总统专访

我理解的意思是，嘿。

way I read it was, hey.

我一生都是房地产开发商，我知道拥有比租赁能带来更多的控制权。

I spent my life as a real estate developer, and I know that you have way more control if you own than if you lease.

嗯哼。

Mhmm.

但这也意味着我根本不相信依赖联盟。

But that also means I fundamentally don't believe in relying on alliances.

而丹麦这个事实

And the fact that Denmark

北约的一个成员国。

A member of NATO.

北约的一个成员国，基本上控制并保护着格陵兰岛，对他来说有一个盟友还不够，他必须亲自来做这件事。

A member of NATO, which basically controls and protects Greenland, it's not enough for him to have an ally that he's gotta do it himself.

现在你可以问问自己，这种逻辑的终点在哪里？

Now you can ask yourself, where does that logic end?

对。

Right.

这会以中国吞并台湾告终吗？

Does it end with China taking over Taiwan?

这会以俄罗斯吞并乌克兰告终吗？

Does it end with Russia taking over Ukraine?

这会以美国要求其势力范围不止于格陵兰为止吗？

Does it end with The United States demanding that it doesn't stop at Greenland?

也许我们还需要冰岛。

Maybe we need Iceland as well.

所以，

So,

大卫，根据总统关于美国海外使用武力，特别是海外使用军事力量的言论，你在采访这部分结束时有什么想法？

David, based on how the president talked about the use of American power overseas, and especially the use of American military power overseas, What were you left thinking by the end of this part of the interview?

我最后觉得，总统觉得自己不受法律、惯例或美国在二战结束后为世界建立的体系的约束，当时世界刚经历两次可怕的

I was left thinking that the president feels himself unconstrained by law, convention, or the systems that The United States itself built at the end of World War two after the world had gone through two horrific

北约和整个国际法体系。

NATO and the entire system of international law.

没错。

That's right.

但与此同时，他也不是好战分子。

But at the same time, that he's not a warmonger.

对吧？

Right?

他确实想要那个和平奖。

He actually does want that peace prize.

他希望被公认为一位和平的总统。

He does wanna be known as a president of peace.

然而，当他在漫长、缓慢、乏味的外交与特种部队破门而入的快速行动之间做出选择时，他会选择特种部队。

And yet when he's given the choice between long, slow, boring diplomacy and quick action by special operations breaking down doors, he'll go for the special operators.

你所描述的是一系列非凡的矛盾，即使对于唐纳德·特朗普来说也是如此。

What you're describing is a set of extraordinary contradictions, even for Donald Trump.

当然。

Absolutely.

这正是报道特朗普总统任期时既令人抓狂又引人入胜的地方，因为你无法将他归入任何简单的理论框架。

And that is what is both maddening and fascinating about covering the Trump presidency because you're not going to fit this man into some simple set of theories.

他是一堆矛盾的集合体。

He is a bundle of contradictions.

好了，大卫，广告后我们将转向国内事务中类似的矛盾组合。

Well, David, after the break, we are gonna turn to a similar bundle of contradictions when it comes to domestic affairs.

我们马上回来。

We'll be right back.

嗨。

Hi.

我是克莱尔·坦尼斯凯特。

I'm Claire Tennisketter.

我是《每日新闻》每周字幕名单中众多名字之一。

I'm one of the many names you hear in the list of credits on The Daily every week.

作为制作人，我工作的重要一部分是与同事、《纽约时报》的记者交流，获取他们对新闻的专业见解。

A big part of my job as a producer is talking to my colleagues, to New York Times reporters, to get their expertise on the news.

但我们也希望探索新闻背后的人性层面。

But we also wanna explore the human side of the news.

因此，我工作的另一大组成部分是与人们交谈，了解他们如何体验世界正在发生的事情。

And so another big part of my job is talking to people about how they're experiencing what's happening in the world.

这可能意味着走上街头与陌生人交谈、打陌生电话，甚至花数月时间确保我们全面呈现故事的各个角度。

That can mean walking up to people on the street, making cold calls, and spending months making sure we represent all sides of the story.

无论话题是塑造我们政治身份的因素，还是我们如何应对危机，我们总能从这些对话中学到一些东西。

Whether it's about what shapes our political identities or how we're coping with crises, we always feel like there's something to learn from these conversations.

我们经常收到听众反馈，说正是这类故事让《每日新闻》与众不同，我们希望继续为您带来这样的内容。

We often hear from listeners that these types of stories are what makes The Daily special, and we want to keep bringing them to you.

没有订阅者的支持，我们无法做到这一点。

We can't do that without subscriber support.

如果您尚未订阅《纽约时报》，可以前往 nytimes.com/subscribe 进行订阅。

If you haven't subscribed to The New York Times, you can do that at nytimes.com/subscribe.

谢谢。

And thanks.

如果他们让我们顺利进行，那真是太好了。

Very good on behalf of both of them if they got us

我想确保我们也有时间讨论国内政策。

I wanna make sure we have time for domestic policy too.

嗯。

Yeah.

今天，移民与海关执法局开枪打死了一名美国公民，根据初步报道，情况属实。

ICE did shoot and kill an American citizen today Good according to early reports.

大卫，跟我们说说你们四个人与总统讨论国内问题的对话。

David, tell us about the conversation that the four of you had with the president about domestic issues.

嗯，佐兰首先提出了关于我们几个小时前刚在明尼阿波利斯目睹的可怕场景的问题。

Well, Zoland kicked it off with questions about this horrifying scene we had all just seen play out in Minneapolis just hours before.

我们也看到抗议者遭遇了暴力手段和胡椒喷雾。

We have also seen protesters met with violent tactics and pepper spray.

