读书会：一起来聊聊萨曼莎·哈维的《轨道》

我是吉尔伯特·克鲁兹，《纽约时报书评》的编辑，这里是书评播客。又到了我们每月一次的读书会时间，这个环节每月底更新，一如既往由我们的编辑MJ·富兰克林主持。上个月，我们讨论了艾伦·霍林赫斯特的《我们的夜晚》。而在十二月，MJ和同事们聊了克莱尔·吉根的《像这样的小事》。你可以在nytimes.com或你收听书评播客的任何平台上找到我们所有的读书会节目。

I'm Gilbert Cruz, editor of the New York Times Book Review, and this is the book review podcast. It's time for our monthly book club gathering, which drops at the end of every month, hosted as always by our editor, MJ Franklin. Last month, we discussed Alan Hollinghurst's our evenings. And in December, MJ and co talked about small things like these by Claire Keegan. You can find all of our book review book club episodes on nytimes.com or whatever platform you use to listen to the book review podcast.

MJ，交给你了。

MJ, take it away.

大家好，欢迎来到书评播客的又一期读书会节目。我是MJ·富兰克林，《纽约时报书评》的编辑。本月的书评读书会，我们要讨论萨曼莎·哈维的《轨道》。我们选择这本书有几个原因。

Hello, and welcome to another book club episode of the Book Review Podcast. I'm MJ Franklin. I'm an editor here at the New York Times Book Review. And for this month's Book Review Book Club, we're talking about Orbital by Samantha Harvey. We chose this book for a few reasons.

首先，去年它赢得了一个名为布克奖的文学奖项。听说过吗？这是世界上最负盛名的文学奖项之一，我们觉得既然它能获得布克奖的认可，对我们来说也足够优秀。第二个原因，上个月我们选了一部宏大磅礴的小说作为读书会的书目——艾伦·霍林赫斯特的《我们的夜晚》，而我们书评团队讲究平衡。

First, last year, it won a literal award called the Booker Prize. Ever heard of it? It's one of the most prestigious literary awards in the world, and we thought if it's good enough for the Booker Prize, it's good enough for us. The second reason, last month, we selected a large sweeping novel as our book club book. That was our evenings by Alan Hollenghurst, and we believe in balance here at the book review.

所以我想，接下来选一部篇幅精炼但同样有力的小说吧。第三点，说来有些自私，我就是想找人聊聊这本书。我用一个周末一口气读完了它，之后就觉得必须和其他读者讨论。然后我突然想到，等等，我们不是有个读书会吗？

So I thought, let's choose a slim but equally mighty novel next. And third, and this is selfish, I just wanted to talk about it with someone. I read this book in one big sweep over one weekend, and afterward, I was like, I just need to discuss this with other readers. And then I thought, wait a second. We have a book club.

于是就有了今天的节目。说到和其他读者讨论，今天在录音室里有两位出色的同事兼编辑加入。让我们直接开始吧。首先是大家熟悉的声音，读书会常客，人气嘉宾乔玛娜·卡提卜。嗨，乔玛娜。

So that's what we're here to do. And speaking of talking about it with other readers, joining me today in the studio are two of my wonderful colleagues, fellow editors. Let's just dive in. First, we have a familiar voice, a frequent book clubber, a fan favorite, Jomana Khatib. Hi, Jomana.

嘿，MJ。

Hey, MJ.

欢迎回来。

Welcome back.

很高兴来到这里。

I'm happy to be here.

还有一位新朋友加入我们，这是她首次参与我们的读书俱乐部，甚至是我们书评播客的新嘉宾，珍·哈伦。欢迎你，珍。

And also with us is a new voice, a first time guest, not only on this book club, but on the book review podcast in general, Jen Harlan. Welcome, Jen.

大家好。非常感谢邀请我。很期待和大家交流。

Hello. Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to talk with you all.

珍，你能告诉我们你在《书评》这里负责什么工作吗？

Jen, can you tell us what do you do here at The Book Review?

我在《书评》的工作是负责服务性新闻，基本上就是帮助读者找到他们下一本会爱上的书。

So my job at The Book Review is overseeing service journalism, which basically means that my job is to help our readers find the next book that they will love.

而且你不仅是在帮人们找新书，还用非常独特酷炫的方式。比如你刚做的这个‘寻找你的下一本浪漫小说’测试，这个互动功能可以根据你的心情偏好，给出这些非常聪明、贴心的书籍推荐。

And not only are you just helping people find new books, but you're doing it in really, really remarkable cool ways. Like, you just did this find your next romance book quiz. It's this interactive where you can put in what you're in the mood for, and then it gives you these really smart, thoughtful book recommendations.

谢谢。是的，这本质上像是一本小小的书籍红娘，感觉很适合二月和情人节。

Thank you. Yeah. It's essentially a sort of a little book matchmaker for which felt appropriate for February and Valentine's Day.

如果你是我们的博彩登记员，你可以说出来。

If you're our bookie enter, you can say it.

作为一个小时候经常头上顶块餐巾在家里跑来跑去唱《媒人》的人，我会接受这个称呼。

As somebody who's been a lot of time running around my house as a child singing matchmaker with a napkin on my head, I will take that.

这就是我们的全明星阵容。但在深入讨论之前，我有两条管理事项。在节目最后，我们会揭晓下个月要读的书。所以如果你好奇三月读什么，请坚持听到最后。

And so that's our all star lineup. But before we dive in, I have two admin notes. At the end of the episode, we will reveal our next book. So if you're curious, what are we reading in March? Stay with us until the end.

第二，和往常一样，本次对话会有剧透。这本书很难被剧透，但还是提醒一下：如果你想保持新鲜感，请暂停本期节目，先去读完书再回来。如果你不在乎剧透或已经读过，我们就开始吧。首先，谁能简单介绍一下《轨道》这本书？

And second, as always, there will be spoilers in this conversation. This is a hard book to spoil, but just a heads up, if you wanna go in blind, fresh, pause this episode, go read the book, and then come back to us. And if you don't care about spoilers or if you've already read the book, let's get into it. To start, can someone in the room give us a brief elevator pitch synopsis? What is Orbital about?

我可以谈谈《轨道》。正如MJ提到的，这是本短小精悍的书。它讲述了六名驻守国际空间站的宇航员，在24小时内绕地球16圈的故事。四男二女来自不同国家，组成了这个临时太空家庭，共同生活并进行各种实验。书中既有他们的内心世界，也有对太空、地球及人类关系的宏大思考。

I can talk about what Orbital is about. So as MJ mentioned, this is a slim little book, but mighty. It is about six astronauts who are stationed in the International Space Station, and it takes place over the course of twenty four hours as they orbit the Earth 16 times. You have four men and two women from various countries, but they are all part of this temporary family living on the spaceship together and conducting various experiments. And you get some of their interior life and also some broader musings on space and earth and our relationship to it all.

说得很美，尤其是考虑到这本书既宏大磅礴又细致入微。第一次上节目就这么投入。那么开始吧，我想先问问大家：你们对这本书感觉如何？喜欢？讨厌？

Beautifully said, especially considering, yeah, how amorphous, huge, sweeping, but tiny and specific this book is. First time on the show and already jumping in. So to get started, I just wanna go around and ask, how did everyone feel about this book? Like it? Hate it?

对此感到复杂吗？告诉我你的高层想法。

Feel complicated about it? Give me your top level thoughts.

我，MJ，已经知道这个了，因为我在12月假期回家时自己读了这本书，然后立刻就想和人讨论，这就是我为什么会在这里。我真的很喜欢这本书。我看到有人用红宝石来形容它，说它既小巧又宏大，我认为这完美概括了我的感受。在句子层面上，我觉得写作非常美丽且直击心灵。它的意象非常强烈。

I, MJ, knows this already because I also read this book on my own when I was home over the holidays at the December and then immediately found myself wanting to talk to people about this, which is how I ended up here. I really loved this book. It I saw someone in a ruby describe it as small and massive at the same time, and I think that really encapsulates it for me. I on the sentence level, I found the writing really beautiful and visceral. The imagery of it was very strong.

我发现自己真的能想象自己在空间站和宇航员们在一起，尽管我没有任何相关经验。我还觉得它非常冥想。我想我是随手拿起来的。它太短了。我当时想，哦，这会很棒。

I found myself really being able to picture myself on the space station and with the astronauts even though that is not something that I have any experience with. I also found it very meditative. It was something I think I picked it up. It was so short. I was like, oh, this will be great.

