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如果你对这个既充满绝望又充满希望的时刻感到困惑，我想说我理解你的感受。
If you find yourself bewildered by this moment where there's so much reason for despair and so much reason to hope all at the same time, let me say I hear you.
我是《纽约时报》观点专栏的埃兹拉·克莱因，也是《埃兹拉·克莱因秀》的主持人。
I'm Ezra Klein from New York Times Opinion, host of the Ezra Klein show.
对我来说，驱散这种困惑感的最佳方式，就是与那些能提供理解框架和见解的人交流探讨。
And for me, the best way to beat back that bewildered feeling is to talk it out with the people who have ideas and frameworks for making sense of it.
我们有很多话题可以讨论。
There is going to be plenty to talk about.
你可以在任何获取播客的地方找到埃兹拉·克莱因秀。
You can find the Ezra Klein show wherever you get your podcasts.
我是《纽约时报》的娜塔莉·基特罗耶夫。
From the New York Times, I'm Natalie Kitroev.
这里是《每日》节目。
This is The Daily.
特朗普总统正大力推进全面缩减联邦政府规模的计划。
President Trump pushing ahead with sweeping plans to trim the size of the federal government.
特朗普总统正在民主党主导的城市加大驱逐力度。
President Trump is ramping up deportations in Democrat led cities.
美国袭击了伊朗的三个核设施。
The US has attacked three nuclear sites in Iran.
特朗普总统许多最具争议的政策背后，都有一家公司——Palantir。
At the heart of many of president Trump's most controversial policies, there's been one company, Palantir.
我们公司的核心使命始终是让西方，尤其是美国，成为世界上最强大的国家，前所未有的强大。
The core mission of our company always was to make the West, especially America, the strongest in the world, the strongest ever been.
根据Palantir首席执行官的说法，该公司存在的目的是捍卫西方理念。
According to Palantir's CEO, the company exists to defend Western ideals.
但批评者认为
But to its critics
有人担心Palantir可能赋予政府广泛的、近乎未来主义的监控能力。
Some worry that Palantir could give the government sweeping, almost futuristic surveillance capabilities.
Palantir正在助长政府的不自由策略。
Palantir is enabling the administration's illiberal tactics.
今天，《纽约时报》撰稿人迈克尔·斯坦伯格将讲述帕兰提尔公司CEO——一位自称终身民主党人——如何成为特朗普总统支持者的故事。
Today, Times contributor Michael Steinberger on how Palantir's CEO, who's described himself as a lifelong democrat, became a champion of president Trump.
他的政治转型如何塑造了这家全球最神秘的公司之一，以及这种转型可能对美国民主产生的影响。
How his political transformation shaped one of the most secretive companies in the world, and the impact that transformation could have on American democracy.
帕兰提尔的存在就是为了颠覆现状，让我们合作的机构成为世界顶尖。必要时我们会震慑敌人，甚至消灭他们。
Palantir is here to disrupt and make the institutions we partner with the very best in the world, and when it's necessary to scare enemies and, on occasion, kill them.
今天是12月16日，星期二。
It's Tuesday, December 16.
迈克尔，欢迎来到节目。
Michael, welcome to the show.
谢谢邀请。
Thank you for having me.
你刚刚出版了这本书。
You just published this book.
书名是《山谷中的哲学家》，讲述Palantir及其CEO亚历克斯·卡普的故事。
It's called The Philosopher in the Valley about Palantir and its CEO, Alex Karp.
在撰写这本书的过程中，你与卡普及这家公司内部共处了很长时间，这家公司在特朗普第二任期内扮演着非常独特的角色。
And in the process of working on that book, you spent a lot of time with Karp and Inside the Company, this company that is playing a very unique role in the second Trump administration.
所以我想不出还有谁比你更适合回答这个问题。
So I can't think of anyone better to ask.
Palantir究竟是做什么的？
What exactly does Palantir do?
首先，我得说这是一家相当神秘的公司。
Well, first, I should say that it's a quite secretive company.
其大部分工作是与情报部门和军方合作完成的。
A lot of its work is done with intelligence services, the military.
因此他们有许多无法公开讨论的内容，我们也无从知晓。
So there's a lot of stuff they do that they can't talk about then we can't know about.
这项工作在技术上也相当复杂。
The work is also technologically quite complex.
本质上，Palantir开发的软件能帮助机构更快速高效地利用他们的数据。
Essentially, Palantir makes software that enables organizations to make faster, better use of their data.
通常来说，我们指的是那些收集大量数据的大型组织。
Typically, we're talking about large organizations that collect sizable quantities of data.
Palantir的软件会整合所有数据，进行融合，然后从中发现模式、趋势和关联，这些可能是人眼难以察觉的。
Palantir's software pulls in all the data, merges it, and then finds patterns, trends, connections in that data, stuff that might elude the human eye.
Palantir工作的一个非常有力的例子是在乌克兰战争中。
One very powerful example of Palantir's work was in the war in Ukraine.
Palantir的软件是五角大楼人工智能驱动目标定位项目的核心，在战争的头几个月被广泛使用，帮助乌克兰人抵御俄罗斯的进攻。
Palantir's software is the backbone for the Pentagon's AI driven targeting program, and this was used extensively in the first months of the war to help the Ukrainians withstand the Russian assault.
美军当时获取了大量卫星数据以及截获的俄罗斯通讯信息。
So a lot of satellite data was being pulled in by the US military along with intercepted Russian communications.
美军于是能够告诉乌克兰方面说，好的。
And the US military was able to say to the Ukrainians, okay.
这里有部队集结。
Here's where there's a troop formation.
这里有一位将军。
There's a general here.
如果你向这些坐标发射导弹，可能会对结果非常满意。
If you fire a missile at these coordinates, you might be very happy with the results.
Palantir的技术对此至关重要，在帮助乌克兰抵御俄罗斯初期进攻中发挥了非常重要的作用。
And Palantir's technology was instrumental to this and played a very significant role in enabling the Ukrainians to withstand the initial Russian assault.
乌克兰战争的例子显然展示了这款软件的价值，但这家公司也引发了很多担忧。
So that example of the war in Ukraine obviously shows the value of this software, but this is a company that also prompts a lot of concern.
对吧？
Right?
你能解释一下这部分吗？
Can you just explain that part?
是的。
Yeah.
它不仅引发了很多担忧，许多人认为Palantir可能是世界上最危险的公司。
It It it not only prompts a lot of concern, many people regard Palantir as possibly the most dangerous company in the world.
部分原因在于它的一些客户。
Part of this is some of the clients it has.
它被中央情报局（CIA）使用。
It's used by the CIA.
事实上，CIA曾是Palantir的早期投资者。
In fact, the CIA was an early investor in Palantir.
它还被摩萨德及其他秘密情报机构使用。
It's also used by the Mossad and other clandestine services.
它被执法部门广泛使用。
It's used extensively by law enforcement.
大量个人信息流经Palantir的数据管道，该公司也一直处于今年占据头条新闻并引发诸多争议的问题中心。
A lot of personal information is flowing through Palantir's pipelines, and the company has also been at the center of the issues that have dominated the headlines this year and have generated a lot of controversy.
移民海关执法局(ICE)与驱逐出境、Doge、加沙、伊朗以及人工智能。
ICE and deportations, Doge, Gaza, Iran, and AI.
你能就其中一个例子再深入一点说明吗？
Can you just go a little deeper on one of those examples?
比如，它是如何成为事件核心的？
Like, how has it been at the center of things?
例如，Palantir的技术对当前正在进行的移民打击行动至关重要。
Well, for instance, Palantir's technology is integral to the immigration crackdown taking place right now.
美国移民和海关执法局（ICE）正在广泛使用Palantir的技术来识别并协助驱逐出境。
ICE is making extensive use of Palantir's technology to identify and facilitate deportations.
尤其令人担忧的是，ICE似乎正在构建一个庞大的监控系统，而Palantir似乎处于这一系统的核心位置。
And what has people particularly concerned is that ICE appears to be building a massive surveillance apparatus, and Palantir appears to be at the center of that.
