一家商店真能成为“第三空间”吗？

大家好，欢迎来到《时尚商业》的复盘节目，每周我们都会与撰写报道的记者一起深入探讨我们最受欢迎的BLF专业故事。我是执行主编Brian Baskin。

Hello, and welcome to the debrief from the business of fashion where each week we delve into our most popular BLF professional stories with the correspondents who created them. I'm executive editor Brian Baskin.

我是高级记者Sheena Butler Young。从听音酒吧到店内咖啡馆，零售商们正在追逐一个大创意：商店能否同时成为人们逗留、会面和归属的场所？社会学家Ray Oldenburg创造的'第三空间'一词描述了上述所有功能，唯独不包括商业。但疫情后，随着社交隔离加剧和客流量下降，品牌仍在尝试这一概念，衡量成功的标准不仅是销售额，还包括停留时间、忠诚度和口碑传播。

And I'm senior correspondent Sheena Butler Young. From listening bars to in store cafes, retailers are chasing a big idea. Can a shop double as a spot to linger, meet and belong? Coined by sociologist Ray Oldenburg, the term third place describes all of the above except for commerce. But post pandemic with social isolation up and footfall down, brands are trying it on anyway, measuring their success not just by sales, but by dwell time, loyalty, and word-of-mouth.

BOF零售编辑Kat Chen一直在报道第三空间浪潮，亲眼见证了哪些做法有效、哪些只是作秀，并提出了核心问题：商店是否真能建立起真正的社区。Kat，欢迎来到复盘播客。

BOF retail editor Kat Chen has been reporting on the third place wave and has seen firsthand what's working, what's performative, and is asking the big question whether stores can ever really build a true community. Kat, welcome to the debrief podcast.

大家好，很高兴来到这里。

Hi, guys. Happy to be here.

那么Kat，当Oldenburg最初构想这个所谓的第三空间时，我想他应该没有预见到这会以唇彩、牛仔服、连衣裙等商品为背景。他最初设想的是什么样的场景呢？

So, Kat, when Oldenburg initially envisioned this so called third place, I don't imagine he was picturing, you know, this being having a backdrop of lip gloss, denim, dresses, and all of those things. What did he initially have in mind?

是的，我想先说明这其实是Ray Oldenburg设想的一个非常被曲解的版本。第三空间有个非常简单的定义：它不是家（第一空间），也不是工作或学校（第二空间），而是人们可以单纯消遣社交的场所。

Yeah. I I do wanna disclaim that this is like a very bastardized version of what Ray Oldenburg was picturing. So a third place has a very simple definition. It is a place that is not the home, the first place, and not work or school the second place. A third place is a social place where people can simply hang out.

所以它可能是本地酒吧、小酒馆，他设想过的可能是理发店、青年活动中心、台球厅、图书馆——这些场所在过去几十年里其实一直在消失。甚至在他1989年末创造这个术语时，很多这类场所就已经开始消失了。

So it could be a local bar, a local tavern. He was imagining maybe a barber shop, it could be a youth center, a pool hall, a library, which are a lot of places that have actually been disappearing in the last couple of decades. Even at the time when he coined this term in the late eighties, 1989, a lot of these places had already been disappearing.

那么，商店现在具体在做些什么来尝试实现这个第三空间的使命，而这些可能是五或十年前没有做的呢？

And what exactly are stores doing now to try to fulfill this mission of a third place that they maybe weren't doing five or ten years ago?

我认为他们正在相当字面地诠释创造人们可以实际逗留的空间。比如设置座位区，并提供食品和饮料。当然，餐饮服务并不是新事物。许多品牌已经做了很长时间。Dover Street Market 在这方面做得很好，已经很久很久了。

I would say taking a pretty literal interpretation of creating spaces where people can physically linger. So seating areas and offering food and beverage. Of course, F and B, you know, is not a new thing. Many, many brands have been doing it for a long time. Dover Street Market has done it well for a long, long time.

但现在有一种新的心态，不是把餐饮服务作为一个目的地，而是作为一种让人们多在店里待一会儿的方式。这是一个非常微妙的事情。我认为当它做得好时，它是在真实地创建一个社区。

But now there's a, you know, it's really a new mindset of not creating food and beverage as a destination, but as a way to get people to sort of simply spend more time in the store. It's a very subtle thing. And I think when it's done well, it's authentically creating a community.

当你提到，你开始推断什么是不成功的，或者为什么这并不总是有效时，让我想到了疫情前某家运动鞋零售商邀请我参加一个体验式店铺开业活动，它本应成为一个社区中心，但我很确定那家店现在已经不存在了。我知道现在需求感觉更紧迫，但那些最初的尝试在哪里出了问题？

When you mentioned, you started to sort of infer what what success doesn't look like or why this doesn't always work. It made me think about a certain, sneaker retailer pre pandemic that invited me to, like, an experiential store opening that was going to be a community hub, and I'm pretty sure that store no longer exists. Now I get that the need feels more urgent, but where were those first iterations going wrong?