这本书是我会在一天内读完的那种，当我有大量空闲阅读时间，可以在一年的结束和另一年的开始之间的那种阈限空间里赶上进度。但当我和宇航员们一起处于他们发现自己所在的阈限空间，时间变得支离破碎且有点无形时，我发现这不是一本我能一口气读完的书，而是我会时不时地沉浸其中，读一小段冥想的章节，然后花些时间消化，再回来继续。总的来说，我很享受。

This is gonna be a book that I'll read in a day while I have a lot of spare reading time to catch up on things over the in that sort of liminal space between the end of one year and beginning of the other. But as I was with the astronauts in this liminal space that they find themselves in where time gets gets shredded and amorphous a little bit, this was not a book that I found I was able to binge, but I found myself dipping in and out for these little kind of meditative jewels of a chapter and then taking some time to to process and then coming back. And overall, enjoyed it.

我喜欢那种阅读体验。是的。你说你在这个阈限空间里。他们也在这种阈限空间里。就像是氛围的融合，问号。

I love that reading experience. Yeah. You said that you're in this liminal space. They're in this liminal space. It was like a merging of the atmospheres, question mark.

当然。你呢，Ximona？你对这本书感觉如何？

Sure. What about you, Ximona? How did you feel about this book?

是的。所以这是一个我希望我能为截止日期而活的例子。我无法改变我是谁。所以我——而且我也是一个快速阅读者。所以我当时想，好吧。

Yeah. I so this is a case where I wished I live for a deadline. I cannot change who I am. So I and and I'm also a fast reader. So I was like, okay.

我打算专门留出一个周末来做这件事，然后继续我的阅读之旅。但我很快意识到自己方法上的错误。因为我当时想的是，哦，我很想细细品味这本书，但实际上我感觉自己像是在囫囵吞枣。这可能会引发窒息的风险。所以实际情况是，我确实在狼吞虎咽地阅读。

I'm gonna set aside, like, a weekend for this, and then I'm gonna keep going with my reading train. And I very quickly realized the error of my ways. Because I was just sort of like, oh, I would love to savor this, but instead I feel like I'm eating this without chewing. And which is a choking concern. And and so what happened is that I was really gobbling this up.

我当时就觉得，这些都是优美而深刻的沉思。当你阅读它们并积累了大量页数后，会感觉像是得了肾结石一样。懂吗？就是那种，天啊，有太多抒情的语言在我血液里堆积。我在想这些内容要通过身体排出时会是什么感觉。

And I was like, these are beautiful, profound meditations. When you read them and that you accrete so many pages, you sort of get like a little bit of a of a kidney stone. Right? Where it's, man, there's a lot of lyrical language that's building up in my bloodstream. I wonder how it's gonna be to pass this out of my body.

我想提醒读者们，如果你决定一鼓作气听完或读完这本书，或者在没有读过的情况下收听这个播客，请控制好节奏。这正是那种我希望自己能每晚睡前只读一个章节的书。

I would like to warn readers, if you have decided to plow ahead and listen or and read this book, that you're listening to this podcast without having read it, just pace yourself. This is the kind of book that I wished I had given myself one one of those sections a night before bed.

那么我要问几个后续的澄清性问题。

So I'm gonna ask some follow-up clarity questions.

我准备好了。我准备好了。

I'm ready. I'm ready.

所以你是说你读得太快了。嗯。这是否意味着你并不喜欢它？觉得还行，但不是理想的阅读体验？

So you're saying that you gobbled it up too fast. Yeah. And does that mean you didn't like it? That it was okay, but not an ideal reading experience?

我明白。你的问题正是我的困惑。我刚才还在和Jen与MJ开会时说过这话。当我快速阅读时，虽然知道速度太快，但我在想，这本书有很多值得欣赏的地方。通常当我产生'我很欣赏这本书'这种想法时，往往意味着在本能层面上，我并不喜欢它或没有产生共鸣。

I understand. Your questions are my questions. So I I literally just said this to Jen and MJ in an earlier meeting. But I as I was reading quickly, and I knew it was too fast, I was thinking to myself, there's a lot to admire in this book. Usually, when I have that thought to myself where it's like, oh, I admire so much about this book, that usually means that, like, on an animal level, I don't like it or I'm not responding to it.

我认为在这个案例中，萨曼莎·哈维显然是一位文笔优美的作家。而且我觉得她能以不显得浮夸或模仿过往文学的方式完成这本书，确实是她的一大成就。你能想象那可能成为最噩梦般的书吗？就像那种‘哦，他们超脱尘世了，老兄。看啊，我的手掌覆盖着加纳’的感觉。

I think in this case, Samantha Harvey is obviously a beautiful writer. And I I I think it's a true accomplishment of hers that she was able to put together this book in a way that doesn't feel like like kind of puff puff past literature. And do you imagine how that could be like like the worst nightmare kind of book of where it's like, oh, like, they're above the earth, man. Look. My hands covering Ghana.

比如，什么？那种表达方式太酷了。所以它完全不是那种肤浅的作品。它很美，很深刻。

Like, what? Like, face is so cool. And so, like, it's not that at all. It's it's it's beautiful. It's profound.

这本书对各种亲密关系和深度的尺度把握得非常好，我对此十分钦佩。但我可能沉浸得太深了，对吧？

It has a very, very good handle on all sorts of on, like, all sorts of scale of intimacy and profundity, and I totally admired that. But I I was taking it in too much. Right?

你呢，珍？你说过本以为会狼吞虎咽地读完，后来意识到不该这样，于是改为慢慢品味。这本书和你的阅读体验中是什么让你意识到需要这样做？

What about you, Jen? Because you said you thought you were gonna gobble it up and realize that you shouldn't and then kept dipping into it. What about this book and your reading experience made you realize that that was a thing that you needed to do?

我想当我刚开始读时，这本书的开篇段落可能是我读过所有书中最喜欢的之一。语言实在太美了。

So I think when I I started first, this book has one of my favorite, like, opening paragraphs of any book that I I think I've ever read. The language is so beautiful.

能给我们读一段吗？

Can you read a bit from it?

好的。她这样开篇：他们乘坐航天器绕地球旋转，彼此紧密相依又极度孤独，甚至他们的思想、他们内心的神话有时也会交汇。有时他们会做相同的梦——关于分形、蓝色球体、被黑暗吞噬的熟悉面孔，以及冲击感官的、充满活力的漆黑太空。原始太空如同一头黑豹，野性而原始。

Yes. She opens the book rotating about the Earth in their spacecraft. They are so together and so alone that even their thoughts, their internal mythologies at times convene. Sometimes they dream the same dream of fractals and blue spheres and familiar faces engulfed in dark and of the bright energetic black of space that slams their senses. Raw space is a panther, feral and primal.

他们梦见它在宿舍里潜行。而对我来说，我就觉得，我上船了。我坐上了这趟过山车，准备好了。我要像火箭一样——无意双关——飞速读完这本书。

They dream it stalking their quarters. And that to me just I was like, I'm I'm in. I am on I am on this roller coaster. I'm ready. I'm gonna rocket, no pun intended, through this book.

前几章我真的是一口气吞下去的。然后发现自己开始有点犯困。我就想，不知道是不是因为假期，或者又陷入了那种时间感模糊的奇怪过渡期。但我意识到的问题是，读到后面几章时，总得不断翻回前面重读。

And I really inhaled the first few chapters. And then I found myself getting a little sleepy. And I was like, I don't know if this is maybe it's just the holidays. Maybe I'm just, again, in that weird in between time where time loses its its shape. But I think what I realized is that I kept having to go back and read things as I got a few chapters in.

重读时反而特别享受。所以我觉得这本书就像浓度极高的黑巧克力或烈性威士忌，小口细品时醇厚满足，但若贪杯猛灌——我从没把书比作肾结石过——却能理解那种感官超载的比喻。萨曼莎·哈维的每个句子都信息量爆炸。

And when I went back and read them, I really enjoyed them. And so to me, I think the thing I keep in my head comparing this book to is like, it's like a really, really intense dark chocolate or a really intense whiskey. It is very, very satisfying and rich when savored in small doses. But if you try if I try to binge too much of it at once, then I can I've never thought of a book as a kidney stone, but I can see where that the where the that is coming, where it just becomes a bit of sensory overload. And I think it's also Samantha Harvey packs so much into every sentence of this book.

