金钱

欢迎

Welcome

来到我们最后的讨论环节。

to our last panel.

在本系列的最后一集中，我们将直面文学界惯于隐晦处理的话题——金钱。那些通常围绕合同谈判碰面的译者和出版商会打开账本比较盈亏，看看谁觉得自己吃了亏以及原因何在。是否存在或可能建立一种对各方都公平的薪酬体系？当译者的角色定位仍如此模糊时，他们应如何获得报酬？我是玛维特·埃姆雷，您正在收听霍桑登出版社的《翻译对谈》。

In the final episode of this series, we'll confront a subject that the literary world likes to keep subtextual, money. The translators and publishers who usually meet over contract negotiations open up their books and compare bottom lines to see who feels like they're being shortchanged and why. Is there or could there be a pay structure that works for everyone? And how should the translator be compensated when their role is still so unresolved? I'm Marvett Emre, and you're listening to Hawthorne den's Como Conversazione on translation.

亚当，首先请问你：购买翻译作品时，你究竟买到了什么？

Adam, let me start by asking you, what do you buy when you buy a translation?

这是个好问题。或许我们甚至应该先退一步思考：购买一本书时到底买到了什么。最基础层面来说，当你签订图书采购协议时，你获得的是在特定地区、特定时间段内出版该作品的权利。这个时间期限其实非常关键。对于英文原著，你通常获得的是版权期内的出版权，而翻译作品则按合同期限购买，这个合同期限长短不一。

It's a good question. I think maybe it's even worth taking an initial step back to answer what does one buy when one buys a book. I think at the most basic level when you're entering into an agreement to acquire a book, you are acquiring the right to publish a work in a given territory for a period of time. And that period of time actually is kind of crucial too. Often with English language works, you're acquiring a book for the duration of copyright, whereas in translation, you're usually buying it for contract, and that term of contract varies.

根据与译者达成的协议，可能是七到十五年不等。这其实是翻译出版风险讨论中常被忽视的一点——相比英文原著的出版权，你获得的翻译作品出版权期限往往短得多。就我们而言，合乎道德的做法是按作品支付预付版税。购买英文原著时，考量因素主要是商业价值与艺术性的交汇点——你不会因为一本书有400页就比100页的书付更多钱。

It can be anywhere from seven to fifteen years, say, depending on the agreement you're able to reach with a with a translator. And so, actually, actually, it's one of the kind of unspoken pieces when people talk about the risks of publishing in translation that you actually often are acquiring the right to publish a book for a much shorter period of time than you would be if you were publishing just an English language original. And in our case, and I think the ethical thing to do is to, as you would pay for a work, you're paying an advance against royalties. When you're talking about buying, say, an English language work or an original work, when you're thinking about what you're going to pay for or the considerations, they're largely commercial and aesthetic and kind of where those two things intersect. You don't pay more money for a book that's 400 pages than you do for a book that's a 100 pages.

你是在基于制作成本和预期回报，判断这本书的市场销售潜力。但翻译作品不同——这也是讨论往往变得棘手的地方，因为除了评估作品的市场商业价值，你理论上还在为翻译劳动付费。这实际上默认了翻译不仅是艺术创作的最终阶段，其本身也包含劳动价值。

You're you're making a decision about the book's potential to sell in the marketplace based on your own costs for producing it and the returns that you expect to receive for the production and publication of that book. With translation, it's different because and this is where, I guess, the conversation tends to get a little thornier because it's not just the aesthetic consideration for how commercially viable you think this book is in the marketplace. You you're paying for, theoretically, the labor of the translation. So it's an implicit acknowledgment that there is a labor involved and not just the end stage of an aesthetic practice, an aesthetic work.

你如何看待为所支付的译者劳动定价？

How do you think about valuing the labor of the translators that you pay?

我的意思是，我们意识到自己继承了一种传统，即历史上按每字费率支付译者报酬。我们将总额视为书籍销售版税的预付款。

I mean, I think that we find ourselves the inheritors of a legacy that has historically paid translators a given rate per word. And we treat that that total as an advance against the royalties that those books will sell.

你们如何计算每字费率？

How do you calculate the rate per word?

对我们而言，最初是参照翻译协会建议的基准费率——我记得是每千字95英镑。然后按汇率折算成美元计价。

For us, originally, we were kind of pegging our rate or at least using it as a starting point. The the TA, the translators association's observed rate, which I think was £95 per thousand words. And so whatever that translated to in the Translated to. Yeah. On the dollar scale.

之后我们在此基础上进行了改进和调整，但通常仍将其作为标准惯例遵循。不过出版社在考虑费率时，其实是在整体图书生产成本的框架下权衡翻译费用——包括版权预付金、译者报酬、封面设计、排版印刷等所有前期投入成本，再结合预期收入进行综合测算。

And then we have improved upon that since, and there have been some variations. But usually, it we we adhere to that as a kind of matter of somewhat standard practice. But I think also behind all of this is when a publishing house is thinking about that rate, they are considering the cost of the translation or the advance of the translation in the whole calculation of the cost of producing and publishing a book. So it's in the whole scheme of the advance that you're paying for the for the underlying rights, the advance that you're paying for the translators, the costs to design a cover, the cost to type set a book, the cost to print a book, and these are all of your kind of the cash that you need to acquire and print and produce a book. And then you're thinking about that in the context of the money that you receive.

假设某本书零售价17.95美元，平均折扣50%，分销商抽成25%，再扣除基于标价7.5%的版税（约合净收入的15%）。如果译者版税率为3%-5%（假设已达标需支付），这样层层扣除后...抱歉我算不清这笔账了。

So if a book retails for $17.95 say and an average discount is 50%, you're receiving 50% on that. And if an average cut for a distributor is say 25%, you're taking 25 percent off of that. And if you're paying seven and a half percent royalties on the list price that's roughly 15% of the net that you receive so it's the fifty minuteus the twenty five minuteus the fifteen and then if you're paying a royalty to a translator assuming that the royalty is earned out. If it's, say, 3%, 5%, 1%, whatever it might be. If you subtract, I'm not keeping up with this math.

最终出版社拿到的分成微乎其微，每本书都在亏钱——我想这就是出版业那个著名笑话的由来：想靠出版发小财？那你得先有大财可破。

But at a certain point, a publisher gets a little cut, and that little cut is the amount of money that you lose per book, which is I think how that that industry joke came about, which is the way that you make a small fortune in publishing is to start out with a large one.

这就是图书出版的运作方式。金妮，你从事的是另一个领域的工作，即电影剧本的翻译。

So this is how it works for book publishing. Ginny, you work in a different kind of field, which is the translation of film scripts

嗯。

Mhmm.

还有字幕。我很好奇这方面的经济模式是怎样的。你能像亚当刚才描述图书翻译出版那样，用同样具体的方式概述一下吗？

And of subtitles. I'm curious what the economics of that look like. Can you sketch that out in the same kind of nuts and bolts way that Adam has just described how book publishing for translation works?

