周日特辑：我们学生时代读过的书

美丽与赢得网球大满贯、赋能社区或在南美洲的荒野中追踪美洲豹有何关联？大家好，我是伊莎贝拉·罗西里尼，欢迎回到《这不是一档美容播客》第二季。在这里，我将揭示那些触及美丽如何贯穿我们生活方方面面的故事。请通过您喜爱的播客平台收听由欧莱雅集团出品的《这不是一档美容播客》。

What does beauty have to do with winning a tennis grand slam or empowering communities or tracking jaguars through the wild heart of South America? Hi there. I'm Isabella Rossellini, and I'm back with season two of this is not a beauty podcast where I uncover stories that get to the heart of how beauty is woven through every facet of our lives. Listen to this is not a beauty podcast from L'Oreal Group on your favorite podcast platform.

大家好，我是吉尔伯特·克鲁兹，《纽约时报书评》的编辑，这里是《书评播客》。今年秋天异常忙碌，部分原因当然是每年秋季都会涌现大量重磅书籍，但还因为我一直在主持《每日新闻》的周日版。希望您已收听过其中几期。本周我们将重播九月初的一期节目，届时书评同事萨迪·斯坦将与我一同对话著名儿童系列《歪歪小学的荒诞故事》作者路易斯·萨克尔。

Hello. I'm Gilbert Cruz, editor of the New York Times Book Review, and this is the Book Review Podcast. It's been a very busy autumn, partly, of course, because every fall is full of big books, but also because I have been hosting a Sunday edition of The Daily. I hope you have listened to a couple of those episodes. This week, we're gonna run an episode of that show from early September in which my fellow editor here at the book review, Sadie Stein, joins me in conversation with Louis Saker, author of the famed children's series, Sideways Stories from Wayside School.

今年他出版了首部成人小说《虎堡魔术师》。现在让我们进入那段对话。鉴于我们三位分别是作家和两位编辑，可以说我们都是成年后的爱书之人。但萨迪、路易斯，你们是否从小就热爱书籍？

This year, he published his first novel for adults, The Magician of Tiger Castle. Let's go to that conversation now. Given that we are an author and and two editors, I think it's fair to say that we're all book lovers now as adults, as grown ups. But, know, Sadie and and Lewis, did you always love books from the beginning, from the time that you were a young child?

我童年时阅读量很大。学乐书展来临时，我总会订购两三本书。但我不确定那算热爱阅读。真正让我印象深刻的是四年级时老师给我们朗读的书——这让我很惊讶，没想到四年级老师还会朗读故事。

I read a lot as a child. You know, the Scholastic Book Fairs would come through, and I'd always order two or three books. I don't know that that they that I loved reading. The one the one book that stands out was actually our teacher read to us out loud when I was in fourth grade, which surprised me. I didn't know teachers still read books aloud in fourth grade.

她读的是《夏洛的网》。我完全被迷住了。糟糕的是结局时我在课堂上哭了，但这故事既有趣又感人，让我完全沉浸其中。

But she read Charlotte's Web. And I just loved it. You know, the bad part was I cried in class at the end, but it was funny. It was emotional. I was completely caught up in the story.

那种迫切想知道后续发展的心情，我想正是我阅读爱好的起点。给孩子朗读真的太重要了——除了老师读这本书的场景，我对四年级其他记忆都已模糊。

You know, I wanted to find out what happened next. That's really what what I think started my love of reading. I think it's so important for people to read to kids. Because, you know, I remember nothing else about fourth grade except our teacher reading that book.

我四年级时也有类似经历。隐约记得老师读过《失落的岛屿》还是《迷岛》...

I I I think the same thing is true of me in fourth grade. I think I remember a teacher reading maybe Island of the Lost Island of the Lost

蓝海豚。

Blue Dolphins.

《蓝色秘密花园》或《蓝色海豚岛》。我只记得坐着听老师朗读，那种体验很神奇，当老师用故事把整个班级都吸引住的时候。

Island of or the Blue The Secret Garden. I just remember sitting and having a teacher read to me, which can be like a magical experience when your teacher is just holding an entire class wrapped with a story.

有趣的是你们俩都提到了四年级，因为我在思考这个话题时，意识到那是最神奇的一年，无论是自己阅读还是听老师朗读。我的老师玛丽·尼尔是个非常有天赋的朗读者，我记得她读过《弗兰克韦勒夫人的混乱档案》。

Well, it's funny that you both brought up fourth grade because when I was when I was thinking about this subject, I realized that was the year that was most magical, both reading to myself and having the teacher read. And my teacher, Mary Neal, was a really gifted reader, and I remember she read from the mixed up files of missus Basile Frankweiler.

嗯。

Mhmm.

她每天都会给我们读很多书，我们会一边编织或做小学时的手工活。那感觉太棒了。我得说我不是一个早读者。真正让我爱上阅读的是第一本《贝琪·泰西》的书，之后我就一发不可收拾了。

And she read a lot to us every day, and we would knit and do the various handicrafts we did in elementary school. And it was just incredible. I should say I was not an early reader. And I think what really started me loving it was the first Betsy Tacy book. Then I was just kind of off to the races.

我记得8到11岁那段时间，就是不停地、不加选择地、沉浸式地阅读，一直如此。

And I remember kind of the ages of eight to 11 as just incessant, indiscriminate, immersive reading all the time, constantly.

抱歉，在我们继续之前，《贝琪·泰西》是什么书？

Sorry. Before we go any further, what are the Betsy Tacy books?

《贝琪·特蕾西》系列书籍由玛德哈特·洛夫莱斯所著。我想她是在二十世纪四十年代创作的。最初，她只是向年幼的女儿玛丽昂·洛夫莱斯讲述自己在明尼苏达州曼卡托的童年故事，后来将这些故事改编成了这套儿童读物。系列从她五岁生日开始，一直写到她结婚为止。作品的文字深度随着主人公年龄增长而递进，充满了魔力。

The Betsy Tacy books were written by Madhart Lovelace. I think she wrote them in the nineteen forties. She started by telling her young daughter, Marion Lovelace, her childhood growing up in Mankato, Minnesota, and turned them into this series of children's books, which start when she's five, her fifth birthday, and end when she is married. And the level of the writing ages as as she ages, and they're magical.

你看，我一开始说萨迪·斯坦多么博览群书时，指的就是这种情况。

You see, when I said at the beginning about how well read Sadie Stein is, this is this is exactly what I was talking about.

哦，你会发现只要提起这些书，热爱它们的人都会变得异常热情。

Oh, I think you'll find, if you bring this up, people who love these books are passionate about them.

刘易斯，你之前听说过这些书吗？

Lewis, had you ever heard of these books?

从没听过。穆奇真是太神奇了。

I never have. Mooch is amazing.

我也是。大约在十岁或十一岁时，我成了那种痴迷的读者。说来遗憾，这其实是受电影影响——我会先看电影，然后去读原著小说。因此我对斯蒂芬·金（至今仍痴迷）、汤姆·克兰西、约翰·格里森姆、迈克尔·克莱顿、安妮·赖斯这些作家都很着迷。

Me neither. Became a sort of an obsessive reader, I feel like right around 10 or 11. And it unfortunately was because of movies. I would watch a movie and then I would watch read the book on which it was based. And so Stephen King, who I continued to maintain an obsession with, Tom Clancy, John Grisham, Michael Crichton, Anne Rice, all these people.