我不认为现在它有更多成功的潜力。就像，我认为第三空间作为推动零售商销售的一种方式是一个未经证实的理论。我不知道它是否能在零售业中被成功证明。而且我认为体验式零售也是未经证实的。我们不知道它是否不起作用。

I don't think this has more potential to work now. Like, I think the idea of a third place as a way to drive sales for retailers is an unproven theory. I don't know if it can be successfully proven in retail at all. And I think that experiential retail is also unproven. We don't know if it doesn't work.

我们不知道它是否有效。体验式零售也是另一个非常抽象的想法，对吧？是优质的服务，还是某种新奇的事物使商店成为一个目的地？

We don't know if it does work. And experiential retail is also another one of those very abstract ideas. Right? Is it good service or is it something novel that makes a store a destination?

嗯，Oldenburg 对这个确切的问题有很多话要说，你之前也提到了这一点，即所有这些商店里的食品、饮料以及所有花哨的东西的目标是让你在店里待得更久。我们都知道，如果你在听这个播客，你可能知道，你在店里待的时间越长，你就越有可能买东西，或者告诉你的朋友，他们也会来店里买东西。Oldenburg 基本上说，商业是腐败的。如果目标是花钱而不是社交，那它就不是一个真正的家或工作之外的场所。这基本上就是根本问题所在吗？

Well, Oldenburg had a lot to say about this exact question, and you you alluded to this before, which is that the goal with all, you know, the food and drinks and and all the bells and whistles in these stores is to get you to stay in the store longer. And we all know, if you're listening to this podcast, you probably know, the longer you spend in a store, the more likely you are to buy something, or to tell your friends, and they come to the store and they buy something too. And Oldenburg said, essentially, that commerce was corrupting. It wasn't a true place outside the home or work if the goal is to spend money and not to socialize. Is is that is that basically what the the fundamental issue is here?

奥登伯格对商业规模存在疑问。他认为，独立所有和本地拥有的店铺确实可以成为第三场所，但购物中心不行。因为成为第三场所的一个要素——如果你看看我们BOF工作室为我们制作的精美图表，你会发现第三场所的关键组成部分之一是与陌生人的互动。而当你去购物中心时，你是去和朋友闲逛的，这很好，那算第三场所，而且许多购物中心，我认为按照第三场所的宽松定义，也可以算作第三场所。但你知道，你去那里并不是真的为了和陌生人互动。

Oldenburg had a problem with the scale of commerce. So he believed that an independently owned and a locally owned shop can be a third place in fact, but a mall cannot be a third place. Because one of the tenants of being a third place and if you look at the nifty graphic that our BOF studio whipped up for us, you can see that one of the key components of a third place is interactions with strangers. And when you go to a mall, you go to a mall to either hang out with your friends, which is great, that's a third place and malls, many malls, you know, I would think by a loose definition of third place can be a third place. But you know, you're you're not really going there to to interact with a stranger.

而你知道，你当地的商店或咖啡馆的美好之处在于，随着时间的推移，你会认识咖啡师，与销售助理甚至店主成为朋友或变得友好。而对于这些大型连锁店，你并不真正知道背后是谁在经营。所以我认为这很棘手，因为这不仅仅是商业元素的问题，而是商业规模的问题。但我认为这是一个重要的区别。

And the beautiful thing about, you know, your your sort of local store or your local cafe is that you know the baristas over time you become friends or you become friendly with the sales associates or maybe even the owner of that. And with these big chains, you don't really know who's who's behind the chains. And so I think it's it's tricky because it's not just about the commerce element. It's about the scale of of commerce. But I think that's an important distinction.

所以我理解品牌们正在采纳奥登伯格提出的第三场所概念的一些碎片，并加以自己的诠释。故事中你称之为仪表盘上的那些东西是什么，或者我们称之为仪表盘，但他们实际上说这会为他们带来什么，他们如何衡量？关键绩效指标是什么？是你提到的那个停留时间的东西吗？

So I get that brands are sort of taking bits and pieces of what Oldenburg came up with as this third place and kind of putting their own spin on it. What are some of those things that are on? Think you called it the dashboard in the story, or maybe we're calling dashboard, but what are they actually saying that this is going to do for them, and how are they measuring it? What's the KPI? Is it this thing, the dwell time thing that you mentioned?

在他们版本的第三场所中，他们希望实现什么？

What are they looking to do in their version of a third place?

是的，绝对是停留时间。在我的报道中，有一个统计数据被反复提及，即每增加一分钟，销售可能性就会增加约1.6%之类的。它的来源是一个非常非常古老的研究。所以我没有把它包括在故事中，因为我觉得每个人都在引用这个。所以停留时间会增加销售转化率是有道理的，但量化它，我认为仍然非常非常困难。

Yeah, it's definitely dwell time. In my reporting, there was one statistic that was repeated over and over again is that for every minute increased, there was like a 1.6% increase on sales likelihood or something. The source of it was from a very, very old study. And so I didn't include it in the story because I was like, everybody is citing this. And so it makes sense that dwell time would increase sales conversion, but quantifying it, I think is still very, very difficult.