我可以从我自身参与的角度来概述。与图书界不同，电影界甚至没有相同的标准，或者说关于翻译是什么的讨论都不同。就我所熟悉的欧洲电影制片方而言，即使是一部用法语写作并制作的法语电影，所有制作公司都有翻译人员会在电影开拍前将这些作品译成英文。这些英文剧本会被传阅，用于从国际合拍公司获取资金，也会用于选址决策。

I can sketch it out in terms of my own involvement in this. Unlike the book world, there are not even the same standards or even the same conversations, I would say, about what translation is in the film world. So it turns out that, certainly across Europe, which are the film producers, I'm familiar with, even if that film will be, for instance, a film written in French and will be produced in French, all of the production companies have translators who translate those works into English before the film is made. Those screenplays in English are circulated and are used to get money from international co production companies. They are used for location decisions.

因此，选址团队会使用这些剧本，特别是当你瞄准某个想要招募的特定人才或演员时，用于选角。如果你能让主要大牌演员加入，这就成为获取国际合拍资金的筹码。所以一部电影的存在取决于其流传剧本的翻译质量，这无疑是我工作的一层面。第二层面是我与那些想拍英语电影但不会说英语的导演合作。他们用意大利语创作原创剧本，交给我后，我做的——并非贬低我们作为翻译的工作——更倾向于称之为改编工作，因为这种翻译中存在大量变动。

So location scouts will use those screenplays and especially when you're targeting a certain talent or actor that you want to get there used for casting. And if you can get your main major talent on board, that becomes leverage to get international co production money. So the existence of the film rests on the quality of the translation of that screenplay that is circulated, and that is certainly one layer of the work that I do. A second layer is when I work with directors who want to film in English but do not speak English. So they produce an original screenplay in Italian, they bring that to me, and I do what I distinguish not with any slighting of what we do as translators, but call this very much the work of adaptation because there is so much movement that happens in that translation.

例如文化迁移。如果电影要设定在美国某些地方，我经常参与决定角色应该开哪种轿车或皮卡，当地人的用餐时间以及可能吃什么。我会拿到标注着'这个角色是英国某阶级、某教育程度、某年龄'或'这个人来自洛杉矶'等信息的剧本——这些在原始意大利语剧本中完全没有体现。

For instance, cultural shiftings. If a film is going to be set in certain places in The United States, I often weigh in on what kind of car or pickup truck that character should be driving, what time people actually are eating there, what they might be eating. I will get a screenplay with notes that say this character is British English of this class, this education, this age. This person is from LA and this. None of that register is in the original Italian.

这些都是我额外添加的内容。所以整个过程截然不同。如果回到今早关于文本不稳定性的讨论，剧本总是在演变：导演会重写，重新考虑选角，选址团队会反馈。有时我不得不把电影从英式英语转为爱尔兰英语，这意味着要调整各种词汇选择。最终我产出的是所谓的'拍摄就绪剧本'。

That is something that I bring and add to it. So there's a whole very different process. And if we return to the conversation this morning of the instability of the text, screenplays are always evolving as directors rewrite, as they reconsider casting, as there's location scouts come back. Sometimes I've had to move a film from British English to Irish English, which would mean shifting various lexical decisions. And what I produce then is what's called a screen ready script.

片场导演手中的是我的译本，它成为电影制作的原始依据。这就是电影世界中的前期制作和制作阶段。后期制作中还有另一层翻译，可能是我们最熟悉的字幕翻译。字幕员必须处理对白，做出极其艰难的决定，将对话浓缩，因为眼睛接收信息的速度比耳朵慢。所以能写出来的总是少于能说出来的。

What is on the set, what the director's holding, is my translation, which becomes the original from which the film is made. So that's pre production and production in the film world. There's another layer of translation that comes in in post production, what we're probably all most familiar with in the film world, which is subtitling. A subtitler must take the dialogue that is going on and make incredibly difficult decisions about distilling a conversation down because the eye moves slower than the ear. And so what can be written out is always less than what can be said.

此外，你必须注意如何让视线尽可能快速移动。因此字幕制作的许多规则包括：不要在行中使用标点符号以免拖慢阅读速度，不要使用问号因为会让视线停留。作为字幕员，你的另一个难题是：要在不分散观众对演员、场景和画面美感注意力的前提下，尽可能传达更多信息。

In addition, you have to be aware of how to keep the eye moving as quickly as possible. So the rules, many of the rules of subtitling are things like never use punctuation in the middle of a line that slows your eye down. Do not use question marks because we hang our eye there for a minute. Here's your other difficulty as subtitlers. You want actually to convey as much information as possible without ever distracting the eye from watching the actors, the set, the beauty of what's going on.

特写镜头的传统规则是只显示一行文字。要特别注意那些难以阅读的词汇，它们会让观众卡顿。这完全是不同的流程，而且几乎总是在严格的时间限制下完成。我刚入行时完全不知道如何定价，最初是按字数计费。

So on a close-up, the traditional rule is only one line of text. Be very aware of words that are difficult to read because that will also trip up, your readers. So it's an entirely different process and is almost always done under very rigid time constraints. When I first started working in film, I had zero idea how to price this. So I started with something that seemed to me a word count basis.

多年来，我逐渐意识到这就像亚当刚才说的书籍与翻译的区别——你购买的不是字数。现在我与合作制片公司基本达成共识：剧本翻译是固定报价，因为我全身心投入项目的价值远超字数统计。

Over the years, when I've realized it reminded me of what you were just saying, Adam, about a book as opposed to a translation, what you're buying. What I've pretty much established with many of the production companies I work with is that a screenplay is a set amount because the buy in for me of being fully onto that project is something that goes beyond a word count.

Jeremy、Tiffany、Daisy和Maureen，你们如何衡量自己劳动的价值？既包括经济报酬，也包括其他象征性认可形式？比如我们昨天讨论的译者署名上封面问题？

Jeremy, Tiffany, Daisy, and Maureen, how do you think about the value of your labor, both in terms of the money that you are getting paid and other kinds of symbolic forms of recognition? For instance, the conversation that we had yesterday about translators names on covers?

我感觉我们可能正处在译者身份认知的转折点——从技术专家转向艺术家。但这也让我们陷入尴尬境地：一方面按字数计费让人感觉像是按磅称重，字多钱多，像雇佣工；另一方面又被视为需要理解项目、接受低报酬的合作伙伴，就像印刷成本上涨时，出版社只能接受固定涨幅。

I find that we are maybe at an inflection point in the way translators are viewed, less as technical experts and more as artists. But we, as a result, end up being a little caught in the middle, where on one hand, we are often paid by the word, which feels a little bit like being paid by the pound. So many words, so many dollars. So on one hand, you're being treated as, you know, a hired hand who comes in and does a certain job for a certain amount. But on the other hand, you're treated as a collaborator who is expected to be understanding and work for less money in a way that, say, when the printer raises their costs, that's just a fixed amount of money that has to be found.

