2025年对书籍意味着什么？

出版界加大了力度。

Publishing stepped up.

出版行业中有许多人非常努力地对抗这种趋势。

There were people in the publishing business that really worked very hard to counter this.

梅隆基金会或其他机构。

The Mellon foundation or outside.

梅隆基金会今年向诗歌领域提供了大量资金。

The Mellon foundation gave tons of money to poetry this year.

我觉得他们给了大约五千万。

Think they gave like 50,000,000.

值得注意的是，负责梅隆基金会的伊丽莎白·亚历山大是一位诗人。

It's worth noting that Elizabeth Alexander who runs the Mellon foundation is a poet.

但向诗歌组织提供五千万美元，这是一笔巨款。

But $50,000,000 to poetry organizations is, that's a lot of money.

他们并不是唯一的资助方。

They're not the only one.

事实上，有一位捐赠者，我想是捐给了无拘无束出版社。

In fact, a donor to I think it was Restless Books.

他们有一个移民写作奖。

They have an immigrant writing prize.

董事会中的一位人士资助了这个奖项，以确保它在今年不会倒闭。

One of the people on the board funded that prize in order to make sure that it didn't go under this year.

亚历山德拉和我们的另一位图书行业记者莉兹·哈里斯，对书店进行了出色的报道，它们在政府停摆期间向领取食品券的人提供罐头食品。

Alexandra and Liz Harris, our other book business reporter, did some wonderful reporting on bookstores, getting canned goods to people who were food stamp recipients during the government shutdown.

图书行业挺身而出。

The book business stepped up.

他们努力做有益的事。

They tried to do good work.

他们一直都在这样做。

They always do.

但你看到了一些地方，那里出现了空缺，他们看着说：我们必须填补这个空缺。

But you saw places where there was a hole in the ground that they looked at and said, we have to fill this.

很高兴我们有一点积极的进展。

I'm glad we have a little uplift.

这里有一点积极的进展。

A little uplift here.

我之前感觉不太好。

I was feeling bad.

但你说得对。

But you're right.

你完全正确。

You're absolutely right.

那你怎么说，亚历山德拉？

What about you, Alexandra?

2025年是怎样的一年？

2025 was what type of year?

那是空白的一年。

It was the year of blank.

对我来说，2025年是粉丝文化像在其他众多文化领域一样渗透到主流出版业的一年。

Me, it was really the year of fan culture infiltrating mainstream publishing just like it has in so many areas of culture.

但三部由《哈利·波特》同人小说改编成的爱情小说问世，我认为是一次惊人的转折。

But the arrival of three Harry Potter fan fiction novels transformed into romantic novels was, I think, a stunning turn.

这不仅仅是因为它们最初是同人作品。

And not just because they started as fan fiction.

我们之前已经见过类似情况，比如《五十度灰》最初就是《暮光之城》的同人小说。

We've seen this before with big books like 50 Shades of Grey started off as Twilight fan fiction.

但不同的是，出版商迅速抢购了这些在网络上拥有庞大受众的书籍，并将它们宣传为《哈利·波特》同人小说——这有点游走在版权法的灰色地带，但并未越界。

But what was different was that the publishers moved really quickly to snap up these books that had huge audiences online and marketed them as Harry Potter fan fiction, which is like getting you into a little bit of a copyright law gray area, but without crossing any lines.

它们真正接纳了这些作品源自网络文化这一事实。

It just really embraced the fact that these were works that evolved out of that online culture.

因为读者们正在接受它。

Because the readers are embracing it.

对吧？

Right?

这发生在Raylo之后。

This was after Raylo.

艾莉·黑伍德写了《星球大战》中凯洛·伦和蕾伊的同人小说，许多其他浪漫小说作家也由此进入这一领域。

Ali Hazelwood did Kylo Ren, Rey fan fiction from Star Wars, and a lot of other romance writers have come through that.

那是几年前的事了，但今年是《哈利·波特Dramani》的年份。

And that was a few years ago, but this was the year of Harry Potter Dramani.

你能告诉我们这些书是什么吗？

Can you tell us what those books were?

我们已经谈过其中一本，《炼金术》，我认为每个人都会预料到它会大受欢迎，因为它自带庞大的现有读者群。

We already talked about one of them, Alchemize, which I think everyone expected it to be big just because it came with this existing audience.

这简直是

It's like the biggest

今年最重磅的处女作。

Debut of the year for sure.

年。

Year.

在同人小说领域，这也是最热门、阅读量最高的同人作品之一。

Also in fan fiction spaces, it's like one of the biggest, most read fan pieces of fan fiction, period.

是的。

Yes.

它被包装成一部融合了黑暗奇幻元素的重磅奇幻爱情小说，而这正是当前大家极度追捧的类型。

It was packaged as this kind of blockbuster fantasy romance novel with dark fantasy elements, which is what everyone's super into right now.

但看到它在纸质书市场真正崛起，我不得不说，这本书很长。

But to see it really rise in print, I mean, it's a long book.

它几乎有整整一千页。

It's almost a thousand pages long.

人们如饥似渴地阅读它，销量已超过七十万册，对于一部作品来说，这是个惊人的数字。

People are devouring it, and it's sold more than 700,000 copies, which is a huge number for

什么？

what?

连续十一二周登上畅销书榜。

Eleven, twelve weeks on the bestseller list.

对吧？

Right?

这些读者要么已经在网上免费读过，很多人只是特别希望拥有纸质版摆在书架上，也有人是在BookTok上听说了这本书。

And so these are readers who have either read it for free online already, and many of them just really wanted it in print on their bookshelf, or there are people that heard about it on BookTok.

所以对我来说，2025年的故事就是德鲁伊诺。

And so to me, the story of 2025 was Dramione.

这让我有点沮丧，因为出版商只是在提供读者明确想要的东西。

This is vaguely depressing to me because this is publishers just giving readers what they know they want.

没错。

That's true.

这不是发现和创造

It's not discovery and making

人才。

talent.

不是发现。

Not discovery.

