周日特辑：本世纪（迄今为止）百佳图书

我是戴安娜·邓恩。我希望能够与我的孙女们共享我的《纽约时报》账户。我们住在一个非常偏远的地区。我想分享我的账户，只是为了增加她们对整个世界的了解。非常感谢。

My name is Diana Dunn. I would like to be able to share my New York Times account with my granddaughters. We live in a very rural area. I would like to share my account just to increase their knowledge of our whole world. Thank you so much.

戴安娜，我们听到了您的需求。现在向您介绍《纽约时报》家庭订阅计划。一份订阅最多可供您生活中的四个人使用独立账号登录。了解更多详情，请访问nytimes.com/family。

Diana, we heard you. Introducing the New York Times family subscription. One subscription up to four separate logins for anyone in your life. Find out more at nytimes.com/family.

大家好，我是萨布丽娜。今天我们暂停常规的周末安排，为大家带来特别内容。现在是夏天，正是享受阅读时光的好时节。

Hi, everyone. It's Sabrina. We're taking a break from our usual weekend routine to bring you something special today. It's summer. It's bee treating time.

也许你需要一本书来暂时远离新闻。无论如何，我们《纽约时报》书评部的优秀同事们最近整理了一份21世纪至今的100本最佳书籍清单。需要说明的是，这不是畅销书榜单或单纯文学奖获奖作品集——虽然其中确实包含这类书籍。为制定这份清单，他们调查了500多位小说家、诗人、评论家、编辑和读者。

Maybe you need a book to take a break from the news. Anyway, our wonderful colleagues at the New York Times Book Review recently compiled a list of the 100 best books of the twenty first century so far. To be clear, this is not a list of bestsellers or just literary award winners. I mean, there's some of those. But to make their list, they surveyed more than 500 novelists, poets, critics, editors, and readers.

这是个非常酷的项目，清单内容也极其有趣，已经引起了巨大反响。因此今天，我们将推送他们播客的相关节目——一期专门讨论这份书单及其内容的节目。您还应该知道，除了这期特别节目外，《纽约时报》书评播客会定期更新。

It's a very cool project, and it's a super interesting list. It's gotten a huge response. And so today, we're sending you the episode of their podcast. It's an episode about this list and what's on it. You should also know that beyond this episode, The New York Times Book Reviews podcast comes out regularly.

他们经常进行引人入胜的对话，包括与这份最新书单上一些杰出作家的对谈。所以请在任何您收听我们节目的平台订阅他们的节目。好的，现在请听他们的内容。

They have fascinating conversations all the time, including with some of the phenomenal writers on this recent list. So sign up for their show wherever you listen to us. Okay. Here they are.

我是《纽约时报》书评编辑吉尔伯特·克鲁兹，这里是书评播客节目。在本期节目中，我非常激动能终于讨论这个我们从2024年初就开始筹备、如今终于面世的项目——21世纪至今的100本最佳书籍。如果您正在收听这档节目，如果您正在收听一档关于书籍的播客，我想您可能已经看过部分或全部书单内容。本周与我共同参与节目的还有三位自一月份起就与我深入探讨这个项目的编辑。蒂娜·乔丹，你好。

I'm Gilbert Cruz, editor of the New York Times Book Review, and this is the book review podcast. On this week's episode, I'm very excited to finally talk about a project that we've been working on for much of 2024 and which is finally out there in the world, a 100 best books of the twenty first century so far. If you're listening to this show, if you're listening to a podcast about books, I have to think you've already seen part or all of it. Joining me this week are three editors who have been deep in the weeds with me on this since January. Tina Jordan, hello.

嗨。

Hi.

朱，莫妮卡·蒂布，欢迎回来。

Joo, Monica Tib, welcome back.

嗨，吉尔伯特。

Hi, Gilbert.

还有斯科特·海勒，这是你第一次参加节目。

And Scott Heller, this is your first time on the show.

是的。我现在是一名听众。很兴奋能来到这里。谢谢。

It is. I'm a listener now. I'm excited to be here. Thanks.

我很高兴邀请到大家。所以我希望我们能就这个项目、书单上的一些书籍、以及未入选的书籍展开自由讨论。这里有很多值得深入探讨的内容。我想先请其他人来回答——蒂娜，我们为什么要做这个？

I'm excited to have all of you on. So I'm hoping we can have a free flowing discussion about this effort, about some of the books on the list, books that didn't make the list. There's a lot to dig into here. And I wanna start by asking someone else who's not me, Tina, why did we do this?

为什么做这个？因为我们环顾四周，发现即将迎来四分之一世纪的节点。我们这些书呆子喜欢分类和列清单，于是就想：二十一世纪迄今为止最好的书有哪些？然后我们开始争论，讨论自2000年1月1日以来读过的挚爱之作。后来我们觉得，嘿，或许这能成个专题，但应该让更多人参与进来。

Why did we do this? Because we looked around and we it was almost the quarter century mark. We're book nerds who like to categorize and make lists, and we thought, what are the best books of the twenty first century so far? And we started to argue about it. We started to talk ourselves about the things we'd read since 01/01/2000 that we loved, and then we thought, hey, maybe there's something here, but let's put this out to a lot of people.

因为通常情况下，我们本可以在内部完成这项工作。我们会召集编辑们，邀请我们出色的评论家们参与，事情就到此为止。但这次似乎是个机会，可以做得更宏大些。毕竟我们总是邀请这些作家为我们撰稿、评论书籍、在我们的版面发表文章。

Because normally, we would have just done this in house. We would have pulled the editors. We've pulled the critics, our wonderful critics, and that would have been it. But this seemed like an opportunity to do something bigger. Given that we ask all these writers all the time to write for us, to review books, to appear in our pages.

我们认为实际上可以利用他们的声音来做些更有影响力的事，而这件事确实影响巨大。斯科特，作为书评版相对较新的成员——和我一样新，你才来大约两年——这个项目中最让你惊讶的是什么？

We figured we could actually use their voices towards something massive, and this thing is massive. Scott, as someone who's still relatively new to the desk, as new as I am, you've only been here about two years, What was the most surprising thing to you about this effort, this project?

最令人惊讶的其实是竟有这么多人愿意分享他们的投票清单。我们竭尽全力让人们知道这是匿名的，不用担心我们会透露你选了谁或漏了谁。然而这么多人还是愿意公开他们的选择，我认为这恰恰是其中最棒的一点。汇总的榜单很精彩，也有很多值得讨论的地方。但当你深入查看斯蒂芬·金的清单时——事实上他把自己列了进去，大家对此都觉得很有趣——还有许多其他人也公开了他们的选择。

What ended up being most surprising actually was how many people were willing to share their ballots. We bent over backwards to let people know this was anonymous, and don't worry, we're not gonna reveal who you pick, who you left off. And yet so many people were willing to come forward with what they selected, and I think that's one of the best things about it, in fact. The aggregated list is wonderful and there's plenty to argue about. But when you go get in and dig into what Stephen King put on his list, in fact, he put himself on his list, which I think people have gotten a kick out of, but many others came forward.

我觉得这本身就构成了非常有趣的阅读材料。而且你还能看到许多古怪的选择，可能没多少人投票，但个人却对此充满热情。我真的很喜欢这部分。

And I think that makes for sort of wonderful reading in and of itself. And also you get to see a lot of quirky choices that maybe many people didn't vote for, but that individuals are passionate about. And I really enjoyed that.

斯科特，你说得对。对某些读者来说，看部分投票清单可能比看榜单本身更有趣。必须承认，在最早讨论这个项目时，《视与听》榜单对我个人是个重要灵感来源。不了解的听众可能不知道，《视与听》是英国电影杂志。自1952或1962年起，他们每十年会征集影评人的投票，后来扩展到影评人和导演共同参与，请他们列出有史以来最伟大的电影。

Scott, I think you're right. I think seeing some of the ballots possibly is is more entertaining to some of our readers than seeing the list itself. I have to say in our earliest discussions about this project, one of the things that was an inspiration certainly for me was the Sight and Sound list. For those of you who don't know, Sight and Sound is a British film journal. And ever since 1952 or 1962, every ten years, they've taken a poll of critics, and then it turned into a poll of critics and film directors, and they asked them to put their top films of all time.

