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谎言的代价是什么？
What is the cost of lies?
问题不在于我们会把谎言误认为真相。
It's not that we'll mistake them for the truth.
真正的危险在于，如果我们听了太多谎言，就再也认不清事实了。
The real danger is that if we hear enough lies, then we no longer recognize the truth at all.
那我们该怎么办？
What can we do then?
嗨。
Hi.
我是彼得·萨加尔。
This Peter Sagal.
我是克雷格·梅森。
And I'm Craig Maison.
我正坐着
And I'm sitting
和克雷格一起录制《切尔诺贝利》播客的第一集，这是一档关于HBO迷你剧《切尔诺贝利》的播客节目，该剧由克雷格·梅森编剧并创作。
with Craig to record the first episode of the Chernobyl podcast, a podcast about the HBO miniseries Chernobyl, which was written and created by Craig Maison.
我们的目的是与克雷格探讨这部剧的创作起源、他为何要创作它、制作的经历，以及这部纪实剧——你称它为纪实剧吗？——与真实历史的贴近程度。
The intent here is to talk with Craig about where the show came from, why he created it, the experience of making it, and how closely the docudrama would you call it a docudrama?
我想是的。
I guess so.
一段历史的戏剧化重述。
A dramatic retelling of history.
没错。
Right.
它与真实历史的契合度有多高，在哪些地方存在差异及原因，以及最终为何选择在这个时间和地点制作这部剧。
How closely it tracks real history, where it differs and why, and ultimately, why it was made at this time and place.
是的。
Yeah.
在众多值得做这件事的美好理由中，对我来说从一开始最重要的就是有机会澄清记录——我们哪些部分严格遵循历史，哪些部分略有偏离，以及哪些部分因压缩或改编而变动（很大程度上因为这部剧本质上是在探讨谎言的代价），对吧。
And of those many wonderful reasons to do this, the one that was most important to me from the jump was a chance to set the record straight about what we do that is very accurate to history, what we do that is a little bit sideways to it, and what we do to compress or change, in no small part because the show is essentially about the cost of lies Right.
叙事的危险性。
The danger of narrative.
而且我不希望我们，我想，错过任何可以保持透明的机会。
And I didn't want us to, I guess, miss a chance for transparency if we had one.
所以我其实从未听说过这种针对历史戏剧化重述的讨论。
So I've never actually heard this kind of thing before in relation to dramatic retellings of history.
所以我很好奇想看看效果如何，人们是会感到震惊还是受到启发。
So I'm kind of curious to see how it all works, if people are horrified by this or enlightened.
我不认为他们肯定会感到震惊。
Don't I think they'll definitely be horrified.
作为刚看完这部迷你剧的人，我认为其他反应取决于观众自己。
Speaking as someone who just recently saw the miniseries, what else happens, I think, is up to them.
本期切尔诺贝利播客讨论的是迷你剧第一集《01/2345》，这个标题当然是指切尔诺贝利爆炸发生时时钟显示的时间。
This episode of the Chernobyl podcast concerns episode one of the Chernobyl miniseries titled 01/2345, which, of course, was the reading in the clock when the explosion at Chernobyl happened.
那么我们就从开头开始吧。
Let's start then with the beginning.
我猜1986年这一切发生时你大概20岁左右，或许更年轻些？
You were, I'm guessing, around '20 or so in 1986 when this all happened, maybe a little younger?
我当时更小。
I was younger.
对。
Yeah.
我15岁。
I was 15.
15岁。
15.
好的。
Okay.
当时15岁。
Was 15 years old.
我记得这件事。
I remember it.
我对这件事的记忆不像三个月前发生的挑战者号灾难那么鲜明。
I I don't remember it quite as starkly as I remember the incident that occurred about three months earlier, which was the the Challenger disaster.
对。
Right.
但我确实记得这件事发生过。
But I definitely remember that it happened.
我记得当时全世界似乎都很关注。
I remember that the entire world seemed concerned.
这不仅仅是局部事件。
It wasn't simply a local thing.
除此之外，它很快就演变成一个非常简单的概念。
And beyond that, it sort of devolved fairly quickly into a very simple notion.
切尔诺贝利是个核电站，然后它爆炸了。
Chernobyl was a nuclear power plant, and it blew up.
就是这样。
That's it.
对。
Right.
我当时年纪稍大些，还记得些什么？
I was a little older then, and what do I remember?
我记得切尔诺贝利爆炸了。
I remember that Chernobyl blew up.
情况很糟，但最终还好，而且
It was bad, but it ended up being okay, and
苏联人对此撒了谎。
the Soviets lied about it.
完全正确。
That's exactly right.
有点遗憾的是，从中得出的主要教训是苏联人撒谎，以及苏联建立的制度导致了这一切——这些虽然都是事实，也是我们讲述的故事中很大一部分。
And it's a bit of a shame that so much of the takeaway from that is that the Soviets lied and the Soviets created this system that would have led to that, all of which is true and all of which is a large part -PETER: of the story that we tell.
因为这是很重要的一部分。
Because it's an important part.
我们这边新闻没有报道的是，正如我常说的，这种情况只会发生在苏联。
What we did not get on our side of the news was how, I like to say, only This could have only happened in the Soviet Union.
只有苏联才能解决这个问题。
Only the Soviet Union could have solved this problem.
苏联民众为解决问题所做出的牺牲和努力堪称非凡。
What the Soviet citizenry did to sacrifice and solve was nothing short of remarkable.
而我们西方人，我认为当时完全不了解这场灾难的多层次性，也不明白在许多方面，爆炸实际上只是一系列越来越难以置信事件的开端。
And we, in the West, I don't think had any sense of how multilayered this disaster was, and how, in many ways, explosion was really just the beginning of a series of events that are increasingly hard to believe.
嗯，确实如此。
Well, yes.
提前剧透一下，这期播客很多内容都会是我对克雷格说'真的吗？'
A lot of this podcast, just as a spoiler alert, is going to be me saying to Craig, Really?
然后他会回答'是的'。
And he'll say, Yes.
-而且实际情况可能更离奇。
-And it was even weirder, presumably.
在很多情况下。
In a number of cases.
但让我们从这里开始。
But let's start here.
这就是我们所了解的切尔诺贝利事件。
So this is what we knew about Chernobyl.
也是你所知道的。
It's what you know.
它发生在你的童年时期。
It happened in your childhood.
它发生在我年轻的时候。
It happened in my young adulthood.
我们都记得这件事。
We remember this.
它确实发生了。
It happened.
它消失了。
It went away.
然后几年后苏联解体，我们就把这事给忘了。
Then the Soviet Union fell a few years later, and we just forgot about it.
如果在我看这部纪录片之前问我关于切尔诺贝利知道些什么，我大概会说，是啊。
If you would ask me before I started watching this series, what I knew about Chernobyl, I'd say, yeah.
好吧。
Okay.
确实发生过。
That happened.
而且我知道那里盖了个巨大的混凝土石棺，没人能靠近。
And I know that there's a big concrete sarcophagus over it, and nobody can go near it.
我可能还会觉得有点酷，因为周边居民都撤离了，所以那里反而出现了某种奇特的生态复兴，
And it's kind of cool, I might have said, because people have been removed from the area around it, so there's been this weird kind of renaissance of
大自然，-克雷格：
nature, -CRAIG:
这还挺酷的。
which is kind of nifty.
我还看过一些影片，比如鹿群跳跃的镜头
And I've seen, you know, film of, like, deer leaping
没错。
Right.
感觉挺不错的。
It's kind of nice.
所以在了解这些之前，我可能会说：那是三十年前发生的问题，早就结束了。现在我们有这座很酷的废弃城市，反而挺有意思的。
So I would've before this began, I would've said, That was a problem that happened thirty years ago, it's all over, and there's really no problem when we kind of have this cool, abandoned city, -which is fun.
——彼得：是啊。
-PETER: Yeah.
假设这是你开始研究这个项目之前的认知，
Assuming that that's where you were before you started your exploration of the project,
是什么促使你开始这项研究的？
what started you on this exploration?
我知道切尔诺贝利发生了爆炸，但不知道原因。
I knew that Chernobyl exploded, but I didn't know why.
这让我觉得非常奇怪，因为如果你问人们泰坦尼克号发生了什么？
And it struck me as such an odd lapse, because if you say to people, what happened to the Titanic?
他们会告诉你它沉没了。
They'll tell you it sank.
如果你问怎么沉的？
And if you say, how?
他们会回答：冰山。
They'll tell you, iceberg.
人人都知道它撞上了冰山。
Everybody knows it hit an iceberg.
但似乎没人能随口说出切尔诺贝利爆炸的原因和过程。
Nobody seemed to know offhand why and how Chernobyl blew up.
于是我就开始查阅资料。
So I just began to read.
你知道，就是那种美好的居家夜晚，你开始沉迷网络直到昏昏欲睡。
You know, one of those lovely evenings at home where you just start Internet ing yourself into a coma.
我开始阅读，有两件事立刻引起了我的注意。
And I started reading, and two things jumped out.
这两件事都在第一集中显现，其中一件立刻变得显而易见。
And both of those things emerge, in episode one, one of which emerges immediately.
第一件事是爆炸当晚，他们正在运行一项安全测试。
The first thing is that the night of the explosion, they were running a safety test.
这种事实会让任何作家停下来感叹：哦，好吧。
That's the kind of fact that any writer will stop and say, oh, okay.
这以一种最令人不安的方式展现了深刻的讽刺。
That is deeply ironic in in the most disturbing of ways.
为什么？
Why?
因为如果你在进行安全测试，而测试结果却是可能发生的最危险事故，你就会开始思考意图与结果之间究竟存在着怎样的鸿沟。
Well, if you're running a safety test and the result of the safety test is the least safe thing that could have ever possibly happened, you start to wonder what gap between intention and results existed here.
这怎么可能呢？
How how is that even possible?
我能理解——彼得：
I can understand -PETER:
你知道，每部潜艇电影里都有那个极限下潜深度的情节
if you're You know, in every Submarine movie, there's the whole crush depth
对。
Right.
明白吗？
You know?
关键就是要让这东西下潜，看它能承受多少。
The whole point is to take this thing down and see how much it can take.
好吧。
All right.
如果在那场景中它坍塌了，我能理解。
Well, if it collapses in that scene, I get it.