尽管Palantir自视为世界上的正义力量，但公司内部也有人承认其技术可能被用于造成伤害。
Now Palantir sees itself as a force for good in the world, but even people at the company acknowledge that its technology could be used to do harm.
而且一段时间以来已经很明显，这项技术若落入专制政权之手，将成为极其强大的工具。
And it's been clear for some time that its technology in the hands of an authoritarian regime would be a very powerful tool.
而谁能使用Palantir的软件以及用于何种目的，全由一个人决定——公司CEO亚历克斯·卡普。
And who gets to use Palantir's software and for what purpose is decided by one person, the company's CEO, Alex Karp.
跟我讲讲亚历克斯·卡普吧。
Tell me about Alex Karp.
他是谁？
Who is he?
亚历克斯·卡普可能是全球商界最独特的人物。
Alex Karp is maybe the most unique figure on the global business scene.
我和他最初是在2019年开始交谈的。
He and I first started talking in 2019.
那年我们有过几次对话，其中一次是在他位于佛蒙特州的家中。
We had a couple conversations that year, including one at a home that he owns in Vermont.
所以你刚找到这个地方。
So you just found this place.
虽然有点破旧，但我很喜欢。
It's a little bit of a dump, but I like it.
很不错。
It's nice.
说这栋房子与世隔绝都算轻描淡写了。
To say the home was off the grid would be an understatement.
我...我对这里很满意。
I'm I'm happy with it.
我喜欢这里。
I like it.
而且，我是说，你在这里有隐私。
And, I mean, you've got privacy here.
是的。
Yep.
是的。
Yep.
你知道，我的邻居们...我不确定你是否见过那些邻居。
You know, my neighbors I don't know if you saw the neighbors.
他们就像是...
They're Like, have a
左边这里有个农民。
farmer to the left here.
对。
Yeah.
我们在午餐时有过交谈，但卡普很难安静坐着。
We had a conversation over lunch, but it's difficult for Carp to sit still.
我们一吃完
And as soon as we were finished
你知道吗，我们何不去散步呢？
You know, why don't we go for a walk in?
我会告诉你我们进行了
And I'll tell you about We took
一次长途徒步。
a long hike.
他的两名保镖一直跟着我们，保镖又和我们在一起了。
We were trailed by two of his bodyguards We got the bodyguards with us again.
还有两名保镖留在停车场。
And two more bodyguards remained in the parking lot.
如果我的手机在附近，就有人在监听。
If my phone is around, someone's listening.
有人在监听。
Someone is listening.
毫无疑问。
Definitively.
那么是一个外国情报机构？
So a a foreign intelligence agency?
完全正确。
Absolutely.
如果他们不监听我的电话，那才是不负责任的行为。
It would be irresponsible for them not to listen to my phone call.
所以谈话时他非常注重安全，这是有充分理由的。
So the conversation He's very security conscious and for a good reason.
他经营的公司与中央情报局及其他秘密机构合作，是一家重要的国防承包商。
He's running a company that works with the CIA and other clandestine services that is a major defense contractor.
你担心个人安全吗？
Do you worry about your personal safety?
当然。
Absolutely.
你呢？
You do?
是的。
Yeah.
不担心才不正常。
I'd be insane not to.
是啊。
Yeah.
我是说，当他们
I mean, when they
给我配保镖时，还以为我疯了。
got me to bodyguards, thought I was insane.
但现在看来那很有先见之明，因为我们确实收到过不少来自极右翼新纳粹的威胁。
But now, all I think is prescient because historically, we've gotten lots of threats from, like, far right neo Nazis.
是的。
Yeah.
现在，我是说，就像是那些恨我们的人。是的。
Now, I mean, it's like, people who hate us Yeah.
没错。
Yeah.
以各种不同的方式出现。
Come inventing different stripes.
对。
Yeah.
他通往这个角色的道路非常不寻常。
He's had a very unusual path to this role.
那条路是怎样的呢？
And what is that path?
他是费城长大的孩子。
He's a Philly kid.
他在费城长大，成长于一个非常左翼的家庭。
He grew up in Philadelphia, grew up in a very left wing household.
他的父亲是犹太裔儿科医生。
His father is Jewish pediatrician.
他的母亲是非裔艺术家。
His mother is black and an artist.
他是混血儿，犹太裔，同时还患有严重的阅读障碍。
He's biracial, Jewish, and also severely dyslexic.
是啊。
Yeah.
就像，我的大脑结构非常奇特。
It's like, I have this weirdly structured brain.
这台发动机的结构就是与众不同。
The motor is just structured differently.
没错。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
你的思维方式与众不同。卡尔普和他小两岁的弟弟经常参加反战示威、反核示威活动。
You think differently And Karp and his brother, who's two years younger, spent a lot of time going to anti war protests, anti nuclear protests.
我不
I don't
而且
And
他最终进入当地的哈弗福德学院就读，这是一所小型文理学院，有着悠久的异议传统。
he ends up going to college locally to Haverford College, a small liberal arts school with a strong tradition of descent.
对于像卡尔普这样在政治漩涡中长大的人来说，这里堪称完美之地。
Perfect place for someone who grew up in the political amelia that Karp did.
在此需要说明，我和他当年是哈弗福德学院的同学。
I should acknowledge at this point that he and I were classmates at Haverford.
太棒了。
Amazing.
我必须说明一点，我是在哈弗福德学院的校园里长大的，因为我的父母在那里任教。
I should acknowledge at this point that I grew up on Haverford College's campus because my parents taught there.
哈弗福德是个小地方，但此刻我们却在这里相遇了，不是吗
Haverford Haverford's a small place, but it is converging in this moment here, isn't
？
it?
确实如此。
Indeed.
总之，他坚称自己在哈弗福德学院时并没有那么用功。
So in any event, he, you know, he insists that he didn't work that hard at Haverford.
我认为他的人生轨迹恰恰证明了相反的情况。
I think his path in life would suggest otherwise.
我想图书馆见到他的次数远比见到我的多，这或许能部分解释为何他成了亿万富翁而我没有。
I think the library saw a lot more of him than it did of me, which may go some way to explaining why he became a billionaire and I did not.
但年轻时，他对自己黑人血统的认同感非常强烈。
But as a young man, he identified very strongly with his black heritage.
在哈弗福德学院时，他积极参与黑人学生事务。
At Haverford, he was very involved with black student affairs.
在我们大学四年级那年，他协助组织了耶鲁大学的一场反种族主义会议。
In our senior year in college, he organ helped organize an anti racism conference at Yale University.
离开哈弗福德后，他进入斯坦福法学院——他认为这是他人生中最大的错误之一。
After Haverford, he goes to Stanford Law School, which he considers one of the biggest mistakes of his life.
我简直厌恶那段经历。
I just hated that.
他在那里过得很痛苦。
He's miserable there.
他觉得那里的学术氛围令人极度不满。
He finds the intellectual climate very dissatisfying.
对卡普而言，法学院唯一值得忍受的是与另一位斯坦福法学院一年级生建立的友谊。
The only thing that makes law school tolerable for Karp is the friendship he strikes up with another first year law student at Stanford.
看着他在彼得那里的样子。
Seeing him at Peter there.
彼得·蒂尔。
Peter Thiel.
我非常喜欢彼得·蒂尔，他现在是非常著名的自由意志主义保守派人士，也是共和党的大金主。
I really like Peter Thiel, the now very prominent libertarian conservative, now a big Republican donor.
没错。
Exactly.
他们因共同对法学院的反感而结缘，也因热爱政治辩论而惺惺相惜。
They bonded over their shared dislike of law school, and they also bonded over their love of political argument.
正如蒂尔对我所说，他更偏向资本主义者，而卡普则是社会主义者。
As Thiel said to me, he was more the capitalist, and Karp was the socialist.
我们进行这些野性辩论已有二十五六年了。
We've been having these feral discourses now for twenty five, twenty six years.
卡普说他们当时争论得像野兽一样激烈。
Karp says that they argued like feral animals.
哇。
Wow.
这些宿舍里的辩论赛显然非常激烈。
These dorm room bowl sessions were apparently epic.