看完《侏罗纪公园》《夜访吸血鬼》或《糖衣陷阱》后，我就会去读原著，渐渐迷上了这些通俗小说家。后来发展到无时无刻不想阅读，手里总捧着本书。刘易斯，我好像在哪读到过，你直到高中才成为 avid reader？

I would see Jurassic Park or Interview with the Vampire or The Firm, and I would read the book, and I became obsessed with these popular fiction authors. And then that led into just wanting to read all the time. I always had a book in my hands. Lewis, I feel like I read somewhere that you didn't become a big reader until high school.

没错。要知道，我在七十年代初上高中时，人们谈论那个年代总会聚焦在反主流文化、毒品和音乐上。但人们忘了，至少在我和朋友们心中，我们最钦佩的一些领袖人物是像库尔特·冯内古特、肯·凯西和J.D.塞林格这样的作家，那正是我开始真正爱上书籍的时候。

Right. You know, I was in high school in the early nineteen seventies, and, you know, people when people talk about those times, they focus on the counterculture and the drugs and the music. But people forget were some of the leaders of that, or at least among me and my friends, some of the people we most admired were people like Kurt Vonnegut and Ken Kesey and J. D. Salinger, and that's when I really started loving books.

我记得我和一个朋友——不记得是怎么开始的——但我们都有一本J.D.塞林格的《九故事》。这不是任何课程要求的。我们每晚各自读一篇，第二天讨论，因为那些故事里有太多需要理解的东西。比如有个故事的结尾是某人把鸡肉三明治在口袋里放了两周之类的情节。

I remember a friend of mine and I, I don't remember how we started on this, but we each had a copy of Nine Stories by J. D. Salinger. This wasn't through any class. We'd each just read a story a night and then talk about it the next day because there was so much to try to understand in those stories that just I mean, like one story ended about with a person having kept a chicken sandwich in his pocket for two weeks or something.

就像在说，这和故事有什么关系？但就是这类东西让我深深着迷。

And it's like, what did that have to do with the story? And, you know, things like that. And and and I just loved it.

刘易斯，我很好奇，作为为年轻人写作或曾为年轻人写作的人，经过这几十年，你是否总结出什么理论——到底是什么能吸引孩子？比如，哪些特质会让一本书或故事特别吸引年轻人？

I'm I'm curious, Lewis, as someone who writes for young people or has written for young people, have you been able to develop over these many decades a theory about what's what what hooks a kid? Like, what makes a book or a story particularly appealing for a young person?

我认为首先得吸引我自己。所以我写自己喜欢的内容，不会居高临下地对孩子说教。我尊重读者的智慧和人性，哪怕是九岁的孩子。他们喜欢的和我喜欢的一样，而且不喜欢被说教的感觉。

I think it has to hook me first. And and so I write what I like, and I don't talk down to the kids. And I respect the reader's intelligence and humanity even if it's a nine year old. They like the same things I like and don't feel like they're being preached to.

是啊。其实我这周刚有个孩子开始上幼儿园，所以现在正深入接触儿童文学。这些书很多都经久不衰，你提到的E·B·怀特的作品在我们家就特别受欢迎。

Yeah. You know, I have a young kid just starting kindergarten this week, in fact. And so I'm very deep in kids' literature right now. And so many of these books just hold up so well. I mean, you mentioned Eby White, which which has been a huge hit in our house.

不过我小时候并不太接触这些书，因为我总觉得自己不喜欢动物故事。比如要是书里出现一匹马，我就直接放弃。但现在重读才发现他是个天才——那些书真的太棒了。

And those weren't books I was that involved with as a kid because I never I had this idea that I didn't like animal stories. And I I still I didn't like horse books. Like, if a kid met a horse, I was I was out. But but reading them now, they he's a genius. I mean, those books are great.

而且，我最近在重读娜塔莉·巴比特的作品。太棒了。我是说，这些作家真的很了不起。我认为要吸引孩子，你必须非常熟练，给予他们幽默感、尊严、深刻情感以及像罗尔德·达尔那样展现威胁的能力。

And, like, I've been rereading Natalie Babbitt. Amazing. I mean, these are are fantastic writers. I think you have to be so skilled to appeal to children and to treat give them credit for for humor and dignity and deep feelings and a capacity for menace like Roald Dahl does.

嗯。我是说，这可能是人们在你有孩子之前告诉你的，当你可能对如何与孩子互动或交谈有点不清楚时。就像，直接和他们说话。他们是人。仅仅因为他们年纪小，并不意味着你必须居高临下地对他们说话，或者使用某种特定的语言。

Mhmm. I mean, it is the thing that people tell you maybe before you become a parent when you are perhaps a little bit unclear about how to interact with a child or talk to a child. It's just like, just talk to them. They're a person. Just because they're younger doesn't mean you have to, you know, speak down to them or, you know, use a certain type of language.

就像和他们说话，他们也会回应你。路易斯，我觉得你说的就是，为他们写作，试着站在他们的角度思考，他们会对此有反应，我认为他们对你的书就是这样反应的。

It's just like talk to them and they'll talk back. And I feel like, Louis, what you're saying is just, you know, write for them, try to inhabit their perspective, you know, and and they will respond to it, which I think they have with your books.

是啊。

Yeah.

所以，我想这就是我们作为年轻读者的样子。我想稍微谈谈在学校里作为读者的情况，因为最近有一项研究显示，除了许多其他事情外，比较了2025年现在教给初中和高中生的书与1989年教给初中和高中生的书，这是上次进行这类研究的时间。十本书中有六本完全相同。我想快速浏览一下这个列表，听听你们的想法。让我来逐一看看这十本书。

So that's, you know, I think that's us as as young readers. I want to talk a little bit about being, you know, a reader in school because recently a study came out that in addition to many other things, compare the books that are taught now in 2025 to middle and high school students with the books that were taught to middle and high school students in 1989, which was the last time sort of a study of this type was undertaken. And six of the 10 books were exactly the same. I'd love to quickly run through that list and get your thoughts on it. So let me go through all 10 here.

威廉·莎士比亚的《罗密欧与朱丽叶》。F·斯科特·菲茨杰拉德的《了不起的盖茨比》。阿瑟·米勒的《萨勒姆的女巫》。威廉·莎士比亚的《麦克白》。萨迪表现得非常兴奋，她好像在说，是的，莎士比亚，竖起大拇指。

Romeo and Juliet by William Shakespeare. The Great Gatsby by f Scott Fitzgerald. The Crucible by Arthur Miller. Macbeth by William Shakespeare. Sadie's putting up very she's like, yes, Shakespeare, thumbs up.

