周日特辑：电视界的盛典之夜

大家好，我是《纽约时报》旗下产品推荐服务Wirecutter的迈克尔·沙利文。今天我们在厨房测试罐装番茄，正在品尝甜度、酸度，当然还有颜色和质地。这些番茄质地相当丝滑。

Hi. It's Michael Sullivan from Wirecutter, the product recommendation service from The New York Times. And today, we're in the kitchen testing canned tomatoes. We're tasting for sweetness, acidity, definitely the color, the texture. These tomatoes, they're pretty velvety.

用勺子就能轻松碾碎。我们编写的指南是鲜活流动的——毕竟是罐装水果，每年都会有所不同。在Wirecutter，我们替您完成繁琐的测评工作。若需获取真实世界的独立产品评测与推荐，请访问nytimes.com/wirecutter。

Like, they break apart easily with a spoon. The guides that we write are living, breathing things. It's a piece of fruit in a can, so it's gonna change every year. At Wirecutter, we do the work so you don't have to. For independent product reviews and recommendations for the real world, come visit us at nytimes.com/wirecutter.

欢迎各位来到周日特别节目《每日书评》。我是《纽约时报书评》编辑吉尔伯特·克鲁兹。每周在这里，您都会听到我们畅谈

Welcome everyone to the Daily Sunday special. I'm Gilbert Cruz, the editor of the New York Times Book Review. And every week here, you'll find us talking about

电影、书籍、艺术等各类文化话题。今天我们要讨论的是电视剧。

movies, books, the arts, just all sorts of culture. Today, we're talking about TV.

今晚即将举行电视界最高盛典艾美奖，表彰2024年6月1日至2025年5月31日期间播出的最佳剧集。评委会让规则变得非常简单，一点都不复杂。在纽约，我们齐聚一堂讨论那些令人念念不忘的提名剧集，接下来将深入剖析其中几部作品。

The Emmy Awards are tonight, the biggest night in television, marking the best shows released between 06/01/2024 and 05/31/2025. They've book made it very simple. It's not at all confusing. Here in New York, a group of us has gathered to talk about some of the nominated shows that just keep rattling around in our brains. And we're gonna be talking about some of those shows in-depth.

如果您正在追某部剧但怕被剧透，只需快进几分钟即可完美避开。现场有《纽约时报》喜剧评论家杰森·津纳曼。杰森你好。你好，很高兴来到这里。

So if we get to something that you don't want spoiled, you're in the middle of the season, just jump ahead a few minutes, and all will be well. Here with me is Jason Zinnerman, a critic who writes about comedy for the times. Hello, Jason. Hello. Good to be here.

还有我们的文化记者亚历克西斯·索洛斯基。你好亚历克西斯。嗨，大家好。

And also Alexis Solosky, one of our culture reporters. Hello, Alexis. Hi. Hi. Alright.

接下来需要各位发挥想象力：请设想我们三人悠闲地坐在沙发上，吃着薯片喝着汽水，而我正在切换电视频道

This is there's a conceit here. I and I'm hoping that you can, like, come along with me. You have to use your imagination. So picture the three of us sitting together on a sofa. It was really relaxed, potato chips and soda, and I'm just flipping through channels.

我们边看电视边聊。我会停在某个节目，讨论几分钟后再换台

We're looking at TV. I'm gonna stop on a show, and then we're gonna talk about that show for a few minutes, and then we're gonna change the channel.

电视轮盘赌。

TV roulette.

是的。你能想象吗？

Yes. Can you imagine that?

是的。

Yes.

这是音频。这是心灵的剧场。

This is audio. It's the theater of the mind.

明白了吗？好的。

Got it? Okay.

我加入。

I'm on board.

太好了。好的。那么我要拿起这个完全不是比喻的遥控器。它其实是个真遥控器。

Excellent. Okay. So I am going to pick up this not at all metaphorical remote. It's actually a real remote.

这全靠你了

This is all you

可以这么说。那太老派了。

could say. That's old school.

确实是。我觉得我们应该直接开始，切换到我们的第一个节目。

It is. I think we should just get started and flip to our first show.

恐龙老兄。我才是那个敲门的人。

Dino mate. I am the one who knocks.

欢迎来到急救室。

Welcome to the pit.

我们从茶歇处得到两个急诊病例。五分钟后到达。

We got two dramas from the tea. Five minutes out.

好的。收到。实际上，这是你今天要见的最重要的人。这是达娜，我们的主管护士。

Okay. Copy that. Actually, this is the most important person that you're gonna meet today. This is Dana. She's our charge nurse.

她是我们这个马戏团的总指挥。她说什么你就照做。

She is the ringleader of our circus. Do what she says when she says it.

首先是《急救室》。这是今年引起不小轰动的医疗剧，在HBO Max上播出。剧情设定在匹兹堡一家医院的急诊室，剧名由此而来。剧集讲述了由诺亚·怀利饰演的老医生罗比博士——你刚才在片段中听到的就是他——以及他身边的住院医师和实习生的故事。

First up is The Pit. This is a medical drama that was a bit of a sensation this year. It streamed on HBO Max. It's set in an emergency room in a hospital in Pittsburgh, hence the name of the show. And it follows a veteran doctor named doctor Robbie, played by Noah Wiley, who you just heard in that clip, and the sort of residents and interns around him.

我多年没看医疗剧了，但真的很喜欢这部。亚历克西斯，我知道你也看了并且很喜欢。

I had not watched a hospital show in years. Really enjoyed this one. Alexis, I know you watched and enjoyed this one too.

是的。起初我并不想看，因为我觉得，哦，我不喜欢医疗剧。我不需要医疗剧。我觉得它们让人紧张，太过戏剧化。

I did. I didn't at first because I thought, oh, I I don't like hospital shows. I don't need hospital shows. I find them stressful. I find them melodramatic.

然后我开始看这部剧，感觉就像沉浸在一个充满专业能力的温水浴中。这些人非常擅长他们的工作，看着他们专业地工作就像是我的ASMR（自发性知觉经络反应），非常舒缓我。

And then I started watching this one, and it was like sinking into a warm bath of competence. These people are so good at what they do, and watching them be good at what they do is it's my ASMR. Like, it it soothes me.

我完全同意你刚才说的。我可能自《急诊室的故事》之后就没再认真看过医疗剧了，而且这背后有些奇妙的联系。迈克尔·克莱顿 essentially 创作了《急诊室的故事》，而他的遗孀说这部剧感觉就像是《急诊室的故事》的重启版。它有同一位主要制片人约翰·威尔斯，有同一位主演诺亚·怀利。

I agree with everything you just said. I possibly have not watched a medical show intensely since ER, and there's weirdness around this. Michael Crichton essentially created ER, and Michael Crichton's widow said this just feels like a reboot of ER. It has one of the main producers, John Wells. It has one of the main stars, Noah Wiley.

你们在干什么？

What are you guys doing?

这真是个忒修斯之船式的情况。

This is a real Theseus ship kind of situation.

这确实充满风险，法院也解决不了。但那份信任是真实的。在我们所处的这个时代，看着人们展现善良本身就令人慰藉——尽管剧情紧张刺激。就像在说：真希望我在生活中做任何事都能像这些人对待工作般出色。

It's it's it's fraught, and the courts won't work it out. But the confidence is real. And there's something about the time we are living in in which it is soothing, even though the show is intensely stressful. Just watch people be good. It's like, I wish I was as good at anything I do in my life as these people are at what they do.

当人们带着问题而来，他们进行诊断。找出症结所在，然后对症治疗。这才是真正的医疗。

And when people come in with problems, they diagnose them. They find out what's wrong, and then they treat it. It's the true one.

你是说这才是医疗本该有的样子？

Are you saying this is how the the how medicine should work?

没错。这样难道不美妙吗？

Yes. Wouldn't that be amazing?

你觉得诺亚·怀利怎么样？我差点忘了他荧幕魅力有多惊人。

What did you think about Noah Wiley, who I guess I forgot how wonderful the screen presence he is?

确实。他在《急诊室的故事》里太年轻，青涩的模样反而削弱了感染力。但如今带着岁月痕迹的诺亚·怀利，脸上有了皱纹...

He is. I mean, I think that when he was on ER, he was so young and he looked so young that I didn't find him as compelling. But, you know, a Noah Wiley with some miles on him, with some lines on his face, like I

是指他胡子里的灰白吗？

That gray in his beard?

直接戳中我的心巴。太爱了。

Straight into my veins. I love it.

罗比医生——他角色叫这名字对吧——完全是我的菜。等不及要看一月份开播的第二季了。杰森，你好像还没看过这部剧吧？

Doctor Robbie, which is the name again of his character, is my guy. I can't not waited till season two, which is starting in January. Jason, you didn't sort of dip into this.

没有。我从没看过这部剧。听你谈论它让我很好奇。它总是以同样的方式结束吗？

No. I've never seen the show. And I hearing you talk about it makes me curious. Does it always end the same way?

在什么方面，比如，什么

In what in Like, what

它总是以问题得到解决而结束吗？

does it always end with some with the problem being solved?

不。不。不。它不是程序化的。它更像是，你知道的，故事情节会延续好几集，但这是一个15小时的轮班。

No. No. No. It's not procedural. It like, it is you know, storylines will go through several episodes, but it is one fifteen hour shift.

而且有一个特定的危机。嗯哼。你会想，哦，我真的不需要再来一场危机了。在这个人满为患、人手不足的急诊室里，危机已经够多了。但危机出现了，他们就去处理它。

And there is a a particular crisis. Uh-huh. And you were like, oh, I did not need a crisis. There was crisis enough already in this overcrowded, understaffed emergency room. But there is a crisis, and they handle it.

他们尽最大努力去处理。还有，护士长达娜，如果护士长达娜告诉我们该做什么我们就照做，我们所有人的生活该变得多美好啊？我觉得那会非常好。

They handle it the best they can. Also, charge nurse Dana, how much better would all of our lives be if charge nurse Dana told us what to do and we did it? I think it would be very good.