明白了。
Got it.
他们有自己的小型辩论俱乐部。
They had their own little debate club.
没错。
That's right.
所以，你知道的，卡彭蒂洛于1992年从斯坦福法学院毕业。
So, you know, Carpentillo graduated from Stanford Law in 1992.
卡普并没有打算从事法律职业。
Carp had no intention of pursuing a career in law.
相反，他去了德国攻读哲学博士学位。
Instead, he went to Germany to pursue a doctorate in philosophy.
但我在德国的青少年时期找到了自我。
But I became myself in my adolescence in Germany.
是的。
Yeah.
这意味着，我能够展现真实的自我
It's a which means, like, I was able to expand into my true self
对。
Yeah.
或者说我最舒适的那个自我。
Or the self I was most comfortable with.
明白了。
Gotcha.
他去德国是因为，你知道的，那些对他影响最深的作家都是德国人，但他也被吸引去那里，因为他有犹太血统。
He went to Germany because he was you know, the writers that he found most impactful were German, but he's also drawn there because he was Jewish.
他父亲的家族来自德国，他想更深入地理解大屠杀，以及为何德国——这个曾代表欧洲文明巅峰的国家——会堕落至如此野蛮，并如此残忍地对待其犹太人口。
His father's family had come from Germany, and he wanted to gain a deeper understanding of the Holocaust and why Germany, which had been the pinnacle of European civilization, descended into such barbarism and turned on its Jewish population so savagely.
最终，他以法西斯主义的修辞学为题完成了他的博士论文。
And he ends up writing his dissertation on the rhetoric of fascism.
与此同时，彼得·蒂尔回到了美国。
Meanwhile, Peter Thiel is back in The United States.
他先是在纽约一家律师事务所工作了一段时间，随后进入一家投资银行。
He works for a time for a New York law firm, then ends up working at an investment bank.
对此并不满足的他重返硅谷，正值互联网热潮兴起，于1998年共同创立了在线支付公司PayPal。
Unsatisfied with that, he heads back out to Silicon Valley where the .com boom is underway and cofound an online payments company, PayPal, in 1998.
三年后，世界发生了剧变。
Three years later, the world changes.
就在刚才，据称一架飞机撞上了世贸中心。
Just a few moments ago, allegedly, a plane has crashed into the World Trade Center.
当911事件发生时。
When nine eleven happens.
哦，又来了一架。
Oh, there's another one.
又一架飞机刚刚撞上了。
Another plane just hit.
哦，对。
Oh, right.
天啊。
Oh my god.
又一架飞机。
Another plane.
今天发生了难以想象的事情。
The unthinkable happened today.
世贸中心的双子塔，全没了。
The World Trade Center, both towers, gone.
美国民众渴望得到关于9·11事件的诸多答案。
The American people want the answers to so many questions around nine eleven.
蒂尔思考，如果政府机构之间能更便捷地共享信息，这次袭击是否本可避免。
Thiel wonders if the attack could have been prevented had government agencies been able to more readily share information with one another.
联邦调查局掌握了一些情报。
The FBI had information.
中央情报局也掌握着情报。
The CIA had information.
如果这些情报能够共享，袭击或许本可以避免。
If that information had been pooled, it's possible the attack could have been prevented.
911事件调查委员会在2004年发布的最终报告中指出，部分原因在于信息孤岛导致未能串联线索。
The nine eleven commission, when it issued its final report in 2004, said that there had been a failure to connect the dots in part because information was siloed.
正是这一理念催生了Palantir公司。
And this is the idea that gives rise to Palantir.
Thio相信他可以创建一家公司，帮助情报分析师串联线索，在干草堆中寻找针，从而预防未来的袭击。
Thio believed he could create a company that would help intelligence analysts connect the dots, find the needles in the haystack, and prevent future attacks.
大约就在这个时候，Karp重新出现在湾区。
And it's around this time that Karp resurfaces in the Bay Area.
他从德国回来了，并与Thiel重聚。
He's back from Germany, and he and Thiel reunite.
Thiel请Karp帮他为Palantir筹集一些资金。
Thiel asks Karp to help him raise some money for Palantir.
这家公司正试图起步。
This company is trying to get off the ground.
蒂尔面试了几位CEO职位的候选人，但随后他和参与创办Palantir的其他人意识到卡普可能是最合适的人选。
Thiel interviews a couple of people for the CEO position, but then he and the other people involved in founding Palantir realize Karp is probably the right guy for the job.
你能说说原因吗？
Can you say why?
因为在我看来卡普实际上是个不太可能的CEO人选。
Because Karp actually seems to me an unlikely pick to be CEO.
他当时并不真正属于硅谷科技圈。
He isn't really in the Silicon Valley tech scene at this point.
对吧？
Right?
不是。
No.
他确实不是。
He's not.
从某些方面来看，他是个非常出人意料的选择，他自己也向我承认了这一点。
I mean, in some ways, he's a very unlikely choice, and he admitted as much to me.
我没有任何技能。
I have no skills.
这是事实。
That's the truth.
我没有受过商业训练。
I wasn't trained in business.
我对初创企业文化一无所知。
I didn't know anything about startup culture.
我对如何建立企业一窍不通。
I didn't know anything about building a business.
我对企业融资完全不懂。
I didn't know anything about financing a business.
他没有商业背景，也没有计算机科学的专业训练。
Didn't He's got no background in business, no training in computer science.
而且，他来自一个左翼家庭，现在却要为一家处于国家安全与技术交汇点的公司工作。
And, of course, he's coming from a left wing household, and now he's gonna be working for a company that's at the nexus of technology in the national security state.
确实，从纸面上看，他非常不合适，但他却充满热情。
He is, yeah, on paper, a very unlikely fit, and yet he is very passionate.
我是说，从他参与的那一刻起，他就对Palantir所做的事情充满热情。
I mean, the moment he gets involved, he is very passionate about what Palantir is doing.
是的。
Yeah.
我只是觉得这听起来是有史以来最酷的主意。
I just thought this sounds like the coolest idea ever.
你觉得是吧。
You thought yeah.
所以，所以
So So
如果我错过这个机会，我会后悔的。
if I pass this up, I'll I'll regret it.
卡普目前对Palantir正在做的事情具体哪方面充满热情？
What exactly about what Palantir is up to at this point is Karp passionate about?
Palantir是一家罕见的、具有强烈意识形态的公司。
Well, Palantir is this rare burden that's a very ideological company.
它不仅旨在帮助美国政府打击恐怖主义战争，更广泛地是为了帮助捍卫西方世界。
It doesn't exist just to help the US government fight the war on terrorism, but it exists more broadly to help defend the West.
这是他们的观点，而他对此充满热情——捍卫西方世界，同时也捍卫他所认为的核心西方价值观：言论自由、集会自由、宗教自由，也就是我们所知的公民自由。
That is their view, and he's passionate about this, defending the West, but also defending what he sees as core Western values, freedom of speech, freedom of assembly, freedom of religion, what we know as civil liberties.
他相信Palantir能够开发出一种技术，既能让政府找到坏人，又不会变成一张拖累大量无辜美国人的大网。
He believed that Palantir could develop technology that would enable the government to find the bad guys without becoming a massive dragnet pulling in lots of innocent Americans.
而他被Palantir的使命所吸引，有着非常个人的原因，这些原因与他自己的身份认同紧密相连。
And he's drawn to Palantir's mission for very personal reasons, reasons that are tied to his own identity.
如果你是我，每天早晨醒来时——就像我现在依然这样——想着：我彻底完蛋了。
If you're if you're me and you wake up every morning, like I still do, thinking, I am totally screwed.
这就是我每天早晨醒来的感受。
That's how I wake up every morning.
我一直都是这样
That's how I've been
我这一生每天早晨都是这样醒来
waking up every morning my whole life.
你每天
You wake up every
早晨醒来都觉得自己完蛋了
morning thinking I'm totally screwed.
是啊
Yeah.
因为
Because
他说自己从小就明白，在他看来，自己身上有些不利因素
He understands from a young age, he says, that he had, in his view, some strikes against him.