约翰·斯坦贝克的《人鼠之间》，哈珀·李的《杀死一只知更鸟》，埃利·维瑟尔的《夜》，莎士比亚的《哈姆雷特》，雷·布拉德伯里的《华氏451度》，以及玛丽·雪莱的《弗兰肯斯坦》。那么，我们对这十本书有什么看法？其中三本是莎士比亚的戏剧，作为最常教给初中和高中生的书，作为英语文学教育的支柱？这些书中有哪些是你记得在初中或高中时读过的吗？

Of Mice and Men by John Steinbeck, To Kill a Mockingbird by Harper Lee, Knight by Ellie Weisel, Hamlet by Shakespeare, Fahrenheit four fifty one by Ray Bradbury, and Frankenstein by Mary Shelley. So what do we think about these 10 books? Three of them being Shakespeare plays, being the books that are most commonly taught to middle and high schoolers as like the backbone of an English literature education? Are these books that you remember reading some of them in middle and high school?

我发现莎士比亚的作品非常难读。

I found Shakespeare very difficult to read.

嗯。

Mhmm.

我找到的最佳阅读方式其实是——我是说，那是在电脑和我们现有的一切工具出现之前——我会去图书馆借唱片，坐在小房间里一边听莎士比亚戏剧的录音一边读剧本。这样才勉强能理解。否则我根本读不下去。

The best way I found to read Shakespeare was actually I mean, this was before computers and everything we've got now. I'd go into the library where you can get records and sit in one of these rooms and play a Shakespeare recording of a play as I read it. And then it Yeah. May then it made some sense to me. But otherwise, I couldn't get through them.

可我每年都最爱莎士比亚单元。我觉得关键在于遇到好老师，我有幸遇到过几位。至今记得其中几段经历，特别是《罗密欧与朱丽叶》——首先我们会分角色表演，大家都特别投入。每个单元结束后还能看改编电影，比如泽菲雷里版或罗曼·波兰斯基的《麦克白》。

See, I I love the Shakespeare section every year. And I think it really depends on having a very good teacher, and I had a couple. And I remember those, not all of them, but but a couple of those experiences, especially Romeo and Juliet, being a way that you know, first of all, we acted them out. People got very into it. And then at the end of each unit, we would get to watch the movie adaptation, whether that be the Zaffirelli or the Roman Polanski Macbeth

所以他们给你们看的是最不适合青少年的版本

or So they showed you the most inappropriate versions of these

没错。可能这就是我记忆美好的部分原因。我演过《罗密欧与朱丽叶》里的奶妈，演得可起劲了。

stories. Yeah. So that maybe this is part of why I have such positive memories. But I got to play, like, the nurse when we read Romeo and Juliet. Got very into it.

萨迪，我觉得你和刘易斯说的是一个道理——必须通过表演形式来接触，无论是听唱片还是看莱昂纳多演罗密欧。莎士比亚确实难懂，尤其那种既优美又晦涩的华丽辞藻。对各个年龄段的孩子来说，它既是西方文学教育的基石，又极难入门。我的立场介于你们之间——后来逐渐欣赏，但初次接触时确实被劝退了。

I mean, Sadie, I feel like you're saying a version of what Lewis is saying, which is like, you also have to sort of see this performed, whether it's or hear it perform, whether it's listening to a record or seeing Leonardo DiCaprio play Romeo. Shakespeare is is hard, particularly with this heightened language, which is both beautiful and difficult. I feel like for many kids of all ages, it is it is something that is the, in many ways, a backbone of a, you know, western civilization literature education, and it is also extremely difficult to get into. So I feel like I fall in between the two of you, which is where I I sort of grew to appreciate it. But I also, on first on first sort of experience, it it put me off.

这很难入门。我能理解为什么很多孩子会说，这不适合我。Chet GPT，请总结一下《尤利乌斯·凯撒》的剧情。我对书单上的其他一些书很好奇，你们俩是否记得在课堂上读过它们。比如约翰·斯坦贝克的《人鼠之间》。

It is hard to get into. I can understand why many kids be like, this is not for me. Chet GPT, please summarize the plots of Julius Caesar. I'm curious about some of the other books on this list and whether or not either of you recall reading them in class. You know, John Steinbeck's Of Mice and Men, for example.

我记得读过《愤怒的葡萄》，但我觉得《人鼠之间》是如此普遍被阅读的作品，当你提到乔治和莱尼时，人们都能明白这个典故。

You have I remember reading Grapes of Wrath, but I feel like Of Mice and Men is one that is so commonly read that when you talk about George and Lenny, people get the reference.

我记得读过《人鼠之间》，而且我很喜欢。实际上，斯坦贝克至今仍是我最喜欢的作家之一。《愤怒的葡萄》、《伊甸园之东》。嗯，是的。

I remember reading Of Mice and Men, and I liked it. In fact, you know, Steinbeck is still one of my favorite writers. Grapes of Wrath, East of Eden. Mhmm. Yeah.

我认为写作和阅读最吸引我的一点，就是能与作者产生共鸣——你仿佛进入了作者的思维，欣赏他的智慧和人生观。如果只关注情节，这种体验就会大打折扣。这也是我对莎士比亚作品感到困扰的地方，那种古老的语言让我们很难与他本人产生联系，最终只剩下情节的空壳。

I just think they one of the things I love about writing, reading as well, I mean, is the connection I feel with the author that you're getting inside this author's mind, you're appreciating his wit and his outlook on life. And I feel that's lost a little bit if you're just focusing on the plot. I think that's what also bothers me about Shakespeare, for example, is it's so hard to relate to him as a person because the language is so foreign to us that you lose that. Now it's just about the plot.

萨迪，你对这些书也有类似感受吗？我是说，那时候我们有CliffsNotes导读，没有维基百科。但你会不会觉得，通过说'哦我知道那本书讲什么'来应付课堂是一种作弊方式？

Sadie, did you feel that way about some of these books here? I mean, there is, you know, we had CliffsNotes then. We didn't have Wikipedia. Right? But you feel like there was a way to cheat class by saying, oh, I know what that book is about.

但实际上，老师们总是试图让你们深入理解主题和语言表达。

But really, your teachers try to get you to engage with the themes and the language.

当然。CliffsNotes的问题在于，按现在的标准来看，其实也需要花费不少时间和精力。比如你还是得认真阅读那些摘要。我记得大学时就这么干过一次，不太光彩地说，是用在《皮袜子故事集》上——那本书我实在读不下去。

Of course. The the thing about CliffsNotes is they, by today's standards, actually took quite a bit of time and effort. Like, you still had to read the summary symbiome. Because I remember I I did it once, actually, in college. I'm not proud to say with the leather stocking tales, which I I just I don't know.

出于某种原因，我既不想做这件事，也没抽出时间。于是我试着阅读《Eclipse》的笔记，结果发现这根本省不了多少时间。但那些黄黑相间的封面让它们看起来如此诱人又禁忌——我猜老师们肯定能发现。我确实记得读过《人鼠之间》，这本书几乎给我留下了心理创伤。

For whatever reason, I I didn't wanna do it or hadn't made the time. So I tried to read Eclipse notes, and it really wasn't that much of a of a time saver. But they made them look so enticingly forbidden with those yellow and black covers. I guess the teachers could could see them. I do remember reading Of Mice and Men, and it made I found it almost traumatic.

