埃德蒙·菲茨杰拉德号沉没50周年

你好，我是《纽约时报》游戏的朱丽叶，今天来和玩家们聊聊我们的游戏。你玩《纽约时报》的游戏。是的，每天都玩。

Hi. I'm Juliette from New York Times games, and I'm here talking to fans about our games. You play New York Times games. Yes. Every day.

下面有个小标签叫'朋友'，你可以在这里添加好友。

There's this little tab down here called friends. So you could add your friend.

这功能对我来说很新鲜。

That feels new to me.

确实是新功能。

It is.

有社交元素真不错。

It's nice to have the social aspect.

天啊，还能看到所有人的通关时间。

Oh my god. And you have all their times.

太疯狂了。

That's crazy.

对吧？你可以看看拼字比赛、Wordle、词语接龙这些。天啊，太棒了，我超爱。

Right? You can look at spelling bee, Wordle, connections. Oh my god. Amazing. Love that.

我得下载这个应用。

I'll have to get the app.

《纽约时报》游戏订阅用户可完整体验所有游戏和功能。立即访问nytimes.com/games获取特别优惠订阅。

New York Times game subscribers get full access to all our games and features. Subscribe now at nytimes.com/games for a special offer.

我是吉尔伯特·克鲁兹，《纽约时报书评》的编辑，这里是书评播客。这可以说是美国历史上最著名的沉船事件。五十年前的11月10日（1975年11月10日），SS埃德蒙·菲茨杰拉德号在苏必利尔湖沉没，全员遇难。由于没有幸存者和目击者，菲茨杰拉德号的沉没始终笼罩着神秘色彩。再加上一首意外走红的歌曲——戈登·莱特富特的民谣《埃德蒙·菲茨杰拉德号的沉没》，也就不难理解这艘五大湖货轮的故事为何能流传至今。

I'm Gilbert Cruz, editor of the New York Times Book Review, and this is the book review podcast. It's arguably the most famous shipwreck in American history. Fifty years ago this month on 11/10/1975, the SS Edmund Fitzgerald went down in Lake Superior with all hands aboard. With no survivors and no eyewitnesses to the disaster, there's always been a sense of mystery around the sinking of the Fitzgerald. Add to that a surprise hit song, Gordon Lightfoot's ballad, The Wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald, and it's no surprise that the story of the Great Lakes freighter has lived on for all these decades.

本周我们邀请到约翰·U·培根，他是新书《盖尔斯号：埃德蒙·菲茨杰拉德号不为人知的故事》的作者。约翰，感谢做客书评播客。

This week, we are joined by John U Bacon, author of the new book, The Gales of The Untold Story of the Edmund Fitzgerald. John, thank you for being on the Book Review podcast.

嘿，吉尔伯特。谢谢你。

Hey, Gilbert. Thank you.

看得出你是地道的美国中西部人。我是纽约人，东海岸的。虽然对中西部了解不如预期，但我能感觉到埃德蒙·菲茨杰拉德号的故事在那里萦绕不去。你最早是什么时候听说这艘船的？

Now you appear to be a Midwesterner through and through. I am a New Yorker, an East Coaster. I don't know the Midwest as well as I would like, but I I get a sense that the story of the Edmund Fitzgerald is one that sort of lingers there. When do you first recall hearing about this ship?

首先，所有观点都正确。其次，没错。事故发生的第二天早晨。在《今日秀》节目上，我当时是个六年级学生正要去上学，看着节目，等我们到了六年级后全班都讨论过这件事。这无疑已成为我们这里时代精神的一部分。

Right on all points, first of all. And second of all, yes. The morning after the accident. On the Today Show, I was a sixth grader going to school, watching the show and we all talked about it once we got to sixth grade, my class. And that's always been a part of the zeitgeist around here, certainly.

所以有八个州与五大湖接壤，我想每个人对此都有自己的故事。你在哪里长大的？密歇根州安娜堡。你是在

So eight states border the Great Lakes, and I think everyone has got their own story about it pretty much. And where did you grow up? In Ann Arbor, Michigan. You grew

密歇根长大的。你写过几本关于密歇根橄榄球的书。你曾在几家中西部报社工作，现在你转向这个已有自己传奇色彩的故事。是什么引导你关注这个过去几十年来以各种不同方式被讲述的故事？

up in Michigan. You've written several books about Michigan football. You've worked at several Midwestern newspapers, and now you're turning to this tale that sort of has its own legend. What was the thing that led you to this story, which has been told in various different ways over the past many decades?

我在五大湖区长大，每个湖都曾去过。确实在普林斯顿住过一段时间，也为《纽约时报》《时代杂志》写过稿，还有家老店和窒息者乐队。但不可否认是个吃玉米长大的男孩。咱们就认了吧。

I grew up on all the Great Lakes. I've been on all of them at some point or other. And I did live in Princeton for a little while and written for New York Times, Time Magazine, year old shop and smothers. But undeniably a corn fed boy. So let's own that.

但当你在这些湖上时，总有种萦绕不散的感觉。东部的人不明白，当你在这些湖上时，你是看不到对岸的。它们就是那么辽阔。不是因为雾气或薄雾，而是因为地球曲率。你无法看穿密歇根湖或休伦湖。所以这始终是故事的一部分。

But it kind of haunts you when you're on these lakes And people out east don't realize when you're on one of these lakes, you can't see across them. They're that big. And it's not because the mist or the fog, it's because of the curvature of the earth. You cannot see across Lake Michigan or Lake Huron. So it's always part of it.

当然那首歌在这里肯定被循环播放，我想全国范围内也差不多。驱使我研究这个的，我知道其中很大一部分是它的神秘性——我身后这摞为写书而读的书籍，几乎都属于我所谓的'侦探小说'类，试图查明真相，这绝非易事，我承认。但真正驱使我的不是这个，而是那29名船员。我对他们一无所知。

Of course the song plays endlessly around here certainly, and I think it does somewhat nationally. And what drove me on this, the mystery of it I know is a big part of it and this stack of books behind me that I've read for this book, almost all of them are in the what I call the whodunit class trying to figure out exactly what happened, which is no small task, I grant you. But that's not what drove me. It's the 29 men. I didn't know anything about them.

我不知道他们是谁，甚至不知道他们的名字，他们的工作是什么样的，生活如何，航运为何重要？五大湖是什么样子？你要从他们的视角而非我的视角来看待。还有那些家庭，他们住在哪里？失去父亲、叔叔、堂兄弟，有时甚至是男友后，他们如何生存？

I didn't know who they were, their names even, what their jobs were like, what their lives are like, why does shipping matter? What are the Great Lakes like? And you see it from their point of view and not mine. And even what the families are like, where do they live? How do they survive without their father and their uncle and their cousin, in some cases, their boyfriends?

所以我想要查明这一切。这至少是我的故事中未被讲述的部分。我采访了六位从未接受过媒体采访的船员家属——当然他们本人当晚并不在船上，因为29名船员全部随船沉没。其中包括两位当年在船上工作过的人，他们认识船员，了解船长，知道所有内情。我还联系了半数遇难者家庭，29人中的14位。

So I wanted to find all that out. And that is the untold story of my story at least. I got to six crewmen who had never talked to the media before, who obviously were not in the ship that night because all 29 did go down with the ship. Including two guys who were on the ship that year, who knew the crew, knew the captain, all this. And I got to half the families, 14 of the 29.

所以这确实是未被讲述的故事。而且他们之前从未对记者透露过这些。

So that truly is the untold story. And none of them ever talked to a reporter before.

我一定要问问你是如何接触到这些家属的。正如你所说，这才是故事中未被讲述的部分。对于那些可能只通过Lightfoot的歌曲了解埃德蒙·菲茨杰拉德号事件的人，能否请你尽可能简洁地讲述一下当晚发生的基本情况？这本书讲述的是这艘船的历史，涉及许多方面。

I am definitely gonna ask you about the families and how you gained access to them. That is, as you say, the untold story here. For those who perhaps only know the story of the Edmund Fitzgerald through the Lightfoot song, I was wondering if you could give us as as tightly as you can a a basic story of what happened on that night. This book is about the history of the ship. It's about a lot of things.

但那天晚上究竟发生了什么？

But what happened on that night?

首先，埃德蒙·菲茨杰拉德号实际上是那个时代的泰坦尼克号。嗯。它下水时是五大湖区300艘船中最伟大的船只，这个称号可不简单。它是最大的，最快的之一，打破了五大湖区所有的货运记录。

First of the Emma Fitzgerald was in fact the Titanic of its era. Mhmm. When it was launched, it was the greatest ship on the Great Lakes out of 300. That's no small title. It was the biggest, it was one of the fastest, it broke all the records in the Great Lakes for cargo.

它既是重量级选手，又是短跑健将，更是劳动能手，集所有优点于一身。而且它绝对是五大湖区最著名的船只。人们会在德卢斯、苏水闸、密歇根州的苏圣玛丽、底特律、休伦港、托莱多等地等候，只为看这艘船经过并为之欢呼。它当时就是如此重要。

It was a heavyweight, it was a sprinter, it was a workhorse, it was all the above. And it was by far the most famous ship on the Great Lakes. People would wait in Duluth and at the Soo Locks, at Sault Ste. Marie, Michigan, Detroit, Port Huron, Toledo, to see this ship go by and cheer it on. It was that big a deal actually.

