《现代爱情》：布里奇特·埃弗雷特称挚友亦可成为你生命中的至爱

嗨，我是娜塔莉。整个夏天，如你所知，我们一直在为大家带来《现代爱情》的剧集。这是你最后一次在每日推送中听到《现代爱情》了。但你依然可以通过订阅节目链接每周获取新剧集，我强烈推荐你这么做。

Hey. It's Natalie. All this summer, as you know, we've been bringing you episodes of Modern Love. And this is the last week you'll hear Modern Love in the daily feed. But you can still find new episodes of the show every week by subscribing to Modern Love at the links in our description, something I highly recommend you do.

不过现在，我们有请《现代爱情》主持人安娜·马丁来到演播室。嗨，安娜。嗨，娜塔莉。快说说这周节目有什么内容吧。

But for now, we have Modern Love host, Anna Martin, here in the studio. Hey, Anna. Hey, Natalie. So tell me what's on the show this week.

本周我们将重温一场我特别喜爱的对话，嘉宾是电视剧《某处，某人》的主演布里奇特·埃弗里特。你看过那部剧吗？

So this week, we're bringing back a conversation I really love. It's with Bridget Everett, the star of the TV show Somebody Somewhere. Have you seen that show?

我看过。其实是我妻子拉着我看的，我们一致认为这可能是史上最温馨的剧集。没错，我是说——

I have seen that show. My wife actually made me watch that show, and we collectively decided that it is, I think, the sweetest show of all time. Yeah. I mean, it

它真的太暖心了。这部剧真正聚焦于友谊。布里奇特告诉我，她厌倦了影视作品总是围绕爱情关系，因为她认为友情同样具有震撼人心的力量。说得太对了。

it's so sweet. This is a show that really focuses on friendship. And when I talked to Bridget Everett, she said that she was tired of TV shows and movies mostly focusing on romantic relationships because she thinks that friendships can be just as powerful. So true. Yeah.

这种观点显然引起了包括你我在内众多观众的共鸣。今年她还凭借该剧剧本与编剧团队获得了艾美奖提名。她深入探讨了亲密友谊在自己人生中的意义。值得一提的是，她还为我们即兴演唱了几句，非常特别。

And I that point of view certainly resonated clearly with you, with with myself, with viewers. And she's actually nominated for an Emmy this year for her writing on the show alongside her co writers. And and she really dove deep into the role close friendship plays in her own life. I will also say she did a little singing for us, which is very special.

太棒了。嗯。好的，安娜·马丁，感谢你整个夏天为我们带来《现代爱情》。不客气。

That is amazing. Mhmm. Alright. Anna Martin, thank you for bringing us Modern Love all summer. Of course.

各位听众，现在请欣赏本周的《现代爱情》。

And everyone, here is this week's Modern Love.

此刻相爱

Love now

直至永恒。最终坠入爱河的爱情胜过一切。为了爱。爱。他们爱你胜过世间万物。

and eternal. Fall in love last Love was stronger than anything. For the love. Love. And they love you more than anything.

爱。依然有爱。爱。

Love. There's still love. Love.

这里是《纽约时报》的安娜·马丁为您带来的《现代爱情》。在HBO剧集《某处某人》中，布里奇特·埃弗里特饰演一位名叫萨姆的40岁女性。萨姆一直热爱歌唱，但随着时间的推移，她失去了自信，放弃了音乐。

From the New York Times, I'm Anna Martin. This is modern love. In the HBO series, somebody somewhere, Bridget Everett plays a 40 woman named Sam. Sam has always loved to sing. But over time, she's lost her self confidence and given up on music.

当萨姆与由杰夫·希勒饰演的温柔支持型男性乔尔成为挚友后，她开始重建自我。乔尔甚至让她重新开口唱歌。

After Sam becomes best friends with a sweet, supportive man named Joel, played by Jeff Hiller, she starts to build herself back up. He even gets her to sing again.

今晚我们请来了全世界我最爱的歌手之一——萨姆·派尔，快上来吧。不。在这片骄傲的土地上，我们茁壮成长。我们始终被需要着。

One of my favorite singers in the entire world is here with us tonight. Sam Pyre, come on up here. No. In this proud land, we grew up strong. We were wanted all along.

这两个人

The two

变得如此亲密，他们甚至会在吃完可疑的开胃菜'圣路易斯寿司'后，从厕所里互相打电话。

of them become so close, they even call each other from the toilet after eating a questionable hors d'oeuvre called St. Louis sushi.

如果你敢把刚才我菊花发生的事告诉任何人，我就过去。哦不，老兄。这真是亲密关系的新高度。

If you ever tell anybody what just happened to my asshole, I will come over. Oh no, Cholo. This is a new level of intimacy.

观看《某处某人》的过程，就是爱上这对朋友并希望他们之间的情谊不受任何阻碍的过程。所以我想和布里奇特聊聊，如果我们愿意在生活中为挚友留出空间，这种友谊能有多重要。布里奇特还将朗读一篇关于两位挚友的文章，他们的羁绊如此之深，或许我们需要创造一个新词来定义它。布里奇特·埃弗里特，欢迎来到《现代爱情》。嗨。

To watch somebody somewhere is to fall in love with these two friends and to hope that nothing gets in the way of what they share together. So I wanted to talk to Bridget about how central a best friendship can be if we're willing to make the space for it in our lives. And Bridget reads an essay about two friends with a bond so close, maybe we need a new word to define it. Bridget Everett, welcome to Modern Love. Hi.

非常高兴你能来录音棚。你主演的《某处某人》目前正在播出第三季也是最终季。我超爱这部剧，但有个问题一直困扰着我。我觉得很难用单一类型来界定这部剧。

I'm so happy you're in the studio with us. So the show you star on, somebody somewhere, is currently on its third and final season. I love this show, but I'm really struggling with something. I hope you'll help me out. I find it tough to categorize the show in terms of genre.

我总想称它为浪漫喜剧，但它又像群像生活剧，有时还是音乐剧。你会如何描述这部剧？

I'm like, I wanna call it a romantic comedy, but it's also sort of like an ensemble slice of life. At times, it's a musical. How would you describe the show?

唉，我也很难描述它，也许这就是为什么我们的观众如此小众。不知道，我觉得就像人们说的‘悲喜剧’，但更像是生活的一个切片。嗯，有些温情时刻，也有些...比如放屁的场景，我正想说这个。

Well, I have a terrible time describing it too, so maybe that's why we have such an intimate audience. I don't know. I think of it as, you know, people say dramedy, but kind of just a slice of life Mhmm. Some tender moments, some you know, and maybe a fart. I was gonna say

一些温情时刻，然后第二季再来个大型腹泻场景。

some tender moments and then, like, a big diarrhea scene in season two.

对啊，因为那才是真实的生活。

Yeah. Because that's real life.

当然了，这就是真实的生活。

Of course, it's real life.

可能对你来说不是，但对我认识的一些人来说确实是。

Maybe not for you, but for, you know, people I know.

圣路易斯寿司？真有这种东西吗？

Saint Louis sushi. Is that a real thing?

有啊。我朋友拉里·克罗恩，这是他派对上的招牌菜。他总是端着他那个小帐篷似的东西到处转，其实就是火腿裹着奶油芝士再裹着腌黄瓜。懂了吧。而且你知道吗？

Yeah. My friend, Larry Cron, it's one of his signature dishes at parties. You know, he always passes around his little canopy or whatever, but it's it's it's basically ham wrapped around cream cheese wrapped around a pickle. Got it. And you know what?