但如果你只是想看看，比如你开车出去兜风，来到一段不是测试加速而是刹车距离的路段，这怎么会让车爆炸呢？
But if you're trying to just see Like, if you're taking a car out for a spin and you've gotten to this section where it's not acceleration, it's braking distance, how does that make the car explode?
那里到底发生了什么？
What What is going on there?
所以我感到非常震惊。
So I found that shocking.
第二个让我震惊的事实是，那个在多方面负责清理工作、我称之为对抗原子爆炸后遗症的全面战争的人，是一位名叫瓦列里·列加索夫的学者。
And the second fact that grabbed me was that the man that was, in many respects, put in charge of the cleanup and the general I I call it a war against the Atom post explosion was an academician named Valery Legasov.
而瓦列里·列加索夫在事故两周年当天自杀了——彼得：
And Valery Legasov commits suicide -PETER: two
事故发生的
years to the day after the
没错。
Right.
——彼得：这当然立刻让我想知道，为什么？
-PETER: And that, of course, immediately gets me wondering, why?
所以，当你
So, when you
向HBO和Sky推销这个创意时，你是如何把它包装成人们会想要甚至需要观看的内容的？
were pitching this idea to HBO and Sky, how were you presenting it as something that people would want to and even need to watch?
我喜欢这样思考：它对每个人的相关性是什么。
The way I like to think of it is what is the relevance to everyone.
对。
Right.
我的意思是，归根结底我们可以讲述任何特定故事，但必须要有某种普世相关性，否则它就只是关于事件本身的故事——这种情况下我称之为家庭作业。
I mean, ultimately, we can tell any particular story, but there needs to be some sort of universal relevance, Or it just becomes a story in and of itself about the event, which, at that point, I refer to those things as homework.
——彼得：没错。
-PETER: Right.
我对给人们布置家庭作业没兴趣。
I'm not interested in making homework for people.
我之所以想写切尔诺贝利的故事，部分原因是它填补了我们都知道却又并不真正了解的这个重大事件的空白。
The reason that I was compelled to write about Chernobyl was, I mean, in part because it was filling in these large gaps of a story that we all knew and yet didn't know.
但最主要的原因是，这是一个关于谎言代价的故事。
But primarily, it's because it is a story about the cost of lies.
这是整部剧的第一句台词，也是随着观众观看这些剧集时我们将持续探讨的主题——当人们选择撒谎，当人们选择相信谎言，当所有人都参与进这种消极的共谋来推崇谎言而非真相时，我们或许能侥幸很久，但真相根本不在乎。
This is the first line of the whole show, and this is the theme that we are going to continue with as people watch these episodes, that when people choose to lie, and when people choose to believe the lie, and when everyone engages in a very kind of passive conspiracy to promote the lie over the truth, we can get away with it for a very long time, but the truth just doesn't care.
没错。
Right.
它最终会找上你。
And it will get you in the end.
而最终受苦的并非那些撒谎的人。
And the people that suffer ultimately are not the people that are telling the lie.
没错。
Right.
而是其他所有人。
It's everyone else.
正是在这里，我们开始看到真正的真相——人类为拯救同胞、挚爱而行动时展现的本性。
And that is where we start to see real truth, in the behavior of human beings who are motivated to save their fellow man, their fellow woman, their loved ones.
真理就在那里。
That's where truth is.
所以，对我来说——顺便说一句，这发生在我们整个星球
And so, for me And this, by the way, was before our entire -PETER: planet
似乎陷入了一场针对真理的战争之前。
seemed to become engulfed in a war on truth.
对我来说，这是一个重要的、关于真理价值对抗
For me, this was an important kind of, story to tell about the value of truth versus
对。
Right.
因为作为人类，我们太容易受故事影响了。
Which Because we are, I think, as humans, we are so susceptible to storytelling.
这就是我们讲故事的原因。
It's why we tell stories.
没错。
Right.
我们喜欢它们。
We like them.
故事有时是传达有趣真相和事实的绝佳方式。
Stories are sometimes very good ways of conveying interesting truths and facts.
但同样简单的是，故事也可能被武器化，用来向我们灌输和讲述任何内容。
But just as simply, stories can be weaponized against us to to teach us and tell us anything.
所以，我选择用叙事来讲述一个反叙事的故事，但这就是为什么我认为现在这个主题很应景。
So, of course, I choose narrative to tell an anti narrative story, but that's why I think this is relevant now.
或许现在甚至更应景，是的，绝对比我刚开始写作时要更应景。
Maybe more relevant now in fact, yes, definitely more relevant now than it was when I started writing it.
那是在——我想我们应该指出这点——2016年大选之前。
Which was and I think we should just point this out before the twenty sixteen election.
是的，确实如此。
Yes, it was.
我记得我是2015年开始动笔写的。
It was, I think I started in 2015 on the writing.
因为我要说，就我个人而言，观看这部关于政府渎职与谎言、官僚主义（姑且称之为）激励机制的迷你剧时，很难不联想到当今美国和全球正在发生的事。
Because I will say, speaking for myself, it's impossible to watch this miniseries with its tale of government malfeasance and lies and bureaucratic, let's just say, incentives.
-嗯
-Mm
-克雷格：这些动机取代了其他目的，我们看剧时不可能不联想到当今美国和世界各地正在发生的事。
-CRAIG: taking the place of, shall we say, other motives, without thinking about what's going on in America and across the world today.
是啊。
Yeah.
-克雷格：我们来聊聊制作方面，虽然这贯穿全剧，但在本集中体现得尤为突出，无论是其现实主义风格还是对现实主义的风格的背离。
-CRAIG: Let's talk a little bit about production, which covers the whole series, but becomes into play quite vividly in this episode, both in terms of its realism and its departures from realism.
首先，没有俄罗斯口音。
First thing, no Russian accents.
对。
Right.
是的，这是我们早期就做出的重大决定。
Yeah, big decision that we made early on.
是什么促使你们做出这个决定的？是在什么时候决定的？当时的考虑是什么？
And and what propelled that decision, and when did you make it, and and what was the thinking?
嗯，我们最初的想法是可能这样做...我们不想采用那种典型的'鲍里斯和娜塔莎'式处理。
Well, we had an initial thought that maybe what we would do We didn't wanna do the you know, the Boris and Tasha.
俄罗斯口音稍不注意就会显得滑稽。
It's The Russian accent can turn comic with very little effort.
所以起初我们考虑让演员带点模糊的东欧腔调，就像我现在这样说话——不是浓重的口音，但带点感觉。
So, at first, we thought maybe we would just have people do these sort of vaguely Eastern European sort of, you know, so if I'm talking like this, it's -I'm not really doing a strong accent, but it's a little Yeah.
-彼得：但我们很快发现演员会去'表演口音'。
-PETER: And what we found very quickly was that actors, will act accents.
没错。
Yes.
他们不是在表演角色。
They will not act.
他们只是在表演口音。
They will act accents.
我们正在失去这些角色身上所有我们喜爱的特质。
And we were losing everything about these people that we kind of loved.
老实说，大概试镜一两次后我们就决定：好吧，新规则——
Honestly, I think maybe after one or two auditions, we just said, Okay, new role.
我们不再这么做了。
We're not doing that anymore.
我记得有部...不知道你们看过没有，
And I remembered there's a I don't know if you ever saw this movie.
其实是HBO的一部电影，叫《公民X》，
It was an HBO film, actually, called Citizen X.
那是很多年前拍的，主演是史蒂芬·瑞和唐纳德·萨瑟兰，
So, it was many years ago, Stephen Ray and Donald Sutherland.
讲的是苏联乌克兰时期一个连环杀手的真实故事。
True story of a serial killer in Soviet Ukraine.
我记得里面各种口音混杂得厉害。
And I recall that there were accents all over the plate.
他们带着南非口音。
They had a South African accent.
他们带着英国口音。
They had an English accent.
他们带着美国口音。
They had an American accent.
有些人算是尽力了。
Some people were sort of trying.
有些人则没有。
Some people weren't.
马克斯·冯·叙多出场时直接说着他的瑞典母语。
Max von Sydow shows up and just talks like his Swedish self.
是的。
Yes.
这完全没问题，因为他们说的不是俄语。
And it works perfectly fine because they're not speaking Russian.
所以，我明白了。
So, I get it.
也就是说，不能有美国人。
Now, that meant no Americans.
对。
Right.
因为我认为对美国观众来说，最让人出戏的就是美国口音。
Because I think for an American audience, the one thing that will pull you out of that is an American accent.
没错。
Right.
那样听起来会很傻。
That just sounds silly.
但除此之外，是的，我们只是偶尔会要求人们稍微收敛一点。
But beyond that, yeah, we just, we occasionally ask people to maybe take the edge off a little bit.
就像在《权力的游戏》里，来自曼彻斯特的人都会被要求收敛口音
You know, like in Game of Thrones, anyone from Manchester will be asked to push that a
一点点。
bit.
对。
Right.
你知道，这样他们就能自由
You know, so that they're free
他们是北方人。
they're the Northerners.
他们明显是北方人。
They're clearly the Northerners.
我们会说，稍微收敛一点。
And we would sort of say, like, you know, take the edge off a little bit.
但偶尔，我们会让某些角色保留爱尔兰或苏格兰口音，因为他们听起来很棒，角色塑造也很好。
But here and there, we would just let somebody be Irish or Scottish because they sounded great, and their character was good.
没错。
Right.
当然，当人们彼此交谈时，他们并没有意识到自己说的是俄语。
And and, of course, as people are speaking to each other, there's no consciousness that they're speaking in Russian.
他们只是在互相交谈。
They're just talking to each other.
没错。
Correct.
所以我们听到的，就是他们自己会听到的声音。
And so we're hearing them as they would have heard themselves.
精确，这正是我们追求的效果。
Precise And that's really what we went for.
我希望口音问题能在几秒钟内就被人遗忘。
And my hope is that the accent thing just fades away within seconds.
你会很快不再在意它，因为这最终与正在发生的事情完全无关——本质上所有情境下发生的事情都超越语言。
You just stop caring about it because that's ultimately completely irrelevant to what was going on, which is essentially what goes on in all situations regardless of language.
恐慌、恐惧、爱、兴奋、忧虑，所有这些都只是情绪。
Panic, fear, love, excitement, you know, worry, all these things, just emotions.
没错。
Right.