于是在那个夜晚，形成了完美风暴。两股风暴同时来袭，一股来自加拿大西部，一股来自美国西南部。这当然绝非好事。它们在苏必利尔湖上空合并——这是五大湖中面积最大、位置最北的湖泊，正好位于白鱼湾前方，就像捕手守卫本垒板一样。

So on that night, had the perfect storm. You had two storms coming in. One from Western Canada, one from Southwest United States. That's never good, of course. And they combine over Lake Superior, the biggest and the most northern of the lakes, right in front of Whitefish Bay, like a catcher guarding home plate.

这就是他们试图达到的目标。嗯。他们只掌握了一半的信息。预测和沟通都相当马虎，很不幸。所以他们对此知之甚少。

And that's what they're trying to get to. Mhmm. And they only knew about half that information. The forecasting, the communication was pretty lackadaisical, unfortunately. So they didn't know much about that.

那天晚上，FITS所在的位置，我的一位专家根据他们运行的计算机模型指出，它偏偏在最糟糕的时间出现在了最糟糕的地点。这意味着每小时100英里的风速——相当于飓风强度，以及平均30英尺（约10个40英尺高）的浪高，我们测算出还有三四个50英尺高的巨浪，甚至可能有一两个60英尺高的浪。试想一下，这艘船仅高出水面11英尺，却载着2.6万吨铁矿石。这还是在风平浪静的日子，而今天显然不是。所以每隔4到8秒，这艘船就会被一栋六层楼高的水墙淹没。

That night, where the FITS itself was, and one of my experts said, based on computer models they've run since, it managed to find itself in the exact wrong place at the exact wrong time. And that means 100 mile per hour winds, that is hurricane force, and waves that were on average 30, but about 10 that were 40, and we can calculate three or four that were 50 foot waves, and one or two probably 60 foot waves. Consider for a moment, this ship only has 11 feet out of the water carrying 26,000 tons of iron ore. And that's on a good day, and this is not a good day. So this thing is getting swamped by a six story building of water every four to eight seconds.

这可不妙。

That's not good.

我记得大概高中时，《完美风暴》这部电影上映了。海报上是一艘小渔船正迎向有史以来最大的巨浪。当你说有几波浪时，实际是三十、四十甚至五十英尺高的浪，这对我来说简直难以置信。

I remember maybe when I was in high school, the film A Perfect Storm came out. The poster of that film is a small fishing trawler that is coming up against what looks like the biggest wave that has ever existed. When you say there are a couple of waves out there, there were thirty, forty, 50 feet even higher maybe, that that just seems unfathomable to me.

对我来说也是。我认识一些在五大湖和大西洋航行三四十年的专家。他们说，曾见过20英尺高的浪，相信我，那已经够受的了。20英尺的浪足以让情况瞬间恶化。所以你说得对。

And happily to me also. I've got some experts who've been in the Great Lakes and the Atlantic Ocean for thirty, forty years. And they said, you know, I saw 20 foot of waves once, and trust me, that's enough. Things go wrong very quickly with 20 foot waves naturally. So you're right about that.

这艘船长729英尺，只比底特律文艺复兴中心矮一英尺——那是多伦多和芝加哥之间最大的建筑，有73层楼高。尺寸差异巨大，但船宽仅75英尺，比棒球本垒到一垒的距离还短15英尺。这种奇特尺寸的成因有两个，而且这类船只在世界其他地方都不会建造。

And this ship was 729 feet long. That's one foot short of Detroit's Renaissance Center, the biggest building between Toronto and Chicago. A 73 story building. So very different dimensions, but only 75 feet wide, which is less than home plate to first base by 15 feet. And the reason for these crazy dimensions, and these ships are built nowhere else in the world, two things.

你自然想从北方湖区（那里有铁矿、木材、铜矿、石灰石等各种资源）尽可能多地运载货物，送往印第安纳州加里市、芝加哥、底特律、托莱多和克利夫兰。所有货物都必须通过一个非常狭窄的瓶颈——苏圣玛丽水闸，它位于密歇根上半岛的顶端，与加拿大接壤。因此这些船只的长宽比达到了10:1，这种比例在远洋船只中绝不会出现。这也使得它们在汹涌的海面上格外脆弱。

You wanna carry as much cargo as you possibly can naturally from the Northern Lakes where the iron ore is, the lumber, the copper, the limestone, you name it, and get it down to Gary, Indiana, Chicago, Detroit, Toledo, Cleveland. It all has to slip through this very narrow bottleneck called the Soo Locks, which is at the tip of the Upper Peninsula Of Michigan, bordering Canada. So that's why they are 10 to one ratio of length to width, which again, you'd never build this in the ocean and they don't. So that makes it fragile in rough seas.

我不确定自己是否真的见过埃德蒙·费兹杰罗号的照片。不久前第一次看到时，我的反应是：这看起来不像是真实的船只。为什么这艘船会这么长？

I don't know that I had ever seen a photo actually of the Edmund Fitzgerald. And when I first saw it not too long ago, I had that reaction. I said, this does not look like a real ship. Why is this why is this ship so long?

这有点像长颈鹿的脖子。进化让它变得非常奇特。没错。而且我登上过当晚与费兹杰罗号同行的两艘船——亚瑟·安德森号和威尔福德·赛克斯号。所以我非常幸运

Well, it's kind of like a giraffe's neck. Evolution has made it very odd. Yeah. And I've been on two of these ships, the Arthur Andersen and the Wilford Sykes that were out with the Fitzgerald that night. So I got very lucky on

这样啊。嗯。

that. Mhmm.

你必须亲自登上这些船，才能理解它们的庞大规模和怪异尺寸。你说得对。如果你住在东海岸或西海岸，你从没见过这种样子的船。

You have to get on these things to even understand the scale of these things and the bizarre dimensions. And you're right. If you live on the East Coast or the West Coast, you have never seen a ship that looks like this.

是啊。我可是个海洋男孩。所以这些船对我来说相当震撼。你的书既讲述了费兹杰罗号，也讲述了让它在其时代如此重要的一切。这是艘船的故事。

Yeah. I'm I'm an ocean boy. So, yeah, these ships were quite surprising to me. Your book is as much a story of everything that made the Fitzgerald so important in its time as it is the Fitzgerald. It's a story of the ship.

这是关于船上船员和他们家人的故事。但特别在早期，这是五大湖的故事。是关于环湖工业的故事。是关于二十世纪中叶这个产业为何对美国至关重要的故事。为什么在讲述船只、船员、家属和灾难之前，必须把这些线索编织进故事的前半部分。

It's a story of the men on board and their families. But particularly early on, it's a story of the lakes. It's a story of the industry around the lakes. It's a story of why that industry was important to America in the middle of the twentieth century. Why were all those things necessary to weave throughout the early part of the story before you get to the ship, the men, the families, the disaster.

当我深入了解埃玛·费兹杰罗号的特殊性后，我意识到它是这座巨大金字塔的顶端——金字塔的基底是明尼苏达州的铁矿石，而约翰·D·洛克菲勒是第一个想出如何盈利开采的人，当然他做到了。嗯。但那些钢材、铜矿、石灰石、谷物、木材，你车道上停的汽车，地下室的混凝土，餐桌上的食物，都来自五大湖区。即便作为吃着玉米长大的中西部人，我也是在做这项研究时才真正理解这点。

Once I learned more about the Emma Fitzgerald and how special it was, I realized it is the apex of this very large pyramid that starts with iron ore in Minnesota, and John D. Rockefeller is the first guy to figure out how to get that out profitably, and of course he did. Mhmm. But that steel, the steel, the copper, the limestone, the grain, the lumber, all this stuff, the car in your driveway, the cement in your basement, and the food in your table, it comes from the Great Lakes. And I did not fully appreciate that even being a corn fed Midwesterner until I started doing the research here.

从1945年到1975年，这个在二战中作为民主国家兵工厂的行业，最终成为了世界经济的中心。它堪称硅谷之前的硅谷，甚至在某种程度上更胜一筹。如今硅谷还要与西雅图、奥斯汀和中国竞争，而那三十年里基本上没有竞争对手。所以吉尔伯特，告诉你个有趣的事实，你可以在酒吧打赌时赢钱——除非对方先听了你的播客。

And from 1945 to 1975, the same industry that obviously was the arsenal of democracy in World War two, end up being the epicenter of the world economy. It was truly Silicon Valley before Silicon Valley, and in some ways, more so. Silicon Valley has Seattle to compete with Austin, the Chinese. There was no competition during those three decades, basically. So here's a fun fact you can win bar bets on, Gilbert, unless they hear your podcast first.

请说出这个五大湖区城市：它在1960年时比迈阿密、坦帕、杰克逊维尔、田纳西州的纳什维尔和加利福尼亚州的圣何塞都要大。

Name the Great Lake City that in 1960 was bigger than Miami, Tampa, Jacksonville, Nashville, Tennessee, and San Jose, California.