每次都大受欢迎。

It's it's always a hit.

不，重点是听起来真的很好吃。

No. It sounds so good is the thing.

是啊。但在节目里我们得把它弄得更有趣些。

Yeah. But, you know, on the show, we had to kind of, you know, make it fun.

你非得让它有趣。你的意思是，你得塞进很多放屁的桥段。好吧。你在《某人某地》中饰演的角色叫萨姆·嗯。这个角色某种程度上取材于你自己的生活。

You had to make it fun. By that, you mean, you had to fill it with a lot of farts. Okay. Your character on Somebody Somewhere is a woman named Sam Mhmm. Who is somewhat inspired by your own life.

和你一样，萨姆在剧集设定的堪萨斯州曼哈顿长大。萨姆热爱唱歌，但对此充满恐惧和自我怀疑。而你布里奇特，有首卡巴莱歌曲自豪地描述了乳房的各种形状和尺寸。我爱那首歌。你在舞台上简直无所畏惧。

Like you, Sam grew up in Manhattan, Kansas where the show takes place. Sam loves singing, but she has a lot of fear and self doubt around it. Whereas you, Bridget, have a a cabaret song where you proudly describe all the shapes and sizes boobs come in. I love that song. You just seem fearless on stage.

你生活中是否也有过萨姆那样的自我怀疑？

Have you ever had any of Sam's self doubt in your own life?

当然。我和萨姆的许多共同点，很明显就是对唱歌的热爱。嗯。萨姆唱歌时整个人都鲜活起来，我也有同感。我觉得自己能与她产生共鸣。

Sure. I mean, a lot of a lot of what I have in common with Sam is, you know, obviously, the love of singing. And Mhmm. You know, Sam really comes alive when she sings, and I feel the same way. I feel like I connect.

唱歌时我仿佛接通了生命之源。通过唱歌我能以其他方式无法达成的方式连接自己的情感。没错。我也像她一样在与自我价值感抗争。嗯。

I kinda plug into life when I'm singing. There's a way that I can connect to my emotions when I'm doing that that I can't sometimes do otherwise. Right. And I also struggle with the self worth like she does. Mhmm.

所以在这三季剧情中，当她逐渐承认自己正在克服的问题时——她不会直接说'我是萨姆，我有自我怀疑'——我们看着她努力突破这些障碍，而我从她身上学到很多。有时候写完场景我会想，天啊，我真希望能像萨姆那样。

So over the course of these three seasons, as she is acknowledged kind of to herself what she's working through, mean, she doesn't say, oh, I'm Sam, and I have self doubt. Know, we sort of see her trying to push through some of that, and and I've learned a lot from her. Like, sometimes we write the scenes, and I'm like, man, I wish I could be like Sam.

你是否曾经...我知道这是松散的自传体，但剧集毕竟是虚构作品。可你说从萨姆身上学到东西。有没有具体将剧中她领悟的道理应用到自己生活中？比如做某件事时突然想到：哇，这是我从《某人某地》里萨姆这个角色身上学到的。

Have you ever have you ever applied I mean, I know it's, like, loosely autobiographical, but, of course, the show is a work of fiction. But you're saying that you've learned things from Sam. Yeah. Have you ever found yourself quite literally applying, like, a lesson that she's learned in the show to your own life? Like, you ever do something in your life and think, wow.

我...我从萨姆身上学到了这个，我在《某人某地》里饰演的角色。

I I learned this from Sam, my character in Somebody Somewhere.

绝对有。第二季里萨姆说过一句话，她说'不、不、不交新朋友'。

Absolutely. There there's something that Sam says in season two. She's like, n n n p. No new people.

没错。

Yes.

这有点像我的状态。比如，我有很多朋友，生活已经足够充实。嗯。但我就是有社交焦虑。

And that's kinda like me. Like, I I have a lot of friends. My life is full enough. Mhmm. And I just I'm socially anxious.

明白吗？很多人都是这样，所以我宁愿不主动社交。但Sam在第三季里，开始允许更多人走进她的生活和内心。说实话，我自己也一直在努力做到这点。

You know? Many people are, so I just like, I'd just rather not. But Sam, in especially in season three, is allowing more people into her life and into her heart. And I think that I have honestly been trying to work on that myself.

有意思。所以你的意思是，第二季里Sam奉行着'不结识新朋友'的生活信条，而第三季我们看到她逐渐重新敞开心扉？

Interesting. Okay. So what you're saying is in season two, Sam kind of adopts this, yeah, life ethos, I don't know, mantra, no new people meeting no new friends. But then in season three, we see her sort of open

对。

Yeah.

重新开放自己。你是说你现在生活中也在尝试这样做？

Back up again. And you're saying that you're trying to do the same thing in your life right now?

因为对我和Sam来说，如果你是个自我价值感低的人，每次认识新朋友时都会想'他们会看到我的缺陷'。或者'他们会发现我讨厌自己的那些部分'。

Because I think for me and for Sam, it's like, you know, if you're somebody that does struggle with self worth, every time you meet somebody, you're like, they're gonna see the cracks. Yeah. Totally. Or that they'll just see what I don't like about myself.

确实如此。

Of course.

懂吧？我觉得Sam就是这种心态。所以她觉得'有这个人让我感觉良好，那个人让我感到安全'。嗯。

You know? And I think Sam feels that way. So she's like, I've got this person that makes me feel good. This person makes me feel safe. Mhmm.

这就是为什么第一季她姐姐去世时如此崩溃——因为姐姐爱她的全部，包括缺点。而Joel也是无条件爱她。你知道，不是每个人走进房间时都相信别人会喜欢自己。

And that was why it was so devastating in season one while why her sister died because her sister loved her warts and all. Right. You know? And and Joel, he loves her warts and all. And, you know, I I think it's just something that not everybody walks into a room and and thinks people are gonna like them.

是啊，确实。

Yeah. Yeah.

是啊。可能大多数人都不这样。我真的不知道。

Yeah. Maybe most people don't. I really don't know.

我...我觉得大多数人不会。我肯定不会。但你说得太对了。在第三季，也就是《某人某处》当前这一季里，我们看到那种保护壳开始以最好的方式出现裂痕。

I I don't think most people do. I certainly don't. But you're so right. In season three, this this current season of somebody somewhere, we see that that sort of protective shield start to crack in the best way.

没错。她害怕极了，但她还是这么做了，

Yeah. And she's terrified, but it's but she does it anyway,

这就是

which is

本季的主题是逆势成长。我觉得...我太爱这个主题了。

the theme of this season is growth against all odds. And I think that that is I love that.

这是你们在编剧室里定的主题吗？比如'逆势成长'这种说法？

Is that something you said in, like, the writer's room, growth against all odds?

是的。而且我现在有那条项链了，虽然现在没戴着。

It is. And I and I do have the necklace now, and I'm not wearing it right now.

等等。停一下。你该戴着那条...等等。有条项链上写着'逆势成长'？

Wait. Stop. You should have worn wait. There's a necklace that says growth against all odds.

那得先

That's lot put on

把项链戴上。

the necklace.

