我们的餐厅评论家畅谈

你好，我是桑德拉·e·加西亚，《纽约时报》的记者。我在风尚版块工作，我们通过追踪文化动态来理解这个复杂的世界。我们想带你站在文化变迁的最前沿，告诉你事物为何成为潮流。正是订阅用户的支持，才让《纽约时报》能够持续报道这些超越突发新闻的深度故事。

Hi. My name is Sandra e Garcia, and I'm a reporter at the New York Times. I write for the styles desk where we try to understand our complicated world by keeping up with culture. We wanna take you to the forefront of cultural shifts and let you know why things are trending. Our subscribers make this kind of coverage possible so The New York Times can continue to highlight the stories that go beyond breaking news.

请访问nytimes.com/subscribe订阅我们，帮助我们持续把握文化脉搏。

Help us keep a pulse on culture by subscribing at nytimes.com slash subscribe.

嗨，我是娜塔莉。这里是《每日新闻》的语音信箱。请留言告诉我们您想向时报新餐厅评论家特贾尔·拉奥和莉加娅·马珊提出的问题。感谢来电。嘿，各位。

Hey, Natalie here. You've reached the Daily's voicemail line. Leave us a message please with your questions for the Times new restaurant critics, Tejal Rao and Ligaya Mashan. Thanks for calling. Hey, guys.

我是塞尔文。还有罗宾。你好，我叫安德鲁。

It's Selvin. And Robin. Hi. My name is Andrew.

嗨，娜塔莉。我叫亚历克莎。

Hey, Natalie. My name is Alexa.

我超爱每天早上堵车时听《每日新闻》。我住在世界美食之都——纽约皇后区。为它打call。

I love listening to The Daily while I'm sitting in freaking traffic every morning. I live in the food capital of the world, Queens, New York. Stand up.

几周前，我们邀请订阅用户来电提问。

A few weeks ago, we asked you, our subscribers, to call in and ask us some questions.

我来自华盛顿特区，现居住在盐湖城。

I am from Washington DC. I live in Salt Lake City.

我来自加拿大。

From Canada here.

我是从阿拉斯加打来的。

I'm calling from Alaska.

来自印第安纳州的南本德。还有佐治亚州的亚特兰大。

From South Bend, Indiana. From Atlanta, Georgia.

我是从布鲁克林打来的，现在正在骑自行车。哦，还有帕尼尼——我的猫也在这儿。喵。

I'm calling from Brooklyn. Currently on my bike. Oh, and Panini. Panini, my cat, is also here. Meow.

喵。我有些问题想问餐厅评论家们，我这就一一提问。

Meow. And I had questions for the restaurant critics. I'll just rifle through them.

具体来说，是给我们《纽约时报》美食评论家们的问题，而且你准备了很多问题。

Specifically, questions for our food critics here at The New York Times, and you had a lot of them.

我有三个问题要问美食评论家。

I have three questions for the food critic.

我有两个问题要问你。

I have two questions for you.

我有几个问题想问美食评论家。

I had a couple questions for food critic.

哦，我想我还有个第三个问题。刚想到的。我的第三个问题是，非常感谢。希望能得到解答。

Oh, and then I guess I have a third question too. Just thought of it. My third question is, thanks so much. I hope I can get my questions answered.

今天我与特贾尔·拉奥和莉加娅·马尚交谈，试图为你们获取一些答案。这里是《每日播报》。莉加娅、特贾尔，欢迎来到《每日播报》。很高兴你们能来。

Today, I talked to Tejal Rao and Ligaya Mashan and tried to get you some answers. This is The Daily. Ligaya, Tejal, welcome to The Daily. It is wonderful to have you.

非常感谢邀请我们。

Thank you so much for having us.

是的。谢谢邀请我。

Yeah. Thanks for having me.

我们在节目中发起了一个征集活动，邀请听众为你们提交问题——拨打我们提供的号码，向新上任的餐厅评论家们提出任何疑问。说实话反响太热烈了，感觉能聊上好几个小时。我们收到了数百个问题。我想先问一个大家特别好奇的问题：怎样才能成为一名餐厅评论家？

So we did this call out on the show where we asked people to send in questions for you guys, to to call a number that we gave them and to ask whatever they wanted to ask of our new restaurant critics. And the response was honestly overwhelming. Like, we could be here for hours. There were hundreds of questions that we received. And so I wanna start the conversation by asking you guys one of the things that I think a lot of people are very eager to understand, which is how does one become a restaurant critic?

你的职业道路是怎样的？莉佳雅，从你开始说吧。

What was your path to this work? Ligaya, let's start with you.

哇。说起来我成为美食作家纯属偶然，我成长过程中根本不知道还有这种职业。我在檀香山长大，母亲是菲律宾人，父亲来自英国。我母亲常说她刚来美国时连米饭都不会煮。

Wow. So I am a bit of an accidental food writer in that, when I was growing up, I I don't think that we even talked about there being such things as as food writers. I grew up in Honolulu, and my mother is from The Philippines. My father is from England. And so my mother, she actually came when she came to The United States, she famously says that she didn't even know how to make a pot of rice.

所以做饭都是我父亲负责。作为英国人，他当然最拿手的是咖喱。

And so my dad did all the cooking. And being from England, of course, his dish was curry. And

没错，经典的英国菜式。

Yeah. The classic English dish.

我成长过程中，必须承认这种‘经典英式咖喱’和真正的印度咖喱相去甚远，但我觉得特别美味。在我家，食物更多是为了果腹，绝不是精致料理。我们喝果珍饮料，用奶粉冲牛奶。

I was growing up. The classic English dish, I have to say, did not resemble any curry that is actually really an Indian curry, but I thought it was delicious. In my household, I think I thought of food as mostly something for survival. So I I definitely didn't grow up as a gourmet. You know, in my house, we we drank Tang and, you know, there was powdered milk.