听好了。中央七八九区现在是献血中心。任何人是O型阴性或O型（停顿）的，我们需要你现在就献血。把手放在我能看到的地方。

Listen up. Central seven eight nine is now the blood donor center. Anyone who's oh, neg or oh, pause, we need you to donate now. Hands where I can see them.

她非常擅长她的工作。

She's very good at her job.

你觉得每个人都需要一个达娜

You think everyone needs a Dana

向达娜致敬。

chairs Dana.

在他们的生活中？

In their lives?

是的。我能理解这种幻想，因为很难想象在医院里有什么经历不是多方面令人沮丧的。所以听到这种描述感觉像是美妙的逃避现实。

Yeah. I can see the fantasy of it because it's hard to think of an experience with the hospital that isn't frustrating on multiple levels. So to hear this description sounds like wonderful escapism.

我的意思是，医生们其实也经历了无数挫折。剧集早期的一个矛盾点就是罗比医生和医院管理人员之间的冲突——那位主要管理人员下来施压说'你们的患者满意度需要提高'，而医生回应道'我们没有足够的护士，没有足够的床位'。所以这部剧确实在一定程度上反映了当今急诊室里真实存在的紧张关系。

I mean, it's also, you know, the doctors experience tons of frustrations. One of the tensions early on in the series is between doctor Robbie and the administrators or the main administrator of the hospital who's coming down and saying, you know, your patient satisfaction numbers need to go up. And he says, we don't have enough nurses. We don't have enough beds. So it definitely sort of grapples in that way with what appears to be real tensions in the emergency rooms of today.

而且我记得看过报道，急诊室专业人员看这部剧时都说'对，就是这样'。当然，除了偶尔有些戏剧化的处理。总的来说，这部剧具有很强的真实感。由于是在Max平台播出，它还能做到《急诊室的故事》永远做不到的事——展示急诊室里真正血淋淋的场面，还有大量脏话。是的。

And I think I have also read that emergency room professionals who watch this show are like, yeah, that's what it's like. I mean, you know, give or take a couple of dramatic moments here or there. Like, by all accounts, there's a great sense of verisimilitude to it. And because it's streamed on Max, you also can do what you were never able to do on ER, which is show some really gnarly stuff, which you would see in an emergency room, and then have people curse a lot. Yeah.

所以它是在传统医院 procedural 剧和当今精品电视剧之间找到了一种平衡。

So it's towing this line between sort of the hospital procedurals of old and like a more prestige TV of of the present day.

嗯嗯。

Mm-mm.

我也超爱这部剧，说实话，因为它简直就是'星二代'大集合。至少有三个星二代。好吧。

I also love it, I'll admit, because it is a Neppo Baby bonanza. There are at least three Neppo Babies. Okay.

这个我倒不知道。

I did not know this.

是的，没错。演员阵容里至少有三位星二代，而且我超爱星二代。我觉得

Yes. Yes. There are at least three Neppo Babies in the cast, and I I love a Nappo Baby. I feel

你也是专家啊，你应该说出来。

You're an expert too. You should say it.

我是。我是。我关注的是Nappo Baby话题，但我也对世界上的Nappo Babies怀有温柔的情感，既因为也尽管他们拥有的优势。但这算是最理想的情况了，因为只有一位家长是我们可能认为的名人。另外两位家长只是普通演员。

I am. I am. I am on the Nappo Baby beat, but also I feel so tenderly toward the Nappo Babies of the world because of and despite the advantages that they have had. But this is a best case scenario because in only one case is the parent what we might think of as famous. The other two parents are just working actors.

而你永远不会知道。你根本不会想到这些是这些家长的孩子。

And you would never you don't know. You would never know that these are the children of these parents.

嗯，除了可能最出名的两三位，这部剧里很多演员我从来没见过。所以是谁的父母？我的意思是，这些是谁的孩子？

Well, who I had never seen many of the actors in this cast other than maybe the top two or three. So who whose parents? I mean, whose kids are these?

是的。是三位医生。分别是泰勒·迪尔登、伊萨·布里奥内斯和菲奥娜·杜拉夫。可能父母最出名的是扮演玛尔的泰勒·迪尔登，剧中暗示这位住院医生是神经多样性者。

Yeah. It's three of the doctors. It's Taylor Dearden. It's Issa Briones, and it's Fiona Duraf. And probably the one with the most famous parent is Taylor Durden, who plays Mal, who is a resident, the show suggests is neurodiverse.

我超爱这位演员。我超爱这个角色。她是个天使。应该不惜一切代价保护她。她的共情能力非凡。

And I love this actress. I love this character. She is an angel. She should be protected at all costs. Like, empathy is extraordinary.

你还好吗？我只是发现佩欣斯还没见到她女儿，而且不会再发生这种事了。

You okay? I just find Patience hasn't seen her daughter, and it won't won't happen again.

永远不要为对病人产生感情而道歉。

Never apologize for feeling something for your patience.

结果没想到，惊喜的是，她是布莱恩·克兰斯顿的女儿。

And it turns out, surprise, she is the daughter of Bryan Cranston.

什么？

What?

没错。没错。内拉是布莱恩·克兰斯顿的女儿。

Yeah. Yeah. Nella is the daughter of Bryan Cranston.

她太棒了。她太棒了。那个角色在

She's great. She's great. That character is wonderful in

这部剧里非常出色。

the show.

另外两位女演员，伊萨·布里奥内斯和菲奥娜·杜拉夫，她们饰演年轻医生，分别是约翰·布里奥内斯和布拉德·杜拉夫的女儿，这两位父亲都是职业演员。

And then two of the other actresses, Issa Briones and Fiona Duraf, who play young doctors, are the daughters respectively of John John Briones and Brad Duroff, both of whom are working actors.

但但让我说——我们应该提一下查克的声音。你你写过你写过一些关于裙带关系宝宝的精彩报道

But but let me we should say The voice of Chuck. You you've written you've written some excellent profiles of nepo babies

我喜欢这个说法。

I love that.

去年。所以我觉得你是最适合问的人。你说这是裙带关系宝宝的最佳范例。我我什么什么是什么是糟糕的例子？是不是如果太容易看出他们的父母是谁？

Last year. And so I feel like you're, like, the good person to ask. You you say that this is, like, the best example of a nepo baby. I I What what is what's what's like a what's a bad example of it? Is it is the point that if you can tell too much who the parent is?

我想是的。糟糕的例子是，如果你不得不花时间思考，天啊。他们真的配得上这个机会吗？有没有更好的人选可以演这个角色？他们是不是只因为父母才得到这个角色？

I think it is. A bad example is if you have to spend a moment thinking, oh god. Did they really deserve this? Was there someone better that they could have cast in this role? Did they only get the role because of their parent?

那种情况就让人感觉不舒服。而我从未对这些演员有过这种想法，他们都很出色，真正融入了角色，是在真正地表演。

That's when it feels icky. And I've never had a thought with any of these actors who are wonderful and who really disappear into the roles, who are really acting.

杰森，你得看看这部剧的一些片段。

Jason, you gotta watch some of this.

我知道。

I know.

听起来确实如此。

It sounds like it.

我知道你的牌局已经安排好了。

I know your deck is stacked.

我知道。我是说，一天只有这么多时间。但是但是

I know. I mean, there's only so many hours in the day. But but

看起来你是个喜剧评论家，而这个节目并不好笑。一点

It looks like you are a comedy critic, and this show is not very funny. There's no

喜剧元素都没有。就是这样，再说一次，我喜欢这个节目，但它确实非常

comedy in it. It is so and again, I love the show, but it is incredibly

我我是说，那那意味着，就像，严肃的医院剧是我的放松方式。

I I mean, that that means that, like, the serious hospital show is my version of relief.

有有一件搞笑的事发生，其实并不好笑，但它是反复出现的桥段：罗比医生走进一个房间，里面正发生可怕的事，然后两分钟后说，‘看来你们都搞定了’，然后就走开了。这占了节目的30%。

There's there's one funny thing that happens, and it's not funny, but it's the recurring motif of doctor Robbie walking into a a room where something terrible is happening, and then two minutes later saying, it looks like you all have this, and then walking up. It's like 30% of the show.

好吧。好吧。还有老鼠出现。有老鼠。还有一个可怜的医学生，老是，比如，被体液喷到。

Okay. Okay. There are rats who show up. There are rats. And there is one poor medical student who keeps being, like, sprayed with body fluids.

我明白了，现在你让我有点不喜欢它了，因为我要说，作为一个曾因家人而在急诊室待过的人，我从喜剧场景中也学到一点，因为护士喜剧是一个类型，一个流行的类型，急诊室护士的幽默感是最黑暗的之一。他们非常搞笑。而且医院幽默有一个完整的市场。我想理念是，如果你每天看到这些可怕的事情，是的，你的工作是压抑情绪并保持严肃，那么你需要放松。

I see, now you're making me not like it because I'll say as somebody who has spent time in an ER with with with family members, I've one and one thing I've learned also from the comedy scene because nurse comedy is a genre, a popular genre, that ER nurses have some of the darkest senses of humor out there. They are hilarious. And there's a whole market of hospital humor. And I guess the idea being if you see these horrible things on a daily basis Yeah. Where your job is to repress your feelings and put on a straight face on it, that you need relief.

所以当他们完成对你的治疗后，要知道他们离开后，会在背后取笑你。

So when they go when they finish treating you as a patient, know that when they leave, they're making fun of you later on.

当然。

Sure.

你能带我们俩去下一个医院开放麦吗，不管那个男人在哪

Can you take both of us to the next hospital open mic, wherever that man

当然。

is Sure.

我会的，我会的。老圣文森特医院的地下室之类的。

I will. I will. The basement of old Saint Vincent's or whatever.

你可能得去游轮上。游轮上很流行这个。

You might have to go to a cruise. There's they're big on cruises.