作为一个看着鲍里斯和娜塔莎卡通长大的人，让我印象深刻的是他们总是互相称呼同志。
One thing that struck me as a guy who grew up with Boris and Natasha cartoons is that they all call each other comrade all the time.
对。
Right.
这几乎让我觉得，就像是对苏联的一种戏仿。
That almost struck me as, like, you know, a parody of the Soviet Union.
是啊。
Yeah.
我也觉得像是对苏联的戏仿，以至于我在初稿中并没有频繁使用这个称呼。
It struck me as a parody of the Soviet Union as well, to the extent that I didn't really include that frequently in the in the initial drafts.
但我确实请了一些在苏联乌克兰长大的人审阅过剧本。
But I did have some people who had grown up in the Soviet Union in Soviet Ukraine look through the scripts.
尤其有一位女性仔细检查了所有内容。
One woman in particular went through everything.
她告诉我的一些事情中，我记得有几件特别有趣。
And one of the things she told me, there were couple interesting things I remember.
比如在第一集开头，当莱加索给他的猫准备食物时，我原本只是让他把猫粮倒进碗里。
For instance, in the beginning of episode one when Legasso puts food out for his cat, I just, you know, had him pouring cat food into the bowl.
她说：‘我们没有宠物食品’。
She said, We didn't have pet food.
苏联根本没有宠物食品。
There's no pet food in the Soviet Union.
你只能给它们你不想要的食物。
You gave them the food you didn't want.
这真是太有意思了。
So that was fascinating.
但她还提到：‘同志’这个词本质上就是你会用来——彼得：指代
But the other thing she said was, Comrade was essentially the thing you would use -PETER: to refer
人们。
to people.
它是万能的称呼方式。
It was the all purpose reference.
-PETER: 你不会
-PETER: You wouldn't
只用姓氏来称呼别人
call people by their last names only
如果你想在商务场合表现得稍微正式些，可能会用他们的名字加上父名来称呼，而父名又是另一套复杂的体系，完全是另一回事。
if you wanted to be somewhat formal in a in a business like manner, you would call them perhaps by their first name and their middle name, which is a patronymic, which is a whole complicated Whole other thing.
完全是另一回事。
It's a whole other thing.
简直是一部长篇大论。
It's a whole Megillah.
确实像某些人说的那样，是一部长篇大论。
It is a whole Megillah as as Some as some people say.
我不想深入探讨这个，因为事实上，虽然那可能是最准确和真实的方式，但对英语听众来说太繁琐了。
And I didn't wanna get into because the truth is, while that probably is the most accurate and authentic way to do it, it is unwieldy for English listeners.
但‘同志’或‘Tavarish’是非常普遍的称呼方式，人们经常使用。
But Comrade or Tavarish was a very common, just, reference, and people would use it all the time.
-PETER: 所以她偶尔会标记并说，不，应该是谢尔宾娜同志，对吧。
-PETER: And so she would occasionally flag things and say, No, that should be Comrade Sherbina, not Right.
于是我开始加入这些内容。
And so I started putting them in.
对。
Right.
第二个问题是关于制作设计与现实主义。
Second question is production design in realism.
我在观影后看到了一些照片，发现还原度相当高
I've now seen some photographs after seeing it, and it is pretty accurate
-CRAIG: 是的。
-CRAIG: Yeah.
你们在呈现上，无论是电站的外部、内部，还是普里皮亚季本身——周边的城市，都很到位。
What you've presented in terms of both the exterior, the interior of the power plant, and Pripyat itself, -the city around it.
是的。
Yeah.
我猜你们并没有真的在切尔诺贝利和普里皮亚季拍摄吧。
I'm assuming you didn't actually film at Chernobyl and Pripyat.
没有。
No.
那么简单来说，制作团队是如何重现这一切的？
So how did briefly, how did the production crew go about recreating all this?
首先，我本来是想这么做的。
Well, first of all, I would've.
我本来想在切尔诺贝利和普里皮亚季取景，但问题是那里现在完全不像1986年的样子了。
I would've shot at Chernobyl and Pripyat, except the problem is Chernobyl and Pripyat do not at all look like they did in 1986.
那里看起来像是经历了三十年无人打理的隔离区。
They look like the result of thirty years of neglect and exclusion zone.
说实话，这对我们来说是个执念。
It was an obsession for us, honestly.
我们的美术指导卢克·霍尔与服装设计师奥迪尔·迪克斯梅罗密切合作。
Our production designer, Luke Hall, worked very closely with our costume designer, Odile Dixmereaux.
我们完全痴迷于还原事物的本来面貌。
We just became obsessed with showing things as they were.
我认为对我们导演约翰·兰克来说，事物的苏联特质和独特性正是其魅力的一半所在。
I think for me, for Johann Rank, our director, the Soviet ness of things and the Soviet specificity of things was half of what is fascinating about this.
正如剧中所述，我们正在见证一个这个星球上前所未有的事件。
I mean, we're seeing an event that, as we say, you know, in the show, at some point, never occurred on this planet before.
但我们也在一个大多数人从未涉足的地方看到它，即1986年铁幕背后的内部景象，不是从美国人的视角，而是真实呈现。
But we're also seeing it in a place that most of us have never been to before, which is this inside behind the Iron Curtain in 1986, not from an American -PETER: perspective, but actually as it Right.
我们主要在立陶宛拍摄，少量场景在乌克兰。
We were shooting primarily in Lithuania, a little bit in Ukraine.
我们的工作人员在立陶宛和乌克兰还是苏联一部分时就已经在世了。
So our crews, they were alive when Lithuania was part of the Soviet Union, and Ukraine was part of the Soviet Union.
我们拍摄的许多场景都是搭建的。
Many of the places that we shot in were constructed.
它们大多是在苏联时期建造的。
Most of them were constructed during the Soviet era.
这些都是真实的。
These it's real.
我们成功获取了真实的服装。
And we were able to get the real clothing.
消防员的这些装备——我们组装的这些制服精确到了每一颗铆钉。
And the firefighters, these are the the outfits that we put together were down to the rivet.
奥迪尔在还原真实性方面做得非常出色。
Odile did an incredible job of making them realistic.
完全正确。
Exactly correct.
有时我们得益于苏联时期的特性——比如他们制作的一个矿工头盔
We were helped sometimes by the fact that in The Soviet Union, if they made, for instance, a minor helmet
是的。
Yeah.
当时只有一种矿工头盔。
There was one minor helmet.
所以你不需要去弄清楚，比如，哪些矿工戴这个牌子或那个牌子的头盔？
So you didn't have to to figure out, like, okay, which minors wore this brand or that brand?
只有一种，就叫矿工头盔，这就是消费品选择匮乏的优势。
There was one It was called minor helmet, and that's the The advantage of poor consumer choices.
没错。
Correct.
但卢克、我和约翰花了很长时间仔细研究我们能找到的所有照片和蓝图。
But Luke and I and Johan spent a long, long time poring over as many photographs as we could, blueprints.
至于普里皮亚季，我们在立陶宛维尔纽斯找到了一个建于同一时期、风格相似的社区。
In terms of Pripyat, we found a neighborhood in Vilnius, Lithuania that had been constructed in a similar time, in a similar fashion.
前苏联加盟共和国的好处之一就是那里还保留着当时的建筑。
Again, one of the upsides of former Soviet Republic is that they were building things there.
那里的建筑方式与千里之外的原址非常相似。
It was very similar to the way they were building them, you know, a thousand miles away.
一张蓝图。
One blueprint.
差不多吧。
Pretty much.
我的意思是，这些都是那种粗野主义的方块塔楼。
I mean, it was It was these brutalist, you know, block towers.
所以我们找到了一个非常相似的社区，并以此为基础打造了我们的普里皮亚季。
So we found a neighborhood that was very close and basically made our Pripyat out of that.
当然，在迪恩·埃格斯这家出色公司的帮助下——他们一直负责我们所有的特效制作——我们得以通过卓越的视觉效果将其生动呈现。
And then, of course, with the help of some, you know, pretty remarkable visual effects from, Dean Eggs, fantastic company that's, been doing all of our effects, we were able to properly bring that to life.
但重申一次，所有这些都建立在广泛研究的基础上。
But again, all of it based on extensive research.
为什么？
Why?
我是说，对观众而言控制室是否与4号反应堆的控制室完全一致并不会产生戏剧性的重要影响。
I mean, it's not gonna be dramatically important to a viewer if the control room looks exactly like the control room of Reactor Number 4.
-确实如此。
-Which it does.
-我确信
-I'm sure
确实如此。
it does.
一直到最底部。
Down to the bottom.
那么是什么在驱动着你？
So what was driving you?
我一直很清楚，我讲述的是一个对那些亲历者意义重大的故事。
I was always aware that I was telling a story that meant an enormous amount to the people that lived through it.
今天仍有许多在世的人，成千上万的人，他们因为切尔诺贝利失去了所爱之人，他们的生命因切尔诺贝利而缩短。
There are people alive today, thousands, tens of thousands of people alive today, who have lost people they love because of Chernobyl, whose lives have been shortened because of Chernobyl.
有很多人因为切尔诺贝利失去了甲状腺。
There are people walking a lot of people walking around without a thyroid because of Chernobyl.
对我来说，准确讲述这个故事很重要。
And it was important for me to tell that story accurately.
我想起我们西方经常讲述的那些故事，关于大屠杀的故事，关于二战的故事，我们努力追求准确，因为这是尊重的表现。
I think about the stories that we have routinely told in the West, stories about the Holocaust, stories about World War II, where we try very hard to be accurate because it's a sign of respect.
对我而言，我希望那些亲历者——包括当晚控制室里仍健在的一些人——看到这部剧时会说：他们在乎。
And for me, I wanted people who lived through that, including some people in that control room that night who were still alive, to watch this and say, They cared.
他们在乎。
They cared.
他们做对了。
They got it right.
好的。
All right.
让我们聚焦第一集，这集的戏剧性挑战很大。
Let's focus on episode one, which is dramatically challenging.
我们认识了列加索夫。
We meet Legasov.
他立即自杀了。
He immediately kills himself.
对。
Right.
而且我们不会再见到他了，是的。
And we won't see him again Yes.
直到这一集的最后。
Until the very end of the episode.
没错。
That is correct.
我们都知道，编剧基础101：介绍你的主角，杀掉他，然后无视他。
So as we all know, screenwriting one zero one, introduce your hero, kill him, and ignore him.