我觉得我知道答案，因为读过你的书，但可能会猜错。要我试试吗？可能是错的。是托莱多吗？

I feel like I know this because I read your book, but I might get it wrong. Should I guess? I might get it wrong. Go ahead. It Toledo?

正确答案是俄亥俄州的托莱多。答得好。

It is Toledo, Ohio. Well done.

我读过那本书。而你

I read the book. And you

通过了测验。俄亥俄州的托莱多当年比那五个城市都大。如今那五个城市共有11支职业联盟球队。我朋友克里斯汀·布伦南——早安美国节目和美国今日报的名记——她就来自托莱多。她说我们当年不用开车去底特律转机飞佛罗里达，

passed the quiz. Toledo, Ohio was bigger than all five of those. Those five cities now have 11 major league teams. So Christine Brennan of Good Morning America fame and USA Today, a friend of mine, she's from Toledo. She said, we didn't drive to Detroit to fly to Florida.

我们直接从托莱多起飞。那城市当年就有这么大的规模。

We flew from Toledo. It was that big.

这太不可思议了。五大湖，我得说，你在这里记录的是一个非常悲伤的故事，但奇怪的是它反而让我想去五大湖看看。它们看起来如此巨大、迷人，充满了自己惊人的历史。

That's incredible. The Great Lakes, I gotta say, this is a very sad story that you document here, but it actually made me wanna go to the Great Lakes in a perverse way. They just seem giant and fascinating and full of their own amazing history.

这可能是真的。其他一些评论家也说这是给五大湖的一封情书，虽然这不是我的本意，但我并不觉得被冒犯。五大湖确实被低估了。每当我有来自东西海岸、日本或西班牙的朋友来访，他们眺望湖面时都不敢相信。它们被称为甜水海洋，淡水湖。

That's probably true. And a few other reviewers have said that this is a love letter to the Great Lakes, and it was not really my intent, but I'm not offended by that. They're underestimated. And whenever I have friends in from either coast or Japan or Spain and they look across, they can't believe it. They're called the sweet water oceans, fresh water.

但如果要我指出研究中最让我惊讶的一点，那就是对于有经验的商业水手（不是帆船那种，而是货轮上的船员）来说，无论是在大洋还是五大湖航行，他们都认为五大湖比大西洋危险得多，而且差距悬殊。我永远都猜不到这一点。说实话，吉尔伯特，我需要十个专家都这么说才会相信。但他们的说法完全一致。

But if you had to pick one surprise that I had in doing this research, is that for the experienced commercial sailors, not the sailboat kind, but the kind on these freighters, in the ocean and in the Great Lakes. They say the Great Lakes are more dangerous than the Atlantic Ocean and it's not even close. And I would never have guessed that in a million years. And frankly, Gilbert, I needed 10 experts to tell me that before I actually believed that. But they all they're all consistent.

为什么这些水手认为五大湖比某些海洋更危险？

Why do these sailors say that the Great Lakes are more dangerous than some of the oceans?

简而言之有三个原因。第一是海水。海洋中的盐水会钝化浪尖，使波浪平缓舒展。所以大西洋的浪涌间隔是10到16秒，而五大湖的浪涌间隔只有4到8秒，这在风暴中自然很关键。

It's three things in a nutshell. One, saltwater. Saltwater on the oceans blunts the top of the waves, makes them nice and smooth, and spreads them out. So the waves on the Atlantic are ten to sixteen seconds apart. The waves in the Great Lakes are four to eight seconds apart, that can matter in a storm naturally.

其次是风暴。海洋上的风暴可能在500到1000英里外形成，而五大湖的被称为局地风暴，意味着暴风雨就在你头顶酝酿。我听过无数故事，也亲眼见过——这些风暴能以海洋通常达不到的速度骤然形成。

Also the storms, the storm you have on the ocean can be 500, a thousand miles away. And the Great Lakes are called locally occurring storms, which means the damping is right over your head. And I've I've heard countless stories. I've seen it myself. That these things can whip up very, very quickly in ways that the ocean usually can't.

第三点就是通航条件。在大洋上，你从纽约出发驶向葡萄牙后基本上可以开启自动驾驶。而在这里，只有三分之二的航程是开阔水域，还要经过运河、桥梁、浅滩、岛屿，当然还有其他船只，这让船长必须时刻保持警惕。顺便说一句，现在确实有女性船长了。

And the third thing is just the traffic aspect. In the ocean, of course, you leave New York and you point your ship towards Portugal and you can go on autopilot for basically. Here, only two thirds of a trip is open water. It's canals, bridges, shoals, islands, other ships naturally, and that keeps a captain on his or her toes. And these days, it is his and hers by the way.

这本书讲述的是这艘货轮的故事。你想象一艘货轮，满载铁矿石的货轮，满载我从未听说过的铁燧岩的货轮。你只会想到肮脏的船只。但正如你所说，菲茨杰拉德号确实享有外界的美誉。

This book is about this freighter. You think of a freighter. A freighter full of iron ore, a freighter full of taconite, a word I've never heard before. And you just think of a a filthy ship. But as you say, the Fitzgerald did have this outside reputation.

它不仅是五大湖区有史以来最宏伟的船只，在某些方面还相当奢华。船上会有享用美食的宾客，而且全程都不会沾上灰尘。它是如何获得这种声誉的？

Not only was it the grandest ship that the Great Lakes had ever seen, it was fancy at points, you know. It would have guests on who enjoyed amazing meals and and somehow did not get covered in or dust over the entirety of their trip. How did it get that reputation?

从设计之初，埃德蒙·菲茨杰拉德本人——西北互惠人寿保险公司的CEO（这家公司至今仍是巨头，去年营收310亿美元）、密尔沃基州参议员——在委托建造这艘船时就颁布了两道指令：第一，它将成为五大湖区各方面最出色的船只；第二，不得以他的名字命名。当然，当他离开会议室五分钟时，这条禁令就被打破了。船员们开了个玩笑，以8:0的投票结果决定命名。

By design, the man himself, Edmund Fitzgerald, was the CEO of Northwestern Mutual Life Insurance, still a gigantic concern, $31,000,000,000 I believe last year. Senator in Milwaukee, and he had two edicts when he commissioned the ship. One, it'd be the greatest ship in the Great Lakes in every way, and two, that they not name it after him. And of course, they quickly violated that when he left the boardroom for five minutes. One of their tricks they played on him basically and said, eight to nothing, the vote Neil.

他们打算叫它MFS杰拉德号。但他甚至希望这成为五大湖区最豪华的船只，这看似矛盾甚至浪费钱财——毕竟你运输的是2.6万吨铁矿石。虽然这些设施不是为你我准备的，但船上铺设了地毯，装饰着木质镶板。

It's gonna be called the MFS Gerald. But he wanted even to be the most luxurious chip on the Great Lakes, and that seems out of the oxymoronic if not a waste of money. You're hauling 26,000 tons of iron ore as you say. It's not for you and me per se, but they had carpeted living areas. They had wood paneling.

船上配有空调和电视，而1958年北方的酒店都还没有这些设施。厨房比任何酒店都高级，他们甚至从酒店聘请厨师来船上工作。为什么要这么做？看似浪费，但想拥有最优秀的船长和船员，满足他们的口腹之欲当然是个好方法。

They had air conditioning and TV when hotels in 1958 into the North didn't have that. And they had a galley that was better than any hotels and they would get chefs from hotels to work on these ships. And why do you do all that? It seems again a waste of money. You want the best captain, you want the best crew, get them through their bellies is not a bad way to do it of course.

他们还为VIP准备了两间华丽的特等舱，这些贵宾可能是国家钢铁公司或福特汽车的高管。猜猜看？他们就是你的客户。当你提供连金钱都买不到的体验——每年仅30次航程——时，客户自然趋之若鹜。

And they had two gorgeous staterooms for the VIPs that you mentioned. These are guys who run National Steel or Ford Motor Company. And guess what? They're your clients. So when you give them something that even money can't buy, only 30 trips a year, could you get on these ships for that?

虽然全年航行50次，但VIP航程只有30次。结果呢？每艘船都满载货物。他们从不需要等待客户或货物，更不用恳求别人使用他们的船只。永远拥有最优秀的船长和船员。

They go 50, but the VIP is gonna go 30. Guess what? You are loaded up every ship. They never had to wait for a client, for cargo, and they never had to beg people to take their ship. They had the best captain and the best crew always.

这个策略效果相当好。全部由JL Hudson公司指定，当时它是世界上最大的百货商店，总部在底特律，后来演变成Hudson Dayton等。但他们做得非常出色。

So that strategy worked quite well. And it was all appointed by JL Hudson, which at the time was the biggest department store in the world, based in Detroit, later on Hudson Dayton and all that. But they did a great job.