好吧。我完全退出。行吧。我不喜欢游轮。好了。

Alright. Well, I'm totally out. Okay. I do not like cruises. Alright.

我们要换台了。是时候转到我们的下一个节目了。

We're gonna change the channel here. It's time to move on to our next show.

我是最年轻的男孩。把它从我脑子里移开。宏观数据 refinement。欢迎回来。请坐。

I'm the youngest boy. Move it from mo head. Macro data refinement. Welcome back. Please take a seat.

欧文，如果你不介意坐到后面去。高个子。

Irving, if you wouldn't mind being in back. Tall glass of water.

很明显，那是Apple TV《离职》中的米尔切克。某种程度上，我的人生一个小目标就是达到米尔切克在工作所有场景中那种冷静的呈现方式。这是《离职》的第二季。今年初冬播出，是一部科幻剧。带点偏执惊悚元素，讲的是一群记忆被手术分离的办公室职员的故事。

So obviously, that was milk check from Apple TV severance. And it's it's sort of like a minor goal in my life to achieve the calm presentation that Milk Check gives in all scenarios at work. This is the second season of Severance. It aired this past winter earlier this year, and it's a sci fi drama. It's a bit of a paranoid thriller about a a bunch of office workers whose memories have been surgically severed.

在这个剧集的世界里，你可以将时间分配在工作和个人生活之间。你本质上是一个身体里的两个不同人格，且彼此都没有对方生活的记忆。本季延续了第一季相当戏剧性的结局——以电视年计算那已是许久之前播出的了，是三年前的事了。而今年《离职》获得了艾美奖最多提名，是所有剧集中提名数最多的。

There's we live in a world in this show in which you can divide your time between your work and your personal lives. You're essentially two different people in the same body, and neither person has memory of the other person's life. This season follows up on what was a pretty dramatic season one finale, which aired so long ago in TV in TV years. It was three years ago. And Severance this year is the most nominations of any any show at the Emmys.

27项提名，对一部剧来说实在很多，让我觉得既兴奋又催眠，这种矛盾感很吸引我。杰森，你是实时追完第一季和第二季的吗？

27 nominations, which is so many for a show that is fascinating to me and how both exciting and sleepy it can be at the same time. Jason, did you watch season one and season two in real time?

是的。事实上，这是少数几部我一播出就立刻追看的剧之一。嗯。我甚至有点反感这点，因为它逼着你一本正经地使用那些原本只用来形容肚脐眼的术语——内我（innies）和外我（outies）。这么做真是有点丢人。

I did. In fact, this is one of the I think one of the few shows that I I don't I watch right when it comes out. Mhmm. And I I kind of resent it because it forces you with a straight face to use terms that you previously only used to describe your belly button, which are innies and outies. It's humiliating to have to do this.

我们都是成年人了。但这一季你不得不这么做，因为我认为最大的转变在于：第一季的核心戏剧冲突是关于内我们被这家阴险神秘的公司卢蒙（Lumen）压迫和控制，而第二季则有点转向内我们被自己的外我压迫和控制。嗯。这开辟了全新的隐喻空间，因为他们成了自我的囚徒。我喜爱这部剧是因为它在基调上极具野心。

We're we're grown ups. But but you sort of have to do it for this season because I think, the big shift is that the first season, the fundamental drama is about, the innies who are kind of oppressed and controlled by this sinister, mysterious company, Lumen. And that sort of shifts a bit in this the second season to the Indies being oppressed and controlled by their outies Mhmm. Which opens up all this new kind of metaphorical running room because they're kind of prisoners of themselves. I love this show because it has great ambition in terms of its tone.

它既非常非常严肃，又非常非常滑稽。事实上，我觉得它有时甚至游走在荒谬的边缘。但我觉得它之所以能避免这点，是因为演员阵容的强大。亚当·斯科特演得太棒了。还有那位叫什么来着？

It both is very, very serious and very, very silly. In fact, I think it kind of sometimes teeters on the ludicrous. And it it escapes that, I find, because of the strength of the cast. I think Adam Scott is amazing. And so is what's her name?

布丽特？布丽特·洛尔。布丽特·洛尔。我认为这一季尤其如此，因为他们扮演的两个角色变得越来越不同，表演中的微妙之处真的非常出色。而且，你知道，这一季的高潮是马克通过他的内我向外我发送信息，他的外我又回复给他的内我的一场会面。

Britt? Britt Lauer. Britt Lauer. And I think this season in particular, because they're playing two characters who are getting increasingly different, and it's a very their the subtlety in their performance is really remarkable. And, you know, this this season sort of culminates with a meeting between Mark sending messages from his Indy to his Audi, his Audi back to his Indy.

哦，嘿。库科尔小姐，告诉我你在下面喜欢上谁了？海伦娜·伊根。对吧？我觉得她的内我名字是海伦。

Oh, hey. Miss Cookall, tell me you you like someone down there? Helena Egan. Right? I think her Indy name's Helene.

再说一次，每当我看到这里，总觉得有点傻。嗯。但他们设法让它变成了一场势均力敌的公平较量。

Which, again, always when I watch it, it's it's a little bit silly. Mhmm. But it it they managed to make it a a sort of dripping fair fight.

是凯莉，实际上是凯莉。是我爱上的人，如果你在今晚需要某件事之前曾对我的生活表示过一点关心，你就会知道。

Kelly, actually. Kelly. It's person I'm in love with, which you'd know if you'd ever taken an interest in my life before tonight when you need something.

我喜欢它，但我觉得它让人精疲力尽。就像，我不在乎了。我再也不在乎卢蒙在搞什么鬼。我再也不在乎这些员工会发生什么。对我来说，谜团拖得太久了，而发生的事情又不够多。

I love it, and I find it exhausting. Like, I I do not care. I do not care anymore what Lumen is up to. I do not care anymore what will happen to these employees. It's just stretched out the mystery too long for me and not enough has happened.

但我却如此享受它。就像任何涉及山羊的剧集一样，那些神秘的山羊，我就是为了山羊而来的。我会看那些仅仅是员工福利集锦的节目，因为当八十年代表现好时，他们会得到这些额外福利，比如甜瓜吧、鸡蛋吧、音乐舞蹈体验、小指套玩具，我就爱看这些。在我内心深处，我热爱职场喜剧。我太爱职场喜剧了。

And yet I enjoy it so much. Like any episode that involves the goats, the mysterious goats, I am I'm here for the goats. I would watch the show that was just a super cut of employee perks because when the eighties do well, they get these perquisites like melon bar, egg bar, music dance experience, little finger trap toys, and I would just watch that. In my heart of hearts, I love a workplace comedy. I love a workplace comedy so hard.

而这部剧所有接近职场喜剧和荒诞的部分，我都非常喜欢。而那些更深层、更哲学的部分，我开始觉得有些令人疲惫。但山羊和设计，哦天哪。

And all the parts of this that verge on workplace comedy and absurdity, I love so much. And the parts that are deeper and more philosophical, I have come to find enervating. But goats and the design. Oh my god.

山羊。是的。

Goats. Yeah.

设计。就像是中世纪现代风格。是的。这一切的诡异感，拥有这些巨大的空间，却把所有工作站都挤在这个大空间的一个小角落里，低矮的天花板，灯光设计。太美了。

The design. It's like the mid century modern Yeah. Of it all, the creepiness of it all, of having these huge spaces and then crowding all of the workstations into one tiny part of this large space, the low ceilings, the lighting. It's beautiful.

确实很美。我的意思是，我喜欢它的制作设计。我喜欢配乐、表演，但大体上来说，也许除了某个表演之外。

It is it is beautiful. I mean, I love the production design. I love the the the score, the acting, but by and large, maybe give or take one performance.

哦。

Oh.

挑衅她。

Provocate her.

说说我在这里指的是谁。但是

Talk about who I'm talking about here. But the

你在说

Who are

谁？

you talking about?

你们在说谁？

Who are you talking about?

我没能get到帕特丽夏·阿奎特的表演。我觉得她是位出色的演员，演过很多好作品。但他们为这个角色设定的框架和她的表演...这季后面有一集主要聚焦她，我看了两次都睡着了。不过我看过她两部成功的作品。

I'm not in I'm not in on Patricia Arquette's performance. Oh. I think she's a wonderful actress who's been in many good things. But her the character that they have set up and her performance is not there's a one episode late in the season that's focused primarily on her, and I I think I fell asleep twice. Well, I watched her two successes.

是因为

Is that

她的问题，还是剧本问题？我觉得两者都有。其他人都很出色，特别是特雷梅尔·蒂尔曼——就是开头听到的那位饰演米尔奇克先生的演员，很多人今年夏天在《碟中谍》新电影里见过他，他简直太棒了。

her fault, is that the script? Well, I would say both. Right. I would say both. Everyone else is great, particularly Tramell Tillman, who you heard at the beginning, who plays mister Milchick and who many people saw this summer in the new Mission Impossible movie, he's incredible.

真是明星级的表现。

What a star.

但我同意你们俩的观点。我觉得剧中很多隐喻设定非常吸引人。让我始终觉得别扭的是——你刚才提到的那种神秘元素，那种迷失感。我这么说没有贬义，因为我认为《迷失》是过去几十年最伟大的剧集之一。但这部剧有部分情节就像：好吧...

But there is I agree with both of you. I I find much of the the the sort of the metaphorical conceit fascinating. I think the thing that I continue to trip on is is you were alluding to sort of the mystery element of it, the lostness of it. And I'm I use that not pejoratively because I think Lost is one of the great shows of the past many decades. But there is this part of it, is like, alright.

卢门公司到底在做什么？那些GOATs（最伟大员工）是什么？为什么公司管理层好像只有四个人？

What is Lumen doing? What are the GOATs? Who why are there only four seemingly four people working at this company, you know, in charge?