这不是在新作家身上冒险。

It's not taking flyers on new writers.

还记得那场守门人之争吗？

Remember the gatekeeper debate?

谁赢了？

Who won?

粉丝们。

The fans.

粉丝赢了。

The fans won.

我觉得推特上有很多争论。

Well, I think there was a lot of argument on Twitter.

你还记得吗？

Do you remember that?

现在叫x了。

Now known as x.

现在被称为x。

Now known as x.

人们经常讨论出版商是守门人。

There were often conversations about publishers are gatekeepers.

他们把某些类型的文学排除在外。

They are keeping types of literature out.

他们把某些类型的作家排除在外。

They are keeping types of writers out.

他们把有色人种作家排除在外。

They're keeping writers of color out.

他们把酷儿作家排除在外。

They're keeping queer writers out.

我认为出版业已经明显进行了调整，我们对此已有报道。

I think there has been an obvious course correction in the publishing industry and we've covered it.

但我也认为，在某些方面，出版商几乎是在说：我们知道，只要满足人们的需求，我们就能赚钱。

But I also think that in some ways, publishers have almost said, well, we know we're gonna get money if we give the people what they want.

所以，我们就给人们他们想要的，然后我们就能赚钱。

So let's give the people what they want, and then we'll make money.

对。

Right.

这种循环论证式的决定，在某种程度上是一种责任的逃避。

And that sort of tautological decision is in some ways an abdication of responsibility.

对。

Right.

但现在我们又要回到小型出版社，因为大型出版社正在这么做。

But now we go back to small presses again because as the big presses are doing this.

是的。

Yeah.

正是这些小型出版社在接手这些内容。

This is where the small places are picking this stuff up.

现在这是小型出版社的粉丝俱乐部了吗？

This is a small press fan club now?

确实是。

It is.

确实如此。

This is indeed.

我们有帽子，或者很快会有。

We have hats or we will.

我惊喜地发现，我会统计《书评》一年中所做的所有事情。

I I was pleasantly surprised to see I keep stats on everything the Book Review does during the course of the year.

因为她什么都知道。

Because she knows everything.

没错。

Exactly.

但我们review了130多家小型出版社的书籍。

But we reviewed books by over a 130 small presses.

这太惊人了。

That is amazing.

这大概只是现存数量的四十分之一吧？

And that's like, what, a fortieth of how many exists?

对。

Right.

有太多了。

There are so many.

我知道。

I know.

他们做了如此出色的工作。

And they do such wonderful work.

只要公共图书馆还存在，就去那里问问你最喜欢的图书管理员，他们喜欢哪些小型出版社。

And it is really go to your public library as long as they exist and ask your favorite librarian what small presses they love.

看着他们眼睛发亮。

Watch them beam at you.

所以这是个特别推荐。

So this is a shout out.

是的。

Yeah.

你有你的任务了。

You you have your marching orders.

阅读小出版社的作品，同时去你的图书馆。

Read small presses and also go to your library.

对。

Right.

我们接下来会继续我们的对话，但首先，我认为我们应该休息一下。

We are gonna continue with our conversation, but first, I think we should take a quick break.

现在，你可能希望这些广告赶紧结束。

Right now, you'd probably want these ads to hurry up and finish.

幸运的是，在Capital.com，速度正是我们的强项。

Luckily, at capital.com, speed is kind of our thing.

很快就能完成账户设置。

Get your account set up in no time.

以实时价格交易，享受快速执行，让你有更多时间做更重要的事，比如回到你最爱的播客。

Trade real time prices with speedy executions, giving you time to do the more important things, like getting back to your favorite podcast.

前往 capital.com，了解我们如何帮助你更聪明地交易。

Head to capital.com to find out how we can help you trade smarter.

只需几秒钟即可完成。

It'll only take a second.

差价合约具有高风险。

CFDs involve a high level of risk.

百分之八十三的散户投资者亏损。

Eighty three percent of retail investors lose money.

我给我弟弟订了一份《纽约时报》的订阅。

I gave my brother a New York Times subscription.

她送了我一份为期一年的订阅，让我可以访问所有游戏。

She sent me a yearlong subscription so I have access to all the games.

我们会玩字谜、迷你字谜和拼字游戏。

We'll do Wordle, Mini, Spelling Bee.

它让我们建立了个人联系。

It has given us a personal connection.

我们会交换文章。

We exchange articles.

既然读了同一篇文章，我们就可以讨论它。

And so having read the same article, we can discuss it.

报道和内容选择不止是新闻。

The coverage, the options, it's not just news.

如此多元化的版面。

Such a diversified disc.

我非常兴奋地送了他一份《纽约时报》烹饪订阅，这样我们就能分享食谱了。

I was really excited to give him a New York Times cooking subscription so that we could share recipes.

就在前几天，我们还分享了一个食谱。

And we even just shared a recipe the other day.

《纽约时报》增进了我们共度的优质时光。

The New York Times contributes to our quality time together.

你随时可以获取所有这些信息。

You have all of that information at your fingertips.

它丰富了我们的关系，拓宽了我们的视野。

It enriches our relationship, broadening our horizons.

这是一份非常酷且贴心的礼物。

It was such a a cool and thoughtful gift.

我们在读同样的内容。

We're reading the same stuff.

我们在做同样的饭菜。

We're making the same food.

我们想法一致。

We're on the same page.

与你关心的人建立更紧密的联系。

Connect even more with someone you care about.

了解更多关于赠送《纽约时报》订阅作为礼物的信息，请访问 nytimes.com/gift。

Learn more about giving a New York Times subscription as a gift at nytimes.com/gift.

我们回来了。

And we're back.

这是书评播客。

This is the book review podcast.

我是MJ·富兰克林。

I'm MJ Franklin.

我正在与我的同事蒂娜·乔丹、亚历山德拉·阿尔特和约翰·马尔交谈，我们正在讨论2025年的图书界。

I'm talking to my colleagues, Tina Jordan, Alexandra Alter, and John Marr, and we're talking about 2025 in books.