文字极其精炼，字字珠玑。读得太快就会像我一样遗漏很多内容，必须慢慢咀嚼才能消化每章的深意。

It's very it's very tight, but every every word in here counts. And so rushing through it too much, you you find I found myself missing a lot of things and also not I needed to, like, really take my time to fully grasp everything that was in each chapter.

MJ你呢？对这本书有什么看法？

MJ, how about you? What are your thoughts about the book?

好问题。乍看这不是我常读的类型，因为我对太空题材——无意双关——不太感冒，倒不是说不喜欢，只是每个人都有自己的心头好。太空不是我的菜，用我的话说'不是我的道场'。但那些无明确情节、漫游探索型小说，邀请读者沉浸于角色、思想或氛围的，正是我的入口。

That's a good question. So at a glance, this is not a typical book for me because I don't gravitate toward, no pun intended, space as a topic, and that's not in a bad way or anything. I think everyone just has those things that they super, super love and things that that just don't spark joy or as I like to say, not their ministry. Spaces, not for me, not my ministry. What is though, plotless, aimless, wandering, searching books where nothing really happens, but the novel invites you to sit with a character or an idea or an atmosphere, and that was my hook here.

我也喜欢框架紧凑的作品，就像Jen说的：一个空间站，六个人，二十四小时，十六圈轨道。这就是我的切入点。我确实一口气读完了，非常喜欢。虽然能理解那种冥想式探索会显得沉闷，但我爱它的——不知这个词是否准确——'动态感'。

I also love books with a tight frame, and Jen mentioned before, you're on one space station, six people, twenty four hours, 16 orbits. And so that was my way in. And I actually did gobble it up in one big reading session, and I loved it. I found I could see how you can get it gets so meditative and so searching that it could feel dull. But what I loved is how I don't know if this is the right word, kinetic.

这本书让人感觉各种想法四处迸发。你在空间站里，和这些老鼠在一起，凝视着地球，目睹台风形成。

The the book felt the ideas are bouncing all over the place. You're in the space station. You're with these mice. You're looking at Earth. You're watching this typhoon form.

然后你开始思考一幅画，思考悲伤。即便故事和角色都处于失重漂浮状态，这些想法仍显得如此活跃。他们确实处于失重状态，而我爱极了这种感觉。我的书页上有一半内容都划了线、标了星号，还有不少带爱心标记的引文。

Then you're thinking about a painting. You're thinking about grief, and the ideas felt so active even as the the story and these characters are literally floating. They're they're they're weightless, and I loved that. And then half of my copy is underlined, starred. There are quotes with hearts next to them.

我自认不是情感丰富的人，常开玩笑说没有我压抑不了的情绪。但这本书把我变成了一个巨大的情感体，让我不断停下来思考，去珍视地球、生命、人类的挣扎，思考生存的意义、人际联结的意义以及失去这些联结意味着什么。它对我施了魔法，我如此热爱它。以上是我的全部情感反应，而从理性角度看，我认为这本书构思极为精妙。

I am not a feeler, I say. I actually joke that I've never met a feeling I couldn't bottle up. But this book turned me into this huge ball of emotion of just pausing and appreciating earth and life and our human struggles and what it means to be alive and what it means to have connections with people and to lose those connections. And I it just cast a spell on me, and I loved it so much. And that's all my emotions about it, but intellectually, I found that this book is so deft.

Jen，你指出了书中句子多么紧凑密集。但除了情感元素，它还充满了关于太空的有趣事实，比如在太空中存在的意义。我从没想过在太空中不能哭泣

Jen, you pointed out how compact and dense the sentences are. But in addition to emotions, it's just filled with interesting facts about space and about how it what it means to exist exist in space. I never thought about the fact that you can't cry

是的。这个细节也让我震惊——他们必须收集所有眼泪，因为在空间站上不能浪费水资源，也不能让水四处漂浮。

in space. Yes. I was also really struck by that where they have to collect all of their tears because you can't waste water on the or let or have water just floating around on the space station.

还有像在太空骑固定自行车这种矛盾行为。什么？就是为了防止肌肉萎缩。这

Or just like the contradiction of being on a stationary bike in space. Like, what? So that your muscles don't atrophy. It's

没错。既疯狂又迷人。

Yeah. It's insane and fascinating.

完全同意。

Totally.

因此我觉得正是这点让我与这本书保持联系、投入并积极参与。我确实同意有时会感到有点迷失和些许无趣，尤其是当宇航员们入睡时。因为这本书大部分内容关乎人性本身，一旦人性退场，只剩下观察星辰时，我就有点渴望故事结束。但最后我想说的是，我喜欢称这是一本以太空为背景，却关于地球与生命的书。我钟爱这种双重性。

And so I felt like that's what kept me connected and engaged and active in this book. I do agree that there are some times that I felt a little bit lost and a little bit uninterested, and that came specifically when the astronauts went to sleep. Because so much of this book is about humanity itself, once humanity retires and you're just observing the stars, then I was a little bit eager for the book to end. But I guess the last thing I would say is that I like to say that this is a book set in space, but about Earth in life. And I love that duality.

是的。和你类似，在宇航员入睡后的最后几圈轨道飞行中，虽然哈维仍在沉思地球与人性，但对我来说有点像片尾字幕。高潮已过，文字依然优美动人，但我发现自己逐渐抽离——或许这正是意图所在。因为到最后，感觉我们只是继续环绕着地球及其美丽奇迹旋转，而这些你早已充分体验过了。

Yeah. I similar to you, the the last few orbits after the astronauts are asleep and were in their dreams, but you're also just having Harvey kind of meditating on Earth and humanity felt a little bit like closing credits to me. The action has ended, and now the writing continues to be really beautiful and evocative. But I did find myself slowly disengaging, which is maybe the point. But from it at the end, because there just felt like there we were continuing to spin around the earth and all its beauty and wonder, but you've done so much of that already.

这几乎像是个睡前故事。就像你活跃、活跃，然后让人入睡。角色们也入睡了。

It's almost like a bedtime story. A bedtime story, like, you're you're active, you're active, and then get someone to go to sleep. The characters also go to sleep.

你说睡前故事很有趣，因为结尾当宇航员们真正入睡时，有个非常美妙的处理——你进入他们的梦境，许多人回到了童年时光。比如日本宇航员千惠（书中开场前刚失去母亲，我认为是最引人入胜的角色之一）梦见幼时与母亲登山；英国宇航员内尔则梦见童年痴迷的挑战者号爆炸事件。书中大量探讨亲子关系，既有与人类父母的关系，也有将地球视为母亲的主题。最终他们回归到这种孩童状态，仿佛循环终结，而读者也被温柔哄睡。

And That's also interesting you say bedtime story because there's also there's this really beautiful thing that happens at the end when the astronauts do fall asleep where you go into their dreams and a lot of them return to their childhoods in those spaces. You have Chie, who's the Japanese astronaut who has lost her mother right before the book starts, who I was I found one of the most compelling characters who has this dream about being a child and climbing a mountain with her mother. You have Nell who is the British astronaut who's dreaming about her she was obsessed with the Challenger explosion when she was a child. And as they're they're sort of reverting there's a lot in this book about parent and child relationships and about both their relationships with their human parents, but also the Earth as a mother. And so they sort of revert to this childlike state at the very end, like, end of this cycle, and then you two are being lulled to sleep.

令我印象深刻的是萨曼莎·哈维的含蓄手法——虽然只有24小时，但他们会经历16次日出日落。身体仍需7小时睡眠，我们视为理所当然的人类生存基准（如昼夜节律或按地球作息安排生活）对宇航员完全失效，他们得努力在飞船中维持基本人性。阅读时我不断提醒自己：当我偶尔走神或抽离，总会有新亮点重新抓住我——这就像昼夜节律本身。

One of the things that I found so impressive about this was the way that Samantha Harvey was not heavy handed and being like, it's twenty four hours, but they're gonna see the sun rise and set 16 times. Your body still has to sleep for seven hours and sort of just like how these things that we take for granted in a lot of ways about just like the baseline of human existence or our circadian rhythm or like how we arrange our days based on what's going on on Earth is like completely not possible for the astronauts and how they have to struggle to, like, maintain a semblance of normal humanity while they're still in the shuttle. So I actually like and I what I kept trying to remind myself when I was reading this and also knowing that there were moments when I was dropping off or I was disengaging a bit, and then there would be something that would really pique my interest again. I was like, okay. This is like the circadian rhythm.