我还常吃午餐肉——这种被低估的肉制品其实可以像意大利火腿那样作为调味食材。

And I ate Spam, which I I do think is an underrated meat product that you can use as a a flavoring agent like prosciutto.

哇。

Wow.

但我并非从小就是美食家。直到搬到纽约后，我才真正开始对食物产生兴趣。当时我在《纽约客》杂志工作，写了很多短篇书评。后来有一天，我得到了撰写餐厅评论的机会。可以说，之后的一切就水到渠成了。

But so I didn't grow up as a gourmet. And it was really only when I moved to New York that that I started to become more interested in food. And I was working at the New Yorker magazine and writing lots of short book reviews. And then one day, I I had a shot at writing the restaurant review. And I guess the rest is history from there.

我开始写餐厅评论，最终来到了《纽约时报》，然后就到了今天。

I started writing restaurant reviews and eventually came over to the Times, and and here we are.

特贾尔，你呢？你是怎么进入这个行业的？

Tejal, what about you? How did you arrive at this career?

我成长在一个对食物极度痴迷的家庭。我母亲出生在乌干达，是南亚裔。父亲出生在印度，而我出生在伦敦，童年时期经常搬家。我们曾在英格兰、科威特和喀土穆都生活过。

I grew up in a family really obsessed with food. So my mom was born in Uganda. She's South Asian. My dad was born in India, and I was born in London and grew up moving around a lot. So we lived in England and also Kuwait and Khartoum.

九岁左右我们搬到了法国。我常去邻居家和她一起做饭，还收集食谱卡片——就像其他孩子收集棒球卡那样。我收集过巧克力慕斯和法式梨挞的食谱卡片，研究这些配方并尝试制作。现在想来，或许是因为当时有些孤独，才让我对食物和烹饪产生了浓厚兴趣。

We moved to France when I was about nine years old. And I would go over to my neighbor's house and cook with her, and I would collect recipe cards, kind of like other kids might collect baseball cards or something. I would get these I would get recipe cards for chocolate mousse and for French pear tarts, and I would study the recipes, and I would make them sometimes. And Wow. I was really a little lonely maybe, and I'm really interested in food and cooking.

大学时我攻读文学专业，之后在餐厅厨房工作了几年。其实我一直想写餐厅评论，这个念头始终萦绕在心头，但总觉得这个梦想太过疯狂。后来我终于开始为《Time Out》《可食用的布鲁克林》《可食用的曼哈顿》撰写餐厅文章，《大西洋月刊》也曾开设过一段时间的美食博客。

And I studied literature in college, and then I I worked in restaurant kitchens for a few years. And I did know I wanted to write about restaurants. Like, I think I had it in the back of my mind, but it seemed like such a crazy dream to do it. But I was able to start writing about restaurants for Time Out, for Edible Brooklyn, Edible Manhattan. The Atlantic had a food blog for a while.

于是我成功发表了几篇关于美食和餐厅的文章，随后在2012年获得了《村声》杂志评论家的第一份工作。那个编辑部就像上了新闻学院或美食评论学校一样。

So I was able to get a few pieces about food and restaurants published, and then I got my first job as a critic at the Village Voice in 2012. And that newsroom was like going to journalism school or going to food critic school.

你知道吗？传奇之地啊。没错。你们俩接手这份工作时，餐厅评论员的角色定位正在发生变革。

You know? Legendary place. Yeah. Yeah. You're both coming to this job at a moment where the position of restaurant critic is changing.

这种变革体现在两个方面。首先，你们不再需要隐藏身份——这是重大转变。其次，你们的评论范围不再局限于纽约市。

There are two kind of aspects of that change. Right? First of all, you guys are not gonna be hiding your identities. That's a big piece of this. And the other part is that you're not just gonna be in New York City.

特贾尔，你常驻西海岸，将会负责评审全国各地的餐厅。我想逐一探讨这些变化，先从匿名性问题开始。谈谈这个吧，为什么现在要公开身份，不再伪装了？

Tejal, you're based in the West Coast, and you're gonna be kind of reviewing restaurants all over the country. So I wanna take those changes one by one. Let's start with the anonymity question. Tell me about that. Why be open about who you are, not disguise that right now?

我认为匿名评论家这个概念本就是种心照不宣的虚构。那些预期会被评审的餐厅，厨房里总是贴着纽约所有食评人的照片。尽管我们用化名订位，竭尽全力低调潜入，但评论家往往还是会被认出来。在这个除非是CIA特工否则难以匿名的时代，我们何不化被动为主动？通过展现真容，与读者建立更紧密的联系。

I think that the idea of the anonymous critic was always a bit of an agreed upon fiction. A certain restaurant that was expecting to be reviewed would always have photos of all the restaurant critics in New York in the kitchen. So even though the critic, you know, we we make reservations under fake names, and we do everything in our power to sort of slip in unnoticed. But often critics were recognized. And so it seemed that moving forward, especially at this time when it's so difficult to maintain anonymity without literally being a member of the CIA, why why don't we turn this around and turn it into a strength where by showing our faces, we can build relationships with our readers.

我觉得读者在阅读评论时，总想了解评论者的背景，这样才能判断是否认同其观点。能否信任他们？是否有时意见相左也无妨？因此我们希望通过露脸、拍摄视频、进行这样的对话，更多地展现自我，帮助读者理解我们的思维方式，让他们更深入洞察这个行业的运作。

I think that whenever you read a critic, you wanna know something about this person so that you can know if you agree with them or not. Can you trust them? Is it okay that sometimes you agree with them and sometimes you don't? So I think that's the hope here is that by showing our faces, by doing video, by having conversations like this, we can share a little bit more of ourselves and help and help readers understand our thinking and and just give them more insight into how this all works.