不，是G A A O。我有一条项链。我还有个金马桶，显然是第二季的。然后第一季我有A A 1，因为我在通告单上排名第一。

No. It's g a a o. I have one necklace. I also have a golden toilet, which is obviously from season two. And then from season one, I have a a one because I'm number one on the call sheet.

我当时就想，这种机会可能不会再有了，所以我要给自己买条项链。我

And I was like, this may never happen again, so I'm buying myself a necklace. I am

真遗憾你没把三样都戴上。

so sad that you didn't wear all three.

我知道。平时我都会戴的，但今天不知怎么...我也不知道为什么今天没戴。你知道，我周一开工有点早。

I know. I normally do, but I just I don't know. I don't know why I didn't do it today. I was you know, I got Monday started kinda early.

你事情太多了。我还想说我很喜欢这个——你们用了好多缩写词。我刚意识到'NNP'是新人的意思。

You got a lot of things going on. I also wanna say I love it. There's a lot of acronyms. I'm realizing no new people, NNP.

还有'AGG'，代表'All Glory to God'（一切荣耀归于上帝），这个说得比较快。但我平时就这么说话的，这算是我的

There's AGG. There's all glory to god, which is, something that kinda goes by pretty quick. But but I I talk that way. That that's that's kinda my

你是个爱用缩写的姑娘？

You're an acronym gal?

对啊。'DDHD'是我的座右铭。从LL Cool J那儿学来的——Dreams Don't Have Deadlines（梦想没有截止日）。这真是

Yeah. DDHD is my theme. You know, got that from LO Cool J. Dreams don't have deadlines. And this is such

发现你这个特点真有意思。

a fun thing to figure out about you.

我和Murray Hill每天都互发'RFB'——Ready For Bed（准备睡觉）。

Murray Hill and I text each other every day, r f b, ready for bed.

默里·希尔也在剧中饰演弗雷德。我超爱《准备入睡》。对，简称RFB。没错。

Murray Hill also stars on the show as as Fred. I love Ready for Bed. Yeah. RFB. Yeah.

你提到过萨姆和她好友乔尔（由杰夫·希勒饰演）的关系。对于还没看过《某人某处》的观众，你会如何描述萨姆和乔尔的关系？这是段友谊，但远不止于此。

You've talked a bit about the relationship between Sam and her best friend Joel played by Jeff Hiller. For people who have not had the pleasure of seeing somebody somewhere, how would you explain who Sam and Joel are to each other? It's a friendship, but there's there's so much more there.

是的。我觉得萨姆失去了姐姐后，乔尔悄然进入她的生活，他有着无法抗拒的魅力，既迷人又有趣。他的笑容能点亮所有人。

Yeah. I I think, you know, Sam has lost her sister and and, you know, it was everything to her, and then Joel kinda sneaks in, and he's so undeniable. He's so charismatic and charming. And Smile just lights smile lights everyone up. Yeah.

他笑声很有感染力，为人善良。而她则带点锋芒。最重要的是两人之间有温暖默契的化学反应。即使她有时情绪过激，他依然爱她——这出乎她的预料。

And he's got a great giggle, and and he's kind, and she's kinda, like, little, like you know, got a little more of an edge. But most importantly, there's a really wonderful warm chemistry between the two of them. Yeah. And and even when she kind of gets reactive or reactionary, he still loves her. He's not gonna dump her, which she thinks that he's gonna do.

她就像裸露的神经末梢，而乔尔照顾她的方式让我动容。这段关系最打动我的是：人到四十还能遇见如此重要的挚友，这打破了'不交新朋友'的规则，且成为萨姆生活的核心支柱。

So and and she's so you know, she's such a raw nerve, and and I don't know. Just the way that Joel takes care of her is very moving to me. And I what I love about the relationship is, you know, sometimes you don't expect that you're gonna meet such a central relationship to your life in your forties, and I think that's incredible. It goes against the NNP, no new people, but I just I just love it. And I also love that it's it's a real primary thing for Sam.

对她而言，朋友就是家人。

Like, her friends are her people.

确实。

Right.

她寻求的不是爱情，嗯...而是在寻找人生知己，而乔尔正是这个人。

And it's not like she's looking for a romantic love. She's Mhmm. She's looking for her person. And and that's kind of what she is finding in Joel.

对，她的知己。这种'人生挚友可以是朋友'的理念，我觉得堪称颠覆性的认知重构。

Yeah. Her person. I mean, I think it's a really I don't know if I I'll say, like, kind of radical reframe, the idea that your person can be a a friend.

完全同意。这不妨碍你拥有浪漫关系，不妨碍酒吧小酌后在巷子里亲热。但本剧核心是友情而非俗套爱情——不是那种'女孩遇见白马王子'的戏码，而是更特别的羁绊，这也是我们待会儿要讨论的文章精髓。

Absolutely. And it doesn't mean that you can't have, you know, romantic relationships, and you can't, you know, have a couple rolls in the hay and a little, you know, a little smoochy smooch in the alley after a couple drinks at a bar. But but I think that for me, it was really important that this show be about the friendship and not about, like, girl meets boy, boy in in the way that a you know, you meet a guy and, you know, all of a sudden, he thinks you're beautiful. You fall in love in that way. It's this is a different kind of love, which is, you know, why, you know, love the essay that we're gonna be talking about later.

不过确实。

But yeah.

是的。我们稍后就要去听散文朗诵了。但在那之前，我想聊聊剧中的一个时刻，我认为这完美体现了你所说的那种朋友之间的爱。新季初期，山姆帮助乔尔的男友布拉德秘密创作了一首情歌，作为给乔尔的惊喜。首先，山姆这个举动本身就很暖心，但更令人动容的是——我们曾亲眼目睹她因乔尔恋爱后陪伴减少而挣扎。

Yeah. And we're gonna go to the essay reading in just a bit. But before we do, I wanna talk about a moment on the show that I think is the epitome of this kind of love between friends that you're talking about. Early in this new season, Sam helps Joel's boyfriend, whose name is Brad, write a love song as a as a secret surprise for Joel. And first of all, that's already a nice enough gesture from Sam, but it means even more because we've seen her really struggle with the fact that Joel is now in a couple and and isn't around for her as much.

能说说派对现场吗？当布拉德站起来要为乔尔演唱这首情歌时发生了什么？

Can you tell us what happens when they're all at the party and Brad gets up to sing this love song for Joel?

没错。由才华横溢却未被充分赏识的蒂姆·巴格利饰演的布拉德——也就是乔尔的男友。嗯。剧中乔尔的男友起身演唱这首歌。

Yeah. The character of Brad played by the wonderful and underutilized Tim Bagley That's Joel's boyfriend. Yeah. Mhmm. The play is Joel's boyfriend, gets up to sing this song.

他深爱乔尔，但从未公开表达过这份感情。此刻他要在乔尔的朋友和教会同伴面前表白。刚开口他就哽咽了——这让我想起中西部（或许其他地方也如此）的特有场景：我哥哥在女儿婚礼上致辞时，刚说'我就想...'就泣不成声，你们懂的，就是那种情绪决堤的瞬间。

And he loves Joel, but he hasn't really been able to hurt or had the need to say that publicly. And he's doing it in front of Joel's friends and his church friends. And as soon as he starts to try to speak, he's so overwhelmed. And it reminds me of a very it's a very Midwestern thing and probably other places too. But when my brother did the toast at his daughter's wedding, he was like, okay, I just wanna And he, like it's just like you you know that thing, like and he couldn't talk.