每十年这个榜单发布都是大事，特别是近二十年来，因为他们不仅公布榜单，还会展示最著名影评人和导演的投票清单。你可以看到吉尔莫·德尔·托罗、巴里·詹金斯的清单——不知道史蒂文·斯皮尔伯格是否参与了——但你能想象所有上榜人的清单，真切感受他们的品味。另一个有趣之处在于这个榜单会随时间变化。《公民凯恩》曾蝉联榜首数十年，后来《迷魂记》登顶，现在榜首是部法国电影——让·迪厄曼（或其他我发音不准的法语词）。

And every ten years, it's a big deal when this list runs, particularly over the past couple decades because not only do they run the list, but they run the ballots of the most famous critics and the most famous directors. You can see what Guillermo del Toro and Barry Jenkins and I don't know if Steven Spielberg participated. But you can imagine all the people whose lists are on there and just get a real sense of their taste. And then the other thing that's interesting about this list is that it changes over time. So Citizen Kane was the top movie for many decades, and then Vertigo was the top movie, and now there's a French movie, Jean Diehlmann, other French words I cannot pronounce, that is the top movie.

我不是说我们要每十年做一次，但这确实激励我们去捕捉某个时代的截面。无论你对这个榜单有何评价，它都是当下这个时刻的缩影。上面有些书如果今年底再做调查可能就不会入选，如果早些时候做调查也不会出现。

I'm not saying we're gonna do this every ten years, but it certainly is an inspiration to to try to capture a moment in time. And whatever else you wanna say about this list, it is a snapshot of this moment in time. There are probably books on here. If you took this poll at the end of this year, would not be on here. You had taken it earlier, they would not be on here.

根据我们2024年的民意调查，这是人们评选出的100本最佳书籍。让我们来聊聊其中一些书吧。我想从第一名开始，我自己也不了解这本书。大家感到意外吗？在座的各位是否有人对埃莱娜·费兰特的《我的天才女友》被评为21世纪最佳书籍感到惊讶？这是根据我们503位受访者的投票结果。

This is what people in the 2024 that we polled thought were the 100 best books. So let's talk about some of these books. I'd love to start with our number one book, which I don't know. Was were people surprised? Was anyone in this room at least surprised that My Brilliant Friend by Elena Ferrante was, according to our 503 respondents, the number one book of the twenty first century.

我很意外。

I was surprised.

好吧。

Okay.

但或许我不该这么惊讶，因为提醒听众们，我们让受访者自行选择他们认为本世纪至今最好的10本书，但并未对'最佳'下定义。显然大家对此有不同理解——有人选的是自己热爱并推荐给他人的书，有人选的是认为能流传后世的作品。但在我看来，许多参与投票的人只是在为那些震撼过他们的书投票。

But maybe I shouldn't have been because as a reminder to our listeners, we asked our respondents to choose what they thought were the 10 best books of the century so far, but we didn't define best for them. And people clearly defined it in different ways. They defined it as the book they loved that they pass along to people. They defined it as the books they thought would still be around generations from now. But it really seems to me that a lot of the people who took our poll were just, like, voting for the books that had struck them.

对吧？那些让他们念念不忘的书。

Right? The books they could not get out of their heads.

完全同意。我想我们都会提到哪些书属于自己'难以忘怀'的范畴。不过再谈谈费兰特吧——幸运的是，现场有位专家。实际上桌边有好几位费兰特专家，但演播室里这位撰写了一篇精彩文章，配合本次企划发布，探讨了关于埃莱娜·费兰特真实身份的所有理论。

Absolutely. And I think we're all gonna touch on what books fell into our own personal categories of books we couldn't get out of our head. But talk a little bit more about Ferrante. Thankfully, luckily, we have expert on here. Apparently, there are several Ferrante experts on the desk, but we have one who is in studio who wrote a wonderful article that that published in conjunction with this project, looking at all the theories about who Elena Ferrante is.

埃莱娜·费兰特是使用笔名的作家，其真实身份成谜，虽有各种猜测。但首先，希玛娜，我想请你谈谈这本书，或许还有整个'那不勒斯四部曲'（其中两部进入了榜单）。

Elena Ferrante is an author who uses an alias. We don't really know who the author is. There are theories and suspicions. But first, Shimana, I'd I'd love for you to talk about just the book and maybe the Neapolitan court as a whole. Two of them appeared on this list.

当然，作为一个连作者身份都不明确的专家，这本身颇具讽刺意味，但我将自豪地接受这一身份。蒂娜，我其实同意你的观点，看到《我的天才女友》位列榜首确实令我惊讶。我认为它很好地代表了几重意义：显然，这整个四部曲深深触动了读者，同时我认为我们都还未完全从'费兰特热'中走出来。还记得那些年人人都在读这些书的盛况吗？

There is, of course, some irony of being a being an expert on somebody that we don't even know who it is, but I will lean into that with pride. So, Tina, I I actually agree with you that I was surprised to see my brilliant friend first. I do think it's a nice representation of a couple things. Obviously, this whole quartet touched people really deeply, but also I think we're all still coming out of Ferrante fever. Do you remember those years where it was everybody was reading these books?

比如，当她的新书出版或HBO改编剧集上映时，那简直是文化事件。所以我喜欢这个榜首选择，它展现了衡量'最佳'的多种维度。若你尚未感染'费兰特热'，《我的天才女友》是如今被称为'那不勒斯四部曲'系列的首部作品，讲述了两个在那不勒斯贫民区长大的女孩跨越一生的友谊。

Like, it was an actual event when she had a new book coming out when the HBO adaptations were on. So I liked that this top pick represents a couple different ways of looking at what best really means. In case you are one of the people who has not been infected with Ferrante fever, My Brilliant Friend is the first in a series of four books that is now known as the Neapolitan Quartet. It follows a lifelong friendship between two girls who are growing up in Naples. They're poor.

她们都天资聪颖，拥有超乎寻常的智慧，也异常紧密地相互依存。从少女时期起，她们就像彼此的镜像。这段关系充满张力，既有嫉妒，

They're both fiercely intelligent. They're both preternaturally smart and preternaturally attached to each other. From the time that they're young girls, they are doubles of one another. And it's a very charged relationship. There's jealousy.

也有竞争，但同时也建立在某种唯有在那个年纪、与那样的朋友才能培育出的特殊情感之上。我几乎是在英文版首发时就阅读了这本书，并追完了整个系列。包括我在内的许多读者都认为，这是首次看到女性友谊的复杂性被如此深刻地探讨。

There's rivalry. But it's also built on a type of love that you only, I think, can really foster when you're at that age and you attach on a friend like that. I think I read this pretty much the first when it came out in English. So I followed the course of all these novels as they were arriving. And something that a lot of people were responding to, myself included, was that it was one of the first times we had seen the complexities of a female friendship so substantively discussed.

书中充满了令人共鸣的洞察，阅读体验非常愉悦。这个系列值得坚持读完——虽然我最喜欢的不是第一部（具体哪本恕不透露），但这正是继续阅读的动力。

There was so much recognition in it and it was a pleasure. And I think too so the series, if you stick with it, and I think you should because personally my favorite is not the first one, and I'm not gonna tell you what my favorite is. But that's an incentive to continue with the series.

我们迟早会让你说出来的。

We're gonna get this out of you.