在某些情况下，美国公民也被错误拘留。

In some cases, American citizens have also been wrongfully detained.

这些事件或手段是否让你觉得移民与海关执法局做得过头了？

Do any of these incidents or tactics make you think ICE has gone too far?

我认为移民与海关执法局一直受到不公正的对待。

Well, I think that ICE has been treated very badly.

别忘了，移民与海关执法局已经驱逐了成千上万的杀人犯和谋杀犯。

Don't forget, ICE has gotten rid of thousands and thousands of killers, murderers.

他们还驱逐了在拜登政府时期愚蠢地被允许进入我们国家的成千上万人。

They've gotten rid of, thousands of people that were let into our country during the Biden administration so stupidly.

他们

They're

非常 关于

very What about

那坨屎？

the shit?

勇敢，非常

Brave, very

今天一名聪明的公民被枪击了。

smart citizen was shot today.

没错。

That's right.

那么，是否

Well Does

这让你感到不舒服吗？

this make you uncomfortable?

嗯，所有事情都让我感到不舒服。

Well, I everything makes me uncomfortable.

我希望没人被枪击。

I wanna see nobody get shot.

我也希望没人尖叫着试图冲撞警察，或者使用钝器攻击。

I wanna see nobody screaming and trying to run over policemen either, or, you know, blunt force.

由当地官员在

By local officials in the

好吧，如果你看一下录像，我看了和你一定看过的同一段录像。

Well, if you take a look at the tape, I saw the same tape that you must have seen.

我只是看了它。

I just saw it.

有几个。

There were several.

它有多个角度。

There were several angles on it.

好吧，我知道，但如果你看一下那段录像，那是一场恶劣的事件。

Well, I know, but if you take a look at that, that was a vicious situation that took place.

如果你往前看，在我看来，那个尖叫的女人，她喊着‘丢脸，丢脸，丢脸’，这并不正常。

And if you go before that, and in my opinion, the the screamer, that woman that was screaming shame, shame, shame, that's not normal.

那是一个经过排练、有备而来的专业煽动者。

That was a practiced, rehearsed, professional agitator.

即便如此，对某人向车辆开火这样的行为，是否属于适当的执法手段？

Even so, are those appropriate policing tactics for somebody to fire into a vehicle like that?

在你看来，这是否是

In your mind, is that something

碾过他们。

ran them over.

我的意思是，他们冲了过去，而特朗普

I mean, they ran And Trump

只是下意识地为警察辩护，并声称司机撞到了其中一人。

just sort of reflexively defended the officers and claimed that the driver had run over one of them.

她会，而且任何事情都可能

She would And anything could

我们都看过这个视频，而且

We had all seen this video and

对。

Right.

立即介入并质疑这一说法。

Immediately sort of stepped in to challenge the account.

试图把他逼停。

Tried to run him off.

会

Would

看起来他并没有被碾压。

didn't look like he was he was run over.

我现在就放给你看录像。

Well, I'd play the tape for you right now.

你不想直接放出来吗？

Do you wanna just whip it out?

在我看来非常糟糕。

Look to me to be very bad.

我已经把录像放出去了。

I've I've just put out the tape.

于是特朗普说，那我们一起来看吧。

And so Trump said, well, let's just watch it together.

但我不喜欢这个事实

But I don't like the fact

令我们惊讶的是，事情果然就是这样发生的。

And to our surprise, that's exactly what happened.

这里的人们。

People here.

但有没有人

But have any of

你们有没有觉得这些手段让你们感到不适？

you Show that show that these tactics made you uncomfortable?

你知道，你们这里也曾有公民被错误拘留。

You know, you've had citizens that have also been wrongfully detained here.

是的。

Yeah.

我们看过这个了。

We've seen that one.

我们看过

We've seen

那个视频。

that video.

嗯。

Yeah.

嗯。

Yeah.

我们看过一个

We've seen One

他的一个助手带来了一台笔记本电脑，将录像慢放了。

of his aides brought over a laptop, slowed down a a version of the tape.

看起来那位移民与海关执法局官员并没有被撞倒。

Does not look like the ICE officer has been run over there.

然后也许从另一个角度，我们

And then maybe from a different angle, we

会看到。

would see.

在我看来，当然。

The way I look at it is sure.

如果你看那个的话。

If you look at that.

那是一幅可怕的场景。

It's a terrible scene.

是的。

Yeah.

我们都同意

We all agree

这一点。

on that.

你说看这个很可怕。

You say it's horrible to watch.

你曾说过这是事实

You said that on truth

到目前为止。

so far.

但你认为这种说法——我讨厌看到它——是不是太过分了？

But do you think that goes I hate to see it.

太过分了。

Too far.

这在某种程度上是一种对总统进行实时事实核查的奇怪方式，很明显，总统对他笔记本电脑上看到的内容并不完全自在，嗯。

It was sort of a strange form of real time fact checking of the president with it clear that the president wasn't entirely comfortable with what he was seeing on that laptop Mhmm.

或者这些移民与海关执法局的特工

Or what these ICE agents

在做什么。

were doing.

所以让我们退一步来看，因为这一点

So just take a step back here because this

然后从那里，佐兰德，总统转向了另一个话题，讨论总统移民限制政策的真实目的以及它们应该针对哪些人。

And then from there, Zolland, the president, sort of turned to a a different topic about what the real aim of the president's immigration restrictions are and who they're supposed to target.

你的政府还暗示，一些归化公民可能会被剥夺公民身份。

Your administration has also suggested that some people who are naturalized citizens could see their citizenship strict.