就像下午3点到5点我永远心不在焉，或许这些章节就是我的下午低迷时段。这没关系，此刻我反而在这种共同人性中获得了安心感。

Like, they're gonna like, the hours between three and 5PM, I'm never paying attention to what's going on. And maybe so maybe these chapters are my three to 5PM. And that's okay. I I actually felt assured of the common humanity in this moment.

我想再深入探讨一下，哪些章节真正吸引了你，又有哪些时刻让你觉得索然无味？是因为某个故事情节吗？还是某个特定角色？

I wanna dig in a little bit more and ask what were the chapters that really hooked you, and what were those moments where you're like, I'm just not interested? Was it a storyline? Was it a particular character?

是的。关于母亲去世的部分，某种程度上触动了我内心深处的恐惧。直白地说出感受——我特别喜欢听那些妻子们和她们配偶的故事，思考如何在那样惊人的距离下维系关系。我觉得这很美。

Yeah. With the with the mother with her mother passing away, partially because that touches, like, a very deep fear of mine. Talking about feeling on main. I mean, I loved hearing about the wives, like, and their spouses and the real like, I mean, I loved thinking about how you maintain relationships, like, at that kind of incredible distance. I think that's beautiful.

对我而言，这是一种未被充分探索却又极为崇高的爱。我深深为此着迷。至于让我失去兴趣的部分？我不太确定。

To me, that's like such an underexplored and very exalted kind of love. I I love that. And I was very, very intrigued by that. And what did what lost me? I don't know.

台风第一次出现时我很感兴趣，第二次出现时也是。但后来我就觉得：好吧，我们该推进剧情了。

I was interested in the typhoon the first time it came up. I was interested in the typhoon the second time it came up. And then I was like, okay. I I we gotta move on.

我们明白了，有台风。

We got it. There's a typhoon.

我知道。其实书评区有位读者提到，所有地理参照的描述开始变得模糊，反而干扰了他的阅读体验。我理解这种感受。作者已经处理得足够巧妙——比如有段情节是两人在舱外维修设备...

I know. Or or just like one of the commenters on the book club article actually mentioned that the all the references to the geography were starting to blur together or actually interrupt his reading experience. And I see that. I see that. I think she handled it as skillfully as anybody could have, where it's sort of like, there's a moment when two of them are like repairing something on the outside of the craft.

当时写着'别往下看'。但你怎么可能不往下看呢？看到'哦那是法国，那是德国，还有你的脚'之类的描写，挺让人出戏的。

And it's don't look down. Don't look down. But then, of course, how do you not look down and realize that, like, oh, there's France and there's Germany, and then here's your foot. Like, it's sad. No.

那你呢，MJ？

So how about you, MJ?

我能为台风辩护一下吗？

Can I mount a defense for the typhoon?

当然，请讲。

Yeah, please.

总的来说台风并不是我最喜欢的情节线，但我欣赏的是它营造的那种迫在眉睫的灾难感——因为事实如此。一场台风即将袭击菲律宾（我记得是），而这些宇航员就在地球上空。他们悬浮在家园之上，明知可以尝试向下发送信号，却无法及时送达民众手中。我欣赏这种设定，正如我早前提到的情感与智识双重元素——这场台风将情感张力拔高到了极致。

The typhoon was not my favorite storyline overall, but what I appreciated about it is there's a sense that it's this looming disaster because it is. There's a typhoon that's about to crash into The Philippines, I believe it is, and these astronauts are above Earth. They're above their home. They know we can try to send a signal down, but it won't get to people in time. And what I appreciated about that, I I mentioned earlier the the the emotional plus the intellectual element, That the emotional stakes of that is so heightened.

但从理性层面，我欣赏的是视角的反转。并非台风在逼近，而是人类在逼近台风。我太爱这种站位关系了。而且这本书的故事再次发生在二十四小时内。

But what I intellectually appreciate about it is the reversal. The typhoon's not looming. The humans are. And I love that positionality to it. And and this is a book that in it's, again, twenty four hours.

通常很难设置悬念钩子，但这个情节确实赋予了叙事动力——接下来会发生什么？他们不是要阻止台风（毕竟台风无法阻止），而是如何应对这场步步紧逼的灾难？这就是我欣赏它的原因。

It's hard to have a hook, but this is the one that does give it energy. What's gonna happen? How are they gonna not how are they gonna stop the typhoon? You can't stop a typhoon, but how are they gonna grapple with this idea of a disaster that's inching closer and closer and closer? So that's what I I I liked about it.

看到某个节点时我不禁想：台风到底在哪儿？这种重复出现多少次了？因为轨道环绕足足有16次，有时确实会削弱冲击力。但作为台风投下的阴影（而非台风本身），这种处理...

At a certain point, I was like, yeah. Where is the typhoon? How often is this happening? Because it's so repetitive 16 times that you're orbiting, it does sometimes lose its power. But as a shadow that the typhoon is casting, but it's not, again, not the typhoon.

就像轨道在投射阴影一样。我觉得这效果非常震撼。

It's like the the orbit that's casting. I thought that was really effective.

对我来说，这也唤起了宇航员在那里的体验——他们经历了无数次日出日落，反复看着地球，以至于也开始失去视角感。这本书里有很多关于视角的探讨。我喜欢台风情节的对比：宇航员们仿佛无所不在，能从地球人无法企及的角度观察一切，却又完全无能为力，只能拍照。特别是皮特罗——他在菲律宾蜜月时遇到的那个家庭一直萦绕在他心头，担心他们能否及时撤离，但最终能做的只是目睹灾难逼近。

It also to me felt evocative of the experience of the astronauts being there is that by they are also having going through so many sunrises and sunsets and seeing Earth so many times, like, they also start to lose perspective, which and there there's so much about perspective in this book. And I also I think what I liked about the typhoon is the contrast between the astronauts are sort of omnipresent. They can see everything from a perspective that no other human on Earth has, but they are also completely powerless to do any all they can do is take photos. And you have Pietro, in particular, who had there's a family that he met on his honeymoon in The Philippines who he's thinking about and is concerned about, are they gonna be able to evacuate? But all you can really do is watch this disaster approach.

完全同意，说得好。他们处于上帝视角却毫无力量。这个设定太棒了。很享受这次讨论，我们稍后继续，现在先短暂休息一下。

I completely agree, and that's a good point. Like, they're in the god position with no power. I love that. I love this conversation, and we're gonna continue. But first, we should take a quick break.

嘿，等等。这是属于你的时刻。是你此生此日的专属时刻，是你尽情展现的日子。

Hey. Hold up. This is your minute. It's your minute in this life on this day. It's your day to play.

去展现，去创造，去行动，去穿越，去探索。这是你分享的清晨，你塑造的周末，去烹饪，去沉浸，去聆听，去等待。这是你休憩的身体，去滋养，去成长。这是你的思想，你懂的？这是你的天地，你的国度，你热爱的生活，去崛起，去梦想，去改变。

To play, to make, to move, to move through, to explore. It's your morning to share, your weekend to shape, to cook, to soak, to listen to, to wait. It's your body to rest, to nourish, to grow. It's your mind, you know? It's your place, your country, your life to love, to rise, to dream, to change.

向世界展示——这个世界和任何人所见的一样精彩，去理解这个世界。《纽约时报》。更多内容请访问nytimes.com/yourworld。

To show world as much as anyone's, to show world to understand. The New York Times. Find out more at nytimes.com/yourworld.

我们回来了。这里是书评播客，我是MJ·富兰克林，正在与朱玛尼卡·蒂布和珍·哈兰讨论萨曼莎·哈维的《轨道》。现在进入我最喜欢的环节——自由讨论时间。

And we're back. This is the book review podcast. I'm MJ Franklin. I'm talking to Jumanika Thib and Jen Harlan, and we are discussing Orbital by Samantha Harvey. And now we're in the part of the show that I like to call free swim.