我们处于这种不安的中间地带：身份定位模糊不清——是合作者？雇佣工？艺术家？属于制作端还是创作端？

So we are on this uneasy middle ground where it's unclear, I think, sometimes just how we are positioned. Are we collaborators? Are we work for hire? Are we artists? Are we on the production side or the creative side?

这种模糊性，作为艺术家处于阴影中、拥有某种阈限位置可能很有趣，但当谈到钱时就变得棘手了。

And this ambiguity, which can be interesting as an artist to be somewhat in the shadows, shadows, to have a somewhat liminal position does make it difficult when it comes time to talk about money.

有种观念认为我们做这些是因为热爱。一旦这种想法介入，往往就变成'既然我们只能付这么多钱，而你既热爱又擅长，就会接受'对吧？最近我接了印尼出版社的工作，确实想做这个项目，他们按印尼译者英译印尼语的费率支付。我接受了，因为心想：如果印尼同行都拿这个报酬，我作为外来者要求更多会显得很别扭。

There is this sense that we do what we do because we love it. And I think whenever that does enter into the equation, it does tend to be, well, since we can only afford to pay you this much, then you love it and you're really good at it and you'll do it. Right? And I think there is a pressure that that comes on one I I recently took a job for an Indonesian publisher and I I did really want to do the project, they paid me the same rate an Indonesian translator would get from translating from English into Indonesian. I accepted the fee because I thought to myself, how can I ask for more if other people who are doing this this work in Indonesia you know, like, it's it felt icky to demand more and be like the the outsider?

比如'哦，我在国外生活成本高所以要更多报酬'。另一个我更在意的问题是：我的报酬是否会侵蚀作者的收益？如果总额固定，我拿多了他们是否就拿少了？有时不会，但有时确实暗示会这样。

Like, oh, I have higher living costs because I live abroad, so I want more money for it. Another thing that I have been more conscious about is whether my fee eats into my author's fee. If there's, like, a set amount of pie and therefore if my piece increases then, does their piece decrease? In some cases, no. In some cases, it was implied that it it would.

这也会影响我，因为要考虑作为译者的责任。进而引出一个复杂问题：译者与作者的关系定位——到底是权益倡导者，还是该按固定费率获得相应报酬的专业人士。

And then that also affects me because I think about my responsibility as a translator. And then that gets into this whole very convoluted question about, you know, where you sit as a translator in relation to your writer, advocate versus, you know, person who has a set rate and should be paid accordingly.

确实。在深入讨论报酬前，我们如何自我定位？作为译者，我实际参与整个流程的关键环节：联系作者、土耳其出版商（以我为例），

Yeah. To respond to that, where do we position ourselves before we get onto the meaty subject of money? In my position as a translator, you are actually in touch with all of the important notes of the process. You're in touch with the author. You're in touch touch often with the Turkish publisher, in my case.

联络英美澳新的翻译机构网络，还要负责将文学作品从原籍国引入其他地区。我们或许按字数计酬，但这报酬背后包含的是从项目启动到最终落地的全程参与，

You're in touch with the organizations that comprise the translation networks in The UK, in The US, and also in Australia and New Zealand. And then you are also involved in taking the book in its literary context from the country and taking it elsewhere. So, yeah, we might be paid by the word. But when you pay us by the word, this is what we're offering you. We're offering to be involved with the publishing project from the very, very beginning to however long it goes on.

不仅提交译稿，还要应对后续所有状况。顺利时可能是宣传推广，而我的首次经历却是帮出版社应对针对作者的全球性仇恨风暴——当时我兼任记者，连躲藏的作者都能通过我被找到。

So not just doing the draft that we sent into the publisher, but being there for whatever happens afterwards. And in a kind of a smooth ride, that's some publicity. My first experience was helping the publishers through an international storm of hate campaigning against my author. And that was going on in his country, but also all over the world. And I was also a journalist at that time, so everybody could find me even when the author was in hiding.

那时出版商正试图帮助作者，而我几乎每天都要解释土耳其的语境，当时情况非常糟糕。我认为这是我职责的一部分。我在那里是为了整个权利。所以我只要求支付一笔能体现对我们工作尊重的报酬。

That was a time when the publisher was trying to help the author, and I had to explain the Turkish context almost every day when things were very bad. I considered that part of what I was there for. I was there for the whole right. And so all I ask for is that I be paid a sum that shows respect for the work that we do.

嗯，有件事我在这里没听到人提起，所以我要说出来：文学译者的报酬标准和工作量存在很大差异。比如有些人完全靠翻译谋生，他们当然不算富裕，但能维持生计。这些人从事的是英语市场需求量大的语言翻译。因为如果你恰好处于出版商寻找译者的体系中，工作自然会找上门。但对我们在座大多数人来说，情况并非如此。

Well, one thing that I haven't been hearing here, so I'll bring it up, is that literary translators represent a really wide continuum of pay scales and amount of work that they get or that they're given. So for example, there are people who completely support themselves on translation, and they don't they're not rich, certainly, but they are able to make ends meet. And they are working in languages that have a high demand in the English language market. Because if you are somebody that's somehow keyed into a system where the publishers are looking for translators for text that they've acquired rights to, then you also have work coming to you. But for probably most of us here, that's not the case.

所以我只出版过一本书。在印度之外，我只出版过一本译作。在印度市场没有按字计酬这回事。最好的情况是和作者五五分成预付款和版税，这已经相当不错了。但正如蒂芙尼提到的，这取决于你住在哪里。

So and I had only published a book. I've only published one book outside of India, one translation. And so in the Indian market, there is no pay per word. And the best case scenario is that you get a fiftyfifty split of advance and royalties with author, which is pretty good. But as Tiffany alluded to, it depends on where you live.

我的报酬是卢比，在美国根本不值多少钱。对我来说，真正开始翻译是在丈夫完成医学培训后，意味着我不需要赚取全额薪水。那时我开始翻译，完全出于对书籍的真诚热爱，想让更多人读到它们。我甚至不知道译者还能拿报酬。事实上，我最近才开始按字数收费。

And so I get paid in rupees, which doesn't amount to much in The United States. And so for me, I started translating in earnest when my husband finished his medical training, meaning I didn't need to earn a full salary. So I started translating then, and it was all about books that I sincerely believed in, that I wanted other people to read. And I didn't even really know that translators got paid at all. And so I've only recently, in fact, been paid a per word rate.

我完全不知道别人的收入水平。翻译在经济上如何融入人们的生活，我认为存在巨大差异。比如有人全职做翻译，也有人能用翻译赚取一半或四分之一的收入，而更多人可能只是用翻译费来支付咖啡钱。

And I had no idea what people were being paid. So there's a kind of vast variety, I think, of how translation fits economically into people's lives. And for example, there are those who have a full time job translating. And then there are those, for example, who can fund, you know, maybe half their income or a quarter of their income with translating. And then there are probably way more people that aren't really funding any of their income that are funding their lattes with their translation payment.