而我是一个种族特征模糊的犹太孩子，还有阅读障碍
And I am this racially amorphous Jewish kid who's also dyslexic.
我完蛋了。
I am fucked.
这就是我眼中的自己。
That's how I see myself.
这就是我过去对自己的看法，
That's how I saw myself at
而这种脆弱感伴随他进入成年，并带到了Palantir公司。
And it's a sense of vulnerability he carries into adulthood and brings with him to Palantir.
我生活中的每个方面都受到极度恐惧的驱使，几乎每个决定都是如此。
There's no aspect of my life that was not motivated by absolute terror that propelled almost every decision.
这种恐惧也推动着这家公司的许多决策。
It propels a lot of decisions to this company.
现在的恐惧感并不比我小时候少。
And I don't have less of it than I did when I was a little kid.
911事件后，人们显然非常担心会有更多恐怖袭击发生。
So then And in the aftermath of nine eleven, there was obviously a lot of concern that there were gonna be many more terrorist attacks.
卡普的观点是，当人们感到受到威胁时，无论是由于犯罪还是恐怖主义，他们不可避免地会转向极右翼。
And Karp's view is that when people feel threatened, whether because of crime or because of terrorism, they inevitably turn to the far right.
我为什么要在意极右翼的崛起？
And why do I care about the ascendancy of the far right?
因为第一个被吊死的会是谁呢？没错。
Because who's the first person who's gonna get hung Yeah.
当他们掌权时？
When they come to power?
顺便说一句，极左翼也好不到哪里去。
By the way, the far, far, far, far, far left isn't much better either.
你列个名单，我会告诉你他们先抓谁。
You make a list, and I will show you who they get first.
就是我。
It's me.
他想阻止这一切，因为自由民主、对少数群体权利的强力保护，这些对他个人而言都极为重要。
And he wants to prevent that because liberal democracy, robust protection of minority rights, these are things that matter greatly to him personally.
因此，他将Palantir视为可能阻止这一政治结局的一种方式。
And so he sees Palantir as a way of possibly preventing that political outcome.
这很有趣。
It's interesting.
他认为防止恐怖袭击是阻止美国公众因恐惧而转向极右翼的关键。
He views preventing terrorist attacks as key to preventing the American public from turning to the far right out of fear.
正是如此。
Exactly.
他认为，如果因为恐怖主义而发生更多恐怖袭击和大规模伤亡事件，选民们不可避免地会转向极右翼，因为他们认为极右翼能保护他们，而他们将变得不太愿意保护少数群体等等，因为他们感到害怕，想要寻求保护，并且认为极右翼能保护他们。
He thought that if there were more terrorist attacks and many more mass casualty events because of terrorism, voters were inevitably gonna turn to the far right because they think that the far right will protect them, and they will become much less inclined to, protect minorities and so forth because they they're scared, and they want protection, and they think the far right will protect them.
他们会转向威权主义。
They will turn to authoritarianism.
他希望阻止这种结果，并将Palantir视为可能有助于预防这种情况的手段。
He wants to prevent that outcome, and he sees Palantir as a means possibly of helping prevent that.
好的。
Okay.
这种意识形态倾向，即捍卫西方的承诺，在Palantir的实际工作中是如何体现的？
And how does this ideological bent, this commitment to defending the West, actually manifest in Palantir's work?
这要从中央情报局（CIA）说起，它成为了Palantir的客户。
Well, it begins with the CIA, which becomes a Palantir client.
随后他们与美国军方建立了业务往来。
They then develop a business with the US military.
这非常符合他们的使命定位。
This is very much in keeping with their mission.
他们希望成为国家安全机构的首选软件供应商。
They want to be the software supplier of choice to the national security state.
但在二月份，他们开始与包括ICE在内的多个政府机构合作，拓展联邦政府民用部门的业务。
But then in the February, they start developing business on the civilian side of the federal government with a number of government agencies, including ICE.
这份合同成为了Palantir的争议焦点，也是其为政府工作中最具争议的部分。
And this contract becomes a flashpoint for Palantir, the most controversial part of Palantir's work for the government.
那么Palantir最初为ICE提供哪些服务呢？
And what is Palantir doing for ICE, at least at the beginning?
实际上，这段合作关系始于奥巴马政府时期。
Well, it's a relationship that began actually under the Obama administration.
Palantir的许多业务始于客户面临危机之时。
A lot of Palantir's work begins with clients in moments of crisis.
当时ICE正面临一场危机。
And ICE had a crisis on its hands.
现在播报一则关于两名美国人在墨西哥境内、美国边境以南遭枪击的新闻。
And now news about the shooting of two Americans south of The US border in Mexico.
一名移民和海关执法局特工被杀，另一名受伤。
One immigration and customs enforcement agent killed another wounded.
一名ICE特别探员被墨西哥贩毒集团暗杀。
An ICE special agent had been assassinated by a Mexican drug cartel.
特别探员海梅·萨帕塔胸部中弹数枪身亡。
Special agent Jaime Zapata was shot several times in the chest and killed.
ICE需要协助追查这些暗杀者。
And ICE needed help finding the assassins.
墨西哥目前正对一名美国移民官员的凶手展开激烈搜捕，美墨两国调查人员均已介入。
There's an intense manhunt underway in Mexico right now for the killers of an American immigration officer, both US and Mexican investigators involved.
于是调查转向了Palantir公司，短短数小时内，Palantir工程师就为ICE部署好软件并投入运行，开始整合各类数据——电话记录、银行流水、以及可能从监控摄像头调取的任何影像资料。
And searching turned to Palantir, and within a matter of hours, Palantir engineers had the software up and running for ICE and were pulling in a wide variety of data, phone records, bank records, any footage that might have been pulled from surveillance cameras.
而在两周之内
And within two weeks
据悉在昨天海梅·萨帕塔下葬后，墨西哥当局已拘押了其中一名
learned that after Jaime Zapata was laid to rest yesterday, Mexican authorities took one of
今天已将嫌疑人拘留归案。
the suspects into custody today.
他们已抓获袭击者，并缴获了价值数百万美元的毒品。
They had apprehended the assailant and also confiscated millions of dollars worth of drugs.
此后，ICE于2014年授予Palantir一份合同，与ICE下属的国土安全调查部门合作，该部门负责处理人口贩卖和毒品走私等事务。
After that, ICE awards Palantir a contract in 2014, working with a branch of ICE called Homeland Security Investigations, which deals with things like human trafficking and drug trafficking.
这种合作关系在2016年特朗普首次当选总统前并未引起太多关注。
It's a relationship that doesn't draw much attention until Donald Trump is elected president the first time in 2016.
他曾以打击非法移民为竞选承诺，而ICE是执行这一打击行动的关键力量，Palantir因其与ICE的关系成为了抗议活动的焦点。
He had run on a promise to crack down on immigration, and ICE is instrumental to enforcing that crackdown, and Palantir becomes the object of protests because of its relationship with ICE.
怎么
How
回事？
so?
Politier。
Politier.
闪耀登场。
Shines up.
Palantir。
Palantir.
闪耀登场。
Shines up.
其位于帕洛阿尔托的总部外爆发了抗议活动。
There are protests outside its headquarters in Palo Alto.
怎么了？
What's up?
我该怎么办？我们要做什么？
What am I gonna What do we do?
给我们发个类似
Send us like
那样的。
that.
还有在其他Palantir办公室外
And outside other Palantir offices
抗议者举着标语如'Palantir，醒醒吧'。
Protesters held signs like Palantir, wake up.
你们是同谋。
You're complicit.
校园里还有抵制活动。
There are boycotts on campuses.
人们表示不希望Palantir的招聘人员出现在他们的校园里。
People saying that they don't want Palantir's recruiters to appear on their campuses.
Palantir被多个大型科技会议拒之门外，因为人们不希望它参与。
Palantir is kicked out of several major tech conferences because people don't want it there.
同时公司内部也存在相当数量的异议声音。
And there's also a fair amount of internal dissent.