我理解这种感受，我也有同感。但后来某个瞬间我突然意识到：哦，这部剧的强项并不在于解谜。

I think I empathize, and I also felt that. But I also at some point, I realized, oh, this isn't the the the strength of it isn't the mystery.

好吧。

Okay.

就像亚历克西斯说的，这部剧每时每刻都藏着无数珍宝。克里斯托弗·沃肯和约翰·特托罗的关系刻画得极其精彩，扎克·切里展现出惊人的演技跨度，他和梅里特·韦弗的关系也非常迷人，剧中的语言更是华丽精妙得令人称奇。

Like, I think, you know, like Alexis is saying, like, there it has moment to moment all these incredible jewels. I mean, the the the relationship between Christopher Walken and John Taturo is beautifully realized. Zach Cherry is showing incredible range. That's an it's a fascinating relationship with Merritt Weaver. The language of it is incredibly ornate and interesting.

但根本上，我认为这部剧的强项并不在于情节。而且我们越来越被教导观看这类剧集的方式是试图解开情节的谜团。要知道，我们并非身处电视的黄金时代。对吧？正如我们的电视评论家指出的，我们正处于电视的中期时代。

But fundamentally, I think it like, it's not a show where plot is its strength. And increasingly, the way that we're taught to watch these shows is as in trying to solve a mystery of the plot. You know, we're not living in a golden age of TV. Right? We're as our TV critic pointed out, we're we're in a mid era of TV.

但如果你要论证我们确实处于黄金时代，如果你要勉强这么说，我认为你必须从这里开始，因为它试图做的事情是如此雄心勃勃。如果你观察真正伟大的艺术作品，情节固然重要，但绝不是大多数伟大艺术中最重要的方面。我认为在某个时刻，它变得对情节和谜团不那么感兴趣，而是更关注这些实际上相当黑暗的理念。我的意思是，在我看来，它变成了一部关于奴隶制的剧集。你知道，它探讨这些内我者是否是人？

But if you were to make a case that we are, if you were to try to strain it, I think you'd have to start here because it's what it's attempting to do is so ambitious. And if you look at really great art, plot is important, but it's not certainly not not what you would you would describe as the most important aspect of most great art. And I think at some point, it became less interested in in plot and the mystery of it than in some of these these ideas, which actually quite dark ideas. I mean, it's about it turns into a show, in my view, about slavery. It should you know, about whether these innies are are are they are they people?

他们值得被爱吗？他们值得生存吗？还是他们只是达到目的的手段？

Are they are they worthy of love? Are they worthy of life? Or are they just means to an end?

我也觉得这很有趣，因为这部剧是由一位名叫丹·埃里克森的先生创作的，但它是由本·斯蒂勒制作并执导了多集，我们曾认为他是一位伟大的喜剧演员，但现在我感觉他已经进入了这个阶段，这更像是他如今的生活，而不是继续做一名喜剧演员。

I think it's fascinating too because there's a show, it's sort of created by a gentleman named Dan Erickson, but it is produced, and many of the episodes are directed by someone who we used to consider one of the great comic actors, Ben Stiller, who has become someone now who I feel like has moved into this phase where this this sort of is is his life now as opposed to to being a comedic actor.

确实如此。你有点会忘记这一点。如果感觉不像糟糕的一天，偶尔会发生一些事情让你想起，哦，对了，背后有个喜剧演员。好吧。

It's true. And you I sort of you forget it. If it doesn't feel like a bad day, every once in a while, something will happen where you're like, oh, yeah. There's a comedian behind this. Okay.

我确实认为这是这部剧的魔力所在，它的基调，你知道，是偏执的。我会说，它与电视上任何其他节目都不同。

And I do think that's the magic trick of the show is that it the tone, you know, is is it's paranoid. It it's it's kind of unlike anything else on TV, I would say.

确实如此。它的风格独一无二。我的意思是，它是一部黑暗的剧集，在某种程度上也很阴郁，但它本可以更加黑暗和阴郁。其中有一些纯粹的荒诞主义时刻，真正起到了调剂作用，让它感觉与众不同。我愿意相信，虽然我不知道这是否属实，但我愿意相信它足够强大，即使中心谜团被解开，问题得到解答，如果我们突然了解了卢门工业的一切以及卢门工业在做什么，这部剧仍有足够的内容延续下去。

It really is. Like, the flavor is unlike anything else. And it could it I mean, it it is a dark show, and it is a dour show in its way, but it could be so much darker and so much more dour. And there are moments of pure absurdism that really leaven it and make it feel like nothing else. I would like to believe, and I don't know if this is true, but I would like to believe that it is strong enough that if the central mysteries were solved, if the questions were answered, if we suddenly knew everything about Lumen Industries and what Lumen Industries was doing, that there would still be enough for the show to persevere.

这只是一个外壳，也许是一个它不再真正需要的外壳。

That this is just a carapace and maybe a carapace that it doesn't really need anymore.

嗯，另一个元素你说得对。我认为它也变成了一部浪漫剧，在

Well, another element you're right. I think it also becomes like a romance in

其中 有三角恋。有一个

which There's love triangle. There's a

一个三角恋，最终他必须做出选择。

love triangle in which which he has to choose at the end.

因为他有两个自我，所以这就像一个四角恋。是的。没错。

Because he has two selves, so it's like a love quadrilateral. Yes. Right.

然后，你知道，

And and then, you know,

他他选择了，他没有。

he he chooses, he doesn't.

然后还有，就像，《虎豹小霸王》那样的，你知道，定格画面。

And then there's, like, this Butch Cassidy and the Sundance kid, you know, freeze frame.

本季最后一分钟在音乐选择和意象上都相当引人注目且令人难忘。是的。是的。天鹅绒迷雾回归了。

It is the the last minute of this season is quite striking and memorable, both in musical choice and imagery. Yes. Yes. The Velvet Fog returns.

他就像《毕业生》里他们上公交车之前那样。

He's like The Graduate before they get on the bus.

是的。我们要继续冲浪了。各位，我们继续看下一个节目吧。

Yes. We are going to keep surfing. Let's move on to our next show, gang.

我们当时在休息。金，你能不能别自拍了？你妹妹要进监狱了。

We were on a break. Kim, would you stop taking pictures of yourself? Your sister's going to jail.

你和谁一起坐船？他们是正经人吗？

Who did you meet with a boat? Are they decent people?

是的。他们拥有自己的游艇。他们很有钱。

Yeah. They own their own yacht. They're rich.

仅仅因为人们有钱，并不意味着他们就不粗俗。

Just because people are rich doesn't mean they're not trashy.

大多数有钱人都很粗俗。我不会说得那么绝对。

Most rich people are trashy. I wouldn't go that far.

那种口音只可能来自一部剧。我们已经把频道换回了HBO。我们在讨论《白莲花度假村》。这是迈克·怀特执导的这部剧的第三季，基本上讲的是富人们去某个地方的豪华度假村，全都属于白莲花连锁集团，然后有人死了。第一季在夏威夷。

That accents can only be from one show. We have changed the channel back to HBO. We're talking about the White Lotus. This is the third season of the Mike White drama in which essentially rich people go to a fancy resort somewhere all owned by the the White Lotus chain, and then someone dies. First one, Hawaii.

第二季在西西里岛。下一季将在法国，但这一季的背景设定在泰国。亚历克西斯，我不看这部剧。我从没想过开始看。我觉得我以后也不会看。

Second one, Sicily. Next season's gonna be in France, but this one was set in Thailand. Alexis, I don't watch this show. I've never wanted to start. I don't think I ever will.

你怎么...你在...哦天哪。在鸡尾酒派对上，你会谈论书籍吗？老天。

How do you what do you do at oh my god. At cocktail parties, do you talk about books? Jesus.

是啊。而且我找不到人能真正和我聊起来。

Yeah. And I can't find anyone to actually engage with me.

你怎么参与文化生活呢？我有

How do participate in the life of the culture? I have

我想我只会说，你看过《熊家餐馆》吗？那部剧很棒。哦天哪。是的。《熊家餐馆》。

I think I'd just say, have you seen the bear? That show's great. Oh my god. Yeah. The bear.

聊聊《白莲花度假村》吧。

Talk about the white lotus.

我太喜欢这种懂得自己定位的剧了。它明白电视的首要任务——虽然电视有很多功能，但我认为最重要的就是娱乐。而且它知道我们想看的就是一群俊男美女在绝美风景中痛苦挣扎。这简直就是财富盛宴与幸灾乐祸的完美结合。迈克·怀特和他的选角团队非常精明，他们请来了众多顶尖演员参演。所以这部剧还充满了悬疑。

I love a show that understands the assignment. I love a show that understands that the job of TV TV has many jobs, but I would say the really big one is to entertain And that knows that what we want to see are beautiful people in a gorgeous location being miserable. So it is all the Welt porn and all the Schadenfreude rolled into one. And because Mike White and his casting directors are very savvy, they get some of the greatest working actors to populate these shows. And so it has mystery.

它有刺激的情节，有香艳场面，让我不禁幻想如果我也能享受客房服务的生活会怎样。它应有尽有，完全满足了观众期待。

It has excitement. It has sex. It has me imagining what my life would be like if I too could afford room service. It has it all. It delivers.

除了财富盛宴和幸灾乐祸心理，当你和朋友聊这部剧时，你认为还有什么其他吸引力？

What why do you think other than wealth porn, schadenfreude, when you talk to your friends about this show? What is

你还想要更多？这些还不够吗？你还想要...

You want more? Do you want more than that? What do you

还没说完呢，继续说

not told yet. Tell

告诉我，你还想

me. What do

我需要你说服我，但要用帕克·波西那种腔调

I need you to sell me, but it the Parker Posey accent.

你想听的是...没错。而且你知道吗，你刚才说这只能指一部剧，但我认为其实可以有两部：《白莲花度假村》，还有一集特别癫狂的《南方魅力》。

What do you yes. And, you know, when you said this could only be one show, I think it could actually be two shows. One is the White Lotus, and one is an unusually demented episode of southern charm.