我记得这事。虽然我们当时只是高一新生，但自那以后我再没真正读过斯坦贝克的作品。我们读了《人鼠之间》和《珍珠》，这两本书让我感到极度不安，以至于再也没重读过。不过我认为，任何能引发强烈情感的作品都不是坏事。而且这本书读起来特别轻松。

I remember that. I think we were only freshmen, but I have not really read Steinbeck since. We read that and The Pearl, and I found them so incredibly upsetting that that I have never read them again. And I think anytime you feel a strong emotion is not a bad thing. And that one in particular was was easy to read.

我还记得这是全班同学都真正投入的少数作品之一——这种情况其实很罕见。相比之下，《永别了，武器》在我们高一英语课上就彻底冷场了。

And and I remember it was one of the books that everyone in the class kinda got involved with, which wasn't by any means always the case. And I'm thinking here of A Farewell to Arms, which which was a particular dud in my freshman English class.

说到这里，我们先稍事休息。回来后我想更具体地聊聊学生时代钟爱的书，或许也包括那些不太喜欢的作品。

On that note, let's take a quick break. And when we come back, I want to talk a little bit more specifically about the books we loved and maybe the ones we didn't love so much when we were in school.

大家好，我是阿什莉。我和男友住在旧金山，希望能正式共享我的《纽约时报》订阅账号并拥有独立登录权限。我们都热爱烹饪，喜欢待在厨房——不过我是追求30分钟高效晚餐的实用派。

Hi. This is Ashley. I live in San Francisco with my boyfriend. We would love to officially share my New York Times subscription with separate logins. We both love cooking, love being in the kitchen, but I'm a thirty minute and under efficient dinner girly.

我想要烤盘简餐，他却热衷精致料理，喜欢赋予菜肴故事性。我希望能保存自己的快手菜谱并标记已完成菜品，觉得让他拥有独立账户会非常理想。

I want a sheet pan meal. He is very elaborate. He wants to get into the storytelling. I wanna be able to save my easy meals and check off the ones that I've completed, and I think him having his own profile would be great.

阿什莉，我们听到你的需求了。现在推出《纽约时报》家庭订阅计划：你将拥有专属账号，讲究先生也会获得他的账号，还可再添加两名成员。详情请访问nytimes.com/family。

Ashley, we heard you. Introducing the New York Times Family Subscription. You get your own login, and mister elaborate gets his, plus room for two others. Find out more at nytimes.com/family.

欢迎回来。这里是书评播客，我是吉尔伯特·克鲁兹。本周与我一同参与节目的还有萨迪·斯坦和作家路易斯·萨克尔。那么，萨迪，你在学校时有没有读过一本让你至今记忆犹新、非常非常喜爱的书？

Welcome back. This is the Book Review podcast, and I'm Gilbert Cruz. I'm joined this week by Sadie Stein and author Louis Saker. So, Sadie, was there a book that you read in school that you just remember really, really loving?

哦，七年级时我们读了《麦田里的守望者》，我完全爱上了它。你提到的《九故事》我们后来也读了，那又是另一记重击，尤其是《笑面人》那篇。还有《香蕉鱼的好日子》，可以说每一篇都令人难忘。

Oh, seventh grade, we read Catcher in the Rye, and I absolutely loved it. I mean, you mentioned nine stories, and we read that later on. And that was another gut punch, the laughing man in particular. And I mean, banana fish, as may every single one of those.

跟我聊聊《麦田里的守望者》吧。为什么？因为我觉得它算是高中文学的典型教材。我记得高中读它时产生了强烈共鸣。

Well, tell me about Catcher in the Rye. Why? Because I feel like that is sort of a prototypical high school text. I don't know. I remember reading it when I was in high school, and it was one that resonated.

但如今作为成年人再讨论这本书，我发现很多人对它嗤之以鼻。可为什么它当时能引起你的共鸣呢？

And then now if you try to talk about it as an adult, I feel like there are many people that look down upon it. But why why did it sort of resonate with you at the time?

说实话，我并非喜欢塞林格的所有作品。但《麦田里的守望者》确实经得起时间考验。把它简单地视为幼稚或做作的作品实在有失公允——要知道作者是位成年男性、退伍军人，却精准捕捉到了青少年疏离感的本质。我们在课堂上还做了个很棒的互动：每人发一张纽约地图，沿着霍尔顿的路线标记，这种沉浸式体验特别有趣。

I think I think it's it's I don't love all of Salinger's work, is the truth. But Catherine the Rye, I think, really holds up. And I think it it does the book a real disservice to to to treat it as something kind of immature or Duchenne because, you know, he was an adult man, a war veteran, writing this book. And he managed to capture something so real and so essential about being an alienated teenager. And when we read it in class, we also did kind of a nifty thing where we were each given maps of New York City, and we would trace his path around, which made it really immersive and fun.

路易斯，你在学校读过《麦田里的守望者》吗？

Lewis, did you read Catcher in the Rye in in school?

我不确定它是否被列入课堂书目，可能太具争议性了。但这确实是我最爱的书之一——连同《九故事》在内，塞林格的所有作品其实都影响了我成为作家，他和库尔特·冯内古特都是我的文学启蒙。嗯。

Again, I don't know that it was assigned in a classroom. It might have been too controversial. But, yeah, it's it's one of my favorite books. That, you know, that along with nine stories and all of Salinger's work actually is why I became a writer, him and Kurt Vonnegut. Mhmm.

你知道，他那种毫不做作的姿态，当你读J.D.塞林格的作品时，能真切感受到他的为人

You know, he he how unpretentious he was and how when you read J. D. Salinger, you have a sense of who he is

嗯。

Mhmm.

以及他观察世界的独特视角。那些文字既引人共鸣又妙趣横生，还带着尖锐的洞察力。这正是我在自己书中试图效仿的特质。

And the way he sees the saw the world. And it was very relatable and funny and poignant. And that's what I tried to emulate with my books.

吉尔伯特，你高中时期特别钟爱哪些书？

Gilbert, what what were the books that you loved in high school?

其实我不喜欢的书很多，但有一本特别打动我。说来惭愧，这是本再普通不过的书——菲茨杰拉德的《了不起的盖茨比》，我读它的次数可能超过其他任何书。好在它篇幅不长。高中初读时，我还记得那个斯克里布纳出版社的平装版本，封面...

I there was a lot that I didn't love, but there was one book in particular that I loved. It is the most basic book, and I apologize, for admitting it. The book was The Great Gatsby, by Fitzgerald, which I have read possibly more than any other book. It helps that it's pretty short. I first read it in high school, and I remember the edition, the Scripner, you know, sort of trade paperback edition with those

蓝白相间的那版？

The blue and white one?

对，蓝白封面的。但初版封面还印着那双眼睛的设计。我一下子就爱上了这本书。

The blue and white one. And then but then it had the eyes on the cover of the original edition. And I just I fell in love with it.