Palantir有数百名员工公开表明反对与ICE合作，并拒绝在特朗普的移民镇压政策中扮演任何角色。
There are hundreds of employees at Palantir who make known their objection to working with ICE and to having any role in Trump's immigration crackdown.
我很感兴趣。
I'm interested.
卡普本人曾经也是个活动家，作为左派分子的儿子，他如何回应左派对这份合同的强烈抗议？
How does Karp, this one time activist himself, this son of leftists, how does he respond to the outcry on the left over this contract?
早在特朗普首次担任总统期间，他就明确表示自己不是特朗普的粉丝。
Well, he makes clear back in Trump's first presidency that he is not a fan of Donald Trump.
我理解抗议者为何要抗议我们。
I understand why the protesters protest us.
是的。
Yeah.
我从小就在抗议别人。
I grew up protesting people.
但他也认为抗议者和更广泛的民主党人在移民问题上非常误入歧途。
But he also thinks that the protesters and Democrats more broadly are very misguided on the issue of immigration.
而且，你知道，我是个进步派。
And, you know, I am a progressive.
许多进步派人士认为我们应该加强边境执法。
And many progressives believe that we should have strong border enforcement.
所以如果我们进步派想赢，这将成为进步阵营的一部分。
So that's gonna be part of the progressive tent if we progressives wanna win.
现在选民对边境的混乱景象感到不满。
Now Voters are not happy about scenes of chaos at the border.
他们不喜欢非法移民，因为他们认为这会压低美国工人阶级的工资。
They don't like illegal immigration because they think that it would depress the wages of working class Americans.
卡普的观点是，如果民主党人和进步派不认真对待这些担忧，他们就会转向那些重视这些问题的人。
And Karp's view is that if Democrats and progressives don't take those concerns seriously, they're gonna turn to people who do.
这就是为什么在卡普看来，唐纳德·特朗普能在2016年当选。
That's why Donald Trump was elected in 2,016 in Karp's view.
这对卡普来说一直是个非常一贯的立场。
Then this is a very consistent position all along for Karp.
这与影响他对恐怖主义看法的观点如出一辙。
It's the same view that informed his view of terrorism.
如果左派人士不认真对待公共安全问题，选民就会转向重视这些问题的右派人士，而左派人士将不会喜欢这样的结果。
If people on the left don't take concerns about public safety seriously, voters are gonna turn to people on the right who do, and people on the left are not going to like the results.
有意思。
Interesting.
他将Palantir与ICE的合作视为边境安全理念的一部分，他认为这是一种进步立场。
He justifies the work Palantir is doing with ICE as very much fitting into this idea of securing the border, something he views as a progressive stance.
确实如此。
He does.
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他表示自己此刻就是进步派的战士。
He says at this time that he is the progressive warrior.
他才是真正的进步派。
He's the true progressive.
他在捍卫自由派声称珍视的价值观方面比他们做得更多。
He is doing more to defend the values that liberals claim to cherish than they are.
他认为Palantir公司，无论是协助执行移民法还是打击恐怖主义，都是在捍卫自由进步派的价值观。
He believes that Palantir, and whether it's helping enforce immigration laws or fighting terrorism, is defending liberal progressive values.
但他也因来自左翼的批评和针对他们的尖刻言论而感到刺痛。
But he's also stung by the criticism that he and Palantir are getting from the left by the vitriol directed at them.
随着时间的推移，他对民主党和左翼越来越感到失望。
And over time, he grows increasingly disenchanted with the Democrats and the left.
这种失望在拜登总统任期内不断加深，最终因一场重大事件而彻底与民主党决裂，那就是10月7日以色列发生的恐怖袭击。
Disenchantment that grows during the Biden presidency, and that culminates with a massive event that ends up cementing his break with the Democrats, the October 7 terrorist attack in Israel.
我们稍后回来。
We'll be right back.
嗨。
Hi.
我是伊万·佩恩。
I'm Ivan Penn.
我是《纽约时报》的能源记者。
I'm an energy reporter for The New York Times.
我认为很多人把电力视为理所当然，但它确实是当前一些重大事件中不可或缺的一部分。
I think a lot of people take electricity for granted, but it's an essential piece of some of the biggest stories right now.
人工智能的崛起、气候变化的威胁，以及普通民众因电费不断上涨而面临的实际困境。
The rise of artificial intelligence, the threat of climate change, and the real challenges that everyday people are facing with increasing electric bills.
我每天与专家交流，有时会前往非常偏远的地方，研究能源在这些重大问题中所扮演的角色。
I spend my days talking to experts, sometimes traveling to really remote places, and investigating the role that energy plays in these huge issues.
我只是《纽约时报》数百名记者中的一员，他们在各自报道领域都是专家，对新闻报道抱有同样的敬业精神。
I'm just one of hundreds and hundreds of journalists at the Times, experts in what they cover, who carry the same level of commitment to their reporting.
而这正是《纽约时报》的魅力所在。
And that's the beauty of The New York Times.
我们共同努力，帮助您更好地理解和把握当今世界。
We're all working together to help you better understand and make sense of the world today.
如果这听起来与您产生共鸣，而您尚未订阅，可以访问nytimes.com/subscribe。
So if that sounds like something that connects with you and you're not a subscriber yet, you can go to nytimes.com/subscribe.
好的，迈克尔。
Okay, Michael.
所以在2023年10月7日以色列遭受袭击时，你已经采访亚历克斯·卡普多年了。
So by the time of the October seventh attack on Israel in 2023, you'd been interviewing Alex Karp for several years.
那么在那之后你看到他有什么变化吗？
So how'd you see him change after that moment?
嗯，卡普被10月7日的事件震撼了，就像许多人一样。
Well, Karp is shaken by the events of October 7, as many people were.
他非常支持以色列。
He's very supportive of Israel.
他将以色列的安全视为非常个人化的问题。
He sees Israel's security in very personal terms.
他曾对我说过，如果情况不妙，以色列是他可以前往的地方。
At one point, he had said to me that if things go sideways, Israel's a place I can go.
因此，这与他作为犹太人所感受到的脆弱性紧密相连。
So it's very much bound up in this sense of vulnerability that he feels as someone who is Jewish.
而10月7日的事件将这些恐惧和脆弱感具象化了。
And October 7 just kind of crystallizes all these fear and sense of vulnerability.
他一度告诉我，这是生死攸关的局面，对他个人而言如此，对其他人亦是如此。
He says to me at one point, this is a survival situation, and he means that as much for himself as it is for other people.
他对这一时刻、这些袭击的强烈反应如何影响Palantir的工作？
And how does his really strong reaction to this moment, to these attacks, shape Palantir's work?
现在已经不存在左右逢源的情况了。
There is no such thing anymore of being on all sides.
Palantir只向西方盟友提供其产品。
Palantir only supplies its products to Western allies.
我为我们正以一切可能的方式支持以色列感到自豪。
I am proud that we are supporting Israel in every way we can.
Palantir在特拉维夫已经设有办事处。
Palantir already has an office in Tel Aviv.
该软件已被摩萨德使用多年。
Software has been used by the Mossad for a number of years.
但在10月7日事件后不久，公司就派遣了多名工程师前往，因为以色列国防军希望使用该软件。
But not long after October 7, it sends multiple engineers there because the Israeli defense forces want to use the software.
以色列国内情报机构辛贝特对此也表现出兴趣。
There's interest from Shin Bet, which is the domestic intelligence services.
卡普的观点是，我们将给予他们所需的一切。
And Karp's view is we're gonna give them anything and everything they need.
Palantir在《纽约时报》刊登整版广告，声明Palantir与以色列站在一起，这一信息不仅针对公众。
Palantir takes out a full page ad in the New York Times saying that Palantir stands with Israel, and this messaging is not just directed at the general public.
同时也针对Palantir员工，因为他私下对我说，他希望人们明白，尽管在特朗普首个任期内Palantir与ICE合作时他非常愿意容忍异议，但在10月7日后Palantir支持以色列的工作上，他实在没心情容忍任何内部不同意见。
It's also directed at Palantir employees because he says to me privately that he wants it understood that whereas he was very willing to tolerate the dissent back during the first Trump presidency over Palantir's work with ICE, He's really not in the mood to tolerate any internal dissent over the work Palantir is doing to support Israel after October 7.
