《现代爱情》：我的男性友谊都去哪儿了？

大家好，我是Rachel。如你们所知，今年夏天的每个周日，我们都在为大家带来同事节目《现代爱情》的剧集。我们还会继续几周这样的安排。而本周，我们的主持人Anna Martin在这里，要告诉我们节目内容。

Hey, everyone. It's Rachel. As you know, every Sunday this summer, we've been bringing you episodes of our colleague show, Modern Love. We're doing that for just a couple more weeks. And for this week, our host, Anna Martin, is here to tell us what's on the show.

嗨，Anna。嘿，Rachel。那么告诉我，你们这周准备了什么

Hi, Anna. Hey, Rachel. So tell me, what do you have

给我们？是的。Rachel，我想知道当我说出这两个词时你会想到什么。好了，我们开始吧。

for us this week? Yeah. Rachel, I wonder what comes to mind when I say these two words. Alright. Here we go.

男性孤独。男人也会感到孤独？我知道，这很疯狂对吧？

Male loneliness. Men get lonely? I know. It's crazy. Right?

但说真的，我确实觉得社会范围内关于孤独的问题已经成为一个日益严重的担忧，至少在我的观察中是这样。

But no. But in all seriousness, certainly, I feel like the societal wide problem of being lonely has certainly grown as a concern, at least in my periphery.

完全同感。而且特别是对男性而言，确实有数据支持男性孤独感加剧的观点。我记得去年有项调查显示，15%的男性表示自己没有任何亲密朋友，一个都没有。哇哦。

Absolutely same. Yeah. And specifically for men, there is actually data that backs up this idea of increasing male loneliness. There's a survey I'm thinking of from last year that showed that fifteen percent of men reported having zero close friends, like, no close friends. Wow.

这个数字比1990年的调查高出五倍。所以现在的男性朋友更少了。

That's five times higher than surveys from 1990. So men have less friends these days.

这真的非常令人难过。

That is really genuinely quite sad.

确实令人难过。听到这些统计数据是一回事，但本周我采访了一位意识到自己正在成为统计数字中一员的人。我和作家Sam Graham Felsen聊过，他为《纽约时报杂志》撰写了关于自己孤独经历的文章。Sam有一个非常感人、温馨的故事，讲述了他与其他男孩、年轻男性之间深厚的友谊。

It is sad. And it's one thing to hear those statistics, but this week, I talked to someone who realized he was actually becoming a statistic. I talked to the writer Sam Graham Felsen. He wrote about his experience, his loneliness ultimately for the New York Times Magazine. Sam has this very moving, very sweet story about growing up with all of these close friendships with other boys, other young men.

但当他步入成年后，环顾四周却发现自己陷入了深深的孤独。然而Sam最鼓舞人心的地方在于，他决定采取行动改变现状。我非常期待你们听到这个故事，我自己也迫不及待想听

But then when he reached adulthood, sort of looking around and realizing he was deeply, deeply lonely. But the thing about Sam that I find so inspiring really is that he decided to do something about it. I'm really excited for you to hear this story. I'm excited to hear it

安娜，也是。非常感谢你。各位，这是本周的《现代爱情》节目。

too, Anna. Thank you so much. And everyone, here's this week's episode of modern love.

此刻与未来的爱。陷入

Love now and tomorrow. Fall in

爱得不如我深。爱比任何事物都强大。为了爱，爱。

love less than I love. Love is stronger than anything. For the love Love.

而我爱你胜过一切。

And I love you more than anything.

爱。克里斯蒂安，我爱。

Love. Christian, I love.

这里是《纽约时报》，我是安娜·马丁。这里是《现代爱情》。本周，我将与作家山姆·格雷厄姆·费尔森对话。他刚刚为《纽约时报杂志》撰写了一篇文章，题为《我那些深厚的男性友谊都去哪儿了？》

From The New York Times, I'm Anna Martin. This is Modern Love. This week, I'm talking to the writer Sam Graham Felsen. He just wrote a piece for The New York Times Magazine called, where have all my deep male friendships gone?

并不是某天醒来突然意识到‘天啊，我好孤独’。但某种程度上确实如此。我总以为‘哦，那是别人会有的问题，因为我朋友多得数不清，根本无法想象自己会感到孤独’。

It wasn't like one day I woke up and was like, oh my god. I'm lonely. But but it was kinda like that. But I always thought like, oh, well, that's something that applies to other guys because I have a million friends. I can't imagine ever feeling lonely.

直到三十多岁的某天，我突然发觉：等等，我好像真的有点孤独。我妻子是个很棒的人，是最好的倾听者——这也是当初我爱上她的原因。嗯。

And then, like, sometime in in my thirties, I'm like, wait a minute. I think I'm actually kind of feeling lonely. You know, my wife is a wonderful person, the best listener ever. That's why I fell in love with her in the first place. Mhmm.

但后来她直接对我说：‘兄弟，去找你朋友玩吧，打电话约他们出来。’我说‘你说得对，你说得对’。结果当然——我既没打电话也没约他们。

But, like, at a certain point, she's basically like, dude, just go hang out with your friends. Just call them and hang out with them. I'm like, you're right. You're right. Of course, then I didn't call them and hang out with them.

我做了所有事——除了和朋友们相聚。

And I did every single thing except for hang out with my friends.

山姆告诉我，他感觉很难再像以前那样轻松地和朋友们出去玩了。为了理解为何如此困难，他决定写下这些感受。需要说明的是，他的妻子是这家杂志的编辑。

Sam told me it felt difficult to just go hang out with his friends again. And to try to understand why it felt so hard, he decided to write about it. And full disclosure, his wife's an editor at the magazine.

我当时想，听着。如果我要写一整篇文章讲述——尽管拥有众多亲密友谊——我如何让自己陷入孤独，那么我觉得我有义务真正为此做些什么。

I was like, look. If I'm gonna write a whole thing about how, you know, I somehow let myself slip into loneliness despite having all a a wealth of, you know, close friendships. I feel like I owe it to myself to try to actually do something about it.

我想知道山姆是如何让朋友们重新回到他的生活中的，这对他的幸福感意味着什么，以及这如何改变了他对男子气概的理解。以下是我们对话的内容。山姆·格雷厄姆·费尔森，欢迎来到《现代爱情》。

I wanted to know what Sam did to get his friends back into his life, what it meant for a sense of well-being, and how it changed what he thought it meant to be a man. Here's our conversation. Sam Graham Felsen, welcome to Modern Love.

非常感谢邀请我。

Thanks so much for having me.

我们今天要讨论的是你为《纽约时报杂志》撰写的这篇文章，标题是《我那些深厚的男性友谊都去哪儿了？》。我们会深入你的故事，但我想先问，你之前感到过孤独吗？这种感受是新的还是……

So we're here to talk about this piece you wrote for the New York Times Magazine. It's called where have all my deep male friendships gone? And we'll get into your story, but I wanna start by asking, had you felt lonely before? Had you felt this kind of or was this a new

这完全是新的体验。我的意思是，在我感到孤独之前，我一直认为自己是个外向的人。我年轻时的一个问题就是过度承诺，安排太多计划，然后不得不取消，让朋友们生气。我记得小时候找到四年级的成绩单，老师写道——现在想想很有趣——她说：‘山姆太过社交蝴蝶了。’

It was totally new. I mean, you know, my my whole life until, you know, I became lonely, I saw myself as an extrovert. And and and one of my problems, like, when I was younger was, like, over obligating myself and making too many plans and then having to cancel on friends and having them get mad at me. And, you know, from a young age, I remember I found my report card from fourth grade, and my teacher it's really funny that teachers wrote stuff like this back then. She was like, you know, Sam, he you know, he he's way too much of a social butterfly.

‘我恐怕得剪掉他的翅膀了。’天哪。是的。首先，什么？

I fear I may have to clip his wings. Oh my god. Yeah. Yeah. First of what?

我知道。她真的这么写了。但那时的我就是那样。

I know. She literally wrote that. And but that's who I was.

当你还是四年级那个社交蝴蝶时，友谊对你意味着什么？

What did friendship mean to you when you were that social butterfly in fourth grade?

四年级时，我记得有一段友谊如此强烈，几乎像是坠入爱河。班上有个叫安德鲁的男孩，他是我见过的第一个会用发胶梳头发的孩子。天哪。

Fourth grade was when I really remember having a friendship that was so intense, it almost felt like falling in love. There was a there was a boy named Andrew in my class who he was the first kid who I had ever seen comb his hair and put, like, gel in his hair. Oh my god.

挺酷的。

That's cool.

在那之前，大家起床时都顶着乱糟糟的头发就去上学——至少男生是这样，像亚历山大那个糟糕透顶的日子一样。而我也是那样。后来有个男孩开始用发胶，还穿着那种叫‘热感变色’的T恤，吹口气就会变色。

Like, before that, it was just like everyone woke up with bed head and went at least the boys did, went to school with, like, crazy bed head, you know, like Alexander's horrible no good day. And and that was that was me. And and and then, like, you know, there was this kid who, you know, put gel in his hair, and he and he had these T shirts called hypercolor where if you blew on them, they changed color.

等等，稍等。

Okay. Hang on.

这是九十年代初的事。他戴着斯沃琪手表，我记得...

This was a thing in the early nineties. And he had a Swatch watch, and I remember like

他肯定很潮。

He's gonna swag out.

他当时是？

Is he was?

我说的‘男人’其实是个小男孩。

And by man, I mean boy.

没错，九岁。但我清晰记得自己当时完全不懂时尚或酷炫是什么。看到那个男孩时我就想：我要成为他这样的人。后来我几乎每天放学都泡在他家。

He was. Yes. Nine nine year old But I remember vividly, like, I had no concept of what was fashion, what was cool, or anything like that. And I remember seeing this kid, and I was like, this guy I wanna I wanna be like this guy. And it ended up being this thing where I felt like I was at his house every single day after school.

对吧？我们整天混在一起。说来好笑，多年没想起这事了——我们搞了个‘宝贝奥运会’，都迷恋《 married with children 》里的克里斯蒂娜·艾伯盖特和《火箭手》里的詹妮弗·康纳利。

Right. Right? We we were just, like, hanging out constantly. We it's funny. I hadn't thought about this in years, but we had this thing that we called the Babe Olympics, where where where, like, both of us had a crush on Christina Applegate from from Married With Children or whatever, and and Jennifer Connelly from The Rocketeer.

我们会设计各种古怪比赛，赢家就能和詹妮弗·康纳利约会——当然是虚构的。有篮球单挑这类运动项目，也有一分钟内喝水最多的荒唐挑战...我完全沉浸在他的世界里，也带他进入我的世界，记忆中全是笑声...