你认为哪些群体应该失去公民身份？

Which groups do you think should lose citizenship?

说实话，我认为索马里一团糟。

Well, I think Somalia is a disaster, to be honest with you.

我看看明尼苏达州发生的事，再看看这个国家，它是世界上最糟糕的国家之一。

I look at what's happening in Minnesota, and, you look at this country, it's one of the worst in the world.

它被公认为世界上最腐败、最残忍、最暴力的国家之一。

It's acknowledged to be truly one of the most corrupt, one of the most vicious, violent countries in the world.

甚至连船只，他们都会袭击。

Even the ships, they go after the ships.

他们现在不这么做了，因为如果他们针对船只，你知道会怎样吗？

They don't do that anymore because if they go after the ships, you know what?

他们会遭到我们用来打击毒贩的同一枚导弹的打击。

They get hit by the same missile that we hit the drug dealers

你会剥夺他们的国籍吗？

is would you strip them of their national

如果他们活该被剥夺，我会这么做。

If they deserve to be stripped, I would.

是的。

Yeah.

那么，你的标准是什么？

So what would the criteria you

我们现在正在审视一些标准。

Well, we're looking at criteria right now.

但如果他们活该被剥夺，大卫，我会毫不犹豫地这么做。

But if they deserve to be stripped, David, I'd do it in a heartbeat.

是的。

Yeah.

你不觉得你对索马里裔人群的评论，是对本国公民一概而论吗？

You don't think that your comments about those of Somali descent have painted a broad brush on your own citizens?

我不在乎。

I don't care.

我希望这个国家拥有优秀的人才。

I want great people in this country.

我希望人们热爱这个国家，我认为许多从索马里来的人，他们憎恨我们的国家。

I want people that love the country, and I think that, many of the people that came in from Somalia, they hate our country.

他们来到这里，不仅憎恨我们的国家，还掠夺了我们的国家。

They came and they've and not only do they hate our country, they've ripped off our country.

他们掠夺了我们的国家。

They've ripped it off.

他们偷走了数十亿美元。

They've stolen billions of dollars.

这令人震惊。

It's shocking.

他们来自的地方一无所有。

From where they came, they had nothing.

他们来到这里后却偷窃。

And they come here and they steal.

这不仅让明尼苏达州人民和我们国家的人民感到羞耻，在你看来，竟然允许他们这样做。

And it's an embarrassment to the intelligence of the people of Minnesota and to the people of our country In your view that that they would be allowed to do it.

我听过很多人说这是对整个群体的刻板印象，但我曾

I I I've heard many people that say this is generalizing a population Well, I've

见过并发现这些，你怎么叫都行。

seen and find these you call it whatever you want.

但我想问，你的移民议程是否也旨在改变这个国家的种族构成。

But I wanna ask if part of your immigration agenda is also aimed at changing the racial makeup of this country.

不。

No.

完全不是。

Not at all.

这个议程是否部分旨在

Is is part of this this agenda aimed

我只是想要那些热爱我们国家的人。

at I just want people that love our country.

这是

It's

很简单。

very simple.

我想要那些热爱我们国家的人。

I want people that love our country.

我想要那些尊重我们国家、尊重我们国家法律的人。

I want people that respect our country, respect the laws of our country.

我还想要那些能够融入我们国家的人。

And, I want people that can embrace our country.

因为你一直排斥所有难民。

Because you've you've shunned the border all refugees.

让美国再次伟大。

Can make America great again.

你有交通禁令

You have a traffic ban

针对大多数非洲移民。

on the majority African immigrants.

提出了一个有趣的观点。

Raises an interesting point.

目前唯一能入境的移民是白人南非人。

The the only immigrants who can come in right now are white South Africans.

对吧？

Right?

难民。

Refugees.

难民的方式

The way of of refugees

嗯，我还没见过这种情况。

Well, I haven't seen that.

我的意思是，我确实没见过这种情况。

I mean, I certainly haven't seen that.

但多年来，情况恰恰与此完全相反，非常非常相反。

But over the years, it's been very much the opposite of the Very, very much the opposite of that.

人们正在涌入我们的国家。

People are coming into our country.

没有人是基于种族来做的。

Nobody's doing it based on race.

特朗普向你们所有人声称，他的移民限制与种族无关。

Trump is positing to you all that his immigration restrictions are not about race.

它们并非有意针对种族。

They're not intentionally about race.

而现实是，他们只允许极少数有色人种进入该国，目前被禁止进入美国的人几乎全部来自人口以黑人和棕色人种为主的国家。

When the reality is that they are allowing for very few people of color to enter the country, the people who are banned from entering The US right now, and there are bans on a lot of countries, they are almost uniformly from countries where the populations are black and brown.

他所允许进入的极少数人都是白人。

The very few people he is letting in are white.

这种模式变得难以忽视。

The pattern becomes difficult to ignore.

确实如此。

It sure does.

而且你看。

And look.

他说他只希望那些热爱这个国家的人能够进入。

He says he just wants people who love this country to be allowed in.

但我们逐渐了解到，他基本上只希望偏袒白人南非人，正如我之前向他指出的那样，

But what we're learning is he basically only wants to favor white South Africans, as I raised with him,

或者

or

他最希望引进的移民是那些拥有能帮助我们经济的特殊技能的人。

the immigrants he wants the most are those who bring special skills that can help our economy.

而这是一群非常有限的人。

And, that's a a very select group.

你认为某些行业仍然需要移民劳工吗？

Do you think some industries still need immigrant labor?

是的。

Yes.

哪些行业？

Which ones?

他们需要廉价的劳动力。

They need inexpensive.

但这是两回事。

Well, they're different things.