所以有一些公司正在尝试玩弄这个想法，让停留时间更长。对吧？你在故事中谈到了其中几个。一个是西方靴子和服装品牌。对吧？

So there there are companies that are sort of toying around with this idea of getting the dwell time higher. Right? So you talked about a few of them in your story. One is the, Western boot and clothing brand. Right?

塔科瓦？那么他们在做什么？因为我个人这个周末正在寻找最近的塔科瓦商店。

Takova's? So what are they doing? Because I I personally am looking for the nearest Takova store this weekend.

是的。我们应该一起去Takova's，因为它离我们办公室很近，而且他们提供免费饮品，这其实不是什么新鲜事。任何报道过他们在纽约开店的人都会提到这一点，但我不明白为什么这不是每篇报道的重点，因为他们店里有一个完整的酒吧。实际上，我认为他们所有门店内部都设有酒吧。在这些酒吧里，他们所有的饮品都是免费供应的。

Yes. We should all go to Takova's together because it's so close to our office and they offer free drinks, which is it's not new. There's anyone who reported about their store opening in New York wrote about this, but I don't understand how it's not the lead to every story because they have this full bar inside their store. And actually, have bars, I think, inside of all of their stores. And at these bars, they serve all of their drinks for free.

而且你想喝多少就喝多少，他们不会限制你。

And you can have as many drinks as you want. They're not gonna cut you off.

Kat，你去Soho那家店的时候，喝了多少杯玛格丽特？说实话

And Kat, when you visited the store in Soho, how many margaritas did you have? To be honest with

我在他们开店活动上滴酒未沾，因为我还要赶去另一个活动，但我向他们保证过会带你们去店里验证这个说法。我们要验证这个说法。我当时说，好吧，但你们肯定会限制顾客的吧？对吧？而他们却说，不会。

I did not have a single drink at their store opening because I was headed to another event, but I promised them that I would take you guys to the store and we would test the theory. We would test the theory. And I I was like, okay, but you guys, like, cut customers off. Right? And they were like, no.

我又说，但你们肯定遇到过麻烦事吧？对吧？肯定会有因此引发的问题。他们却说，没有。我们的顾客都非常有礼貌。

And I was like, but you guys have had incidents. Right? Where surely there's, you know, there's trouble with that. And they were like, no. Our customers are very polite.

我接着说，但这肯定对品牌来说是一笔不小的成本吧？对吧？他们则表示，嗯，这就像其他运营成本一样是运营开支。所以，这个策略对他们很有效，而且是他们零售策略的一部分，被称为“极致待客之道”。其理念是，当顾客走进店里，他们不会直接推销说‘哦，您今天想找点什么？’

And I was like, but surely, this is a big cost item for the brand. Right? And they were like, well, it's an operating cost like any other operating cost. And so, this strategy is working for them and it's part of their retail strategy that's called radical hospitality. And it's this idea that when someone enters their store, they're not making this pitch of like, oh, what are you looking for today?

比如问鞋码什么的。而是更像‘您好，怎么样？请进店里看看。’店内的布局是，有一个非常显眼的巨大休息区对顾客开放。其理念就像是邀请顾客进入公司创始人的客厅一样。

What's your shoe size or, you know, whatever. It's more like, hello, how are you? Come inside the store. And the store is set up in a way where it's like there's a huge lounge section that is very visible to the shopper. And the idea is like they're inviting the shopper into the living room of the founder of the company.

他们邀请顾客进来待一会儿，喝杯饮料。然后他们或许会买一双牛仔靴。

And they're inviting shopper into hang out for a while and have a drink. And then they can maybe buy a pair of cowboy boots.

我不确定这就像自助餐那样，如果你让它变得非常丰盛，人们就会像眼睛大肚子小那样，还是说人们实际上能自律、有自控力。这也让我想到丝芙兰，以及美容产品如何融入这种‘自由体验’的讨论中，你可以试用和玩耍，最终往往会购买。但还有，比如我自己的经历，有时候走进丝芙兰，很明显人们希望你买。比如你正在试腮红，立马就有店员过来问，‘你想要什么颜色？’如何避免这种情况？

I can't tell if this is like the buffet where if you just make it so plentiful people's like like their eyes or like your stomach is smaller than your eyes kind of thing, or if this is actually like, people just behave themselves and can have self control. It also makes me think about Sephora and like where beauty might fit into this conversation of just making it a free for all, like you can test and play and it seems to work out that they eventually buy. But there's also, like, I'll say my own experience with, like, sometimes going into a Sephora, it's like, it's very clear people want you to buy. Like, you're playing around with the blush and you're immediately a cop like, do you what color do you want? How do you avoid that part of it?