And we would we would create these wacky competitions where the winner, you know, got to go on some fictional date with Jennifer Connelly or no. So, like, some of it would be sports, like playing one on one basketball, but, like, some of it would be, like, who can drink, you know, the most water in one minute or, you know, like, these absurd And I just remember being absorbed in his world, introducing him to my world, and I just remember laughing all the time and and

我是说，但你的意思是除了各自的世界，他带你进入他的兴趣圈，对吧，他的世界，你带他进入你的兴趣圈，你们还在创造，如你所说，属于你们关系的世界。对吗？我想回到之前的话题。你说这是段友谊，第一次和这个叫安德鲁的男生，感觉就像坠入爱河。你那时很年轻，但你还记得吗，能多告诉我些关于那种连结的事吗？

I mean, but what you're saying is in addition to the worlds, you know, of him introducing you to his interest, right, his world, you introducing him to your interest, you are creating, as you're saying, the world of your relationship. Right? And I wanna go back. You said this was a friendship, the first one with this guy, Andrew, right, where it felt akin to falling in love. And you're so young, but do you remember, like do can you tell me more about that connection?

是那种想时时刻刻和他在一起的感觉吗？我信任这个人？那种感觉背后是什么？

Was it like, wanna be with this guy all the time? I trust this guy? Like, what was behind that?

是的。我之所以把它比作坠入爱河，是因为我知道那种感觉。我很快爱上了我妻子，我记得那种感觉，十之八九的思绪都关于这个人。百分百。懂吗？

Yeah. So the reason why I compare it to falling in love is because, like, I know what it's like to fall in love. I I fell in love with my wife very quickly, and I remember just that feeling of, like, nine out of 10 of my thoughts are about this person. 100%. You know?

嗯。我只想和这个人待在一起，等不及放学后和他共度时光。完全懂。去干我们的事，比如打恶作剧电话。

Mhmm. And and all I wanna do is hang out with this person, and I can't wait until the school day is over so that I have time with this guy Totally. You know, to go do our thing and make, you know, prank calls to

宝贝奥运会。

Babe Olympics.

然后回到宝贝奥运会，进行第900轮。坦白说，还有嫉妒的感觉。如果他和别人出去玩，我会想，他是不是更喜欢那些人？嗯。

And go back to the Babe Olympics for round 900 of the Babe Olympics. And it was also the feeling of jealousy, frankly. If he was Yeah. Hanging out with other people, I started to be like, well, does he like those people more than me? Mhmm.

实际上，我们友谊的终结是因为他交了女朋友。那真是毁灭性的打击。这像是后来生活中人们结婚后疏远朋友的预演。但他有了女友后完全冷落了我。记得有一天——

And actually, like, what ended our friendship was that he got a girlfriend. And that was, like, totally devastating. And and it's it's an interesting kind of, like, echo of what happens later in life when people get married and and and end up sidelining their friends. But he completely sidelined me after he got a girlfriend. I remember one day, like

那是什么时候？初中吗？还是——

And that was when? In middle school? Or

那是七年级。好吧。记得有一天，他不接我电话之类的。我就直接去他家门口，问，嘿，怎么回事？

That was that was in seventh grade. Okay. And I remember one day, you know, he he wasn't, you know, answering my calls or whatever. So I just showed up at at his door, and I was like, hey. What's going on?

为什么不一起玩了？我们出去玩吧。结果他女友在那儿，我完全不知情。哇。简直像电影情节，他当着我的面关上门，说，走开。

Why aren't we you know, let's hang out. And his girlfriend was there unbeknownst to me. Woah. And he literally it was like out of a movie. He did the thing where he shut the door in my face, and he's like, go away.

哇。等等。停下。那是什么感觉？

Wow. Wait. Stop. What did that feel like?

糟透了。感觉就像被甩了一样。是的。我确实记得走回家的情景。他住的地方离我家大概步行七分钟，而我住在山坡上。

Horrible. It was it was akin to being dumped. Yeah. I do remember walking home. He lived probably like a seven minute walk from my house, and I I lived on a hill.

我记得当时沿着那个该死的山坡走回家，小时候走这段路时腿总是特别累，感觉每一步都很沉重。之所以这么艰难，是因为，没错，我和这些朋友的亲密程度几乎像是一段专一的恋爱关系。

And I remember just walking home up that damn hill, and my legs would always be so tired when I was a kid walking up this hill, and just feeling like each step was heavy. And the reason why it was so hard is because, yeah, again, the degree of closeness I felt with these friends was almost like it almost felt like being in a monogamous relationship.

你描述的这种感受我觉得很有共鸣。我很好奇，你们学校或其他地方的人是否注意到了这种强烈的联系？他们怎么看？你觉得这种关系在别人眼中是怎样的？

You're articulating a feeling that I think is that I resonate with. And, yeah, I'm curious if, like, other people in your school or whatever saw that intense connection. What do they think of it? How was it perceived, do you think?

我觉得那时候我们还小，恐同的情绪还没真正开始蔓延。但到了七年级、八年级以后，就经常听到人们用恐同的言辞来侮辱人。有些是开玩笑，有些比玩笑更恶劣。因为人们看到我和一些男性朋友走得太近。

I think at that point, we were young enough that the homophobia stuff hadn't started to really creep up yet. But certainly by the time I was in seventh grade, eighth grade, and beyond, it was totally it was constant hearing people make homophobic kind of like insults. And and some of it was teasing, some of it was like worse than teasing. Right. Because people saw how close I was to some of my male friends.

人们过去叫我“同性恋山姆”。这个家伙怎么这么痴迷他的男性朋友？干脆叫他同性恋好了。你懂的？就是这类事情。

People used to call me Sam Gay. And who is this guy who's so obsessed with his male friends? Let's call him gay. You know? So, like, all of that stuff.

但我记得有一次，学校里流行过一种叫“ slam book ”的东西，基本上算是社交媒体的前身，就是那种黑白大理石花纹封面的旧笔记本。有人会做一本，然后在每一页上写一个名字。天啊。这东西会在学校里传阅，大家匿名写下对那个人的看法。

But but I remember, like, at one point, there used to be this thing called a slam book where it was basically like a proto social media where it was those old composition notebooks with the marble black and white cover. Someone would would create one of these things, and they would write a name on each page of the notebook. Oh my god. And it would it would just float around school, and people would write anonymously whatever they thought about that person.

哇。这是个实体的“诽谤书”。这让我想起《贱女孩》里的情节。

Wow. It is a physical it's a burn book. I mean, this is a reference to Mean Girls, I think.

没错。我记得在那本诽谤书里，有人写道：“山姆和罗布像人猿泰山一样挂在对方的蛋蛋上。”罗布是我最亲密的朋友之一。

But yeah. And I remember, like, seeing in that burn book, in the slam book, somebody wrote, Sam and Rob are swinging on each other's nuts like Tarzan. Rob was one of my closest friends.

告诉我你和罗布是怎么认识的。他在你写的文章里占了很大篇幅。

Tell me how you and Rob met. He plays a really big part in the piece you wrote.

我记得那时我上六年级，大概10或11岁。有个孩子邀请我去参加他的通宵生日派对。我特别讨厌去这种通宵派对。现在说出来真是掏心掏肺了。

I think I was in sixth grade. I was 10 or 11. There was a kid who had invited me to a sleepover birthday party. I hated going to sleepover birthday parties. I'm really laying it all out on the line here.

这特别可爱，我完全能理解。

It's totally endearing. I'm like, I get it.

但我讨厌这些派对是因为所有男孩都喜欢看恐怖片，而我特别害怕恐怖片。就在一个月前，我刚参加过另一个通宵派对，他们放了部叫《鬼娃回魂2》的电影——现在想想蠢透了。我当时还想这电影有什么可怕的？其实就是个被恶魔附身的玩偶用屠刀捅人的故事。

But I hated going to these parties because all the boys like to watch horror movies, and I hated horror movies. And literally, like, a month before, I had just been to another sleepover party where they had shown this movie called Child's Play two, which is so stupid. And I'm like, how could I have thought this movie was scary? But it's basically like this doll who is possessed by a demon and then ends up stabbing everybody with a butcher knife.

说实话，听起来还行。

To be honest, that sounds Okay.

总之他们当时就在看这个电影。屋里没有其他房间可以躲，我就...我找到他家的电话打给我妈，假装说我不舒服。

But anyway, that's the movie they were watching. And there wasn't another room that it could go into. Aw. So I just I just I found a I found his phone, and I called my mom. And I was like, I'm sick.

我说'能来接我吗'。虽然他们肯定看出我没生病，这实在太尴尬了。我记得在车上还哭了，既觉得丢脸又庆幸能回家。所以这次派对我是真不想去。

Can you come pick me up? And, you know, I like you know, I I'm sure they could tell I wasn't sick, and it was totally embarrassing. And I end I, you know, I remember crying in the car because I was so embarrassed, but I was also like, thank God, I can go home. You know? So anyway, so I really didn't wanna go to this sleepover party.

那天晚上大概11点，我们吃了好多披萨，自制了冰淇淋圣代。后来大家都去客厅准备看电影，还没选片我就开始恐慌。这时派对上叫罗伯的孩子突然说：

And, you know, it was like probably 11PM. Like, we we we'd eaten tons of pizza, made your own make make your own ice cream sundaes, And and then everyone goes into the den in his house to to start watching a movie. And before they even picked the movie, I'm just like, I I gotta get out of here. Like, I started panicking. And and this other kid at the party, his name was Rob, was like, you know what?

'我不想看电影，想去隔壁玩任天堂'。我立刻抓住机会跟过去，他在玩《最终幻想》——那个改变我人生的瞬间至今记忆犹新。

I don't feel like watching movies. I just feel like playing Nintendo in the other room. And I was like, oh, that's my opportunity. So I just followed him in there, and he was playing a game called Final Fantasy. And I still remember it because it was it was like the seminal moment in my life.

他问'哥们要玩吗？我玩很久了'，我连说'不用不用，你玩你的'。顺便说，我父母是嬉皮士，家里根本没游戏机，我连手柄都不会握，光看他玩就开心得不得了。

And and he's like, dude, do you wanna play? Like, I've been playing for a while. I'm like, no. No. No.

虽然不记得聊了什么，但那晚我们彻夜未眠。

Do your thing. Like, you know? And by the way, my parents were hippies, and, like, we didn't have video games. So I didn't even know how to I was just happy to watch him. And I don't even remember what we talked about, but but we stayed up all night.

我记得与他产生了深刻的共鸣，更觉得是他拯救了我。我不确定他是否意识到这点，但我真切感受到他的救赎。对他涌起难以言表的感激之情。很快我就意识到，这个人与我以往交往过的任何人都不同——他对哲学有着异常的热忱。

And I remember really connecting to him, but also just feeling like he saved me. And I don't know if he was conscious that he'd done it, but I felt that he had saved me. And I felt this overwhelming gratitude towards him. And I quickly realized this guy is unlike anyone I've ever hung out with before. He was really into philosophy.

他对哲学痴迷不已

He was really into It

这么年轻就沉迷哲学。

was young to be into philosophy.