好吧

Okay.

但我觉得它包罗万象，根本不需要想得太复杂。它有美得令人窒息的外景，对奢华生活的生动呈现。嗯。它有出色的演员阵容。每一季都会在船上发生特别可怕又尴尬的事情。

But I think it has everything, and I don't think you need to think too hard. I think it has these incredibly beautiful locations, this evocation of luxury. Mhmm. I think it has wonderful actors. In every season, something really terrible and awkward happens on a boat.

所以我的意思是，你需要的远不止这些。

So if I mean, you need more than this.

我明白。但我确实觉得这一季收到了一些褒贬不一的评价，就像

I get that. But I do feel like this season got some mixed notices as

他们说的那样

they say

我认为是的。我觉得这一季有时确实像是在重复前几季的套路，这可能会让人觉得这部剧已经江郎才尽了。我喜欢把它比作佛教的轮回概念。对吧？

I think it did. I think this season did feel sometimes like it was repeating beats of the previous seasons, which you could say suggest a show that's out of ideas. I like to liken it to the Buddhist concept of Samsara. Right?

提醒我们一下

Remind us

你

You

知道那是什么吗？不知道。是啊。天啊。你是

know what that is again? Don't know. Yeah. God. You are

我知道。我只是想确认一下佛教的概念。我想确保我们在同一个频道上。

I do. I just wanna the Buddhist. I wanna be on the same page here.

你怎么知道。就是这个概念，你知道，我们处于一个死亡与重生的永恒循环中，我们总是要解决相同的紧张关系、相同的冲突、相同的欲望，这些正是我们人性的核心。所以我也认为电视剧确实从熟悉感中获益。我确实喜欢单元剧。我享受单元剧带来的舒适感。

How do you I know. Just this idea that, you know, we are we are in a constant cycle of death and rebirth, and that we are always going to work out the same tensions, the same conflicts, the same desires that that is at the core of our humanity. So and I also think that television does benefit somewhat from the familiar. I do enjoy a procedural. I do enjoy the comforts of a procedural.

我未必会说《白莲花度假村》是部让人舒适的剧，因为有很多令人尴尬的情节。比如这一季的半乱伦剧情，我简直要捂着眼睛才能看完。但我确实认为，看到一位处于巅峰状态的编剧导演做他最擅长的事——对迈克·怀特来说，就是展现人类最原始的本性——这其中自有其令人安心之处。

And I would not necessarily call White Lotus comfortable show because there is a lot of cringe. There was, like, semi incest plotline this season that I absolutely had to watch through my fingers. But I do think that there is something comforting in seeing a writer director at the top of his game do what he does, which has always been, if you're Mike White, to display humans at their most phenol.

大多数人的价值观都不怎么样。他们都是骗子。你们个个光鲜亮丽，却都是为了钱来的。所以你们必须高度警惕。明白吗？

Most people don't have good values. They're scammers. You're all gorgeous, and you come for money. So you have to be hyper vigilant. Okay?

你们必须时刻保持警惕。

You have to be on your guard.

我想问问你是否同意。我总觉得——有太多这类关于富人行为不端的节目，本意是让我们讨厌他们。但你知道，人们常说一个关于战争电影的理论：根本不存在反战电影。只要把战争搬上银幕，就不可避免地会显得 glamorous，会美化暴力。我逐渐觉得富人题材的电影电视剧也是如此，而这在我们的文化消费中占据不小比重。

Let me ask you if you agree. I I sort of have there's so many of these shows about rich people behaving badly that are intended for us to dislike them. And I there you know, there's a thing that people say or a theory about war movies, that there's no such thing as an anti war movie. That if you put war on screen, it's inevitably gonna come off glamorous, and it's gonna romanticize violence. And I've kind of grown to feel like that's true of rich people, movies, and television shows, of which it's this is not an insignificant part of our cultural diet.

最著名的就是《继承之战》。不管他们怎么努力让我们觉得极度富有看起来很糟糕——它看起来依然相当不错。

Succession, most famously. I don't care how much they make us want to do to to to think that being insanely wealthy looks bad. It still looks pretty good.

我倒想试试。我觉得这类节目的魅力在于那种即使你不说出口的感觉——我会做得更好。如果我在这么华丽的酒店、这么美丽的地方，我会举止得体。

I would like to try it. I think that the secret to these shows is the feeling that you have, even if you don't express it, which is I would do better. If I were in this gorgeous hotel in this gorgeous location, I would behave appropriately.

你知道，每个人都觉得自己会成为更好的富人。当然。你呢？

You know, everyone thinks they'll be a better rich person. Sure. Do you?

不。不。我...好吧。我觉得我会更好吗？不会。

No. No. I Alright. Do I do I think I'm gonna be better? No.

我觉得，你知道...你只会变得很糟糕？是啊。我会很好的。多么傲慢，多么可笑的想法。显然，被一切包围、所有事都有人打理确实具有腐蚀性。

I think, you know You're just gonna be gross? Yeah. I'm gonna be good. Like, what arrogance, what humorous to think. Like, clearly, there's something corrupting about being surrounded by all by having everything taken care of.

我凭什么会更好？我...我不觉得。我想我的意思是，我也确实...我承认。我看电视的根本目的不同。我喜欢感受糟糕的感觉。

Why why would I be any better? I I don't feel it. And I guess I mean, I also really I I confess. I do come to television for fundamentally different reasons. I like to feel bad.

我喜欢...我喜欢那些旨在颠覆、让我感到不适的节目。

I like to be I like shows that aim to disrupt and and make me feel uncomfortable.

这就解释得通了。

This explains so much.

我写过一本关于恐怖电影的书。这就是我的本质。有趣的是，《白莲花度假村》让我很享受，因为它令人不适却又充满关注度。虽然这季我没看，但到处都看到山姆·洛克威尔那段独白。那是今年的事。

I wrote a book on horror films. This is is who I am. The it's funny because The White Lotus, I enjoyed because it is uncomfortable and there is attention. And although I didn't see this season, I did see that monologue by Sam Rockwell everywhere. That was this year.

对吧？嗯。这确实让我非常感兴趣，迈克·怀特放手去做了。这些部分才让人兴奋。真的很兴奋。

Right? Mhmm. The which did make me very interested, and he goes for it, Mike White. And and and those are the parts that are exciting. Exciting.

太有趣了，因为我只想通过电视获得放松感，而你却想要相反的效果。但等等，杰森，既然你提到这个，我必须知道。对啊。对啊。你会用你的几十亿买什么最恶心的东西？

This is so funny because all I want out of TV is to feel okay, and you want the opposite. But wait, Jason, because you have introduced this, I have to know. Yeah. Yeah. What is the most disgusting thing that you would buy with your billions?

什么样的浪费最令人作呕、最滥用金钱

What is the most, like, disgusting, abusive waste of money

他会买下一个喜剧俱乐部。

He would buy a comedy club.

看看如果

See if

我会买一个喜剧

I would buy a comic

给护士们。

For nurses.

我会用那笔钱买一个护士主题喜剧俱乐部，然后付钱让观众笑我的笑话。我会上台讲护士段子

I would buy a nursing comedy club with that and and I would pay the audience to laugh at my jokes. I would go on stage and tell nursing jokes

关于它。爸爸笑话。全是爸爸笑话。一直都是。

about it. Dad jokes. All dad jokes. All the time.

是的。一直都是。一直都是。不。我曾经去过一个，嗯，豪华的，你知道，豪华酒店。

Yes. All the time. All the time. The no. I once I've been to a, like, fancy, you know, fancy hotel before.

那里有些让人堕落的特权。我去过一个度假村，在那里任何地方，只要你想要一碗爆米花，它就会出现。我想不出比这更好的事了，想象一下在你生活中的任何时候，你只要想“我觉得…”你知道谁分享过这个吗？

And there are perks there that are corrupting. And I've I've been to one where was it like a resort where at any point in the resort, if you asked for a bowl of popcorn, it would appear. And I can't think of anything bet like, any imagine in your life, at any time in your life, you just think I feel like you know who shared this?

就像一个爆米花礼宾服务。

Like a popcorn concierge.

是的。洛恩·迈克尔斯。如果你…我相信你读过洛恩·迈克尔斯的简介。他总是有一碗爆米花，我懂了。

Yeah. Lorne Michaels. If you if you ever I'm sure you've read profiles of Lorne Michaels. He always has a bowl of popcorn, and I get it.

好了。我们要短暂休息一下。回来后，我们会讨论一些正经的喜剧。

Alright. We are gonna take a quick break. And when we come back, we'll talk about some proper comedies.

嗨。我是《纽约时报烹饪》的梅丽莎·克拉克。谁不喜欢简单的一锅餐呢？就拿我的羊乳酪北非蛋食谱来说吧。在一个单柄煎锅里，你能得到完美烹制的鸡蛋， nestled 在明亮芬芳的番茄酱中，周围是融化的奶油状羊乳酪块。

Hi. This is Melissa Clark from New York Times Cooking. Who doesn't love a simple one pan meal? Take my shakshuka with feta recipe for instance. In a single skillet, you get perfectly cooked eggs nestled in a bright and fragrant tomato sauce surrounded by creamy nuggets of melted feta.

这是一道美味的早餐，但作为晚餐也同样出色，而且不会给你留下很多清理工作。你可以在 nytcooking.com 找到这个食谱和我们所有粉丝最爱的一锅食谱。NYT Cooking 为你提供任何场合的食谱、建议和灵感。

It's a delicious breakfast, but it's just as good for dinner, and it won't leave you with a lot of cleanup. You can find this recipe and all of our fan favorite one pan recipes at nytcooking.com. NYT Cooking has you covered with recipes, advice, and inspiration for any occasion.