你们是否因此立场而失去了员工？
Have you lost employees because of this stance?
有员工离职。
Lost employees.
我相信会有员工离职。
I'm sure we'll lose employees.
我确信我们会失去——你知道，如果你的立场从不因员工离职而付出代价，那就不算真正的立场。
I'm sure we'll lose you know, it's like, if you have a position that does not even cost you ever to lose an employee, it's not a position.
他明确表示，如果你无法认同我们的所作所为，那么Palantir可能不适合你。
He says very clearly, if you can't abide by what we're doing, then maybe Palantir isn't the place for you.
这一切的背景是，我们看到美国大学校园及其他地方针对以色列反击行动的抗议活动日益增多。
And all this is in a context in which we're seeing growing protests on college campuses and elsewhere in The US over Israel's response to these attacks.
对加沙地带的大规模轰炸。
The wide scale bombing of Gaza.
这正是当前最受关注的问题。
This is very much top of mind.
确实如此。
Exactly.
他对校园抗议活动感到愤怒。
And he is furious about the protests on campus.
我要告诉年轻人，当你们坐在精英学校里，假装因为刷了两次TikTok并在某篇疯狂论文上拿了A+就以为自己了解世界时，你们正在吸入一种危险、新型、虚假且自我毁灭的宗教毒气。
And I'm telling young people, you are breathing the vapors of a dangerous, new, fake, and, self destructive religion when you are sitting at your elite school pretending because you watched TikTok twice and got an A plus on some crazy paper that you actually understand the world.
在10月7日事件后他直言不讳，对校园抗议活动更是如此，利用一切可能的机会抨击抗议者，称他们妄想、被误导。
He is very outspoken in following October 7, very outspoken about the protests on campuses using every opportunity he can get to lash out at the protesters to say that they are delusional, that they are misguided.
他们看不到自己行为中的矛盾——一边撰写关于微观歧视的论文，一边公然排斥历史最悠久的少数群体。
And they don't see the contradiction in their behavior of writing papers about micro discrimination and then excluding the longest existing minority overtly.
他们完全没看出其中的矛盾。
They literally don't see the contradiction.
他认为抗议活动中充斥着反犹主义，非常危险，在他看来这反映了左翼思想中更广泛的腐朽。
He thinks the protests are riddled with antisemitism and are very dangerous, and he sees this as reflective of a broader rot in his mind on the left.
他仍然支持拜登总统。
He remains supportive of president Biden.
他已向拜登竞选团队捐款，并表示将继续这样做，因为拜登一直非常支持以色列政府，但总体上他对民主党不太满意。
He has written checks to the Biden campaign and says he's going to continue to do so because Biden has been very supportive of the Israeli government, but he's less happy with the Democratic Party in general.
他认为极左翼是在本末倒置，民主党的极左翼反以色列，现在正变得越来越反犹太。
He believes that the far left is the tail wagging the dog and that the far left of the Democratic Party is anti Israel and is now becoming increasingly antisemitic.
所以这个在左翼进步环境中长大的孩子，不再认为自己属于民主党的进步派系了。
So this kid who grew up a lefty progressive no longer really sees himself in the progressive wing of the Democratic Party.
没错。
That's right.
并非所有对以色列的批评都是反犹太主义，但其中比例比我们意识到的要高。
Not all criticism of Israel is antisemitism, but a larger portion of it is than we realized.
我们必须公开指出这一点。
And we have to call it out.
他参加了2023年12月在加利福尼亚举行的里根国家国防论坛活动。
And he goes to an event in California, the Reagan National Defense Forum in December 2023.
我是民主党最大的捐助者之一。
And I'm one of the largest donors to the Democratic party.
坦率地说，我正在公开批评，并且转而支持共和党。
And quite frankly, I'm calling it out, and I'm giving to Republicans.
如果你们继续这种行为，我将会改变立场。
If you keep up with this behavior, I'm gonna change.
许多像我这样的人都会改变立场。
A lot of people like me are gonna change.
我们必须明确指出这一点。
We have to really call this out.
这完全超出了底线。
It is completely beyond the bounds.
他表示希望民主党能以明确无误的措辞，毫不含糊地谴责抗议者的反犹行为，并认为必须制止这种现象。
That's And he says that he wants the Democratic party to speak in unambiguous terms, unambiguously denounce the protesters for being anti Semitic, and he thinks that needs to be shut down.
他还表示，如果不加以制止，他已准备好退出民主党。
And if it's not shut down, he's saying that he's prepared to walk away from the Democratic party.
他是否真的实施了这一威胁？
And does he make good on that threat?
是的。
Yes.
他在10月7日后开始更激进地向共和党捐款。
He starts donating much more aggressively to Republicans after October 7.
在我们私下交谈中，他明确表示对共和党更加看好。
And in the private conversations that he and I had, he makes clear that he is looking much more favorably on Republicans.
他甚至开始对特朗普再次当选总统的想法持开放态度。
And he's even warming to the idea of a second Trump presidency.
10月7日后不久我们有过一次谈话，他要求我不要录音但允许我做笔记。
Not long after October 7, we had a conversation, and he had asked me not to record the conversation but said I could take notes.
谈话中提到了特朗普的名字，他主动表示——这完全是自发说的。
And Trump's name comes up, and he says and and this was unprovoked.
我当时甚至什么都没说。
I didn't even say anything.
他说：我不认为特朗普是法西斯主义者。
And he says, I don't think Trump is a fascist.
我不认为特朗普是反犹分子。
I don't think Trump is an anti Semite.
我不认为特朗普是个偏执狂。
I don't think Trump is a bigot.
这感觉就像他在试图说服自己相信某些事情。
It really felt like he was trying to convince himself of something.
而且，你知道，在那一刻，我清楚地意识到他认为特朗普很可能会赢得2024年大选，并且在某种意义上，他正在说服自己支持这一结果。
And, you know, at that point, it became clear to me that he believed that Trump was likely to win the twenty twenty four election and that he was, in a sense, in a way, talking himself into getting behind that.
这想法有点疯狂，因为你知道，你告诉过我们在特朗普第一个任期内，卡普曾公开反对政府，反对特朗普本人。
It's kind of wild to conceive of because, you know, you told us that in the first Trump term, Karp was very open about being against the administration, against Trump himself.
你认为他试图说服自己支持特朗普，部分原因是他看到了那里可能存在的巨大商业机会吗？
Do you think he was trying to talk himself into supporting Trump in part because he saw there could be just a huge business opportunity there?
嗯，我认为他确实意识到这次他必须对特朗普说些好话。
Well, I think he certainly recognized that he was going to have to say nice things about Trump this time around.
要知道，在特朗普的华盛顿做生意的第一条规则就是不要惹恼特朗普。
Mean, the first rule of doing business in Donald Trump's Washington is don't piss off Donald Trump.
第二条规则是尽一切可能讨好特朗普。
The second rule is do everything you can to curry favor with Donald Trump.
而如果你是像Palantir这样的大型政府承包商，你尤其迫切需要讨好唐纳德·特朗普。
And if you're a major government contractor as Palantir is, you have the particularly acute need to curry favor with Donald Trump.
萨卡普意识到特朗普的第二个总统任期对Palantir来说可能是一个巨大的机会，于是他向特朗普-万斯就职委员会开出了一张百万美元的支票，而Palantir在特朗普第二个总统任期的头几个月里就达成了多项交易。
Sakharp recognizes that a second Trump presidency is potentially a huge opportunity for Palantir, And he writes a million dollar check to the Trump Vance Inauguration Committee, and Palantir lands a number of deals during the first months of Trump's second presidency.
其软件被Doge广泛使用。
Its software is used extensively by Doge.
它获得了陆军100亿美元的合同，还获得了与ICE的另一份合同。
It gets a $10,000,000,000 contract with the army, and it also gets another contract with ICE.
这笔3000万美元的资金用于协助驱逐出境。
This one for $30,000,000 to help with deportations.