正是如此。
Exactly.
对吧？
Right?
你能看出我已经感到厌倦了，是的。
You could tell that I'm I've grown weary Yes.
撰写常规叙事。
Writing normal narrative.
我们遇见他时，他正在录制那些磁带。
We meet him, he's recording those tapes.
谎言的代价是什么？
What is the cost of lies?
这不是你用来让他的声音出现在电影中的手法。
And that's not a device that you used to get his voice in the film.
他真的录制了磁带。
He actually recorded tapes.
他确实这么做了。
He did.
这里有许多细节完全符合历史事实，然后有些部分我稍作调整以便讲述故事。
So there's a number of things here that are absolutely accurate to history, and then some things that I fiddled with a little bit just to be able to tell the story.
那么开门见山，我们先来聊聊哪些是真实的，哪些不是。
So here's a good right off the bat, let's talk about what's real and what's not.
事实上，列加索夫确实在爆炸发生整整两年后自缢身亡。
Legasov does, in fact, hang himself two years to the day after the explosion.
他是否就在那个精确的时间点结束生命？
Does he hang himself at exactly that time?
我们稍后会明白为何这个时间如此重要。
Which we'll come to understand why that time is so important.
无人能断言。
No one can say.
这实际上是我表达个人观点的方式——我相信这绝非偶然。
That was really my way of just imparting that I believe this must have been intentional.
这个日期绝不可能是巧合。
The date couldn't have been an accident.
他确实将自己的回忆录录制在录音带上。
He did record his memoirs on audio tapes.
它们并不像我在这里给出的对话那样华丽且主题鲜明。
They were not quite as, flowery and thematic as the dialogue I've given here.
嗯，像你这样的人存在于世的意义，就是让其他人在回顾时显得更出色，克雷格。
Well, the reason that people like you were put in this earth is to make other people sound better in retrospect, Craig.
我希望我让他感到骄傲。
I I hope I did him proudly.
在这些故事中，英雄是谁并不重要。
In these stories, it doesn't matter who the heroes are.
我们只想知道该怪罪谁。
All we want to know is who is to blame.
他确实详细阐述了他对苏联核工业及其发展方式的诸多担忧。
He did spell out a lot of his concerns about about the Soviet nuclear industry and the way things had gone.
至于这些录音带是如何传播的，我实在找不到确切的答案。
And in terms of how those tapes got disseminated, I couldn't really find any good answers.
所以我只能虚构了一个同谋，让他取走录音带并四处散播。
So I just sort of went with some confederate, picked them up and took them and spread them about.
展开剩余字幕（还有 480 条）
关于勒加索夫的故事，我遗漏了一件事，而且一开始就被刻意忽略了，那就是他的家人。
One thing that I've left out of Legasov's story, and it's and it's left out right off the bat, is his family.
他有一个妻子，他有孩子。
He had a wife, he had children.
我一开始就决定不把他们纳入故事中，主要是因为故事的大部分内容将聚焦于他在切尔诺贝利的工作，以及他与那些他并肩作战的人的关系。
And I made a choice early on to not include them in the story, mostly because so much of the story was gonna be about his efforts in Chernobyl and his relationships with the people that he was fighting this war with.
我只是不想出现那些'回家吧'之类的场景。
And I just didn't wanna have those scenes of Come Home, you know?
因为在这类战时电影中，被留下的家人总会陷入某种抱怨。
Because the family that's left behind in these sort of wartime movies inevitably descends into a kind of whininess, and I didn't wanna do that to them.
但我想承认，他们确实存在。
But I do wanna acknowledge, of course, that they existed.
对。
Right.
然后我们来到切尔诺贝利事故当天，我认为这很有趣，我们将在系列中再次回顾这一刻，但我们不是从那里的视角看到事故。
We then go to Chernobyl on the day of the accident, and I thought this was interesting, and we will revisit this moment again in the series, but we see the accident not from the perspective of there.
这不是一个宏大的特效镜头。
It's not a huge special effect shot.
对。
Right.
-彼得：它发生在远处，从另一个甚至没有注意到它的角色的窗口看过去，整个过程是无声的。
-PETER: It is in the distance, and it is silent from the window of another character who doesn't even notice it.
正是如此。
Precisely.
首先，我想让人们知道，这个故事不会按照你们预期的方式讲述。
I wanted people to know, first of all, this is not going to be told the way you would expect it to be told.
如果有人对我说，'看，我正在制作一部关于切尔诺贝利的剧集'，我会想，'好吧，我们会从那天开始，然后会有各种事件，接着发生爆炸，然后是各种电话和人员调动'。而我完全不想这样处理。
If somebody says to me, Look, I'm making a series about Chernobyl, I think, Okay, we're gonna start with the day, and then there's gonna be things, and then it's gonna explode, and then there's gonna be calls, and people And I just didn't wanna do it like that at all.
-彼得：我想直接从爆炸开始。
-PETER: I wanted to just start with the explosion.
我想开始...同时也不想隐瞒列加索夫自杀的事实。对。
I wanted to start And also didn't wanna hide the fact that Legasov commits Right.
任何看完这部剧后十分钟就去谷歌搜索的人都会说：好吧，他最后会自杀的。
Anybody who watches this show, who then Googles it ten minutes after watching, will go, Okay, he's gonna commit suicide.
不用等到第四集才揭晓？不，不用。
Well, not to wait four episodes from No, no.
不，我只是...直接告诉你。
No, I'm just Here it is.
对。
Yep.
就是这样。
That's it.
还有那场你明知会发生的爆炸，也不会让你久等。
And the explosion, which you know is gonna happen, you're not gonna wait for that either.
没错。
Right.
就在那里。
There it is.
真正令我着迷的并非切尔诺贝利爆炸本身，而是人们距离灾难如此之近却浑然不觉，以及那个夜晚以我完全无法预料的方式展开
What's fascinating to me is not that Chernobyl exploded, it's how close people were and how unaware they were, and how that night just unfolds in a way that I had no idea had unfolded and would have never predicted in a
我得问清楚，因为这事发生在苏联，由于几乎立即开始的保密和掩盖行动
million I should ask, because this happened in the Soviet Union, because of the secrecy and the cover up, which begins almost immediately
是啊
Yeah.
我们怎么知道发生了什么？
How do we know what happened?
好问题
Great question.
好问题
Great question.
答案是：我们大概知道不少
The answer to it is, we sort of know a lot.
我们肯定知道一些
We definitely know a little.
市面上存在大量相互矛盾的说法。
There are a ton of competing narratives out there.
我在做研究时就遇到了这种情况。
And I encountered this as I did my research.
很多时候，问题的关键在于：我该相信哪一方的说法？
A lot of times, the name of the game was, which one of these accounts do I believe?
我尽可能选择那些不那么戏剧化的描述。
And I tried as best as I could to actually opt for the less dramatic account.
我们从苏联解体后的前苏联地区获得了大量信息。
We got a lot of information out of the Soviet Union or what was the former Soviet Union once it collapsed.
大量信息被披露出来。
A lot of information came out.
许多曾与列加索夫共事的科学家得以讲述他们的故事。
A lot of scientists who had been with Legasov were able to then tell their stories.
他们出版了书籍。
They wrote books.
随后许多西方研究人员和作家得以前往当地，与亲历者交谈并收集他们的叙述。
And then a lot of Western researchers and authors were able to go and talk to the people who had been there and collect their narratives.
有一本了不起的书叫《切尔诺贝利的悲鸣》，作者斯维特兰娜·阿列克谢耶维奇，它本质上是一部第一人称叙述的合集。
There's, an incredible book called, Voices of Chernobyl by Svetlana Alexeyvich, which is a It's essentially a collection of first person accounts.
所以，确实有大量信息被披露出来。
So, a lot of information did come out.
事实上，在控制室的第一幕场景中，许多对白都是真实发生过的。
And, in fact, in that first scene in the control room, a number of the things that are said were said.
例如，阿基莫夫说过
For instance, Akimov says
别担心，我们做的一切都是正确的。
Don't worry, did everything right.
发生了些奇怪的事情。
Something something strange has happened.
他确实说过这话。
He said that.
像这样的小台词确实让我有所触动——彼得：当
Little lines like that are are quite they they make me feel something -PETER: when
它们在剧中出现时，因为我知道我们本质上是在重现真相
they happen in the show because I know we are essentially reproducing truth
有些情节，我觉得自己永远都想不到要这样写
that's And some of those things, I don't think I would have ever thought to write.
事实上，如果不知道这些确实发生过，我可能都不会相信——彼得：
In fact, I'm not sure I would believe it necessarily -PETER: without knowing that it happened.
没错。
Right.
很久以前，当我教授剧本创作时，我常
Long ago, when I taught playwriting, I used
告诉我的学生们：把某件事搬上舞台的最糟糕理由
to tell my students, the worst reason to put
就是因为它确实发生过。
something on stage is that it really happened.
因为我不在乎是否正在观看它。
Because I don't care if I'm watching it.
我不知道也不在乎你母亲是否真的对你说过那句话。
I don't know I don't care if your mother really said that to you.
没错。
Right.
向我展示它是如何以及为何具有相关性的。
Show me how and why it was relevant.
让它与我产生关联。
Make it relevant to me.
我猜这只是你不得不反复应对的事情之一。
I'm guessing just that this was something that you had to grapple with a lot.
首集中发生的事件几乎令人难以置信。
Things happen in this first episode that are almost impossible to believe.
正确。
Correct.
极具挑战性。
Very challenging.
而且这一点通过角色——真实人物阿纳托利·迪亚特洛夫表现得最为明显。
And and it really came out the most through the character, the the real person, Anatoly Dyatlov.
迪亚特洛夫是负责人。
Dyatlov is the guy in charge.
是的。
Yes.
由保罗·里特饰演。
He's played by Paul Ritter.
他有着灰白的头发和略带灰白的胡子。
He's got the gray hair and the sort of grayish mustache.
他是负责人。
He's in charge.
当晚就是由他负责那个房间。
And he was in charge of the room that night.
而阿纳托利·迪亚特洛夫做出了一系列...好吧，当我们最终看到导致这一切的所有事件时——我们会的。
And Anatoly Dyatlov makes a series of Well, when we eventually do see all the events leading up to this which we will.
是的。
Yeah.