欢迎回来。这是周日特别节目。我是吉尔伯特·克鲁兹，和杰森·津纳曼与亚历克西斯·索洛斯基在一起。在这个艾美奖之日，我们正在讨论过去一年中我们最喜欢的一些电视节目。让我们进入下一个节目，《换台》，现在开始。

Welcome back. This is a Sunday special. I'm Gilbert Cruz, and I'm here with Jason Zinnerman and Alexis Solosky. On this Emmys day, we're talking about some of our favorite TV from the past year. Let us go to our next show, Channel Change, now.

我忍不住想知道。那是我做的吗？

I couldn't help but wonder. Did I do that?

你开始打包了吗？哦，还没。但我会的。需要帮忙吗？免费的。

You start packing yet? Oh, no. But I will. You want some help? Free.

谁帮忙？你？就你一个人？得了吧。嗯，因为你讨厌打包。

From who? You? Just from me? Come on. Well, because you hate packing.

人人都讨厌打包，乔尔。但你知道，我们总会为所爱之人做自己讨厌的事。天啊。你是在对我温柔吗？

Everybody hates packing, Joel. But, you know, we do the things that we hate for the ones we love. Oh my gosh. Are you being tender with me?

是的。我

Yes. I

我是说，我喜欢这样。所以

mean, I like it. So

这是《某人某地》，已经播出了第三季也是最终季。这部剧讲述由布里奇特·埃弗里特饰演的女子搬回中西部家乡后，结识了一群朋友，一群她融入其中的局外人。这是一部很温暖的剧集。你们俩都喜欢这部。

this is Somebody Somewhere, which aired its third and final season. This is about a woman played by Bridget Everett who moves back to her Midwestern hometown and finds a bunch of friends, bunch of outsiders that she falls in with. And it's sort of like a a warm show. Both of you like this.

我超爱这部剧。这是一部先让你心碎，再用创可贴和亲吻将其修复的剧。光是刚才播放的那一小段就让我百感交集。我现在只想看人们彼此善待、学习逐步成长变好的剧集。这就是我的最爱，而这部剧做得非常出色。

I love this show. This is a show that breaks my heart and then puts it back together with a Band Aid and a kiss. I felt so many feelings just in that little clip that you played. All I want are shows about people being kind to each other and learning to grow and be better in incremental ways. Like, this is what I love, and this does it so well.

如果你曾看过布里奇特·埃弗里特的舞台表演，她是一位另类卡巴莱表演者。充满活力、令人兴奋、华丽夺目、极致夸张。

And if you have ever seen Bridget Everett on stage, she is an alt cabaret performer. She is dynamic. She is exciting. She is sumptuous. She is over the top.

而她将所有那种过度的夸张感收敛起来，演绎了一个非常真实的角色。

And all of that too muchness and over the topness, she has restrained into playing a very real character.

没错。我想不出还有哪部半小时的喜剧或其他类型剧集比这部剧更让我落泪。现在我不确定。我一直在想，为什么看这部剧时总是哭？但我有几个推测。

Yeah. I mean, I can't think of a half hour show, comedy or otherwise, that's made me cry more than the show. Now I don't know. And and it's something I thought, why am I always crying at this show? But I think there's a I have a couple of theories.

其一是音乐的运用。音乐是最具情感表现力的艺术形式。正如亚历克西斯指出的，布里奇特·埃弗里特是一位歌手，他们策略性地运用了她这种非凡的天赋。

One is the the use of music. Music is the most emotional of art forms. And as Alexis points out, you know, Bridget Everett is a singer, and they strategically use she has this incredible gift.

一杯咖啡或星际旅行。我会永远珍惜，然后再多要一些。

A cup of coffee or a trip to the star. I'll take forever, and then I'll take some more.

不仅她如此，剧中还有几首精心安排的歌曲同样令人心碎。其次，我认为太多娱乐作品都是关于对抗外星人、医生拯救生命或亿万富翁争斗的高风险故事。能看到对中西部普通工人阶级试图建立联系的细致刻画，几乎感觉是一种颠覆。

And not just her, but there's a couple other, you know, sort of strategic songs in the show which are heartbreaking. Second of all, I think so much of entertainment is these high stakes stories about fighting aliens or, you know, doctors saving lives or billionaires fighting people. It almost feels radical to see a carefully observed portrait of ordinary people, working class people in the Midwest trying to make connections.

因为，哦，你看我的眼神，我无法解释，但我知道这就是爱。

Because, oh, the way you look at me, I can't explain it, but I know it's love.

有趣的是，这部剧的讽刺之处在于它呈现了米勒式的写实风格，却是由一群纽约 downtown 戏剧人创作的。布里奇特·埃弗里特和杰夫·希勒值得高度赞誉，他们展现了剧中核心的友谊关系。但该剧的编剧和创作者曾运营名为'辩论社'的外百老汇剧团，专门推出过许多精品剧目。

And it's funny. It's a fun it's a irony of the show that it's this millerichen portrait because it's made by all these downtown New York theater people. It's and Bridget Everett and Jeff Hiller get a lot of credit as they should. They're the kind of friendship that's at the core of this show. But the the writers and creators of the show ran a Off Broadway theater company called Debate Society that really put on these jewel like productions.

他们很多作品都以中西部为背景。我会形容这些作品非常完整且细节丰富，每个选择都经过深思熟虑，每个角色都有精心设计的背景故事，充满生活气息。

And they, you know, they they were also a lot of them were set in the Midwest. They and and what they I would describe them as being very fully realized and very detailed. So every choice felt like an incredible amount of thought came into it. Every character felt like they had a considered backstory. It felt very lived in.

同时这些剧作带点林奇式风格。而他们在这里去除了林奇元素，注入了以布里奇特·埃弗里特含蓄表演为锚点的现实主义。这种结合具有真正的力量——尤其当这些传奇角色展现脆弱面时总是动人，就像《教父》结尾马龙·白兰度的温柔令人落泪。

At the same time, there was something a little Lynchian about these shows. And so what they did here is they took out the kind of Lynchian aspect to it and put in this this realism anchored by this as Alexis Pornsalli, this understated performance by Bridgette Everett. And and there's a a real power in this marriage. Particularly, I I think one thing that's always emotional is when these larger than life characters go small. You know, when you see the tenderness of, you know, Marlon Brando and the godfather at the end at the end of the godfather, that makes our people cry.

布里奇特的表演也有类似特质：她本是 powerhouse 级的表演者，却不断以非常真实的方式收敛锋芒。这与我看她表演卡巴莱秀时的感受截然不同——那时她如同超级英雄，但剧中她以令人心碎的方式颠覆了这种印象。

When and there's something similar about Bridgette Evers' performance, that she's this powerhouse, but she's constantly making herself small in a way that that is very recognizable. And it's really not what you feel, at least what I feel. When I see Bridget Everett doing cabaret show, you think this is this sort of superhero like person. But she really is playing against it in in a quite heartbreaking way.

这部剧如此独特，观察入微。直到今年才获得艾美奖认可，终于获得两项提名：杰夫·希勒的非凡表演奖，以及实至名归的最佳编剧奖。剧本确实出色，看到它受认可让我非常欣慰。

It's so particular. It's so beautifully observed. It has been ignored by the Emmys until now. And this year, finally, it has two nominations, one from Jeff Hiller, who is extraordinary, And then one, I think, really, really deserved for outstanding writing. Because the writing really is outstanding, and I'm so pleased to see it recognized.

我认为2010年代曾有过这样的时刻：制片公司和流媒体平台愿意资助这类小而美的特色喜剧。虽然我们现在偏离了那个方向，但《某处某人》能存在并获续订三季，真是珍贵的礼物，令人欣喜。

But I think there was a moment in the twenty tens where studios, network streamers were putting their money a little bit behind these sort of smaller voice y comedies that felt really lovely and really particular, and we'd moved away from that. And the fact that Somebody Somewhere was allowed to exist, that was given three seasons, what a gift. What a joy.

是的。是的。是的。

Yep. Yep. Yep.

嗯，听音乐、杰森，还有看电视和看电影，这些真的是我现在唯一能哭出来的方式了。所以我觉得我需要看点什么。我们要换台了。

Well, listening to music, Jason, and watching TV and watching movies are really the only way that I can cry these days. So I think I need to watch somebody somewhere. We are gonna change the channel.

你用想象力的钥匙打开这扇门。你若挑战王者，最好别失手。

You unlock this door with the key of imagination. You come at the king, you best not miss.

你知道， prestige films（ prestige 电影）和票房大片，这两者并不互斥。不，我们可以兼顾，我们也会兼顾。这就是为什么我很兴奋地宣布，我们正在加速推进

You know, prestige films and box office hits, those are not mutually exclusive. No. We can do both and we will do both. And that is why I'm excited to announce that we are fast tracking

一部Kool Aid电影。

a Kool Aid movie.

哦，是的。这就是那部剧。这是我们三个都看过的剧。是Apple TV+的剧集。由塞斯·罗根联合创作并主演。

Oh, yeah. This is the studio. This is a show that all three of us watched. It's an Apple TV plus show. It's co created by and it stars Seth Rogen.

他在剧中扮演一家名为Continental的好莱坞制片厂的高管，在剧集开始时，他的导师，也就是前制片厂主管被罢免，他因此被提升为制片厂主管。这是一部好莱坞讽刺剧。显然，这是好莱坞喜欢做的事情。它喜欢自嘲，无论是在像《大玩家》——罗伯特·奥特曼的电影——那样非常黑暗的作品中，还是像这部剧这样轻松一些的作品中。我们觉得这部剧怎么样？

And he plays an executive at a at a Hollywood studio named Continental, who at the beginning of the series is elevated to studio chief when his mentor, the former studio chief, is is deposed. And this is a Hollywood satire. Obviously, something that Hollywood loves to do. It loves to make fun of itself, whether it's in something really dark like the Player, the Robert Altman movie, or or lighter things like this one. What did we think of this show?