亚历山德拉，你提到这是粉丝小说的一年，但你能跟我聊聊 romantasy 整体情况吗？

Alexandra, you mentioned it was the year of fan fiction, but can you talk to me a little bit about romantasy overall?

那真是一个巨大的趋势。

That was such a huge huge trend.

我们是否仍处于 romantasy 为王、为后、为龙的时代？

Are we still in a space where romantasy is king, queen, and dragon?

现在发生了什么？

What's happening?

目前出版界的主要趋势是什么？

What are the big trends in publishing right now?

主要的类型有哪些？

What are the big genres?

是《与我交谈》。

Is Talk to me.

真是个好问题。

Such a great question.

我认为每个出版商现在都在努力寻找答案。

I think every publisher is trying to figure that out right now.

这种浪漫幻想热潮是否已经饱和？

Has this romantasy craze been saturated?

它是否已经达到顶峰？

Is it peaking?

《龙军校》浪漫幻想系列的作者丽贝卡·亚罗斯，今年仅在印刷版和电子版（不含有声书）就售出了超过七百万册，远超去年。

Rebecca Yaros, the author of the Dragon Military Academy romantasy books, she sold more than 7,000,000 copies this year in just print and digital, not counting audio, and way above last year.

所以从她的角度来看，市场需求非常旺盛。

So certainly on her side, there's a huge appetite.

像莎拉·莫斯这样的作者，也有巨大的需求。

Authors like Sarah Moss, a huge appetite.

一些新人正在崛起，比如卡莉·哈特。

Some newcomers are breaking out like Callie Hart.

因此，仍然有很多人想读这些书。

So there's still a big chunk of people who wanna read these books.

我认为问题在于，他们是否已经出版和购买了太多这类作品？

I think the question is, have they now published and bought too many of them?

接下来会有什么呢？嗯。

What's coming Mhmm.

在未来几年？

In the next few years?

出版商已经开始谈论，或许 romantasy 正在逐渐降温，而人们现在真正喜欢的是什么。

Publishers have started to talk about maybe the romantacy starting to fizzle and what people really love right now.

令我大为惊讶又有点不安的是黑暗浪漫，比如黑手党浪漫、阴影型爹系，我了解到，这些不幸的角色是坏人，非常糟糕，但他们深爱着女主角，这就让他们显得有点好。

To my great surprise and bit of alarm is dark romance, which is like mafia romance, shadow daddies who I learned, unfortunately, are, bad guys who are really terrible, but they love the heroin, so that makes them kind of good.

什么？

What?

是的。

Yes.

所以是黑暗浪漫。

So so dark romance.

这另一类题材在粉丝小说和自助出版中迅速兴起。

This is another thing that took off really in fan fiction, a lot in self publishing.

一旦出版商注意到——哦，人们确实想读这些书，其中很多内容相当禁忌，涉及一些道德模糊的领域，比如说。

And once publishers notice, okay, people do wanna read these things, a lot of them are, like, quite taboo and get into some morally gray areas, let's say.

嗯。

Yeah.

据我理解，黑暗浪漫中的很多情节在同意问题上都是模糊不清的。

I was gonna say it's from my understanding, dark romance is a lot of consent dubious.

是的。

Yes.

确实如此。

There is that.

或者绑架之类的事情，几年前出版商对出版这类内容会非常犹豫。

Or kidnappings and things that I think publishers would have been really nervous about publishing a few years ago.

但现在既然已经有了真正的市场，他们能赚钱了，所以突然间我们愿意冒这个险。

But now that there's a real market for it and they can make money, you know, it's suddenly we can take a risk on that.

我认为他们看到了像《五十度灰》这样的书，以前没人见过这样的书摆在Target和巴诺书店的显眼位置。

I think they've seen things like 50 shades of gray, which no one had seen a book like that at the front of Target and Barnes and Noble before.

所以他们总是在突破界限，而浪漫小说正是他们这样做的领域之一。

So they're always pushing the envelope, and romance is one of those places where they do that.

但没错，我认为这个市场正在发生相当大的变化。

But, yeah, I think I think that market is shifting quite a bit.

除非你是梅尔·罗宾斯，否则非虚构类书籍这段时间一直很难做。

It's been a really tough time for nonfiction unless you're Mel Robbins.

她的《让他们理论》一书今年已售出数百万册。

Her Let Them Theory book has sold millions of copies this year.

这本书去年出版，但至今仍位居畅销榜榜首。

It came out last year, but it's still on the top of the bestseller list.

但我觉得在其他主题上，正在发生两件事。

But I think when it comes to other subjects, there's two things happening.

一是人们对新闻和新闻周期感到极度疲惫，可能不想再接触任何太严肃的内容。

One is people are really exhausted by the news and the news cycle, and they just maybe don't wanna engage with anything too serious.

还有人转向像ChatGPT或YouTube这样的平台，以获取食谱、解答问题或规划旅行。

And there's also people turning to, like, ChatGPT or YouTube if they want a recipe or they have a question or they're planning a trip.

信息生态系统的形态已经发生了变化，书籍不再总是首选的信息来源。

It's like the information ecosystem has kind of morphed in a way that books aren't the go to place always

for

for

这类事情。

that kind of thing.

对我来说，我们之前讨论过ChatGPT对出版商和谷歌的挑战，但我从未想过它可能如何挑战长篇非虚构作品和书籍。

To me because we've talked about chat GPT challenging publishers, challenging Google, but I never thought about how I might challenge long form nonfiction and books.

尤其是在那些被称为书籍的实用类内容中，比如旅行指南、野外指南，这类过去人们希望拥有权威来源的资料。

And particularly in those called books or any anything practical, a travel guide, a field guide, just things of that nature where you used to wanna have a solid authority.

而现在，互联网或许就能提供答案。

And now maybe the Internet or can provide an answer.

所以你的意思是《纽约时报烹饪》需要开发一个安迪·巴尔加尼机器人。

So what you're saying is Times Cooking needs to make an Andy Bargani bot.