就像...你知道那种感觉，整个人都被淹没了

It was just like, you know, you got huge

情绪全堵在喉咙里了。

The emotion is caught in the throat.

噢。就是这种难以承受的瞬间。

Oh. That's exactly the thing when it's too much.

对。

Yeah.

最打动我的是山姆立即站到他身旁，仿佛在说'我会帮你完成这个仪式'——因为她明白这对乔尔意味着什么。而她...

And and what I love about it is, like, that Sam is right there with him, and she's like, I'm gonna help you get through this because she knows what it's gonna mean to Joel. And she

她跳进来，开始为他唱歌。

jumps in, and she starts singing for him.

是的。她知道乔尔有多特别。所以任何时候她能表达这一点，分享这一点，尤其是通过音乐，她都会这么做。

Yeah. She knows how special Joel is. And so anytime that she can communicate that, share that, especially through music, she's gonna do it.

布里奇特，如果你愿意的话，能唱一句就太棒了，但我不确定你今天是否准备好唱歌了。

Bridget, would you mind if you want, it would be amazing to hear, like, a line, but I don't know if you're prepared to sing today.

你喜欢这首歌的开头吗？

Do you like the beginning of

这首歌？

the song?

我很乐意。好的。当然。清晨醒来，我看见你的脸。我是全人类中最幸运的家伙。

I would love to. Okay. Sure. I wake in the morning and I see your face. I'm the luckiest guy in the entire human race.

一杯咖啡或去趟商店。我会花上永远，然后再多花些时间。但你看着我的样子，我无法形容，但我知道那是爱。哦，爱。爱。

A cup of coffee or a trip to the store. I'll take forever, and then I'll take some more. But, oh, the way you look at me, I can't explain it, but I know it's love. Oh, love. Love.

这是第一段。

That's the first one.

天啊。别这样对我。我不知道这是什么，天哪。这些歌词是你写的。

Oh my gosh. Don't do this to me right now. I don't know what it is so god. And you wrote these lyrics.

嗯。

Mhmm.

这如此简单，却又完美。当然，表面上看这是一首情歌，你知道的，一个男人对另一个男人，两个彼此相爱的男人之间的歌。但我也说不清。就像，我真的

It is so simple, and it's perfect. Of course, this is a love song ostensibly for, you know, one man to another man, you know, between two men who love each other. But also, I don't know. Like, I I really

能感受到山姆对乔尔的爱。

feel Sam's love for Joel.

是啊。还有她看他的那种眼神。绝对没错。

Yeah. And the way that she's looking at him. Absolutely.

没错。我百分之百同意。

Yeah. Abs I 100% agree.

非常感谢你演唱这首歌。能在现场听你演唱，我真心感到无比荣幸。我是认真的。好吧。这确实是个难以超越的表演。

Thank you so much for singing that. I really feel grateful to be in the room when you do that. I am serious. Okay. That is that's a tough act to follow.

你今天来还要帮我们另一个忙，就是朗读一篇现代爱情散文。在开始之前，你想说说为什么选这篇吗？

You are also here to do us another favor, which is to read a modern love essay. Do you wanna say anything about this essay before you get into it? Why you chose it?

呃，我选它是因为标题——《当你最伟大的浪漫是段友谊》。这让我感同身受。读完觉得这是对两个非恋人关系者之间，甜蜜又动人的深刻剖析。

Well, I I I chose it because, you know, the title, When Your Greatest Romance Is a Friendship Yeah. Because it's something that I can relate to. And and I read it. I thought it was such a sweet and moving examination of two people, not romantically linked. I don't know.

我觉得这真的很特别。

I just thought it was really special.

稍后我们将请布里奇特·埃弗里特为大家朗读今天的现代爱情散文。请不要走开。好的布里奇特，接下来请你为我们朗读小说家维克多·洛达托的现代爱情散文，你准备好了就可以开始。

We'll be back in just a minute with Bridget Everett reading today's modern love essay. Stay with us. Okay. Bridget, you are about to read a modern love essay for us by the novelist Victor Lodato whenever you're ready.

「你人生最伟大的浪漫是段友谊。」「这是你孙子吗？」当奥斯汀和我外出时，常有人这样问她。「不，亲爱的。他是我朋友。」

One of your greatest romance is a friendship. Is this your grandson? People sometimes ask Austin when she's out with me. No, honey. He's my friend.

这时，人们通常会勉强笑笑然后转身走开，或许担心这位老太太和坐在吧台咯咯笑如少年般的年轻男子之间不止是友谊。我们为何发笑？我也说不上来。常常，我们的欢愉似乎源于内心深处对彼此相伴的喜悦。认识奥斯汀时，我四十出头，本无意结交朋友。

At this point, folks usually smile tightly and turn away, perhaps worried there is more than friendship going on between the old lady and the younger man seated at the bar, giggling like teenagers. Why we're giggling? I couldn't tell you. Often, our mirth seems fueled by some deep cell delight at being together. When I met Austin, I was in my early forties and not looking for a friend.

我独自来到这个俄勒冈小镇完成一本书。所以当这个瘦削的蓝眼睛陌生人敲门，自称是对面邻居，问我是否愿意去看看她的花园，或许喝杯金汤力时，我礼貌回绝了。但望着她穿着天鹅绒拖鞋和皱巴巴衬衫离去的背影，我感到一阵莫名的刺痛，一种缓慢蔓延的忧伤——或许称之为孤独最为贴切。突然间，我冲上土路道歉，解释她来时我正在工作，但确实乐意参观她的花园。“金汤力就免了。”她说。

I'd come alone to this small Oregon town to finish a book. So when a bony, blue eyed stranger knocked at my door, introducing herself as the lady from across the way, and wondering if I might like to come over and see her garden, maybe have a gin and tonic, I politely declined. Watching her walk away though in her velvet slip ons and wrinkled blouse, I felt a strange pang, a slow pin of sadness that I suppose could be best described as loneliness. Suddenly, was dashing into the dirt road to say that I was sorry, that she had caught me in the middle of work, but that, yes, I would enjoy seeing her garden. Not the gin and tonic, she said.

“哦当然，那个也要。”我红着脸回答。还没等我提议下周拜访，她就说：“那几小时后见？四点半如何？”我不得不佩服她的时间观念。

Oh, sure. That too, I answered, blushing. And before I could suggest a visit the next week, she said, so I'll see you in a few hours then. Shall we say 04:30? I had to admire her sense of time.

“下周是留给能拖延的人用的。”八十多岁的奥斯汀显然没有这种奢侈。“我喜欢你的脸。”她后来承认，说是在信箱旁注意到我的。她倒着金酒时，我说我也在信箱旁见过她，同样喜欢她的脸。“真希望我的眉毛好看些。”她说。

Next week is for someone who can afford to put things off. Austin, in her eighties, surely felt no such luxury. I liked your face, she admitted later, telling me she had spotted me at the mailbox. As she poured the gin, I told her that I'd seen her at the mailbox as well, and I liked her face too. I wish I had better eyebrows, she said.