不会告诉人们具体时间，但我们会的。
Won't tell people when, but we will.
我们将看到他做出许多近乎难以解释的选择，但都带着一丝动机。
We will see a number of borderline inexplicable choices by him, but with a hint of motivation.
在本集《余波》中，我们反复看到迪亚特洛夫表现出的就是否认。
In In this episode, where we're watching Aftermath, what we're seeing repeatedly from Dyatlov is denial.
没错。
Right.
-彼得：那种否认是真实存在的。
-PETER: That denial is real.
确实发生过。
It happened.
事情就在几秒钟内那样发生了。
It went down exactly like that, within seconds.
所以，为了让人们理解，因为核电站的地理布局对很多人来说有点模糊。
So, just so people understand, because the geography of the plant is a little bit of question mark for a lot of people.
这是一个非常大的设施，而且非常长。
This is a very large facility and it is very long.
从一端走到另一端可能需要二十到三十分钟。
It takes maybe twenty, thirty minutes to walk from one end to the other.
核电站的总体结构是拥有四座核反应堆。
And the general structure of the power plant was that there were four nuclear reactors.
每座反应堆都位于一个大型方形建筑内。
Each one was in this large square building.
在这些大型方形建筑之间，设有长长的走廊，走廊内分布着控制室等功能设施。
And then in between those big squares were these long corridors where you had things like control rooms and so on and so forth.
当切尔诺贝利4号反应堆爆炸时，它位于电站的最远端。
When Chernobyl Reactor 4 blows up, it's at all the way at one end of the plant.
控制室里的人听到并感受到一连串的闷响，先是砰的一声，然后是一声巨大的轰响。
The guys in the control room, they hear and feel a succession of thuds, one thud and then a really big thud.
对。
Right.
这次爆炸的大部分力量是垂直向上的。
Most of the force of this explosion was vertical.
所以一开始，我在研究时有个疑问：那里怎么可能还有人活着？
So, off the bat, I, when I was researching, one of my questions was, how are any how is anybody even alive there?
嗯，这就是原因。
Well, this is how.
我是说，爆炸将物质几乎垂直向上喷射，抛到近一英里的高空。
I mean, the the explosion ejects materials almost straight up, almost a mile into the air.
但控制室这些人听到和感觉到的就是有东西爆炸了。
But these guys in the control room, what they hear and feel is something blew up.
几乎就在同时，迪亚特洛夫断定发生的事故是：一个控制系统储罐聚集了氢气并引发爆炸。
And almost immediately, Dyatlov concludes that what's happened is there is a tank, a control system tank, that has collected hydrogen and ignited and exploded.
就像一个小型的兴登堡氢弹。
Like a little Hindenburg, hydrogen bomb.
一个小型的迷你兴登堡。
A little mini Hindenburg.
因此他此刻所设想的本质上是一场严重的工业事故，但绝非核灾难。
And so what he's contemplating here is essentially a serious industrial accident, but by no means a nuclear holocaust.
在很长一段时间里，我都在纠结这个问题，就像我认为迪亚特洛夫内心一定也在某种程度上挣扎着。
And for the longest time, I wrestled with this, just as I think Dyatlov must have internally been wrestling somewhat.
我想我常常忘记并需要不断提醒自己的是，'切尔诺贝利'这个词对我们而言瞬间意味着无数含义。
I think that what I forget and have to remind myself all the time is, the word Chernobyl means a million things to us all in an instant.
但在它爆炸之前，它毫无意义。
But right before it blew up, it meant nothing.
那个核反应堆——事实上，任何核反应堆——都从未被认为有爆炸的可能。
That nuclear reactor, and in fact, no nuclear reactor, had ever been thought to be capable of exploding.
是的。
Yes.
因此，我试图将这一点融入我对否认心理的理解中。
And so, I tried to integrate that into my understanding of the denial.
还有另一个场景，我不确定此刻是对话片段还是舞台指示，描述一个角色——我们即将看到这些人慌乱地在控制室里跑来跑去试图查明发生了什么——就像有人命令他过去查看反应堆内部。
There's another moment, and I can't remember if right now if it's a bit of dialogue or a stage direction where a character and gonna we're get into these people running around the control room trying to find out what happened where it's like he's been told to go over and look down into the reactor.
对。
Yeah.
他心知肚明：如果直视裸露的核反应堆，必死无疑。
Which he knows if you look down into an open nuclear reactor, you're dead.
没错。
Yeah.
但有个关键瞬间，我想你正在描述他的思维过程——他说自己还是要过去查看。
But there's a there's a moment, and I think you're describing his his thought process, and he says, well, he's gonna go over and look over it.
如果他没看到预想中反应堆洞开的景象，他需要确认这个事实。
And if he doesn't see what he thinks he's gonna see, the open reactor, then he needs to know that.
而如果他真看到了预想中的景象，那也无所谓了，因为他已经是个死人了。
And if he is going to see what he thinks he's gonna see, it doesn't matter, because he's already dead.
正确。
Correct.
-彼得：所以，这些人似乎持有这样一种观点：我们无法相信最坏的情况已经发生，因为如果最坏的情况真的发生了，我们现在都已经死了。
-PETER: And so, there does seem to be this aspect of these guys saying, The reason we can't believe the worst happened is because if the worst happened, we're all dead now.
因此，这似乎是一种人性使然——我不会相信自己已经死了。
And so, that seems to be, just as a human thing, I'm not going to believe that I'm already dead.
肯定还有其他解释。
There must be some other explanation.
不同的人对此有不同程度的反应，取决于他们所处的位置和所见所闻。
And there were gradations of that across the various people, depending on where they were and what they saw.
我们描绘的控制室里所有人员当时确实在场。
So all the people in the the control room that we depict were there.
这些都是他们的真实姓名。
Those are their names.
还有少数几个与我们所讲述的故事关联不大的人物被省略了。
There were a few other people that we left out that weren't quite as relevant to the story that we're telling.
所以他们当时有些与外界隔绝，但立即有两个人冲了进来。
So they were a bit insulated, but two men immediately run-in.
没错。
Right.
第一个是涡轮大厅工作的布罗日尼克，他报告说涡轮大厅着火了。
The first is a guy named Brozhnik, who's working in the Turbine Hall, and he says, The Turbine Hall's on fire.
事实正是如此。
It's exactly what happened.
他确实冲进来报告了这件事。
He did run-in, he did say that.
你可以说这可能是控制系统油箱爆炸的结果。
Which you could say could be a result of a control system tank explosion.
第二个冲进来的人叫佩尔瓦申科。
The second guy who runs in is a guy named Pervashenko.
我们稍后会看到佩尔瓦申科当时的工作位置。
Pervashenko, we will see later on where he was working.
-佩尔瓦申科：佩尔瓦申科看到了右侧的情况。
-PERVASHENKO: Pervashenko saw way Right.
当佩尔瓦申科抵达控制室时，他告诉他们——这是事实——反应堆堆芯基本上已经爆炸了。
And when Pervashenko arrives in that control room, he tells them, and this is true, that essentially the core exploded.
而他们基本上对他说：不，
And they basically say to him, No.
那不是真的。
That's not correct.
他继续前行。
He proceeds on.
从那一刻起，他所做的一切——这才是真正的英雄，我们在展示中也部分体现了这一点——他完全明白自己很可能已是行尸走肉。
Everything he does from that point forward, this is the real man, and we reflect it somewhat in what we show, He did with the full understanding that he was likely a dead man walking.
当晚有许多人做出了类似的壮举。
There were a number of people who did things like that that night.
我们无法讲述所有故事，但这些事迹都非凡卓绝。
We couldn't tell all the stories, but they were remarkable.
工厂里的一名工人相当早就意识到了事故的全部严重性，他尽其所能改善情况。
One of the workers at the plant who became aware of the full scope of the accident fairly early on, did what he could to make things better.
他回家小睡了一会儿，醒来后又返回了现场。
He went home, he took a nap, he woke up, and then he went back.
有一种感觉，如果你突破了——彼得：
There was this sense that if you had broken through -PETER: the
否认并跨越了它，即对现实的理解，——你就有义务
denial and gotten on the other side of it, which was an understanding of reality, -you had an obligation
对。
Right.
尽你所能防止情况恶化。
To do what you could to prevent it from getting worse.
相反，像阿基莫夫和塔普图诺夫这样的人——彼得：——彼得：他们是
Conversely, you have guys like Akimov and Taptunov, who are the two guys -PETER: -PETER: that are
当晚操作控制台的人员。
working the control board that night.
他们就是在这集接近尾声时，手动打开阀门的人
They're the ones who, towards the end of this episode, are opening the valves by
尽管 是的。
Even though Yeah.
他们知道
They know
-PETER: 某种程度上
-PETER: On some
他们基本上是在向空气中喷水 因为 是的。
that they're basically spraying water into the air because that Yeah.
当迪亚特洛夫说‘你们需要去做这个’时，那真是个非凡的时刻。
That is such an extraordinary moment when Dyatlov says, You need to go do this.
是的。
Yeah.
他们知道这毫无意义，因为迪亚特洛夫对情况的理解完全错误。
And they know it's pointless because Dyatlov's whole picture of the situation, I.
E，他们需要往堆芯注水，这简直荒谬，因为根本不存在堆芯了。
E, they need to get water in the core, is ridiculous because there is no core.
它已经没了。
It's gone.
它被炸飞了。
It's blown up.
对吧。
Right.
那是个巨大的原子反应堆。
It's a huge atomic pile.
但他们还是去了。
But they go.
-CRAIG: 是啊。
-CRAIG: Yeah.
多年前，我读过约翰·基根关于第一次世界大战的书。
Years ago, I read John Keegan's book about World War I.
嗯
Mhmm.
他写到了堑壕战
And he writes about trench warfare.
他描述了战壕里的士兵——那些英国士兵——如何爬出战壕，随即就被击毙
And he writes about how these guys in the trenches, British soldiers, went over the top and were immediately killed.
他还分析了他们为何要这样做
And he writes about why they did that.
我曾有幸见过他一次
And I I met him once.
他在一次读书会上，我就问：好吧，那你解释下第一批士兵为何要爬出战壕
He did a book reading, and I said, Okay, you explain why the first guys went over.
那第二批士兵呢？
What about those second guys?
第二批士兵又怎么说？
What about the second guys?
对。
Right.
对。
Right.