因为毕竟你得做成销售。是培训你的销售助理吗？比如，如何在这里不过度偏向任何一方？

Like, because you do have to make a sale. Is it training your sales associate? Like, how do you not go too far in any direction here?

我确实认为有一种放手不管的元素。对吧？比如，我肯定滥用过丝芙兰的免费样品政策，去丝芙兰只是为了重新化妆，当我做自己的事时，我会说销售助理基本上就像，‘哦，她在做自己的事。她在用样品重新化妆。’你知道，人们都避开我。

I do think that there's a certain hands off element. Right? Like, the times where I've definitely abused Sephora's policy of free samples and gone to Sephora just to redo my makeup, like, when I'm doing my thing, I would say the sales associates are pretty much like, oh, she's doing her thing. She's using the samples to redo her makeup. You know, people have stayed away from me.

所以我想指出，那些最擅长成为第三场所的零售商并不是你想到的那些。实际上不是拉夫·劳伦。不是普拉达咖啡馆。不是蒂芙尼和蓝盒咖啡馆。在我看来，那些并不是最好的第三场所零售商。

And so I do wanna make the point that like, the retailers that are best at being third places are not the ones that you think of. It's actually not Ralph Lauren. It's not Prada Cafe. It's not Tiffany and Blue Box Cafe. Like, those are not the retailers that are the best third places in my opinion.

我认为是丝芙兰。我觉得Toucouvas说得有道理。我为我的报道采访了一位房地产经纪人，他举了苹果店的例子。因为苹果有一个惊人的政策，我在报道中测试过，你可以直接走进苹果店说，‘嘿，需要给我的手机充电。’你可以直接走进去，他们会说，‘嘿，在这里充电吧。’

I think it is Sephora. Like, I think Toucouvas is onto something. I talked to a real estate broker for my story, and he brought up the example of an Apple store. Because you can Apple has this amazing policy, which I tested out in my reporting where you can just walk into an Apple store and be like, hey, need to charge my phone. And you can just walk right in and they'll be like, hey, charge your phone here.

然后你真的可以站在那里二十分钟给手机充电。你可以进去问，‘我能用你们的洗手间吗？’他们就会让你用。因为他们意识到，当你在他们的生态系统中拥有这种非常积极的体验时，你会对品牌产生非常积极的感觉。

And then you can just literally stand there for twenty minutes and charge your phone. And you can go in and be like, can I use your bathroom? And they just let you do that. Because they realize that when you have this really positive experience in their ecosystem, that you will feel very positively about the brand.

说得太对了。我的意思是，当我读到你的故事里那段时，我的第一反应是，哦天哪。这简直是把第三空间的门槛设得太低了。我在这里能给手机充电。然后我就想，我在公共空间里真正看重的是什么呢？

That's so right. I mean, my first reaction when I when I read that in your story was, oh, brother. Like, that is really setting the bar for a third place pretty low. I can charge my phone here. And then I thought, what do I actually appreciate in public spaces?

我喜欢在长途散步时公园里有舒适的长椅。就像苹果公司确实在为穿过商场或户外购物中心的人们提供这种服务。而且，你知道，当一个品牌这样做时，你确实会对它产生好感，这可能超过了有些人永远不会买东西，只是利用免费电力的事实。

I like that there's a nice comfy bench when I'm out on a long walk and there's a park. And, like, Apple is really providing that service to people walking through a mall or or through an outdoor shopping center. And and, you know, you do have a positive feeling about a brand when they do something like that, and that probably outweighs the fact that there's some people in there who are never gonna buy anything, and they're just taking advantage of their free electricity.

完全同意。还有一点。我认为，如果你是一家拥有很多门店但经营困难的连锁店，我不会点名是谁，一个聪明的策略可能是开始提供免费的公共卫生间。这是一种公共服务，也是一种让人们开始对你的品牌产生非常积极联想的方式。

Totally. Which is another thing. Like, I think that if you're a struggling chain with a lot of stores, I'm not gonna say who, I think a clever strategy might be you should start offering free public bathrooms. Like, that is a public service, and that is a way to really start allowing people to have a very positive association with your brand.

这正是星巴克刚刚做的。我的意思是，他们以前以那些免费卫生间闻名。他们取消了。销售额在下降。新CEO提出的解决方案之一就是把那些免费卫生间恢复。

And that's exactly what Starbucks just did. I mean, they famously had those free bathrooms. They took them away. Sales are falling. One of the solutions the new CEO have is give those free bathrooms back.

我们会让人们重新回到店里。

We'll get people back in the store.

没错。免费卫生间，免费续杯，他们明确使用'第三空间'这个词来描述重新增加这些便利设施。所以再次说明，这不仅仅是关于食品和饮料。我认为很多人错误地认为社区和体验就是食品和饮料，其实不是。或者有时候，即使食品和饮料一般也没关系。

Exactly. Free bathrooms, free refills, and they explicitly use the term third place to describe adding these amenities back. So again, it's not about food and beverage. I think a lot of people make the mistake of, you know, thinking community and experience is about food and beverage, and it's not. It's or sometimes maybe it's like you can have even mediocre food and beverage and that's okay.