你们是否担心这样做可能会影响餐厅的体验？会不会觉得有些餐厅可能为你们打造特殊待遇，而我们普通顾客光临时就享受不到？

Do you guys have any worry that doing so is gonna potentially skew the experience that you get at a restaurant. Do you get the sense that, you know, you might have restaurants that create these very special experiences for you guys that the rest of us plebeians might not get if we go in?

我是说，我们去餐厅时仍在努力保持低调。所以我们不用真名预订，也不主动表明身份。

I mean, we're still making we're still making an effort when we go to restaurants to slip in anonymously. So we're not making reservations under our own names. We're not announcing ourselves.

明白

Got

确实。偶尔我们可能会被认出来，这种情况在我身上发生过几次，但并非持续发生，这很有意思。

it. Every now and then, we might get recognized. It has happened to me a couple of times, but it actually doesn't happen consistently, which is really interesting.

那么让我们谈谈这个地理问题。为什么要扩大工作覆盖范围？这个问题背后其实还隐含另一个问题：为什么这份工作要覆盖全国？这是否增加了工作难度？这样做有什么好处？

So let's talk about the geographical question here. Why expand the footprint of the job? And, you know, in that question, I think, is another one, which is why should this job cover the whole country? Does that make the job more difficult? What are the benefits of that?

Tejal，既然你从加州来，不如由你开始发言？

And, Tejal, why don't you start us off since you're coming to us from California. Right?

是的。我现在就在洛杉矶。我认为这确实增加了工作难度，但非常值得去做。要知道全国餐饮界正在发生太多事情，如果我们只关注一个城市，或把纽约视为全部，就会错过太多精彩。

Yeah. It I'm I'm in LA right now. I I mean, I think it it does make the job more difficult, but I think it's really worth doing. You know, there's so much happening in the restaurant scene all over the country. If we focus on one city or if we think of New York as the whole scene, we're just missing out on so much.

如果你想完整讲述美国餐饮业的故事，就必须放眼全国。

If you wanna kind of tell a complete story of of restaurants in The US, you have to look everywhere.

我认为Tejal完全正确，我们想写的是餐厅，以及它们如何反映当下这个时代、美国此刻的状态和我们自身的身份。要真正理解这一点，我们必须走遍各地，深入城市和小镇，努力了解正在发生的一切，这让这份工作充满激情。

I think Tejal's absolutely right that, you know, what we we wanna write about is restaurants and what are they saying about this moment in time, this moment in America, and and who we are. And to really understand that we have to go everywhere, and we have to go to cities and small towns and really try to understand what's going on, I think it makes the job very exciting.

好的，让我们进入最有趣的部分。

Okay. Let's get to the most fun stuff.

你们具体是怎么做到的？

Just how do you do it?

你们如何挑选餐厅？

How do you pick a restaurant?

他们一天中什么时段外出用餐进行这些评测？

What time of day do they go out to restaurants for these reviews?

我想知道你们如何规划全天行程，还能确保胃里有足够空间——比如连续三天不吃大蒜。整个准备流程是怎样的？如何选定要尝试的菜品？

I wanna know how you plan your whole day and have enough room in your stomach to make sure to, like, eat no garlic for three days. What is the preparation process? How do you pick the dishes you're going to try?

你们会点一大堆菜品来获得全面的体验，但不会全部吃完对吗？

Do you order, like, a bunch of dishes off the menu so you get a good cross section and just not eat it all?

当你用餐体验不佳时，服务员过来询问'餐点如何'，你会诚实回答，还是像我一样说'很棒，谢谢'？

When you have an experience that isn't great and the server comes back to ask you, how was your meal? Do you answer honestly, or do you just, like I do, say, it was great. Thanks.

如果你真的吃了某种食物，比如牛舌之类的，而餐厅正好供应这道菜呢？

What if you really ate a certain kind of food, like tongue or something, and that's what they're serving?

餐厅服务对你整体用餐印象的影响有多大？他们需要把整份餐点都吃完吗？

How much does the service you receive at a restaurant impact your overall impression of your meal? Do they have to, like, finish the whole thing?

如果他们没吃完，会打包

And if they don't finish it, do they take

带回家吗？

it home in a doggy bag?

给我详细说说这份工作是什么样的。餐厅评论员一周的典型生活是怎样的？

So break down for me what this job is like. What is a typical week like in the life of a restaurant critic?

主要是频繁外出就餐，进行各种调研和伏案工作。基本上每隔一周就要出差。在外地时，我每天都会尽可能多地安排用餐。而在洛杉矶时节奏会舒缓些，一周只外出就餐几次。

It's a lot of going out to eat and a lot of kind of researching and sitting at my desk. I'm traveling every other week, essentially. And when I'm in another place, my days are crammed with as many meals as possible. And then when I'm in Los Angeles, it's a little bit gentler and slower and, you know, I'm only going out a few times in the week.

一天之内你能塞进多少顿饭？我是说，标准的三餐是基本配置对吧？但你会超出这个数量吗？

How many meals can you cram into one day? Like, I mean, there's obviously the standard three. Right? But do you go beyond that?

我得说早餐不是我最爱的一餐，我更喜欢先饿一会儿然后直接从午餐开始。不过偶尔我也会吃个早晚餐再加个晚晚餐。

I will say breakfast is not my favorite meal, and I prefer to sort of work up an appetite and then start with lunch. But I will occasionally do an early dinner and a late dinner.

双响炮。

A bang bang.