你想聊些什么？有什么想提出来的话题吗？我现在跟着你的节奏走。

What do you wanna talk about? What do wanna bring up? I'm now I'm following your lead.

好吧。我拿着我的面条，我的泳池浮条。

Alright. I got my noodle. I got my pool noodle.

深入探讨。我的浮臂圈戴好了。我有两个想法。其一，我对这本书中出现的艺术作品片段非常感兴趣。嗯。

Diving in. My floaties are on. I have two thoughts. One, I was really interested by the pieces of art that come up in this book. Mhmm.

再者，我认为这一切都与贯穿全书视角与尺度的问题相呼应。比如美国宇航员肖恩，他在高中艺术史课上遇见妻子时，他们正在讨论委拉斯开兹的画作《宫娥》，这幅画的主题和焦点人物始终模糊不清。有句老师讲解时说的话，被他妻子写在明信片上带入了太空——‘欢迎来到人类生活的镜中迷宫’。还有一位俄罗斯宇航员，他痴迷于迈克尔·柯林斯拍摄的一张照片，柯林斯是登月任务中留守指令舱的美国宇航员。

And again, think it all sort of plays into this question of perspective that is and scale that is running through the whole book. So you have the the American astronaut, Sean, who met his wife in high school in an art history class where they were talking about the Velasquez painting Las Meninas, which again is a painting where it's very unclear who the subject of the painting is and who you're supposed to be looking at. There's a line that the teacher says when she's teaching them about this that his wife has written on a postcard he brought to space. And she says, welcome to the labyrinth of mirrors that is human life. And then you also have one of the Russian cosmonauts who was really fixated on a photograph that Michael Collins, who was one of the American astronauts on the moon mission, he was the one who stayed behind while his two fellow astronauts went and walked on the moon.

他拍下的照片里，月球着陆舱后方是悬浮的地球。人们说当时‘全人类都在这张照片里，除了他自己’。这种处境与空间站宇航员相似——书中另一个重要情节是时隔多年（具体年份我记不清了）的首个登月任务在前夜发射，空间站宇航员们为此举办了寒酸的临时庆祝派对。这引发了极其复杂的人类情感交织。

He took this photo where you can see the lunar landing module and then Earth beyond the moon. And people say that he, at the time, was all of humanity is in this photo except for him. And that's sort of, I think, similar to the the position that the astronauts are in, except you have this moon mission, which is one of the other rare there's not a lot of plot in this book, but one of the plot points is that the first lunar mission in, I think oh, I forget how long, but in a long time, has taken off the night before. And the astronauts on the space station have had this kind of sad little cobbled together party to celebrate this. But there's this very, very human cocktail of emotions that this brings up for them.

他们既对同样勇闯太空的科学家探险者产生共鸣，又深知其中危险——因为他们亲历过。这本质上等于把自己绑在炸弹上，进入随时可能丧命的境地。

There's both this feeling of solidarity with these other scientists explorers who are venturing into space like them. They know exactly how dangerous and this is because they have done it themselves. You're basically strapping yourself to a bomb and venturing into an environment where you could die at any moment.

这是脆弱性的巅峰。

It's the peak of vulnerability.

是的。但还有一种奇怪的感觉，不是无关紧要，而是它长期存在。我认为空间站里的宇航员是目前人类经验中最具远见的人，他们到达了人类所能及的最远边界。而现在有三四名航天飞机上的宇航员超越了他们的位置，这对我们书中描述的宇航员地位意味着什么？

Yes. But then there's also this weird sort of it brings this kind of feeling of is of not irrelevance, but like it puts there for a long time, I think the space station, they have been the humans with the most perspective who have gone to the farthest reach they are at the farthest reaches of any human experience at this point in time. And now there are these three or four astronauts on a shuttle who have surpassed them, and what does that mean for the position of the astronauts that we're spending our book with?

我不知道你怎么想，也许他们也有同感。这里存在嫉妒心理，对吧？他们不再处于巅峰，有人在某个微小方面超越了他们。

I don't know about you, and maybe this is how they felt. I there's jealousy at play. Right? Like, they're no longer at the peak. Someone has surpassed them in even a short, small way.

我也在想，这大概是在斯卡利亚大法官去世前后。他实际上与一位自由派大法官私交甚笃，那位法官曾说：'我无法形容我们之间的羁绊——在这个最高法院的特定时期，只有我们九人才能真正理解这份工作的意义。'因此他们建立了常人无法企及的深厚情谊。我想这些宇航员之间必然也是如此。但即便只是流露出那一点嫉妒情绪，也是种非常...非常精妙的情感切入点，你明白吗？

I was also thinking about how I think this is around the time that Scalia died, and he was actually very close friends with one of the liberal justices who said, I can't tell you what the bonds are like on and this is in their iteration of the supreme court, but, like, nobody else except for the nine of us understands what this job is. And so you're really able to forge some, like, profound relationships you couldn't have with anybody that's not seated as a justice in this role, and I think has to be the same for these people. But I do think even just, like, eking out that little bit of jealous edge is such a good such a good it's a good, like, emotional thing to snag on. You know?

其实空间站本身在技术上是分区的。有俄罗斯舱段和其他国家舱段，甚至厕所旁边还贴着告示写着'请使用本国指定卫生间'。

I mean, even the space station itself is technically divided. You have the Russian section and then the everyone else section, and there's even a sign up by the bathroom that says, please use your national toilet.

他们都无视这个规定吗？

And they all ignore it?

没错。他们都嘲笑这个规定，完全无视。而且在那里还会发生关于宗教的辩论，存在性别分歧。

Yes. They all just they mock it. They ignore it. And then you have, like, conversations and debates about religion happening up there. You have there's a there are gender divides.

宇航员中有两名女性和四名男性。即使在这个你以为人类可能已经超脱了世俗琐事的太空环境中，这些因素仍会以有趣而意外的方式显现出来。

You have two women and four men who are the astronauts. And so even in the space where you think we would have perhaps loftily, like, transcended all of the petty human earthly concerns, like, of those things still play out in interesting and surprising ways.

而且不仅仅是外在表现，它们是被编码的。他们并非主动选择划分卫生间，就像那些管理他们的世俗组织所做的那样。然后这些规定本应支配他们的行为，而他们必须在太空中决定是否遵循或违背这些规则。但问题不仅在于他们需要应对这些世俗事务，更在于这些矛盾本身就植根于任务设计之中。

And not just play out, but are encoded. They didn't choose to divide the the bathrooms, like, what the earthly organizations that govern them did. And then that is what is supposed to be dictating them, and then they have to decide once they're up there whether to act on that or to follow it or not. And but it's not just that they are grappling with these these earthly things, but it's encoded in the mission itself.

就像，你无法关闭情感直到你能够做到。比如对地球上配偶的思念。明白吗？你能想象自己蜷缩在太空舱的睡袋里吗？首先，你可是在太空啊。

Like, you can't turn off until you can. Like, the desire for your spouse back home. Right? Can you imagine sort of being in your, like, little bat sleeping bag in space? First of all, you're in space.

你能

Can you

想象身处

imagine being

太空吗？

in space?

没错。而且你要知道，你周围那些人在此刻理论上构成了你的意识环境。但你就是——就是疯狂想念妻子或丈夫。然后你不得不做出清醒决定：现在想起这些太痛苦了，既然我处于这种特殊状态，不如暂时关闭这部分情感，以当前这种人类形态存在。

Right. And it's and, you know, you're there with, people that are ostensibly forming your your consciousness for the time being. But, like, you just real you really miss your wife or you really miss your husband. And and then making that conscious decision where it's like, it's too painful to think about this right now, and I'm actually in such an altered state that, like, I'm going to, like, power down this part of myself while I am this type of human right now.

但这里还存在另一个对比。再次强调，'对比'正是我对这本书的总结。因为有个角色意识到自己多么深爱妻子，多么珍视她，他通过一幅画作感受着与妻子的联结；而另一个角色在太空中却想着：我该离婚了，不是吗？

But then there's another contrast though. And this is again the word contrast is how I would describe this book. Because there's one character who realizes just how much he loves his wife and how much he cherishes his wife, and he's thinking about this painting and feeling connected to her. And there's another character who up there is like, I need a divorce, don't I?

是啊。是啊。

Yeah. Yeah.