有趣的是，当我们讨论资助、补助和字数费率时，常常忽略一个事实：对许多人来说，翻译工作量根本不足以维生——除非像刚才提到的，有些人通过翻译非文学作品（比如我认识的那些靠翻译大量法律文件维生的人）来维持生计。但永远不会有人找我翻译这类文件，因为印度有大量双语人士可以接受更低报酬。蒂芙尼，当你...

And it's interesting because we know when we talk about things like funding and grants and per word rates, we often don't talk about the fact that for many people, there simply would never be enough work to support oneself, unless we've alluded to this too, that there are people who get work translating, you know, non literary texts, like some of the people I know that are able to support themselves translate a lot of legal documents, for example. But I would never be asked to translate such things because there would be a huge number of bilingual people in India who could be paid a lot less. Tiffany, when you

你在回答时用了一个比喻，我希望这能成为黛西的诗意话题——关于分得一块馅饼，又不想自己的那块比作者更大，或者这是否会成为你的顾虑。这听起来有点像零和博弈。亚当，我在想，对你来说换个问法或许更合适：出版商和译者之间是否存在共同的经济激励？还是说在讨论盈亏底线时，这完全是个零和计算？

were answering, you evoked a metaphor that I hope will be one of Daisy's, poetic topics, which is getting a slice of the pie and not wanting your slice of the pie to be bigger than your authors or that being a concern that you had. And that makes it sound a little bit like this is a zero sum game. Adam, I'm wondering if for you, a different way of asking the question might be, are there actually shared incentives here, shared monetary incentives between publishers and translators? Or is this a zero sum calculation when you're talking about that bottom line or how much money, how little money you want to be losing from a particular work?

是的。我是说，我认为当然在某种程度上必须是零和游戏，因为资金总量是固定的。这些都由出版社的支出和书籍的收益决定。所以从这个角度看，一端的增减必然会影响另一端。但与此同时，当然也存在共同利益。

Yeah. I mean, I think, yeah, of course, it has to be zero sum in the sense that there's only a fixed amount of money. I mean, all of this is determined by how much a press spends and how much a book earns. So in that sense, any increase or decrease on one end affects some something else. But at the same time, of course, there are shared incentives.

某种程度上这就是版税制度的意义所在——理论上书卖得越好，大家赚得越多。整个蛋糕会变大，即使各块的比例，我是说份额大小会增减。

I mean, that's partially the point of a royalty system where the better a book does, in theory, the more money that everyone makes. The pie itself gets larger even if, you know, the percentages of those slices, I mean, the size of those slices grows or decreases.

或许换个问法：现实中到底要如何创办并维持一家独立出版社，还能大量出版翻译作品？

I mean, maybe a different way of asking this question is how does anybody actually start and maintain an independent press that publishes a lot of work in translation?

嗯，这是个好问题。我是说，我觉得我想...

Well, that's a good question. I mean, I think I think I think

亚当，你为什么要做这个？

Why are you doing this, Adam?

不。我是说...我觉得这很难，因为从出版商的角度看，至少在这个等式里，我们是有权力的一方，因为我们在决定资金投向和支出额度。至于那些为13美分和15美分讨价还价的跨国集团，我无法置评。我们创办出版社的方式是：在筹集到相对少量的资金后——当时我和妻子都有全职工作——就共同创立了出版社。

No. I mean, not I mean, I think it's hard because, you know, from the publisher's perspective, we are the people, at least in this equation, with the power because we are making the decisions about what we're spending money on and how much we're spending. And and I can't speak to the experience of multibillion dollar corporations who are haggling over, you know, 13¢ over 15¢. I mean, for us, the way that we started the publishing house was after raising a relatively small amount of money, both my wife and I, we founded the publishing house together. We had full time jobs.

这样我们所有的支出都用于支付作者、译者和印刷厂的预付款，所有收入也回流给这些环节。直到蛋糕足够大时，我开始兼职领薪，后来转为全职。现在随着规模扩大...典型的商业故事往往是先烧钱再盈利，但多数非营利出版社和独立出版商并没有那样的初始资金支持。

So that way, all of the money that we spent went to advances for authors and translators and printers, and all of the revenue that we made went back into those same people and sources until the pie could grow large enough that at some point, I came on in a part time paid capacity and then a full time paid capacity. And now, you know, this is kind of where we are now as everything grows. I mean, a much more familiar business story is to start out with a lot more money and to lose money until you can start making money. But most nonprofit publishing houses don't operate on that model. Most independent publishers don't have that kind of initial financial backing.

但显然，我的意思是，当我们讨论资金来源以及如何运作这些资金池时，确实存在多种策略。对我们而言，我们试图找到降低部分成本的方法。最初我们计划收购这些书籍的全球英语版权，然后授权给国际合作伙伴。实际上，我们已将购入的第一本书成功授权——

But obviously, there are I mean, when we're talking about this in the context of, you know, where all of these pools of money coming from and how do we make this stuff work, there are obviously a lot of strategies. So, like, for us, you're trying to find ways of minimizing some of those expenses. So initially, we thought we'll acquire World English rights on these books and try to license them to international partners. In our case, we licensed the first book that we acquired. What

是哪本书？

was that book?

是安德烈斯·巴尔瓦的《如此渺小的双手》。在正式出版前整整一年，我们就将其授权给了格兰特出版社的马克斯·波特。这对当时毫无业绩记录的我们来说非常难得——本不该由我们在国际市场上买卖版权，但这确实为我们建立了发展势头。虽然这是本小体量作品，但我们也资金有限，最终得以与英国合作伙伴分摊翻译成本。

It was Such Small Hands by Andres Barba. And we licensed that book to Max Porter at Grant fully a year before we had even published it, which I think was really remarkable in our case because we had no track record. It was really no reason that we would be buying and selling rights on the international market, but it really helped establish some momentum for us. I mean, it's a very small book, but we also did not have a lot of money. And we were able to share the cost of the translation with a UK partner.

因此我认为与国际出版社合作的策略至今仍是我们坚持的方向，这能让各出版社更公平地分担翻译成本，实质上是为所有人降低成本。此外，作为非营利出版社，我们通过捐赠收入填补资金缺口，包括个人捐赠、机构捐赠和基金会捐赠。这类收入对我们这类非营利出版社的运营能力至关重要。

So I think that strategy of working with international international publishing houses is definitely still something that we always look to do in order to make the cost of translation more equitable across the publishers, basically to make it cheaper for everyone. And, additionally, we're a nonprofit publishing house. So we seek to make up those gaps with contributed revenue. And that contributed revenue takes the form of individual donations, institutional donations, foundational donations. It really plays a huge role in the operational capabilities of nonprofit publishing houses like ours.