或许吧。我可是个密不透风的保险箱。总之，你会见证两位女性的成长历程，她们的一生如何与意大利历史、那不勒斯变迁、性别歧视、共产主义和劳工运动交织，作者以极其细腻的笔触呈现这些。作为最后的彩蛋——既然我是演播室里的费兰特专家（出了这里可不敢当）——几年前我曾想写篇关于其英文译者安妮·戈尔茨坦的文章，正是她帮助费兰特获得了国际声誉。

Maybe. I'm a locked box, man. Anyway, so you see the women grow up. You see them throughout their entire lives, and you see how their lives intersect with the history of Italy, with Naples, with all sexism and communism and labor movements, and she does it very delicately. And I guess as the last Easter egg since I am the in studio Ferrante expert, I would not say I am an expert outside of this studio, is that a couple years ago, I wanted to write a piece about Ferrante's English translator, Anne Goldstein, who really helped elevate Ferrante's profile outside of Italy.

我采访了许多认识费兰特的人，因为在那不勒斯四部曲之前，她在意大利就备受喜爱。我与多位译者、意大利文学专家以及那些曾参与费兰特作品英译竞标但最终输给安妮的人交谈过。他们说，尽管我深爱意大利语的费兰特作品，但认为安妮的英译本使其更上一层楼。

And I talked to a bunch of people who had who knew Ferrante because, of course, she was really well loved in Italy before the Neapolitan quartet. So I talked with a lot of other translators, people who know a lot about Italian literature, people who had actually auditioned to to translate Ferrante into English and and lost out to Anne. And they said, as much as I love Ferrante in Italian, I think Anne makes them even better in English.

斯科特，你读过弗兰蒂的书吗？

Scott, have you read any of the Fronti books?

我...我读过第一本，现在得承认我没继续往下读。

I've I've read the first one, and now I'm gonna have to admit that I haven't continued with it.

看来我们同病相怜。

So We're in the same boat.

你也是啊。没错。我得说我完全被迷住了，我超爱她们俩。

You're in same boat. Yeah. Yeah. I have to say I I was completely charmed. I love the two of them.

我钟爱她们之间那种炽烈的友谊。不过通常我不读系列小说，这或许是我没继续的原因，算是我的小毛病吧。

I love the fierceness of their friendship, and I don't read series typically. So that may be why I didn't continue, but that's that's my foible.

你刚提到的让我很触动——这些书曾是一种文化现象，'费兰特热'风靡一时。我当时也完全沉浸其中。但2000年后许多被视为文化现象的书并未入选这份榜单。是什么让它脱颖而出？为何唯独这部作品引爆热潮？

I'm struck by something you said, which is these books were a cultural moment and Ferrante Fever was a thing. And it was, and I was completely consumed by it. But a lot of other books that we saw as cultural moments since 2000 aren't on this list. So what sets it apart? What made this one pop?

比如，有很多好书人们总是随身携带。嗯哼。无论是《奔腾年代》还是《消失的爱人》，关于《消失的爱人》我要跟你争论一下。它确实是本好书，但却不在这个榜单上。

Like, there's a lot of good books that people were seen carrying everywhere. Mhmm. Whether it's Sea Biscuit or Gone Girl, and I will fight you about Gone Girl. It is a really good book, that are not on this list.

澄清一下，我很喜欢《消失的爱人》。虽然没喜欢到要为它投票的程度，但我确实喜欢。这是个很好的问题，我有一些假设，但没有确切答案。我想说的是，人们通过系列作品逐渐建立情感——我理解像你这样的人，斯科特，人生苦短...

I love Gone Girl, to be clear. I don't love I don't love it enough to maybe vote for it, but I love it. So that's a great question, and I have some hypotheses. I don't have a definitive answer. One thing I will say is that I think people over the course of a series and I understand that there are people like you, Scott, who just don't you know, life is short.

为什么要坚持读完四本书？值得说明的是，费兰特本人将这四本书视为一部连载的长篇小说，就像狄更斯的作品那样。如果你已经为这两个角色投入了上千页的阅读，他们给你的印象可能会比标题就告诉你'已消失'的女人更深刻。与缺席的角色建立情感联系确实更难。

Why are you gonna stick with four books? For what it's worth, Ferrante herself considers all four of these books one long novel that are basically serialized like Dickens. I don't know. If you've if you've invested a thousand pages with these two people, they're gonna stick with you maybe more than a woman who the title will tell you is gone. It's harder it's harder to be closer with that kind of person if she's absent.

这就是我的理论。

That's my theory.

电视剧创作者也这样吗？不。这实际上是部十一小时的电影？他们这么说的时候真的一点都不让人恼火。

Is that how like TV creators like, no. This is actually an eleven hour movie? Which is not at all annoying when they say that.

我是说，还有谁不想以某种方式去意大利看看呢？对吧？确实。

I mean, also everybody. Who doesn't wanna visit Italy in one way or another? Right? True.

虽然战后海军

Although postwar naval

系统确实如此。这是事实。

systems is true. That is true.

我不想去肉制品加工厂。

I don't wanna go in the meat factory.

这是事实。

That is true.

我真的不想去

I really don't wanna

那么蒂娜，既然你提到了，有什么让你感到惊讶的文化时刻没出现在这份名单上？

So what were you surprised at, Tina, that was not on this list since you brought it up? What cultural moments?

没有《消失的爱人》，没有柯蒂斯·西滕费尔德的《预科生》，也没有劳拉·希伦布兰德的《海洋饼干》。虽然我没指望看到关凯文上榜，但那本书确实轰动一时。我只是觉得，那些我们曾看到人们随身携带的书——尽管现在没人这么做了——最终入选的寥寥无几。

No Gone Girl, no Prep by Curtis Sittenfeld, no Sea Biscuit by Laura Hillenbrand. I didn't really expect to see Kevin Kwan on there, but that book was huge. I just I feel like the books that were when we were seeing people carry around books, not that we do anymore, like, so few of those ended up on the list.

那我换个问法。不是要质疑我们榜单的立意，但我们讨论过每个人对'最佳'定义不同。人们是否过分强调了文学性？是否倾向于选择他们认为高雅的作品，而非像《消失的爱人》这样的书——我可是把它列入了我的名单。在座各位都参与了投票。

Let me ask this question then. Not to mess with the conceit of our own list, but we talked about how everyone defined best in a different way. Is this did people overemphasize the the the over literary? The ones that they think are fancy are the ones they should pick as opposed to Gone Girl, which I put on my list. All of us in this room took the poll.

我们不会与你分享我们的评选结果，也不会透露投票详情，但我在我的书单上选了《消失的爱人》。我认为《消失的爱人》是一部极其出色的小说，文笔精湛，当时深受大众喜爱，我相信它将继续被读者传阅。

We're not gonna share our results with you. We're not gonna share our ballots, but I put Gone Girl on my list. I think Gone Girl is a great book that is extremely well written, that most people loved at the time, and I think will continue to be read.

我同意你的观点。我觉得人们确实倾向于选择那些公认的杰作。

I agree with you. I do think people erred towards what they considered to be great.

嗯。

Mhmm.

我觉得这份书单上轻松有趣的读物比我想象中要少。

I think there's less fun reading on this list than I thought there would be.

那么这份书单上哪本是轻松有趣的书呢？谁想来挑一本？

But what is a fun book on this list? Who wants to pick a fun book on this list?

乔治·桑德斯的《田园牧歌》。

Pastoralia by George Saunders.

好吧。

Okay.

这个数据以85的酷炫数字传来，但是

This is coming in at a cool 85, but

我很高兴。我们想在这里收集故事集。《田园牧歌》简直笑死人了。如果你只读其中一篇，就读《海橡树》，那是我有史以来最喜欢的短篇小说之一。

I was delighted. We wanna have story collections on here. Pastoralia is hysterical. If you only read one thing in it, read Sea Oak, which is one of my favorite short stories of all time.