我的意思是，这个想法不公平。

I mean, that's not fair idea.

解决问题吧。

Solve the problem.

一个安迪机器人，我们正在

An Andy bot We're

可能正在开发这个

probably working on This

这是我们现实世界中的反乌托邦小说的开端。

is the start of our own IRL dystopian novel.

机器人告诉我们做这道菜、那道菜， blah blah blah。

The bots have told us to cook blah blah blah blah blah.

现在所有的

And now all of

人类都在 blah blah blah。

humanity is blah blah blah.

无论如何，我很高兴你提到了非虚构作品，因为过去几周里，蒂娜和我一直在讨论：那种内容扎实、讲述故事并深入探讨为何这个故事值得被讲述的非虚构作品，真的非常有收获。

Anyway I'm really glad you brought up nonfiction because one of the conversations that Tina and I have been having over the past few weeks in particular is that really, really meaty nonfiction nonfiction that tells a story and gets deep into the thick of why that story is worth telling is so rewarding.

它在哪里？

And where is it?

它在哪里？

Where is it?

这正是我想说的，今年对我来说，真正令人满意的非虚构作品实在太少了。

And that was what I was going to say about this year for me was that I there was just a dearth of really satisfying nonfiction.

有一部分我和你有过这样的讨论，约翰。

And there was a piece of me we've you and I have had this discussion, John.

我怀疑出版商只是不敢在这一年安排出版计划，因为他们不确定大选后国家的情绪会如何。

I wondered if publishers were just wary to schedule things for this year because they didn't know what the mood in the country was going to be after the election.

每次总统大选后，他们似乎都会对什么会流行感到惊讶。

They were surprised they're surprised after every presidential election, it seems, by what becomes popular.

所以我想也许他们是在推迟出版。

And so I thought maybe they're holding things back.

但我们正在查看明年的书目，我并没有看到明年会有这样的作品。

And yet we're looking at catalogs and seeing things for next year, I'm not seeing it for next year.

我能稍微拆解一下吗？

Can I pull this apart a little bit?

我想知道你所说的‘厚重的非虚构作品’是什么意思？

I'm curious what you mean by meaty nonfiction.

过去的例子有哪些？

What are past examples?

而且

And

就像大卫·格兰那样。

Something like David Grann.

好的。

Okay.

我的意思是，确实有一些。

I mean, there were some.

别误会。

Don't get me wrong.

并不是说完全没有这类书，但像大卫·格雷厄姆的这本书。

It's not that there was none of this, but, yeah, a book like a David Graham book.

你觉得是我们缺少了这种深度吗？

Do you think it's that is it the meatiness that we were missing?

那是一本很长的书。

That was a long book.

而且我觉得我们讨论过的一本书，是我们十大最佳书籍之一，比如《海上婚姻》。

And I feel like one book we talked a lot about, it was one of our 10 best, was A Marriage at Sea, for instance.

嗯。

Mhmm.

非常详尽，非常深入，但篇幅很短。

Very thorough, very in-depth, but slim.

对吧？

Right?

对。

Right.

其他的《海上婚姻》去哪儿了？

Where were the rest of the Marriage at Seas?

因为通常来说，尤其是叙事类非虚构作品，应该会有不少这样的书。

Because usually, there would have been any number of books that of narrative nonfiction especially

特别是。

in particular.

特别是吉布雷克斯。

With Gibrex in particular.

是的。

Yes.

但通常这类书很多

But there are usually a lot

这类书。

of those.

有这么多技艺精湛的作家能把这类作品写得如此出色，但我总觉得我们没怎么看到它们。

There's so many skilled writers who do those so well, and yet I just felt like we didn't really see them.

那么对你来说，这给全年带来了怎样的影响？

So for you then, what did that do to the year overall?

这很有趣。

It was interesting.

我继续阅读，不断寻找，拓宽范围，觉得自己漏掉了什么，还问办公室里的人：我该读这本书吗？

I kept reading further and looking and casting more widely and thinking that I was missing things and asking people on the desk, should I read this?

我该读这个吗？

Should I read that?

但我觉得，约翰，我觉得你、我还有桌上的其他人都有同样的感觉。

But I felt like, John, I felt like you and I and other people on the desk sort of all feel the same way.

是的。

Yeah.

我也从编辑那里听过这种说法。

And I've heard this from editors too.

我听编辑们说，市场不存在，他们觉得他们的国际同行不想购买，而且他们觉得读者群体根本不存在。

I've heard from editors that the market isn't there, that they feel like their international colleagues don't want to buy it, and and they feel like the readership isn't really there.

我的意思是，我听过多少次非虚构类编辑说，严肃的非虚构类作品卖不动了。

I mean, the number of times that I have heard non fiction editors say, serious non fiction isn't selling.

甚至在今年早些时候伦敦书展上，有编辑亲自来找我说，别相信那些炒作。

Even the ones who came up to me in London Book Fair earlier this year and said, don't believe the hype.

这本书会卖得很好。

It's gonna sell.

当我夏天结束时或秋季法兰克福书展前与他们交谈时，这两个年度最重要的书展，他们都觉得他们对这本书卖不动的判断是对的。

When I talked to them at the end of the summer or before the Frankfurt Book Fair in fall, the two big book fairs of the year, they were like, I think they were right about it not selling.

有些事情甚至让出版商都感到困惑。

Some of it is a mystery even to the publishers.

人类的思维是一个谜。

The human mind is a mystery.

我们为什么选择这样而不是那样，我们可以尽可能从人类学的角度去分析。

Why we choose what we choose, we can try to be anthropological about it as much as we can.

但有时候，它就是存在于空气中，或者不存在。

But sometimes it's just it is or isn't in the water.

但我认为很多原因只是因为人们筋疲力尽了。

But I think a lot of it is just like people are wiped out.

他们真的筋疲力尽了。

They're wiped out.

思考复杂的历史——无论是叙事性的还是非叙事性的——都是一项严肃的投入。

And it is a serious investment to think about complex history, whether it's narrative or not.