而在这整个过程中
And amid all this
我要告诉你我认为特朗普做得非常非常好的一点。
I'll tell you something I think Trump does very, very well.
他说，我不会接受一个本质上会导致愚蠢结论的范式。
He says, I'm not gonna accept a paradigm that essentially leads to a stupid conclusion.
卡普开始公开歌颂特朗普。
Karp starts publicly singing Trump's praise.
说实话，我觉得他在这方面相当高明。
Honestly, I think he's quite brilliant at this.
公开场合对唐纳德·特朗普说了许多好话。
Saying lots of nice things about Donald Trump in public.
我非常支持总统的边境和国家安全政策。
I'm very supportive of the president's border and national security thing.
这确实是我真正关注的两件事。
It's really the only two things that I actually focus on.
从这个意义上说，我想我相当支持总统。
And I guess in that sense, I support the president a lot.
他表示，在目前最关心的边境和国家安全问题上，他认为特朗普做得非常出色。
Says that on the issues that are of paramount concern to him now, the border and national security, he thinks that Trump is doing a great job.
达成和平协议、关闭边境、削弱伊朗都是具有世界历史意义的成就，我不明白为何有人不愿承认这一点。
Getting the peace deal, closing the border, degrading Iran are world historic accomplishments, and I and I don't see why you wouldn't acknowledge that.
当在采访中被问及这是否代表他自身立场的重大转变时，他坚称并非如此。
And when confronted during interviews, if this represents a big shift in his own position, he insists no.
我没有改变我的政治立场。
I didn't shift my politics.
是政党改变了他们的政治立场。
The political parties have shifted their politics.
所谓进步主义的理念根本就是一场彻头彻尾的闹剧。
The idea that what's being called progressive is in any way progressive is a complete farce.
他继续坚称自己才是真正的进步派，并认为左翼已经不再进步了。
He continues to insist that he's a true progressive, and he thinks that the left has stopped being progressive.
我
I
在一个高度知识分子化、主要是犹太人、极其左翼的环境中长大。
grew up in a highly intellectual, mostly Jewish, incredibly left wing environment.
每个周六和周五，我都能听到关于保守派将如何通过非法移民摧毁这个国家的讲座，因为这将会破坏美国工人的社会结构。
And every Saturday and every Friday, I heard a lecture about how the conservatives are gonna destroy this country with illegal immigration because it's gonna undermine the fabric of the American worker.
这就是进步主义者的意义。
That's what it means to be a progressive.
进步主义并不意味着，哦，我总是感觉参与其中真好。
Being progressive doesn't mean just, oh, I always feel so good to be involved in this.
那么我想问，根据你为我们描绘的这家极具影响力的公司Palantir的发展轨迹，至少部分是由其CEO卡普的演变所驱动的。
So I wanna ask, given the trajectory that you've sketched out for us of this incredibly powerful company, Palantir, being driven, at least in part, by the evolution of its CEO, Karp.
我们一直在讨论Palantir的工作受到卡普个人政治立场的影响。
We've been talking about the work that Palantir does as being influenced by Karp's personal politics.
但我不得不问，你认为他从反特朗普到现在全力支持政府的转变纯粹是出于意识形态，还是为了金钱？
But I have to ask, do you see his journey from anti Trump to now all in on the administration as purely ideological, or is it about money?
因为这一转变显然为公司带来了巨大的利润。
Because the shift has obviously been incredibly profitable for the company.
这是两者的结合。
That's a combination of the two.
至于各自占多大比例，我实在说不准。
And what proportion of each, I can't really say.
我要说的是，
I will say this.
卡普之所以成为如此引人注目的人物，原因之一在于单纯的投机主义对他而言远远不够。
One of the things that makes Karp such an interesting figure is opportunism isn't good enough for him.
他必须找到一个意识形态上的理由，某种个人与理念交织的动机，才能真正投身于某项事业。
He has to find an ideological reason, something personal slash ideological to really get on board with something.
仅仅靠投机主义是行不通的。
It can't just be opportunism.
你看，许多科技巨头的高管在特朗普第二任期时纷纷站队支持，其中一些人的谄媚之态简直像汗水一样淋漓可见。
You see with, you know, a number of major tech executives have gotten on board with Trump the second time around, and with some of them, the cravenness drips off them like sweat.
卡普则有些不同。
Karp is a little different.
他找到了支持特朗普的理由，这些理由在他自己看来，超越了必要性和机会主义。
He has found reasons to get on board with Trump, reasons in his own mind, reasons that go beyond necessity and opportunism.
他认为特朗普是合适的人选。
He thinks Trump is the right guy.
在他声称关心的议题上，比如移民问题，他是否参与讨论人们提出的那些质疑——关于ICE利用其掌握的国内人员数据进行街头抓捕、拆散家庭这类行为？
On the issues he says he cares about, immigration, for example, does he engage at all on the questions that people are raising about ICE using the data that it has on the people in this country to, you know, snatch people off the streets, break up families, that kind of thing?
我和,, and he's kind of dismissive of those concerns.
He and I have had a number of conversations, and he's kind of dismissive of those concerns.
他其实不想谈论这些事。
He doesn't really wanna talk about them.
他会转移话题，说我和其他人只是患了'特朗普精神错乱综合症'。
And he he deflects them by saying that I and other people just have Trump derangement syndrome.
什么意思？
Meaning what?
意思是那些提出这些问题、表达这些担忧的人对特朗普充满敌意，愤怒让他们无法理性思考这些问题。
Meaning that the people who are raising these issues, raising these concerns are just so hostile to Trump, so blinded with rage at Trump that they can't think rationally about these issues.
但我也知道卡普对移民问题的看法已经改变，这要追溯到10月7日。
But I also know that Karp's views on immigration have changed, and this goes back to October 7.
在10月7日之前，他是这样看待移民问题的。
Before October 7, he saw the immigration issue.
他认为边境的混乱对民主党不利。
He saw the chaos at the border as bad for the Democrats.
10月7日之后，他也认为移民问题和边境问题对美国犹太人不利。
After October 7, he also sees the immigration issue and the border as bad for American Jews.
为什么？
Why?
因为他认为这就像捅了马蜂窝——失控的边境和大量非法移民正在激化美国人对多元化的反对情绪，在他看来这对犹太人非常不利。
Because he thinks it's poking the bear that an uncontrolled border, lots of illegal immigration is radicalizing Americans against diversity, which he sees as really bad for the Jews.
因为如果选民希望边境得到控制，而民选政府未能兑现他们的诉求，他们可能会转向更激进的解决方案。
Because if the voters want the border controlled and a democratically elected government doesn't deliver on what they want, they may turn to more radical solutions.
下一次的反扑可能会更加猛烈，人们可能会转向一个真正的独裁者，这在卡普看来对犹太人将极为不利。
The backlash next time may be even more severe, and people might turn to a genuine autocrat, which would be, in Karp's view, really bad for the Jews.
值得注意的是，有人认为唐纳德·特朗普虽然是民选总统，但其本身就在倾向使用独裁手段。
It's worth noting that there are people who believe that Donald Trump, while democratically elected, is leaning toward autocratic tactics himself.
听起来卡普并不认同这种观点。
And it sounds like Karp doesn't believe that.
他认为外面还有很多更糟糕的选择。
He believes there are many worse options out there.
他激烈反驳任何认为特朗普是独裁者或法西斯分子的说法。
He pushes back furiously against any suggestion that Trump is an autocrat or a fascist.
例如，最近在接受《纽约时报》安德鲁·罗斯·索尔金的采访时
In a recent interview with Andrew Ross Sorkin of the Times, for instance
好的。
Okay.
那么我想问你这个问题，这是个关于特朗普的问题。
So I wanna ask you this, and it's a Trump question.
有一种观点，我很好奇你的立场。
There's a view, and I'm curious where you land.
你认为特朗普总统是法西斯分子吗？
Do you think that president Trump is a fascist?
当然不是。
Of course not.
说实话，我觉得这很愚蠢。
I think that's stupid, honestly.
你知道吗？
And you know what?