确实年轻就热衷哲学。我们还志趣相投，都疯狂迷恋波士顿凯尔特人队之类的事物。但他在智识和道德层面的严肃性，在那个年龄的朋友中绝无仅有。我记得当时惊叹不已——

It was young to be into philosophy. He also had similar interests. We both were obsessed with the Boston Celtics and things like that. But he was intellectually and morally serious in a way that, like, none of my other friends were at that age. And I just remember, like, thinking, wow.

这家伙活在不同的境界里，而我想踏入那个境界。那时的我极度在意是否够酷，懂吗？拼命想要合群。而他恰恰相反——

This guy is operating on another level, and I wanna be a part of that level. I I was really concerned with being cool. Right? Like, I I was very concerned with, you know, trying to fit in. And he was the opposite.

他穿着卡其裤，真的，除了他没人这么穿。看起来活像个老头子。但我被深深震撼了：这家伙根本不在乎酷不酷。而我如此在意，却渴望成为他那样超脱的人。

Like, he he he was wearing khakis. Literally, nobody wore khakis except for him. And he looked like an old man. And I was just so impressed of, like, this guy doesn't care about being cool. I care deeply, but I wish I was the kind of person who didn't care about being cool.

这正是我想进入的世界——他那个纯粹做自己的世界。当时的我尚未形成独立人格，是他帮助我成为了真正的个体。

And that was part of the world that I wanted to enter into. Was like his his his world of just being a an individual. You know? And I wasn't quite an individual yet, and and he helped me to become an individual.

你在做件很难的事——描述爱一个人的理由。

You know, you're doing something I think is very difficult, which is describing why you love someone.

是啊。

Yeah.

你们朝夕相处，从他身上汲取养分。这段经历让你对友谊有了什么新认知？

I mean, I wonder you're having all of these you're spending so much time with him. You're learning from him. What do you feel like you were learning about friendship at this at this point?

我觉得Rob让我意识到，友谊在情感上可以和恋爱关系一样严肃，也可以像亲情一样深刻，这很重要。但通过这些深厚的友谊，我最大的领悟是——那段时光简直是我人生中最快乐的时光。要知道，我那时真的不喜欢上学。

I think I think Rob helped me see that, like, friendship a can be as serious emotionally as a romantic relationship. It can be as serious emotionally as a family kinship, it's a big deal. But I I think the other thing I just learned from these intense friendships is, like, I I I was having the time of my damn life. You know? Like, I was really did not like school.

我满脑子只想着放学后或暑假时，能整天和朋友们打篮球，深夜畅聊。他们让我快乐，让我感觉很好。这就是我最深刻的体会。

And all I could think about was either after school or the summer when I could spend all day, you know, playing basketball with my friends and and and chatting with them late into the night. They made me happy. They feel good. Yeah. That's the thing I learned most from it.

就是...和他人相处真的很快乐。现在居然要特意说明这点很可笑，因为这原本是本能——伙计们待在一起就是很舒服。

It's just like, it feels good to be with other people. And it's funny that I have to spell that out now because it's like something I have to tell myself. Before, it was just intuitive. Dude, it feels good to hang out with other dudes.

听你说'人生最快乐的时光'时我真的很触动。这让我回想起那种状态——充满纯粹的快乐与满足，朋友就是你的全世界。而且你知道，你也是他们的全世界。我好奇，你会和Rob或其他朋友深入交流感受吗？

I honestly feel, like, emotional when I hear you say I'm having the time of my damn life. It's putting me back to places. It's like, it's so joyful and fulfilling, and your friends are the center of your world. And not only that, you know that you're the center of theirs. I wonder, were you talking about feelings with with Rob or with other friends?

你们会进行那种深层次的对话吗？

Like, were you going deeper on that level?

好问题。和大多数男性一样，我历来觉得很难谈论感受，尤其是和其他男性。所以答案是肯定的，但通常始于更抽象的话题，比如道德困境。记忆里总是深夜，只有我和某个朋友。

It's a good question. I I definitely, like most men who I've met and talked to, historically have found it difficult to talk about feelings, particularly with other men. So I would say, like, the answer is yes. But I would say, like, it would start with talking about something in a more abstract way, like a moral dilemma. What I remember is it was always late in the night, just me me and this other friend.

以Rob为例：我们先看搞笑电影，半夜躺下后开始嬉闹。我睡在地板床垫上，互相开玩笑。

I'll use Rob as an example. We'd be hanging out, watch a funny movie. Right? Eventually, we get into bed around midnight or whatever. I'm lying on the cot on the floor, and we're joking around.

这个过程的第一个阶段是嬉闹，第二阶段可能会聊到想亲吻的女孩之类的话题。

And I guess the first stage of the arc is the joking around. The second stage, maybe, you know, talking about the girls we wanna kiss or whatever.

关键点是环境很暗，你们不用对视。我觉得这很重要，因为...

I think it's important to say it's dark. It's like you're not looking at each other. I actually do think that's important. Right? Because it's like

就像心理治疗时躺在沙发上看天花板。对吧？你们躺在床上也不对视。

It's almost like being in therapy where you're, like, lying on a couch looking up at the ceiling. Right? You're not looking at each other. You're both lying in bed. Yeah.

就在一个人快要睡着的时候，另一个突然说，对了，还有一件事我想聊聊。然后话题又延续了一个小时。对吧？我记得我们总是先聊很多其他事情，等气氛足够放松了，才会开始讨论那些更沉重、更情绪化的话题。比如我的不安全感，那些让我自我厌恶的事情，比如希望自己... 我也不知道。

And just as one is starting to doze off, the other one's like, by the way, there's one other thing I wanna talk about. And then it goes on for another hour. Right? So I remember it would be like after talking about a lot of other stuff, then feeling loose enough, that's when we would talk about the heavier, more emotional things. But like, you know, insecurities and the things that I felt bad about myself, like, wishing that I don't know.

听起来可能很琐碎，但比如希望自己更擅长运动之类的。嗯。

Like, it sounds trivial, but, like, wishing that I were better at sports. Like Mhmm.

你会对朋友说'我爱你'吗？

Would you ever say I love you to your friends?

不会。绝对不会。即使是现在，我也希望能说出口，但...我偶尔会说一次，但这对我来说很困难。而我妻子就经常对朋友说爱她们。

No. No. No. And I mean, even now, I would like to be able to say that, but and I say that once in a blue moon, but it's something that I struggle to do. And my wife says she loves her friends all the time.

这对她来说很容易。但没错...我们不会...我们不会说那种话。

It's not hard for her. But yeah. No. No. We wouldn't we wouldn't say that.

如果不用语言表达，你们之间有其他表达爱意的方式吗？

Did you have, like, a way that you expressed your love for one another, if not in words?

你知道的，没有拥抱。绝对不会有牵手、拥抱这类举动。因为当时我们始终保持着一种意识，就是...

You know, there wasn't, like, hugging. There wasn't, like certainly wasn't like holding hands, hugging, any any of that kind of stuff. It was because there was still this consciousness of like, you know The

你之前提到过的'八卦手册'。

burn book that you mentioned.

对。在那个年纪，你绝对不想让别人觉得你们不只是朋友关系。所以即便私下独处时，你们也会刻意坐得比实际需要的距离远一些。嗯。是的，当时的情况就是这样。

Yeah. You don't want you don't want anyone to perceive you as being something other than friends at that age, So you even even in private, you're gonna sit a little bit further away on the couch than you need to. Mhmm. So, yeah, that's that's that's just just how it was.

但看起来你们心里都明白。你们知道彼此之间存在着深厚的友谊，实际上是一种爱。

But it seems like you knew. You knew that there was a deep friendship and in fact a a love there between you all.

是的。我之所以再次将其视为爱，是因为这些挚友占据了我大量的心理空间。真的花了很多时间去想，比如皮蒂会喜欢这首歌吗？嗯。

Yeah. And the reason the reason why, again, I think of it as love is just the the amount of mental space these close friends occupied. Yeah. It was it was really spending a lot of time thinking, Petey like this you know, song? Mhmm.

本尼会喜欢我刚发现的这家披萨店吗？就是不断以人际关系为出发点思考：我能与朋友分享什么？下次什么时候能见到这个朋友？是的。

Would Benny like this pizza place that I just discovered? You know, like, just constantly thinking, like, in terms of my relationships, What can I share with a friend? You know? When can I next see this friend? Yeah.

你曾以为会和这些人做一辈子的朋友吗？

Did you think you'd be friends with these guys forever?

是啊。没错。

Yeah. Yeah.

广告回来后，萨姆的友谊经历了什么？请继续收听。萨姆，我特别想深入了解大学毕业后发生了什么，因为我想情况不可能是你刚毕业，所有友谊就突然消失了。但随着年龄增长进入成年期，某些变化确实发生了。你二十五六岁离开校园后，友谊状态是怎样的？

When we come back, what happened to Sam's friendships? Stay with us. So, Sam, I really wanna dig into what happened after college because I imagine it wasn't like you graduated college and then all of a sudden, you know, your friendships disappeared. But something did change clearly as you got older, more into adulthood. What were your friendships like in sort of your mid twenties after you left, after you graduated college?

刚毕业时棒极了，我单身住在纽约，和不同朋友合租过好几处公寓。那简直就是大学生活的延续——每天熬夜到凌晨，啤酒大麻不离手（可能两者都有），吃着糟蹋身体的外卖。二十出头那段时间，我记得大概25、26岁左右开始出现转折。

Immediately after college, they were amazing because I was single living in New York. So I had various apartments that I shared with different friends. And and that was like, you know, basically an extension of college because it was, you know, staying up super late every night, often, you know, with beers or weed or whatever, probably both, and tons of takeout that was terrible for us. And, you know, just I I remember, like, again, having the time in my life in my early twenties after college. Like and it was, like, somewhere around, like, '25, '26 that things began to shift.

那时很多朋友和我都开始觉得：我们得振作起来了。懂吗？就像...

That was, like, when a lot of my friends and me started to be like, well, we need to get our shit together. Right? There was like it was like this I

完全明白，就是那个「人生整顿期」。

know exactly what yeah. It's the get your shit together years.

没错。有人去读法学院，有人上医学院，大家都在重整人生。越来越多人离开纽约。

Exactly. So that started happening. I had friends who were going to law school, friends who were going to med school. So this thing started happening where everyone's getting their shit together. People are leaving New York.

是的。接着更重要的变化是——应该说最关键的是——大家的恋爱关系越来越认真。我大学时有个女朋友，

Yeah. So that starts to happen. And then the bigger thing, of course, the biggest thing I would say, is people started their their relationships started to get more and more serious. So I had a girlfriend in college,

而且

and

我们决定同居了。所以现在我要从和朋友住一起变成和恋人住一起。和朋友住的时候，大部分情况下，你其实不需要事事报备，想干嘛就干嘛，对吧？

we decided to move in together. So so now I'm going from, like, living with friends to living with my romantic partner. And with friends, for the most part, like, you know, you don't really have to, like, check-in with them about anything. You could do whatever the hell you want. Right?