“它们曾经美极了。”她的花园令人震撼，像是幻想而非栽种的产物，如同疯帽匠的哥特仙境，充满野性的优雅。暮色中，鹿群来啃食海棠花。微醺的我们聊了数小时，转眼又在厨房准备晚餐。这位退休心理学家游历甚广，说着蹩脚的西班牙语和更糟的法语，如今是位画家。

They used to be fabulous. Her garden was astounding, like something dreamed rather than planted, a Mad Hatter Gothic in which a lawless grace prevailed. At dusk, the deer arrived, nibbling the crabapple blossoms. We had been talking for hours, slightly tipsy, and then we were in the kitchen cooking dinner. A retired psychologist, Austen had traveled extensively, spoke terrible Spanish and worse French, and was a painter now.

她有两任丈夫，第二位就是在这栋房子的客厅小床上离世的。“我也会这样。”奥斯汀告诉我，“这个房间光线最好。”我们望向窗户，但暮光已逝。能如此自然而然地共享静默，感觉是个吉兆。

She had two husbands, the second of whom died in this house, in a small bed in the living room. That's what I'll do, Austin told me. This room gets the best light. We turned to the windows, but the light was already gone. That we could be quiet together so soon and without strain felt auspicious.

“所以你算是离家出走。”有次她说。我们的互动让我想起童年友谊，那时百无禁忌。谈及宗教，她自称无神论者。我坦言被罗马天主教成长的幽灵困扰。她说姐妹们相信地狱，为她的灵魂担忧。

So you've run away from home, she said at one point. There was something about our interaction that reminded me of friendships from my childhood, in which no question was off limits. On religion, she claimed to be an atheist. I admitted to being haunted by the ghosts of a Roman Catholic upbringing. She said her sisters believed in hell and worried about her soul.

但奥斯汀似乎无所畏惧，尤其不怕死亡。我说自己仍怕黑。“独居会让人变得古怪。”她说道。我笑着转移话题，说想看她画的画。后来穿过土路回到克雷格列表转租的屋子时，我困惑着自己究竟在做什么。

Austen, though, seemed afraid of nothing, least of all death. I said I was still afraid of the dark. Living alone, she said, it can make you funny. I laughed but changed the subject, telling her I would like to see her paintings. Later, crossing the road back to my Craigslist sublet, I wondered what I was doing.

我提醒自己原计划是隐居，沉浸书稿梦境。我来此非为社交。几个月完成初稿就能回家。况且若真需要伴，大可以找个同龄人喝啤酒——而非在老太太的花园里喝金汤力，这不在计划内。

I reminded myself of my plan, hiding out, staying in the dream of the book. I wasn't here to socialize. I could finish a draft in a few months and head back home. Besides, if I wanted a friend during my retreat, I would find someone my age to throw back beers with. Gin and tonics with an old lady in her garden, and that was not the plan.

但下个周末我又和她共进晚餐，后来成了每周惯例。奥斯汀的老友们很困惑：“他在帮你修电脑吗？”当我首次向城外朋友提起她时，他们都以为我交了新男友。

But there I was the next weekend having dinner with her, and then it was every weekend. Austin's older friends seemed confused. Is he helping you with a computer? One asked. When I first started talking about Austin to my out of town friends, they assumed I'd found a new boyfriend.

奥斯汀是位女性，我得说。而且她已经八十多岁了。她只是我的一个朋友。即便他们回应说‘那很酷’，我几乎能听到他们在想，俄勒冈州的选择肯定很少。我想，令人困惑的不是两个年龄相差如此之大的人成为了朋友，而是我们实际上已成了最好的朋友。

Austin's a woman, I would say. Besides, she's in her eighties. She's just a pal. Even as they replied, that's cool, I could almost hear them thinking, must be Slim Pickens out in Oregon. What was perplexing, I suppose, was not that two people of such different ages had become friends, but that we had essentially become best friends.

其他人将我们的亲密关系视为怪异或离奇，就像那些不太可能的动物友谊，比如一只猴子和一只鸽子。诚然，当我在镜中看到我们时，也察觉到了我们的奇特之处。这位活力四射的白发小精灵，穿着鲜艳的衣服，戴着粗犷风格的珠宝，与一个穿着土褐色毛衣、戴着克拉克·肯特式眼镜的黑发男子坐在一起。也许我看起来像个书呆子小白脸，或是这位女士的贴心秘书。即使在外人眼中我们毫无道理可言，这也不重要。

Others regarded our devotion as either strange or quaint, like one of those unlikely animal friendships, a monkey and a pigeon perhaps. Admittedly, when I would spot us in a mirror, I saw how peculiar we were. This vivacious white haired imp in her bright colors and chunky style jewelry, sitting with a dark haired man in his drab earth tone sweaters and Clark Kent glasses. Maybe I looked like some nerdy gigolo or this woman's attentive secretary. If we made no sense from the outside, it didn't matter.

我们大多时候只是看着对方。一天晚上，奥斯汀聊起了她作为学术界中年妻子的生活。‘我完全错过了六十年代的狂野，’她说。我告诉她我也错过了。‘你那时还没出生呢，’她说，‘或者刚刚出生。’

We were mostly looking at each other. One night, Austen chatted about her life as a middle aged wife in academia. I completely missed out on the wildness of the sixties, she said. I told her I'd missed out too. You weren't born yet, she said, or hardly.

我们经常一起做饭，就像第一晚那样，之后她会给我看她正在创作的任何画作。应她的要求，我也开始给她朗读我正在写的书。我们互相给予反馈。我们的作品都进步了。当我的六个月租约到期时，我续签了。

Often, we cooked together as we had that first night, after which she would show me whatever painting she was working on. At her request, I also started reading to her from my book in progress. We gave each other feedback. Our work improved. When my six month lease was up, I renewed it.

小说还没写完，而且我想象不出还有比这更好的邻居。不知不觉中，三年过去了。我每周骑行七天，大多数晚上都和奥斯汀一起度过。现在她有时会头晕，我们一起散步时，她会挽着我的手臂。她常常找不到合适的词来表达。

The novel wasn't finished, plus I couldn't imagine a better neighbor. Before I knew it, three years had passed. I was riding seven days a week and spending most evenings with Austin. Sometimes she had spells of vertigo now, and when we walked together, she held my arm. Often, couldn't find the right word for something.

当她想要避开访客专心作画时，会在工作室门上挂个牌子：‘请勿打扰’。很快，头痛和语言混乱加剧了。‘我需要筛选我的电话，’她说，意思是她需要过滤来电。我们笑了，然后又严肃起来。

When she wanted to keep away visitors so she could paint, she hung a sign on her studio door. Do not destroy. Soon the headaches came and more jumbled language. I need to screw my calls, she said, meaning she needed to screen them. We laughed, then sobered.

安排了检查。现在她已患病八个月，医生说她的大脑深处有一种快速恶化的疾病。他们说无法阻止。如果幸运的话，还能活一年。即使我拒绝相信这一点，我也在为此做准备。

Tests were scheduled. Now she is eight months into what the doctors say is a quick ravaging illness deep in her brain. They say there is no stopping it. A year more if she's lucky. Even as I refuse to believe this, I prepare for it.

怎么做？通过履行对她的承诺。在她确诊前的几个月，奥斯汀参加了一场婚礼。她给我看了一份婚礼上分发的誓言副本，那是一份详细的清单。

How? By keeping my promise to her. A few months before her diagnosis, Austin had attended a wedding. She showed me a copy of the vows, which had been distributed at the ceremony. A detailed list.