那确实很拼。或者也可以先在酒吧喝一杯，尝一两道小菜看看值不值得再来。先感受下这个地方的氛围，判断是否值得回来吃顿正餐——虽然在我看来这不算真正的晚餐。我经常这么干，之后再去找地方吃真正的晚餐。

That's really intense. Or just maybe a drink at the bar and try one or two small things to see, do I want to come back here? And, you know, let me get a sense of the place and see if it's worth coming back for a full meal, which doesn't really count as a dinner, in my opinion, but, I do that quite a bit and then go to the real dinner afterwards.

抱歉我想问得具体些，早晚餐和晚晚餐之间要间隔多少小时，才能保证你有足够的食量来品评食物？

Can I ask sorry to get really specific here, but, like, how many hours do you have to put in between an early dinner and a late dinner in order to consume the amount you need to consume to be able to rate the food?

这个嘛，取决于具体情况。最好是能散步到第二家店时感到饥饿，或者中间留点时间间隔。但我觉得最重要的是去餐厅时要带着期待和食欲——如果你不是真的想吃东西，就没办法公正评价一家餐厅。要饿着肚子、满怀期待地去吃。对。

I mean, that'll depend on you know, it's nice to walk to the second place and feel hungry or to have a little bit of time in between. But I think it's really important to go to a place with some, like, excitement and appetite and, you know, you're not really giving a place a fair shot if you don't get there wanting to eat. Hungry. Excited to eat. Yeah.

没错。这点对我非常重要。我的食量是唯一限制我的因素。本来还能吃更多餐的

Yeah. That's really important to me. My appetite is the only thing limiting me. Would do more meals in

如果我能重来那一天。对。一样。好吧。莉佳雅，你平常一周怎么过？

the day if I could. Yeah. Same. Okay. Ligaya, your typical week?

因为我常驻纽约，要为外地读者撰写三篇纽约餐厅评测，所以不像特贾尔那样经常出差。但我外食频率很高，毕竟还要为六月份发布的纽约百大餐厅榜单提前考察。

So because I'm based in New York and I do about three New York reviews for everyone out of town, so I'm not traveling as much as Tejal. But I am eating out a lot because I also have to look ahead to the top 100 New York City restaurants list, which will come out in June.

厉害了。

Epic.

这意味着我既要重访去年上榜的所有餐厅，还要兼顾前几年曾上榜的餐厅，外加考察新店。所以既要跟进老店又要发掘新店。我试过连吃两顿晚餐——双晚餐真的很难搞定。确实。

And that means I have to go to all the restaurants that were on last year's list, but there's also restaurants that were on the list a couple years before, and then plus new restaurants. So there's both keeping up with that and scouting new restaurants. I have done the double. I really the double dinner is really hard. I think that Yeah.

因为

Because

这可不是我们想看到的情况。

that's not what of what happens. We wanna be doing.

部分原因是你每道菜只能浅尝几口。这特别困难，尤其是当你在餐厅没吃完某道菜，或者只尝了几口时，服务员会感到担忧。是的，我不想给任何人造成压力，所以总会说‘当然，这道菜非常美味’。

Part of it is that you can only really take a few bites of anything. It's very difficult, especially if you're at the restaurant and you don't finish a dish or you're only taking a few bites and and people at the restaurant become concerned. Yeah. And I I don't wanna cause any stress. And so I will always say, of course, this is delicious.

我只是要去别的地方。对，你能说什么呢？你得编个理由。我真的不想让别人觉得我不吃东西是因为不喜欢。

I I just I'm going somewhere else. Yeah. What can you say? You have to come up with a story. I really don't want people to think I'm not eating something because I don't like it.

没错。

Right.

当然。

Sure.

所以

So

但为了熬过夜晚，你只能小口小口地吃。而且我整天都在吃零食。我没办法等到晚上六点才吃晚餐。我不是那种会让自己挨饿的人，即使知道要参加三小时的品鉴菜单。所以我第二天就得跑个八英里什么的。

but to make it through the night, you have to just take little bites. And I snack throughout the day. I can't wait until, you know, 06:00 for dinner. I'm not the kind who would starve myself because I know I have a three hour tasting menu. So so I just have to then run, you know, eight miles the next day or something.

就像这样，我就是这样维持的。所以我觉得一周吃四顿饭应该算平均水平吧。

Like, that's how I how I keep this going. So I I think probably eating four meals a week is pretty average.

我想问问当你需要写差评时会怎么做。我们收到一两个关于这个的问题，人们想知道你是怎么考虑的？因为显然，你知道你对这个地方的评价可能会决定一家店的生死。他们投入了那么多心血。听起来挺难的。

I I wanna ask about what you do when you have to write a negative review. We got a question or two about this where people were asking, like, how do you think about that? Because, obviously, I'm sure you know that your take on this place, you know, it could make or break someone's business. They put all this time into it. You know, it sounds difficult.

另一方面，你知道，作为评论者的可信度显然取决于你能否如实表达对这些地方的感受。对此你怎么看？

On the other hand, you know, your credibility as a reviewer obviously rests on your ability to to say the truth about how you feel about these places. How do you think about that?

我认为写负面评价必须值得一写，必须具有某种新闻价值。我无法想象向读者推荐一个他们闻所未闻的小型独立商家——那种没有多少宣传噱头的地方，然后给这种地方写差评，这种‘欺凌弱小’的做法实在不合情理。但如果是一个知名机构，某种意义上的权威存在，具有新闻价值，却未能兑现其承诺，我觉得就有必要撰文批评。

I think with a negative review, it has to be worth writing. It has to be newsworthy in some way. I can't imagine directing readers to a place that they've never ever heard of, you know, that's a small independent business that is not generating a lot of hype or excitement, and writing a negative review of that place, you know, punching down in that way doesn't really make sense. But I think if a place is, you know, established, if it's an institution, if it's very powerful in some way, if it's very newsworthy in some way, and it's not just like it it's not delivering the thing that it promises to deliver. I think I need to write about it.