我不明白为什么你会因为喜欢《了不起的盖茨比》而感到尴尬，这本书明明那么好？比如，如果你真的重读过它，我会说那些批评它的人，他们过去十年里重读过吗？而且电影不算数，因为在我看来它是无法被改编的。我觉得是因为它的语言太美了，我不知道。

I don't why would you ever be embarrassed about loving The Great Gatsby, which is so good? Like, if you if you actually reread it, I would say anyone who who is critical of that, have they reread it in the last ten years? And the movies don't count because it is unadaptable, in my opinion. I think it's because the language is too is too beautiful. I don't know.

但是，没错。这本书深深触动了我。

But, yeah. That one touched me a lot.

在那之前我读过很多书，但我不确定是否读过一本纯粹以文字之美取胜的书。它就是写得那么美。我当然读过情节更好的书。但菲茨杰拉德那种抒情风格——有人可能觉得过于多愁善感，我却不这么认为。我当时就想，哦，原来文字还可以这样书写。

I I had read so many books up to that point, but I don't know that I'd read a book that was just beautiful. It was just beautifully written. I definitely read books with better plots. But the lyricism of Fitzgerald, which some people would say is an over sentimentality, I would not. I was just like, oh, this is how you can write as well.

你可以写一本拥有难忘角色、难忘场景，同时还有让年轻人陶醉的段落的小说。这就是我对那本书的感受。而且我现在依然这么认为

You can write a book that has memorable characters, a memorable setting, and also has passages that make you swoon as a young person. That's how I felt about that book. And I continue to think

那本书经得起时间考验。

That book holds up.

它太美了。我认为这正是被迫——或许'被迫'这个词不太恰当，太负面了——被要求在学校读书的意义所在。有时你会爱上一本书，即使其中有很多其他内容无法引起你的共鸣，或者让你想保持距离。

It's gorgeous. That's one of the things I think that being forced to maybe forced is not the right word. That's so negative. Being made to read books in school can do. Sometimes you fall in love with a book, even if there are a ton of other things that you that don't resonate with you or that you sort of hold at an arm's distance.

我也想聊聊其他这类书。刘易斯，你心里有没有一本在学校时让你读得很痛苦的书？

And I would love to talk about some of those books as well. Lewis, is there a book that sticks out in your mind as one that you really struggled with in school?

我记得不喜欢的一本书是威廉·福克纳的《喧哗与骚动》。

One of the books I remembered not liking was sound the sound and the fury by William Faulkner.

我现在正指着我的屏幕。请谈谈福克纳。

I'm pointing at my screen right now. Please talk about Faulkner.

所以，你知道，现在我是个成年人而且博览群书，我想，也许在播客之前，我会尝试重读《喧哗与骚动》。天哪，那阅读起来非常困难。前60页是由一个有智力障碍的角色叙述的。你对所有角色只有模糊的印象，但不确定。我记得有两个叫昆汀的角色，一男一女。

So, you know, now that I'm an adult and well read, I thought, well, maybe I'll try you know, prior to the podcast, I'm gonna try to read The Sound and the Fury again. And boy, that is very difficult reading. It's the first, I don't know, 60 pages are written by someone who is mentally challenged. And just have this vague sense of who all the characters are, but you're not sure. I think there's two people named Quentin, one female, one male.

而且中间某个角色的名字从莫里斯改成了本杰明。在完全搞不清状况的情况下读这么多内容真是够呛。我刚读完那部分，之前最多也就读到那里。我不明白为什么有人会推荐这本书，如果你想激发人们的阅读兴趣或介绍作家，我实在不理解他们为何会指定这本书。

And the character's named somewhere in the middle has changed from Maurice to Benjamin. It's a long it's a lot to read without knowing what's going on. So I've just finished that part. I could never that's as far as I got, but I can't understand why that would be if you're trying to get people to turn them on to reading and to authors, I I don't understand why they'd ever assign that book.

萨迪，你在学校时对福克纳感兴趣吗？

Sadie, were you at all into Faulkner in school?

实际上高中时接触福克纳的经历让我有些排斥。我是说，我在大学坚持下来了，唯一能读完的方式是参加大学研讨会，在那里内容被拆解得很细，分成容易消化的小块。我自己根本做不到。

I actually was kinda put off by my high school experiences with Faulkner. I mean, I I persevered in college, and the only way I got through it was by taking college seminars where, you know, it was really broken down for us and done in very digestible chunks. I couldn't have done it alone.

我也有类似的福克纳经历。高中英语课被迫读《我弥留之际》，完全不知道在讲什么，可能这辈子都不想再读这位先生的作品了。在我还没准备好理解或欣赏的时候就被迫阅读，这和《了不起的盖茨比》形成鲜明对比。

I have a similar Faulkner experience. Been made to read it in a high school English class as I lay dying as well. And just I was like, I I I have no idea what's happening, and it's possible that I'd never want to read this gentleman again. I was made to read it before I was ready to understand it or to engage with it. Sort of the opposite of The Great Gatsby.

就像我或其他人在那个年纪，或者读过《麦田里的守望者》后，已经准备好接受并理解这本书。福克纳可能不太适合高中生。

Like, I or others were primed at that age or The Catcher in the Rye to receive and understand this book. Faulkner maybe is not the guy for high school.

但有很多引人入胜的故事和那么多作家，我认为如果这些作品在高中教授，学生们会更容易产生共鸣。比如我们在高中读了陀思妥耶夫斯基的《白痴》，那是部艰深的俄国文学，但我记得自己非常喜欢。它引人入胜、扣人心弦。之后我又读了很多陀思妥耶夫斯基的书，就像读完《人鼠之间》或《煎饼坪》后又读了很多斯坦贝克的作品。但就像你说的，福克纳的作品直接浇灭了我对阅读的兴趣。

But there are so many engaging stories and so many you know, there's so many authors that that I think if it was taught in high school that students would relate to. And Like we read The Idiot in high school by Dostoevsky, which is this difficult Russian literature, but I just remember loving it. It was engaging and gripping. And I've since gone on and read lots of books by Dostoevsky, just like I've read lots of books by Steinbeck after reading probably the Mice and Men or maybe Tortilla Flats. But with, like you said, with Faulkner, it just turned off turned off any interest I had in reading.

哦，我想到一个相反的情况。我记得我们在高中第一次读的是托妮·莫里森的《宠儿》，那是本非常适合高中生读的书。当时我们大概是高三，年纪也不算太小。

Oh, I thought of kind of an opposite situation. I remember reading we read quite a bit of it was Beloved that we first read in high school, Toni Morrison. And that was such a good high school book. I think we were juniors. And we weren't too young.

书中涉及成人主题，但读起来令人振奋。不过我兄弟总觉得听书比看书容易得多，尤其是长篇作品。所以我们还有《所罗门之歌》的有声书，对他来说效果特别好。通过这次讨论，我逐渐意识到学校课程应该纳入更多有声书，这对那些觉得阅读困难的人很有帮助，而且对某些书来说，这可能是更好的方式。在这个话题上我经常想起我兄弟，因为他并不是个真正喜欢阅读的人。

It was it was adult themes, but it was it was electrifying to read. But my brother always found it a lot easier to to listen to books than to read them, especially long ones. And so we also had the audiobook of, I think, Song of Solomon in his case, and that was fantastic. I think one thing I'm coming around to in this conversation is that more audiobooks should be worked into the school curriculum for for people who find that easier or and I think for certain books, it might be the way to go. I thought about my brother a lot in in this context because he wasn't someone who really liked to read.