在奥斯汀的要求下，我仔细阅读了它。我们坐在车里，等待我们最喜欢的泰国餐厅开门。‘我生命中的男人从未给过我这样的东西，’她指着誓言说，‘我们相爱，但我们没有这个。’她现在哭了，这是她很少有的表现。

I read it carefully at Austin's bidding. We were sitting in a car waiting for our favorite Thai restaurant to open. I never had anything like that with the men in my life, she said, pointing to the vows. We loved each other, but we didn't have that. She was crying now, something she rarely did.

我握住她的手说：‘好吧，你和我有这一切，除了性。’就在这时，猴子亲吻了鸽子。那天晚上，我有一个奇怪的领悟：我生命中最伟大的浪漫有些是友谊。而这些友谊在许多方面比情爱更神秘、更微妙、更无私、更充满善意。

I took her hand and said, well, you have it with me, everything but the sex. At which point, the monkey kissed the pigeon. That night, I had an odd realization. Some of the greatest romances of my life have been friendships. And these friendships have been in many ways more mysterious than erotic love, more subtle, less selfish, more attuned to kindness.

当然，奥斯汀会比我早逝很久。但这并非重点。我逐渐明白，这是一个爱情故事。奥斯汀又继续作画了几个月，用灼热的色彩绘制断裂的迷幻自画像，那是她最好的作品。不过最近，她疲惫不堪，几乎离不开沙发。

Of course, Austen was going to die long before I did. That's not what this is about. This, I have come to understand, is a love story. Austen continued to paint for several months more, fractured psychedelic self portraits in scorching colors, her best work. Lately, though, she is tired and hardly leaves a couch.

我在沙发另一端陪她坐着，双腿交缠。给我读点什么吧，她说。当我告诉她书已读完时，她让我念些新的。但每次我刚读，她就立刻睡着了。即便如此，我仍不离左右。

I sit with her at the opposite end, our legs intertwined. Read to me, she says. When I tell her the book is finished, she tells me to read her something new. But whenever I do, she promptly falls asleep. I don't leave, though.

我凝望窗外。奥斯汀说得对，这个房间确实采光最佳。近来她的头发稀疏了，但前额有一簇白发被朋友的女儿染了道紫红色。她看起来像是我高中时可能约会过的朋克女孩。

I stare out the window. Austin was right. This room does get the best light. Recently, her hair is thinned, but she has a shock of white up front that a friend's daughter has dyed with a streak of fuchsia. She looks like some punk girl I might have dated in high school.

上次探望时她稍有些精神，说道：'哦维克多，我今天吃了最棒的甜点，康涅狄格的桃子。你尝过吗？' '没有，'我笑着回答，'光是这个搭配就让我心动——两样看似不相干的东西。'

She had a bit more energy the last time I came to visit and said, oh, Victor, I had the most wonderful dessert today, peaches in Connecticut. Have you ever had it? No, I said smiling. I love the idea of it. Two things that don't seem to go together.

猴子与鸽子，康涅狄格的桃子。看似不搭，却美味得难以言喻。多么美妙的美文啊。

Monkeys and pigeons, peaches in Connecticut. Unlikely, yes, but delicious beyond measure. Such a beautiful, beautiful essay. Yeah.

说说你的感受。当时感觉如何...

Tell me your thoughts. How did that feel to to

朗读时？这个嘛，我...如我之前提过的，读到伟大的爱情时总像是在讲浪漫关系。而我最爱的是这两个人找到了彼此，成为命中注定。这段关系最动人之处在于他们自然而然地融入了共同生活。

read? Well, I, you know, I I I think that for me, as I had mentioned before, you know, when you read about great loves, it always seems to be about a romantic relationship. And I just I just love that these are two people that have found each other, and and they just and they're the one for each other. I I don't know. I think what's so great about this relationship is they just sort of slip into kind of a life together.

而且...我不知该怎么形容。我就是渴望这样的关系。虽然周围都是恋爱中的人...

And and and I and I don't know. I just I I I want that. Yeah. I'm surrounded by people in romantic relationships.

嗯。

Mhmm.

但这并非我所求，至少现在不是。所以当我看到有人能...首先这让我相信总能遇见对的人。他们或许不符合你预设的...嗯...理想模样或需求。这提醒我要保持开放心态。

And and it's not what I'm looking for, at least not right now. And so when I see somebody that finds first of all, it gives me hope that you can always find somebody. They they may not look what you think look like what you think you're gonna Mhmm. What you're gonna want or what you're gonna need. It reminds me to stay open.

你知道，他们谈到坐在沙发上双腿交缠的那部分，那种不期待浪漫却能与某人拥有的亲密感，真的直击我心。我不知道，我就是被触动了。我有个新邻居，她人很好。我能感觉到她真的很怀念住在我之前的那个房客。倒不是说她像奥斯汀那样，但我在想保持开放心态、不逃避的可能性，因为看看这美好的回报。

You know, the the part where they talk about sitting on the couch and their legs intertwined is, like, to have that kind of intimacy with somebody without the expectation of a romance is it's just it just hits me right in my heart. I don't know. I'm moved, I have this, you know, new neighbor, and she's she's great. And I can tell that she really misses the person that lived there before me. And and not that, you know, she's Austin or anything like that, but I just think about the possibility of keeping yourself open and and not running away from it because look at the great reward.

是啊，看看维克多和奥斯汀之间美好的回报。这就是关键。就像当所有朋友都恋爱时，你却连个紧急联络人都没有。

Yeah. Look at the great reward between Victor and Austin. And and it is the thing. It's too it's like when all your friends are in relationships Yeah. You sort of and you're like, nobody's emergency contact.

嗯，确实会感到有点孤独。但世界上还有其他类似的人可能也在寻找这种关系——说不定真有适合我的锅盖。虽然我讨厌这个说法。

Mhmm. You know, it it it can feel a little lonely. And but there are other people out there that might be the same and looking for this totally you know, there might be a lid for my pot. Yeah. I'm like, you know, I hate that expression.

不过或许我的锅盖会是个穿着舒适懒人鞋、在信箱前打量我的女士。

Yeah. But, you know, maybe maybe my my lid comes in the version of a a lady with some comfortable slip on shoes that's checking me out at my mailbox.

你作为新邻居，能对这位邻居女士保持开放友谊的态度——

You're a new neighbor. I was gonna say that the fact that you are keeping yourself open to this friendship with with your neighbor lady

不，我在努力。

No. I'm trying.

你在努力。但这打破了'不结交新朋友'的原则。你打破了这条规则，这很美、很了不起、很勇敢、很人性，包含了所有这些特质。

You're trying. But that's breaking the end the no new people rule. You're breaking the no new people rule, which is beautiful and amazing and brave and human and all of those things.

是啊，我就喜欢她那种'好吧，四点半'的爽快劲儿——

Yeah. And I I just love that, you know, that that she's like, okay, four thirty. You know, like, she's

她正在接纳他。

She's bringing him in.

她什么意思？要知道，你可没资格挑时间，'以后'是属于那些...

What's she saying? You know, you you don't have the luxury, you know, like, later is for people

谁有时间。

Who have time.

谁有时间。而且说实话，过去几年我经历的种种失去，我们并不总是有时间。所以，是的。你知道吗？那就喝杯金汤力吧。

Who have time. And and honestly, like, the amount of loss I've experienced over the last few years, it's, we don't always have time. So Yeah. You know what? So have the gin and tonic.