这感觉很重要，你明白吗？

That feels important. You know?

没错。反过来讲，你们是否曾因报道让某家餐厅名声大噪，导致门口排起长龙？如果有，请谈谈你们的感受。因为一方面这可能彻底改变一家企业及其业主的命运，另一方面餐厅的老顾客可能会指责你们毁了它。

Right. On the flip side, have either of you been responsible for putting a restaurant on the map and kind of leading to lines out the door? And and if so, talk to me about your feelings about that. Because on the one hand, I mean, that could be a life changing moment for for a business and for its owners. On the other, you're gonna have the fans of that restaurant who are gonna say you ruined it.

你们知道，某种程度上你们夺走了它的魔力。你们有过类似经历吗？如果有，你们如何看待这种情况？

You know, you you kind of took away the magic. Do either of you have an experience like that? And and if so, what do you make of it?

当年我在写《饥饿城市》专栏时，确实遇到过这种情况——比如我报道过一家小玉米饼店后，租金上涨导致他们不得不关门。

So when I was writing a Hungry City column, there were cases of places I wrote about where their rents went up after, you know, like a little taqueria, and the rent went up, and they had to close.

哇。

Wow.

因此我一直对此非常敏感。当然，在《饥饿城市》中，我写的是那些更脆弱、在城市中立足更不稳固的小地方。我想现在我们报道的许多场所，都是我们需要考虑这个问题的地方。

So I was always very conscious of that. And, of course, with Hungry City, I was writing about these smaller places, maybe more precarious with a more tenuous foothold in the city. I would imagine that a lot of the places we write about now, this is something we have to think about.

嗯。

Mhmm.

我们报道的场所能否承受这种聚光灯下的压力？会不会反而伤害到它们？我希望它们能生意兴隆。

Can the places we write about hold hold up under this spotlight? Will it would it hurt them? I want them to be busy.

嗯。

Mhmm.

我希望那些因为看到评论而来的人，是出于正确的理由——认为这将是一次美好的体验。但这种事真的很难预料。所以这确实是我们必须考虑的问题。Tejal你有过这种经历吗？是否曾因为报道或曝光某个地方而惹人生气？

I hope that the people who come because they read the review are coming for all the right reasons because they think it'll be a beautiful experience. I guess you just never know what happens when you do that. And so that is just something that we have to think about. Have you had this experience, Tejal? Have you like, do you feel like people have gotten mad because you've written about or exposed a place?

倒不一定是生气。但我确实觉得小店铺有时会跟不上节奏，它们很难适应被聚光灯笼罩的状态。然后食客们也会变得不满，对吧？

I don't know if people have gotten mad. I do think sometimes little places just can't keep up. They can't always keep up with it with being under a spotlight. And then diners get angry too. Right?

就像这种连锁反应：食客们会因为订不到位子或东西很快卖光而恼火。有时候我真想告诉人们：去吧，但请保持平常心。放轻松就好。

Like there's this whole relationship that happens where diners get annoyed because either they can't make reservations or things sell out quickly and they're not available. And I I don't know, sometimes I wanna I wanna tell people, you know, go here, but be cool. You know, it can just Be chill. Yeah.

我写这个的前提是你要保持冷静

I'm writing about this on the condition that you be chill

关于

about

它。

it.

是啊。然后我们明白我们对此也毫无掌控。完全如此。真不幸。

Yeah. And then we know we don't have control over that either Totally. Unfortunately.

好的。这是我给你的问题。而且我必须说，我在洛杉矶住过一年半，现在我要在节目上自爆了——我觉得洛杉矶的食物比纽约的好吃，不知道你是否同意。实在抱歉啊Ligaya。但我觉得Pedro你可能会认同。

Okay. This is my question for you. And and I have to say, I lived in LA for a year and a half, and I'm gonna cancel myself on air right now by saying that the food in LA is better than the food in New York, which I don't know if you agree with. I'm so sorry, Ligaya. But I think you might agree with, Pedro.

丑闻啊。

Scandal.

不过好吧。我已经听到有人说我错了。所有人都在说我错了。你写过一篇文章让我至今难忘，标题是'最好吃的贝果在加州（抱歉了纽约）'。

But okay. There was there was I'm already hearing that I'm wrong. Everybody's telling me I'm wrong. There was this one piece that you wrote, and I have not forgotten it. The headline was, the best bagels are in California, parentheses, sorry, New York.

你得给我解释清楚。你是在故意挑衅吗？因为我感觉你可能是。能说明一下吗？现在是你为自己辩护的时刻。

You gotta straighten this out for me. Were you just trolling? Because I feel like maybe you were. Can you explain? This is your moment to defend yourself.

虽然标题不是我写的，但我对报道中的每句话都负责。其实那篇文章与其说是贬低纽约贝果，不如说是为了赞美西海岸那些制作出色且风格迥异贝果的烘焙师们——有些是纽约风格，有些是蒙特利尔风格，还有些是他们自创的混合风格。说真的，我在这里尝到了很多美味的贝果。而且我认为这几年纽约的贝果水平也确实有所提升。你知道的，过去几年纽约也涌现出几家非常有意思的贝果店。

Well, I didn't write the headline, but I stand behind every sentence in that story. You know, that story wasn't really a takedown of New York bagels so much as it was a celebration of all these West Coast bakers making excellent and really different styles of bagels, some New York style, some Montreal style, some kind of their own hybridized style. Really, I was just having a lot of excellent bagels here. And I do think that actually in the years since the bagel scene has gotten a little better in New York too. You know, there's like some there's there's some really interesting bagel places in New York that have come up in the last few years.