所以乔治·桑德斯有三本书上榜。只有三位作者有三本书入选。乔治·桑德斯的两本故事集和他的小说《林肯在中阴》。费兰特有两部那不勒斯四部曲作品，还有《被遗弃的日子》。而贾斯敏·沃德则有一本回忆录和两本小说上榜。

So George Saunders had three books on here. There there are only three authors that had three books on here. George Saunders with two story collections and his novel Lincoln and the Bardo. Ferrante had two of her Neapolitan quartets, and then The Days of Abandonment. And Jasmine Ward had her memoir and two novels.

再给乔治·桑德斯加个话题。他为什么优秀？我并不是说他不好。

Just to hang one more beat on George Saunders. Why is he good? I'm not saying he's not.

我们要做关于乔治·桑德斯的十一小时系列节目吗？因为我可以跟进。

Are we doing eleven hour series on George Saunders? Because I can follow.

当然。有几票支持。

Sure. A few votes.

好的。在《田园牧歌》中，你能看到他那种真正古怪、疯狂、让人捧腹大笑的幽默。他是个情感丰富的作家，不回避那些看似困难的主题，敢于处理一些重大题材。

Okay. In Pastorale, you see his really bizarre, bonkers, laugh out loud funny. He's a very emotional writer. He doesn't stray away from things that seem difficult. He takes on some big stuff.

我是说，《林肯在中阴》是我长久以来读过关于悲伤最好的书之一，这档播客的老听众都知道我钟爱悲伤题材的书籍——虽然不包括琼·狄迪恩那本（这个我们稍后再谈）。我认为作者能将那些通常令人感到压抑、窒息的人类体验，转化为看似简单却极具欺骗性的可消化形式。所以我很高兴他能入选。

I mean, Lincoln in the Bardo is one of the better books about grief that I've read in a long time, and longtime listeners of this podcast know I love grief books. Although not the Joan Didion that's on here, but we can get to that later. And I think he's able to render these what can often feel like oppressive, overwhelming human experiences into things that are very manageable, like deceptively simple. So I'm delighted he's on here.

斯科特？我认为需要明确的是，我们采访了许多在大学任教的作家，可能绝大多数小说家都拥有艺术硕士学历，而乔治·桑德斯在那个领域是极具影响力的人物。我敢说他的许多学生——虽然我不认为这影响了问卷结果——本身就是这代作家中最杰出的代表，也确实出现在了榜单上。从某种程度来说，他处于审美定义的核心位置。记得当时我们讨论投票人名单时，蒂娜和我都认为应该突破纯文学专家的范畴。

Scott? I think one thing we should remember is that we went to and got answers from a lot of writers who teach in universities, and probably many, many, many fiction writers are graduates of MFA programs, and George Saunders is an incredibly influential figure in that world. And I bet a lot of I don't think this shaped the answers, but plenty of his students are among the most important writers of this generation and are on this list, in fact. So I think he's at the center of taste making in some ways. And I think, you know, I know what Tina and I and all of us had discussed as we were trying to put together a wish list of who would actually vote is going beyond only sort of experts in literary fiction.

但最终参与调查的确实以纯文学作家居多，所以这份榜单反映的更多是他们的审美取向。

And that, I think, is I think, ultimately, I think it's literary fiction writers who ended up answering the survey probably more than any others, and that's why the list reflected their taste, I would say.

我不太认同这个观点。

I don't know about that.

你不这么认为？

You don't think so?

好吧，明确地说，我们邀请的纯文学作家确实比类型小说作家多。没错，确实如此。嗯...不过类型小说作家也有不少。

Okay. Well, to be clear, I think we asked more literary fiction writers than genre writers Yes. For sure. Mhmm. There are quite a few genre writers.

但他们最终选择的还是吉尔伯特所说的'高端路线'。确实。

And they still went fancy to use Gilbert's term. Yeah.

正如斯科特提到的，你可以在我们的选票页面上看到一系列作家的投票名单。上面有丽贝卡·罗安霍斯、莎拉·麦克莱恩等作家。这些作家大多深耕某一类型文学，他们的选择可能非常刻意地集中在类型小说上，或许因为他们预感到这类书籍在榜单上会代表性不足——事实也确实如此。我们这里只有一本突出的科幻奇幻作品，那就是N.

You can see on our on the ballot that Scott referred to, the page where you can see a bunch of writers' ballots. You have Rebecca Roanhorse. You have Sarah McLean. Some of these writers who really, you know, write within a genre and focus their their picks probably very deliberately on genre books because they had a sense perhaps that those types of books would be underrepresented on the list, and they were. We have one sci fi fantasy, one prominent sci fi fantasy book on here, which is the fifth season by N.

K.杰米辛的《第五季》，当然如果能见到更多同类作品就更好了。

K. Jemisin, but certainly would have been great to to have seen more.

我同意。这正是查看他们投票名单如此精彩的原因。

I agree. And that's what makes looking at their ballots so fabulous.

我们稍后回来。

We'll be right back.

大家好，我是朱丽叶。

Hi. I'm Juliette.

我是乔埃尔，我们来自《纽约时报》游戏团队。

I'm Joelle. We're from the New York Times games team.

我们来这里和粉丝们聊聊我们的游戏。

And we're here talking to fans about our games.

你在玩我们的游戏时是什么感觉？

What's your vibe when you're playing one of our games?

这让我感觉像是在以一种非常高效的方式拖延时间。

It makes me feel like I'm procrastinating in a really productive way.

它刚好挠到了我大脑的痒处。

It just scratches an itch in my brain.

我们有个固定流程？

We have a routine?

我和男友异地恋。我们每晚都会视频通话并共享屏幕。先玩Connections，然后是Mini，最后是Strands。永远按这个顺序来。

I'm doing long distance with my boyfriend. We'll call every night and share our screen. We do connections, the mini, and then strands. Always in that order.

哇。你们有最喜欢的环节吗？

Aw. Do you have a favorite?

Mini游戏。我们总试图在30秒内完成。虽然很少成功，但30秒始终是我们的目标。

The mini. We try and get it under thirty seconds. We rarely get it under thirty, but that's always the goal.

人们确实会给自己计时，但对于拼字游戏，我给自己一整天的时间。

Folks will really time themselves, but with spelling bee, I give myself all day.

获得'蜂后'称号真的很有趣。

It is really fun getting queen bee.

是啊。

Yeah.

没错。我通常在孩子睡觉时玩这个。

Yeah. I play it when my kids are going to bed.

你们会一起玩吗？

Do you guys play together?

我女儿会玩。她喜欢玩Wordle。

My daughter plays. She likes playing Wordle.

如果你哪天错过了，还有存档可以玩。

If you ever miss a day, there's also archives.

知道这个真是太好了。

That's so great to know.

还有你

And you

连接方面也同样适用。

have it for connections as well.

主啊，帮帮我。

Lord, help me.

我打算每天都这么做。《纽约时报》游戏订阅者现在可以访问我们最受欢迎游戏的存档。更多信息请访问nytimes.com/games。

I'm just gonna be doing that all day, every day. New York Times game subscribers can now access archives for our most popular games. Find out more at nytimes.com/games.

欢迎回来。这里是书评播客，我是吉尔伯特·克鲁兹。本周和我一起的是书评的三位编辑同事：蒂娜·乔丹、乔玛娜·哈提卜和斯科特·海勒，我们将讨论我们的21世纪百大图书项目。乔玛娜刚刚提到她有多喜欢乔治·桑德斯的短篇小说。斯科特或蒂娜，你们觉得这份榜单上还有哪些书特别令人愉悦吗？

Welcome back. This is the book review podcast, and I'm Gilbert Cruz. I'm joined this week by three of my fellow editors at the book review, Tina Jordan, Jomana Khatib, and Scott Heller to talk about our 100 books of the twenty first century project. Jomana just mentioned how much she loves George Saunders, the short stories of George Saunders. Are there any other books on this list that Scott or Tina you found particularly pleasurable?

如果愉悦指的是让人捧腹大笑，我要提名艾莉森·贝克德尔的《欢乐之家》。

If by pleasurable, you mean laugh out loud funny, I'm going to nominate Alison Bechdel's Fun Home.