趁还能喝的时候喝杯金汤力。绝对正确。我们马上回来。你知道，你在谈论这位邻居，我也想问问，读这篇文章时，维克多和奥斯汀的友谊感觉非常像——或者说不是相似，但让我想起《某处某人》中你饰演的角色山姆与她最好的朋友乔尔之间的那种共鸣。我也好奇，现实生活中是否有人让你在读这篇文章时想到了某个朋友？

Have the gin and tonic while you can. Absolutely. We'll be right back. You know, you're you're speaking about this neighbor, and I I wanna ask too, like, reading this essay, obviously, the friendship between Victor and Austen feels very similar to the or not similar, but it reminds me of those resonances of the friendship between Sam, your character on Somebody Somewhere, and Joel, her best friend. And I wonder too, like, is there anyone in your real life where you read this essay and you're thinking about, you know, this friend?

具体来说没有。不过说到乔尔，确实有个人让我想起——我曾以为拥有这样的朋友，现在他依然是我最好的朋友之一。但我怀念从前，因为他现在有了伴侣，关系就变了。山姆对乔尔说过，这永远不会再一样了。但这不意味着我们的关系不再珍贵，只是感觉不同了。

Specifically, no. I mean, there's somebody when it comes to Joel that that reminds me, you know, I did have what I thought was this person, and then, you know, they they and they're still you know, we're still very you know, still one of my best friends. But, you know, but I miss that, you know, because then, you know, he's in a relationship now, and it just changes. And Sam says that to Joel, like, it's never gonna it's not gonna be the same. And it doesn't mean that you can't that, you know, we still have a very valuable relationship, but but I just think this was that.

然后它改变了。

And it changed.

然后它改变了。

And it changed.

你知道，你说‘然后’这个词真的很耐人寻味

You know, it's so interesting that you said And

这没关系。

that's okay.

是的。我正想说，你是怎么...当然，这没关系。虽然改变时很痛苦。但我想说，你的话很有意思，因为就你愿意分享的部分，我觉得很有共鸣，相信很多听众也是。你说这真的非常难。

Yeah. I was gonna say, how did you yeah. Of course, it it's okay. And It was awful when it did, but Well, I wanna It's so interesting what you're saying because as much as you're willing to share, I feel like that's something I can relate to. I think many listeners can relate to, and you said it's really freaking hard.

确实如此。

It is.

你是怎么熬过来的？比如，你当时是怎么告诉自己的？

How did you get through that? Like, what did you tell yourself?

我是说，这花了我很长时间。我当时真的很...你知道，反应过度且不成熟，但...他...起初他们有点像一起消失了，这...这也没什么。我能理解双方的想法。比如为什么你会想沉浸在恋爱关系中，而你觉得朋友永远会在那里。但我似乎总是扮演那个为他人守候的角色。

I mean, it took me a long time. I was really react you know, reactionary and and immature, and like but he he and, you know, and at first, they kinda disappeared together, and that and that's also okay. Like, I understand both sides of it. Like, why why you wanna get lost in a in a romantic relationship, and, you know, you think your friends are always gonna be there. But I've kinda always been that person for people.

我总有种感觉——她会在那里的。久而久之，这种想法开始影响你，就像...你不想觉得自己是备选，明白吗？虽然你忍不住这么想。但我也认为，不能仅仅因为某人有了恋爱关系，就意味着你不能成为...我在想...

I've always kind of been like, she'll be there. And and after a while, you start to kind of it it it affects you, and, like, it's like, you don't wanna feel like the second or third string, you know? Just like you can't help but feel that way. But I also don't think that that just because somebody's in a romantic relationship that that means that you can't be a folk you know, a I'm trying to think

合适的词是：他们生活中的焦点之一。只是不再是唯一焦点了。

of the right word. Focal point in their life. Just not the only one anymore.

对。所以你必须适应和调整，有时候需要朋友让你知道...他们有了美好的新恋情，这很棒。我...我当然为朋友感到高兴。Sam真心为Joel开心。

Yeah. And so you have to kind of acclimate and adjust, and and and sometimes you need your friend to let you know that that, you know, they have this new wonderful romantic relationship, and great. And and I am I I am happy for my friend. Of course. Sam is happy happy for Joel.

但有时候你需要知道自己很重要，懂吗？

But, like, you know, sometimes you need to know that you matter. You know?

就是接受你可能不会永远像对方对你那样，成为对方最重要的人。

It's accepting that you might not always be as primary to someone as they are to you.

是的。事实上我的很多友谊都是这样...如果我约他们做什么，他们会说'我先问问某某'。我理解你们共同生活。

Yeah. And that the the truth is a lot of my friendships are like, you know, if I ask them to do something, they're like, well, let me check with, you know, so and so first. And I understand that you have a life together.

当然。

Of course.

但如果身边人都这样，你就会开始觉得...好吧，我只是...对。只有在别人方便时才会被想起，这很伤人。所以看到这样的情景就像...嗯...就像梦想成真，给了我很大希望。

But it does make if you if everybody's around you is kinda like that, then you start to feel like, well, I'm just like Yeah. You know, I'm here when it's convenient for other people, and it and it hurts. Yeah. So seeing something like this is like Mhmm. It just is it's a dream, and it gives me a lot of hope.

我很喜欢你刚才说的，你知道，我问你作为那个感觉像是备胎或什么的朋友，你能做些什么。而你说的确实很好，让他们知道你很重要。这是一种提醒。

I love what you said that, you know, I asked you what can you do as the friend who feels like the the backup or or whatever. And what you said is it's really good for them to let you know you matter. It's to be reminded.

感觉总是要由那个像是无牵无挂的人来适应和调整，而你确实这么做了，也应该这么做，显然。是的。但我不确定。我可能有点自私，但我我

It feels like it's always up to the person that's like Unattached. That's unattached to kinda adapt and sort of and and and you you do and you should, obviously. Yeah. But I don't know. I'm probably being selfish, but I I

完全不觉得你自私。我是说，没有。让我再确认一下我的小眼镜。刷新一下。对。

do not think you're being selfish at all. I mean, there's no. Refresh my little glasses on that. Refresh it. Yeah.

戴上它。就像我说的。不。但我认为这是一个完美的提炼。我是说，简单但真实地表达了友谊可以是什么。

Put it on. Be like, I said it. No. But I think that's so it's kind of a perfect distillation. I mean, a simple one, but I think a true one of what friendship can be.

就是看着某人的眼睛说，你很重要。你对我很重要。你永远对我很重要。是的。对我来说，这就是友谊的意义。

It's just looking someone in eyes and saying, you matter. You matter to me. You will always matter to me. Yeah. That feels to me like that is what friendship is.

你只是

You just

而我我认为，你知道，这一季里Sam和Joel之间就发生了类似的事情，而且她需要这个。

And I and I think there you know, something like that happens in this season with Sam and Joel, and, like and and she needs it.

是的。你能描述一个你真正确信自己对朋友很重要的时刻吗？比如，有没有人做了什么或说了什么让你有这种感觉？

Yeah. Can you describe a moment where you really felt sure that you mattered to a friend? Like, was there something someone did or said where you felt that?

是的。我想我的朋友们知道，你知道，他们会告诉我他们爱我。我知道他们爱我。我我我知道我知道他们确实如此，但也要靠我去听进去。你知道吗？

Yeah. I I think my friends know that I, you know, they they tell me they love me. I know they do. I I I know that I know that they they do, but it's also up to me to hear it. You know?