纽约进步了。

New York upped its game.

我觉得...至少在贝果方面确实如此。不过...好吧，我也不知道。那篇文章有什么需要辩护的吗？我以为...

I think I mean, I think so generally, with when it comes to bagels. But but yeah. I just I don't know. Is there something is there something to defend in that piece? I thought I thought

不。只有这一点上我会为纽约辩护。我确实认为纽约的贝果更好吃，但我理解你的观点。那篇文章写得很美，确实让我想去洛杉矶吃贝果，所以我觉得你达到了目的。

No. That is the one place where I feel, like, defensive of New York. Like, I do think the bagels are better in New York, but but I hear you. It was it was beautiful. It did make me wanna go eat a bagel in LA, so I think you achieved the goal there.

人们当时可生气了。

People were so angry.

大家很生气对吧？

People were angry. Right?

我想场景确实被拍到了。生我的气。

Think it did get scene. Mad at me.

但你知道，那是不可避免的。我是说，标题撰稿人某种程度上已经替你做了。知道吗？这份工作有很多好处，但也有一个我们很多听众都想了解的具体挑战。

But that was, you know, inevitable. I mean, the headline writer kind of did that for you. You know? This job comes with a lot of benefits, but there's also this one specific challenge that a lot of our listeners wanted to hear about.

我的问题是，他们怎么做到既完成工作又不长胖的？

My question is, how do they do their job and not gain a lot of weight?

我想知道评论家们是如何保持身材的。

I wanted to know the critics stay in shape.

还有，他们的血液指标等等怎么样？因为他们总吃高热量食物。

And also, how is their, like, blood levels and everything? Because they eat rich food.

这些美食评论家里有谁在服用

Are any of these food critics on

GLP-1减肥药吗？如果没有，他们预计短期内会开始服用吗？

a GLP one weight loss drug? And if not, do they expect to be on it anytime soon?

如何在以饮食为核心的工作中保持健康？比如莉佳雅，你提到过跑八英里。请详细说说，我知道这对餐厅评论家来说一直是个大问题，对吧？

How do you balance your health and a job that is based around eating? Ligaya, you mentioned an eight mile run, for example. Just talk to me about that because I know this has been a really big issue for for restaurant critics. Right?

当然，这也是皮特·威尔斯离职的部分原因。而且

Well, of course, this is part of why Pete Wells stepped down. And

皮特·威尔斯，你的前任，一个传奇，一个标志性人物。

Pete Wells, your your predecessor, a legend, an icon.

是的，传奇人物。如此敬业。他几乎每晚都要吃两顿晚餐。我真的很钦佩他的这种投入程度。

Yes. Legend. So dedicated. I mean, for him, I think double dinners almost every night. I just really admire his level of commitment.

我觉得关键在于不要吃完晚餐的所有食物——虽然这对我来说很难做到。遇到美味时，我总想全部吃完。

I I feel like it's everything from trying to not finish everything at at dinner, which I find very difficult, actually. When things are good, I I would like to eat them.

确实。可以理解。

Yes. Understandable.

然后通过运动来平衡：我定期跑步，每天做俯卧撑。刚入职时能做36个，现在每天能做48个了。

And then balancing it it out with so I run regularly. I do push ups every day. I'm up to I think when I started the job, I was at 36. I'm now up to 48 a day.

太棒了，为你高兴。

Awesome. Good for you.

然后在休息日，就吃沙拉。这感觉太美妙了。我渐渐爱上了所有的沙拉，或者简单的蔬菜配米饭，这给我带来很多快乐，感觉也好多了。

And then on the on the days off, just eating salad. It's so beautiful. I I I've just come to love all my salads or just vegetables and rice, and it gives me so much joy, and I feel so much better.

你呢，Tejal？我并不认为吃东西本身是坏事或不健康。你知道吗？当然有些地方的食物确实很油腻或者...

What about you, Tejal? I I don't think eating is inherently kind of bad or unhealthy. You know? Of course, there are places where it's really rich and it's or it's, you

明白。

know Right.

或者是品尝菜单，但那不是我在每家餐厅的吃法。有很多餐厅的食物让人感觉很有营养，或者正是我当下需要的。是的，也有很多餐厅让我感觉很好。而且我也会根据需要锻炼。

Or a tasting menu, but that's not the way that I'm eating it at every restaurant I go to. There are a lot of restaurants where the food feels really nourishing or feels really exactly like what I need in that moment. Yeah, there are lot of restaurants that are just making me feel good too. And I also work out

好的。我们想在这里做个实验，就是快速问答环节。如果不想回答可以跳过。但请不要跳过太多问题，尽量用第一反应回答。

as needed. Okay. So we wanna do an experiment here, which is a lightning round section. You can pass if you don't wanna answer. Just don't pass too many times, please, and try to answer with the first thing that comes to you.

第一个问题来自读者投稿：在你看来，哪个是最被低估的美食城市？

The first question I wanna ask is one that we got from readers, which is what is the most underrated, in your opinion, food city?

檀香山，明尼阿波利斯。

Honolulu, Minneapolis.

哇。好的。我正在订机票。说说你讨厌的饮食潮流。

Wow. Okay. I'm booking my flights. Food trend that you hate.

什么都加牛油。好吧。

Beef tallow everything. Okay.

鱼子酱、松露还有海胆，什么食物都往上加。

Caviar and truffles and and uni on everything.

好的。那你支持的饮食潮流是什么？

Okay. Food trend you're in favor of?

甜点选玛德琳蛋糕。

Madeline's for dessert.