复杂的新闻报道，无论是叙事性的还是非叙事性的。

Complex journalism, whether it's narrative or not.

今年销量不错的非虚构类书籍，很多都是自助类书籍。

The nonfiction that has sold this year, a lot of the nonfiction that has sold this year really well, has been self help.

是的。

Yeah.

我认为这是因为人们希望有人告诉他们：没错，就是这样。

And and I think it's because people wanna be told, yes, that's it.

你做得对。

You're doing it.

而不是直接告诉你：有些人根本没做到。

Rather than, here are some people who didn't do it really, really bluntly.

让我们说，我不知道。

And let's I don't know.

也许现在信息太多了。

Maybe it's just too much right now.

亚历山德拉，你刚才插话了。

Alexandra, you just chimed in a sec.

嗯。

Yep.

你注意到了什么？

What are you noticing?

你在想什么？

What are you thinking?

有趣的是，我们已经讨论过‘让他们去’理论，以及为什么它这么受欢迎。

Well, interestingly, we already talked about the less, you know, the Let Them Theory and why that's such a hit.

但我刚和BookScan的一位人士聊过，他告诉我宗教类书籍的销量显著上升了。

But I just talked to someone at BookScan who was telling me that religious titles are up quite significantly.

《圣经》的销量大幅增长。

Sales of the bible are up quite a lot.

而任何属于自助类别的书籍，都是非虚构类中表现强劲的领域。

And anything in the kind of self help genre, that's where they're seeing the strength in nonfiction.

所以我觉得很有趣。

So I think Interesting.

人们希望被告知他们会好起来的。

Wanna be told that they're gonna be okay.

所以

And so

希望被

wanna be

被告知你和涂色书又回来了。

told that you and coloring books are back.

成人涂色书又回来了？

Adult coloring books are back?

是的。

Yes.

人们要么想涂色，要么想被告知他们会好起来的。

People want to either be coloring or be told that they will be okay.

因为成人涂色书在2016年左右曾是一个巨大的潮流，然后就渐渐淡出了。

Because adult coloring books, that was like a giant trend in, what, 2016 and then kinda fell away.

其实上世纪六十年代也是这样。

Also in the nineteen sixties.

我的意思是，这每二十年就会兴起一次潮流。

I mean, it's a trend, like, every 20.

有意思。

Interesting.

是的。

Yeah.

这说明了当下人们渴望什么吗？

What does it say about this moment that people wanna

这个国家正面临地缘政治危机吗？

Is there a geopolitical crisis in the country?

我不知道。

I don't know.

但我记得曾经在《纽约时报》档案中找到一篇关于20世纪60年代成人涂色书的文章，当时最畅销的是约翰·伯奇协会。

But I remember once finding an article in the Times archives about adult coloring books in the nineteen sixties, and the big seller was, like, the John Birch Society.

读者群体多种多样。

Readers contain multitude.

是的。

Yeah.

我想是这样。

I guess

所以。

so.

一个有趣的例外，我必须说，它的销量之高确实让我惊讶，那就是卡玛拉·哈里斯的回忆录《一百零七天》。

One interesting exception, and I have to say the strength of the sales really surprised me, is Kamala Harris's memoir, a hundred and seven days.

我认为它已经售出了超过60万册，而在人们可能并不想过多关注去年大选、政治类书籍当前处境艰难的时刻，这本书却引发了极大的兴趣。

It has sold, I think, more than 600,000 copies, which at a moment when people probably don't wanna think too much about last year's election and political books are a really tricky era right now, there seems to just be a ton of interest in this book.

她的图书巡回签售。

Her book tour.

她为明年的书签活动增加了另一站。

She added another leg of her book tour for next year.

日期。

Dates.

是的。

Yeah.

那又怎样？

So What?

我不能。

I can't

我也不明白这个。

I don't understand this either.

我觉得这对我来说完全令人费解，部分原因是这是一本如此具体的回忆录。

Nobody under I feel like this is absolutely baffling to me in in part because it's like, it's such a specific memoir.

嗯。

Mhmm.

也许这正是它成功的原因之一——我们仍然想知道她内心在想什么，他们内心在想什么。

And maybe that's part of why it did work that there's still this, like, we wanna know what was going on in her head, what was going on in their heads.

也许就是这样。

Maybe that's it.

这本回忆录的另一个特点是，里面没什么新闻性内容。

The thing about this memoir too is there's not a lot of news in it.

我们几乎已经知道里面的所有事情。

We know almost everything in it.

那么是什么推动了这些销量呢？

So what propelled these sales?

我还没机会读它，因为我读书通常受限于我那周正在写的内容。

I haven't had a chance to read it because I am often limited in my reading by what I'm writing about, like, that week.

所以事情就被推迟了，但人们说它很引人入胜，因为你确实能看到每分钟的决定及其影响。

And so things get pushed back, but people say it's kind of a page turner because you do get to see the minute by minute decisions and their impact.

而且我认为杰拉尔丁·布鲁克斯与她合作了这一点，通常情况下，你可能根本不会提及你的代笔作者，甚至会保密。

And I think the fact that Geraldine Brooks worked with her on it, normally, you would maybe not even credit your ghostwriter or keep it a secret.

但找一位小说家和

But certainly getting someone who's a novelist And a

真正的作家。

real writer.

一位能如此构建叙事的真正作家兼记者，我认为这起到了关键作用。

And a real writer and a journalist who can craft a narrative like that, I think that made a difference.

所以也许人们并不是因为新闻才来看这本书，而是为了一个精彩的故事。

So maybe it's not people are coming to it for specifically the news, but they're coming to it for a yarn.

对。

Right.

没错。

Yeah.

那感觉怎么样？

What was it like?

与大多数政治家的回忆录，即使是大卖的那些，相比如何。

Mind what most politician memoirs, even big best selling ones, are like.

完全没有披露。

No no disclosures whatsoever.

是的。

Yeah.