我们需要人们前来。

We need people to come in.

只是为了让你明白一点，我完全支持人们合法通过边境进入我们的国家。

Just so you understand something, I'm all for people coming into our country through the border legally.

如果他们合法入境，我比他们想要我、比他们想要这个国家更希望他们来。

If they come in legally, I want them more than they want me and more than they want this country.

如果你看看我的第一个任期，再看看本届任期，我们需要人才。

And if you look at my first term and if you look at this term, I want we need people.

我们正在全国范围内建设工厂。

We're building factories all over the country.

我们正在建

We're build

你说过

You said

农业，是的。

agriculture and Yeah.

我希望他们能合法入境，并受到保护。

To be protected by I want them to come in legally.

但你说过，对于农业和酒店业，你希望移民与海关执法局能酌情处理。

But you said agriculture and hotels that you wanted ICE to use common sense against them.

对吧？

Right?

我希望他们能

I want them to

酌情处理。

use common sense.

你是否指示移民与海关执法局放宽对这些行业的遣返？

Have you directed ICE to ease deportations against those industries?

是的。

Yes.

我有。

I am.

你还指示移民与海关执法局对其他行业采取类似措施吗？

Are there other industries that you've directed ICE?

因为我关注农民，和农民打交道，我希望90%以上的农民都能留下来。

Because I watch farmers and I deal with farmers and I want 90% of the farmers more than that.

他们是很好的人，他们雇用的员工也非常优秀，很多人已经为他们工作了二十五年。

And they're great people, and they have great people working for them who have been working for them for twenty five years.

他们几乎就像家人一样。

They're almost like a member of the family.

还有其他行业吗

Are there other industries that

被驱逐出这个国家。

you're thrown out of the country.

还有其他行业或公司，你指示移民局减轻遣返力度了吗？

Are there other industries or companies that you directed ICE to ease deportations on?

没有。

No.

韩国政府。

The South Korean state.

一些服务业。

Some some service industries.

我给你举个例子。

Some I'll give you an example.

在佐治亚州，他们与韩国合作生产电池。

In Georgia with South Korea, they make batteries.

电池制造非常复杂，而且非常危险，但他们还是生产了。

Batteries are very complex and they're very dangerous to make, and they make them.

他们引进了三四百人

And they brought in three or 400 people

专门从事这一领域的所有人。

who specialize in this them all.

他们把这些人驱逐出境，我对此非常愤怒。

And they threw them out, and I was very angry about it.

你知道为什么吗？

You know why?

因为他们必须开设一家工厂，你不能随便从街上拉一个人，他从未见过电池，就指望他能制造出如此复杂的电池。

Because they have to open a factory, and you can't take a person off the street who's never seen a battery before and think that they're gonna make highly complex batteries.

他

He

实际上，他下令对佐治亚州的现代工厂进行了移民局突袭，驱逐了大批在那里筹建汽车电池工厂的韩国工人。

actually invoked the ICE raid on that Hyundai plant in Georgia where they deported a whole bunch of South Korean workers who were there setting up a a car battery factory.

你必须允许他们带一些专家过来，否则他们永远无法顺利投产。

You have to allow them to bring some of their experts with them, or they're never gonna be able to open their plant to effect.

听起来你对移民局对现代工厂的突袭感到愤怒。

It sounds like you were angry at at ICE for this raid on the Hyundai facility.

我对这件事并不高兴。

I was not happy about it.

不高兴。

Nope.

我对这件事并不高兴。

I was not happy about it.

他们在生产电池。

They're making batteries.

电池非常危险，而且极其复杂，他们带来了会制造电池的人。

Batteries are very dangerous and actually very complex, and they brought people that make batteries.

这些人都会培训我们的员工如何制造电池，最终他们会回国，因为他们想回到自己的国家。

And those people would have trained our people how to make batteries, and at some point, they would have gone back because they wanna go back to their country.

他们可能不会

They might not

所以，在特朗普的说法中，我注意到，相当多的美国工人可能并不具备他目前优先发展的那种高度技术性制造工作的资格。

So in Trump's telling here, and I was struck by this, that a fair number of American workers just may not be qualified to do the kind of highly technical manufacturing that he's prioritizing right now.

比如，你知道的，汽车电池。

Something like, you know, car batteries.

有趣的是，特朗普总统的竞选口号是铭记被遗忘的美国。

And what's interesting about that, of course, is, you know, president Trump runs on a message of remembering forgotten America.

蓝领工人阶级美国人，许多曾经在制造业工作，如今在新经济中需要工作。

The blue collar working class Americans, you know, many of whom used to be in the manufacturing sector who need jobs now in the new economy.

他有点在说，咱们坦诚点吧。

And he's kinda saying, let's be honest.

很多这些人，他们干不了这种工作。

A lot of those people, they can't do this work.

嗯，

Well,

我认为他想说的是，他们一开始肯定干不了。

I think what he's saying is they certainly can't do it at the beginning.

他们不能只是

They can't just

移民可以。

Immigrants can.

没错。

That's right.

你不能随便建个汽车电池工厂就指望它立刻运转起来

That you can't just drop a car battery factory and expect it to be up and running

对。

Right.

如果没有他们所需的技工帮助来让工厂运转起来，美国工人是不会跟上的，直到那时才行。

Without the help of the technical workers that they need to get it up and running and the American workers aren't going to catch on until that happens.

说实话，我真希望能制定出一套对所有人都有效的移民政策。

To be honest, I'd love to be able to create an immigration policy that works for everyone.

你想要一项全面的移民政策吗？

You like a comprehensive immigration policy?

如果可能的话，我非常愿意去做。

I would love to do it if it was possible.