那么从译者角度来看是怎样的？当你们与出版社签合同时，你们出让了哪些权利？保留了哪些？你们希望有多少方参与决策？从你们的角度看，译本及其权利的分配机制是怎样的？

So what does this look like from the translator's side of things? So when when you guys sign a contract with a publishing house, what are you signing away? What are you retaining? How many cooks do you want in that kitchen? What does the distribution of your translation and its rights look like from your side of the equation?

正如莫琳提到的，签约后我们确实能获得翻译报酬。但实际上我们还承担了许多预期之外的无偿劳动。这些工作早在签约前就开始了——很多译者需要向出版社推荐书籍，为此必须广泛阅读、联系作者和出版社确认版权状态、免费制作试译稿和内容概要，还要精心维护出版社关系并投递材料。所有这些无偿劳动持续到出版社接纳作品，此时你才开始为早已付出的劳动争取报酬。

Well, as Maureen has alluded to, when we sign a contract, we get paid for our translations. But in fact, we're also doing a lot of other labor that is expected but not compensated. This can start way before the contract is signed. Many of us are pitching books to publishers. And to do that, we have to be reading widely, we have to be making contact with authors and publishers to make sure that the rights are available, we have to be doing sample translations and synopses for free, and we have to be emailing them to publishers that we have taken care to build relationships with, all of this unpaid until a publisher accepts the book, at which point you are negotiating for money having already done a lot of labor.

正如亚当指出的，这里存在权力不对等。译者唯一的话语权就是提出诉求，除此之外只能接受条件或放弃合作。某种意义上我们确实获得了翻译劳动的报酬，但另一方面我们又像全能服务者——以我为例，由于多数合作作者不讲英语，我需要翻译作者与出版社间的邮件往来，同时充当中间人、版权代理和宣传人员。为了让译本面世，我们包揽所有必要工作。通常作为唯一通晓双语、双文化及双方文学背景的人，这些工作非我们不可——但合同并未规定这些职责，我们也未获得相应报酬。

And then there is, as Adam has pointed out, a power differential, where really the only power the translator has is to say, this is what I would like, and beyond that, all you can really do is accept what you're offered or walk away. So I think in one sense you are being paid for the labor of your translation, but in another sense you're kind of an all round concierge who is, in my case, because many of my authors do not speak English, expect it to translate emails between the author and publisher, to to act as a kind of go between an agent, a rights agent, a publicist, all in one. We kind of do what has to be done in order to get the translation to market. And often, we are the only person in the equation with access to both languages and both cultures and both literary scenes, so we're the only person who can do this work. But it's not really in our contracts to do it, and we're not really getting paid for it.

但这是维持一切运转必须付出的代价。

But it's just what has to happen to keep everything running.

是的，我觉得你说得对。就像作家需要宣传自己的作品，写些软文或榜单文章，接受采访等等。译者也经常被要求做这些。比如我就为一本短篇小说集写过学术导读。

Yeah. I think that's right. You know, like a writer is expected to publicize their work and write puff pieces or listicles or do interviews and all of that. The translator is often called to do that as well. For example, I did a scholarly introduction to, you know, a short story collection.

然后他们问我，'你想为它配音吗？我们觉得你应该可以。'我说，'当然，我很乐意。'他们就说，'太好了。'

And then they asked me, oh, do you want to narrate it? We we think you probably could. And I said, yes. I would love to. And they said, great.

接着我问，'那有报酬吗？'他们说，'没有，因为你不在配音演员协会里。'我说，'但如果是协会的配音演员来做，你们就会付钱对吗？'他们承认，'是的。'

And then I said, so am I getting paid for it? And they said, no. Because you're not part of the voice actors guild. And I said, but you would pay a voice actor who was part of this guild to do it. And they said, yes.

没错。当时决定权在我手里，因为我对这篇导读有感情，想把它做好。

Yes. And it was up to me then whether I wanted to do it because I felt like, you know, personally attached to my introduction. And I wanted to, you know, do my duty well.

但我觉得这恰恰说明激励机制是扭曲的。这其实是两回事：前期工作本质上是经纪人的角色，按理应该像经纪人那样收取预付金的分成。而且版税激励体系也有问题，应该倒过来——当你承担宣传工作时，应该获得7.5%的版税。

But I think this this speaks to the fact that the incentive structure is skewed then. It's kind of two different things. One, everything that happens before, which is largely an agenting role. You're essentially acting as an agent in that sense and should receive a portion of the advance like an agent's fee. And I also feel like it means that the royalty incentive system is skewed and that it should almost be inverted where you are receiving the seven and a half percent on list.

如果你以同样的方式参与宣传工作，却觉得回报不够，我知道我们现在谈的完全是资本主义那套逻辑。但归根结底，正是这种分配方式让你觉得付出与回报不成正比。

If you are doing that that work in that same way to help publicize it and you feel like that work isn't yielding enough in terms of the return, I know that we're speaking about this in, like, very kind of, like, grossly capitalist terms. But I think, ultimately, that is the thing that lends a feeling of unjustness to the effort that you're making.

嗯，不过，我想说的是，需要补充的一点是，我从你关于基金会支持的发言中理解到，营业收入不足以覆盖生产成本。这对企业的经济效益来说是个更普遍的问题。

Well, but, I mean, the the additional point to just make, right, is that I I took what you were saying about foundation support to indicate that the earned revenue is not enough to cover the costs of production. And that's a problem for the economics of the business more generally.

是的。我认为这正是关键所在。有几个不同方面，但其中两点你可以调整利益分配比例——谁得到多少，同时你也可以把蛋糕做大。理想情况下你应该双管齐下。从这个意义上说，那些理解翻译工作所需付出劳动和艺术性的出版商，他们本质上希望译者能赚更多钱。

Yeah. I think that's exactly the thing. There are a few different things, but two of them you can change the percentages of the pie, who's getting what, and you can also grow the pie. And ideally, you're doing that. And so in that sense, publishers who are sympathetic to the amount of work and artistry that goes into a translation and all of the things that come with it, they want to see translators make more money, essentially.

但我认为所有相关方也都需要共同承担。我在会前做了份损益表。我该分享出来吗？还是说这个细节太琐碎了？

But I think it also everyone needs to share in that too. I mean, I did a p I did a P and L before this. Should I should I share it? Or is it is that too in the weeds?

我们稍后会讨论你的损益表。但金妮，我想知道这种讨论是否与你在制片厂体系中的经历产生共鸣——我猜那里有完全不同的经济激励和结构体系。我保证会回到这个话题，但现在我想先跳出细节，看看亚当描述的问题——即业务本身收入无法覆盖生产成本——在制片厂体系中是否存在类似情况，是否会产生与我们讨论中类似的紧张关系。

We will come back to your p and l. But Ginny, I'm just wondering if this conversation resonates with your experience of dealing with the studio system, which I imagine has a different set of economic incentives and economic structures in place. I promise I do want to come back to this discussion. But I just want to zoom out of it for a second to understand if the problem that Adam is describing, like the business itself not generating enough money to cover its production costs, how that does or doesn't translate, as it were, into the studio system, and whether it generates a similar set of tensions to the tensions that I feel I'm hearing in this conversation.