或者甚至

Or Even

即使有披露，或者即使他们自己写的，通常也写得不够优美。

if they're disclosures and or even if they wrote it themselves, they're not usually beautifully written.

让我这么说吧，

Let me just put it So that

这是我们对今年的整体感受。

that's our sense of the year overall.

对我来说，我觉得这是失落的一年。

For me, I was like, it was the lost year.

不过有人纠正我，约翰，这是失去的一年，但也有应对的方法。

Though I've been corrected, John, it was the year of losses, though there are ways to combat them.

亚历山德拉，这是粉丝小说和浪漫幻想的一年。

Alexandra, it was the year of fan fiction and romantasy.

蒂娜，这是摇摆不定的非虚构作品的一年。

Tina, it was the year of wavering nonfiction.

对。

Right.

现在我很好奇。

Now I'm just curious.

我想再扩展一下，问问你们，当你们总体回顾2025年时，尤其是从图书角度，还有哪些重要的故事线或新闻事件浮现在你们脑海中？

I wanna pan out a little bit more and ask, what were other big storylines or news events that you think about when you think about twenty twenty five in general, specifically in books?

该蒂娜开始了。

It's Tina's turn to start.

哦，不。

Oh, no.

嗯，我觉得可能是那位先生。

Well, I think I think it might be the Mr.

野兽詹姆斯·帕特森的图书合作交易。

Beast James Patterson book collaboration deal.

我简直不敢相信它竟然这么受欢迎。

I could not believe how popular

你能多说一点吗？

Can you tell us more?

那是什么

What was the

嗯，他们正在一起写一本书。

Well, they're work they're doing a book together.

老实说，我不太清楚詹姆斯·帕特森的书到底是怎么搞出来的。

Like, I'm unclear about how the James Patterson books honestly really

一起完成的。

come together.

但你知道，他和很多名人合作，很多好莱坞人士。

But, you know, he collaborates with all kinds of famous people, a lot of Hollywood folks.

这个合作与其它大型明星作家的合作感觉有什么不同吗？

Did this deal feel different than other types of big celebrity writer collaborators?

我在想，比如希拉里·克林顿和路易丝·彭尼。

I'm thinking about, like, Hillary Clinton and Louise Penny.

对吧？

Right?

那一次是

That was

感觉不一样。

It feel different.

为什么？

Why?

它

It

我也不知道为什么有这种感觉。

felt I don't know why.

它就像是

It's like it

非常热门。

was so buzzy.

每个人都在谈论它，而且他们连续谈论了三个月。

Everyone was talking about it, and they were talking about it for three months.

真有意思。

Go figure.

这很有趣。

This is interesting.

这有点回到了我们之前讨论的话题，即出版商关注文化动态并希望从中分一杯羹。

It kind of goes back to what we were discussing about publishers looking at what's happening in culture and wanting a piece of it.

而在这个案例中，这是詹姆斯·帕特森，我认为他是一位了不起的商人，非常聪明地把握市场动向，涉足你能想到的每一个类型。

And in this case, this was James Patterson, who I think is an incredible business person, is super smart about knowing where the market's going, getting his hand into every single genre you can think of.

他和多莉·帕顿、比尔·克林顿都合作过书籍。

He's done books with Dolly Parton, with Bill Clinton.

所以我认为他可能觉得需要吸引一些更年轻的读者。

And so I think he thought maybe he needed some younger readers.

我这里做了一个假设。

I'm making a sort of assumption here.

但很明显，MrBeast 是一位巨大的 YouTube 明星。

But, obviously, mister Beast is a huge YouTube star.

把他粉丝群体中的部分人吸引到詹姆斯·帕特森的体系中，他有青少年读物，实际上主要是儿童读物，而且读者群体非常庞大。

And getting any of his fan base over into the James Patterson ecosystem, he has his young adult books or they're actually middle grade, and he has huge readership there.

但我认为在二十岁左右或青少年这个年龄段可能存在一点空白。

But I think there was maybe a little gap in the middle with 20 or teens.

而且，说实话，这是我写过的第一个让我孩子说‘哇，你要去采访 MrBeast 了’的话题。

And, I mean, this was the first one of the first things that I've written about where my kids were like, oh, you're gonna get to interview mister Beast.

我当时觉得，大概不会吧。

I was like, probably not.

他们实际上对这个很感兴趣。

They were actually interested in that.

所以他们不知道詹姆斯·帕特森是谁。

So they didn't know who James Patterson was.

这个整个小说概念感觉像一个填字游戏。

This entire novel concept feels like a mad lib.

当我在伦敦书展听到这个消息时，我就是这种感觉，当时这本书是每个人都在谈论的焦点。

And that's how I felt when I was hearing about it at the London Book Fair when it was the book that everybody was talking about.

顺便说一下，拜登的回忆录也在伦敦书展上销售。

The Biden memoir, by the way, was also on sale at the London Book Fair.

而米斯特·比斯特和詹姆斯·帕特森合著的这本书，才是人们热议的对象。

And the mister beast James Patterson book was the one that people were talking about.

我再次觉得，这简直像一个失控的填字游戏。

And I just I again, it feels like a Mad Lib gone off the rails.

亲爱的。

Sweetie.

好的。

Okay.

所以这是一件新闻事件。

So that's one news event.

詹姆斯·帕特森，麦斯·贝斯特。

James Patterson, mister Beast.

你呢，亚历山德拉？

What about you, Alexandra?

当你回顾我们至今尚未提及的这一年时，有没有哪件新闻事件或故事线特别让你印象深刻？

Is there something a news event, a storyline that really stands out to you when you think about the year that we haven't mentioned so far?

我其实觉得今年是遗作发布很有趣的一年。

I actually thought it was an interesting year for posthumous releases.

我们有了琼·狄迪恩的治疗笔记，这很引人入胜，但也是一次非常奇怪的出版。

We had Joan Didion's therapy notes, which were fascinating, but also a really strange publication.