我的意思是，在提供第三空间的概念中，食品和饮料实际上是低投入的食品和饮料。是便宜的食品和饮料。是低门槛的。所以一个咖啡馆提供，比如说，2美元的咖啡，

I mean, the concept of food and beverage in providing a third place is actually it's it's low commitment food and beverage. It's cheap food and beverage. It's low barrier to to entry. So a cafe where you're serving, you know, $2 coffees,

希望不是，你知道，8美元一杯的高档抹茶咖啡或者，

hopefully not, you know, $8 fancy matcha coffees or,

你是知道的，甜甜圈和，你知道，便宜的零食，这样你就能欢迎每个人进入这个空间。有很多关于纽约涌现的私人会员俱乐部的思考文章，以及这与对第三空间的渴望是如何联系起来的。而私人会员俱乐部不是第三空间。它们是第三空间的对立面。

you're you know, donuts and, you know, cheap snacks so that you're welcoming everybody into the space. There's been a lot of think pieces about private membership clubs popping up in New York and how this is tied to this desire for third places. And private member clubs are not third places. They are the antithesis of third places.

每年支付2万美元的会费，你就能拥有一个建立社区的好地方。广告之后我们将继续带来更多《汇报》的内容。我想谈谈你的消息来源在故事中提到的一个说法，就是‘被品牌化至死’这个术语。这是什么意思？零售商对第三空间的迭代如何避免让我们‘被品牌化至死’？

For $20,000 a year in fees, you can have a nice place to build a community. We'll be back with more of The Debrief right after this. I wanna talk about something that one of your sources said in the story, which is this term of being branded to death. What does that mean? And how does retailers iteration of third place avoid being branding us to death?

是的。我很喜欢这句话。我认为它是我们的点睛之笔。而且，这是一位设计师，一家室内设计公司说的。我不认为他以前听说过第三空间，但他立刻就理解了，我很喜欢这一点，因为这又回到了真实性的理念，理解了社区建设是真实的，而不是一次品牌宣传活动。

Yeah. I love this quote. I think it's our kicker. And, this is with a designer, an interior design firm. I don't think he had even heard of third places before, but he immediately understood it, which I loved because this goes back to this idea of authenticity and understanding that community building is something that is authentic and is not a branding exercise.

他谈论的是，比如你去某个品牌的咖啡馆，你会得到这些，你知道，印着logo的饼干，好像一切都完美地打上了品牌。我想，这其中确实有某种非常令人满意的东西。但归根结底，这与你身临其境的社交体验无关。它可能关乎给它拍张照片。你知道，而且它可能关乎能够消费这个奢侈品牌，这类似于能够买得起他们3000美元手袋的第一步。

And what he was talking about was like you go to some kind of brands cafe and you're getting these like, you know, cookies with the logo on them and like everything is immaculately branded. And there is something, I guess, very satisfying about it. But at the end of the day, it's not about the social experience of being there. It's about maybe taking a photo of it. You know, and and it's maybe about being able to consume this luxury brand that's akin to being the first step of being able to afford their $3,000 handbag.

你知道，这又回到了商业。它不是社区。它是商业，而且它与奥尔登堡所意指的完全相反。

You know, again, it goes back to commerce. It's it's not community. It's it's commerce and and it's very much the opposite of what Oldenburg meant.

是的。坦白说吧，我的意思是，在我编辑你的故事、讨论这个故事的全部过程中，甚至现在我们在谈论它的时候，这他妈的真让人沮丧。就像，我们竟然要在一个卖靴子或iPhone的商店里寻找社区。我的意思是，为什么不去酒吧或咖啡店呢？我的意思是，事实上我们感觉像是

Yeah. Just to lay my cards on the table here, I mean, at the whole time I was editing your story and talking about this story, and even right now when we're talking about it, it's just so fucking depressing. Like, the idea that we're gonna find community in a store that sells boots or iPhones. I mean, why not just go to a bar or a coffee shop? Mean, fact that we feel like are

在塔科马市免费。这就是原因。

free at Tacomas. That's why.

我的意思是

I mean

布莱恩，我觉得你太愤世嫉俗了。我过得还行。我吗？我同意。你还是太愤世嫉俗了，因为我也持怀疑态度。

Brian, I think you're being too cynical. I do okay. Me? I yes. You're you're still being too cynical because I too am skeptical.

但我确实认为，像我家附近的社区商店可以成为第三空间。我可以走进去，认识店主，认识周五在那里工作的女士，因为我通常那天去店里。我可以多待十分钟和那个人聊天。也许有一天他们会在店里开个小咖啡馆。我觉得它可以成为第三空间。

But I do think that a local community store, like there are stores in my neighborhood that can be a third place. Where I can go in, I recognize the owner, I recognize the woman who worked there on Fridays because that's the day that I usually go into the store. I can stay there for an extra ten minutes talking to that person. Maybe one day they'll they'll put a little cafe in that store. And I think it could be a third place.