首先，电影界谈论金钱比文学界公开得多。但这绝不意味着谈话容易——而是涉及巨额资金投入，一旦失败损失更为惨重。我刚入行时曾试图套用文学界的经验，比如询问能否建立某种版税或奖励机制——换句话说，如果电影大卖，我能否获得分成？

Well, would say, first of all, money is talked about much more openly in the film world than it is in the literary world. That doesn't mean that it's an easy conversation in any way. It means there's a whole lot of money being spent and a whole lot more money being lost if things do not go well. So where I find when I first started working in film, I tried to apply what I knew from the literary world and asked for instance how we could set up some sort of royalty or reward system. In other words, if this film went really well, could I in some way have royalties?

但得到的回答清一色是否定的，因为国际合拍合同的复杂性层层嵌套。没人愿意签保证我固定分成的合约，这意味着他们无法与德国或法国的投资方制片人谈判。我真正缺失的是与电影界同行的交流——不像文学界有各种协会和组织。

And the answer across the board has been no because the complexity of international co production contracts is so deeply layered. No one wants to sign a contract that guarantees me a certain percentage of royalties. That will mean they're not able to negotiate a contract with the producer in Germany or France who's going to invest in this. What I haven't had conversations about really is with other people who are in this film business. Unlike the literary world, it doesn't have a sort of associations and groups of people getting together.

比如美国编剧协会，但以我的工作性质无法加入——要成为会员必须只与协会成员合作，而意大利制片公司都不属于美国编剧协会。这正应验了你杰瑞米说的，译者在创作过程中的定位问题。尽管出版社和制片厂都有依赖译者的悠久传统，但译者的角色定位始终是个未解的难题。

There is, for instance, the Screenwriters Guild of America, but it is not something that I can belong to and do what I do because to be a member of the guild, you must work only with other members of the guild, and no Italian production company is a member of the American Screenwriters Guild. So it goes to your point, Jeremy, of where the translator actually sits in the creative process. And I think that even though publishing houses and production houses have long, long traditions and depend on translators, I think the role of the translator is a very unresolved one.

我是说，我觉得我们一直在绕同一个话题，那就是译者在自己的领域里非常孤立。没人真正知道该怎么对待我们。很多时候我们得自力更生。我们必须面面俱到。但我觉得我们还需要指出，并非所有出版商都是平等的。

I mean, I I feel like we've been circling the same subject, which is that translators are very isolated in our own space. No one quite knows what to do with us. We have to fend for ourselves a lot of our times. We have to be all things to all people. But I I think we also need to address the point that not all publishers are equal.

亚当描述的情况确实适用于小型独立出版社。但问题是当我为大型出版社翻译时，报酬并不比独立出版社高多少。实际上，如果报酬区间能更宽泛些，译者作为艺术家就能更像演员那样运作——你可以为独立电影少收些钱，但之后有大制作来弥补差额。对那些事业已发展到有选择余地的演员来说，你可以通过百老汇演出赚固定收入，然后去演你真正喜爱的外百老汇剧目。为什么不能重新协商呢？

So the the case that Adam sketched out is true for an a small independent press. But the thing is when I translate for a large publishing house, the amount I get paid is not significantly more than what I get paid at an independent press. And, actually, if there could be a wider variation in scale, then translators as artists could function more like actors where you do the independent film for less money, but then you have the blockbuster that makes up the difference. For the actors who've reached the stage in the career where they do have these kinds of choices, you do the Broadway show to make a certain amount of money, and then you do the Off Broadway show that you really love. And why cannot renegotiate

我们可以。而且我认为我们需要更擅长此事。只有公开讨论，我们才能进步。我要再次强调学习合同谈判的重要性。在英国，我们有个作家协会为会员提供合同咨询。

these We can. And I think we need to get better at it. And we can only get better at it if we actually put it out in the open. And I go back to the importance of learning how to negotiate contracts. In The UK, we have the Society of Authors that offers contract advice to all of us who are members.

他们教导我们如何谈判，哪些条款困难，哪些不困难，根据培训内容决定哪些可以让步。另外因为翻译协会隶属于作家协会，我们总是能集体反馈需求等信息。我们还有行业交流日，有时能听取出版商意见。但今天我们讨论的层面更高。

They teach us how to negotiate and what is difficult, what is not, what we might want to give away, depending on they do train us up. The other thing is because the Translators Association is inside the Society of Authors, we're always feeding back collectively to the Society of Authors about what our needs are and so on. And we have industry days, which we sometimes hear from publishers and so on. But what we've been doing today is a level above that.

是的。美国也有作者协会提供类似服务，我们尽可能共享信息。我加入的几个群聊里大家都很直言不讳。但问题在于，不能把所有责任都推给译者。我们能力有限。

Yes. And we've got the Authors Guild in The US that provides And a similar we share information as much as we are able to. You know, I'm in several group chats where we are very indiscreet. But the thing is, it can't all be on translators. And there are limitations to what we can do.

作为独立承包商，我们不被允许组织工会或罢工，因为联邦贸易委员会对美国翻译协会监管严厉。由于反垄断法的顾虑，我们在价格信息共享方面也受限。某种程度上我们只能向出版商施压到某个程度，资深译者或许能争取更多。但最终需要出版商和整个行业与我们各退一步。我认为出版商方面也需要加强教育，他们常常不理解译者的需求。

As independent contractors, we are not allowed to unionize and go on strike because the Federal Trade Commission has come down hard on the American Translators Association. There's a limit to how much we can share about pricing information for fear of antitrust legislation and being accused of price fixing. Like at a certain point, we can only push so hard against publishers, and those of us who are a bit more established are maybe able to push harder. But after a certain point, publishers and the rest of the industry have to meet us halfway. I think there's also a certain amount of education that needs to take place on the side of the publishers who often don't understand the needs of translators.

有些出版社给我们的合同根本不适用，他们只是把作者合同里的'作者'全部替换成'译者'。他们对我们实际工作内容和应得报酬认知匮乏。甚至版税预付模式也不适合译者——我们的版税比例太低，要卖出数万本书才能赚回预付金。亚当，出于好奇，你出版的书中译者赚回预付金的有多少本？

Certain presses are applying contracts to us that don't really fit because they are just taking an author's contract and crossing out author and putting translator in every instance. There's a poor understanding of what we actually do and how we should be compensated. I mean, even the royalty and advance model is actually ill suited to translators because our royalties are so much lower that you would have to sell tens of thousands of books to earn out your advance to I mean, Adam, out of curiosity, how many of the books you've published have the translators earned out their advance

实际上，这更多取决于书籍的长度和预付款的金额，而非我们销售的册数。因为你提到的原因，否则就得卖出大量书籍才行。

It actually depends more on the length of the book and so the size of the advance than the number of copies that we sell. Because for exactly that reason that you described that you would otherwise have to sell a lot of books.