还有，和朋友住的时候，碗堆成山没人洗，两个人都邋里邋遢也无所谓。但恋爱同居就不一样了，现在你得认真对待家务，因为你们是在真正共享生活空间。

Also, like, with friends, it's like none of the dishes are getting done, and we're both slobs, and, like, we don't care. But, like Totally. When you're in a romantic thing, it's like, alright. Now you gotta take the chores more seriously. You have to, like you're really sharing a space Yeah.

这是和某人共同筑巢的过程。你会开始事事和伴侣商量，逐渐地，你外出减少了——毕竟最想见的人就在身边。以前出门玩总想着'说不定今晚能在酒吧遇到真命天子'这种念头...

And, like, building a home with somebody. And, you know, so you're you're running your plans by by your partner. So so little by little, you move in with your partner. You are going out less because you already are with your partner. And, like, a big part of going out is like, oh, well, maybe I'll meet the person tonight, you know, at the bar or whatever.

现在完全

And you don't have

没有这种动力了。是啊。

that anymore. Of a drive. Yeah.

当生命挚爱触手可及时，就会冒出'还需要朋友干什么'的想法——所有需求在这里都能满足：有聊得来的灵魂伴侣，

And, you know, when when you're with, like, you know, the the love of your life and you can see them whenever you want, this idea starts to creep in. Well, like, what do I even need my friends for? Like, I got everything right here. Right? I have, like, somebody who I love to talk to.

还能一起做各种事情。所有需求一站式解决。

I also get to do other stuff with them. Exactly. Right. And and it's all in the same package. And, you know

我能打断一下吗？就在同居这个阶段，当你和当时的女友（后来的妻子）住在一起时，友谊逐渐——我不想说'变得不重要'——但确实优先级降低了，你当时意识到这点了吗？

Can I can I pause it on just before that? It's like when this was happening, this moving in with with your partner who becomes or your girlfriend rather who becomes your wife, And this sort of slowly I don't wanna say like, the friendships becoming less and less central to your life, maybe less and less of a priority. Were you aware of that?

当然意识到了，因为朋友都在抱怨：'瞧山姆那家伙，有了女朋友就忘了兄弟'。说实话，当时我并没有特别想念朋友们。

I was definitely aware of it because some of my friends were giving me grief about it. Oh, look at Sam. Like, you know, now that he's got you know, he lives with his girlfriend, like, doesn't have time for us anymore. You know, that kind of thing. I was I mean, the honest truth is that at the time, I didn't consciously miss my friends that much.

我当时对能和恋人在一起感到非常兴奋，一心想着要好好表现，把自己的生活打理好，诸如此类的事情。

I was so excited about being with my romantic partner and so focused on trying to crush it and getting my shit together, all that stuff.

是啊。

Yeah.

其实我并没有。要说有什么感受的话，我当时对朋友们用内疚感来绑架我很恼火。我就想，哥们儿，别这样了行吗。我还想，你自己找个女朋友去，别来烦我。对吧？

I wasn't really. If anything, I was annoyed at my friends for guilt tripping me. I'm like, just get over it, dude. And I e, get your own girlfriend and leave me alone. Right?

我并没有真的这么说，但心里想的差不多就是这些。没错。变得成熟就意味着要找个恋人，然后不再和朋友们瞎混。好像不停止和朋友们来往就不算真正的男人似的。或者说，这种想法很奇怪

I didn't literally say that, but I was thinking something along those lines. Yeah. Becoming mature involved getting a romantic partner and, like, not goofing around with your friends. Like, you're not really a man unless you, like, stop hanging out with your friends. Or, like, bizarre

或者说把全部精力都集中在你爱的这个人身上。我是说，这让我想到我们在节目里讨论过的话题——你早年从不同人那里获得不同的需求：从朋友那里获得乐趣，从某个哥们那里得到情感支持，和另一个哥们打篮球。然后你的关注点逐渐收窄，遇到这个你深爱的恋人后，情感、身体需求和娱乐活动都集中到了这一个人身上。你觉得这种描述准确吗？

in, yeah, or hone in on this person who you love. I mean, it's making me think about how, you know, we we sort of talk about this on the show, but it's like you were getting all these different things from different people earlier on in your life. You're getting fun from your friends and emotional support from, you know, this guy and basketball with this other guy. And then it's like it's just sort of your focus narrows, and you meet this romantic partner who you love, you love deeply, and sort of the emotional and the physical and the fun gets narrowed to sort of one person. Does that feel accurate?

听起来你把太多东西都寄托在这段恋爱关系上，以至于友谊反而像是一种干扰。这差不多就是我听到的意思。

It's like you're putting so much on this romantic relationship that friendship kinda seemed like a distraction. It's almost what I'm hearing you say.

没错。朋友几乎像是一种奢侈品。就像，好吧，如果我连续两周不出门玩乐、健康饮食、不深夜买醉、做个称职的伴侣，那么我就可以放纵一下。这几乎就像吃垃圾食品一样。

Yes. They almost felt like a luxury. Like, it's like, okay. If I spend two straight weeks not going out, eating healthy, not boozing late into the night, and being a nice partner, then, like, I'll indulge. It's almost like having junk food or something.

对吧？

Right?

是啊。罗伯这段时间在干什么？当你和恋人同居时，他那边是什么情况？你们还有联系吗？

Yeah. Where was Rob during all this? Like, when you were moving in with your romantic partner, what was happening with him? Were you guys in touch?

罗伯大学毕业后也搬到了纽约。后来某个时间点他又搬回了波士顿。我们仍然通过电话联系，还会互相写很长的邮件。我们会给对方写三五千字的邮件。哇。

So so Rob also moved to New York City and after college. At a certain point, he moved back to Boston. And we were still communicating on the phone and writing each other these long emails. We would write each other three or four or 5,000 word emails. Wow.

哇。是啊。而且他们中有些人在情感上出奇地成熟。你当时在说什么呢？你知道，你做的这件事真的伤害了我。感觉你并没有充分意识到你对我的伤害。

Woah. Yeah. And some of them were really emotionally mature What were you talking in a surprising way. You know, I was really hurt by this thing that you did. You know, I don't feel like you you fully accounted for the way that you hurt me.

这是我的经历。哇。然后回信写道，我听到了。但是，你知道，像这样的东西，比我现在和男性朋友的互动方式成熟得多。但我们直到二十五六岁还在那样做。

Here's what my experience was. Wow. And then writing back, I hear that. But, you know, stuff like like stuff that is way more mature than, like, the way that I now interact with my male friends. But we were still doing that into our into our mid twenties.

现在没人再那样发邮件了，因为现在大家都只是在WhatsApp上发些简短的信息。但没错，那时候罗布在波士顿。那时，我许多最好的朋友都已经分散各地了。

And no one sends emails like that anymore because now we're all just, you know, doing what, obviously, everyone does, is WhatsApp ing each other, you know, short little things. But but yeah. So Rob Rob was Rob was in Boston. And, yeah, at that point, like, many of my best friends had dispersed by then.

然后生活继续。告诉我接下来发生了什么。

And then life continues to happen. Tell me tell me what came next.

然后结婚了。

Then get married.

恭喜。谢谢。

Congratulations. Thank you.

婚姻就像是恋爱关系的加强版，因为你想着，现在我结婚了。当然，并没有实际的规则说结婚后就不能见朋友。但有种内在的观念认为，既然你是丈夫了，就应该花更多时间在家，而不是和朋友出去。

Marriage is just like the relationship thing, but on steroids because you're like, well, now I'm married. So, like I mean, of course, there are no, like, actual rules saying, well, you can't go see your friends now that you're married. But there's this internalized idea. It's like, well, you know, now that you're a husband, you should be you should be spending a lot more time at home and not out with your friends.

你从哪儿学来的？我是好奇，你是从谁、什么或哪里得到这种信息的？

Where did you learn that from? Like, where were you who or what or where were you getting that message from? I'm just curious.

我想最好的回答方式是，那只是种感觉。是多年来看电影、电视剧和各种信息积累下来的感觉，关于男孩该做什么，男人该做什么。一个成年男人还总和朋友混在一起，就是长不大的孩子。对吧？

I think I think the best way I can answer that is that it it was it was just vibes. It was, like, vibes that come down from years and years and years of watching movies and TV shows and all kinds of messages about, like, this is what a boy does, and this is what a man does. And a a grown man who continues to, like, hang out with his friends is a man child. Right? Yeah.

一个成年男人应该在家陪妻子，或者在外面拼命赚钱养家。对吧？这就是你从各种文化输入中一遍又一遍接收到的信息。仿佛这就是应有的方式。

A grown man is supposed to be at home with his wife or out there crushing and making a lot of money so he can be the breadwinner and bring home a lot. Know, Right. That that's that's the kind of message over and over and over you're getting from from these various, like, cultural inputs. Right? Like, this is the way it's supposed to be.

然后有了孩子后，突然间，你就真的变得异常忙碌。

And then having kids, all of a sudden, now, you actually are insanely busy.

对。你是...我我说对就像我知道一样，但其实并没有...

Right. You're I I say right like I know, but have not any

你懂的。是的。你忙得不可开交。这是你人生中第一次真正无法随心所欲。对吧。

You get it. Yeah. You're you're insanely busy. For the first time in your life, you you you actually truly cannot do whatever the hell you want. Right.

结婚后你其实也不能完全随心所欲，因为那样对伴侣不礼貌。但有了孩子后要是还任性妄为，孩子可能会饿死。对吧？

You you kinda can't do whatever you want when you're married because it's rude to your partner. But, like, if you do whatever you want when you have a kid, like, the kid will starve and die. Right?

就像，你...

Like, you

无法...你知道吗，在众多没准备好的事情里，最让我措手不及的就是每天要洗的餐具和衣物数量。就像永远清理不完的烂摊子。而且连续几年都睡不好觉。抱歉吓到你别要孩子了。

can't you know, the thing I was not prepared for among many things was, like, just the amount of dishes and laundry that I was doing. Just, like, endless amounts of cleaning up. And and then you're not sleeping for years. Sorry to scare you off from having kids.

不会。这很好。听到这些很有帮助。

No. It's good. That's good to hear.

你你你很快...好吧，我说你会习惯。其实根本习惯不了。那时候确实没时间见朋友。但实际情况是，我越来越多地拒绝朋友邀约，或者干脆不主动联系，因为真的忙到焦头烂额。又累又不想晚上出门。

You you you quickly well, I say you get used to it. You don't get used to it. So you really do have less time to hang out with your friends at that point. But what what ended up happening was I was saying no to friends more or just, like, not reaching out to friends as much because I I was genuinely swamped. And I was was tired, and I didn't wanna go out at night.