实际上，我认为零售业正朝着这个方向发展，就像我们之前讨论过的多品牌策略。对吧？现在百货商店衰落，所有这些地方性的精品店正在抢占份额。我的意思是，它们没有抢占全部份额，规模也小得多。但我们确实看到这些小规模独立商家崛起的趋势。

And and actually, I I think that retail is moving in that direction because like think about the pieces that we've done on multi brand. Right? Now that department stores are faltering, all these local, all these regional boutiques are taking share. I mean, they're not taking all of the share and it's, you know, it's much smaller scale. But we are seeing this trend where these smaller independent players are emerging.

所以我确实认为零售商们在这方面有所发现。

And so I do think that retailers are onto something here.

是的。他们发现了一个向人们营销的新空间，我认为这才是问题的核心。他们这样做不是出于慷慨或看到社区需求，恰恰相反。他们看到社区需求后意识到可以从中获利。我认为这就是为什么奥尔登堡对商店作为第三空间的想法如此怀疑，因为归根结底动机不纯，这在某种程度上破坏了一切。

Yeah. They're onto the fact they have a new space to market to people, and I think that's what is at the heart of this. They're not doing this out of generosity or because they see there's a need for community, it's the reverse. They see there's a need for community and they realize they can capitalize on it. And I think in the end, that's why Oldenburg was so skeptical of the idea of stores as third places, because ultimately the motives aren't pure and that on some level ruins everything.

我是说，那是星巴克，但那不是，你知道的，那不是本地店主。

I mean, that's Starbucks, but that's not the, you know, that's not the local shop owner.

这次结束后，我们的简报将不再有任何赞助商。

We will have no no sponsors moving forward for the debrief after we're done with this one.

我不知道我们一开始有没有赞助商。

I don't know if we had any to begin with.

所以我想说，我认为存在一个中间立场，对吧？我觉得尽管雷·奥尔登堡很出色，我们给予了他很多赞誉。我认为存在一个中间地带。我们刚才描述的关于让这件事变得虚伪或被商店玷污的一切，都可以应用到音乐会，应用到许多让我们感到有社区感、需要花钱或以赚钱为最终目标的事情上。我认为我的中间立场是，如果你是时尚、美妆或其他领域的零售商，既想赚钱又想让你的店铺成为社区，我认为这两者可以并行不悖。

So I just wanna say, I think there's a middle ground, right? I think that we're giving as as brilliant as Ray Oldenburg was, I think we're giving him a lot of credit. I think there is a middle ground. Everything we just described about making this disingenuous or tainted by stores could be applied to concerts, could be applied to a lot of things that make us feel communal, cost money or have as an end goal money. I think my middle ground is like, if you're a retailer in fashion and beauty and elsewhere, and you wanna also make money and make your store a community, I think they can go hand in hand.

我认为问题在于把它包装成慈善。如果你说你在同时做这两件事，我可以在后面喝到我的玛格丽特或古典鸡尾酒，同时买到我的靴子，我认为这样对你更有利。

I think packaging it up as philanthropy is the problem. If you say you're doing both and I can come and get my margarita or old fashioned at the back and get my boots at the same time, I think you're all the more better for it.

顺便说一下，这正在较小的本地范围内发生。我的意思是，我会敦促我们的听众去看看公共空间项目，我为我的第三场所历史采访了其执行主任。他们是一个非常酷的非营利组织，与社区、本地商户，甚至更大的开发商合作，为当地社区创造公共空间。他们有关于如何创建公共空间的指南。他们想游说公共规划师、城市规划师创造更多的公共空间。而这正是他们在做的。

By the way, this is happening on the smaller local scale. I mean, I would urge our listeners to check out the Project for Public Spaces, the executive director of which I spoke to for my third place history. They're a very cool nonprofit organization that works with communities, local merchants, I think even bigger developers to create public spaces for local communities. They have guidebooks on how to create public spaces. They want to lobby public planners, city planners to create more public And that's exactly what they're doing.

他们正在创造第三场所。他们正在帮助私人利益相关者创建更多的社区中心，你知道吗？所以这项工作正在进行中。所以我们不能太愤世嫉俗，布莱恩，因为这很重要。而且，你知道，那些邪恶的公司，比如，你知道，它们也可以为这些事情投入资源。

They're creating third places. They're helping private stakeholders to create more community hubs, you know? And so this work is happening. And so we can't be too cynical, Brian, because it's important. And and, you know, the evil corporations, like, the you know, they can also put resources toward this stuff.