那是不是让人捧腹大笑？

That's is that a laugh out loud?

好吧，可能我的幽默感有点病态。这是一本图文回忆录。是的，她的家人住在殡仪馆里。

Okay. Maybe I have a morbid sense of humor. This is a graphic memoir. Yes. Her family lived in a funeral home.

她很有趣。你知道有些作家就是能触动你的心弦，不管写什么。我从来没笑得这么厉害过。好吧。

She's just funny. You know how some writers, you just whatever it is, that they strike that chord in you. I've never laughed so hard. Okay.

斯科特？好的。我要推荐榜单上的第16本，《卡瓦利与克雷的神奇冒险》，迈克尔·夏邦这本关于漫画产业历史的书简直令人愉悦。它捕捉了文化的创造过程，展现了移民的经历，内容丰富生动。

Scott? Alright. I would say going to the list number 16, The Amazing Adventures of Cavalier and Clay, Michael Chabon's book about the history of the comic book industry is a complete delight. It captures the making of culture. It captures the immigrant experience, and it it's just rich and vivid.

这是本大部头，属于那种让你沉浸其中无法自拔的厚书，我觉得它完全可以继续写下去。我彻底爱上了它。紧接着榜单上的下一本是保罗·比蒂的《出卖》，这是一部

It's a long book. It's one of those big fat books that you lose yourself into it in, and I felt like it could have gone on. I would I completely loved it. And then actually, one right after that on the list is The Sellout by Paul Beatty, which is a

相当出色、大胆讽刺种族和种族主义的作品。

pretty impressive, pretty bold satire about race and racism.

毫无疑问，读这两本书时你都会会心一笑甚至开怀大笑。

And there's no question, you'll smile and you'll laugh at both.

而《Sellout》这本书出现在我们今年早些时候评选的‘自《第22条军规》以来最有趣书籍’的评论家名单上。这是正确的吗？

And the sellout appeared on our critics list from earlier this year of the funniest book since catch '22. Is that correct?

是的。确实如此。没错。没错。事实上，这是唯一一本同时入选的书。

Yes. It did. Yeah. Yeah. The only crossover, in fact.

我想可能是这样。

I'm I think that might be.

那么，听众朋友们，如果你们还没看过那份书单，请务必找来看看。我们这里不止做书单，但那确实也是一份很棒的书单。我收到几条短信询问的一个问题——顺便向我朋友Lenore问好——是关于小说与非小说之间的区分。我们决定将两个类别合并为一个书单，而不是分成两份。我认为我们的考量是，或许我们只有一次机会做这件事，如果真要重复这个工作量，我们可能会崩溃。

Well, listeners, if you haven't checked out that list, please do find it. We do more than lists here, but that is that's that's a great one as well. One question that I've gotten a couple texts about, shout out my friend Lenore, is the break between fiction and nonfiction. We decided to do both categories in one list as opposed to doing two lists. I think it was our estimation that maybe we had one shot at this and we could not we would collapse if we actually had to do this effort twice.

我相信这里面有26本非小说类书籍。所以略超过四分之一的书籍是非小说类。在调查受访者选择的非小说类书籍类型中，有哪些特别引起了你们的注意？

There are, I believe, 26 non fiction books on here. So just over a quarter of the books are non fiction. What stood out to any of you in terms of the types of nonfiction books that our poll respondents picked?

实际上让我印象深刻的是其多样性。虽然数量不多，如你所说，只占四分之一。现实中这可能并不完全反映图书销售情况，但小说的销量确实远超非小说。但在入选的非小说作品中，我们有像卡罗所著的LBJ最后一卷这样的宏篇传记。

What stood out to me actually was the wide range. We don't have that many of them. Like you said, it's a quarter. I think in real life that probably it may not exactly mirror book sales, but fiction does greatly outsell nonfiction. But of the nonfiction that appears, we have massive biographies like Caro's last volume of LBJ.

我们有历史著作、回忆录、调查性报道，甚至还有真实犯罪类。真的涵盖了非常广泛的类型。

We've got histories. We've got memoirs. We've got investigative reporting. We even have true crime. Like, it's really a broad range.

是的。我们有弗雷德里克·道格拉斯的传记。我们有罗伯特·卡罗关于林登·约翰逊系列的第四卷《噤声》，调查类的。那是调查类吗？真实犯罪？

Yes. We have the Frederick Douglass biography. We have the Robert Caro fourth volume in his LBJ series, Say Nothing, Investigative. Is that Investigative? True Crime?

或者

Or

那是

is that

一本书？对。一本深受喜爱且在榜单上排名很高的书。我们有好几本回忆录。

a book? Yeah. A a beloved book that that placed very high on the list. We have several memoirs.

还有，《H代表鹰》。

Also, h is for Hawk.

《H代表鹰》，安妮·埃尔诺的作品。我觉得列在这里的书单，感觉选得挺对的。《随机家庭》，阿德里安娜·妮可·勒布朗那本2001年2月出版的书？

H is for Hawk, Annie Erno. The ones that are on here, I feel like I feel like the right ones. Random Family, the Adrianne Nicole LeBlanc book that came out in 02/2001?

2003年2月。

02/2003.

2003年2月。

02/2003.

它就在我的清单上。在这里看到它让我非常开心。

It was on my list. I was very happy to see it here.

是啊。说实话，我有点担心那些世纪初的书会被人遗忘，但它们并没有。这本书显然引起了每位读者的共鸣。

Yeah. I sort of fear that some of those early century books, to to be honest, would get lost, and they didn't. That book clearly has resonated with anyone who's read it.

我以为除了我没人还会记得这本书。所以当我在榜单上看到它时特别高兴。2003年还有哪部小说进了前十？是爱德华·P·琼斯的《已知世界》，同样出版于2003年。

I thought no one is still going to be thinking about this book but me. And I so then when I saw it on the list, I was happy. What else is from 2003 is a fiction that's in the top 10, the the known world by Edward p Jones, also 2,003.

2001年出版的《纠正》也是。我知道乔纳森·弗兰岑可能从没听说过播客，更不会听这期节目。我特别好奇这本书会排在什么位置——毕竟它问世时的争议，那种开启新世纪的感觉（记得它比《卡瓦利尔与克莱》晚一年出版）。人们还会记得吗？事实证明他们记得，第五名的成绩，用俗话说就是不容小觑。

As is the corrections from 2,001, which is a book that, look, I know Jonathan Friends has not probably has never heard of a podcast, and he's not certainly not listening to this one. I was so curious as to where this book would place on the list because as the whole controversy of when it came out and this feeling that it started the century, it came out a year after Cavalier and Play, I believe. And would people remember it? And I will tell you they did because number five is, as they say, nothing to sniff it.

我们最初还担心大家只会关注近年出版的书。

And we had gone into this whole process a little bit worried that people would only be thinking about more recent books.

嗯。

Mhmm.

但实际上，过去几年的大部分作品在这里并没有得到很好的体现。

But in fact, for the most part, the last few years aren't really well represented here at all.

确实没有。不过我认为——我也很想听听其他人的看法——因为这里存在轻微的新近偏差。你会发现，我在想《恶魔铜头》《信任》《明天，明天》，或许还有过去两年里的一两本书，如果我们一年后再做这个评选，这些书是否还会在列。需要明确的是，这些都是很棒的书，我并不是说它们不该入选。

No. Though I think the ones and I'd love to hear other people's opinions on this, because there is there is a slight recency bias. You'll see I wonder if Demon Copperhead, Trust, Tomorrow and Tomorrow, there might be one or two others from the past two years if we took this in a year, if those would be if those would still be on. All great books, to be clear. I'm not suggesting that any of them are not.