只要预付款金额较小，他们确实可以接受。

As long as the advance is smaller, then they can Yeah.

在这些情况下，显然可能性会大得多。

That's in those cases, it's much obviously, more likely.

但你们实际支付了多少版税？有多少译者真正拿到了版税分成？

But how much do you pay out in like, how many of your translators actually earn royalties?

我一时说不上来具体数字，可能只有少数人。但问题在于——我并非想挑起争议——这种情况是否成问题？我是说，未能支付版税是否意味着补偿机制的失败？因为按你的描述，现行机制本应正常运作。

I don't know offhand, but probably only a handful. But the question is well, I guess the question is, and I don't mean this in a controversial way, but is that problematic? I mean, is the is is a failure to pay out royalties a failure of I mean, you're you're describing it as a failure of of the compensation structure because otherwise, it is working as it as it should.

这是激励模式的失败。如果我们仅获得翻译报酬，却被告知'你应该做宣传，应该额外工作，因为书籍畅销后能获得版税'。但大多数书籍永远达不到支付版税的销售门槛。

It's a failure of the incentive model because if we're being paid for the translation and then the argument is, well, you should do this publicity, you should do this extra work because you're getting a royalty if the book sells well. But for most books, we will never sell enough to earn out.

但同理，许多情况下作者获得的预付款也远低于译者。实际上，译者在这个流程中承担的风险最小——除了投入的时间成本外，他们的劳动已获得直接报酬。不过你认为怎样的补偿模式才公平？我个人倾向我提出的反向版税方案。

But for the same reason so for the same reason, though, it's also because the authors are receiving, in many cases, a significantly lower advance than the translator is. Initially, the translator actually takes on the least amount of risk of everyone in this process other than, obviously, the time that they're spending on something, but they're receiving a direct compensation for their labor. But but what do you think is a fair compensation model? I I like my I like my inverted royalties suggestion.

但我认为，如果我们要找到任何解决方案，争论的双方都需要理解对方是如何运作业务的。因为我们实际上都在同一个行业，但沟通不畅。正如你所说，金妮，我们常常因为太客气而不愿谈钱。

But I I also think that if we're going to find any solutions, each side of this argument needs to understand how business is done on the other side. So because we're all actually in the same business, but we don't communicate very well. And as you said, Ginny, we don't often too polite to talk about money.

从译者的角度看，理想的报酬结构是怎样的？然后，亚当，如果你有足够的资金和时间，从出版商的角度看，理想的报酬结构又该是什么样？

What is the ideal compensation structure from the translator's point of view? And then, Adam, if you had money enough and time, what would be the ideal compensation structure from the publisher's point of view?

我的意思是，直截了当的回答是：理想模式是固定费用加上从第一本书销售开始的分成，这样我们知道自己能得到什么。每卖出一本书，我们都能分到一小块蛋糕，真的只是蛋糕屑。但这些碎屑会积少成多。而且我认为我们应该强调，亚当你描述的情况是小出版社的情况。因为我也与大五出版社合作过，我清楚作者们拿到的预付金是多少。

I mean, the straightforward answer is the ideal model is a fee plus a royalty from the first book sold so that we know what we're getting. And with every book that is sold, we get a slice of the pie, a sliver of the pie, really, a crumb of the pie. But those crumbs add up. And I think we should also emphasize that the situation you're describing, Adam, is a small press situation. Because I have done books with the big five, and I have found out what advances the authors are getting.

通常比我得到的报酬高出10倍。仅仅10倍而已。

It is often 10 times more than what I'm getting paid. Only 10 more.

只有10倍？

Only 10?

嗯，是的。没错。是的。

Well Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah.

这也有点意思。我不知道我是否会直接回答你的问题，埃尔韦，我只是在围绕这个话题思考。我在试图理解作者和译者角色的异同之处。我是说，对作者而言，你要考虑作品在市场上的商业可行性，你根据预期销量来支付报酬。

It's also kind of interesting. I don't know if I'm gonna directly answer the question, Herve, but I'm just kind of thinking around the subject. I'm just trying to think of the role of the author and the role of the translator both in the ways that they are similar and the ways that they are different. I mean, for an author, you are thinking about the commercial viability of a work in the marketplace. You're paying for a work based on how well you think that it will sell.

我认为在支付翻译费用方面的一个关键区别在于，真正优秀的翻译与尚可的翻译在销售表现上可能并无差异。从这个角度看，出版商其实也在参与构建一个译者市场。我们一方面努力共同改善译者的工作条件，但另一方面，出版商若有意为之，总能找到要价更低的译者——这与作家艺术创作的独特性截然不同。

And I think one difference in terms of how you're paying for the translation itself is a really good translation is not gonna sell differently from a pretty good translation, perhaps. Perhaps. So in that sense, you are also from a publisher's perspective thinking about a a marketplace of translators too. So we are trying collectively improve the working conditions of translators. And yet also publishers can be in a position if they are so inclined to find a translator who will do that same work for less money, which is not the same case when you're thinking about the artistry of an of an author.

你不可能因为某本书稿费便宜就换本书出版。只有这个特定作品才具备独特的审美价值——天啊我居然用了'产品'这个词，应该说'作品'才对。

You're not gonna do a different book necessarily because you can pay less for it. There is an aesthetic value that only comes with this single product. I can't believe I just said that. Let's say single, not product.

但只有翻译得好，它才具有审美价值。

But it can only be aesthetic if it's translated well.

不，当然。我完全认同这个观点，发自内心地。作为曾以译者身份参与过版权谈判的人，我完全赞同这些主张。即便作为出版商，在选择译者时——说实话我从未刻意寻找报价更低的译者。

No. Of course. I I I say this with truly the the most sincere alignment with that position, truly. I mean, as someone who's also been on the other side of those negotiations as a translator, I totally agree with all those things. And also as a publisher, thinking about which translator I mean, I've never decided to try to find a translator who would work for less.

我想明确指出现象：各家出版社处理翻译版税的方式差异巨大。我很幸运初入行时遇到FSG出版社的乔纳森·加拉西，他明确给予译者版税分成——并非所有出版社都如此。有些大社甚至要求译者与作者协商，让作者从自己版税中分出一部分，这简直是把译者置于对立位置。更令人不安的是，我们还在讨论如何将艺术、美学、思想这些无价之物商品化。

I just wanted to articulate something that I think has been hinted at, but that different presses really handle the whole question of translation and royalty very differently. I feel very lucky that I started my translation career with Jonathan Galassi at For Arstrasse and Giroux, where he said right from the start that he offers translators royalties and that not every press does that. That's not been true with necessarily all other big presses where they said, if you want royalties, you negotiate that with the author who will get a smaller slice of his pie. So putting the translator in a really almost antagonistic situation. I think there's just so much mystery still around this added to the discomfort that we're talking about how we commodify art, beauty, aesthetic, ideas, all of the things that are involved in this.