看着这两个角色互相视为战利品，我感到既有趣又着迷。换作其他书可能显得陈词滥调，但在这里却充满力量。它让我意识到萨曼莎·哈维在这本书里埋设的每个对应关系、每个细节都是多么刻意，而我们本该从这些关联中即兴发挥。

And watching those two characters as spoils for each other, I just felt so interesting and fascinating. And I think in another book, it could fill Pat, but here it just felt very powerful. It made felt like it it keyed me in on how intentional every parallel, every detail, etcetera, that Samantha Harvey has dropped into this book is and how we are supposed to riff off of these connections.

我觉得这其中还包含真正拓展意识的启示。比如我可能正和某人并肩坐在2号线上，当列车停靠第十四街时，他暗自决定'我要离开妻子'。虽然我们不必身处小说那种极端环境，但奇妙的是，这种极端氛围反而能让你领悟萨曼莎·哈维试图传达的观点，并将其应用到这个相比之下充满氧气、压力渺小的地球生活中。

I think there are also some real consciousness expanding lessons you can take from that. So, like, I could be sitting next to somebody on the two train who's, like, deciding as we pull into Fourteenth Street. Yeah. I am gonna leave my wife. We don't have to be in but it it's amazing how, in some ways, having the extreme atmosphere and environment of this novel allows you to still even take some of those points that I think harp Samantha Harvey's trying to make and apply them to a very oxygenated, very low stress by comparison life here on Earth.

这其实引出了我想问你的问题：你会从这本书带走什么？在我看来，这本书几乎像一则寓言。正是这种紧凑的框架结构——狭小画幅承载宏大意象——促使我们在微观层面审视某些理念，再将其带入宏观世界。

That actually gets at one of the questions I was gonna ask you, which is what are you gonna take away from this book? Are there things that you're gonna take away from it? This book seems to be, in my mind, functioning almost like a parable. I think that's why it has that tight frame to tight frame, big image. I think it wants us to examine in a microcosm certain ideas, take them with us on a macro level.

你会从这本书带走些什么？具体是什么呢？

Are there things that you're gonna take away from this book? And if so, what?

我认为这本书提出了许多宏大而难以把握的问题，无论是初次阅读还是这次重读，都让我不断思考。关于悲痛与惊奇，关于为人父母，关于观察视角。太空本身也像我们难以拥抱的庞然大物，而书中对宇航员视角的极致呈现，既凸显了我们在宇宙中不过微尘，又提醒我们这颗微尘内部蕴含的浩瀚——这些都将长久萦绕在我脑海。

I think this book brought up a lot of, yeah, sort of like big hard to wrap your arms around questions and issues that I found myself thinking about a lot after I read it both the first time and then again for this. I found myself thinking a lot about grief and about wonder and about parenthood and about perspective. And I think space itself also is something that like feels hard to wrap our our arms around. And the way that the book really high ends, like, the astronaut's perspective really highlights both how teeny teeny tiny we are as like our little speck in the cosmos, and yet the, like, universe that is contained within that speck is something that I will be thinking about for a while.

同意。

Agreed.

这本书没有设定在深海让我很开心，因为那样的话，我觉得我可能会永远沉浸在NYU的术语里出不来。说实话，我知道这听起来像在逃避，但我会紧紧抓住的很多事物恰恰是那些实实在在的现实细节。你的

It made me happy this book was not set in the deep ocean because that, I think, would have literally sent me to NYU lingo never to come out. I I honestly, I I know this sounds like a cop out, but a lot of the things that I am going to cling to are the very kind of matter of fact practical realities. It's really hard for your

鼻窦很难排液。我都没意识到你一直鼻塞。

sinuses to drain. I didn't realize you were congested the whole time.

完全同意。听起来

Completely. It sounds

糟透了。太可怕了。说实话，我早有心理准备，因为这种情况我经常遇到——突然之间，某些事就会给我当头一棒，或者让我想起很久以前读过的东西。可能是十年后，也可能是五年后。

terrible. Was awful. And honestly, what I do expect, because I do have this not infrequently where, like, out of nowhere, something will just smack me across the face or it's, oh, this reminds me of this thing this thing I read. Could be ten years later. Could be five years later.

甚至可能明天就会发生。我已经全副武装地准备好迎接这本书带来的冲击了，只是不知道它何时会降临。

Could be tomorrow. I am fully locked and loaded for when that's gonna happen with this book, and I don't know when it's gonna hit.

你提到的现实细节让我想起件事。我之前都不知道能给这个空间站寄送关怀包裹？

Your thing about practical details reminded me of something. I didn't realize you could send care packages to this space station?

什么？蜂窝状的？等等，我什么？光是想到在太空中需要脆脆的食物这个细节就...

What? The honeycomb? Also, I what? And even just the the detail about having something crunchy in space because

其他所有被渴望的东西都是因为其他所有东西都是加工过的糊状物。当她——是的，当宇航员内尔拿出她丈夫提到的蜂巢时，那让我震惊不已。而且，这还让整个体验感觉像是在夏令营，某种程度上就像是的。和一群陌生的随机人士在这个与你自己的世界相距甚远的地方，你与家非常疏离，但却有这些微小的提醒。

everything else craved is because everything else is processed mush. That the when she yeah. When Nell, the astronaut, brings out the honeycomb that her husband has said, that blew my mind. And also, it like makes the whole experience feel like being at summer camp, in a which in a way is like being Yeah. With a bunch of random strangers in this world that is far removed from your own, and you have these you're very disconnected from home but have these tiny reminders.

我当时就想，当宇航员是不是就像去夏令营一样？

And I was like, is is being an astronaut just going to camp?

最危险的夏天

The most dangerous summer

夏令营。是的。甚至不是在地球上，是在地球之外。直到现在我才意识到，但他们就像是一个小小的、紧密的殖民地。而且想到他们有蜂巢，这想法真是。

camp ever. Yeah. Not even on Earth off Earth. It didn't even hit me until now, but, like, they are such a communal, like, little colony. And just the idea that it's like, they've got honeycomb.

就像，我们像蜜蜂一样思考，伙计。就像，这是一个美丽的小甜点。哦，天哪。我希望这个不会成功。我希望它能成功。

Like, we're thinking like bees, man. Like, it's it's a beautiful little sweet treat. Oh my god. I hope this doesn't make it. I hope it does.

我希望它能成功。

I hope it does.

MJ，救救我。你从这本书中会带走什么？

MJ, save me. What are you gonna take away from this book?

这本书让我想到了大写R浪漫主义中的崇高感，我这里有个小定义：那是一种令人敬畏的恐怖感受。这本书传递的就是这种情感，也是我一直在思考的。是的，提到浪漫主义我们总会想到树木和自然，所以在太空中体验崇高感真的很有趣。我从这本书中领悟到的，正如你们两位所说，就是停下来欣赏地球生命的机会，以及那些微小时刻的重要性。这些已经被说过了。

So this book brought up to me the capital r romanticism sense of the sublime, which I I have a little definition written up, which is the terrifying feeling of awe. That's what is channeled in this book, and that's what I kept thinking about. And, yeah, I think when you think of romanticism, we think about like trees and nature, so to have the sublime in space was really fun. The thing that I'm gonna take away from this book is, I think, what you both have said already, just like the the opportunity to pause and appreciate life on Earth and how the tiny moments really matter. That's already been said.

所以我要补充的是，我带走的是书中无数美丽的引文。那些美妙的句子。我可以念一段吗？

So the I'm gonna add the thing I'm gonna take away are the many, many beautiful quotes. The many beautiful quotes. Can I read one?

请念吧。

Please do.

这段有个爱心标记。我正在给演播室展示。

This is the one that has a heart. I'm showing it to the studio.

确认收到。

Can confirm.

在第13页，想跟读的可以翻到。从这里看地球宛如天堂，流淌着色彩，迸发出希望的色彩。当我们身处那颗星球时，仰望天空以为天堂在别处，但宇航员们有时会想——也许我们这些生于斯的人早已死去，此刻正身处来世。

But it's on page 13 if anyone wants to follow along. The earth from here is like heaven. It flows with color, a burst of hopeful color. When we're on that planet, we look up and think heaven is elsewhere, but here is what the astronauts and cosmonauts sometimes think. Maybe all of us born to it have already died and are in an afterlife.