我只是好奇，过去几年有哪些书真正留在了人们的记忆中。显然，其中两本是普利策奖得主，另一本是近几年最畅销的作品之一，它们经受住了时间的考验。

I'm just curious as to what are the books from the past few years that have stuck in people's minds. And, clearly, two of those books are Pulitzer Prize winners. One of them is one of the biggest bestsellers of the past couple years, and they have lasted.

没错。我的意思是，你提到的只有五本书。而我们最初担心的是：天啊，要是书单上大部分都是近七八年的作品怎么办？结果这种情况根本没发生。

True. My point was you're talking about five books here. And we went into this thinking, oh, no. What if most of the books on the list are from the last seven or eight years? And that just did not happen.

希玛娜，你刚才想谈谈那位诺贝尔奖得主？

Shimana, you were gonna talk about the Nobel winner?

对。我想聊聊《七部曲》，作为这部包含七册的巨著其中半部的粉丝，我在想：如果作者去年没有获得诺奖，这本书是否还能在榜单上排名这么高？虽然看到它上榜我很高兴。有件事让我夜不能寐——我们会在书单里看到怎样的国际作品代表？能看到多少翻译文学？

Yeah. I was gonna talk about septology because that to me and I say that as a fan of the half of one of the seven books of that this book encompasses. I wonder if he hadn't received the Nobel last year, if it would be as high on the list as it would be. Although I'm delighted to see it. One thing I was worried about, because these are the things that keep me up at night, is what kind of international representation we would see, what kind of translated literature we would see.

你提到了安妮·埃尔诺的《岁月》，关于它是否属于非虚构作品我要和你商榷，不过这话题够另开一期播客了。

You mentioned The Years by Anier Neaux. I'm gonna quibble with you about whether that's non fiction, but that's a whole other podcast.

这是什么，给我稍微尝一点

What's what just give me a little taste of

颤抖的感觉。

the quiver.

我这么说是因为我深陷于无杂草的空气中，那很好。但她为自己的文学项目创造了一个社会学新词。它不完全算自传，也不完全是小说，而是介于两者之间的某个地方相遇。

I say this as somebody who is so deep in the air no weeds that fine. But she coined her own sociological term for her literary project. It's it's not quite autobiography, and it's not quite fiction, but out in the middle somewhere they meet.

我这里用的是直白的分类。哦，是的。是的。而且我们有

I'm dealing in blunt categories here. Oh, yeah. Yeah. And we have

非虚构作品。抱歉。细微差别不太适合

non fiction. Sorry. Nuance is not so good for

一本书。我们在这个播客里不讨论细微差别。

a book. We do not deal in nuance on this podcast.

这个整天闲坐的家伙

This guy who sits around

那个号角。

the horn.

比如，我们可是在ESPN上。你已经忘了。

Like, we're on ESPN. You already forgot.

你忘了那个号角。好吧，算了。这是非虚构的。

You forgot about the horn. Okay. Forget it. It is nonfiction.

好吧。那么

Okay. So

除了法国作家外，当然还有博洛尼亚的作品上榜，这让我很兴奋。甚至还有托娃·迪特莱夫森，她写的《哥本哈根三部曲》是一本让我和许多朋友印象深刻的书。完全出乎意料。几年前我们曾将其评为十佳之一。所以看到来自世界各地的优秀作品得到认可真是太好了。

in addition to the French writers and, of course, Bologna is on here, which was exciting to me. Even had Tova Ditlevsen who wrote the Copenhagen trilogy, which is a book that has stuck with me and a lot of my friends. Kind of came as a total shock out of left field. We named it as one of our 10 best couple years ago. So it's just it's nice to see a really good representation from across the world.

《我在伊朗长大》，《素食者》。不错。我睡得更好些了。

Persepolis, The Vegetarian. It's good. I'm sleeping better.

好吧。考虑到过去几十年一些人眼中的世界状况，我可能并不意外会在这里看到几部反乌托邦小说。有些极其黑暗，比如科马克·麦卡锡的《路》，讲述一对父子在路上的故事。他们身处核战后满目疮痍的美国，努力求生，周围还有食人族，尽管作者试图在结尾留一丝希望，但整体仍十分阴郁。这类作品就在其中。

Okay. So one thing that I was maybe not surprised to see given the what some interpret as the state of the world over the past couple decades was several dystopian novels on here. There are ones that are incredibly dark, like Cormac McCarthy's The Road, which is about a father and a son on the road. They're in a burned out post nuclear war America, and they're trying to survive, and they're cannibals, and it's just grim even though he tries to leave you with a flicker of hope at the end. So you have something like that.

有艾米莉·圣约翰·曼德尔的《11号站》。这本书在疫情初期变得非常流行，因为它讲述了一种超级流感摧毁了大部分世界的故事，还被HBO精彩改编成剧。但与《路》不同，这本书会让你感到一丝希望。书中很大一部分内容是关于一群演员在五大湖之一周围巡游，将文明最后的火花——莎士比亚，带给所有他们遇到的人群。

There was Station 11 by Emily St. John Mandel. This is a book that became very popular during the early days of the pandemic because it was about a super flu that took out most of the world, had an amazing HBO adaptation. But this, unlike the road, is a book that leaves you feeling a little bit hopeful. A big part of the book is about a troop of actors sort of walking around one of the great lakes, bringing the last flickers of civilization, Shakespeare, to all the groups of people that they run into.

尽管世界上大多数人还是死了，书中也有非常悲伤的部分，但它也讲述了艺术的持久性，我们如何用艺术提醒自己是人类，如何在最黑暗的时刻用艺术提醒自己世界上仍有美好。《11号站》是一本很棒的书。然后是《别让我走》，我最近形容它可能是现存最安静的 dystopian 小说。大部分内容是关于一群在英国寄宿学校的孩子。我不会剧透这本书的真正内容，但一旦你发现这些寄宿学校的孩子们身上发生了什么，他们过着日常的小生活，跑步、小争吵、互相挖苦，就会感到无比悲伤。

And while, again, most people in the world died, and there are very sad parts of the book, it's also about the persistence of art, how we use art to remind ourselves that we're human, how we use art to remind ourselves that in the darkest of times, there is beauty in the world. Station 11 is just a great book. And then there is Never Let Me Go, which I think I characterized it recently as the quietest dystopian novel that might ever exist. Most of it is about a bunch of kids at an English boarding school. I'm not gonna ruin what the book is actually about, but once you discover what is actually happening to the kids in this boarding school, where they're living their little quotidian lives and just running and having little arguments and sniping at each other, it becomes crushingly sad.

我不知道。二十世纪二十一世纪，是不是因为太悲伤了，所以我们比以往任何时候都更关心 dystopian 小说？

I don't know. The twentieth century twenty first century, has it been so sad that we care about dystopian novels more than ever?

夏天的 dystopia。不。这是大多数优秀文学的基石。对优秀作家来说，它从未遥不可及。我是...我不知道我是否这么认为。

Dystopia for summer. No. This is part of the firmament of most good literature. It's never that far out of reach for the good writers. Am I do I think I don't know.

我们是不是集体需要一些镇静剂？也许吧。我不是医生。我不知道。斯科特，你怎么看？

Do we need some benzos collectively? Maybe. I'm not a doctor. I don't know. Scott, what do you think?

我其实以为名单上会有更多 bleak 的内容。事实上，抱歉听到...是的，我真的这么以为。我确实这么想。

I I actually would have thought that there would be more bleak stuff on the list. In fact, sorry to hear. Yeah. I really did. I did.

我其实以为《路》会排名更高。不是...我不知道如何判断一本书的排名高低是否反映了人们对世界的绝望程度。

I I thought the road would be higher, in fact. Not I don't know how you judge whether book how high it's ranked is how miserable people feel about the world.

而且这是个直接联系，斯科特。

And It's a direct connection, Scott.