说实话，我花了一点时间才进入状态，因为塞斯·罗根扮演的是一个非常‘塞斯·罗根式’的角色。他饰演的制片厂高管马特·雷米克极其傻气。他太傻了。即使在喜剧宇宙、那种夸张的现实宇宙里，我也很难想象一个如此愚蠢、如此脱节的人能爬到现在这么高的位置。

I'll be honest. It took a minute for me because Seth Rogen is playing a very Seth Rogen character. His studio executive Matt Remick is extremely doofy. He is so doofy. And it was hard for me even in the comedy universe, the heightened reality universe, to imagine that someone like this stupid and this out of touch would have risen this high.

而且我也不会说我对制片厂高管有什么特别好的看法，但是呢。所以我一直渴望能有一个稍微聪明一点、稍微精明一点的角色，但仍然会犯这些错误。但当时我正住在洛杉矶我姐姐家，我的夜视能力不太好。结果就是，我撞穿了她家的纱门。而我当时唯一能想到说的话就是，‘哦，好吧’。

And I wouldn't say I'm someone with like a glowing opinion of studio executives and yet. So I kept longing for someone who was just a little smarter, a little savvier, who would still make these mistakes. But I was staying with my sister in LA and I have compromised night vision. And as such, I walked through her screen door. And the only thing I could think of to say was, oh, yeah.

所以它还是打动了我。它，它，而且到了最后几集，金球奖那几集，完美，它真的打动了我。我完全投入进去了。我很喜欢它。

So it it got me. It it and by by the final episodes, the Golden Globe episodes, perfect, it, like, got me. I was all in. I loved it.

我的意思是，我非常喜欢这种类型。拉里·桑德斯可能是我有史以来最喜欢的电视节目。但这个不是那样的。如果你期待的是那种尖刻的抨击，或者说是非常现实的作品，那么这部剧其实更加温暖人心。我觉得艾美奖会庆祝一部真正的喜剧是件好事。

I mean, I I love the genre. I mean, Larry Sanders is probably my favorite television show of all time. This is not that. If you're expecting, like, a scathing takedown of or or one one deeply realistic for that matter, this this this is much more warm hearted. I I think it's good that the Emmys are gonna, like, celebrate an actual comedy.

这是

This is

哦哦，《熊》？我的意思是，我知道它是

Oh oh, the bear? The I mean, I know it's

我看这部剧笑的次数比看《熊》时多。

The laughed more then than I did at the bear.

是啊。《熊》的获奖比例。他们好像是，什么？零项...

Yeah. Permitted ratio on the bear. They were, like, what? Zero for

没错。这并不好。我的意思是，这部剧关于金球奖的那一集，我觉得非常搞笑，而且制作精良。它并不是那种你以前都见过的套路。同时，我认为它有一个很棒的洞察和创新，那就是我们生活在一个好莱坞失去了它的魔力和自信的时代。

Exactly. Which is not good. It's not good for the, I mean, the Golden Globes episode of this of this of the studio, I thought was was hilarious and was, very well crafted. It it's not a show where you you've seen everything it does has done before. At the same time, I think it has one, great insight and innovation, which is that we're living in this time where, you know, Hollywood is has lost its mojo, has lost its swagger.

更广泛地说，那些知名机构的老板们，他们的威望似乎也下降了一点。无意冒犯，吉尔伯特，作为一家知名机构的老板。

And bosses more generally of prestige institutions seem like the the stature has has fallen a little bit. No offense, Gilbert, as as a boss of a prestige institution.

一个小写的老板，

A boss with a small b,

所以没关系。

so it's fine.

是的。是的。好吧。我认为这部剧的创作者们看到了这是一个机会。因为如果你想到一个好莱坞大亨，你会想到什么？

Yes. Yes. Okay. And I think what the may the people who create, you know, created the studio, they saw this as an opportunity. Because if you think of, like, a Hollywood mogul, what do you think of?

比如，一个叼着雪茄的人？

Like, a cigar chomping person?

罗伯特·埃文斯。

Robert Evans.

罗伯特·埃文斯。一个令人敬畏的人，一个根据底线做决定的人，而不是因为他们意识到——哦，你其实可以塑造一个好莱坞大亨，他不仅像个弱者，还是个可怜又讨喜的弱者。你可以把他塑造成像塞斯·罗根那样的形象，这是我以前从未见过的。你知道吗？而且我认为，在最具《拉里·桑德斯秀》风格的时刻，他是这样一个渴望认可的人，他进入这一行是为了艺术，因为他热爱那些伟大的电影，然后他突然发现自己身处这个衰落的行业，而它实际上是由科技主导的。

Robert Evans. Someone who's intimidating, someone who's making decisions because of the bottom line, not because what what they realize is that, oh, you could actually make a Hollywood mogul who's not only like a underdog, but a pathetic, likable underdog. You can make him like a Seth Rogen figure, which I had never seen before. You know? And I think it's, you know, he he in its most Larry Sanders moments, he's this guy who's desperate for validation, who got into this for, the art because he loved these great movies, and then he suddenly finds himself in this diminished business where, it's really run by tech.

而这很现实。我和很多在好莱坞或演艺界的人聊过，他们都有同样的故事。所以从这个意义上说，我认为它实际上非常贴合时宜。

And that is realistic. I talked to a lot of people in Hollywood or in show business who have that same story. So in that sense, I think it's actually quite topical.

没有哪个孩子小时候在电影院仰望着那块美丽的大屏幕时会想，有一天我会为酷爱饮料开绿灯。没有人会这么想。

No one as a child at the movie staring up at that big beautiful screen thinks one day I will green light Kool Aid. No one.

除了马丁·斯科塞斯，他在第一集中做了众多精彩客串之一，这一季还有很多其他人客串。而他，你知道，他被迫将自己关于琼斯镇大屠杀的三小时《花月杀手》式项目变成一部酷爱饮料电影，当你仔细想想，这当然既恶心又同时非常搞笑。他还因那个客串获得了艾美奖提名。这部剧的一大乐趣就是里面所有其他的客串。

Except for Marty Scorsese, who in the first episode makes one of many great cameos that happens by many people over the course of this season. And he, you know, he's forced to turn his three hour Killers of the Flower Moon type project about the Jonestown massacre into a Kool Aid movie, which when you think about it, of course, is both gross and yet hilarious at the same time. And he was nominated for an Emmy for that cameo. One of the great joys of this is all the other cameos that you have in it.

佐伊·克拉维茨、奥利维亚·王尔德做了非常出色的自嘲表演

Zoe Kravitz, Olivia Wilde doing amazing self

在最后几集。朗·霍华德也

episodes at the end. Ron Howard doing

泰德·萨兰多斯，我觉得，是在自嘲地

Ted Sarandos, I thought, sending himself up with

太搞笑了。是的。安东尼·麦凯。所有这些人都在调侃自己。这太棒了。

hilarious. Yeah. Anthony Mackie. All of these people just skewering themselves. It's beautiful.

是的。而且这是赛斯·罗根、埃文·戈德堡以及他身边所有人过去都做得不错的事情。我的意思是，他们拍过很多电影，其中演员和他们真实的好莱坞朋友之间的界限非常模糊。在季末有一段戴夫·弗兰科的精彩客串，我光是看他的戏份就愿意重看一遍。我觉得这部剧太搞笑了。

Yeah. And it's something that, you know, Seth Rogen and Evan Goldberg and all the people around him have done well in the past. I mean, they've made many movies in which sort of the line between, you know, actors and their real Hollywood friends are very fuzzy. There's an incredible Dave Franco run-in the near the end of the season that I would I would watch again just to see his scenes. I found the show hilarious.

我其实愿意把整季都重看一遍，而且感觉赛斯·罗根的笑声某种程度上推动了这个角色的傻气。我不知道还有谁能像这样演绎这个角色，这一切都体现在他那种标志性的笑声里。我认为他在这部剧里的表现真的很出色。

I actually would watch the entire season again, and it also feels like there's something about Seth Rogen's laugh that sort of drives the doofiness of this character. I didn't know that anyone else could play this character in the way that it is played here, and it all rests in his sort of type laugh. I think he's really good in this performance.

他正迎来一个美好的时刻，我们的赛斯。

He's he's having a beautiful moment, our Seth.

我能不能说说我认为在片场还有谁正迎来美好时刻？萨尔·萨珀斯坦。

Can I can I say who I also think is having a beautiful moment on the studio? Sal Saperstein.

是的。

Yes.

这个角色由艾克·巴里霍尔特饰演，他可能是我今年到目前为止最喜欢的角色。

The character played by Ike Barrett Holt, who might be my favorite character of the entire year so far.

成交。这家伙要假装有个死去的表弟，就为了给朗·霍华德

Deal. The man is gonna pretend to have a dead cousin to give Ron Howard

递个纸条，你应该

a note that you should

你是被这个情况的道德性困扰了吗？是这么回事吗？哦，你是

be Are you stricken by the morality of this situation? Is that what's happening? Oh, you're

他太棒了。那个...不。他和凯瑟琳·哈恩

He is great. The the no. Him and and and Catherine Hahn

嗯。

Mhmm.

是一对绝佳搭档。

Are a fantastic duo.

好吧。巴里，这口水都飞溅了。天啊。你到底怎么回事？为什么就不能直接把鼻子给他？

Okay. Barry, the The saliva is flying. God. What is wrong with you? Why can't you just give him the nose?

好了。现在看看你自己。你看起来就像我抓到儿子在我iPhone上看黄片时的样子。

Okay. Now look at you. You look just like my son did when I caught him watching porn on my iPhone.

还有，没错，那个大家都要感谢萨尔·萨珀斯坦和金球奖的经典梗。所以里面有很多台词，比如拉米·拉米在称赞佐伊·克拉维茨时，他说，你知道，这很好。不仅仅是多元化意义上的好。是真的好。这也很符合当下的潮流。有

And, and, yeah, the the the running joke of everyone thanking Sal Saperstein and the Golden Globes. So there's a bunch of lines in there that were when, Rami Rami is complimenting Zoe Kravitz, and he she he says, you know, it's it's good. It's not just diversity good. It's good. That that's, like, also a very of the moment There's

一些很犀利的内容在里面。

some cutting stuff in there.