再说一遍，你可以整天纠结于这些事情。
Again, you you can go all day on this stuff.
老实说，这简直荒谬至极。
It's it's honestly idiotic.
他表示，任何称特朗普是法西斯主义者的说法都是愚蠢的。
He said that any suggestion that Trump is a fascist is just stupid.
我人生的一半时间在德国度过。
I grew up half my life in Germany.
我曾与真正的法西斯主义者相处过。
I spent time with actual fascists.
我还去和许多前纳粹分子交谈过。
I went and talked to lots of former Nazis.
我们生活在一个民主社会，而且他以压倒性优势赢得了选举。
We have a democratic society, and, you know, he won in a landslide.
我没有。
I don't.
但你是否问过他关于极右翼中反犹主义势力抬头的问题？
But did you ask him at all about the rise of this anti Semitic wing of the far right?
我特别想到的是尼克·富恩特斯这个案例，这位白人至上主义者显然在年轻保守派男性中尤其受欢迎。
I'm thinking specifically in this case of Nick Fuentes, the white nationalist who is apparently quite popular with young conservative men in particular.
是的。
Yes.
我们讨论过此事，他也承认对此感到担忧。
We've discussed it, and he has admitted to being concerned about it.
我认为这在一定程度上解释了他为何如此坚定地支持唐纳德·特朗普。
And I think this goes some way to explaining why he is so ardently behind Donald Trump.
因为，他再次担心如果特朗普未能兑现竞选承诺，特别是在移民问题上，那么接下来发生的可能会更糟。
Because, again, he fears that if Trump doesn't deliver on his campaign promises, particularly on immigration, that what's gonna come after this could be even worse.
像富恩特斯那样的煽动者可能会掌权，卡普认为这对国家非常不利。
That a demagogue in the mold of a Fuentes or someone like that could come to power, which Karp thinks would be very bad for the country.
我认为他在某种程度上将帕兰提尔与特朗普政府合作的工作视为一种预防措施。
And I think he sees the work that Palantir is doing with the Trump administration as preventive in nature in some sense.
退一步说，迈克尔，你描述了卡普的转变过程，一个从进步派成长起来的人，现在却出来为特朗普一些最具侵略性的政策辩护。
Just to step back, Michael, you've described this evolution of Karp, a guy who grew up as a progressive and is now out defending Trump on some of his most aggressive policies.
我在想，我们应该如何看待卡普经营着一家实质上支持特朗普工作的公司这一事实。
I'm wondering how we should think about the fact that Karp is running a company that essentially enables Trump's work.
你认为卡普能否准确评估特朗普政府的政策何时可能侵犯民众的公民自由，或本质上变得更专制？
Do you think that Karp can accurately assess when the Trump administration's policies potentially tip over into violating people's civil liberties or potentially become more authoritarian in nature.
比如，你认为卡普是否愿意基本上执行特朗普政府要求他公司做的任何事？
Like, do you think Karp would be willing to do basically anything the Trump administration wants his company to do or not?
我不知道答案，这有点令人不安。
I don't know the answer to that, which is kind of unsettling.
我和他打交道已有六年了。
I've been talking to him for six years.
他在诸多议题上表达了非常坚定的立场，但无论是私下还是公开场合，他都未曾向我透露过他的底线是什么，即特朗普政府可能会采取哪些行动，导致他重新考虑Palantir与政府的合作。
He expresses very strongly held views on a range of issues, but he has not said to me in private nor has he said publicly what his red lines are, what things the Trump administration might do that would cause him to reconsider Palantir's work with the administration.
我理解他为何不愿明说，因为Palantir是重要的政府承包商，对卡普而言，公开说明哪些行为（比如ICE可能采取的措施）会导致Palantir重新考虑与ICE的合作并不符合他的利益。
I understand why he doesn't wanna say that because Palantir's a major government contractor, and it's not in Karp's interest to tell the world what things, for instance, ICE might do that would cause Palantir to reconsider its work with ICE.
但从很多方面来看，这归根结底是一个问题：你是否信任亚历克斯·卡普对我们所处时代的判断力？
But what this really comes down to in a lot of ways is, do you trust Alex Karp's judgment about the moment we're in?
这个人可是研究法西斯主义的学者。
This is someone who is a scholar of fascism.
他清楚这一切的表象和本质，却基本上是在要求我们相信眼前所见并非众人所惧——这不是初露端倪的威权主义，特朗普的总统任期也毫无异常之处。
He knows what it looks and sounds like, and he's basically asking us to believe that what we're seeing here is not what many people fear, that this is not incipient authoritarianism, that the Trump presidency is nothing out of the ordinary.
问题在于：你是否相信他的说辞？
And the question is, do you take his word for it?
因此在某种意义上，这确实归结为你对亚历克斯·卡普的信任程度——你有多相信他对特朗普及其政府推行政策的评估。
And so this really does come down in a certain sense to how much you trust Alex Karp, how much you trust his assessment of Donald Trump and of the policies the Trump administration is pursuing.
卡普曾非常坦率地表示，Palantir的技术既可用于善举，也可用于恶行。
Karp has said very candidly that Palantir's technology can be used for good or bad.
如果发生滥用行为，你相信亚历克斯·卡普会叫停帕兰提尔与政府机构的合作吗？
If abuse has happened, you trust Alex Karp to pull the plug on the work that Palantir is doing with government agencies?
你相信他能正确评估何时该采取行动吗？
And do you trust him to correctly assess when that's happening?
你最终是否相信他愿意牺牲帕兰提尔的商业利益来捍卫这些价值观？
And do you trust him ultimately to be willing to sacrifice Palantir's business interest in defense of those values?
好的，迈克尔，非常感谢你参加节目。
Well, Michael, thanks so much for coming on the show.
感谢您的邀请。
Thank you for having me.
我们稍后回来。
We'll be right back.
以下是今天您还需要了解的其他内容。
Here's what else you need to know today.
警方周一表示，好莱坞导演罗伯·莱纳与米歇尔·辛格·莱纳的儿子尼克·莱纳因涉嫌谋杀父母已被逮捕。
Nick Reiner, the son of the Hollywood director Rob Reiner and Michelle Singer Reiner, has been arrested on suspicion of murdering his parents, the police said on Monday.
这对夫妇于周日下午被发现死于他们在洛杉矶的家中。
The couple were found dead in their Los Angeles home on Sunday afternoon.
两位知情人士透露，他们是被刺身亡的。
Two people briefed on the case said they'd been stabbed to death.
罗伯·莱纳曾执导过一系列经典且深受喜爱的电影，包括《摇滚万岁》、《公主新娘》和《当哈利遇到莎莉》。
Rob Reiner directed a series of iconic and beloved films, including This Is Spinal Tap, The Princess Bride, and When Harry Met Sally.
米歇尔·辛格·莱纳曾是一名摄影师，后来成为制片人。
Michelle Singer Reiner was a photographer and later a producer.
他们32岁的儿子尼克多年来一直公开谈论自己与药物滥用和无家可归状态的抗争。
Their 32 year old son Nick had spoken out over the years about his struggles with drug abuse and bouts of homelessness.
警方表示他目前被关押且不得保释。
The police said he's being held without bail.
本期节目由凯特琳·奥基夫、里基·内维茨基和斯特拉·谭共同制作。
Today's episode was produced by Caitlin O'Keefe, Ricky Nevetsky, and Stella Tan.
节目由周丽莎编辑，苏珊·李负责事实核查，配乐来自马里昂·洛萨诺、帕特·麦库斯克、丹·鲍威尔和罗温·内米斯托，工程制作由艾丽莎·莫克斯利完成。
It was edited by Lisa Chow, fact checked by Susan Lee, contains music by Marion Lozano, Pat McCusker, Dan Powell, and Rowan Nemistow, and was engineered by Alyssa Moxley.
特别感谢拉丽莎·安德森。
Special thanks to Larissa Anderson.
以上就是今天的《每日新闻》。
That's it for The Daily.
我是娜塔莉·基切罗列夫。
I'm Natalie Kitcherolev.
明天见。
See you tomorrow.
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