听你谈论菲茨杰拉德，这个男人渴望让他的公司船只成为内陆海域最伟大的存在。想到这个故事的所有不同层面。将铁矿石从一处尽快运到另一处的经济激励相当高。船长们竞争激烈。尽管我们常讨论天气对这场灾难的影响，虽然永远无法在经济因素与埃德蒙·菲茨杰拉德号沉没之间建立直接联系，但作为这些船只的船长，即使遇到一点恶劣天气也感觉必须全速前进，那是什么感受？

Hearing you talk about Fitzgerald, the man's desire to have his his company ship be the the greatest out there on the inland seas. Just thinking about all these different aspects of the story. The economic incentives for getting that iron from one point to another as quickly as possible were pretty high. And captains were competitive. And as much as we talk about the effects of the weather on this disaster, while one could never draw a direct connection between economics and the sinking of the Edmund Fitzgerald, what was it like to be a captain on one of these ships and feel like you needed to move as quickly as possible even if there was a little weather?

而这次遇到的天气相当恶劣。

In this case, it was a lot of weather.

这些人基本上和NFL教练处于同样的竞争领域。事实证明，这些事情的运作方式是——比如你要申请通过苏水闸，到达某个点后就要呼叫登记，先到先过。如果慢了30秒，可能就要多等一小时，因为通过苏水闸需要一小时。

These guys are basically in the same competitive field as an NFL coach. And it turns out the way these things work, you get flagged to get into the Soo Locks, for example. So you get to a certain point and you call it in whoever's there first goes next. It's first come first serve. If you lose by thirty seconds, you just lost that one by an hour, because it takes an hour to go through the Soo Locks.

当你在底特律、托莱多或克利夫兰卸货时，如果慢了一分钟，可能就要多等十四小时，因为卸货需要这么长时间。当然你可能对此有自己的看法，但你知道吗？克利夫兰的公司高层也有他们的看法。正如我的一位专家所说：那些人用钱包下注，而船上的人用生命下注。这种强迫性——贪婪当然是因素之一——驱动着一切。

And then when you're trying to unload in Detroit or Toledo or Cleveland, if you lose that one by a minute, you lose by fourteen hours, because that's how long it takes to unload one of these things. And okay, you may have your own opinions about that, but guess what? The corporate bosses in Cleveland have their own opinions about that. And as one of my experts said, those guys bet with their wallets, and the guys on board bet with their lives. So this compulsion, greed is certainly one aspect, drove everything.

除此之外，这些船长骨子里就是极度好胜的人，他们根本无法关闭这种竞争本能。

And then on top of that, built into it, is the DNA of these captains who end up being just highly competitive guys who really can't turn it off.

菲茨杰拉德号的船长欧内斯特·麦克索利被誉为当时最优秀的淡水船长之一，或许就是最优秀的。具有可怕讽刺意味的是，他本打算在1975年航季后退休。这位公认经验最丰富的船长，请给我们讲讲他的故事。

The captain of the Fitzgerald was known as one of the the best freshwater captains around, maybe the best at the time, Ernest McSorley. He, in a terrible irony, was supposed to or said he was going to retire after the 1975 season. Tell us about this man who, by all accounts, had more experience than almost anyone out there.

确实如此。在五大湖区的300名船员中，担任这艘船的船长是最令人艳羡的职位。这无疑是他职业生涯的巅峰。他31岁就当上了船长，是当时五大湖区最年轻的船长。到63岁时他仍在担任船长，这意味着他人生大半时光都在这个职位上。

That's true. And that was the plum assignment in the Great Lakes out of 300, was to be the captain of this ship. So it was a pinnacle of his career certainly. He became a captain at age 31, youngest in the Great Lakes at that time. And then he's still a captain of course at when he's 63, so that's more than half his life.

正如你所说，他被公认为五大湖区最优秀的船长。我引用一段1972年曾在船上工作过的克雷格·沙利文的原话：'我亲眼看着那人把729英尺长的钢铁巨轮停进两艘货船之间，两侧各只有五英尺空隙，却连一点漆都没蹭掉，就像在倒他的福特皮卡一样轻松。但与其他船长不同，他不是暴君也不是恶霸——而那个年代大多数船长都是这样，就像五十年前的教练、老师和老板那样。他深受爱戴，这非常罕见。'

By all accounts, the best captain on the Great Lakes as you say. I've got a great quote from Craig Sullivan, who'd been on the ship in 1972, who said, I saw that man park 729 feet of steel between two freighters with five feet in either side and didn't touch a damn thing, like he's backing up his Ford pickup truck. But unlike his peers, he was not a tyrant, he was not a bully, and most of these guys were. It's kinda like coaches and teachers and bosses fifty years ago. He was beloved, and that was very rare.

他深受爱戴的程度，甚至让船员们愿意跟随他从一艘船调到另一艘船。这种特质组合实属罕见。但正如你所说，他在那个航季开始前已向妻子承诺这会是他最后一个航季。驾驶室里其他五名老友也大多对妻子说过同样的话。后来他们又接了一趟额外航程，因为他已经超额完成了货运指标。

And so beloved that his crew would follow him from ship to ship to ship as he was promoted. So unusual combination of qualities. But as you say, he had promised his wife before that season started that this would be his last season. Five of his buddies in the pilot house mainly said the same thing to their wives. Then they tack on one more trip cause he's passed his quota for cargo.

这样他能拿到奖金。这笔奖金是用来支付妻子的医疗费用。当时他妻子因癌症（我记不太确切，但有人这么说过）住在24小时护理机构。所以这是为了她的治疗费用。

He gets a bonus. And this bonus is to pay for his wife's medical care. She's in twenty four hour facility at that point, I think for cancer. I can't quite nail that down, but some guys have said that. So this is for her medical care.

他并非贪婪，也不是自负。本质上他只是想照顾好大后方。如果好莱坞要拍这段故事，他们可能会觉得这情节太刻意了。

He's not being greedy. He's not being egotistical. He's trying to take care of home base, basically. So if you're writing this for Hollywood, they'd probably say too much. Yeah.

但这就是事实。

But this is true.

我们稍后回来。

We'll be right back.

互联网文化如何塑造全球各地的成人仪式？'跟我一起准备'视频又是如何触达新观众的？大家好，我是伊莎贝拉·鲁索里尼。在欧莱雅集团《这不是美容播客》最新一集中，我们将通过一位伦敦科技记者和一位准备十五岁成人礼的墨西哥少女，了解美妆如何影响互联网生态。

How is Internet culture shaping coming of age rituals around the world? And how are get ready with me videos reaching a new audience? Hi there. I'm Isabella Russolini. In the latest episode of this is not a beauty podcast from L'Oreal Group, we learn about how beauty is shaping the Internet from a London based tech journalist and a Mexican teenager preparing for her quinceanera.

立即在您喜爱的播客平台收听完整内容。

Listen now on your favorite podcast platform.

大家好，我是索拉娜·派恩，现任《纽约时报》视频总监。多年来，我的团队制作了无数带您亲临重大新闻现场的视频，由具备专业素养的时报记者呈现，帮助您理解事件真相。您可能在社交媒体或浏览《纽约时报》时见过这些内容。

Hi. I'm Solana Pine. I'm the director of video at The New York Times. For years, my team has made videos that bring you closer to big news moments, videos by Times journalists that have the expertise and training to help you understand what's going on. You might have seen these on social media or browsing The New York Times.

现在我们把这些视频整合到了《纽约时报》应用程序的'观看'专区。这个专属视频流确保您看到的每一条内容都值得信赖。所有视频均可免费观看，无需订阅。立即从您常用的应用商店下载《纽约时报》应用开始观看。

Now we're bringing those videos to you in the watch tab in The New York Times app. It's a dedicated video feed where you know you can trust what you're seeing. All the videos there are free for anyone to watch. You don't have to be a subscriber. Download the New York Times app from your favorite app store to start watching.

如果您更偏爱音频内容，我们还设有'收听'专区。

And if you're more of an audio person, there's a listen tab too.

欢迎回到书评播客。我是吉尔伯特·克鲁兹，今天与《十一月风暴：埃德蒙德·菲茨杰拉德号不为人知的故事》作者约翰·U·培根对话。您在书中写道：'泰坦尼克号上所有人都知道冰山是沉船元凶，但时隔73年才找到残骸。而埃德蒙德·菲茨杰拉德号的情况恰恰相反。'

Welcome back. This is the book review podcast. I'm Gilbert Cruz, and I'm here with John U Bacon, author of The Gales of November, the untold story of the Edmund Fitzgerald. You write in the book, quote, everyone on the Titanic knew the night she went down that the iceberg was the culprit, yet no one could find the ship for seventy three years. The Edmund Fitzgerald has been the opposite.

定位这艘船远比查明其沉没原因要容易得多。

Finding the ship has proven far easier than determining why it sank.

什么

What

发生了什么？到底发生了什么？首先告诉我们他们是如何发现那艘船的，然后描述事发时的现场情况。现在再说明那个现场情况是如何变得复杂的。

happened? What happened? First of all, tell us how they found the ship, and then tell us what the view was at the time of what happened. And now tell us how that view has been complicated.