如果死后必须前往某个难以置信的奇异之地，那个闪烁着美丽孤寂光芒的玻璃般遥远星球，或许就是归宿。这是其中一段。另一段在第173页：时间带着它惯常的虚无主义向前推移，将我们全部碾碎，对我们渴望生存的意愿惊人地麻木。几乎每一页都有这些关于生命意义的绝美瞬间。

If we must go to an improbable, hard to believe in place when we die, that glassy distant orb with its beautiful lonely light shows could well be it. So that's one. Another quote, one seventy three. Time moves on with its usual nihilism, mows us all down, jaw droppingly insensate to our preference for living. There are these just every page has these beautiful, beautiful moments of of what it means to be alive.

我还想读另一段，在第134页，内容是：五十亿年后，当地球早已消亡，这首情歌将比熄灭的恒星更长久，而这要归功于被送入太空的那张唱片。这些引文如此美丽动人，情感丰沛，让我爱不释手。我还——

One other one that I wanted to read is on page one thirty four, and it's just in five billion years when Earth is long dead, it will be a love song that outlives spent suns, and that's because of that record that's been sent to space. They're just they're they're these beautiful, emotionally free to add quotes that I just love. I also I had a

我手机里有个备忘录专门记录遇到的精彩引文，通过语音输入保存下来，因为我想记住它们。

whole there was a note on my phone where I kept dictating quotes as I came across them because I wanted to remember them.

有特别喜欢的吗？

Any favorites?

天啊，太多了。这些都没标页码，听众得自己找找。我特别喜欢书中早期部分，俄罗斯宇航员罗曼谈到他如何记录在太空的每一分钟——换了多少次衬衫，刷了多少次牙。哈维写道，他这么做不是为了虚度光阴，而是试图将时间锚定在可计量的事物上。

Oh, man. There are so many. I don't have page numbers for any of these, so listeners will have to hunt around. I really loved there's a part early in the book where Roman, who's one of the Russian astronauts, was talking about how he catalogs every minute that he has spent in space, how many minutes how many times he has changed his shirt, how many times he has brushed his teeth. And Carvey writes that he does this not to wish the time away, but to try to tether it to something countable.

我超爱这段。说到喜爱的段落，虽然本期节目时间所剩不多，但结束前我想分享些读者评论——或者说读者引文——再推荐几本受《轨道》启发的书。先说说读者评论吧。这个月我们在线上书俱乐部围绕《轨道》展开了热烈讨论。

I love that quote. And speaking of quits that I love, I know we are running out of time in this episode. But before we go, I just wanna shout out some reader comments, some reader quotes, if you will, and then share some Orbital inspired book recommendations. Let's do those reader comments first. This month, we have had this robust conversation online on our book club hub for Orbital.

《纽约时报》网站有篇题为'书俱乐部：与书评同读萨曼莎·哈维的《轨道》'的文章。全球读者都在分享读后感，我想重点提几条令我印象深刻的评论。首先是俄亥俄州的朱莉写道：'这本书太棒了，我爱它的语言，但最打动我的是那种悬浮在距地250英里处、意识到那些区隔我们、分类我们、定义我们的事物其实无足轻重的感觉。在那一刻，我成了短暂栖息在这颗壮观星球上的地球居民。'

There's an article on the New York Times' website headlined book club, read Orbital by Samantha Harvey with book review. Readers from all over the world have been sharing their thoughts about the book. I just wanted to jump in and highlight a few comments that stood out to me. First, we have Julie from Ohio who writes, the book was great. I love the language of it, but what resonated most was the feeling of hovering 250 miles above the planet and knowing that the things that divide us, the things that categorize us, the things that define us are unimportant.

纽约的尤瓦尔说：'萨曼莎·哈维以静谧的张力平衡了人类视角与宇宙视角，其结果是一种令人不安的开放式结局，一种失重感。'如果你不喜欢这本书，也并非孤例。匹兹堡的科尔读者写道：'在太空中，没人听得见你打哈欠'——我觉得这评价虽苛刻，却带着诗意的忧伤。最后再分享一条我特别喜爱的评论。

I became an earthling, living on a spectacular planet for a very brief moment. Yuval from New York says, Samantha Harvey manages to balance the human and the cosmic perspective with quiet tension, and the result is a disquieting, open endedness, a weightlessness. If you didn't love the book, you're not alone. One reader, Cole in Pittsburgh, wrote and said, in space, no one can hear you yawn, which I thought was very harsh and but very poetically sad. And then just one other last comment that I really loved.

来自都柏林的迈克尔说，初次阅读时我并不喜欢这本书。它节奏太慢，步调过于平淡。但随着深入阅读，我逐渐欣赏起它的独特风格。那些不急于推进剧情却将你牢牢抓住、让你悬停于深邃黑暗之上的优美文字。

Michael from Dublin says, on first reading, I wasn't a fan of this book. It was too slow. It was too pedestrian in terms of pace. As I spent more time with it, however, I grew to enjoy its modus operandi. Beautiful prose that doesn't always take you forward, but grabs you and holds you over the unfathomable blackness.

这只是众多精彩评论中的几则。网络上还有更多讨论。再次提醒，网站首页有萨曼莎·哈维所著《轨道》的书评专栏。去看看其他读者的见解吧。我要向所有参与评论和共读的朋友们致以衷心感谢。

Those are just a few of the comments that stood out. There's a lot more conversation happening online. Again, there is a website headlined book club read orbital by Samantha Harvey with the book review. Go check out what other readers have to say there. I I just wanna say huge thank you to everyone who commented and who read along with us.

最后但同样重要的是，在我们结束前要提到的书籍推荐环节。这个推荐范围会很宽泛且模糊——某种程度上这正是本书的特质。所以我想问问大家：读完《轨道》后你会推荐什么书？不必局限于太空题材，也可以是让你产生冥想感的作品。

And last but not least, before we go, those aforementioned book recommendations. This recommendation segment is gonna be very broad, amorphous, partially because that's what the book is. So I'm gonna ask the room, what is something that you would recommend readers pick up after orbital? This does not have to be specifically a book about space. It could be a book that also made you feel meditative.

可以是文风相近的书，也可以是描写台风的书。完全由你决定。现在就想听听大家：你会选择哪本书与《轨道》搭配阅读？

It could be a book with a similar prose style. It could be a book with a typhoon. Up to you. I'm just gonna ask the room, what is a book that you would pair with Orbital?

这个推荐可能有些另类，因为它既非虚构文学也与太空无关——但在阅读过程中我不断想起并渴望重读的是原住民植物学家罗宾·沃尔·基默尔的《编织香草》。如果说《轨道》是以数百万英里外视角观察地球与人类体验的宏观之作，那么《编织香草》恰恰构成了另一极——它聚焦微观世界，细致入微地探讨人类与自然的关系，直至土壤叶片根系的层面。尽管是部非虚构作品，我发现基默尔的文字同样充满诗意且令人沉思。与本书相似，每次阅读时我都会沉浸于某个章节，细细品味特定篇章后花时间消化思考。

So this might be a a slightly left field recommendation because it is neither fiction nor at all related to space. But the book that I found myself thinking about a lot as I read this and wanting to return to again was Braiding Sweetgrass, which is by the indigenous botanist Robin Wall Kimmerer. If Orbital is the most zoomed out version of a book looking at Earth and the human experience from millions of miles away, then Braiding Sweetgrass is the sort of juxtaposed the other the other pole of that, which is the most zoomed in view looking at humans and our relationship to the natural world down to the speck of dirt leaf root level. And even though it is a nonfiction book and not fiction, I also found I find Kimmerer's writing so lyrical and also very meditative. And similarly to this, I think is a book that every time I read it, I find myself dipping in for a chapter, really soaking in one particular essay of the book and then taking some time to process coming.

这本书非常适合碎片化阅读，它促使我不断反思自己与地球、与人类社群乃至与非人类生命群体的关系，堪称绝佳的阅读伴侣。

It's a book that's very easy to, like, dip in and out of that found me asking questions about my relationship to Earth and to the community of humans and and nonhuman living beings on this Earth, and that I found to be a nice companion.

这个推荐太棒了。

I love that.

而且可以

And can

我能不能说，我真的很喜欢那些陪伴型书籍？嗯。不仅仅是用来读的书，而是能陪伴你、在你脑海中回响、让你随时可以回归如同回家般的书。所以谢谢你。你呢，乔玛娜？

I just say, I love having, in general, companion books? Mhmm. Books that you just not just books that you read, but books that keep you company, that clank around in the back of your mind, that you can always return to like coming home. So thank you. What about you, Jomana?