我只记得他认真读过穆格西·博格斯的回忆录《巨人国里的矮子》，讲他在夏洛特黄蜂队时期的经历。他还喜欢马特·克里斯托弗的棒球题材书籍，那些我也...

I only remember him really reading the Muggsy Bogues memoir in the land of giants from his Charlotte Hornet era. He also liked Matt Christopher baseball books, which I'd

读过回忆录。那些我都读过。

read to memoir. I read those.

是啊。我觉得让那些自认为不喜欢阅读的孩子接触与他们兴趣相关的读物很棒。任何能让他们发现所爱事物背后还有更多传说、隐秘知识和不同体验的方式都很棒。不过有声书确实是个好选择。

Yeah. I think I think getting kids who don't think they like to read to read things that are adjacent to their interests. I think it's great. I think whatever shows you that there's additional lore and secret knowledge and a different kind of experience of something you love is is terrific. But, yeah, audiobooks, definitely.

是的，我同意。对我来说，无论是听书还是阅读，它们以同样的方式吸引我。不过有趣的是，我从来无法听完自己书籍的有声版本，因为每个句子的重音都与我写作时脑海中的构想略有不同。所以听自己的有声书时，总会让我感到不断被打断。

Yeah. I I agree. I mean, to me, whether I listen to it or read it, it's the same it engages in the same way to me. Although it's funny because I can never listen to the audio readings of my books because every sentence is accentuated just a little differently than the way I had in mind when I wrote it. And so it's it's constantly jarring me when I'm listening to my audiobooks.

那么你曾经完整听完过自己某部作品的有声书吗？

So have you ever gotten through a full audiobook of one of your own works?

没有，我甚至从未...我是说，有些...

No. I've never even got I mean, there are some

那些是...抱歉抱歉，所有路易斯·萨克系列书籍的旁白者。

that are Sorry sorry narrators of all Lewis Sacker books.

人们告诉我他们很喜欢有声版本。所以这只是我个人的怪癖罢了。

And people tell me they love the audio version. So it's, you know, it's just my own idiosyncrasy.

这里稍微离题一下，萨迪，为了强调你所说的有声书的重要性——我觉得对许多读者来说，有声书是他们生活中重要的一部分，却仍然带有某种污名。好像听书就不算真正阅读。我认为任何能激发文学思维的方式，无论是用眼睛读还是用耳朵听，都是有效的。有声书很棒，我经常听。

Brief digression here just to underscore, Sadie, what you said, which is the importance and of of audiobooks, which I feel like is something that for many readers is a big part of their lives and still continues to have a bit of a stigma to it. You know, if you're listening to a book, you're not really reading it. I think I think you agree anything that engages the literary mind, whether you're reading with your eyes or listening with your ears is valid. And so audiobooks are great. I listen to them all the time.

关于你提到的更宏观的观点，我认为每个终身读者都会经历这种拉扯：一方面是被要求阅读的内容，无论是学校还是父母强加的；另一方面是你最终真正热爱的读物。有时这两者能和谐共存，有时则相互对立。最可怕的是，如果被迫读了太多不喜欢的书，可能会让人彻底失去阅读的兴趣。

I do think to your bigger point, the thing that you're talking about is this push pull that every lifelong reader experiences. Right? Which is between what they are told to read, what they are made to read, what they are forced to read, whether it's in school or by your parents, and what you actually end up loving, and how sometimes those things work together, and sometimes those two things can be in opposition. Right? The scariest thing is the idea that if you are made to read too many books that you don't like, you'll just it will turn you off from reading altogether.

这类事情，小时候你永远不会感受到或相信，而且你会讨厌听到。但我很高兴，我不会说从清单上划掉，而是在学校被迫读过某些书，后来发现它们并非我阅读清单上的明显遗漏。作为一个成年人，我根本不会有自律去读福克纳或乔伊斯的作品。我认为在学校被迫做很多事情是有道理的。比如，我自己是不会主动去学数学的。

This is the kind of thing that as a kid, you're never going to feel or believe, and you'd hate hearing. But I'm so glad to have I won't say crossed off my list, to have read certain books in school, been forced to read them, which I then didn't feel were were glaring omissions in in my reading list later. I I just wouldn't have had the discipline to take up Faulkner or Joyce or as an adult. I think there is a lot to be said for being made to do things in school. Like, I'm not doing math on my own.

我很高兴当初被迫学习

I'm glad I was forced to learn

是的。我认为阅读极大地丰富了我的生活。因此，我认为尝试传递这一点很重要。这也是我写作的部分目的，尤其是为年轻人写作时，试图激发他们对阅读的兴趣，向他们展示阅读可以是有趣、引人入胜、发人深省等等。

it. Yeah. I think I think reading has enriched my life tremendously. And so I think it's important to try to pass that along. That's partly of what I do with my writing is just try to, especially when I write for young people, to try to turn them on to reading and show them that reading can be fun and engaging and thought provoking and all that.

你知道，你能做的有限，但我想尽可能多地触及人们，告诉他们，是的，阅读是值得的。

You know, you can only do so much, but I think you wanna try to reach as many people as you can and and say, yeah, reading is worth doing.

刘易斯，你刚结束新书《虎堡魔术师》的巡回宣传回来，我想象有很多粉丝，很多成年粉丝跟你聊起他们年轻时读你书的情景。

Lewis, you're just back from a tour for your new book, The Magician of Tiger Castle, and I have to imagine that you've had a lot of fans, a lot of adult fans talking to you about reading your books when they were young.

是的。我刚带着新书结束巡回宣传回来，其中最暖心的是听到许多成年人告诉我，是我的书让他们开始阅读。现在他们正把这些书读给自己的孩子或学生听，听到他们谈论这些书对他们的意义，真是令人谦卑。

Yeah. I've I've just come back from a book tour with the new book, and one of the things that's been really heartwarming about it was I've heard from from many adults who told me that mine were the books that got them to start reading. Now they're reading those same books to their kids or to their students, and it's been just to hear them talk about what the books meant to them is is humbling.

我记得特别喜欢《歪歪路小学》的一点是它是一个系列。我认为孩子们喜欢系列书，它比单本书更具沉浸感和推动力。它能创造一种社区感，一种期待感。那些以为自己不喜欢阅读的孩子。

One thing I remember really loving about Wayside in particular was that it was a series. And I think kids love a series, and I think it's immersive and propulsive in in a way that standalone books aren't always. I think it it creates a sense of community. I think it creates a sense of anticipation. Kids who think they don't like to read.

我认为系列书籍有时是个不错的媒介。我家的小男孩恰好是个爱读书的孩子，但他真的迷上了这些书，比如《狗男人》。

I think series are sometimes a good device. My own little boy happens to be a reader, but he got really into these books, you know, Dog Man.

嗯。嗯。

Mhmm. Mhmm.