只想睡个好觉之类的。对吧？但真正开始侵蚀友谊的是...等带孩子稍微轻松点了，比如孩子学会规律睡眠了，

Wanted to try to get a good night's sleep or whatever. Right? But the part where it started to get truly, like, corrosive to my friendships was, okay. Things start getting a little bit easier with the kids. Like, they get sleep trained.

现在我睡眠质量好转，也建立了更高效的家务流程，确实有了些空闲时间。但糟糕的是——已经几个月没见朋友了。我还会和朋友相处吗？我们还能聊些什么呢？

Now I'm sleeping better. I'm in more of a routine where I know how to do the laundry faster, and, like, I do have a little bit more free time on my hands. But, uh-oh, it's been months since I hung out with a friend. Do I even know how to hang out with a friend anymore? Like, what are we even gonna talk about?

好的，这正是我想探讨的。就像，在孩子们和各种责任交织的混乱中——这些当然都是正当的事——是否有那么一刻你突然抬头意识到：天啊，我已经好几个月没见过罗伯（或其他朋友的名字）了。这种醒悟是怎么产生的？

Okay. That's what I wanna focus on. It's like, was there a moment where you kind of looked up amidst the blur of of children and obligations, all these legitimate things, of course, and said, like, oh my god. It's been months since I've seen Rob or insert other friend here. Like, how did that realization come to you?

当时是什么感觉？

And what did it feel like?

这个嘛...我一开始还和妻子开玩笑说，看啊，我快变成那种典型的'孤独美国男性'统计数据了。但当时还只是当玩笑没当真。直到某个时刻，我才突然意识到——

Well well, I I started joking around with my wife. You know, look at me. I'm like becoming one of these cliche data points of like the lonely American male. But it was still kind of a joke that I didn't quite take seriously. And then at a certain point, I just started feeling like, oh, wait a second.

这确实是个问题。和很多新手父母一样，我和妻子会为育儿问题争执，比如谁承担夜间照料更少、谁付出更多。这正是我最应该联系其他正在经历同样困境的朋友的时候——我有好几个朋友几乎和我同时有了孩子，但我却没联系他们。

This is actually a problem. Like many, many new parents, I was arguing, you know, with my wife about our kids, you know, and like, who did the late you know, who did less of this responsibility and who is owed more of this? And it was it was exactly the kind of emotional moment in my life that I really should have reached out to other friends who were going through the exact same thing that I was going through. Because I had other friends who had kids pretty much at the exact same time as I did. And I wasn't reaching out to them.

我就是...特别是当我和妻子刚吵完架时，我无人可诉。难道要再和妻子倾诉这有多难吗？

I just I wasn't I had no one to especially if my wife and I were in a place where we had just gotten into an argument or something like, what am I gonna do? Just talk to my wife about how hard it was

让我们具体化这个例子。你会拿起手机想给朋友发信息或打电话吗？然后又是怎么想的？带我完整走一遍这个心路历程。

Let's that I got into an take that sort of example. Would you go to your phone and think about texting or calling a friend and then just be like, I mean take me through that thought process. What would you do?

说来好笑，我会拿起手机想着'我要给朋友发消息聊聊'，接着就开始纠结：'真要聊这个吗？'然后想'朋友自己也有烦心事，我这样抱怨合适吗？'最后——哦！这个播客更新了。点击。结果我就听起了播客。

I mean, it's funny. I would go to my phone, be like, I'm gonna text my friend and see if he's around to talk. And then I would be like, do I really wanna get into it? And then I'd be like, do I really wanna impose my whining on my friend who's also got his own shit going on and, like, you know, you know what? Oh, look.

我最终听了海量播客而不是联系朋友。这听起来像老套的桥段，但确实是我的真实经历。

There's a new episode of this podcast. Click. And then I end up listening to a podcast. And I just ended up listening to a tremendous number of podcasts instead of calling friends. That is that is act like, it's it's feels like the most cliched thing ever, but that is actually what happened to me.

告诉我你当时听的是什么节目？用哪些内容替代了朋友联络？

Tell me what show what what shows you were turning to? What were you listening to instead of calling a friend?

其实最开始我听的是冥想类播客，因为听说冥想有益身心健康，特别是当你...

So I started out actually listening to, like, podcasts about meditation because I had heard that meditation was good for you and, like When you have

小孩子，当然。

small kids, certainly.

当然。然后，就像，你知道的，我开始深入——我不会称之为兔子洞，但我，你知道，我后来开始听乔·罗根的播客，因为他几乎请过所有人上他的节目。

Of course. And and then, like, you know, started going I wouldn't call it a rabbit hole, but I, you know, I started, like eventually, like, I started listening to the Joe Rogan experience because he just has had everyone on his show.

而且他一聊就是四个半小时。

You And he's talking for, like, four and a half hours.

是啊是啊，他能聊很久很久。但他会邀请天体物理学家上节目，也请过迈克尔·波伦——我刚读完他的书，特别想听他多说些观点。

Yeah. Yeah. He's talking for a long, long, long time. But but, you know, like, he'd have astrophysicists on his show. He'd have Michael Pollan, whose book I had just read and really wanted to hear more from Michael Pollan on his show.

他还请过斯坦福教授讲多巴胺和成瘾科学。所以我听他的节目就是想获取些生活技巧之类的东西。

He he had this Stanford professor talking about dopamine and and and addiction science. And, you know, I so so I would I would listen to his shows just to try to pick up whatever, life hacks or whatever.

完全理解。

Totally.

再说回我这么做的原因——当时我感到不堪重负、孤独，各种情绪涌来。但与其找朋友倾诉（嗯），我选择自己解决问题：'听听播客就能找到答案'。

And again, the reason I'm doing this is because I'm feeling overwhelmed, lonely, all of these feelings. And instead of relating to, you know, other people and calling a friend Mhmm. I'm like, well, I can just solve these problems on my own. I'll I'll just listen to some podcasts, and I'll get the answers from the podcast. Yeah.

我完全可以靠自己搞定。

I can do this all on my own.

是啊，这种独狼式的自给自足对吧？就是情绪低落时，想通过自学自修来解决问题。

Yeah. I mean, it it's this kind of rogue self sufficiency. Right? Like, I'm not feeling so good emotionally or or or whatever, and I want to address this. But, you know, I'm going to fix this myself by listening and learning and working on myself.

罗根节目吸引我的正是那种'别找借口，像个男人一样'的态度

There was something in the Rogan thing that appealed to me, which was basically, like, stop making excuses, man up, you know

是啊。

Yeah.

我用的是带引号的‘像个男人’。但说真的，现在改变你生活最简单的方法——所有播客都这么说——就是去锻炼。去锻炼。别废话。

I'm using that in air quotes. But, like, man up and basically, the easiest thing you could do right now to change your life all of these podcasts said this. Go work out. Go work out. Stop.

别再胡思乱想。去他妈的举铁。懂吗？他们全都这么说。

Get out of your head. Pump some goddamn iron. Yeah. You know? And and they all said this.

我当时想，哦有意思，也许该试试。只要照顾好身体，不仅会更健康，生活的其他方面也会顺起来。

And I was like, oh, that's interesting. Maybe I should try that. If you just take care of your body, not only are gonna get healthier, everything else in your life is gonna fall into place.

确实。

Yeah.

某种程度上，这个建议特别吸引我，是因为我知道虽然坚持锻炼和举重很难，但比起深度的情感疗愈还是容易些。所以我就想，好吧试试吧。结果我三十七八岁到四十出头时，所有空闲时间都在干嘛？全在健身。

I think in a way, part of the reason why it appealed so much was it's like, I knew that even though it's really hard to exercise all the time and lift heavy weights, I knew that on some level it was easier than doing deep emotional work. So I was like, well, alright. I'll just try that. And it was like, what was I doing in my late thirties and early forties every spare moment I had? I was exercising.

参加CrossFit，冒着冻雨在展望公园跑步。就想着至少这样能战胜孤独感。

I was going to CrossFit. I was running outside in Prospect Park through freezing cold rain. Yeah. Because, you know, I had this idea that, like, well, at least if I'm doing this, I'll, you know, I'll be able to, like, basically conquer whatever lonely feelings I'm having.

哇。是啊。这简直是...肉体升华。

Wow. Yeah. And and and There's so physical sublimation. Yeah.

本质上就是认为生活该被碾压，而非享受。

And it was it was the idea, basically, that, like, life was to be crushed, not to be enjoyed.

而且这也是种孤独的修行——举起这个，轻松了就换更重的。改变的力量在你自己，还是完全聚焦个体内在的。所以能理解为什么有吸引力。

I mean and it also is a it's a solitary it's like, go and lift this thing. And then when that gets easy, lift it heavier. Yeah. The power is within you to change you, and it's still very, like, individual focused, intrapersonal. So I can see why it would appeal.

我是说，我在想，这是你有意识的选择吗？比如转向这些播客、健身之类的事情，而不是朋友？你意识到自己在以这种方式转移注意力吗？

I mean, I guess I wonder, like, was this a conscious choice on your end to to turn, like, towards these podcasts or or working out or whatever instead of friends? Like, were you aware that you were diverting sort of in that way?

我不认为我当时意识到了。嗯。我想我还在告诉自己，你知道，你没时间交朋友因为你太忙了。我也在否认自己感到孤独。对吧？

I don't think I was aware of it. Mhmm. I think I think I was still telling myself, you know, you don't have time for friends because you're so busy. I was also in denial about being lonely. Right?

我只是知道自己感觉不好，想要感觉好起来。我就想，哦，如果我锻炼，我就会感觉好。确实暂时感觉好了。他们承诺的内啡肽效应确实出现了。

I just knew that I felt I felt bad, and I wanted to feel good. And I was like, oh, well, if I exercise, I'll feel good. And I did feel good temporarily. There were the endorphins that that that they promised me would happen. They came.

完全理解。我觉得这是个非常重要的点。我真的认为我们仍然对自我认定为孤独感到非常不适，就像过敏一样，因为承认这一点不仅对自己，而且大声说出来都非常脆弱。首先，谢谢你这么说。但我理解为什么会被这些层面所屏蔽，比如'我不是那种会感到孤独的人'。

Totally. I think that's a really important point. And I'm I really think that there is still something very icky and, like, we're allergic to self identifying as lonely because it's very vulnerable to admit that not only to yourself, but also out loud. So first of all, thanks for saying that. But I understand why it would be shielded in these layers of, I'm not the kind of person that gets lonely.

而且，看，文化中有整个关于'incel'的现象。对吧？非自愿独身者。

And also, like, look, there's this whole thing in the culture of the incel. Right? The involuntary celibate.

对吧？完全正确。

Right? Totally.

那个孤独的家伙坐在他妈妈的地下室里对着电脑。这就是孤独男性的刻板印象。我觉得每个感到孤独的男性都害怕被归入那一类。

The lonely guy sitting in his mom's basement on his computer. Like, that's the stereotype of of the lonely man. And I think I think every man who feels lonely is, like, terrified of being grouped in with that.