我有两本。好吧。这本小说最打动我的是那种人物被封闭的感觉。如果你和我一样，这种设定会让你大脑兴奋一下，我强烈推荐吉尔·西蒙特的《问题中的身体》。它讲的是两名陪审员在一场谋杀案审判期间相爱，当时他们被选入陪审团。

I have two. My okay. One of the things that I responded to most in this novel was the feeling of how cloistered these people are. And if you are like me and that kind of made your brain light up a little bit, I really love the novel, The Body in Question by Jill Simont. It's about two jurors who fall in love during a murder trial when they're empaneled.

所以他们就在佛罗里达中部的经济旅馆附近闲逛，去芝士蛋糕工厂那样的地方，坠入爱河，一根接一根地抽烟。这本书精彩之处在于，很大一部分情节聚焦于案件结束后，他们如何跌跌撞撞、视野受限地重新回到现实世界。你能感受到那种氛围的转变。

So they're just sort of like kicking around these, like, Econo Lodges in Central Florida and going to, like, the Cheesecake Factory and, like, falling in love and chain smoking. So and it's it's amazing because, like, the a big part of that book, like, hinges on what it's like for them to sort of stagger, blinker back into the real world when the case is over. So you have that sort of, like, atmospheric change.

我能快速说两点吗？第一，我脑海中浮现的是那个节目《陪审团义务》的文学版。

Can I say two quick things? One is that I am picturing the literary version of that show jury duty.

是那样

Is that

的感觉吗？基本上，

what this is like? Basically,

是的。是的。

yes. Yes.

然后第二点，除了她的回忆录《同意》之外，我没有读过乔斯林的其他作品，我个人非常喜欢这本书。我觉得它非常有深度。

And then two, I have not read any other Jocelyn other than her memoir, Consent, which I personally really loved. I thought it was so thoughtful.

我一本她的书都没读过。乔斯林太棒了。我要把这两本都加入我的书单。

I haven't read any of her. Jocelyn's amazing. I'm gonna add both of these to my list

很好。她非常聪明。是的。我我这本书和《同意》很不一样。她有着狂野的智慧，能够将其驯服并写入书中。

good. She's so smart. And yeah. I I this is very different than consent. She has such wild intelligence to her that she manages to, like, wrestle down into books.

我想到的另一本书是《成就》。非常直白，MJ开始试图激发灵感。我当时想，太空书。好吧。《美丽星球》，玛丽·海伦·贝尔蒂诺的作品。

The other book that I'm thinking of is Accomplis. Very literal where MJ sort of started trying to get the juices flowing. And I was like, Spacebook. Okay. Beautyland, Marie Helene Bertino.

这其实是一部非常温馨的小说。有点像反向的轨道，或者几乎像是反向的罗夏测试，有一个叫阿迪娜的小太空生物被送到地球，试图在人类中寻找自己的位置。它实际上帮助你更好地理解我们的共性和差异。这是一本有趣的书。有趣。

This is actually a very sweet novel. It's like orbital in reverse and sort of like like reverse Rorschach test almost where it's like, there's a little, like, space creature who's sent down to Earth named Adina and, like, tries to make her way in among humanity. And it actually helps you arrive at some greater understanding of our commonalities and our differences. And it's just a it's a fun book. Fun.

谢谢你的推荐。我也有一些推荐。第一篇是莱斯利·贾米森的散文《为糖精辩护》，收录在她的散文集《同理心考试》中。但读完这篇后，我在想，为什么我会情绪激动，为什么我会为此感到有点尴尬？

Thank you for the recommendation. So I have a few recommendations. The first is the essay, End Defense of Saccharine by Leslie Jamieson. This is in her essay collection, The Empathy Exams. But after I finished reading this, I was like, why am I a ball of emotion, and why do I feel a little bit embarrassed by this?

因此我渴望一些慰藉。我想深入思考这个问题，而《为糖精辩护》正是这样一篇文章。其次，谈到宏大情感，不得不提乔治·桑德斯。我认为他的作品充满博爱情怀，我个人非常喜欢他的短篇集《十二月十日》，而《林肯在中阴》更是本充满鬼魂的奇书，故事设定在另一个阈限空间。

And so I wanted some comfort. I wanted to think through that, and in defense of saccharin is exactly that essay. Second, speaking of big feelings, is George Saunders. I think George Saunders' books just have a big heart. I personally really love his story collection, the December 10, but also Lincoln and the Bardo is a very strange book filled with ghosts, and it's set in another liminal space.

所谓'中阴'，简单来说类似炼狱，但它探讨的是悲痛、生存的意义以及我们随身携带的东西等深刻命题。有读者在评论区说这本书宛如'太空版的弗吉尼亚·伍尔夫'，我完全赞同。所以我想推荐两部作品：其一是《达洛维夫人》，用精炼框架展现宏大图景；其二是《到灯塔去》，将漫长人生浓缩于几个场景。大家快去读读伍尔夫吧。

This is a Bardo, which is for lack of a better explanation, like a purgatory, but it's grappling with grief and what it's like to be alive and what we take with us, all of that good stuff. There was a reader in our comment section who said that this book is like reading Virginia Woolf in space, and I completely agree. And so I wanted to recommend, one, is missus Dalloway talk about a tight frame, big picture. And then two, to the lighthouse, which also a lot of life folded into a few scenes. So go check out Virginia Woolf.

既恢弘壮阔又细致入微。

Sweeping and intimate at the same time.

最后我想推荐《更广阔的荒野》，因为要讨论浪漫主义与自然主题。这本书淋漓尽致地展现了迷失、孤独与令人战栗的敬畏感。以上就是我的全部推荐。

And I guess the last one, because I wanna talk about romanticism and nature and all that stuff, is the Vaster Wilds. Talk about feeling lost and alone and isolated and in a terrifying awe. So that's what I got.

这些推荐就像万花筒般丰富多彩，恰恰说明这本小书里藏着多么广阔的探索空间。

I love this real kaleidoscope of recommendations we've got here, which I think speaks a lot to how much there is to explore in this very tiny book.

这本书确实打开了广阔的天地。很遗憾，我们今天的节目时间到了。杰玛娜、珍，非常感谢你们。

It's a book that opens up quite a lot. I think, unfortunately, that's all the time we have for today. So I just wanna say, Gemana, Jen, thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

谢谢大家，今天真是太愉快了。

Thank you. This was so much fun.

谢谢你，MJ。

Thank you, MJ.

我只想对每一位与我们共读的读者说声谢谢。再次提醒，我们有一篇题为书评专栏的文章《轨道》，作者萨曼莎·哈维，书评内容可在线上阅读。欢迎在那里继续讨论。现在是我们三月重磅书评的时间。三月我们将共读香港作家所著的《我们不离不弃》。

And I just wanna say thank you to everyone who read along with us. Again, we have an article headlined book club, Read Orbital by Samantha Harvey with the book review online. Continue the conversation there. And now is the time for our big March book review. In March, we will be reading We Do Not Part by Hong Kong.

希望大家能加入我们。目前《纽约时报》官网上已发布相关文章——想必你们已猜到内容——正是读书会专栏，推荐阅读香港的《我们不离不弃》。

I hope you'll join us. Right now, there's an article up on the New York Times' website. I bet you can guess what it is. It is a book club. Read We Do Not Part by Hong Kong.

配合书评文章，你可以直接参与线上讨论。我们将在3月28日播出的播客节目中探讨这本书。届时再见，祝大家阅读愉快。

With the book review, you can jump into the conversation online. We will be talking about the book on the podcast that airs on March 28. So we'll see you then, but until next time, happy reading.

刚才听到的是MJ·富兰克林、朱玛尼卡·蒂布和珍妮弗·哈伦讨论萨曼莎·哈维的《轨道》，这是我们每月书评读书会的活动内容。我是《纽约时报》书评编辑吉尔伯特·克鲁兹，感谢您的收听。

That was MJ Franklin, Jumanika Thib, and Jennifer Harlan talking about Samantha Harvey's Orbill as part of our monthly book review book club. I'm Gilbert Cruz, editor of the New York Times Book Review. Thank you for listening.