我看到同样的情况正在发生。每次我们去书店，他都会躲进角落，像上瘾般尽可能多地阅读《狗男人》。现在这些书对他来说是一种享受，所以这也有其意义。

And I see the same thing is happening. Every time we're in a bookstore, he's kind of going into a corner and, like, mainlining as much dog man as he can get in. And now they're considered a treat to him, and so there's something to be said for that too.

我同意。我认为系列书籍在很多方面是一种入门读物。比如，孩子从未读过《狗男人》，也从未读过同样极其流行的《小屁孩日记》，但他迷上了《天才神秘会社》系列。

I agree. I think series books are sort of an entry point, you know, in many ways. Like, kid never read the Dog Man books. He never read the Diary of a Wimpy Kid books, which are also incredibly popular. But he was into the Mysterious Benedict Society books.

他还喜欢《地球上最后的孩子》系列，这是一些带有末世僵尸题材的青少年读物，虽然它们不是图像小说，但书中也有插图。德斯蒙德·科尔的幽灵巡逻队是他曾经超级着迷的另一个系列。所以正如你所说，萨迪，期待感确实能帮助孩子们。他们渴望有所期待，无论是下一部漫威电影，

He is into the last kids on the earth books, which are sort of this these sort of post apocalyptic zombie young reader books that also have, images in them, although they're not graphic novels. Desmond Cole ghost patrol is a series that he was also super into. So so I think that idea, as you say, Sadie, of anticipation is something that that helps kids. You know, they want something to look forward to. They want to look forward to the next Marvel movie.

还是下一本《波西·杰克逊》。在我们深入推荐之前，我很好奇——虽然不想把话题带得太阴暗——但几周前刚有报告指出，美国人的休闲阅读量在过去几十年已跌至令人担忧的低谷。如今仅有约16%的美国人会在一年中为乐趣而阅读，这包括书籍、杂志等等。

They also wanna look forward to the next Percy Jackson book. You know? I'm, very curious before we get into some recommendations not to go super dark, but there was just another report released a few weeks ago that talked about how pleasure reading in America has dropped to just a frightening low over the past many decades. So something like only 16% of Americans, you know, now read for pleasure over the course of any given year. That's a combination of, you know, books, magazines, etcetera.

我的反应既意外又不意外。既感到沮丧，又觉得这可能是我们国家当前的现实。不知道你们是否有相似或不同的感受？

I was both surprised and not surprised. I was both depressed, and also I took it as a given that that's maybe where we were in this country at this point. I wonder if either of you had similar or different reactions.

是的。这又回到了我一直强调的观点，在学校里，你只需提供学生能看得见的书籍，当然不同的人适合不同的书——那些能引起共鸣的书会让你意识到：'啊，能与这位作家产生联结并进入这个世界真的很特别。'我认为持续这样做非常重要。

Yeah. Again, that goes to what I've been saying that, you know, in school, you just give them books that they can see, and it's different for different people obviously, books that you relate to and realize, Oh, this is really special to connect with this writer and be a part of this world. You know, I think that's I think that's important that we continue to do that.

我确实觉得，一旦找到那扇入门之书，就再也回不去了。孩子们阅读很重要，因为这让他们明白阅读是触手可及且充满乐趣的。某些系列书籍可能篇幅奇短、高度商业化，像是流水线生产的而非作家深思熟虑之作，但它们具有令人上瘾的特质。我不认同'罪恶快感'的说法，越是能消除那些被污名化的阅读障碍越好。说到底，阅读本身就是好事。

I do feel like when you find that gateway, there's sort of no going back. I think if kids are reading, that's important because it shows them that it's accessible and fun. I think the kind of addictive, la boo boo quality of certain series, which maybe are, like, weirdly short and seem very commercialized and seem to be kind of cranked out by by factories rather than thoughtful writers. I don't believe in guilty pleasures, and I think the more we can we can we can remove certain things that that, as you say, have have stigmas around them, the better. I think reading period is good.

虽然不总能实现，但如果孩子们能看到你阅读实体书，让这种行为在他们周围成为常态，我认为这很重要。

I know it's not always possible, but I think if they can see you reading physical books, I think if that is normalized around them, I think that's important.

还有听人朗读。我认为被朗读给孩子听是最重要的事。

And also being read to. Being read to, I think, the most important thing.

说实话，这对父母和看护者也很有益。我们每晚都会大声朗读，我这辈子第一次读起了动物百科——虽非自愿选择，但确实学到了很多。

And, you know, it's good it's good for parents and caretakers too, quite frankly. We we read aloud every night. I am reading books about animals for the first time in my life. It's not what I would choose, but you know what? I'm learning a lot.

我对恐龙的了解远超从前，终于能欣赏《夏洛的网》和《天鹅的喇叭》了。你看，我们都能从这个过程中受益。

I know so much more about dinosaurs than I ever did. I've come to finally appreciate Charlotte's Web, Trumpet of the Swan. I mean so we all can learn from this process.

萨迪，我特别喜欢这个想法——最终让你爱上马类书籍的竟会是你的孩子。

I love the idea, Sadie, that it's going to be your child that finally gets you into horse books.

别别去试探命运。

Don't don't tempt fate.

好的。那么，让我们从黑暗转向光明。我想请你们每人推荐一两本书。我在寻找那些你们认为值得年轻读者花时间阅读，能真正引起他们共鸣的书。刘易斯？

Okay. Well, let's move away from the dark towards the light. I'd love to ask each of you for one or two book recommendations. I'm looking for books that you think would be worth the young reader's time, something that they'd really connect to. Lewis?

我得先说明一下，我自己的女儿已经38岁了。我以前常以访问作家的身份去学校，但已经有二十年没这么做了。所以我认识的作家都是二三十或四十年前写作的那些。我特别喜欢洛伊丝·劳里写的《记忆传授人》和凯瑟琳·佩特森的《通往特雷比西亚的桥》。

I should preface this by saying my own daughter is 38. I used to go to do a lot of school visits as a visiting author, but I haven't done that for like twenty years. So the authors I know are the ones who wrote between twenty and thirty or forty years ago. And the ones I really liked were Lois Lowry who did The Give Her and Catherine Paterson, Bridge to Terbithia.

《通往特雷比西亚的桥》。

Bridge to Terbithia.

还有《了不起的吉莉·霍普金斯》。这两本书都让我非常感动。

And also the great Gilly Hopkins. Both those books I found very moving.

《了不起的吉莉·霍普金斯》，真高兴你提到它。我觉得它被提及得不够多，但对我来说那也是本重要的书。对于那些不了解的人，这本书讲的是一个在寄养系统中的女孩，她并不是那种立刻讨人喜欢的主角，但涉及了成人主题、疏离感以及某些社会问题。我最近没重读，你可以告诉我它是否过时了。但我记得——用‘爱’这个词不太准确，因为某种程度上它读起来很沉重——但在大约十岁时，我觉得它极具冲击力。

Great Gilly Hopkins, I'm so glad you mentioned it. I feel like it doesn't get mentioned enough, but that is was a form of the book for me too. And for those who don't know, it's about a girl who's in the foster care system and isn't necessarily an immediately likable heroine, but it deals with adult themes and themes of alienation and and certain social things, which I haven't read it lately, but you can tell me if it's dated. But I remember loving is the wrong word because it it was in some ways a hard read, but finding it incredibly impactful at about 10.