国会愿意这么做吗？

Is congress willing to go do that?

乔治·布什试过。

George Bush tried.

如果民主党愿意做，我也会做。

If the Democrats would do it, I'd do it.

我非常希望有一项全面的移民政策，真正有效的政策。

I'd love to have a comprehensive immigration policy, something that really worked.

是时候让国家拥有

It's about time for the country to have

那会是什么样子？

What would that look like?

抱歉？

Excuse me?

什么是全面的

What would a comprehensive

我不想深入讨论，因为这是一个非常敏感的话题，但我相信存在一个能让所有人都受益的方案。

I don't wanna go into that because it's a very it's a very ticklish subject, but I believe that there is a plan that can work for everybody.

大卫，你是否和我一样，对总统突然对全面移民改革表现出热情感到惊讶？

David, I wonder if you were as surprised as I was in listening to this interview by the president's sudden enthusiasm for something like comprehensive immigration reform.

我相信你和我一样记得很清楚。

I'm sure you remember this as well as I do.

全面移民改革是一个词，如果共和党人提起，他们会陷入巨大的麻烦，因为它几乎总是意味着要为那些非法居留的人建立一条合法途径。

Comprehensive immigration reform is a word that if a Republican invokes, they are in big, big trouble, because it almost always implies that you're gonna create a legal path for those here illegally.

这就是移民改革中的‘全面’部分。

That's the comprehensive part of immigration reform.

过去，特朗普总统一直试图扼杀任何形式的全面移民改革。

In the past, President Trump has sought to kill any form of comprehensive immigration reform.

而突然间，他却说：我想要这个？

And suddenly, he's saying, I want this?

你知道吗，迈克尔，听到特朗普总统重新讨论这个问题时，我坐在那里想，他的核心支持者会如何反应？

You know, Michael, to hear president Trump come back and discuss this, I was sitting there thinking, how is his own base going to go react to this?

因为，没错，核心内容是为至少一部分人提供获得公民身份的途径。

Because, yes, the core of it is you do find a pathway for at least some to get to citizenship.

我不确定当前的特朗普支持者是否已经准备好接受这一点。

And I'm not sure the current Trump base is ready for that.

我们能继续谈下一个话题吗？

Can we move on to

经济呢？

the economy?

我想问问你，最近共和党的民调专家警告说，你和你的政党正在失去年轻选民的支持，尤其是那些担心就业前景上升的年轻男性。

I would like to ask you about, Republican pollsters lately are warning that you and the party are is losing ground with young voters, particularly young men who are concerned with job prospects of rising

TikTok的事情？

the TikTok, thing?

但你会对那些年轻的

But what would you say to those young

选民，年轻的男性说什么？

voters, young men?

听好了。

Look.

这些民调就像编剧操控的一样是假的。

The polls are rigged just like the writers do.

这些共和党的民调专家警告你的政党，你做得还不够

These are Republican pollsters who are warning your party that you are not doing enough

专注于他们自己的工作。

to focus on their own jobs.

我不能告诉你。

I can't tell you.

我觉得我非常受欢迎。

I think I'm very popular.

这刚刚从TikTok上出来。

This just came out from TikTok.

最近刚有消息说，唐纳德·特朗普在TikTok上排名第一，是最受欢迎的人，你可以说

It came out just recently that Donald Trump was number one on TikTok and the most popular person, you can

拥有这些。

have these.

大卫，关于经济问题，总统非常坚决地否定了这个观点——我们在一次又一次的民调中，以及去年中期选举的结果中都发现，选民——包括许多共和党选民——持续对经济感到焦虑，认为他对此关注不够。

David, on the economy, the president pretty forcefully waves off the idea, which we keep finding in poll after poll, and in election results from the last off year election that voters, including many Republican voters, are persistently feeling anxious about the economy, and they don't think he is focused enough on it.

我们一直试图引导他回到这个问题上，希望他能考虑普通美国人的经济焦虑。

You know, we kept trying to steer him back to this to try to get him to think about the economic anxieties of ordinary Americans.

总统先生，这么多选民因为经济问题投了您的票，我认为凯蒂只是想

Mister president, so many voters voted for you because of the economy, and I think Katie just want to get

让开。

out of way.

可能是看起来最好的状态。

Is probably the best it's look.

现在的经济状况，我带来了数万亿美元的资金流入这个经济，远超任何国家以往的水平。

The economy right now, I have trillions and trillions of dollars coming into this economy more than any nation has ever had by far.

我们的经济简直不可思议，而且我正在降低物价。

Our economy is unbelievable, and I'm bringing down the prices.

记住，高物价不是我造成的。

Remember this, I didn't cause the high prices.

是拜登造成的。

Biden did.

说什么？

Do say?

等一下。

Wait a minute.

等等。

Wait.

等等。

Wait.

等等。

Wait.

等一秒。

One second.

我一团糟。

I a mess.

听好了。

Listen.

我继承了一团糟。

I inherited a mess.

我继承了一个严重膨胀、管理糟糕的国家。

I inherited a highly inflated, horribly run country.

边境状况很糟糕。

The borders were bad.

军队状况很糟糕。

The military was bad.

阿富汗问题是我们国家历史上最糟糕的一天。

The Afghanistan was the worst worst day in the history of our country.

我认为那是最低谷。

Maybe in the I think it was the lowest point.

你知道吗？

Do you know what?

那就是最低谷，而我们现在可能正处于最高点。

That was the lowest point, and we may right now be at the highest point.

有一些积极的迹象，而且

There are good signs, and

经济正在增长。

the the economy is growing.