对于一位如此精心维护公众形象的人来说，人们对于她是否希望这些日记出版存在很多争议。

For somebody who curated her public image so carefully, I think there was a lot of debate about whether she would have wanted these diaries published.

能再详细说说这次出版是什么情况吗？它奇怪在哪里？

Tell me a little bit more about, yeah, what that publication was, what was strange about it.

是的。

Yeah.

她留下了这些日记。

So she left these diaries behind.

所以，我认为她的出版商和经纪人觉得，如果她反对出版这些内容，她早就该采取行动了。

So clearly, I think her publisher and agent felt like, well, if she had any objections to these being published, she knew what she was doing.

她不会把这些日记随便放在文件柜里。

She wouldn't have left them in a filing cabinet like this.

但她并没有明确说明是否希望这些日记出版。

But she had no explicit instructions about whether or not she wanted to publish them.

这些日记非常私密，尤其是关于她女儿昆塔娜的内容，昆塔娜因疾病不幸离世。

And they're very personal, particularly about her daughter, Quintana, who who died tragically and from a medical condition.

但即使在她最个人化的回忆录中，迪迪翁也一直保护着昆塔娜，从不提及她的酗酒问题。

But Didion had always been, even in her most personal memoirs, so protective of Quintana and not talked about her alcohol issues.

因此，看到这些幕后真实想法，让我们对她的出版作品和回忆录有了更深入的理解。

And so to see some of that behind the scenes, what she was really thinking, it gives you real insight into her published writing and her memoirs.

但我认为这也让她的圈内一些人感到不太舒服。

But I think it also made some people in her inner circle a little uncomfortable.

所以我觉得这是一个很有趣的例子，关于我们在死后出版物上该如何划界，尤其是当作者并没有明确说‘不要出版这些’时，她应享有多少隐私权。

So it was just I thought it was a fascinating example of, like, where do we draw the line with posthumous publications and how much privacy does an is an author owed, particularly when she didn't say don't publish these.

亚历山德拉，你提到了多本死后出版的书籍。

Alexandra, you mentioned posthumous books, plural.

还有哪些其他的书？

What were other books?

我还想到了哈珀·李的故事集，这让我觉得很有意思，因为众所周知，在她职业生涯后期，一本作为《杀死一只知更鸟》前传（实为续集）的作品出版了，当时人们对她出版这本书的意图有很多争议。

I was also thinking of the Harper Lee collection of stories, which to me, that was interesting just because, as everyone knows, late in her career, ups a sort of prequel, which is kind of a sequel to To Kill a Mockingbird came out, and there was a lot of debate at the time over what her intentions were with that book.

这本书她已经搁置了几十年。

She'd had it sitting around for decades.

为什么现在才出版，而她已经这么长时间没有消息了？

Why is it coming out now when she's we haven't heard from her for so long.

人们认为她可能是被迫出版这本书的。

People thought she might have been pressured to publish it.

所以，当一位如此重要的作家有新作问世时，而我们之前已经讨论过她希望出版或不希望出版的内容，这次的讨论远没有那么复杂，但能更多地看到她的作品还是很有意思的。

So anything new by a writer of her stature when we'd had that conversation previously about what she wanted published or not, this was not anywhere near as fraught of a conversation, but it was interesting to see more from her.

而且，是的，回到这些书出版的问题上，我认为每当这种情况发生时，总会引发一些关于作家遗产的有趣问题。

And, yeah, just back to the you know, when these books come out, it always, I think, raises interesting questions about a writer's legacy.

我们是否想看到他们写下的每一个字？

And do we wanna see every last scrap that they wrote?

这又如何影响我们的思考？

And how does that impact our thinking?

约翰，该你了。

John, you're up.

今年你还有什么其他值得注意的新闻事件吗？

What's your other news events notable thing from the year?

MJ，你再也不会让我回来了，因为我太压抑了。

MJ, you're never gonna have me back because I am just so depressing.

哦

Oh,

天啊。

god.

你要带我们去哪儿？

Where are you taking us?

没那么糟的。

It's not gonna be that bad.

我觉得聊这个会很有趣。

I actually think this is gonna be fun to talk about.

但实际上，这关乎书籍媒体，而不是自我沉溺。

But it's actually about and not to navel gaze, but books media.

今年是书籍媒体的艰难一年。

This year was a year of just it was like a hard year for books media.

我想把原因归结为两点。

And I wanna pin it to two things.

我想把原因归结为《芝加哥太阳时报》发布的由AI生成的、包含虚构书籍的夏季阅读清单。

I wanna pin it to the summer reading list created by AI with fake books that was published in the Chicago Sun Times.

还有可能另一份报纸

And maybe one other paper

它被联合刊登了。

It was syndicated.

它被联合刊登了。

It was syndicated.

所以有一份由并非真正作者的人所写的、根本不是书籍的书单，作为宣传在多家报纸上发布，因为它被联合刊登了。

So there was a list of books that were not books by authors who are authors that was published as, I believe, a promotion in multiple papers because it was syndicated.

而且全是垃圾。

And it was all slop.

这对所有相关方都极其尴尬，包括那些作者，他们困惑道：为什么我的名字会被贴在这件我根本没做过的事情上？

And that was exceedingly embarrassing for everybody involved, including authors who were like, why is my name being attached to this thing I didn't do?

你说‘芝加哥有时’是什么意思？

And what do you mean it's in Chicago sometimes?

所以就是这么回事。

So there's that.

我认为这令人沮丧，而且以一种荒诞的方式。

And I think that was dismaying and in a sort of absurdist way.

但更令人沮丧的是，美联社决定不再刊登那些由众多无力聘请自身书评人的报纸 syndicated 的书评。

But dismaying in a sort of existentialist way was the AP deciding that they were no longer going to run book reviews that were syndicated by many many many papers that cannot afford their own books critics.

我认为这表明了一种衰退，而这种衰退，我想我们所有人都早已意识到在某些领域迟早会到来。

And I think this is an indication of a downturn that I think we've all known has been coming in certain places for some time.