他们眼睁睁看着所有认识的人服从命令，按部就班地行动，然后瞬间被机枪火力击毙，接着就轮到他们自己。
They just saw everybody they knew follow their orders, do it according to the book, and immediately be killed by machine gun fire, and then they went.
-克雷格: -克雷格:
-CRAIG: -CRAIG:
我对此有着非常生动具体的想象，尤其是想到那两个特定角色时。
I thought of that very vividly and specifically thinking about those specific two characters.
他们知道这毫无意义。
They knew this was pointless.
他们清楚一旦冲出去必死无疑，而事实也确实如此。
They knew if they went out there, they were dead, and they were right about that.
你们当时有多少
How much did you have
需要思考那些人在那一刻的心理状态吗？
to think about those men, their minds, at that moment?
很多。
A lot.
描写这样的时刻，很大程度上是在问：我想让观众在这里感受到什么？
So much of writing a moment like that is asking, What do I want people to feel here?
我希望他们相信怎样的情感真相？
What is the emotional truth that I want them to believe?
我必须做出某些选择。
And I have to make certain choices.
在某种程度上，我必须决定那些我无法触及的心理状态。
I have to decide, in some ways, states of mind that I don't have access to.
但这一切背后是令人心碎的社会环境——这些人成长在苏联，在那里'集体'和'共产主义'这些词有着同源的根基。
But behind all of this is this almost heartbreaking social circumstance, that these people grew up in the Soviet Union where community and communism, these words have connected roots.
人们默认你是集体的一部分，你的存在就是为了支持你的同志——无论男女。
It was understood that you were part of a collective and that you were there to support your fellow man and your fellow woman.
这类亲社会信息是由那些我认为根本不具备亲社会特质的人——苏联领导层所宣扬的，但民众却常常真心相信并感受着这些理念。
These kind of prosocial messages were promoted by people that I don't think were very prosocial at all, the leadership of the Soviet Union, but the people often did believe it and feel it.
你可以在整个20世纪俄罗斯及苏联所涵盖周边地区的历史中看到这一点。
And you can see this in all of the history of twentieth century Russia and the surrounding areas that the Soviet Union encompassed.
所以我认为这其中部分是一种
So I think some of this was a sense of
我不知道
I don't know
该如何称呼它，姑且称之为苏联公民义务吧。
what else to call it, but Soviet civic duty.
它非常崇高、令人钦佩且美好，但当然，其背后又蕴含着深沉的悲哀。
It is it is very noble and admirable and beautiful, and then, of course, profoundly sad underneath it.
正因如此我说，如果这事发生在美国——比如三里岛在这种情况下发生爆炸，我想我们会迅速疏散该区域，然后大概...用警戒线把中大西洋地区大片区域围起来，宣布禁止任何人进入，因为我们不能派人进去送死。
But it's why I say, if this had happened in The United States, I think, for instance, if 3 Mile Island had exploded in this regard, I think what would happen is that we would have evacuated the area very quickly and then just, I don't know, put a rope around a large section of the Middle Atlantic and said, No one can go there anymore, and because we can't send people in because they'll die.
没错。
Right.
事情本就会这样结束。
And that would have been it.
是啊。
Yeah.
这个问题会在后续剧集中再次出现——这种疯狂的自我牺牲、这种洗脑、这种非凡的高尚品格（可以用上百种视角来解读）究竟如何发挥了极其重要的作用。
And this will come up again in later episodes, exactly how this either insane self sacrifice, this brainwashing, this extraordinary nobility there are a 100 ways of looking at it played an extraordinarily important role.
不过现在，让我们转向相反的一面——那些管理者们。
Let's turn right now, though, to the opposite, which are the managers of the Sure.
-布鲁克哈诺夫？
-Brukhanov?
-布鲁克哈诺夫。
-Brukhanov.
-布鲁克哈诺夫。
-Brukhanov.
-布鲁克哈诺夫。
-Brukhanov.
还有福明。
And Fomen.
还有福明。
And Fomen.
是的，福明。
Yeah, Fomen.
我得学会所有这些发音。
I have to learn all these pronunciations.
是的，我们会一起练习的。
Yes, and we'll work on it.
和之前讨论的角色不同，这些人看起来很眼熟。
And these guys, unlike some of the other characters we've been talking about so far, these seem familiar.
那些苏联官僚。
The the Soviet apparatchik.
这些人只在乎自己的地位，对上头的恐惧，以及对下属的蔑视。
The guys who care nothing about anything except their stature, the fear of what's coming from above, and their contempt for the people who are below them.
是的。
Yeah.
确实存在一些这样的情况。
There's a little bit of that going on for sure.
我想这种情况相当普遍。
I suppose there's a lot of it going on.
我是说，关于这些人的一些背景。
Mean, a little background on those guys.
有些内容我没包括进来，但依然是些有趣的事实。
Some things that I did not include, but are interesting facts nonetheless.
维克托·布鲁哈诺夫其实并非核能领域出身。
Viktor Brukhanov did not really come from a nuclear power background.
他曾在电力行业工作。
He was in the power industry.
当然，由谁来负责这些事通常不是能力问题。
Of course, who was put in charge of these things wasn't generally a question of merit.
为了避免大家认为我在进行不必要的苏联抨击，我要说明这个问题其实普遍存在。
And just so that people don't think that I get into kind of unnecessary Soviet bashing, we had this problem everywhere.
是的。
Yeah.
维克托·布鲁克哈诺夫确实是一个典型的苏联官僚。
Victor Burkhanov was certainly a kind of a classic Soviet bureaucrat.
从多方面来看，法明是个更有趣的人物。
Famine was a more interesting character in many ways.
法明当时作为首席核物理学家，实质上负责监督整个项目。
Famine was there working as essentially the head nuclear physicist, supervising the entire thing.
然后你还有像迪亚特洛夫或后来出现的西特尼科夫这样的副手。
And then you had individual deputies like, Dyatlov or this guy, Sytnikov, who shows up later.
但法明本质上可以说是切尔诺贝利的首席科学家。
But Famine, essentially, is kind of the head scientist of Chernobyl.
法明的核物理学位实际上是通过函授学校获得的。
Famine got his degree in nuclear physics through essentially a mail order school.
所以法明根本就没受过核物理方面的专业训练。
So Famine was not trained as a nuclear physicist at all.
他获得那个函授学位只是为了应付差事，好得到这份工作。
He got that mail order degree essentially to check a box so that he could get this job.
这再次体现了某种裙带关系和忠诚体系的存在。
Once again, a certain kind of patronage and loyalty system in place.
法明是个非常可悲的人物。
Famine was a very sad character.
他曾遭遇一场车祸，我想那件事对他影响至深。
He had been in a car accident that had really, I guess it had infected him deeply.
他经历了很长一段抑郁期。
He had gone through a like a long depressed state.
他最终走出了阴霾。
He had finally come out of it.
我认为他把切尔诺贝利视为改善自身处境的机会——要知道当时那里还不像现在这样声名狼藉。
And I think he saw an opportunity to perhaps do better for himself at Chernobyl, which again, did not have the connotation that it does now.
——那只是个地方而已。
-It's just a place.
是啊。
Yeah.
只是个地方。
Just a place.
它只是个地方。
It's just a place.
但有一点是确定的，我们稍后会更多谈到布鲁科尼夫这个具体人物，我也认为他在很多方面都处于非常艰难的境地。
But one thing that is true, and we'll get a little bit more into Bruconniv in particular, who I also think, in many ways, was in a very difficult spot.
——因为我试图去理解。
-'Cause I try and understand.
没错。
Yeah.
我们会在后续剧集中更深入探讨这些人。
We'll get more into those guys in a later episode.
但在本集中，我认为理解这两个人的关键在于他们从迪亚特洛夫那里得到的信息。
But in this episode, I think the important thing to understand about those two guys is they were told something by Dyatlov.
对。
Right.
他们被告知这不是核芯爆炸，反应堆核心完好无损。
They were told that this was not a nuclear core explosion, that the core was fine.
他们还得知辐射剂量是每小时3.6伦琴。
They were also told that radiation was 3.6 per hour.
没错。
Right.
我觉得他们可能意识到这个数字很不对劲。
I think they probably knew that that number was weird.
是的。
Yeah.
奇怪地具体。
Strangely specific.
奇怪的具体数值，原来那是那些低限剂量计能显示的最大读数。
Strangely specific, it turns out it's the maximum reading on those low limit dosimeters.
而他们立即选择相信了这个数值。
And they chose immediately to believe it.
我认为这非常具有苏联特色，一旦他们接受并向上级报告了这个信息，要反转并承认错误的内在代价是巨大的，几乎不可想象。
And I think in a very Soviet way, once they bought into that and reported that up the chain, the inherent cost to reversing and saying, I'm sorry, we got that wrong, was massive, almost unthinkable.
而且布卡诺夫说，有个时刻他必须打电话向上级汇报这件事。
And and there's a moment, Brykanov says, I've got to call and tell my boss about this.
对。
Right.
你能...我不打算...我不想那么做。
Can you I'm not gonna I don't wanna do that.
而当迪亚特洛夫对他们说'哦，没事的'时，他们几乎有种如释重负的感觉。
And there is that moment of almost relief when Dyallov says to them, Oh, no, it's fine.
他们心想：既然你说没事，那我就可以汇报说没事——责任就在你身上了。
And they're like, Well, if you're saying it's fine, then I can report that it's fine, -and it will be on you.
-彼得：没错。
-PETER: Correct.
这既有趣又可怕，因为他们似乎从未关心过真正的 -彼得：真相。
Which is interesting and terrifying, because at no point do they ever seem concerned with the actual -PETER: truth.
他们只想知道自己不会惹上麻烦。
They just wanna know that they're not going to be in trouble.
是的。
Yes.
我认为一旦他们意识到这不是不可能，而是可能的而且
I think once they had a sense that it was not the impossible, but rather the possible and
平凡无奇——情况非常糟糕，
the mundane -it's very bad, by the
是啊。
Yeah.
从那一刻起，一切都变成了为自己管理后果。
At that point, everything becomes about managing the outcomes for yourself.
是的。
Yeah.
他们根本不关心世界会怎样。
There's no concern about the outcome for the world.
所以，迪亚特洛夫必须打电话给他的上级，而上级又得继续向上汇报。
So, Dyatlov has to call his superior, they have to call their superiors.