工资跟上了通胀，但还有其他指标显示人们正在受苦。

Wages are keeping up with inflation, but there are other indicators that people are are hurting.

高收入者，他们占高收入群体的10%。

High earners, they're 10% of high earners.

他们赚取

They make

贡献了经济增速的一半。

up for half the economy growth.

我之所以说他们受苦，是因为拜登。

I'm bringing they're hurting because of Biden.

我之所以说

I'm bringing

他们加入进来。

them in.

没有受苦。

Are not hurting.

是低收入者。

It's the low earners.

是中等收入者。

It's the middle earners.

是那些人

It's the people

你承诺要帮助的人。

that you promised to help.

你对他们说什么？

What do you say to them?

看看我的成就，从百分比来看，我第一任期内经济的最大受益者是低收入工人。

Look at my achievements, the greatest, percentage wise, the greatest beneficiaries of my economy in my first term were low income workers.

而目前的情况是，蓝领工人的表现比其他任何群体都更好，按比例衡量也是如此。

And it's turning out to be, right now, blue collar workers are doing better than anybody else percentage wise as they measure that.

我接手的是一团糟。

I inherited a mess.

当时物价很高。

It was high prices.

当时通货膨胀严重。

It was high inflation.

当时犯罪率很高。

It was high crime.

你知道吗？谋杀案达到了有史以来最低水平。

You know, did you see where murders are the lowest they've ever been?

你注意到犯罪率已经降到历史最低点了么？

Did you see where crime is at the lowest point it's ever been?

你知道为什么吗？

You know why?

因为他们关闭了边境，我们不再有罪犯涌入我们的国家。

Because they closed the border, and we don't have criminals pouring into our country.

总统先生，您能再多谈一点经济问题吗？

Mister president, do you a few more on the economy.

您是否在告诉美国民众，他们必须再等一段时间，尤其是低收入和中等收入的美国人？

Do you think, are you basically telling Americans that they have to wait a little bit longer, particularly low and middle income Americans?

是的。

Yeah.

我无法立即修复他们在四年里造成的破坏。

It doesn't I can't fix what they destroyed in four years immediately.

但如果你看一下，我的投资收入比任何总统、任何国家历史上都多。

But if you look at it, I have more investment income coming in than any president than any country has ever had.

我所做的是

What I've done I

在这次对话中，人们明显感受到总统似乎与当前美国的经济困境脱节。

mean, it felt in these exchanges that this concept of the president as insulated from the American economic challenges of this moment was very vividly on display.

你感觉不到他对那些担心经济的人有任何同情。

And you don't sense that he is empathetic to those who are worried about the economy.

事实上，他几乎否定了经济存在问题的前提。

In fact, he kind of disputes the premise that there is anything wrong with the economy.

没错。

That's right.

或者认为人工智能等新技术会带来更多的经济焦虑。

Or that new technology like artificial intelligence would bring about more economic anxiety.

总统先生，关于人工智能，许多美国人担心AI会夺走他们的工作，他们将无法

Mister president, just on AI, there are many Americans who are concerned that AI is gonna take their jobs and they will not will be

失业，我认为恰恰相反。

out of I think just the opposite.

我认为人工智能将成为一个巨大的就业创造者。

I think AI is gonna be a tremendous job producer.

我认为我们有这么多的工作岗位。

I think that we have so many jobs.

我最大的问题不是抢走工作，而是我们没有足够的人来填补这些岗位，这就是机器人发挥作用的地方。

My biggest problem isn't taking the jobs is that we don't have enough people to fill the jobs, and that's where robots come in.

但你并没有

But you don't have

所以我认为，你必须自己得出结论：这次采访中是否有任何内容能让普通美国人对超市价格、紧缩的就业市场，以及这种新且略显可怕的技术所带来的焦虑感感到安心？这种技术的影响是我们所有人都无法预测的。

And so I I think you've gotta come to your own conclusion about whether or not there's anything in this interview that would make an ordinary American feel better about supermarket prices or tightening job market or the anxieties that come from the arrival of a new and somewhat terrifying new technology that's going to have effects that none of us can predict.

那么，大卫，这次采访最终是如何结束的？

So, David, how does this interview ultimately come to an end?

嗯，

Well,

总统有一些东西想让我们看。

the president had stuff he wanted us to see.

这些都是斯卡维诺团队要求总统签署的两项人事任命。

These are two personnel actions that Scavino's team asked the president to

哦，我两秒钟内就签。

Oh, I'll sign it in two seconds.

对不起，先生。

I'm sorry, sir.

做这件事重要得多。

This is a much more important thing to do.

所以，这里就是宴会厅。

So this is the ballroom right here.

真漂亮。

It's beautiful.

人们都很喜欢。

People love it.

经过近两个小时的交谈，他站起身，开始指着从白宫地库中取出并挂起来的画作。

And after nearly two hours of conversation, he got up, started pointing out paintings he had dug out of the vault of the White House and hung.

快点把模型拿给我，我给他看看。

Get get me the model real fast, I'll show him.

我该这么做吗？

Should I?

谈到了他对白宫建筑群的规划。

Talked about his plans for the White House complex.

这一切提醒我们，尽管他正在对付委内瑞拉领导人、威胁要重新与伊朗接触，并否认人们有任何理由对经济感到焦虑。

All a reminder that while he is taking out the leader of Venezuela and threatening to reengage with the Iranians and denying that there's any reason for people to be anxious about the economy.

举个例子，你看到那边白色大理石地板了吗？

As an example, have you seen the white marble floor there?

没有。

No.

没有吗？

No?

嗯，我

Well, I'm

要上去了。

going back up.

所以如果你想的话，可以跟着我。

So if you want, you could follow me.