他们很快就找到了。就在那一周发现的。是一艘伍德拉什海岸警卫队的船用拖曳声呐发现的。那么是什么导致的呢？海岸警卫队早期声称是舱口盖的问题。

They found it very quickly. They found it that week. They found it from a sonar being dragged by a Woodrush Coast Guard ship. And now what did it? The Coast Guard claimed early on that it was the hatch covers.

要么是没有完全锁好，要么是锁得不好，要么根本没锁，这基本上是在责怪那三名甲板水手和负责他们的副手。不过我采访过的大多数专家很快就否定了这种说法。首先，我能看到很多舱口在底部都正确锁好了。我有两名当年的船上证人，他们也是甲板水手。他们说在11月绝不可能在没把1400个凯斯纳C型夹具全部锁好的情况下就离港。

Had either been not sufficiently latched or poorly latched or not latched at all, which basically blames the three deckhands and the first mate who's in charge of those people. So that was pretty quickly thrown out by most experts that I've talked to. A, because I can see a lot of them being hatched properly, latched properly on the bottom. So I've got two witnesses who were on the ship that year, who were also deckhands. And they said there's no way ever you'd even leave port in November without all 1,400 of these Kessner c clamp looking devices all clamped by these three peers of theirs.

他们非常清楚这一点。所以绝不可能是玩忽职守。因此这种说法很不靠谱。然后你就陷入了各种其他理论，天啊，现在每个理论至少都能写本书了。我认为最有可能的是：第一，超载了。

They knew very well. So they weren't slackers by any means. So that seems very unlikely. Then you're into all kinds of other theories and man, there's a book per theory at least at this point. I think the most likely are a, it's overloaded.

这一点我们基本可以确定。

We know that pretty much for sure.

你说超载，是指他们装载的铁矿石超过了规定量吗？

When you say overloaded, you mean they put on more iron ore than they or they took on more iron ore than they should have.

是的。这部分是政府允许的，因为政府在1969年、71年和73年批准了所谓的'干舷'规定。干舷是指从吃水线到甲板顶部的空间高度，由政府决定具体数值，即所谓的普利姆索尔线。

Yes. And part of that was allowed by the government as the government allowed from '69, '71, and '73, what's called freeboard. Freeboard is how much space you have from the waterline to the top of your deck. And the government determines how much that is. It's called the Plimsoll line.

政府允许菲茨杰拉德号和其他船只的干舷高度在短短五年内从14英尺降至11英尺。而工程师们最初并未为此设计。正如我的一位专家所说，大多数日子这无关紧要，直到遭遇风暴时，这就变得至关重要。对吧。

And the government allowed the Fitzgerald and the other ships to go from 14 feet above water to then 11 feet above water in just five years, basically. And the engineers did not design it for that. And as one of my experts said, that doesn't matter most days until you're in a storm, and then it matters a lot. Right.

因为你离水面更近了。

Because you're closer to the water.

你离水面更近，更要命的是——在五大湖而非海洋上，由于我前面描述的水文特征，船头可能陷入一个30英尺高的浪中，中间毫无支撑，船尾又陷入另一个30英尺的浪里。缺乏支撑的情况下，船体中部自然会下垂。随后当它越过浪峰时又会中拱，这与下垂正好相反。想象每天这样上下起伏上万次——因为这就是你会遭遇的浪涌频率。嗯。

You're closer to the water and get this, on the Great Lakes and not on the ocean, because of the water I described earlier, you can have your bow stuck in a 30 foot wave at one end, nothing supporting it in the middle, and your stern in a second 30 foot wave at the end. With nothing supporting that, then it sags, of course, in the middle. And then it goes over those waves and it hogs, which is the opposite of sagging, as it drapes over that wave. Well, do that back and forth 10,000 times a day, because that's how many waves you're gonna see. Mhmm.

用回形针做实验：如果这样弯折一万次会怎样？它会断裂。布拉德利号在1958年断裂，莫雷尔号在1966年断裂。所以这是另一个真实存在的可能性。

Do that to a paper clip. What happens if you do a paper clip like that 10,000 times? It's gonna snap. And the Bradley snapped in 1958, and the Morell snapped in 1966. So that's another real possibility here.

问题在于它是水面断裂还是触底数秒后断裂。这方面我们尚不确定。另一种可能性——我个人倾向这种观点——是它驶过了六噚浅滩（1噚=6英尺，6噚即36英尺）。

And the question is did it snap on the surface or after it already hit the floor seconds later, basically. So we're not quite sure about that. Another possibility, and I tend to believe it, is that he went over 6 Fathoms Shoal. A fathom is six feet. So 6 Fathoms is therefore 36 feet.

但吉尔伯特，这本身也是虚假标识。某些区域实际深度仅11英尺，和你家后院泳池差不多。像这种吃水29英尺的货轮（何况当天海况恶劣），根本不该靠近苏必利尔湖东北角这片浅滩。他可能确实驶过了麦克索利礁——亚瑟·安德森号的船长伯尼·库珀通过雷达观测认为他看到了这一幕。

But Gilbert, it's also false advertising in itself. In some places it's only 11 feet, and that is no deeper than your backyard pool. So a ship that draws 29 feet on a good day, and this is not a good day, has no business being anywhere near this little spot of land in the Northeast Corner Of Lake Superior. So he might have gone over that McSorley, and Bernie Cooper, the captain of the Arthur Andersen thinks that he did on his radar. He thought he saw it.

这是一种可能性。如果他驶过6英寻浅滩，几乎肯定会触底。一旦触底，船体就会受损，这也能解释为何他在麦克索尼承认船体出现右舷侧倾，即永久性向右倾斜，并一直保持这种状态航行。这种情况只有几种可能原因，其中之一就是船体进水。因此这种可能性确实存在。

So that's one possibility. If he went over 6 Fathom Shoal, they almost certainly bottomed out. If they bottomed out, they would have done damage to the hull, and in which case, that would explain why he did admit, at McThorney, he's got a starboard list, which means it's tilting permanently to the right side, and he's riding that the whole way in. That can only happen a few different ways, and one of them, of course, is water in the hull. So that's a real possibility there.

一旦船体倾斜，操控性就会大幅下降。面对巨浪时也更加脆弱，可能被浪头压制，甚至像野生动物被折断腿那样拦腰折断，那就危险了。

Once you're listing, you can't steer it nearly as well. You're also far more vulnerable to any of these big waves pinning you down, or cracking you in half like a three legged animal in the wild, you're in trouble.

你列举了很多不同的可能性，但也涉及众多变量因素。我记得你在书中某处提到，埃德蒙德·菲茨杰拉德号的沉没不太可能仅由单一因素导致。无论是金属疲劳、巨浪冲击还是浅滩触底，更可能是这些因素共同作用导致海水涌入，使船只迅速沉没。偏偏它还遭遇了该湖区多年来最恶劣的风暴之一。

You are describing a lot of different possibilities, but you're also describing a lot of different factors. And I think you say at one point in the book, it is very unlikely that only one factor led to the sinking of the Edmund Fitzgerald. So whether it was metal fatigue, whether it was a wave, whether he bottomed out on the shoal, it it was possibly a combination of all those things that led to water getting into the ship and the ship going down so quickly. He he just happened to go into one of the worst storms that had been on that lake in a very long time.

是的。我的专家顾问约翰·坦纳，前五大湖海事学院院长，他有两名学员在这艘'20九号船上。他说：这种吨位的优质船只很少因单一事故沉没，通常是一连串多米诺骨牌开始倒塌。而一旦开始倒塌，事态可能急速恶化。

Yeah. One of my experts, John Tanner, the former superintendent of the Great Lakes Maritime Academy, he had two cadets on this ship out of the '20 nine. He said, look, it's rarely in a ship this size this good, It's rarely one thing. It's a series of dominoes that start falling. And once they start falling, it can get scary very fast.

当时的情况是什么？百年一遇的风暴，一艘在设计载重量上早已超标的船只。顺便说，建造时他们用焊接替代了铆钉。为什么？

What do you have here? You have the storm of the century. You have a ship that's really not designed to do what it's doing now in terms of the weight. And also by the way, the side, they swapped out rivets for welds when they built the ship. Why?

因为这样能减轻120万磅重量，自然就能装载更多铁矿石。这个因素加上之前提到的浅滩等问题，多种因素同时作用。我比较认同露丝·哈德森的观点。

Because they're 1,200,000 pounds lighter. That's more iron ore you can put on your ship, of course. There's that factor and there's, like I said, shoals and some other factors. It's a lot of things at once. I tend to side with Ruth Hudson.

她唯一的孩子布鲁斯·哈德森是这艘船的甲板水手，当然也遇难了。她说过一句令人难忘的话：只有29名船员和上帝在场，而他们都无法开口。所以没有目击者，我们只能推测。但这些推测都相当合理。

Her only child, Bruce Hudson, is a deckhand in this ship and he's lost of course. And her, I think, memorable line is, only 30 no, 29 men and God, and they're not talking. So there are no witnesses here, so we have to guess. But those are pretty good guesses right there.