但我觉得我们这里在谈论两个不同的事情。我同意你们两位的观点，通过引入一些第三空间元素，商店确实可以变得更友好、更受欢迎，但我们不应该把这与真正填补消失的第三空间留下的空白混为一谈。这就是我的观点。我认为这些商店提供这些东西很棒，尤其是Tacovus的免费饮品，我超级超级喜欢这个想法。

But I think we're talking about two different things here. I agree with both of you that a store can become a nicer, more welcoming store by introducing some of these third place elements, but we shouldn't confuse that with actually filling the void left by disappearing third places. That's my only point. I think it's lovely that these stores offer these things, especially the free drinks at Tacovus. I'm a huge huge fan of that idea.

但我只是不喜欢把这两者结合起来的概念。

But I just I don't like the idea of combining the two.

说得有道理。那么Brian，结束后我们在理发店或图书馆见吧。说到这里，我们切换到闪电回合吧。好吗？我觉得我们都应该回答这个问题。

Fair enough. So I will meet you at the barbershop or library after this, Brian. With that, let's switch to our lightning round. Okay? So I think all of us should take this question.

什么是最被过度使用的第三空间道具？我可以先说。我觉得是咖啡机这种东西。我知道这不算道具因为你真的可以喝咖啡，但我就是觉得这太容易了，像是我喜欢带着自己的咖啡走进来。

What is the most overdone third place prop? I can go first. I think it is the the coffee machine thing. Like, I know that's not a prop because you can actually have coffee, but I just think it's such it's so low low hanging fruit. Like, I like to walk in with my coffee.

哦，我同意。这本来也是我想说的。咖啡，你在哪里都能找到它。为什么我非要在买鞋的商店里买咖啡呢？

Oh, I agree. That was that was gonna be mine. I mean, coffee, where do you find it? Everywhere. Like, why do I need to get it at the store where I'm buying my my shoes?

我要说男友休息区，只是为了与众不同。

I'm gonna say boyfriend lounges just to be different.

什么是男友休息区？

What is a boyfriend lounges?

不知道

Don't know

你知道，就是给男朋友和丈夫们准备的沙发？

if You know, like the couches for the boyfriends and the husbands?

哦。哦，天哪。

Oh. Oh, god.

是啊。是啊。那个，真是骨子里的恐同。

Yeah. Yeah. Deep deeply homophobic, that one.

它们太...就是太有性别刻板印象了。同意。我同意这个观点。

They're so Like, it's so so gendered. Agree. I agree with that one.

好的。下一个。许多门店团队明天就可以采用的待客之道。

Alright. Next up. The one hospitality queue many store teams could adopt tomorrow.

我在丝芙兰大部分时候体验都很好。但时装周期间我去过几次，比如在秀场间隙，想快速补个妆。我发现我去的那家店的销售人员过于急切地问我需要什么，而我只是在明显补妆。以至于我因为感到压力买了两个并不真正需要的东西。所以我认为，总的来说，商店普遍缺失的是对销售助理的培训，让他们能真正以有意义的方式与顾客互动，向他们推销，但又不会让他们感觉是在被推销。

I have great experiences in Sephora most of the time. But I did go in a couple times during fashion week, like in between shows, like to do a quick touch up. And I found that the salespeople at the location that I went to were overly anxious about asking me what I was looking for when I was just clearly doing a touch up. So much so that I bought two things I didn't really need because I felt pressured. So I think what is missing from stores in general, I think is the the training of sales associates to actually, engage in your with your customers in a meaningful way, sell to them without making it feel like they're being sold to.

我会选择保持店面整洁有序，并在设计上营造出温馨感。我仍然觉得这相当罕见。虽然比以前好多了，但我要说，现在我去商场，大多数商店，甚至那些你认为在挣扎、有点低端的连锁店，它们都懂得如何让店面看起来不那么糟糕。但要让它成为一个你想花时间待的地方，还需要努力，这又是整个概念的关键部分。

I'll go with keeping a store neat and tidy and welcoming in a design sense. I I still think that's pretty rare. It's less rare than it used to be. Will say, I go to the mall now and, like, most stores, even even chains you think of as struggling and, you know, kinda low end, like, they kinda know how to make a store feel like it's not a total disaster. But there's work to be done to make it feel like a place you want to spend time, which again is a key part of this whole concept.

哦，太多了。也许甚至和你相反，Sheena。就像，对我友好一点。别忽视我。也许稍微预判一下我的需求。

Oh, there's so many. Like, maybe even the opposite of you, Sheena. Just like, be nice to me. Don't ignore me. Maybe anticipate my needs a little bit.

我给你举个正面的例子。前几天我提着个大袋子去Pronton，有人主动走过来问我，是否需要帮我保管，给我一个寄存牌，稍后再取？我当时就想，天啊，这太棒了。

I'll give you a positive example of this. I went to Pronton the other day holding a big bag. Someone actually came up to me and was like, do you want me to take that and give you a coat check tag and you can pick it up later? And I was like, oh my goodness. Like, that was awesome.

你知道吗？但更多这样的，预判需求。那会很棒。这几乎是所有零售商都做得不好的地方。

You know? But just more of that, like, anticipating need. That would be great. Like, that's something that pretty much every retailer is failing at.