好的。

Yeah.

那太完美了。

That'd perfect.

好吗？

Okay?

让我先把这个做完。

Well, let me just finish this.

所以

So

他还在忙着考虑重建白宫。

He's also busy thinking about rebuilding the White House.

先生，您想给他们看看翻新工程吗？

Sir, do you wanna show them the renovation?

好的。

Yeah.

我们走吧。

Let's go.

来吧。

Come on.

我们

That we

受够了。

had enough.

不错的布置。

Nice setup.

对吧，凯蒂？

Right, Katie?

好吗？

Good?

两小时，凯蒂。

Two hours, Katie.

我可以干九个小时。

I could go nine hours.

我们将继续。

We're gonna continue.

先生，我可以

Sir, can I

要两个签名吗？

get two signatures?

你知道，我曾经和军队一起使用过跑步机。

Know, I did a a treadmill with the military.

好了，大卫，非常感谢你带我们回顾了这次与总统的精彩对话。

Well, David, thank you very much for walking us through this fascinating conversation with the president.

回来后，我们将请四位参与此次采访的人坐在一起，简要回顾一下这次对话以及你们各自的收获。

When we come back, we're gonna ask that all four of you who conducted this interview sit down together and briefly reflect on the conversation and what you all took from it.

我们马上回来。

So we'll be right back.

所以，泰勒、凯蒂、佐兰，大卫刚刚为我们梳理了你们四人对他进行的采访要点。

So, Tyler, Katie, Zolan, David just walked us through the highlights of the interview that the four of you did with him.

由于这次对话持续了很长时间，不可避免地有很多内容我们未能涉及。

Because this went on for so long, there's inevitably a lot of material that we couldn't cover.

所以我想先请你们每个人说说，他提到的哪一句话是我们没来得及和大卫讨论、但将来回看这次采访时会深深记住的？

So I wanna begin by just asking each of you what's one thing he said that we probably didn't cover with David that's really gonna stick with you when you reflect back on this interview.

凯蒂？

Katie?

我认为，总统在整个采访中非常渴望得到认可，他希望那些他希望获得尊重的人——无论是民主党人、共和党人、新闻媒体成员还是美国公众——都能向他表达善意。

I think it's the degree to which the president throughout this interview really wanted credit, and he wanted gestures of goodwill from people he wanted respect from, be it Democrats, Republicans, members of the news media, the American public.

我觉得，在整个交流过程中，这种需求的一种表现就是：他正在原东翼的位置上建造一个大厅，大到足以在里面举办未来总统的就职典礼。

And one of the ways I felt that that was manifesting during this whole encounter was he's building a ballroom where the East Wing used to be, big enough to host an inauguration inside for future presidents.

他不断重申自己是个建设者。

And he kept going back to this idea that he's a builder.

他还提到，也许自己作为建设者比作为政治家更出色。

He mentioned that maybe he was a better builder than he ever has been at politics.

有一次，他召来一名军事助理，带来了一份带有球厅微缩模型的建筑图纸，并几乎是在对我们和他自己说：那个正在建造的大厅，将来人们会感谢我，仿佛这个项目就是能实现他所追求的荣誉的载体——这正是他在本届任期、也是他整个公共生涯中一直寻求的认可。

And at one point, he summons a military aid to bring in an architectural rendering with miniature models of the ballroom, and is sort of almost telling us and himself, that building being built over there, they'll be thanking me as if this is the project that will do it, that will give him this credit that he has been seeking in this term, his last term, and throughout his time in public life.

佐兰，你呢？

Zolan, what about you?

凯蒂指出了一个很好的观点，即总统非常在意自己是否获得认可。

Katie made the good point of how the president is so motivated by whether or not he's getting credit.

这不仅仅是关于他现在是否获得认可，而且似乎他还很在意自己在第一任期是否获得了认可。

And it's not just about whether he's getting credit now, but it seems he's also motivated by whether or not he got credit in the first term.

当我们问他关于他的亲属、他们在其第二任期内在全球各地所做的商业交易以及赚取的钱财时，他看起来一点也不在意。

And he did not seem bothered at all when we asked him about his relatives and the business deals and the money that they've made across the world throughout his second term.

当我们追问此事时，他表示，在他看来，他的家人在第一任期表现出了克制，而他却没有因此获得认可。

When we pressed him on this, he was saying, well, in his view, his family showed restraint in the first term, and he didn't get credit.

在为家人赚钱方面，他愿意做到什么程度上的克制。

Showed restraint in terms of what he was willing to do in the name of making his family money.

没错。

That's right.

因此，在这一任期内，他表示自己对家人能够进行的商业交易几乎毫不在意。

And thus, now in this term, he said that he was pretty much unbothered about the business deals that his family has been able to pursue.

我认为，所有这些都表明这位总统在第二任期内更加无所顾忌。

All this, I think, speaks to a president who's so much more emboldened in this second term.

我认为我们近距离亲身见证了他有多么无所顾忌。

And I think we saw up close and personal just how emboldened he is.

泰勒？

Tyler?

我认为让我印象深刻的一点是，我们曾讨论过反犹主义，因为随着我们看到共和党内部就是否应为宣扬反犹太主义观点的人留出空间而爆发党派斗争，反犹主义已成为一个焦点问题。

One thing that I think stood out to me, Michael, is a conversation we had about antisemitism because it's become such a flashpoint within the Republican Party as we see this interparty warfare over whether or not there is space in the Republican Party and the broader Make America Great Again movement for people who espouse anti Semitic views.

网红。

Influencers.

没错。

Right.

J。

And J.

D。

D.