正如你开头所说，埃德蒙·菲茨杰拉德号沉没的真正原因可能永远无法知晓。这并非你最初设定的目标，或者说你无法合理实现的目标。但你成功填补了船上许多人的背景故事。我想如果你在中西部长大，或许知道有29人遇难；如果你听过戈登·莱特富特的歌，就知道船上有这些人，但很可能你完全不知道他们是谁。

As you said at the beginning, the the story of the actual cause for the Edmund Fitzgerald is likely never to be known. And that was not something that you had set out to do or or could reasonably achieve. But you were able to fill in the backstory for a lot of these people on the ship, you know. If I guess if you grew up in the Midwest, maybe you knew 29 men went down. If you'd listened to the song by Gordon Lightfoot, you knew there were all these men on the ship, but maybe, or very likely, you had no idea who they were.

通过阅读你的书，我们得以了解他们是谁。我们也知道了他们身后留下的人。我很好奇你是如何联系并说服这些多年来从未完整讲述过故事的家属开口的。

And in reading your book, we get to find out who they are. And we also get to find out who they left behind. I was wondering how you reached and how you convinced a lot of these family members who had never really spoken robustly about their story to do so after all these years.

说实话这部分靠运气。但这些受访者既非富人也不是名人——我做大学橄榄球题材时接触的人对此习以为常，说实话他们不太在意你说什么。而这些家属必然非常在意你将如何描述他们的叔叔、父亲或男友，因为这可能是这些人唯一被认真讨论的机会。

Part of that was luck, frankly. But to get to these people, these are not rich or famous people. I'm used to doing college football books as you point out. So on they're accustomed to this, and they're not that concerned about what you have to say, frankly. These people are necessarily very concerned about what you're going to say about their uncle or their father or their boyfriend because it might be the only time they're ever really discussed.

这些家属此前从未接受过记者采访。有个叫布鲁斯·林恩的人，他是白鱼点大湖沉船博物馆的馆长——那里是距离沉船地点最近的陆地（17英里外），馆内陈列着打捞上来的船钟。二十年来他与家属们建立了深厚信任，这是应得的，他是个非常可敬的人。

None of these people had ever talked to a reporter before. So there's that hurdle there. A guy named Bruce Lynn is the executive director of the Great Lakes Shipwreck Museum at Whitefish Point. That is the closest land point to where the ship went down, 17 miles out there, and they have the bell from the ship brought up in his museum. He's got to know the families very well over a couple decades basically, and gain their trust and rightly so, he's a very honorable man.

幸运的是，他在安娜堡附近的东密歇根大学读过硕士。这些年来他通过密歇根公共广播听我解说橄榄球——虽然这家伙是俄亥俄州立大学毕业的密大球迷。他读过我前作《哈利法克斯大爆炸》，很喜欢那本书。

Lucky for me, he did his master's work at Eastern Michigan University right near Ann Arbor. So he heard me on Michigan public radio all these years talking about football. The guy went to Ohio State, and he's a Buckeye and went to the University of Michigan. We got past this, but he was a listener and then he read my previous book, The Great Halifax Explosion. He liked that.

于是我们相处得很融洽。他基本上为我打开了方便之门。三年前11月10日周年纪念时，家属们都来到他的博物馆，被安排住在船员宿舍。我当时见到他们并开始交谈，我向他们保证会在发表前核对引述内容。这个承诺进一步建立了信任。

So we started getting along quite well. He essentially gave me the case of the kingdom. When they all came in for the anniversary three years ago on November 10 at his museum and his, they put them up in their cruise quarters. I met them then, we started talking and one thing I assured them is I will send you your quotes before they go out to make sure we got them right. Once I did that, that's an increased trust as well.

说实话，我让这些可怜人经历了不止几次面对面访谈，可能每人还要接5到10个电话，反复核对各种细节。这不是写书的邀约——我不想讨好他们，我必须如实完成这本书。但至少他们能确信，关于父辈的引述会是准确的。

And trust me, I put these poor folks through, I don't several in person interviews, but five or 10 calls each probably, and then a back and forth and all the stuff. It's not an invitation to write the book. I'm not trying to pander to these people. I have to write the book I got it right. But they can at least be assured they're gonna be quoted accurately about their fathers.

这对他们来说显然非常重要。我很高兴地报告，他们对这本书非常满意。

And that clearly matters a great deal to them. And I'm pleased to report they're very pleased with the book.

你的感觉是什么？我知道每个家庭都不同，但如果你愿意概括或至少描述一下，现在已经过去五十年了。他们是否厌倦了谈论这件事？思考这件事？还是有些人想继续谈论和思考，以保持对逝去亲人的记忆？就像当你是某位著名灾难遇难者的家属时，我想你可能处于这个光谱的任何位置。

What is your sense, I'm sure it differs from family to family, but if you feel comfortable generalizing or characterizing at least, it's been fifty years now. Are they tired of talking about it? Thinking about it? Are some of them and the other ones want to keep talking and thinking about it in order keep the memory of their loved ones alive. Like when you're a family member of someone who's been involved in a famous disaster, I imagine you can exist anywhere within that spectrum.

确实如此。我和29个家庭中的14个交谈过，所以不是全部。正如你所说，自然存在差异，但他们已经见识过那些食尸鬼、妖精和骗子。显然他们已经习惯了。但我认为他们都有一种感觉，这是他们完整讲述故事的机会。

That's true. And I talked to 14 of the families out of the 29, so not all. And as you say, there's a range naturally, but they've already seen the ghouls and the goblins and the grifters. So obviously, they're used to that. But I think they all seem to have the sense this is their chance to tell the story in full.

其中很多人都有自己的章节。这对他们来说感觉很好，而且我们做对了。我想可以说他们几乎感到一种宣泄。上周在密尔沃基的图书巡展上，我见到了其中一位叫黛布·尚波的家属，她给了我一个大大的拥抱，眼里含着泪水。这就是我从他们那里得到的反应，这当然让人感觉很好。

And a lot of these guys got their own chapters. So that certainly felt good to them and then we got it right. So I think that they felt almost cathartic, I think would be fair to say. I saw one of them Deb Champeau on the book tour in Milwaukee last week and gave me a big hug and she's you know teary eyed and so on. And that's the reaction I'm getting from them, which certainly feels good.

我没有把这些家伙描绘成天使。我是说，有很多酗酒和其他事情，但他们是真实的、有血有肉的人。我觉得你一旦了解他们就会关心这些人。我还可以说，让我惊讶的是，他们真的不在乎关于船只如何沉没的最终答案是什么。

I didn't make these guys out to be angels. I mean, there's plenty of drinking and other stuff, but they're real and they're sealed and human. Think you have to care for these guys once you know them. I can also say too, surprising to me. They really don't care what the final answer is on how the ship went down.

嗯。他们说可能在头五到十年在乎过，但现在五十年过去了。就像其中一位对我说的，在这个阶段还能改变什么？你得承认她说得对。

Mhmm. They said they did care for five or ten years maybe, but now it's been fifty years. And as one of them said to me, what can it possibly change at this stage? And you gotta say she's right.

为什么你认为沉船事件特别能引发人们病态般的着迷？我记得小时候对泰坦尼克号的故事既着迷又恐惧。这种感觉在本周末重现了，当我在谷歌上搜索埃德蒙·菲茨杰拉德号的图片，看到它在苏必利尔湖底的画面时。我感觉又回到了小时候，既害怕看这些图片，又同时忍不住想看。这种对沉船的复杂心理是怎么回事？

Why do you think shipwrecks in particular hold such a morbid or so just such a fascination for people? I remember as a kid being both obsessed with and and terrified, of course, at the story of the Titanic. That feeling was recreated this weekend when I was googling images for the Edmund Fitzgerald and their pictures of it at the bottom of Lake Superior. And I I felt like a little kid again in that I was actually scared to look at these images, but I I also wanted to at the same time. What is this dynamic that exists with shipwrecks?

这是直到我开始工作才意识到的事情。过了一段时间后，我意识到这是个核心问题，而最初引发我思考的却并非这个问题。我认为这确实是某种本质性的、关乎我们存在根基的东西。泰坦尼克号。请思考片刻。

That is something that didn't even occur to me until I started my work. And then after a while, realize this is a central question, and it was not one of my questions that that got me started. I think it's just something truly elemental, fundamental to our existence. Titanic. Consider that for a second.

它在1912年沉没。电影我记得是在1999年上映的。长达三小时的影片，我坐下观看时确信自己知道结局。然而它依然扣人心弦，看着海水涌入时，我的呼吸都停滞了。这就是它那种触及本质的力量。

It goes down in 1912. The movie comes out I think in 1999. It's three hours long and I sat down pretty sure I knew how this was going to end. And yet it grips you and you see the water coming in and you know, my breathing is halted. It has that elemental aspect to it.

遇难者家属还面临一个额外困境：他们不得不想象父亲、表亲或叔叔最后的时刻。令我震惊的是，他们中许多人在此后多年仍会梦到这些场景。年复一年，他们试图根据排班表推断亲人当时的位置——在轮机舱、驾驶室、厨房或其他任何地方。

The family members also have had the additional issue of trying to imagine their fathers and cousins and uncles last minutes. And they all, I was amazed how many of them have dreamt about this for years afterwards. Continually years, they've tried to figure out based on the shifts, where their loved one would be in the engine room, the pilot house, in the galley, wherever.