好的。那么，萨迪，你有什么推荐？

Okay. So, Sadie, what are your recommendations?

我是说，从何说起呢？你有《红色羊齿草的故乡》、《通往特雷比西亚的桥》、《黑鸟湖畔的女巫》、《声音》、《数星星》、《巴兹尔小姐的混乱档案》、《弗兰克·韦勒》、《珍妮弗·哈克尼》、《麦克白》、《威廉·麦金利》和《米娅·伊丽莎白》。但如果非要选一本，那必须是《黑暗中的恐怖故事》。是的，艾伦·施瓦茨的书，我知道吉尔伯特小时候也很喜欢。我觉得它篇幅短小。

I mean, where to begin? You've got Where the Red Fern Grows, Red Chaterabithia, Witch of Blackbird Pond, Sounder, Number the Stars, Mixup Files of Miss Basile, Frank Weiler, Jennifer Hackney, Macbeth, William McKinley, and Mia Elizabeth. But if I had to give it to one, it has got to be Scary Stories to Tell in the Dark Yes. Alan Schwartz, which is a book I know Gilbert also enjoyed as a child. I think it is short format.

它既诡异又有趣。如果你对超自然事物有一丝兴趣，而且我们正进入那个季节（万圣节前后），没有比这更好的选择了。你会和鬼魂成为终身挚友。

It's spooky. It's fun. If you are drawn at all to the supernatural and we're entering that time of year, Nothing better. And you will have made in ghosts a friend for life.

萨迪，我显然不能再更爱这个推荐了。这本书小时候把我吓得半死，尤其是那些插图。我甚至不知道现在版本是否还用那些插图——它们恐怖到这种程度。我爱死它们了。

I obviously could not love this recommendation more, Sadie. This book scared the crap out of me when I was kid, particularly the illustrations. I don't even know if they use the illustrations anymore. That's how scary they were. I love them.

我想补充一本几年前和儿子共读的书，我们都非常喜欢。这也是部经典：《幻象天堂》诺顿·贾斯特著。我提起它是因为我之前从未读过，童年时没人给我读过，自己也没接触过。

I wanna throw in the mix a book that I read with my son a couple of years ago and which we both loved. It's another classic. This is the Phantom Tollbooth by Norton Juster. And the reason I bring this up is because I had never read it before. It was not read to me when I was a child, and it was not one that I had read on my own.

这本书太巧妙了，文字游戏令人捧腹。朱尔斯·费弗的插图，我认为完美诠释了'标志性'这个词的本义——不是如今被滥用的那种错误用法。我迫不及待想重读，实际上想再给长大些的儿子读一遍，因为它实在太令人愉悦了。《幻象天堂》就是这样的存在。

And it is so clever. And the wordplay is incredibly amusing. The illustrations by Jules Feifer are, I think, iconic in the right use of that word, not in the way that everyone seems to use it these days, which is incorrectly. I I I can't wait to read it again, and I would actually like to read it my son who's a little bit older again because it was such a delightful one. So the Phantom Tollbooth.

我也超爱《幻象天堂》。

I love the Phantom Tollbooth as well.

你小时候读过吗？

Did you read it when you were

我在高中时读过。嗯。他还有一本非常有趣的书，就叫《点与线》，这是一本关于线条爱上圆点的图画书，圆点最终爱上了一条曲线。书中讲述了线条能比曲线做更多事情，它开始创造出各种复杂的几何形状，而曲线只会扭来扭去。

I read it in high school. Mhmm. And he has another book that's very fun called just called The Dot and the Line, and it's just this picture book about a it's it's about a line being in love with a dot, and the dot ends up falling for a squiggle. And it's all about, you know, how the line can do so much more than a squiggle, and it does start seeing all these elaborate geometric shapes where all the squiggle could do is squiggle.

我从没听说过这本书，我要赶紧回家找来读一读。

I've never heard of that one, and I'm gonna rush home and and pick that one up.

我也是。

Me too.

我想再提一本书，呼应你之前推荐的《黑暗中的恐怖故事》。这是给稍大些孩子看的系列，由凯瑟琳·阿登创作，首部叫《小小空间》。主角是个11岁女孩，名叫艾莉。

I would love to mention one more book just to sort of echo your early recommendations of scary stories to tell in the dark. This is for kids that are slightly older. It is a series written by Katherine Arden that begins with a book called Small Spaces. It stars an 11 year old girl. Her name is Ali.

她结交了一群朋友，在四本书里他们共同面对各种恐怖事件——有些相当吓人。第一本里有个叫'微笑先生'的角色，光听这名字你就知道孩子是否适合读这类书。我家那位现在11岁的孩子，九岁左右就读了这些，还反复读了好几遍，书写得确实很棒。

She develops a group of friends, and they have to deal with creepy stuff over four books, some very creepy stuff. In the first one, there's a character named the quote smiling man, which I feel like that's all I have to say, and you'll know whether or not your child is prepared to read a book like that. Mine, who is again now 11, read these when he was nine or so, but he really sort of he's read them several times, and they're quite well written.

看来我有这么多好书可以期待。我也在考虑开学季读物，我们刚开始上幼儿园。刚给他读了《麻烦的雷梦拉》，他超喜欢。这书写得太好了——如果你很久没重读的话，作者对小孩心理的把握，雷梦拉被误解时的痛苦都刻画得细腻入微，还特别幽默。

I mean, I have all this to look forward to. I was thinking about good back to school books too, and we're starting kindergarten. So we just read Ramona the Pest to him, and he loved it. And that book is so good. If you haven't read that one specifically in a long time, the way she gets in a small child's head and the pain Ramona feels at being misunderstood is is so well done, so sensitively, and it's so incredibly funny.

那是贝芙莉·克莱瑞写的雷梦拉系列中的一本。

That's one of the Ramona books by Beverly Cleary.

贝弗利·克莱瑞的作品。没错。另一本适合返校季阅读的好书是《尼尔森小姐失踪了》，配有詹姆斯·马歇尔的经典插画，作者是哈里·阿拉德。这本书让学校生活显得既有趣又神秘，甚至对年幼的孩子来说也充满了魔法般的奇妙体验。强烈推荐。

By Beverly Cleary. Yeah. And another good back to school pick is Miss Nelson is Missing with the iconic James Marshall illustrations. It's by Harry Allard and just make school seem kind of fun and mysterious and and prone to magical happenings, even for very young children. So recommend it.

我就知道你会再塞一本进来。选得好，萨迪。刚才是我与萨迪·斯坦和路易斯·萨克关于返校季以及我们童年所读书籍的对话。我是《纽约时报书评》编辑吉尔伯特·克鲁兹。感谢收听。

I knew you're gonna sneak in one more. Good one, Sadie. That was my conversation with Sadie Stein and Lewis Sacker about back to school season and the books that we remember reading when we were younger. I'm Gilbert Cruz, editor of the New York Times Book Review. Thanks for listening.