万斯，他的副总统，基本上表示，只要你热爱美国，你就欢迎，他不想搞纯洁性审查。

Vance, his vice president, said basically that as long as you love America, you're welcome, and he didn't wanna institute purity.

即使你是反犹太主义的。

Even if you're antisemitic.

对。

Right.

我问特朗普总统，他的运动中是否容得下持有反犹太主义观点的人，他说：不。

And I asked president Trump whether or not there was room in his movement for people with antisemitic views, and he said, no.

我觉得我们不需要他们。

I don't think we need them.

我觉得我们不喜欢他们。

I don't think we like them.

这使他与包括副总统在内的主要共和党人物产生分歧，后者似乎更愿意接纳那些在党内传播仇恨观点的人。

And that puts him at odds with leading Republican figures, including his vice president, who seemed more open to including people who spread hateful views within the party.

在这个辩论在他运动和追随者中激烈展开之际，他明确而强烈地反对传播反犹太主义的人。

It was a moment where he really came out quite strongly against people who spread antisemitism when this debate is coursing through his movement and among his supporters.

对。

Right.

他在那里划出了一条非常明确的红线。

He's drawing a pretty bright red line there.

所以，我最后想问你们每个人一个问题。

So one last question for each of you.

你们从这次对话中得出的最终结论是什么？

What is your ultimate takeaway from this conversation?

对我来说，这次采访中有一些时刻，总统似乎成了自己政策和议程的旁观者。

For me, there were moments in this interview where it almost seemed like the president was a bystander to his own policies, to his own agenda.

例如，他曾谈到对全面移民改革和潜在入籍途径的兴趣。

There were times where he would speak, for example, about an interest in comprehensive immigration reform and a potential pathway to citizenship.

但他同时也指示助手们推进大规模驱逐行动。

Well, he has also directed his aides to go pursue mass deportations.

他还提到，国土安全部在某些行业需要谨慎行事。

And, you know, he talked about, well, ICE needs to be careful around certain industries.

你负责移民和海关执法局。

You run ICE.

是的。

Yeah.

你负责移民和海关执法局。

You run ICE.

而且，史蒂文·米勒也为你工作。

And also, Steven Miller works for you.

史蒂文·米勒也明确表示支持大规模驱逐行动。

Steven Miller has been clear about pursuing mass deportations as well.

因此，他似乎有意与自己政府的一些行动保持距离。

So it was that distance he almost seemed to sort of try to create between himself and in some of the actions that his administration is taking.

是的。

Yeah.

这很有趣。

That is fascinating.

凯蒂，你呢？

Katie, what about you?

我从这次采访中得到的主要体会是，特朗普总统有很多面。

My major takeaway from this is that there are many faces to president Trump.

甚至在整个采访过程中，协调这些不同的形象都是一次真正的挑战，因为他时而具有攻击性。

And even throughout that interview, it was a real exercise in wrangling those different personas because he was combative.

有时他又很乐观。

He was upbeat at times.

当我们追问他的健康状况时，他几乎表现得非常顺从。

He was very almost docile when we were asking him probing questions about his health.

因此，他没有表现出那个曾称记者煽动叛乱、因追问其健康状况而恼怒的特朗普总统形象，反而允许泰勒问他是否曾经使用过GLP-1药物。

And so instead of being the president Trump who has called reporters seditious for asking questions about his health, he allowed Tyler to ask him if he'd ever taken a GLP one medication before.

他回答说没有。

He said no.

插一句。

Quick interjection.

等等。

Wait.

他怎么说的？

What did he say?

他说他没有，但可能应该用。

He said he had not, but he probably should.

大卫问他除了阿司匹林之外是否还在服用任何抗凝药。

David asked him if he was on any blood thinners besides aspirin.

答案是否定的。

The answer was no.

是的。

Yeah.

非常私密的问题。

Very personal questions.

我问他是否曾经得过心脏病。

I asked him if he had ever had a heart attack.

是

Are

问题，答案是否定的。

questions The answer was no.

答案是否定的。

The answer was no.

但关键是，这是他的另一个版本，你永远不知道你会遇到他的哪一个版本，而他清楚这一点。

But the point is this was a different version of him, and you never know which version of him you are going to get, and he knows that.

他知道，如果外国领导人给他打电话，对方并不知道电话那头是谁。

He knows that if a foreign leader calls him, that person does not know who is on the other end of the line.

哪个身份？

Which persona?

是的。

Yes.

这意味着这位总统可以威胁施压，也可以表现得宽宏大量。

And that means that this president can dangle consequences, can show up as magnanimous.

他也可以表现出威胁的一面。

He can show up as threatening.

我认为这是我今后的主要收获。

I think that is my main takeaway going forward.

很有趣。

Fascinating.

大卫？

David?

你知道，所有总统在第二任期都会更关注外交政策，这不仅是因为他们拥有更大的影响力和自由度，还因为他们希望留下遗产。

You know, all presidents in their second term turn more to foreign policy, not only because they've got greater leverage and greater freedom, but because they want to establish a legacy.

我认为我从中得出的第一点是，这是一个既想着构建外交政策遗产，又想着建造建筑的人。

And I think the first thing I took away from it is this is somebody who thinks about building a foreign policy legacy and building buildings.

第二点让我印象深刻的是，他花时间与《纽约时报》接触，因为他真的希望获得对这种强大美国新愿景的认可。

The second thing that really jumped out at me was that he was spending this time with the New York Times because he really wants an approval for this new vision of a muscular America.

我认为他正在努力进行一项他认为重要的投资，以解释一种管理全球的新方法。

And I think he was making what he thought was a significant investment in trying to explain a new approach to managing the globe.