真有意思。

So interesting.

是的。就像如果我承认自己孤独，那么，你知道，人们会不会认为我是某种'incel'怪胎之类的？是的。所以我觉得这也是原因之一。你会用除了'孤独'之外的每一个形容词。

Yeah. It's like if I if I admit that I'm lonely, then, you know, are people gonna think I'm some kind of incel freak or whatever? Yeah. So I think that's a part of it. And you're gonna use every adjective except for lonely.

你在害怕什么？当你准备给朋友打电话却转向播客时，你在担心会发生什么？是什么阻止了你？

What were you afraid of in calling you know, when you went to call a friend and then diverted to the podcast? What were you what were you worried would happen? Like, what was stopping you?

我曾害怕朋友们会觉得我太依赖他人。我不像那种兄弟帮派里的人。我在一个超级女权主义的家庭中长大。即便如此，我也深深内化了一个观念：作为男性展现软弱就等于不够男人。我只是不想被认为不够男人。

I was afraid that my friends would think that I was needy. I'm not like a bro. I grew up with like a super in a super feminist household. Even I had so deeply internalized the idea that showing weakness as a man is tantamount to not being a man. And I just didn't want to not be a man.

是啊。我害怕如果我打电话说‘嘿兄弟，我真的好孤独，独处让我很难过，我需要告诉你这些’，他们会反应‘天啊，什么鬼？’

Yeah. I was afraid that if I called and and said, hey, man, like, I'm I'm really lonely, and it makes me sad to be alone. And, you know, I just needed to tell you that. I was afraid that they'd be like, oh, god. What?

那也太矫情了吧？开玩笑吗？因为说到底，我被社会规训得认为男性间主要的相处方式——除非凌晨四点宿醉未醒时——就该是...

That's so soft. Like, are you kidding me? Because, you know, again, I've been conditioned to think that basically, like, the the main ways to relate to other dudes, unless it's 4AM and you've been warming up Right. A lot at a sleepover party

没错。

Right.

而男性表达情感的方式，在我看来只有两种是被接受的：插科打诨和愤怒发泄。对吧？你可以...

And and the main way of just, like, emoting generally as a man, I find, like, there are two modes that are acceptable, kidding around and anger. Right? Like, you're allowed to

真有意思。

So interesting.

你可以和兄弟干架，但不能拥抱他们。所以我要么愤怒要么开玩笑。要是我打电话给朋友倾诉内心的悲伤，他会不会觉得我...（这里可以用无数贬义词来形容）

You're allowed to fight other dudes, but you're not allowed to hug a dude. So either I'm allowed to be angry or I'm allowed to joke around. So if I call my friend and I'm just sincere and talking about, like, the sadness in my heart or whatever, is he gonna think that I'm, like, you know, I could use many different derogatory ways to say

不够男人。这观点太有意思了，感谢你的坦诚。不过我在想，你提到年轻时曾和朋友们有过深度情感交流，特别是你和罗伯互发的那些邮件。

less of a man. That's so interesting, and I really appreciate you laying it out. But, you know, I'm thinking about how you talked about when you were younger. You had all these deeply emotional conversations with your friends. I'm thinking specifically about those emails you and Rob sent to each other.

你说罗伯是你最亲密的朋友之一。这些年你们还有联系吗？你们的关系有什么变化？

You said that Rob was one of your closest friends. Were you in touch with him at all? Like, how had your relationship changed over the years?

现在罗伯在北卡罗来纳做博士后，比波士顿更远了。我们主要通过一个持续近二十年的群邮件聊天保持联系。这些年打电话越来越少，这个邮件组里还有些我们戏称的‘分会’——比如健身分会，那几个爱...

At this point, Rob is doing a postdoc fellowship in North Carolina. So even further away than Boston, obviously. I am mostly communicating with Rob through basically like a group email chat that we've had going now for like almost twenty years. And so I'm communicating with him and other friends through this through this group chat, calling him less and less and less over the years, a subset of this email list there are, like, kind of what we like to call caucuses in the email list. There's the fitness caucus, the guys who, like, have a they're, like, little side

群聊。绝对的。

group chat. Totally.

然后还有个自行车旅行团。其实我是发起这个团的人之一。我说，我们每年组织一次自行车旅行吧。这个活动持续了很多很多年，但我后来不参加了。我有了孩子，找了各种借口说自己太忙。

And there there was a bike trip group. I actually was one of the people that initiated this group. And I said, let's do a bike trip once a year. And and that bike trip continued for many, many years, but I stopped going on it. I had kids, and I made all the excuses why I was too busy.

等到孩子大一点，生活稍微稳定些后，我对自己说今年一定要参加。我告诉骑行团的人：'今年我一定来，今年一定来'。结果最后关头又放鸽子，说'对不起大家，我来不了'。

And once once my life started to stabilize a little bit when my kids got a little bit older, I I told myself, like, I'm really gonna go on the bike trip this year. And I would tell the biking group, I'm coming this year. I'm coming this year. And then I would, like, flake out at the last second and be like, I can't sorry, guys. I can't do it.

到了2021年2月，我下定决心今年必须去。你知道吗？那时候我已经把友谊搁置到太过分的程度了。

And then, like, in 02/2021, I was like, I'm definitely going this year. You know what? I have really, at this point, sidelined my friendships to a degree that is just way it's gone way too far.

你甚至能意识到这点。是啊。

You could even recognize. Yeah. So

圣诞节假期时，我在波士顿的酒吧见到了骑行团的老伙计们。这些人里很多过去十年每年都参加，而我已经八年没去了。我主动反复提骑行活动，就想表明'今年我一定来'。

it was Christmas break, and I met up with basically the crew that goes on this bike trip at at a bar in Boston. And a lot of these guys were guys who had gone had gone every year for the past decade. And I hadn't been on one for, like, eight years. And I basically kept trying to bring up the bike trip proactively because I really wanted to demonstrate I'm I'm coming this year.

对。

Right.

我知道以前放过鸽子，但今年真的来。结果罗伯直接说：'得了吧，你不会来的。你总说来，从没兑现过'。后来他提起我某次特别过分的放鸽子行为

I know I flaked out in the past, but I'm coming this year. And Rob basically was like, yeah, whatever. You're not coming. Like like, you always say you're gonna come, and you never come. And one thing led to another, and he brought up a particularly egregious example of when I had flaked out

就这次旅行。

On this trip.

自行车旅行那次。

On the bike trip.

但罗布提起了这件事。

But Rob brought this up.

是啊。他就那样，你知道，就像，你从没真正承认过那件事有多混蛋，坦白说。然后我就开始防御了。我说，你为什么要把将近十年前的事翻出来？我现在都四十多岁了。

Yeah. And he was just like, you know, like like, you never fully accounted for what a dick move that was, frankly. And then I started getting defensive. I'm like, why are you bringing up some shit that happened nearly a decade ago? Like, you know, I'm in my forties now.

就像，你知道，是的。那确实有点混蛋，绝对是个混蛋行为。我们还是聊聊这次自行车旅行的具体安排吧。能吗，拜托？我们就谈这个旅行行不行？

Like, you know, like yes. It was kind of a dick it was definitely a dick move. Let's just talk about the logistics of this biking trip. Can we, please? Can we just talk about this trip?

后来事情越闹越大，言辞越来越激烈。我并不是个暴力的人。事实上，我这辈子从没打过架。不知道是不是听了太多乔·罗根播客还是怎么，但我当时直接对他说——他当时脸都快贴到我脸上了——我说：如果你他妈不从我面前滚开，我就把你满嘴牙都打掉。

And eventually, one thing led to another, and, like, the words got more and more heated. And I am not a violent person. In fact, I've actually never been in a fight in my entire life. And I don't know if it was listening to too much of the Joe Rogan stuff or whatever, but I just said to him at one point, I said he was getting really close to my face. And I said, if you don't get the fuck out of my face, I'm gonna knock every fucking one of your teeth out.

哇哦。

Woah.

我是认真的。我气疯了。我这辈子从没说过这种话。而对方是我最亲爱的老友之一，我最珍视的朋友。好在其他人把我们拉开，没真的打起来。

And I meant it. I was so mad. And I've never said anything like that in my entire life. And this was something I was saying to my dear beloved one of my oldest friends, my most beloved friends. And it got broken up by the other guys before anything led to actual blows.

我们分道扬镳。我当时...真的气炸了。

We went our separate ways. And, like, I was I was really pissed.

我能问问吗？嗯。你离开酒吧时很生气。当然。那你感到难堪吗？

Can I ask you? Yeah. When you were, like, leaving the bar, you were angry. Sure. Were you embarrassed?

还是伤心？当时你脑子里最先涌现的情绪是什么？

Were you sad? Like, what were the emotions in your brain immediately after?

当时最直接的情绪就是对他的愤怒。嗯。因为愤怒比面对其他情绪...更容易。是啊。

I mean, the the the emotions immediately after were just anger at him. Mhmm. Because it was easier to feel angry Yeah. Than to feel emotions. Yeah.

对我来说，把一切归咎于他要容易得多。比如，是他先挑起争执，他他根本不该...

It was easier for me to just be like, it's all his fault. Like, he he picked a fight with me He from can't

直接走吧。嗯。

just go. Yeah.

他居然翻出十年前的旧账。你说这人是不是有问题？

He's bringing up some shit from a decade ago. You know, what's wrong with this guy?

是啊。

Yeah.

说实话，当时我确实想过：去他的吧，我我不需要再和这人做朋友了。哇。真的。

I mean, truth truth be told, like, there was a point at which I was like, you know what? Fuck it. I I don't need to be friends with this guy anymore. Wow. Yeah.

现在回想起来，我我简直不敢相信自己会有这种念头。但当时觉得，与其掏心掏肺地谈那次冲突中的感受，不如干脆断交来得轻松。

Like, which is looking back at him, like, I I can't believe that that thought even crossed my mind. But it was like, it was actually easier for me to just just move on and not be friends than to, like, have a heart to heart conversation about the feelings that were involved in that exchange.

我理解那种感受。

I understand that.

没错。就是从那时起我开始反思，发现自己已经八年没去旅行了。我越来越意识到自己有多忽视友情，由于常年疏于经营友谊，我甚至习惯了独处，对重建友谊的念头感到畏惧。可以说那场争执是个转折点——我突然意识到，虽然我把所有号称对心理健康有益的事都列为优先项，比如戒酒、健身、冥想、做心理咨询...

And yeah. And and that's when I started reflecting on, like, the fact that I hadn't gone on any trip for eight years. And I started just thinking more and more about how much I had deprioritized friendship, and then how much I had, as a result of years of deprioritizing friendship, how much I had gotten accustomed to being alone and almost being intimidated by the idea of trying to rekindle my friendships. And so I would say that fight was the real precipitating moment where I was like, I have made every other thing that is supposedly good for your mental health a priority. Like, I've done all of the things.