你知道，当布鲁哈诺夫向地方执委会解释那通电话链时——那是真实发生的。
And, you know, that point where Brukhanov explains to the local executive committee the chain of phone calls that has occurred, -that's real.
-彼得：没错。
-PETER: Yes.
事实就是如此。
That's what happened.
当晚确实有一连串的电话，最终传到了戈尔巴乔夫那里。
There was a series of phone calls over the course of the night that eventually make their way to Gorbachev.
真的吗？
Really?
是的。
Yeah.
事情就是这样运作的。
That's how it worked.
我打电话给你，你打给他，他再打给另一个人，最后联系到戈尔巴乔夫。
I call you, you call him, he calls him, he calls him, and he calls Gorbachev.
没错。
Right.
他们一个接一个地决定：我该怎么把这事往上推？
One by one by one, they Each one of them decides, How can I kick this upstairs?
每个人都重复着一个他们当时还不知道是谎言的谎言——这个谎言本质上是在爆炸后几秒内，由一个绝望的人在极度恐惧中编造的，他当时根本无法接受现实。
And each one of them repeats a lie that they do not yet know is a lie, that essentially was conceived seconds after the explosion by a desperate man who was incapable, in a very human way, of entertaining the thought Right.
不可能的事情已经发生了。
That the impossible had occurred.
对。
Right.
剧集中有一个场景，正如你所说，当地委员会进入了工厂。
There's a scene in the episode where the local committee, as you say, comes into the plant.
是的。
Yes.
他们在工厂里。
They're in the plant.
事实上，伙计们，你们在这里会很安全。
In fact, You'll be safe here, guys.
别担心。
Don't worry.
然后几乎有那么一刻，委员会里较年轻的一位成员说，等等。
And there's almost a moment where a younger member of the committee says, wait a minute.
对。
Right.
我在外面看到了一些情况。
I've seen things outside.
我看到了大火。
I've seen the fires.
我看到了废墟。
I've seen the rubble.
发生过一次大爆炸。
There's been a major explosion.
你在撒谎。
You're lying.
好吧。
Alright.
第一个问题，
First question, did
那真的发生过吗？
that really happen?
算是吧。
Sort of.
那么，执行委员会确实会来到那个地堡。
So, the executive committee does come to that bunker.
没错。
Right.
他们确实在那里集合。
They do assemble there.
顺便说，根据记录我们知道，亚当·希金伯坦刚出版了一本很棒的书《午夜切尔诺贝利》，我真希望当年我写书时就有这本书，因为里面有很多有趣的细节能解释这些事情。
And what we know from the record, by the way, there's an excellent, book that just came out called Midnight in Chernobyl by Adam Higginbotham, which I wish had been around when I did because there's a lot of interesting details from that that kind of illuminate some of these things.
我们知道那个执行委员会内部基本上存在两种对立观点。
What we know about that executive committee was that there were essentially two competing thoughts.
其中一种是我称之为苏联式对危言耸听的执念。
One of them was the kind of what I call the Soviet obsession with alarmism.
所以任何接近坏消息的情况
So anything that came close to approaching bad news
对。
Right.
直接被当作危言耸听而驳回。
Was just dismissed as alarmism.
这简直被归为苏联版的假新闻。
It's literally put into It's like the Soviet version of fake news.
对。
Right.
我不愿相信你刚才说的话。
I don't want to believe what you just said.
因此，我把它归类为哲学性错误。
Therefore, I'm putting it in the category of philosophical, mistake.
没错。
Right.
-彼得：而执委会内部也有人非常担忧，认为事态比表现出来的更严重。
-PETER: Then there were people within the executive committee who were very concerned and believed that this was much worse than it was.
所以我实际上是把这两种立场人格化为这个团队里的一老一少两个成员。
So what I essentially did was personify those two positions between a younger member of this group and an older member.
我认为有必要提醒人们，尤其是西方人，1986年时仍有经历过革命的共产党员在世，他们仍在积极活动。
I I thought it was important to remind people, particularly in the West, that in 1986, there were still members, functioning members of the Communist Party who had been alive during the revolution.
他们是坚定的信仰者。
They were believers.
他们认识列宁。
They knew Lenin.
他们曾亲眼见过他。
They had seen him.
没错。
Right.
这不是某种与宗教创始人相隔数千年的怪异邪教。
This was not some kind of strange cult that had been separated from its religious founder by thousands of years.
这一切都还历历在目。
This was fresh.
我想展示这种信仰如何运作，因为它仍是他们生活中重要的一部分。
And I wanted to show how that functioned because it was still very much a part of their lives.
对。
Right.
所以这个角色扎尔科夫，那位最年长的委员会成员，正坐在角落里。
So there's the character, Zharkov, the older com the oldest committee member who's sitting in the corner.
《权力的游戏》粉丝可能会认出他来自临冬城。
Game of Thrones fans may recognize him from Winterfell.
扮演鲁温学士的那位。
As Maester Luen.
然后他站起来发表了讲话。
And he gets up and he makes a speech.
他指出切尔诺贝利核电站的真实名称是列宁核电站。
He points out that the real name of the Chernobyl power plant is the Lenin power plant.
他发表了一篇关于苏联理想的演讲，讲述在苏联我们就是这样行事的。
And he makes a speech about the Soviet ideals and how this is how we do things in the Soviet Union.
但有趣的是，他演讲的重点不是'我们现在要为祖国而战，不会牺牲自己'，而是'我们要保守这个秘密'。
But what was interesting was the point of his speech was not, We will now fight for the fatherland, and we will not sacrifice ourselves, but the point of his speech is, We are going to keep this secret.
这才是正确的苏维埃式应对。
That is the correct Soviet response.
我们将封锁城市。
We seal off the city.
任何人不得离开。
No one leaves.
切断电话线路，遏制错误信息的传播。
And cut the phone lines, contain the spread of misinformation.
唯有如此才能防止人民破坏自己的劳动果实。
That is how we keep the people from undermining the fruits of their own labour.
是的，同志们。
Yes, comrades.
今晚在此的付出都将得到回报。
We will all be rewarded for what we do here tonight.
这是我们闪耀的时刻。
This is our moment to shine.
他们确实是这样做的。
That is in fact what they did.
而且，我想你会称之为普里皮亚季领导层的人，他们坚信在这种情况下首先要做的就是切断电话线路。
And there were people as in the I guess what you'd call Pripyat leadership, who felt strongly that the first thing you do in any situation like this is cut the phone lines.
这确实是他们的第一步行动。
That was literally their first move.
切断电话线路，不让任何人进出。
Cut the phone lines and don't let anyone in or out.
最重要的是避免恐慌情绪的蔓延。
The most important thing was to avoid the spread of a panic.
没错。
Right.
彼得：所以当我读到这些时，我突然想到，在某种程度上，如果你是一个权力结构的一部分，而这个结构在某种程度上是压制的。
-PETER: So, when I read that, it occurred to me that, on some level, if you are part of a power structure that you understand is suppressive in a way Right.
而且你正在以某种方式限制人们的自由。
And that you are limiting people's freedoms in a way.
你必须意识到，可能会有一个火花引发真相传播，让人们觉醒，最终挣脱枷锁并宣称，我们不再参与其中。
You must be aware that there could be a spark that could lead to the truth spreading and people realizing, and finally shaking off their shackles and saying, We're not gonna be a part of this anymore.
这本质上就是柏林墙倒塌的过程。
That is essentially how the Berlin Wall came down.
在某种程度上，他们一定都意识到苏联是靠某种魔力粘合在一起的，而他们并没有错，因为它不久后就解体了。
On some level, they must have all been aware that the Soviet Union was being glued together by a certain kind of magic, and they were not wrong because it was not long for the world.
是的。
Yeah.
而苏联将在五年内不复存在。
And the Soviet Union would be gone in five years.
所以，当类似事件发生时，他们说，切断电话线，禁止任何人进出，因为一旦消息扩散，后果难料。
So, when something like this happened, they said, Cut the phone lines, and and no one comes and no one goes, because if this spreads, who knows?
这里存在一个有趣的矛盾，正如奥威尔用双重思想解释的那样，他们同时认定既没有问题无需担心，又永远不会有人知道这件事。
There was an There's an interesting contradiction, which Orwell explained, really, with doublethink, in which they've decided simultaneously that there's nothing wrong and no reason to worry, and also no one is ever going to know about this.
正确。
Correct.
他们似乎能够做到同时相信这两种矛盾的说法。
And they were capable of proceeding, it seems, as if both were true.
这确实非同寻常。
And that is extraordinary.
是啊。
Yeah.
我认为他们有个默认立场——任何与他们向本国人民和世界讲述的官方叙事相悖的内容，
They, I think, had a, sort of a default position that anything that was counter to the story they had told their own people and the rest of the world, -PETER: simply
都不能公开，也不得让任何人知晓。
could not be publicized or and no one could know.
不过我想他们心里明白，全世界其他国家可能都在嘲笑他们。
Now, I think they knew, probably, that the rest of the world laughed at them.
我认为苏联人内心有着极深的不安全感。
I think that the Soviets had a deep insecurity.
后续剧集里有句精彩台词（我现在就剧透下），当有人想揭露切尔诺贝利真相时，对方说："你们想羞辱一个对避免蒙羞——彼得："是啊"——有着执念的民族"
There There's a great line, in a later episode, which I'll give away now, where somebody, says To somebody who wants to tell the truth about Chernobyl, he says, You want to humiliate a nation that is obsessed -PETER: with not being Yeah.
我认为，这句话很好地概括了整个态度。
And that, I thought, captured this whole attitude quite well.
在苏联内部，我想人们更需要相信那些事情。
Well, they Inside the Soviet Union, I think, it was There was probably more of a sense that people needed to believe those things.
是的，民众并不愚蠢。
And yes, there were The citizens were not stupid.
他们明白这个体制有很大的局限性。
They understood that there were great limitations to the system.
但其中很多人——比人们想象的要多——是某种积极的信徒。
But many of them more of them, I think, than people understand, were kind of active believers.
他们相信西方是腐朽的。
They believed that the West was decadent.
他们相信自己的制度值得挽救。
They believed that their system was something worth saving.
在我们结束之前，我想先讨论第一集中的几个问题，它们基本上都在我的清单上。
I wanna go through a couple of things, for episode one before we leave it behind, and they're basically all part of my really list.