确实如此。好吧。我和评论家们有过一次对话，我们讨论了这份书单如何折射出9·11事件的阴影以及二十一世纪的主题。共识似乎是人们倾向于选择那些让他们远离而非直面世界现状的书籍。实际上我某种程度上也认同这个观点。

There is. Okay. And I I had a conversation with the critics, we talked about whether this list and how this list speaks to the shadow of 09/11 and what the twenty first century has been about. And I think the agreement was it felt like people were picking books that took them away from the state of the world more than took them closer to. And I kind of agree with that actually.

就与政治局势直接相关的作品而言，我们有《末日巨塔》。劳伦斯·赖特那本书非常具体地讲述了9·11事件及其余波。但这类题材更多是边缘性存在，甚至很多方面连边缘都算不上。这份书单上有相当数量的历史小说，当然这些作品可能仍以各种方式影射着当代美国。

In terms of directly stuff that's directly connected to the political situation, we have the looming tower. The Lawrence Wright book was very specifically about nine eleven and its aftermath. But it's really only around the edges and in many ways not even around the edges. There's quite a number of historical novels on this list, which, of course, are in still maybe about contemporary American all in all sorts

尤其是那些关于种族和奴隶制的小说，本质上仍然在探讨当下。它们不仅仅

of ways, especially the novels that are about race and slavery inevitably are still about now. They're not just

是在讲述过去。但二十一世纪的这个侧面，我发现其呈现程度比我预期的要少得多。

about then. But there's something about this facts facet of the twenty first century that I find found there to be not as much as I expected.

我完全同意，特别是因为我们讨论的时间段前半期，这也曾是青少年文学领域的主流题材。对吧？

I do agree with that, especially because for the first half of the time period we're talking about, it was also what consumed the young adult literary landscape. Right?

比如《饥饿游戏》。《饥饿游戏》。对，没错。

Like Like Hunger Games. Hunger Games. Right. Right.

这就是全部了。

That's all there was.

我最初非常感兴趣、至今仍在思考的另一点是：这些书单中的作品大多诞生于数字优先时代。我们是否觉得这些书像是活在互联网阴影下的产物——它们由那些注意力难以集中阅读的人创作并面向这类读者，而实际上正如我们所有人一样，人们越来越多地通过听书而非阅读来消费内容。我本想与评论家们深入探讨这点，他们的回答也颇具启发性，但我更想听听在场各位的想法。

The other thing I was really interested going in, and and I'm still trying to figure out, is these are this is a list of books that were all produced in the digital first era for the most part. And do we feel like these are books that, like, live in the shadow of the Internet, that that are made by and for people who are don't have the attention spans to read and are actually, as we all are, listening to books and not just reading books, which is increasingly part of the way people are consuming. I was interested in getting into that with the critics, and I think the critics had some interesting answers, but I'm curious what people here think.

首先斯科特，我认为听书就是读书。

First of all, Scott, I think listening to a book is reading a book.

谢谢。好的。我明白你的意思。

Thank you. Okay. I hear you.

你提到的某一点让我想到历史小说的盛行程度——如果连八十年代都开始被归为历史小说，这个分类或许已经宽泛得有些过头了。但历史小说作为类型文学有多么受欢迎，在我们的书单上体现得多么充分：从《狼厅》到《已知的世界》，从《地下铁道》到《柏青哥》，再到《林肯在中阴界》。这些无疑都属于历史小说范畴。若细看这份百佳书单，历史小说可能占比高达40%左右。

One thing you mentioned does remind me just how popular historical fiction and historical fiction, I feel like, is possibly on the edge of being too broad a category at this point, if we're real if the eighties are starting to be historical fiction. But how popular historical fiction is as a category, as a genre, and how well represented it is on our list. From Wolf Hall to the known world to the Underground Railroad to to Pachinko to Lincoln and the Bardo. I mean, those arguably are all pieces of historical fiction. And I think if you go down the list of a 100 here, you probably have a 40% or something like that.

我同意你的观点。

I agree with you.

其实斯科特，关于互联网对书单影响程度的观点，或许真相是它把人们推向了相反方向。就在我们谈论科技狂潮和不顾代价的激进进步时，人们正转向历史小说寻求逃避——这个结论我愿意为之辩护。

So, you know, actually, Scott, your point about to what extent the Internet has influenced this list, maybe it's that it drove people in the other direction. Like, at the same time when we're talking about the tech boom and barreling towards relentless progress at what cost, people are being driven to historical fiction as a means of escape. That I could think that I'm willing to stand behind that.

我们有个理论。

We have a theory.

看吧。这也让那些大部头小说更令人愉悦——沉浸于老式叙事中，这份书单里就有不少这样的作品，我认为这正是当下的乐趣所在，因为我们接收的信息如此碎片化。能持续体验一个完整的故事实属享受。

Look. It also makes big fat novels more pleasurable to be sinking into an old fashioned narrative, and there's many of them on this list, I think is a pleasure of this moment because we're receiving information in bits and fragments so much. And to sustain a a real story is a pleasure.

接近尾声时我很好奇，想再请大家推荐一本未上榜但你特别热衷的书。斯科特？

So as we draw to a close here, I'm curious. I'd love to go around again and just ask each of you to stump for a book that did not appear on the list, but you are particularly passionate about. Scott?

我们之前讨论过幽默作品，另一份书单中最爆笑的《然后我们走到了尽头》（约书亚·费里斯著）我真心希望入选本次榜单，这是史上最精彩职场喜剧之一。无论你在哪工作都会开怀大笑，或许还会潸然泪下。这本确实在我的提名名单里。另一本独特之作是担任戏剧编辑多年的我力荐的——斯蒂芬·桑德海姆歌词集《完成帽子》与《看我做了顶帽子》，随着越来越多人爱上桑德海姆，这些展现他作为伟大词作家和自我批判者的珍贵文献终将获得重视。

We were talking about Funny before, and one of the funniest books that was on the other list, and I wish was on this one, is Then We Came to the End by Joshua Ferris, which I think is one of the absolute funniest workplace comedies ever. And wherever you work, you're gonna laugh. And then you may cry a little bit too, but I think that's one that I really do think was on my ballot and I wish it was made it into the fullest. And the other one that was on my ballot, and that's just singular and there's not that many of us who would have gone for it, but I had been the theater editor for a long time, and the best theater books that have come out during this period are these two books of Stephen Sondheim's lyrics called Finishing the Hat and Look I Made a Hat. And the more people are embracing Sondheim, the more people are gonna start looking back at these books and realize that he's an amazing writer, lyricist, and an amazing critic of his own work.

你能从中了解他创作某些史上最伟大歌曲时的

And you're introduced to his thought processes as he wrote some of the greatest songs in

戏剧性思维过程，这些书堪称奇迹。

theater history, and they're incredible books.

斯科特，我超爱那套书，亮粉色和亮蓝色封面的。

Scott, I love those books. There's the one's sort of a bright pink cover. One's a bright blue cover.

没错。

That's right.

他为歌词做了注解。还有原始制作的照片。那些简直太棒了。无论是送人还是自用都是好礼物。谢谢。

He annotates his lyrics. There's photos from the original productions. Those are absolutely wonderful. A good gift for anyone or for yourself. Thank you.

西玛娜。

Ximana.

我很喜欢达娜·斯皮奥塔，乔治·桑德斯的同事。我为她的一本书投了票。我觉得她每本书都精彩绝伦。

So I love Dana Spiotta, colleague of George Saunders. I voted for one of her books. I think she's just incredible book to book to book.

我本来希望在这里看到《吞噬文件》。这是2006年2月的作品，讲述的是七十年代活动家的故事。

I would have liked to see eat the document on here. This is from 02/2006. It is about sort of nineteen seventies activists.

里面提到了鲍勃·迪伦。我超爱她。真希望能见过她，不过达娜，你已在我的清单上了。

There's a Bob Dylan reference. I love her. I wish I'd seen her, but, Dana, you're on my list.

蒂娜，你本来希望在这里看到什么？

Tina, what would you have liked to have seen on here?