我们都清楚，媒体正面临困境，图书出版业也有其自身的困难。

We all know that the media has struggles, and the book publishing business has its struggles.

但今年，这两件事并没有完全接连发生。

But the this year, those two things, they weren't back to back exactly.

我也不能说具体是六月然后七月。

And I can't say it was June and then July.

但对我来说，这感觉像是一记重拳，之后我甚至得用冰敷着下巴。

But to me, it felt like a one two punch, and I was holding, like, ice to my jaw a little after that.

嗯。

Mhmm.

我不确定你们有没有同样的感受。

I I don't know if any of you felt the same way.

我觉得人们发现书籍的方式最近发生了巨大的变化。

I think the shift in the way people discover books has been so extreme recently.

从Goodreads到BookTok，再到亚马逊评论。

It's gone from Goodreads to BookTok to Amazon reviews.

是的，这真是一个令人沮丧的转变。

And, yeah, that was a depressing turn.

但这是我们这里一直在应对的问题。

But it's something we struggle with here.

我们是一家书评刊物。

We are a book review.

我们已经做了一百二十五年的书评了。

We've been a book review for over a hundred and twenty five years.

如果人们不再通过阅读书评来决定下一本要读什么书

If people aren't reading reviews to figure out what they're going to read next

他们是对的吗？

What are they Right?

比如，我们该怎么去接触他们？

Like, how do we where do we meet them?

嗯。

Yeah.

他们到底在读什么？

Where like, what are they reading?

我们怎样才能把内容提供给他们，让他们不至于去问ChatGPT，让ChatGPT生成一份食谱和最佳书籍清单？

And how can we give it to them so that they don't go to ChatGPT and ask ChatGPT to generate a cookbook and best books list.

我会试着保持积极，扭转这个局面。

I'm gonna try to be positive and turn this car around.

但我感觉，尽管如此，这个挑战正是我们在《纽约时报》这里频繁讨论的问题，并且激发了许多创新。

But I feel like that challenge, though, is something that we've been talking a lot about here at The Times, and it's inspired a lot of innovation.

事实上

The fact

我们有这种闲聊式的播客，还有读书会。

that we have these types of chatty podcasts, that we have a book club.

我们一直在制作非常出色的推荐书单、帮你找下一本书的指南，以及通过测验来推荐书籍，与读者互动。

We've been doing really incredible service lists and find your next book guides and quizzes to find books where we're engaging with readers.

哦，我觉得这很棒。

Oh, I think it's been great.

我认为，《纽约时报》图书部门正在认真尝试各种方法并进行实验。

And I think we, at The Times, in the books department, are are thoughtfully trying a lot of things and experimenting.

某种程度上，这真是个令人兴奋的时刻，因为我们完全可以畅想

And in a way, it's kind of an exciting time because we can just dream up

是的。

Yeah.

没错。

Yeah.

我们想尝试的东西。

What we wanna try.

这些是

Those are

是的。

yeah.

2025年。

2025.

天啊。

Oh, man.

真是不平凡的一年。

What a year.

太久了。

So long.

真是漫长的一年。

Such a long year.

我们到了吗？

Are we there yet?

结束了吗？

Is it over yet?

差不多了。

Just about.

差不多了。

Just about.

在我们结束之前，我想问最后一个问题。

I guess my last question before we go.

我让大家都为难了。

I'm putting everyone on the spot.

告诉我一件好事。

Tell me one good thing.

告诉我一件好事。

Tell me one good thing.

抱歉你得经历这个，桑杰。

I'm sorry you had to do this, Sanjay.

我知道这都是我的错。

I know it's all my fault.

这可能是你深爱的一本书，你只是想大声推荐它。

This could be a book that you love that you just wanna shout out.

某样东西突然浮现出来，让你忍不住说：是的，我爱这个。

Something that bubbled up and you're like, yes, I love this.

一段在线对话，某件让你感到愉悦的事情。

An online conversation, something that has delighted you.

告诉我一件好事。

Tell me something good.

我最喜欢的两位作者，他们花了二十年时间要么创作要么试图出版的作品，分别是卡琳达·赛的《索尼娅与桑尼的孤独》。

Two of my favorite authors, least books that they had spent twenty years either working on or trying to get published, Karinda Sai's The Loneliness of Sonia and Sunny.

我有机会就这本书采访了她，她这二十年来什么都没做，只专注于创作这个精彩的故事。

I got to interview her about the book, and it was just here's somebody who did nothing else for the last two decades but create this incredible story.

我发现这非常鼓舞人心，仍然有人愿意如此投入。

And I just found that so inspiring that there are still people who are willing to do that.

然后，《最后的武士》的作者海伦·德威特出版了一本书，这本书是她大约二十年前写成的，多年来一直努力寻求出版。

And then Helen DeWitt, the author of The Last Samurai, came out with a book that she wrote about twenty years ago and has been trying to get published for that long.

看到这个项目终于面世，真是非同寻常。

And it was extraordinary to see that project finally arrive.

太棒了。

Love that.

那你说呢，约翰？

What about you, John?

我承认，我就是那种常被贬低的、非常在线的白人男性读者，热爱拉什·洛德·克拉什纳·霍克西。

I confess that I am the somewhat much maligned kind of very online white male reader who loves Lash Load Krashnah Horckeye.

天啊。

Oh my god.

我太喜欢了，这太棒了。

I am so It's a great

对你来说真是精彩的一年。

year for you.

想见到我的人，我的朋友，我真希望。

To see my man, my personal friend, I wish.

给我打电话。

Call me.

给我们打电话。

Call us.

求你了。

Please.

我们非常希望做个采访。

We'd love an interview.

双赢，赢得诺贝尔文学奖。

Win win the Nobel Prize in Literature.

我重新观看了《维克梅斯特和谐曲》，这部精彩的《抵抗的忧伤》改编作品，或其中的一部分。

I rewatched Wirkmeister Harmonies, the wonderful Bellator adaptation of The Melancholy of Resistance or a portion of it.

看完之后，太棒了。

Afterward, it's amazing.