好吃。哦，这个选择真不错。

Yum. Oh, that's a really good one.

这个不错。现在我想掺和一下，当

That is a good one. Now I wanna meddle When

它们刚出炉还热乎的时候，就像刚烤好的，对。撒上糖粉。好吧。抱歉。

they and they're when they come out and they're still warm, they're, like, baked Yeah. To Dusted with powdered sugar. Okay. Sorry.

好的。我们还会给你玛德琳蛋糕。行。最好吃的披萨风格。

Alright. We're gonna give you Madeleine's as well. Okay. Best style of pizza.

酒吧风格。

Bar.

白披萨。我我我喜欢白披萨。

White pizzas. I I I like white pizzas.

好的。说说你最受争议的饮食观点。可以是公开说过的，或是你内心深处坚信但第一次要在此坦白的。

Okay. Your most controversial food take. It can be one that you've said publicly or one that you believe deeply in your heart that you're gonna be confessing right now for the first time.

午餐肉是绝佳的调味料。这就是我的争议饮食观点。

Spam is a great flavoring agent. That's my controversial food take.

卡佳，你有吗？

Kajal, do you have one?

我不知道哪些是有争议的。

I don't know which ones are controversial.

也许会是洛杉矶的贝果比纽约的更好吃。

Maybe it will be that the the LA bagels are better than the New York City bagels.

西海岸的贝果确实很棒。这似乎已经不那么有争议了。

That West Coast bagels are really excellent. That's just seems not that controversial anymore.

好吧，我们求同存异。公平。好，我们就用'抛弃它、娶它、与它共度良宵'来分类。

Okay. We're gonna agree to disagree. Fair. Okay. Let's call this leave it, marry it, and spend a wonderful night with it.

早餐、午餐和晚餐。

Breakfast, lunch, and dinner.

早餐就抛弃它。娶它。天啊，午餐和晚餐之间我其实不确定选哪个

Leave it to breakfast. Marry it. Gosh, I'm actually not sure between lunch and dinner which one I wanna

太难了。太难了。

It's tough. It's tough.

结婚。我正在享用一顿欢乐的午餐。

Marry. I'm in a I'm in a merry lunch.

好的。

Okay.

然后我打算享用一顿美妙的晚餐。

And I'm gonna just have one beautiful night with dinner.

好吧。莉佳娅？

Alright. Ligaya?

哦，我要和早餐结婚，告别午餐，与晚餐共舞。

Oh, I'm marrying breakfast, leaving lunch, and flinging with dinner.

太棒了。好的。很好。那么上次你退回的东西是什么？

Amazing. Okay. Good. Alright. Last time that you sent something back, and what was it?

你还记得吗？

Do you remember?

我几乎从不这样，我无法想象把东西退回去。

I almost never will I I can't imagine sending something back.

我觉得我从来没这么做过。哇，即使...即使食物难以下咽，

I don't think I've ever done that. Wow. Even if even when it's been inedible,

实际上。好吧，请你们两位都说说最近吃过最棒的一餐，哪家餐厅，并描述下吃了什么。

actually. Okay. For both of you, best recent meal, restaurant, and describe what you ate.

真不敢相信我要说品鉴菜单，因为我现在有点品鉴菜单疲劳了。但新奥尔良Emeril餐厅的品鉴菜单实在太出色了。每道菜都很美味，餐厅里充满欢乐的氛围，所有工作人员看起来都很享受。是的，那真是一顿极棒的晚餐。

I can't believe I'm saying it a tasting menu because I I kind of have tasting menu fatigue at the moment. But the tasting menu at Emeril's in New Orleans was so beautifully done. You know, every course was delicious, and there was just such a fun energy in the dining room, and everyone who was working there seemed to be having a good time. Yeah. That was just a really great meal.

有一道完美的小份秋葵汤，还有店里自制的绝妙烟熏血肠，配着用鹅肝调制的酱汁，简直奢华到夸张。听起来很荒谬对吧？但确实美味极了。甜点有刨冰，还有香蕉奶油派，上桌时他们会淋上温热的焦糖酱。

There was a perfect little gumbo. There was a really beautiful house made smoked boudin with like a sauce that had been mounted with foie gras, like so over the top. It sounds ridiculous. Was Sounds incredible. There was shaved ice for dessert and also a a banana cream pie that they drizzled with warm caramel sauce at the table.

好吧，这开始变得荒谬了。

Okay. This is getting ridiculous.

真是令人难忘的一餐。是Lagaia吗？

Really stand out meal. Lagaia?

那必须是泽西城的Karai Kitchen，他们承诺提供8道菜，多到让你数不清。每道菜都很精美，由一对母女经营，她们称之为家常菜。但这位厨师投入的劳动、对细节的关注以及天赋在每道菜中都显而易见。有些看似简单的菜品，比如只用姜黄和盐煎制的茄子片，原料不多却完美无缺。还有像羊肉香饭这样的菜品，需要耗时数小时。

So it has to be Karai Kitchen in Jersey City, where you're promised 8 courses, and you lose count of how many dishes are coming. And it's all beautiful, and it's run by a mother and daughter, and they talk about it as homestyle food. But the amount of labor and attention to detail and sheer giftedness of this chef is just apparent in everything. So something that seems so simple, like just these rounds of eggplant that are fried with turmeric and salt, like, there there are not even that many ingredients, and yet it's it's perfect. Or something like the goat biryani, which takes hours.

厨师说，每种食材都有自己的'时区'。所有食材都是分开烹饪后再组合，而且只烹饪到一定程度，因为组合后还会继续烹制。光是甜点就要再花七八个小时。这道甜点的做法她甚至不愿透露，因为那是秘密。我只知道是以乳制品为基础的。

The chef said, you know, each ingredient has its own time zone. So everything is being cooked separately and then being cooked together, and it's being only cooked to a certain amount because it's gonna cook more when it's all together. The dessert alone takes another seven to eight hours. And that one, she she wouldn't even tell me how she does it because that one's a secret. Basically, all I know is it's it's dairy based.