这太可怕了。

That's terrible.

我想确实很可怕。唯一慰藉是尽管对事件经过争论不休，但几乎所有人都认同结局来得非常快。最有力的证据是麦克索尼船长——五大湖区最优秀的船长之一——显然连十秒钟都来不及发出SOS求救信号和坐标。救生艇没有任何被动过的迹象，根本没能放下水。

I guess it is terrible. There's one solace is that almost everyone agrees despite the endless debate on what happened, that it happened, the end happened very quickly. And the best proof of that is that captain McSorney, again, one of the best in the Great Lakes, he didn't have apparently ten seconds to get out word SOS that this ship is going down and give the coordinates. The lifeboats had there's no sign of them ever being tampered with. They were not being released.

我们在海底只发现一名穿着救生衣的船员，再没其他人。这多少给了他们些安慰。但这又回到了你的问题：水是我们的朋友，我们靠它生存。

We have found one crew member down at the bottom with a life jacket, nobody else. They do take solace in that. But that brings us back to your question. Water is our friend. We need it to live.

正如你所说，五大湖区本是个欢乐之地。好天气时就像《大白鲨》里的场景，对吧？但当天气骤变时，恶化速度惊人。水转瞬间就能变成敌人，这种转变令人震撼。

The Great Lakes are fun, as you say. This is kind of Jaws on a nice day. Right? And when it turns nasty, it turns nasty fast. It's amazing how quickly water becomes your enemy.

当你看到它朝你的船逼近时，那种不祥的预感是超越理性思考的。我是说，理性思考告诉你可能会沉船溺亡，但像我们这些来自布朗克斯或安娜堡的内陆孩子，根本无法真正理解那种恐惧。嗯。

And when you see it coming into your ship, how ominous that really is. And that is something beyond rational thinking. That is, I mean, is rational thinking. You can drown, you can sink, but there's something your kid's from The Bronx, I'm the kid from Ann Arbor, I am landlocked. Mhmm.

然而当我看到你上周末目睹的那些场景时，仍会感到浑身战栗、呼吸急促。是的，这是最原始的本能反应。

And yet it still gets me in my body, in my breathing when I see these scenes that you just saw this weekend. Yeah. It's elemental.

五大湖航运安全标准后来有什么变化吗？据我所知，自菲茨杰拉德号事故后，再没发生过重大灾难事故。

What if anything changed in terms of shipping on the Great Lakes in terms of safety, safety standards? It's my understanding that there's there's just basically not really been any major disasters following what happened to the Fitzgerald.

没错。法律法规基本没有太大变动，或许本该改革。但有三方面显著改进：一是天气预报技术大幅提升。说实话，现在手机上的GPS和气象预报比当年驾驶舱里的设备还精准。

That's correct. The the laws, the regulations have not changed very much, and maybe they should have. But what has changed is three basic things. One, the forecasting has greatly improved. And honestly, you've got better GPS and weather in your phone than these guys had in the pilot house.

但即便在当时，他们本可以更及时向菲茨杰拉德号通报实况。该船对即将到来的风暴几乎一无所知，这正是问题所在。第二点如我刚才所说——通讯系统。不仅要掌握信息，更要确保湖区所有船长能定期接收预警。第三则是基本常识的普及。

But even at that time, they could have done a better job of reporting to the Fitzgerald what was out there. The Fitzgerald knew very little about the storm that was coming, and that's part of the problem. Two, as I already just said, communication. Not just knowing the information, but getting that on a regular basis to all these captains on the lakes. And three, basic common sense.

你们在书封底看到的那张照片，是11月11日在怀特菲什角拍摄的——正值事故49周年纪念日，遇难者家属都在场。我表情凝重是因为当时正刮着30-40英里/小时的狂风，湖面掀起10-15英尺的巨浪。虽然恶劣，但远不及事发当晚的恐怖景象。嗯。

The photo you see of me on the flap of the book is taken on November 11, the day after the Whitefish Point forty ninth anniversary with the family members there and so on. Well, I'm looking pretty grim because it's about a thirty, forty mile per hour wind. 10 foot waves are out there, you know, 10 to 15 feet maybe. Pretty bad, but nothing like they saw that night. Mhmm.

我手机海事程序显示，当天怀特菲什湾所有船只都下了锚。吉尔伯特，我敢说五十年前绝不会出现这种情况。航运公司的贪婪和船长的逞能作风已彻底扭转。专家们告诉我，如今遇到30英里/小时的大风，船员们都会自觉躲到半岛或岛屿背风处——这在过去根本不可能。常识终于战胜了蛮勇。

Every single ship on my phone program, the maritime program, every single ship at Whitefish Bay was anchored that day. And I guarantee you, Gilbert, fifty years ago, not one of them would be. So the same greed of the companies and machismo of the captains, that has been flipped one eighty. And I've heard from many experts, these guys will tuck in behind a peninsula or an island at 30 mile per hour winds every time, and they never did that before. So common sense has finally kicked in.

你听好了，1875年到1975年间有6000艘船只失事。这个数字太惊人了，而且这还是保守估计。有人说1万，有人说更多。我们就按6000来算吧。

And get this, there are 6,000 shipwrecks between 1875 and 1975. That is an insane number. And that's the low number. Some say 10,000, some say more. Let's call it 6,000.

相当于每周一艘，持续了一个世纪。自1975年11月10日以来，有3万名船员遇难。而之后是零，完全是零。遇难者家属都非常清楚这个记录，他们为此深感自豪。

That's one per week, every week for a century. 30,000 crew lost since 11/10/1975. There have been zero. Exactly zero. And the families are very aware of that record and they're very proud of it.

所以他们的苦难并非毫无意义。嗯。此后没有人再经历过这种悲剧，他们对此感到欣慰。

So their suffering has not been for for naught. Mhmm. That no one's had to go through this since, and they feel very good about that.

我特意把关于这首歌的问题留到了对话尾声。《埃德蒙·菲茨杰拉德号的沉没》，戈登·莱特富特的叙事民谣。您认为这首歌对于延续我们对这起海难的认知有多重要？如果没有这首歌，我们现在还会讨论菲茨杰拉德号吗？

I've saved my questions about the song until towards the end of our conversation here. The Wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald, the ballad by Gordon Lightfoot. How important was this song to, would you say, to the the longevity of our knowledge about this shipwreck? Would we still be talking about the Fitz if it wasn't for this song?

作为任何一本关于埃玛·菲茨杰拉德号书籍的作者，我必须谦卑地承认：没有那首歌，就不会有这些书，绝对不会有。那首歌就是一切。说实话，我刚刚还在安大略省奥里利亚——戈登·莱特富特的家乡参加'莱特富特纪念日'活动，他们特意邀请我去的。

Any author on a book in the Emma Fitzgerald, I'd better be humble enough to admit that without that song, there is no book, period. There are no books. That song is everything. And I grand you, I was just with the band in Orillio, Ontario, which is Gordon Leifold's hometown for Lightfoot Days. They invited me up there for that.

我在现场提出一个观点：坦白说，如果没有那场事故后六个月就推出的这首歌——以音乐行业标准来看这速度相当快——如果没有这首歌给悲剧带来的关注度，我认为这首歌间接拯救了数千条生命。因为它让整个行业蒙羞，促使他们发布了官方报告，不是那种事后出的书，而是事故三四年后发布的正式调查报告，这在以前是从未有过的。

And I made the case that honestly, without the song coming out about six months after the accident, that's pretty fast by music standards certainly, without the spotlight that put on this this tragedy, I think that song helped save thousands of lives because that embarrassed the industry so much that they had reports, official reports, not just, you know, books coming out. Official reports coming out three and four years after the fact, which never happened before.

嗯。

Mhmm.

再强调一次，一个世纪里有6000艘船，而五十年间一艘都没有。我们也不得不承认，五大湖里有6000艘沉船。随便说一艘，就是它了。即使在密歇根州，吉尔伯特，我们也只能说出这些。是的。

So again, 6,000 ships for a century, zero for fifty years. And let's also very easily admit, there are 6,000 shipwrecks in the Great Lakes. Name one and and this is it. And even in Michigan, Gilbert, it's all we can name. Yeah.

就是这艘船。所以这首歌就是一切。

Is this ship. So this the song is everything.

这首歌是他随手创作的。旋律基于他童年时听过的一首爱尔兰船工号子。这是个有趣的故事。它是怎么被录制的？录音过程是怎样的？

So this was a song that he was noodling around with. He based the melody on an Irish sea shanty that he recalled hearing when he was a kid. And it's an it's an interesting story. How was recorded? How was it recorded?

戈登·莱福尔德是位经验丰富的水手，非常严谨。他参加过从密歇根州休伦港到麦基诺岛的帆船比赛——那是场为期三天的残酷赛事，我参加过，确实很艰难。所以这个人相当认真。

Gordon Leifold is an experienced sailor, very serious. He had the Port Huron, Michigan to Mackinac sailboat race. That's like a three day race. I've done it and it's brutal. So this guy was pretty serious.