我我不再喝酒了，坚持锻炼，练习冥想，还接受心理治疗，明白吗？

I I don't drink alcohol anymore. I exercise. I meditate. I was in therapy. I you know?

却偏偏没做最重要的事：和真实的人面对面相处，把友谊放在首位。这个认知成为了我的觉醒时刻——我必须尝试改变现状。

And yet I didn't do the number one most important thing, which was to hang out with real people in person and prioritize friendship. And that I think that was, like, the tipping point for me where I was just like, I I have to try to try to change it.

当我们回来时，山姆采取了措施重新与朋友们建立联系。接下来会讲到。所以你经历了这一刻。你经历了这场争吵。听起来这对你来说极具启发性。

When we come back, Sam takes steps to reconnect with his friends. That's next. So you have this moment. You have this fight. And it sounds extremely it sounds clarifying for you.

就像，我需要做出改变。也许我早该这么做了，但我要勇敢地尝试这个改变。那具体是怎样的？你是如何开始重新调整生活重心，把友谊放在更重要的位置的？还有，你去参加自行车旅行了吗？

Like, I need to make a change. And I've maybe needed to make one for a while, but I'm I'm gonna be brave and and try to make this change. What did that look like? Like, how did you try to start to reprioritize and recenter friendship in your life? And also, did you go on the bike trip?

那年的自行车旅行最终没有成行。好吧。我想部分原因是酒吧那次不愉快的经历。是的。但当我开始处理这个问题时，情况是怎样的？

The the the bike trip that year ended up not happening. Okay. And I think I think in part because of that that ugly experience at the bar. Yeah. But I what did it look like when I started addressing it?

有趣的是，我找到了一个播客。

It's funny. You know, I I found a podcast.

别又是播客。得了吧，山姆。

Not podcasting. Come on, Sam.

但这是一种完全不同的播客。这个播客有非常明确的目的，叫做‘年度男人’，旨在为那些与孤独抗争的男性提供建议。好吧。

But this was a totally different kind of podcast. This podcast has a very explicit purpose. Podcast is called Man of the Year. It has a very explicit purpose, which is to offer advice to men who are struggling with loneliness. Okay.

只要

Well, as long

你找到了真正适合你的东西。是的。

as you find exactly the right thing for you. Yeah.

我需要听到有人用非常直白的男性语言说出来。对吧？所以，真正触动我的一点是‘做那个主动的朋友’。意思是，不要等别人打电话给你，主动打电话约他们出来。

And I needed to hear it said out loud in very sort of bro plain language. Right? So so, like, one of the things that that really resonated with me was be the friend. Be the friend means, like, don't wait for the other guy to call you. Just call and ask them to hang out.

对吧？是的。听这个节目的美妙之处在于，对于那些不喜欢‘感性脆弱’那一套的男性来说很容易接受。他们只是说，‘好了，伙计们。伙计们。’

Right? Yeah. And and the the the beautiful thing about listening to this show is that, like, it it's easy for guys to listen to who are not into the touchy feely stuff of, you know, get deep inside your vulnerability and this. Instead, they're just like, alright, guys. Guys.

各位，其实很简单。这里有一些生活小窍门。好吗？这是关于维持友谊的妙招。

Guys. It's very simple. Here's some life hacks. Alright? Here's some hacks for friendship.

明白吗？TCS。懂吗？它代表每周发短信。嗯哼。

Alright? TCS. Okay? It stands for text weekly. Mhmm.

每周发短信。每月打电话。嗯哼。每季度见次面。哇哦。

Text weekly. Call monthly. Mhmm. And see quarterly. Woah.

懂了？TCS。

Okay? TCS.

所以你只需要每年见朋友四次，每月通话一次，每周发条信息，就这样。设个提醒事项，因为记在提醒里你就必须执行。这是他们提供的比较像技巧类的建议，我觉得确实有帮助。本质上，这解除了我害怕显得 needy（ needy）、脆弱或爱抱怨的心理负担。

So all you have to do is see your friends four times a year, call them once a month, and text them once a week, and, like, that's all you have to do. You set it in your reminders, and it's like and then because it's in your reminders, you just have to do it. So that was, like, one of the more kind of hack hack based tips that they gave that I did kinda find helpful. Yeah. And, essentially, this is the antidote to my fear of seeming needy or weak or whiny or whatever.

顺便说，当我开始主动联系朋友后——你猜怎么着？他们完全愿意聊情感话题。男性也渴望情感联结。

And and by the way, once I started calling my friends and, you know, it turns out, gee, who would have thought? They're totally willing to talk about emotions. Like, men do want to emotionally connect.

是啊。

Yeah.

从没人说'兄弟抱歉，我不谈悲伤只聊体育'这种话。

Like, no one has been like, bro, like, sorry. I don't I don't talk about sadness, bro. I only talk about sports. Sorry.

还记得早期某次通话或聚会吗？当时紧张吗？像是重返久违的领域？

Do you remember, like, an early phone call or even an early hangout? Were you nervous? Like, you were reentering this place you hadn't been.

记得。有位大学室友在国外生活多年后搬回本市，住得离我不远却很久没见。虽然我很在乎他，但直到我主动联系——他立刻回应'好啊'。

Yeah. There was a specific friend who was one of my college roommates, a guy who had lived abroad for a long time, and we felt kinda out of touch, who who moved back to the city and, you know, lived not that far from me. And yet, I still and I love this guy, but, like, I still hadn't seen him, you know, in a really, really long time, even though he now lived near me. I'm making the effort. And then he's like, alright.

嗯，你知道，格林威治村有场音乐会我想去。我就想，好吧。行吧。其实我并不是真的想去，因为我有点紧张。嗯哼。

Well, you know, there's this concert that I wanna go to in in Greenwich Village. And I'm like, okay. Alright. Like, I really don't actually wanna go because I'm, like, nervous. Mhmm.

基本上是因为我生疏了，你知道，作为朋友相处。我们会无话可说吗？会不会显得很勉强？随便啦。而且现在是冬天，我就想，哦，地上还有半融的雪泥。

Because I'm out of of practice, basically, having you know, being being a friend. Like, are we gonna have nothing to talk about? Is it gonna feel forced? Whatever. And it's the winter, and I'm like, oh, it's gonna be like, there's like slushy on the ground.

我就想，我真的要坐那么久的火车进城吗？因为我其实并不想去。

I'm like, do I have to take the train all the way in because I didn't really wanna go.

确实。

Right.

但转念一想，因为，你看，我现在觉得，你知道吗？你正在努力做这件事。你得去。懂吗？去吧，伙计。

But again, because, like, I'm I'm now like, you know what? You're making an effort to do this. You're gonna you're gonna go. You know? Do it, man.

明白吗？我得给自己打气。然后我去了，当然，结果完全轻松自然。

You know? I had to, like, psych myself up. And I and I go, and, of course, it's totally easy and natural.

觉得勉强吗？

Feel forced?

一点也不。嗯哼。完全轻松自然。我问了些以前从未问过的关于他工作的事。然后我开始告诉他一些我在

Not at all. Mhmm. It's totally easy and natural. I'm asking him stuff about his work that I've never asked him before. And then I started to tell him a little bit about the struggles that I'd had in

这段时间

this period

感到孤独时的挣扎。而且我的孤独确实影响了我的创造力。因为陷入创作低谷，我更不想和人交往，因为我觉得，唉，我不想因为写作瓶颈什么的拖累别人。我开始和他们聊起所有这些事。

where I was where I was feeling lonely. And also my loneliness was definitely affecting my creativity. And because I was in the creative dumps, it made me even less wanting to hang out with people because I was like, well, I don't wanna drag them down because I have writer's block or whatever. And I started to tell them about all that stuff.

等等，等一下。对你来说，能向妻子以外的人大声说出这些话似乎意义重大。就像，和另一个男性分享这些感觉很不容易。

Wait. Hold on. That feels like a big deal for you to say that out loud to someone that's not your wife. Like, that feels big to share that with another guy.

但你知道有趣的是什么吗？实际上做这件事并不觉得困难。他就只是说，听着老兄，你是个有创造力的人。这就是成长路上的一部分。

And you know what's funny, though? Like, it didn't it it didn't actually feel hard to do it. And he was just like, listen, man. Like, this is you're a creative person. Like, this is part of the the path.

而且我们都会遇到困难，这完全没关系的

And and we all struggle, and, like, it's totally it's okay that

你能这么说真的很暖心。

you It's really nice hear.

听到这些话太棒了。我们那晚过得特别愉快。在Van Lewin吃了超大冰淇淋甜筒，

It was so nice to hear. And and we had such a great night. Like, we we had, like, enormous, like, ice cream cones at Van Lewin with,

简直是有史以来最夸张的夜晚。那里有，

like, way too night ever. There's, like,

堆得老高的冰淇淋球。他还点了华夫筒，我就说好吧我也要华夫筒。所以我们吃了这辈子最大的冰淇淋。

way too many scoops of ice cream. And, like and and he orders the waffle cone. I'm like, alright. I'm getting the waffle cone too. So we got the biggest ice creams ever.

我们去听演唱会，演出精彩极了。所有歌词我们都记得，全程跟唱。我真心不想让夜晚结束，但午夜列车快到了。我必须赶上那班车，否则就要被困在城里。

We go to this concert. It was such a great concert. We knew all the like, all the words came back to us. I really didn't want the night to end, but, like, it was getting close to the midnight train. I literally had to get on that train, or I was gonna be, like, stuck in the city.

我记得给妻子打电话说，我度过了有史以来最棒的夜晚。她问发生了什么？为什么这么棒？我说我也不知道。

And I remember calling calling my wife. I remember saying, like, I just had, like, the best night ever. She's like, well, what happened? What did you why was it so great? I was like, I don't know.

就是感觉特别美好。我一直用笼统的话描述，但真正珍贵的是和这位老友共处的时光。对。哪怕只是获得一点认同，分享些许心事，都让人无比舒畅。

Just like it was just so great. And I kept saying these general things. But it was the very act of just being with this old beloved friend. Yeah. And even just getting a little bit of validation, and even just sharing a little bit of emotional stuff that just felt so good.

我记得当时在火车上的感觉，望着窗外，灯光模糊成一片，几乎像一条条光的丝带。我只记得那种感觉，仿佛站在一扇关闭已久的门前，现在门开了。我能透过门看到另一边，那里有我的朋友们，他们在等待。他们等着我去和他们一起玩。而我需要做的，就是作为朋友，打个电话，去和他们相聚。

I remember having this feeling of being on the train, looking out of the window and seeing the blur of the lights, almost looking like ribbons of light. And I just remember this feeling of, I'm standing in front of a door that felt like it was closed for so long, and now the door is open. And I can see through the door, and on the other side of the door are my friends, and they're waiting. They're waiting for me to come hang out. And all I have to do is be the friend and call them and go hang out.