具体是什么乳制品不能透露？哇。连烹饪方法也是机密。

And what kind of dairy could not be revealed? Wow. Or even the method of cooking.

太喜欢了

Love that

这篇评论太棒了，Ligaya。谢谢你。我很喜欢你描述吃完芥末油后脸部感觉不同的那段。你能感受到

review so much, Ligaya. Thank you. I love your description of the the way you could feel your face differently after having the mustard oil. You could feel

没错。每道菜都用了芥末油和大量辣椒。就这样一道接一道，三个小时过去了甜点还没上，而你却享受每一分钟。

Yes. Yes. There's mustard oil in everything and so many chilies. And and it goes on and on, and it's it's three hours, and dessert hasn't come yet, and you love every moment of it.

最后一个问题，我们要问所有常客。没有时间限制。那家在你脑海中挥之不去的餐厅是什么？你时刻惦记的那家。它可能还在营业，也可能已经关门了。

For the final question, we're going to all timers. No time restriction. What is the restaurant that lives rent free in your head? The one you think about all the time. It can exist or not anymore.

但对你来说，那家经典餐厅，深藏在你心底的那一家。

But for you, the classic restaurant, the one that is in your heart.

我最近一直在想——我祖母几周前去世了，我总想起她带我去过的那家餐厅。那是内罗毕一个专门卖油炸土豆的地方，土豆切片裹上鹰嘴豆面糊油炸。店名叫Marubajiya，她是那里的常客，认识所有人。我渴望成为某家店的常客。

I've been thinking a lot about my grandmother died a couple of weeks ago, and I've been thinking about this restaurant that she thank you. I've I've been thinking about this place she used to take me in Nairobi that was essentially just a place you went for fried potatoes, sliced potatoes dipped in chickpea batter, and then fried. It was called Marubajiya, and she was a regular there. She knew everyone. I long to be a regular somewhere.

这种与餐厅的关系是我作为美食评论家难以体验的。我怀念那家店不仅因为情感纽带，更因为通过祖母，我理解了作为常客的意义——走进店里认识每位员工、每位食客，知道谁借了谁的钱，谁刚生了孩子，谁的孩子上了大学。不仅记得食物总是烫得拿不住，配着绿酸辣酱特别美味，更怀念那种成为餐厅一份子、融入真实社区的感觉。

It's some it's the kind of relationship with restaurants that I don't really get to have as a critic. So I think I'm thinking about that place, you know, because it has this I have this emotional connection to it, but also because I, from her, got a sense of what it was like to be a regular and walk in and know everyone who works there, everyone who's dining there, who borrowed money from who, who just had a baby, whose kid is going to college. It's not just the food, which I remember it would be it would always be, like, a little too hot to touch. It was so it was so delicious, and it would come with green chutney. But it was also that sense of being a part of the restaurant, you know, the sense of it being like a real community.

是啊，多美好。成为某家店的常客就像拥有第二个家。Ligaya你呢？

Yeah. It's so beautiful. I mean, the experience of being a regular somewhere is just it's like the best. It's like family. Ligaya?

我住在布鲁克林Fort Greene时，人生中唯一一次成为餐厅常客。现在住得远了再没去过，那家店叫Romans。我女儿出生大概六个月后Romans开业，我们总带着她五点钟第一个进店，六点前就离开。

When I lived in Fort Greene, Brooklyn, that was the one time in my life where I I have been a regular at a restaurant. And I I don't live anywhere near it now, so I never go, but it was Romans. My daughter had just been born, I think, maybe just six months before Romans opened. And so we would go with her. We would be the first people through the door at, you know, 05:00, and we'd be out of there by six.

每周去两三次。记得菜单每天更换，有时菜品很少——可能就三种意面、三道主菜和几个前菜。偶尔看着菜单会觉得没有特别想吃的。

And we went two or three times a week. I I just remember that, you know, the menu changed every day. And there'd be times when I'd go in and there weren't that many dishes, maybe three pastas, three mains, and just a, you know, a few starters. And sometimes I'm I'd look at the menu, and I think, oh, I don't know. Maybe nothing is exactly what I want to eat.

结果发现，我点的每道菜都正中下怀，只是我自己都没意识到。所以这些年来，我一直在餐厅里追寻那种感觉。

And it turned out that whatever I ordered was exactly what I wanted. I just didn't know it. So I think I've been chasing that feeling at a restaurant again all these years.

餐厅真是充满魔力，你们两位也是。非常感谢你们来参加节目。

Restaurants are so magic, and so are you two. Thank you both so much for coming on the show.

谢谢邀请，这次真是太有趣了。

Thanks for having us. This was so fun.

完美收官。本期节目由安娜·弗利和罗伯·齐普科制作，布伦丹·克林肯伯格剪辑，配乐来自马里昂·洛萨诺，工程由克里斯·伍德负责。特别感谢所有打进电话留言的听众，虽然无法全部采用，但每条留言都让我们听得津津有味。

Nailed it. Today's episode was produced by Anna Foley and Rob Zipko. It was edited by Brendan Klinkenberg, contains music by Marion Lozano, and was engineered by Chris Wood. Special thanks to everyone who called in and left a voicemail. We couldn't include them all, but they were so much fun to listen to.

以上就是本期《每日播报》的全部内容，我是娜塔莉·基乔夫，周一再见。

That's it for The Daily. I'm Natalie Kitchoef. See you on Monday.