他正在创作这首三岁半时听过的歌，那是他最早的音乐记忆。11月10日周一，他在多伦多的阁楼上创作这首歌。当时还没有歌词。他一边倒咖啡提神，一边想着：天啊，今晚苏必利尔湖上一定很可怕。基本上他从一开始就和这个团队产生了共鸣。

He's doing the song that he'd heard when he was three and a half, his first musical memory. And Monday, November 10, he's at his attic in Toronto working on this song. He has no lyrics. And he has the thought as he's pouring coffee to keep himself going, that man, it must be hell on Lake Superior tonight. He felt this connection with this group from the start, basically.

于是他继续创作。他拿着那些资料，态度非常认真。这首歌大约95%的内容是准确的。我觉得他确实做得很好。嗯。

So he's working on this. He takes the articles and he's pretty serious about it. The song is about 95% accurate. He did actually a very good job, I think. Mhmm.

但他们录制这张专辑是在1976年3月的多伦多。他们只有五天时间录制11首歌，这首歌并不在其中。他觉得还没准备好，就先录其他歌曲。三天半后，他们提前完成了。

But they're recording this, the album, in March '76 in Toronto. And they've got five days to record 11 songs. This is not one of them. He did not think it was ready, they're doing the other songs. After three and a half days, they finish early.

他向乐队成员们表达了深深的感谢，而他们当时正在收拾乐器。这时制作人通过内部通讯系统说：为什么不试试你们一直在即兴创作的那首歌呢？这很公平。而他回答：还没准备好，真的没准备好。制作人说：听着，伙计。

He says thank you very much to the band members and they're literally packing up their instruments. And the producer comes on the intercom and says, why don't you try that song you've been, as you say, noodling around with, which is utterly fair? And he says, it's not ready. It's not ready. Producer says, look, man.

反正我要收你五天的费用，不管你用不用这五天。我现在在这儿，乐队也在。我们两天后就不在这儿了，何不试试看？他说：好吧。于是他要求调暗灯光，安静了大约一分钟来重新找回内心的情绪。

I'm charging you for five days whether you use five days or not. I'm here right now, so is the band. We're not gonna be here in, you know, two days, so why not give it a shot? He says, okay. So he asked the lights to be dim, and he's quiet for like a minute to recapture this mood in his own heart.

然后鼓手巴里·基恩（愿上帝保佑他，至今健在且状态很好）问：你想让我怎么配合？他完全没概念因为他从没听过这首歌。他说：我会在需要你加入时点头示意。鼓手说：好的。

And then the drummer, Barry Keene, who's God bless him still alive and still sharp. He says, what do you want me to do? And he has no idea because he's never heard the song. And he says, I'll give you a nod when I want you to come in. He says, okay.

他独自演奏了一分半钟——那时候歌曲差不多都是这个长度。巴里·基恩以为他完全忘记了自己。但并没有。在精确的1分34秒处（是的，我多次测量过这个时间点），戈登·莱夫曼转向巴里·基恩点头示意，于是巴里非常勇敢地以一段强劲的鼓点如暴风雨般切入。

Well, he goes for minute and a half, and back then that's how long a song is, pretty much. And Barry Keane thinks he's forgotten all about me. No, he hasn't. At 01:34 exactly, and yes, I've measured that several times. Gordon Leifman turns to Barry Keane, gives him the nod, and that's when Barry, I think very courageously, comes in with a very strong drum fill of the storm.

基本上他是即兴发挥的。他们演奏了六分半钟，结束后互相看了看说：知道吗？这效果相当不错。

Basically, he just makes it up. They play for six and a half minutes. They finish the song. They kind of look around and say, know what? That wasn't half bad.

他们决定再试一次，但效果不如第一次。那天下午他们又尝试了三四次，第二天又试了五六次，但再也没能达到首次的水准。

Let's try it again. Not as good. They tried it three or four more times that afternoon. They tried it five or six times the next day. Never as good.

最疯狂的是：如今电台播放的这首歌不仅是首次录制（巴里说过这种千载难逢的情况确实存在），更是乐队首次合奏这首曲子。顺便说，巴里参与过500张专辑录制。他说：我认为这在整个唱片史上都是空前绝后的。

And this is the crazy part. The song you hear on the radio today is not just a first take, which as Barry said, those happened once in a blue moon, but they happen. This is the first time the band has ever played the song. And Barry has been on 500 albums, by the way. And Barry says, I don't think it's ever happened before or since in the history of of records.

于是我问他为什么，他说因为这不是一首靠思考就能理解的歌，而是需要用心感受的歌。如果你能感受到，技术层面的东西就远不如听众获得的感受重要。这就是我认为它成功的原因。

And and I asked, why? And he said, because this is not a song you think your way through. This is a song you have to feel. And if you feel it, the technical aspects are not as important as the feeling the listener's gonna get. And that's why I think it works.

这是一首非常独特的歌曲，尤其作为热门歌曲的开场曲来说更是独树一帜。正如你所说，这首六分多钟的歌没有副歌部分，是首真正的叙事歌曲。戈登·莱特富特几乎把一切都处理得恰到好处。当他发现有几处错误后，还会在未来的现场演出中进行修正。我能感觉到他很担忧，而遇难者家属们更是对有人用他们亲人的死亡来写歌这件事感到愤怒。

A very unique song, certainly unique in terms of the type of songs that begin hits. As you say, the six plus minutes long, doesn't have a chorus, is a real story song. And Gordon Lightfoot got almost everything right. And when he realized he got a couple things wrong, he would correct those in live performances in the future. You know, I get the impression that he was worried and certainly family members were preemptively angry about someone writing a song about the deaths of of their family members.

他们会想：这个想靠我父亲/兄弟/丈夫的死来赚钱的家伙是谁？但在之后的几十年里，他与至少几位遇难者家属建立了亲密关系。

Who's this guy who's trying to make money off of the death of my father, my brother, my husband. But he became close with at least a few of these family members in in the decades after.

完全正确。他确实非常在意。听着，我完全理解这种感受。虽然我不是戈登·莱特富特，也没有金唱片，但我在写书时也体会过完全相同的忐忑。搞砸的方式实在太多了。

Exactly right. He was very concerned. And look, I know exactly. I'm not Gordon Lightfoot and I don't have any gold albums, but I can tell you I had the exact same sensation when I was writing my book. There are a lot of ways to screw this up.

可能会不够准确，可能不够公正，可能显得冷酷无情或哗众取宠，或者就是不够有同理心。所以他创作时怀着所有这些担忧。起初大约三分之二的家属立即接受了这首歌，而剩下三分之一——就像你说的——抱有严重疑虑，包括我接触过的几位前船员。但当他们反复聆听这首歌，看到听众的反应，并逐渐了解戈登·莱特富特本人后——他几十年来坚持邀请这些人到后台相聚，总是热情相邀。

You can be inaccurate, you can be unfair, you can be come across as callous or sensationalizing, or simply not being compassionate enough. So he had all those fears going into it. And at first, probably two thirds of the families liked it right away, and one third, as you say, had serious misgivings, as well as some former crew members that I talked to. But once they heard the song more often, once they saw the reaction to it, and once they got to know Gordon Lightfoot himself, who made it a point to reach out to these people to invite him backstage repeatedly for decades. Always invited him backstage.

他们存着他的电话号码，他也有他们的。他还用部分版税在他们名下设立了五大湖海事学院的奖学金。在这件事上我不得不称他为英雄。正如一位家属所说：如果没有这首歌，现在已经没人记得我父亲了。

They had their cell phones. They had his. And he also took some of the profits and supported several scholarships in their name at the Great Lakes Maritime Academy. So I had to call them a hero on this story. And as one of the family members said, look, without the song, nobody knows my father anymore.

在中西部地区的家庭聚会上，他们会反复播放这首歌。嗯。让那些从未见过祖父的孙辈们知道：这就是他的故事。

And at family reunions, they play the song repeatedly around the Midwest Mhmm. For the grandkids who never met their grandfather. This is who he was.

这太不可思议了。正如你在这里讲述的故事，约翰，关于十一月的大风和埃德蒙·菲茨杰拉德号不为人知的故事。约翰，你培根，非常感谢你来到书评播客节目与我们分享。

That's incredible. As is the story that you tell here, John, the Gales of November, the untold story of the Edmund Fitzgerald. John, you Bacon, thank you so much for coming on the Book Review podcast to talk about it.

吉尔伯特，这是我的荣幸。真的。

Gilbert, my pleasure. Truly.

这是我与约翰·u·培根的对话，他是《十一月的大风：埃德蒙·菲茨杰拉德号不为人知的故事》的作者。我是《纽约时报》书评编辑吉尔伯特·克鲁兹。感谢收听。

That was my conversation with John u Bacon, author of the Gales of November, the untold story of the Edmund Fitzgerald. I'm Gilbert Cruz, editor of the New York Times Book Review. Thanks for listening.