但那是什么意思？嗯，我是说，我必须能够接受它。而且，你知道，有时候这很有挑战性。

And that's But what do you mean by that? Well, I mean, I have to be able to take it in. And it's, you know, it's it's challenging sometimes.

是啊。

Yeah.

我刚和玛丽·凯瑟琳在一起，她在剧里演我妹妹特里西娅，我们给她室友们上菜。然后她对我说了些话，她说‘你知道我爱你对吧？’我当时喝了几杯玛格丽塔，就回她‘别别现在试图剖析我’。

I was just with Mary Katherine, who plays Tricia, my sister on the show, and we serve her roommates. And, you know, and and she said something to me. She's like she's like, you know I love you. Right? And I was like I was like you know, I'd had a couple of margarinis, and I was like, don't don't try to unpack my me right now.

但她是很好的朋友，一直为我付出很多。我朋友扎克也花了很多时间让我真正听进去这些话。我觉得最关键的是你得让自己接受它。确实不容易。

But she's, you know, she's a great friend, and and she's always done a lot. My friend Zach has really invested a lot of time into making me hear it. So and I think that's kind of the most important part that you have to you have to let it in. Yeah. It's not easy.

我在想，人们总以为随着年龄增长，进入恋爱关系后，友情就会变得不那么重要对吧？就像在优先级里下降，比不上伴侣、孩子、工作这些。

You know what I'm thinking too with with, you know, people have expectations when we get older and we enter into romantic relationships that, like, friendship will become less important. Right? It's just like lower down on the hierarchy. It's less important than, you know, your your spouse or your kids or your job or whatever.

一大堆事情。

A whole host of things.

对吧？当成年的生活有这么多事情争夺时间，我们该如何培养亲密的友谊呢？

Right? How can we cultivate close friendships in our adulthood when there's so much else competing for our time or for our friend's time?

我不知道。真的不知道。我...我猜我的梦想是能再次成为朋友生活的核心。但我不确定...

I don't know. I don't know. I yeah. I I I guess that the you know, my dream is to to be to have a central you know, be central in a friend's life again. And and I I don't know.

我真心爱所有朋友，不想让他们听起来...不想他们听到这些后产生误解。但当朋友把我放在优先位置时，这真的很重要。

I just I love all my friends. I don't wanna, you know, I don't want You them to listen sound like it. I don't want them to listen to this and and think any anything, you know, less than that. But, when my friends are making me a priority, it matters. Yeah.

就像你说的，生活总会卷走一些人，有时友情就被搁置了。但山姆和乔尔不是这样，这正是我珍视的，感觉像童话。

Because it is like all those things you say. Like, there's just life sweeps people up, and and sometimes the fur the friendships you know, they become a backseat. And and it's not that way for Sam and Joel, and that's what I love. I feel like it's fantasy.

很明显这对你而言并非如此。虽然这么说可能有点俗，但很多人对友情都有同感。这些故事需要被看见——我们有那么多浪漫喜剧，讲的都是男女相遇、女女相遇、男男相遇的爱情故事。

It's so true that it's it it's so clear, rather, that it's it's not that way for you. And I think, I mean, not to get, you know, bit cheesy with it, but I think there are a lot of people who feel that way about friendships. But I do think that somebody somewhere helps those people feel very seen. As you say, those those stories are we have so many romantic comedies where it's, you know, girl meets guy or girl meets girl, guy meets guy, whatever. But it's romantic love.

是的。关于你节目的连接点在于，那个爱情故事其实是一段友谊。对。而且它

Yeah. And the connective thing about your show is that that love story is a is a friendship. Yeah. And it

学会接受这一点至关重要，但同时也要明白，你们如何在各自的生活中始终将对方置于核心位置。

And learning to and and that it is central, but but it's also just then how you can both go about your lives with with keeping each other at the at the forefront, At you know core.

在这篇文章接近尾声时，我最后一个问题要问你：维克多告诉奥斯汀，他们的关系除了性之外拥有一切，他意识到，“我生命中最伟大的浪漫都是友谊”。你如何看待用‘浪漫’这个词来形容友谊？这个表述合适吗？我们需要更好的词汇吗？

My final question to you near the end of this essay, Victor tells Austen that their relationship has everything but sex, and he realizes that, quote, the greatest romances of my life have been friendships. What do you think about the idea of using romance to describe a friendship, that word? Does it work? Do we need better words? No.

我非常喜欢这个说法。我经常这么说。比如山姆和乔尔，他们彼此坠入爱河，这就是一段浪漫。你可以被朋友深深吸引，即使没有性关系，你也在某种程度上爱着他们。

I love it. I love it. I say that all the time. I'm like, you know, with with Sam and Joel, like, they they fall in love with each other, and and I and it is a romance. It is like you can you can get swept off your feet by a friend, and you don't have just because, you know, there's there's may not be the sex involved, you are in love with them in some degree.

布里奇特·埃弗雷特，非常感谢你。

Bridget Everett, thank you so much.

这次对话非常愉快且充满肯定，我真的很感激。

This was such a lovely and affirming conversation. I really appreciate it.

谢谢。感谢你邀请我参与。

Thank you. I appreciate you, having me in.

黄金时段艾美奖将于9月14日在CBS播出。您可以在节目备注中找到维克多·洛多托的文章《当你最伟大的浪漫是友谊》的链接。《现代爱情》由瑞瓦·戈德堡、戴维斯·兰德、艾米丽·朗和艾米·珀尔制作，林恩·利维编辑，执行制片人是珍·波伊兰特，制作管理由克里斯蒂娜·约瑟夫负责。

The Primetime Emmy Awards will air on September 14 on CBS. And you can find a link to Victor LoDotto's essay, When Your Greatest Romance Is a Friendship, in our show notes. Modern Love is produced by Riva Goldberg, Davis Land, Emily Lang, and Amy Pearl. It's edited by Lynn Levy and our executive producer, Jen Poillant. Production management by Christina Joseph.

《现代爱情》主题音乐由丹·鲍威尔创作，本集原创音乐来自罗温·尼米斯托、丹·鲍威尔、阿蒙·萨霍塔和黛安·王。本集混音由丹尼尔·拉米雷斯和埃菲姆·夏皮罗完成，录音棚支持来自麦迪·马西耶洛和尼克·皮特曼。特别感谢玛希玛·乔布拉尼和杰弗里·米兰达，以及我们的视频团队布鲁克·明特斯、索耶·罗克和埃迪·科斯塔斯。《现代爱情》专栏由丹尼尔·琼斯编辑。

The Modern Love theme music is by Dan Powell. Original music in this episode by Rowan Nimisto, Dan Powell, Amon Sahota, and Diane Wong. This episode was mixed by Daniel Ramirez and Efem Shapiro with studio support from Maddie Masiello and Nick Pittman. Special thanks to Mahima Choblany and Jeffrey Miranda and to our video team, Brooke Minters, Sawyer Roque, and Eddie Costas. The Modern Love column is edited by Daniel Jones.

李米娅是《现代爱情》项目的编辑。如果您想向《纽约时报》提交一篇散文或微型爱情故事，节目备注中有投稿指南。我是安娜·马丁，感谢收听。

Mia Lee is the editor of Modern Love Projects. If you want to submit an essay or a tiny love story to The New York Times, we've got the instructions in our show notes. I'm Anna Martin. Thanks for listening.