我记得当时情绪非常激动，脑海中浮现那个画面，想着，我怎么能让自己这么多年不与这些我爱的人联系？我又是如何说服自己那是正确的道路？经过多年拼命工作和疯狂锻炼，却依然无法减轻孤独感后，终于意识到，哦，就是这样。这就是答案。我只需要多和朋友相处。

And I remember feeling really emotional, like having that image in my mind and thinking, how did I let myself go for so many years without connecting to all these people who I love? And how did I convince myself that that was the right path? After years of really grinding and doing insane amounts of exercise that didn't make me feel any less lonely after so long of that, finally realizing like, oh, this is it. This is this is the answer. Like, all I have to do is hang out more.

没有什么，真的没有什么能像和我爱的朋友在一起、在群体中那样让我感到快乐。这就像是奇迹般的解药。

And like nothing, nothing has ever worked in terms of making me feel happy. Like being with the friends that I love and being in community. And, like, this is the miracle cure.

罗布在哪里？你们俩现在怎么样？你是怎么和他一起走过那扇门的？

Where's Rob? How are you two now? How did you walk through the door with him?

我们确实交换了一些发自内心的邮件。嗯。后来我们通了电话，我原本担心会是一次非常尴尬、艰难的对话，结果却是一次非常美好的交谈。我真的很喜欢，那种感觉让我可以聊上十个小时，只是因为晚餐迟到，大家都在等我，才不得不挂断。那次通话之后，我感觉和他亲近多了。

We did exchange some we exchanged some heartfelt emails. Mhmm. And then eventually, we we got on the phone and had what I was worried was gonna be a really awkward, really hard conversation, and was a totally wonderful conversation. And I really like, it was the kind of thing where I I could have stayed on the phone for ten hours and I just had to get off because I was late to dinner and everyone was waiting for me. After after that call, it is just it it I already feel so much closer to him.

你找回了你的朋友。是的。

You have your friend back. Yeah.

是的，是的。对我来说确实是这样。希望对他来说也是如此。

Yeah. Yeah. It does feel like that to me. I hope it feels like that to him too.

我们会把这期播客发给何塞。好的。你提到你有个儿子，对吧？是的。

We'll send this podcast to Jose. Okay. You've mentioned you have a son. Right? Yeah.

你和儿子聊过友谊吗？

Have you talked about friendship with your son?

我经常思考如何培养一个不像我当年那样受限的男孩。这很难，因为我会和他一起看电影。比如，我一直在给他介绍我小时候最喜欢的电影。其中一部我最爱的电影是《比尔和泰德的奇妙冒险》，

I I think a lot about how to how do I raise a boy who won't be limited in the way that I was. It's hard because I watch movies with him. Like, I've been introducing him to some of my favorite movies from when I was a kid. Like, one of my favorite movies was Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure, which

好电影。

Great movie.

这是部友情喜剧，伙伴喜剧。我特意放给儿子看，因为这部电影展现了我心目中男性友谊应有的模样——他们有共同的行话、默契的手势。可当看到泰德被追杀骑士‘杀害’的突兀情节时，整个观影氛围突然变得不和谐。

It's a friendship comedy. It's a friend it's a buddy comedy. And I showed that to my son because, like, part of what I love about that movie is that I think it models, like, what what male friendship can be like. Like, they have all kinds of shared lingo, they have shared hand motions. And, you know and I'm watching that movie with him, and there's this moment that was really discordant where it appears that Ted has been murdered by one of these knights that's been chasing them.

比尔踉跄发现泰德‘尸体’时崩溃大喊‘不，这不可能’，结果下一秒泰德就从侧门蹦出来喊‘我还活着’。比尔瞬间从绝望转为狂喜——这个情绪转折特别动人。

And Bill stumbles upon his body, and he's like, oh my god, like, Ted, what no. Please, like, this can't be. And like, he's like freaking out. And then like a second later, Ted emerges from a side door and he's like, I'm still alive. And then Bill is like relieved and overjoyed.

他激动地喊着‘天啊我以为你死了’，两人紧紧相拥，比尔把下巴抵在泰德颈窝——那是个充满爱意的瞬间，是朋友间纯粹的情感流露。

He's like, oh my god, like, I thought you were dead and you're alive. This is the best moment ever. And they hug and they're like, he nestles his chin into Ted's neck. And they're like, it's a moment of love. It's a moment of love between two friends.

可拥抱不到一秒他们就触电般分开，对视着骂了个F开头的侮辱性词汇（具体词我不愿复述）。

And they hug for like a second, and then they get startled and pull away. And they look at each other, and they say a word that I'm not gonna say because it's an ugly word. But it's a word that starts with F. Is a Oh derogatory

天啊。

my gosh.

我儿子当时很困惑，追问我‘他们怎么了’。我没法解释，但正是这种文化暗示让我逐渐疏远了男性友谊。

I'm watching, though, my son, he was confused by that. He was like, what happened there? And I didn't wanna explain it to him. But it was like, that's how I got to the point where I alienated myself from my friendships. Mhmm.

就像我女儿总说要嫁给闺蜜完全没问题，可当我儿子说想娶兄弟时，社会却传递着‘男人不能太亲密’的潜规则——这双重标准让我痛心。

Like, it's stuff like that, which, you know, my son like, I'm sure that my son got the kind of message that, like, you're not really supposed to get too close to your male friends. If you're a guy, like, you can't get that close because that could mean something. You know? And and it was right around that time that, you know, my daughter, who's who's a couple years younger, you know, was talking about how she wanted to marry her best friend all the time. And and and my son was like, yeah, I wanna marry, you know, my best friend too.

他以前常对朋友说‘我爱你’，见面总要长久拥抱。可当我再问‘还想娶那个朋友吗’，他却说‘不了’——

And and he and he used to say, like, I love you to to to this friend. And he used to always give give a long hug and say, like, I love you. I can't wait to see you again. And I remember asking him, do you, you know, do you still wanna marry that friend? And then he's like, nah.

理由是‘怕他觉得我变态’。我甚至不知道他懂‘变态’这个词。为什么女儿能自由表达对闺蜜的爱，儿子却连说爱兄弟都要顾虑？这种差异让我心碎。

Like, because I don't want him to think I'm sus. And I didn't even know that he knew the word sus. But and I just was, like, so heartbroken by that because I felt like he should be able to say he loves his friend. And and why if my daughter is allowed to say that she wants to marry her friend, and that's not there's no stigma around that at all. Like, why can't my son say that?

但我能问你吗？可以。你能对朋友说'我爱你'吗？你现在会这样说吗？

But can I ask you? Yeah. Can you say I love you to your friend, and do you now?

我...我说得越来越多了。以前完全说不出口，现在我会说了。不过还是说得很快，比如'爱你啊兄弟'、'爱你'这样。

I I have said it more and more. I used to not be able to say it at all, and now I do say it. And I still kind of say it fast. I'm like, love you, man. Love you.

总是在电话快挂断时才说。但确实说出口了。而且说出来感觉很好。我正在练习说得更慢些。我希望能看着朋友的眼睛说：'嘿兄弟'。

Right at the end of the phone call. But I say it. And it does feel good to say it. And I'm working on saying it a little bit slower. And I would love to be able to, like, look my friend in the eye and say, hey, man.

'我爱你。谢谢你...谢谢今晚能出来。我真的很爱你。'我希望能这样自然表达。现在还没完全达到这种境界。

I love you. Thanks for, you know, thanks for, like, coming out tonight. I I really love you. Like, I'd love to be able to do that. I'm not not quite the Jedi yet.

我能说吗？

Can I say?

当然。我觉得你一定能做到。

Yeah. I think you're gonna get there.

希望如此。

I hope so.

我知道你一定能做到。

I know you're gonna get there.

好吧...你给了我信心，我会试试看的。

Alright. Well well, you're giving me some confidence. I'm gonna try it.

山姆·格兰菲尔森，非常感谢你。谢谢这次对话。

Sam Gramfelsson, thank you so much. Thank you for this conversation.

谢谢。感谢邀请我。

Thanks. Thanks for having me.

感谢大家的收听。正如开头所说，《现代爱情》节目在每日推送中仅剩最后几周了。如果你希望继续收听——我真心希望如此——节目描述中提供了订阅链接。我们还有大量《现代爱情》内容等你探索。订阅后不仅能提前几天听到新剧集，作为《纽约时报》订阅用户，每周还能收听最新爱情散文的朗读版。

Thanks for listening, everyone. Like we said at the top, modern love is only in the daily feed for a few more weeks. If you wanna continue hearing the show, and I really hope you do, we've got links to subscribe to Modern Love in the description. And we've got so much more Modern Love there for you to hear. Not only do you get Modern Love episodes a few days earlier than on the daily feed, but if you're a New York Times subscriber, you'll also get the latest modern love essays read aloud each week.

订阅用户还可访问完整的《现代爱情》往期库，海量内容待你发掘。想到你们即将听到这些，我就兴奋不已。只需点击本期节目描述中的播客应用链接。《现代爱情》团队成员包括：艾米·珀尔、克里斯蒂娜·约瑟夫、戴维斯·兰德、艾丽莎·古铁雷斯、艾米丽·朗、珍·波扬特、林恩·利维、里瓦·戈德堡和莎拉·柯蒂斯。本期由艾米·珀尔制作。

Subscribers also get access to the full back catalog of modern love, and there is a ton there to explore. I'm so excited for you to hear it. Just click the link to your podcast app in this episode's description. The Modern Love team is Amy Pearl, Christina Joseph, Davis Land, Elisa Gutierrez, Emily Lang, Jen Poyant, Lynn Levy, Riva Goldberg, and Sarah Curtis. This episode was produced by Amy Pearl.

戴维斯·兰德和珍·波扬特担任编辑。主题音乐由丹·鲍威尔创作。本期原创音乐来自丹·鲍威尔、艾丽西亚·皮托普、黛安·王、玛丽昂·洛萨诺和罗温·内米斯托。混音由丹尼尔·拉米雷斯完成，录音棚技术支持来自麦迪·马西洛和尼克·皮特曼。《现代爱情》专栏由丹尼尔·琼斯主编。

It was edited by Davis Land and Jen Poyant. The Modern Love theme music is by Dan Powell. Original music in this episode by Dan Powell, Alicia Pitoupe, Diane Wong, Marion Lozano, and Rowan Nemisto. This episode was mixed by Daniel Ramirez with studio support from Maddie Masiello and Nick Pittman. The modern love column is edited by Daniel Jones.

米娅·李是《现代爱情》项目编辑。若想向《纽约时报》投稿散文或微型爱情故事，节目备注中附有投稿指南。我是安娜·马丁，感谢收听。

Mia Lee is the editor of modern love projects. If you'd like to submit an essay or a tiny love story to the New York Times, we have the instructions in our show notes. I'm Anna Martin. Thanks for listening.