我本希望能看到一本名为《付费客人》的小说，作者是莎拉·沃特斯，这大概是我本世纪迄今为止最喜欢的书。

I would have loved to have seen a novel called The Paying Guests by Sarah Waters, which I think is probably my favorite book of the century so far.

好选择，蒂娜。很好

Good pick, Tina. Good

的选择。故事背景设定在二十世纪二十年代的英国，那是战后特别艰难的岁月。

pick. It's set in Britain in the nineteen twenties when things were postwar years when things were especially grim.

这是蒂娜的专长。没错。

That's a Tina special. Yeah.

对。对。

Right. Right.

一位年轻女子和她母亲为了维持生计收了一名房客。这位名叫莉莲的房客与女儿弗朗西斯相爱了。但故事背景还涉及一桩谋杀案，具体我不能剧透。书中有许多极具冲击力的场景让我永生难忘，比如有人被直柄剃刀刮胡子时，你确信那人必死无疑。

A young woman and her mother are taking in a lodger to help them make ends meet. And the lodger they take in, her name is Lillian, she and the daughter, Frances, fall in love. But it's set against the backdrop of a murder, which I can't get into. But there are individual scenes of such power in this book that I'll never get out of my head. There's one scene where someone is being given a shave with a straight razor, and you're certain it's going to end in that person's death.

阅读时你会紧张得冒汗，因为悬念被拉到了极致。不知道你是否也有同感，朱玛娜，但这个故事真是跌宕起伏，堪称绝妙。

And you're reading and you're just sweating because the tension is dialed so high. I don't know if you experienced it like that, Jumanah, but I just highs and lows, but just an incredible story.

真庆幸我不刮胡子。

Makes me happy I don't shave my face.

是啊。这让我

Yeah. It's making

想起了甜心

me think of sweetie

托德。对啊。

Todd. Yeah.

应该的。

It should.

没错。

Yeah.

对吧？吉尔伯特，你有过吗？

Right? Gilbert, did you have one?

不，我列在清单上的每本书最终都出现在这里了。

No. Every book I put on my list ended up on here.

真的吗？

So Really?

是啊。不，我开玩笑的。哦，不对，我提到过《消失的爱人》。

Yeah. No. I'm just kidding. Oh, no. I mentioned Gone Girl.

我认为《消失的爱人》应该上榜。我列了斯蒂芬·金的《写作这回事》，其实我以为这本书会出现在这个榜单上。但是

I think Gone Girl is one that should be on there. I I put I put On Writing by Stephen King, which actually I thought would would have appeared on this list. But

但你看，我认为金没上榜的原因是他有太多杰作了。他获得了大量投票，可当你每年写一本书时，票数就会被分散。

But but see, I think that the reason King isn't on this list is that he has so many great books. I think he got a lot of votes. But when you write a book a year, the votes are gonna get split.

没错。我们其实该以讨论一个系列作结尾——这个系列没有一本书上榜。人们有点意外，我想是因为这个系列的书太多了。费兰特有四本书，那确实不少。

Yeah. We actually should end by talking about a series that none of the books appeared on this list. People are a little bit surprised, and I think it's because there are so many of them. Ferrante has four books. That's a lot of books.

但还有个人写了七本？

But there's someone else that has seven?

六。六，我想，你正在思考。

Six. Six, I think, you're thinking.

我在说什么？

What am I talking about?

你在谈论我们伟大的倾吐者，卡尔·奥瓦·克内尔斯高。嗯哼。嗯哼。

You're talking about our great disgorger, Karl Ova Knellsgaard. Uh-huh. Uh-huh.

六本《我的奋斗》。

Six My Struggle books.

《我的奋斗》六部曲。

Six My Struggles.

我们的榜单上连一本都没有出现，我认为这不是因为人们不喜欢它们，而是因为大家投票给了不同的作品。

Not a one appeared on our list, and I think it's not because people don't like them, but because people just voted for different ones.

但话说回来，看看我们榜单上有多少系列丛书。我想指出的是，费兰蒂有两本上榜，希拉里·曼特尔也有两本来自她的系列作品。

But then again, look at how many series books we do have on the list. I would just like to point out that Ferranti has two. Hilary Mantel has two from her series.

所以你是说，如果他把它们全部打包在一起，你和

So you're saying if he had bundled all of them together, you and

福斯的道歉。

Foss apology.

是啊。天哪。

Yeah. Oh god.

我不知道。

I don't know.

那对听众来说，你们看不到我在做什么，但这本书本该是这么假的。我不认为装订存在。

That would have been listeners, you can't see what I'm doing, but the book would have been this fake. I don't think Binding exists.

我只是不认为它确实影响了他。我认为这绝对影响了斯蒂芬·金。但在其他案例中，那些热爱所有书籍的人，比如为阿姨选了四本中的两本，为希拉里·曼特尔选了三本中的两本。

I just don't think it I think it definitely affected him. I think it definitely affected Stephen King. But I think in other cases, people who loved all the books, look two of four for Auntie, two of three for Hillary Mantel.

没错。向斯科特·特罗致敬，他把那不勒斯四部曲全放进了他的投票名单。

Yeah. Shout out to Scott Turow who put all four of the Neapolitan quartet on his ballot.

这景象令人惊叹。我从未想过在所有人中，他竟会是那个例外。但喜好本就因人而异。他痴迷于那不勒斯四部曲中所有的法律戏剧元素。

It was amazing to see. I never would have guessed that of all the people on there, he would have been the one. But you like what you like. He loves all the legal drama in the Neapolitan quartet.

那不勒斯根本没有法治可言。或许这正是他钟爱的原因。

There's no rule of law in Naples. Maybe that's what he likes.

能与三位畅谈这个项目是我的荣幸。过去数月与各位共事非常愉快，而我真心期待再也不必讨论它了。感谢朱玛娜本周加入我们的书评播客。

It has been a pleasure to talk about this project with all three of you. It's been a pleasure to work on it over the past many months with all of you, and I genuinely look forward to never speaking about it again. So thank you for joining me this week on the Book Review podcast, Jumana.

谢谢邀请，我玩得很开心。至于你们嘛...我就不清楚了。

Thanks for having me. I had fun. I don't know about you.

斯科特，你第一次就做到了。

Scott, you did it first time.

我做到了。下次我会更有趣的。

I did it. I'll be funnier next time.

你肯定会再来的。蒂娜，再次感谢你。

You'll definitely be back. Tina, thank you again.

谢谢邀请。近期请别再启动另一个大项目了。

Thanks for having me. Please don't start another big project anytime soon.

好的，好的。我决定在节目中承诺——听众朋友们，如果你们还没看过的话，请务必查阅我们评选的‘21世纪迄今100本最佳书籍’榜单，这是由503位作家及文学界权威人士投票选出的。您可以在nytimes.com上找到这份榜单。

Okay. Okay. I guess I will promise on air. Listeners, please do, if for some reason you haven't, check out our list of the 100 books of the twenty first century so far as voted on by 503 writers and other literary luminaries. You can find that on nytimes.com.

请务必告诉我们您对这份榜单的看法。阅读愉快。以上是我与《书评》栏目同事斯科特·海勒和蒂娜·乔丹关于‘21世纪100本最佳书籍’项目的对话。如我所说，希望您已有机会阅读、体验这份榜单，核对您读过哪些书，又想读哪些书。也欢迎您分享您心目中的十佳书籍。

Please do let us know what you think of the list. Happy reading. That was my conversation with Scott Heller, and Tina Jordan, my fellow editors at The Book Review about our 100 books of the twenty first century project. As I said, I hope you've had an opportunity to read it, to experience it, to check which books you've read, which books you wanna read. You've taken our opportunity to share your 10.

这份榜单内容丰富。一如既往地，这句话依然成立——我是《纽约时报书评》编辑吉尔伯特·克鲁兹，感谢您的收听。

There's a lot to do there. As always, it's still true. I'm Gilbert Cruz, editor of the Times Book Review. Thanks for listening.