解放你的双手，这样你就能买更多东西。

Free up your hands so you can buy more stuff.

是的。是的。没错。完全正确。

Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly.

我奇怪地发现优衣库在这方面做得很好。你知道，他们会在你有一堆东西时主动提供袋子。他们帮你结账，但不会太咄咄逼人。我认为这在每个价位都可以做到。

I I weirdly found Uniqlo is very good at that. You know, they they do the thing where if you have a bunch of stuff, they'll offer you a bag. They help you check out, but they're not too pushy about it. Like, I I think it can be done at every price point.

哦，是的。优衣库真的很棒。哦，还有一点是一致性。比如，我发现纽约的很多服务质量非常不稳定，我不明白为什么会这样。

Oh, yeah. Uniqlo is Uniqlo is really great. Oh, and another thing is consistency. Like, I find that in New York, a lot of service can be really inconsistent, and I don't understand how that happens.

然后最后一点是，一个品牌或品类不应该尝试打造第三空间，以及为什么可能会适得其反。我想不出太多例子。我差点想到像大卖场这样的地方，但后来我说，实际上，那可能是一个可以做到的地方。也许不行。如果我们认为第三空间应该是慈善或公益性质的，也许大卖场确实不应该这么做。

And then the last one is one brand or category that should not attempt a third place and why it might backfire. I can't think of very many. I almost thought about like a big box store, but then I said, actually, that's probably a place that could do it. Maybe not. If if you if we're thinking about third places being, philanthropic or charitable, maybe maybe a big box shouldn't do it, actually.

是的。不过我想说，我小时候的第三空间可能是百思买，因为你可以在那里玩电子游戏。我的意思是，这就是我们正在讨论的例子，对吧？

Yeah. Was gonna say, though, my third place, if I had think about when I was a kid, was probably Best Buy because you could play their video games. I mean, that's that's an example of what we're talking about. Right?

我会说，像那些即进即出的地方。非常实用性的。比如，如果我只是去买袜子和内衣，你知道，我不想逗留。

I would say, like, in and out places. Like, super, like, utilitarian. Like, if I'm picking up socks and underwear, you know, I don't wanna dwell.

CVS永远不会成为第三空间吗？

Is is CVS never gonna be a third place?

是的。像药店那样的。像…是的，像药房。比如，我只是去买药。

Yeah. Like a like a pharmaceutical. Like a like yeah. Like a pharmacy. Like, I'm paying out meds.

我不会

I don't

想啊，是的。

wanna Yeah.

哇，我可以同时拿到我的食物和一杯咖啡。

Wow. I could get my food shot and a cup of coffee at the same time.

还有一杯饮料。

And a drink.

我不

I don't

知道是否没有反应。

know if there's no reaction.

听起来像雪碧。为什么不喝一杯呢？两种饮品。差点错过了那个。说到这里，这是一次引人入胜的讨论。

Sounds like Sprite. Why not get a drink? Two kinds of shots. Lost almost missed that one. On that note, this was a fascinating discussion.

我喜欢我们在这里深入探讨。我不知道我们是否达成了共识。我不确定我是否能被这个概念说服，但我很感激这份努力。

I like that we went deep here. I don't know that we ever came to an agreement. I don't know if I could ever be sold on this concept, but I appreciate the effort.

是的。我还没来得及发表我的长篇大论，你知道，关于现在每个人都害怕陌生人的话题，但也许也许下次吧。

Yeah. I never got to go on my diatribe about, you know, how everyone's afraid of strangers these days, but maybe maybe another time.

在下期《汇报》节目中，我们将深入探讨凯特存在主义孤独的根源，而布莱恩则在新冠疫情中醉酒出丑。

On the next episode of the debrief, we delve into the roots of Kat's existential loneliness, and Brian makes a drunken fool of himself to COVID.

我很期待。

I look forward to it.

非常感谢凯特加入我们。

Thank you so much, Kat, for joining us.

谢谢。

Thank you.

请务必查看凯特的文章《商店能否成为第三空间》，发布于businessoffashion.com。这些以及其他商店这些，你去你想要的

Please be sure to check out Kat's article, can a store ever be a third place at businessoffashion.com. These and other stores these You go you wanna

非常渴望能有一个第三空间。

be at a third place so bad.

这些及其他这些及其他故事仅限BOF专业订阅用户阅读，您可以在节目笔记中找到链接。您刚才收听的是由Olivia Davies和Eric Bria制作编辑的The Debrief节目。我是Brian Baskin。

These and other these and other stories are available to BOF Professional subscribers only, and you can find the links in the episode notes. You've been listening to The Debrief, produced and edited by Olivia Davies and Eric Bria. I'm Brian Baskin.

我是Sheena Butler Young。我们下周将带来新一期节目。非常感谢您的收听，请务必在您收听播客的平台关注我们。

And I'm Sheena Butler Young. We'll be back next week with a new episode. Thanks so much for joining us, be sure to follow us wherever you get your podcasts.