我认为这始终是个难题——如何用金钱衡量这些无形价值。

And I think that that's a it's always hard to put a dollar value on that.

我挺喜欢杰里米提出的百老汇/外百老汇翻译报酬模式。不过这个模式的前提假设是：某些译作的商业价值确实远高于其他作品。

I was think I like I like Jeremy's Broadway and Off Broadway model of translation compensation. I think the assumption that it's based on though is that there are some translations that are much more commercially viable than than others, which is

确实。但确实存在。

True. But there are.

不。不。

No. No.

当然。当然。我是说，更准确地说，有些出版商比其他出版商更有钱。

Of course. Of course. I mean, it's more that there are some publishers that have more money than others.

但是，但是还有...是的。有畅销书。但是，而且它们...是的。

But but there's also the yeah. There are bestsellers. But And they're yeah.

那些出版商不太可能愿意承担那些书籍带来的风险。他们需要那些书能卖出更高的销量，要有更大的把握才行。至少独立出版商的特点是，他们能够承受某种风险，因为他们的很多成本要低得多等等。所以在某种程度上，就像外百老汇和百老汇之间的那种区别，这种界限有些模糊了。

Those publishers are less likely to be comfortable with the risk that they would take on those books. They would need for those books to sell, you know, that much higher and to have that much more of a guarantee that it can. The thing about independent publishers at least is that they are able to tolerate a certain kind of risk because, you know, a lot of their costs are much lower and all of these things. And so in some ways, like the potential for that distinction between Off Broadway and Broadway, it collapses somewhat.

不过，这不是一个类型问题吗？比如，我们能不能多创作一些北欧黑色小说类型，然后它们就成了畅销书？这样能赚更多钱，但封面上不署你的名字，这样在机场买书的人就不会因为是一本翻译书而却步。然后独立出版商就可以一直做正确的事？

Isn't it a genre question, though? Like, couldn't we just generate more Scandinavian noir genres and then those become the blockbusters? You get more money for them, but your name isn't on the cover so that people buying them in airports aren't scared off by a book in translation. And then the indies get to do the right thing all the way down?

是的。是的。我是说，我认为这也涉及到我们昨天谈到的关于翻译作为一种类型的错觉。我认为至少在美国市场——也就是我工作的市场——可能对此不太友好，因为这个市场已经被用英语原创的类型小说饱和了，他们不需要翻译商业小说或浪漫奇幻小说，这些可能就是我们所说的好莱坞独立电影部门那种类型。

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think this gets also to what we were talking about yesterday about the illusion of translation as a genre. And I think that it's possible that The US market at least, which is the one that I work in, is somewhat less hospitable to this because the market is so saturated with genres that are written originally in English and that they don't need to translate commercial fiction or romantasy, which might be the kind of the the Hollywood indie movie division that we're that we're talking to.

我认为，针对那些无解的问题展开讨论确实很有意义。要知道，我在国际范围内参与这类对话已有二十年之久，但从未经历过这样的讨论。虽然我们无法解决问题，但这却是我第一次全面审视我们共同面临的困境。不过我有个计划：我们译者要组建一个集体，然后大量创作僵尸题材小说——这类作品肯定能赚大钱。

Well, I think it's really good to start a conversation about problems for which there are no solutions. You know, I have been involved in with twenty years' worth of conversations about these things internationally. I've never had a conversation like this. And we can't solve the problem, but it's the first time I'm seeing all of our problems together But as a I do have a plan for us, which is we translators are going to start a collective. And then we are going to write a lot of zombie fiction, which is going to make a lot of money.

我们打算用这笔资金作为支持自己和其他许多人的基金。

And then we were going to use that as a kind of a fund to support us and a lot of other people.

老实说，任何颠覆性的解决方案都会很棒。虽然我的语言组合市场需求不大，但我的主要收入仍来自文学翻译。为此我不断推销自己、主动开拓工作机会、从不休假甚至牺牲睡眠——这显然不可持续。问题在于：像我这样相对资深的译者，每年持续翻译三四本书，难道不该获得体面收入吗？现实情况恰恰反映了这个行业可持续发展的困境。

I mean, that would be honestly, any kind of disruptive solution would be great, because I am someone who makes the majority of my income from literary translation, even though my language pair isn't particularly in demand. And I do this by pitching a lot and generating a lot of my own work and also never taking a day off and not sleeping. And that's not really sustainable. So the question is, for someone like me who is relatively established and working constantly and translating three to four books a year, should I not be making a viable living? And the fact that I am not quite suggests a problem with sustainability in the industry.

不能只依赖有额外收入来源的人。但必须说这次讨论极具启发性，我建议建个群聊继续深入交流。

It can't just be people with outside sources of income. But I will say that this conversation has been hugely generative, and I'm going to suggest we start a group chat and continue it.

我想特别指出，二十五年前在此地开展的讨论与过去两天的对话存在惊人的本质差异。感谢各位精彩绝伦的参与——你们时而热情洋溢，时而敞开心扉。衷心感谢大家。您正在收听的是《评论家与她的公众》栏目推出的霍桑顿科莫对话会。

I will also just point out that I think there are truly incredible meaningful differences between the way this conversation unfolded twenty five years ago in this place and the way that it has unfolded over the past two days. I want to thank all of you for being such wonderful, wonderful, enthusiastic and at times vulnerable participants. I really appreciate it. So thank you all of you. You've been listening to Hawthorndon's Como Conversazione from The Critic and Her Publix.

我是玛尔格·埃姆雷，感谢霍桑顿基金会的工作人员——该基金会是英美文学艺术领域最大的资助方之一。同时感谢卫斯理安大学夏皮罗中心及校长办公室、《纽约书评》、文学网站LitHub。感谢制作人米娅·福斯特和扎卡里·法恩，杰出编辑米歇尔·摩西，以及丹妮·伦科尼的配乐。感谢您的收听。我们将在明年一月携《评论家与她的公众》第四季回归，届时将聚焦访谈艺术的对话。

I'm Marga Emre, and I'd like to thank the staff at the Hawthorndon Foundation, which is one of the largest funders of the literary arts in The US and UK. Thank you also to the Shapiro Center and the President's Office at Wesleyan University, the New York Review of Books, and LitHub. Thank you to our producers, Mia Foster and Zachary Fine, to our wonderful editor, Michelle Moses, and to Dani Lencioni for her score. Thank you for listening. We'll be back in January with the fourth season of The Critic and Her Publics, which will feature conversations on the art of the interview.