in the dark and listen to this score

稍微放松一下。

decompress for a little bit.

而且我也...我不会剧透任何内容，但我觉得它的收尾方式真的非常打动人心。

And I will also I don't I will not spoil anything, but I feel like it really sticks the landing in a way that I found really moving.

你觉得呢，莉娅？

What do you think, Leah?

首先，说实话看过之后，我实在无法想象除了杰西·巴克利还有谁能胜任这个角色。

First of all, I honestly can't picture anyone but Jesse Buckley in the part once it once you've seen it, I think.

这在电影中常常会出现认知偏差——当你读过原著后，实际呈现与你的想象完全不同。

And that is always such or often a disconnect in films where it's not at all what you pictured if you've read the book.

在我参加的那场放映会上，有幸听到导演赵婷谈论这部作品。

And the screening that I saw, I was able to see Chloe Zhao, the director, talk about it.

结尾有相当大篇幅是原著中没有的，她详细解释了这样处理的原因——故事在原著最后一行之后仍在延续。

And there is a there is a large chunk in the ending that is not in the book, and she explained exactly why that is, that it continues after the book's final line.

她说这个设计在剧本和试拍时冲击力很强，但实际拍摄时就是行不通。

And she said it was so impactful on the page and on film when they tried it, it just didn't work.

但她还提到，当她在电影节首映期间推介这部电影时——尽管她自己并非母亲...

But she also talked about how when she's been presenting this film, when it was premiering at festivals, how she is not a mother.

所以她并没有失去过孩子。

And so she has not lost a child.

杰西·巴克利在这部电影完成后生下了她的第一个孩子。

Jesse Buckley gave birth to her first child after this movie was finished.

玛吉·奥法雷尔也没有失去过孩子，但她确实有一个患有严重过敏症的女儿。

And Maggie O'Farrell has also not lost a child, but she does have a daughter who has severe anaphylaxis.

所以她一直生活在这样的恐惧中——一颗散落的花生或其他什么随时可能夺走她女儿的生命。

So she lives with the idea that literally a stray peanut or what have you could take her daughter at any time.

所以我认为这是艺术与生活经历在电影中有趣的融合。

So I think it's this interesting synthesis of sort of art and experience in the film.

光是听赵婷讲述如何引导这些情绪并找到创作路径就很有启发。

Because just to hear Chloe talk about channeling those emotions and finding this path.

我认为很多时候女性被刻板地认为只能谈论或创作与自身经历相关的艺术，而这部作品恰恰证明了事实并非如此。

And I think a lot of times women are pigeonholed as only being able to talk about or make art about their experiences, and this sort of is further proof that's not necessarily the case.

我有个问题要问你，莉亚——你是最先看到这部电影的人。

I have a question for you, Leah, which is you saw this film first.