是啊。
Yeah.
我们开始吧。
Let's do it.
-彼得：真的吗？
-PETER: Really?
消防员径直走向燃烧的废墟，用水枪喷射一个暴露的核反应堆。
The firefighters walked right up to the burning pile and sprayed an open nuclear reactor with water.
真的吗？
Really?
还有一些我甚至没提及的细节。
And there are some even some details that I did not include.
有些人没穿外套，只穿着T恤就站在那里。
Some of them didn't have their jackets, and so they were just there in a t shirt.
有几个人连头盔都没戴。
A couple of them didn't have helmets.
那晚有许多令人震惊的故事，我们只是没时间讲述，但事实确实如此。
There are a number of stories from that night that are shocking that we just didn't have time for, but that's exactly what happened.
他们基本上被告知，屋顶着火了。
They were told, essentially, there's a roof fire.
-彼得：在第一集中，你听到那个小小的，你知道的，不管那是什么。那不是911报警电话。
-PETER: And in the first episode, you hear that little, you know, whatever the It's not a 911 call.
我不知道那是什么。是的。
I don't know what the Yeah.
是十一点。
It's But eleven.
那是当晚的真实录音。
That's the actual audio from that night.
你可以听到他们说，是的，你们得下去。
And you can hear them saying, Yeah, you got to get down there.
屋顶着火了。
There's a roof.
屋顶着火了。
The roof's on fire.
就是这样。
That's it.
他们以为只是屋顶起火。
They just thought it was a roof fire.
而且他们没有任何防护装备就赶到了现场，顺带一提，他们本来也没有防护装备。
And they showed up without any protection, which, by the way, they didn't have anyway.
对。
Right.
-彼得：他们整晚都在与那场火灾搏斗。
-PETER: And they fought that fire all night.
他们确实离得非常近，其中一名消防员还用手捡起了一块石墨。
And they did get incredibly close, and one of the firemen did pick up a piece of graphite in his hand.
这是核反应堆堆芯的石墨。
This is graphite from the core of a nuclear reactor.
对。
Right.
-彼得：而当晚直接因辐射导致的死亡，大部分都发生在这些人身上。
-PETER: And most of the deaths that occurred directly because of the radiation of that night were experienced by those men.
我记得至少有一份报告提到，一名消防员说他当时告诉所有人：‘如果我们中有人能活到天亮，那将是个奇迹。’
And I think there's at least one report one firefighter who said he reported saying, I said to everybody, It'll be amazing if any of us are alive by morning.
有时很难判断这是否带点事后回忆的修饰成分，但我们确实知道他们中不少人报告说尝到了金属味。
Sometimes it's hard to tell if that's a little bit of a kind of revisionist history on people's parts, but we do know that a number of them reported tasting metal.
是的，我猜这确实是暴露在强辐射下会出现的真实症状。
Yeah, which is, I'm assuming, a real thing that happens around intense radiation.
这显然是强辐射环境下的真实症状。不过相关经验... -彼得：确实不多。
It is a real thing, apparently, that happens around intense There's There's not a lot of experience -PETER: with Right.
历史上曾发生过几起类似事故。
There There have been a couple of incidents.
这无疑是其中最严重的一起。
This was the worst of them by far.
对。
Right.
是的，但那确实真实发生过。
Yeah, but that that really happened.
他们确实没有告诉任何人。
And they really didn't tell anybody.
他们没有疏散小镇。
They didn't evacuate the town.
他们没有通知任何人。
They didn't notify anybody.
剧集结束时，所有人都在爆炸后的早晨醒来
The episode ends with everybody waking up the morning after the explosion and going off to school and work.
嗯。
Yeah.
那是... 所以，退一步说，普里皮亚季几乎是苏联向人民承诺的理想社会形态的体现。
That's That So backing up for a second, Pripyat was about as close to what the Soviets had promised people as you could get.
它相当乌托邦。
It was fairly utopian.
这些城市被称为亚当城市。
These cities were called Adam cities.
它们建设的目的显然是为电厂提供就业，同时也为周边居民提供支持。
They were constructed to support Obviously, to supply employment at the power plants, but also to, you know, and then support those people around them.
与其他物资短缺的地区不同，这里被视为极其理想的居住地，市场供应充足。
They were considered very, very, desirable places to live, unlike other regions where you would have shortages of food and supplies, the the markets were stocked.
这里不需要排队等待。
They there was no waiting in line.
能住在这样的地方是一种奖励。
It was a reward to live in a place like this.
事故发生在凌晨1点23分。
So the accident occurs at 01:23 in the morning.
到日出时分，时间已是4月26日。
By sunrise, you begin this the day of April 26.
不仅整个白天他们都没有被告知实情，当时还有一场婚礼正在举行。
Not only were they not told throughout that entire day, there was a wedding.
人们就这样在街上随意走动。
People were just walking around in the streets.
那是个美好的日子。
It was a lovely day.
有个故事我因为时间关系没讲——普里皮亚季一位居民选择爬上自家屋顶晒太阳。
One man, these are stories that I I didn't include just for time, one resident of Pripyat chose to get on, the roof of his building to do some sunning.
他后来病得很重，我不确定他是否活了下来。
He got pretty sick and there's I don't know if he made it or not.
正如你想象的，他们当时没有完善的记录保存。
They didn't keep great records, as you might imagine.
但没错，这确实是事实。
But, yes, that is a fact.
他们整天都在一个敞开的核反应堆喷出的烟雾云下行走。
They were walking around under a cloud of smoke billowing from an open nuclear reactor all day long.
对。
Right.
在第一集结尾时，除了亲眼目睹反应堆堆芯暴露的核电站内部人员，还有其他人知道情况有多严重吗？
At the end of episode one, does anybody know how bad this is, other than the people inside the plant who've actually seen the open core?
不知道。
No.
没人知道。
Nobody knows.
-彼得：不知道。
-PETER: No.
但我们知道。
And yet, we know.
我们看到了灼伤痕迹，看到了堆芯，看到了...也许关于第一集我最后要问的是那道向上射出的光束。
We've seen the burns, we've seen the core, we've seen And maybe the last thing I'll ask you about in episode one is that beam of light heading upwards.
那是切尔诺贝利之光？
That's Chernunkev?
呃，我对俄罗斯名字实在不在行。
Well, I'm terrible with Russian names.
是啊。
Yeah.
发现了切伦科夫效应。
Found out The Chernunkev effect.
实际上后来证明那不是切伦科夫效应。
Actually, it turns out it wasn't the Chernunkev effect.
这又是迪亚特洛夫陷入某种奇怪否认的小瞬间之一。
And that's another one of those little moments where Dyatlov engages in a strange kind of denial.
我不认为迪亚特洛夫——至少没有明确说过那道光是那个现象，尽管当时很多科学家在最初几小时都声称'那种光可能在微量辐射下出现'。
I don't think Dyatlov, I don't think specifically said that that light was that, although that was something that a lot of the scientists in the early hours were saying, that light is can happen with minimal radiation.
但那道被许多人描述、并称为相当美丽的蓝光，本质上是空气的电离现象。
But what that light was, that blue light, which was described by a lot of people and described as quite beautiful, was essentially the ionization of the air.
辐射强度高到正在撕裂——你知道的——氧分子，从而产生这种颜色。
The radiation was so intense, it was breaking the the you know, the oxygen molecules apart and creating this color.
那可能是吸引许多市民前往那座桥的原因之一。
It was probably one of the things that drew a lot of the citizens appropriate to that bridge.
-那确实发生了。
-That really happened.
-彼得：是的。
-PETER: Yeah.
他们确实那样做了。
They did that.
他们都站在那座桥上，全都目睹了这一切。
They all stood there in this bridge, and they all watched.
没错。
Correct.
他们离得有多远？
How far away were they?
大约一公里。
About a kilometer.
-彼得：
-PETER:
这直接引出了另一个让我深感困扰的问题，就是人们对辐射的了解实在太少了。
and that goes directly to another thing that I really struggled with, which was how little people knew about radiation.
他们根本不知道。
They simply didn't know.
-彼得：如果换作是你我，在某个地方听到有人说'哦，核电站着火了'。
-PETER: If if you or I were somewhere and someone said, Oh, there's a fire at a nuclear power plant.
但并不是核心部分。
It's not But it's not the core.
只是
It's just
着火了。
a fire.
你想去看看吗？
You wanna go see?
我们会说，
We would say,
不。
No.
你疯了吗？
Are you insane?
我要往相反方向开。
I'm gonna drive in the other direction.
但他们并不知情。
But they didn't know.
普里皮亚季有栋建筑上写着标语，基本上指的是'友善的亚当'。
There's a building in Pripyat that has a slogan on it that basically refers to the Friendly Adam.
他们还相信如果有任何...我是说，有个角色提到关于伏特加的事。
And they also believed that if there was anything that you I mean, one of the characters mentions this thing about vodka.
确实如此。
That's true.
他们相信伏特加基本上能消除辐射带来的任何不良影响。
They believed that vodka essentially would decontaminate you of any kind of ill effects of radiation.
要是真能这样就好了。
If only.
奇怪的是，这集的基调几乎像是一部恐怖片。
It is odd that the tone of the episode, weirdly, is almost that of a horror movie.
是啊。
Yeah.
就像恐怖片里的人们那样，这些人也在照常生活。
In that people are going about their business in the way that people in horror movies do.
有个可怕的怪物正在猎杀他们，而他们却浑然不知。
And there's a horrible monster that is hunting them and killing them, and they don't even know it.
我们作为观众，似乎也被置于他们的处境，感觉有可怕的事情正在发生。
And it seems almost as if we, as the viewers, are put in their place, that there's something terrible going on.
你看不见它，但它正在吞噬你。
You can't see it, but it's getting you.
是啊。
Yeah.
而且这集里有很多场景都像是在看恐怖片。
And there's so many moments in this episode which are equivalent to watching a horror movie.
就像是在说，别进那扇门。
It's like, Don't go through that door.
没错。
Right.
但他们还是进了那扇门。
And yet, they go through the door.
是的。
Yeah.
这些场景都是真实发生过的。
And those moments are all true.
说到这里，我们将会了解事故的起因，以及刚刚认识的这些人的后续遭遇。
And on that note, we'll find out what happened, both in terms of what led to this accident and what happened to the people who we've now just met.
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