确实很犀利。这部剧一个有趣的地方在于它拍摄得多么精美，我不知道这是好是坏。我想知道你们怎么看。我的意思是，如果它采用更粗粝的美学风格，会更好还是更差？我觉得这确实增强了它对好莱坞那种深情致敬的感觉。

That's some cutting stuff. It's one of the curious interesting things about this show is how, beautifully it's shot, which I don't know if is is good or bad. I wonder what you guys think about that. I mean, if it had a grittier, aesthetic, would that make it better or worse? I think what it it does increase the sort of loving tribute love tribute to Hollywood aspect of it.

这绝对让你注意到摄影工作的所谓‘牛逼之处’。我是说，这些旋转的手持镜头，那些跟踪镜头，这些东西被放在了最前面。就像，你应该注意到它。对吧。这让它产生了一种奇怪的对比感。

It makes it definitely draws your attention to the sort of, the quote awesomeness of the camerawork. I mean, these swirling handheld cameras, the tracking shots, like, that stuff is forefronted. Like, you're supposed to notice it. Right. And it makes it feel like a weird contrast.

就像，你有一群热爱电影的人，却在做着最愚蠢的事情，但同时看看这里正在发生的电影制作之美。我其实觉得这两者是相辅相成的。

Like, you you have these people who love movies who are doing the stupidest things possible, but yet look at the beauty of the filmmaking that is happening here. I actually think the two work in tandem.

我是个视觉动物。我就是喜欢看些漂亮的东西。

I'm a Siberite. I just I like something pretty to look at.

不，我也一样。我我喜欢它。而且正如你所说，我认为有一种方式可以合理化它为何与素材契合。但我很好奇想知道，它确实会让我出戏。

No. I do too. I I like it. And I think it as you said, I think there's a way to kind of rationalize why it makes sense with the material. But I'd be curious to to know what what it like, it does draw me out of it.

是的。那些你沉浸在这个世界中的时刻，它不断在说，嘿。看看这个华丽的镜头。嗯。重点是它试图表达，嘿。

Yeah. The moments where they where they kind of you're immersed in this world, they it keeps saying, hey. Look at this gorgeous shot. Mhmm. Is the point is it trying to say, hey.

看。好莱坞依然能施展这种魔法。

Look. Hollywood can still pull off this magic.

对我来说，这正是重点之一。我认为电影制作可以很美，即使是在一部关于一群傻瓜拍摄烂恐怖片的剧集中。好了，让我们再次换台，转到一部让我深感不适的节目。

To me, that is part of the point. I think it is filmmaking can be beautiful even in a show about a bunch of doofuses, you know, making bad horror movies. Alright. Let us change the channel one more time into a show that made me deeply uncomfortable.

Marsha, Marsha, Marsha。咚。你的鼓怎么了，小话痨？

Marsha, Marsha, Marsha. Doh. What's your drum, babbles?

听着。你们即将目睹的事情会显得很奇怪，这就是为什么我在邀请任何真正的飞行员参与之前，先自己尝试。但如果人格转移能在狗身上奏效，那么也许，只是也许，它也能在人类身上起作用。

Look. What you're about to witness is going to seem weird, which is why I'm putting myself through it before I invite any real pilots to participate. But if a personality transfer can work on a dog, then maybe, just maybe, it could work on a human being.

好吧。这大概是那一集里第十五疯狂的事情了。那句台词就像是

Okay. That's like the fifteenth craziest thing in that episode. That that line is like

我听到内森·菲尔德的声音就不可能不联想到《开心汉堡店》的Tina配音。但我们来到了内森·菲尔德那部几乎无法描述的节目。这部剧播出了第二季，今年获得两项艾美奖提名，它某种程度上是建立、创造一些情境，让你可以quote为现实生活中的时刻进行排练。在第二季中——再次说明，内森·菲尔德是位喜剧演员——他痴迷于一个想法：某些空难发生的原因是因为飞行员沟通中产生了一种动态，导致副驾驶无法及时化解他们察觉到的紧急情况。

It's impossible for me to hear Nathan Fielder's voice without the gift Tina from Bob's Burger. But we've arrived at at Nathan Fielder's nearly impossible to describe show. This show, which aired its second season and has two Emmy nominations this year, sort of sets up, creates scenarios where you could quote rehearse for moments in real life. In the second season and again, Nathan Fielder is a comedian. He becomes obsessed with the idea that the reason that some plane crashes happen is because there's a dynamic that happens in pilot communication that that leads to the copilot not being able to sort of stave off emergencies that they see.

Jason，这节目太怪了。我差点在从科罗拉多回来的飞机上看它。开头两分钟我就决定关掉。明智。你怎么描述这节目？

Jason, this is a weird show. I almost watched it on a plane ride back from Colorado. I decided in the first two minutes to turn it off. Wise. How do you describe this show?

你怎么描述内森·菲尔德？

How do you describe Nathan Fielder?

起初，我认为这部剧是一次巨大的成功。我太爱这部剧了。而且我觉得它很有趣。这是一部很难描述的剧，但我认为它本质上讲述的是一个社交尴尬、情感迟钝的控制狂试图成为一个正常人的故事。这就是他所有作品的核心主题。

At first, I think this this show's a triumph. I love this show. And I think it's it's interesting. It is a hard show to describe, but I think it's actually fundamentally about, like, a socially awkward, emotionally clueless control freak trying to be a normal person. That's what all his work is kind of about.

而创造这些排练的方法就是实现这一目标的手段。他在剧中有一个重要理论：飞行员之间的沟通失误是导致飞机失事的原因。如果我们能解决这个问题，就能解决这个重大难题。他花了很大功夫让你相信他是对的。相比他以往那些总是模糊现实与虚构界限的作品，这部剧真的让你质疑什么是真实的，什么不是。

And the the method of creating these rehearsals is a means to that end. You know, he has this this big theory in the show that miscommunication among pilots is screw is is the cause of plane crashes. And if we could fix that, then we could solve this major problem. And he goes a long way to convincing you he's right. More than any of his previous work, which always kind of blurs the line between reality and fiction, this one really makes you question what is real, what is not.

在思考这部剧与他之前所有作品的共同点时，飞行是他美学中的重要组成部分。《内森为你》的最后一个镜头是无人机向上飞向天空的画面。《诅咒》的结尾有一个可怕的悬浮场景，他猛烈地飘向太空。而这部剧的结尾，内森·菲尔德驾驶了一架波音737客机。剧中有一个展示者内森·菲尔德的元素，他试图创造一种敬畏感，就像《魔法坏女巫》中她飞行时给观众带来的冲击一样，他试图营造这种令人迷失方向的奇妙感。

And in thinking of, like, what this has in common with all his previous work, flight is a big part of his aesthetic. At the end of Nathan for You, the last image is this drone shot flying up into the into the sky. At the end of the curse, there's this horrifying levitation where he violently floats up into space. And the end of this show, Nathan Fielder flies a Boeing seven thirty seven passenger plane. And there's an element of Nathan Fielder of the showman of him that he's trying to create a sense of awe, in the way that, like, in wicked when she flies, the impact it has on the audience is this it's trying to create this sort of disorienting sense of wonder.

在第三集中，他重现了萨利机长的人生，其中还包括一段疯狂的戏剧性飞行——他把自己变成了婴儿萨伦伯格，还剃光了体毛。然后你看到他穿着尿布走出来，突然又看到一个巨大的婴儿床，那一刻你完全不知道自己在看什么。你会想：等等。你的大脑需要重新理解，然后你意识到，哦，他建造了这个三层楼高的婴儿床，然后像《彼得潘》里那样把自己挂在安全带上。

And in the the third episode where he, you know, recreates the life of of Sully, which also includes a crazy bit of theatrical flight when he turns himself into baby Sullenberger, and he shaves his body. And then you see him in a diaper walking out, and then suddenly you see this giant crib, and you have no idea what you're watching at that moment. You're like, wait. Your your brain's gotta re and you realize, oh, he's built this three story tall, crib, and then he's hooked into these harnesses like from Peter Pan.

哪怕只有一丝丝萨利的特质能成为我的一部分，这一切都值得了。

If even just the tiniest bit of Sully could become a part of me, it would all be worth it.

然后他飞进了这个婴儿床。这是一个非常神奇的魔法时刻，紧接着就是我今年看过的最恐怖、最尴尬的时刻。

And he flies up into this crib. It's a very magic it's what magic moment, which precedes, like, the most horrifying, awkward moment I don't I've seen all year.

起初要进入一个婴儿的心智很困难。

It was difficult at first to inhabit the mind of a baby.

是不是那个他被巨型木偶哺乳的场景？

Is it the scene where he is breastfed by

被一个巨型木偶？是的。基本上，他几乎像是...几乎呛到了母亲的乳汁。

a giant puppet? By a giant puppet. Yes. And basically, he's almost like a He almost chops. On on mother's milk.

所以我尽量不去想自己是个41岁男人的事实，只是尽力活在当下。

So I tried not to think about the fact that I was a 41 year old man and just did my best to be present in the moment.

亚历克西斯现在做的这个表情

This face that Alexis is making right now

我太受伤了。我太受伤了

I'm so scarred. I'm so scarred

从这个你看着它

from this you watch it.

不。不。看了。我看了。我看了

No. No. Did. I did. I watched it.

我看了。天啊。我无法忘记它

I watched it. Oh god. I can't unwatch it.

它它就像它它会一直跟着你。也许它很伤人，但也许它也很精彩。但和电视上大多数内容不同，它会让你印象深刻

It's it it is like it it sticks with you. Maybe it's scarring, but it and maybe it's wonderful. But it unlike a lot of most stuff on television, it sticks with you.

我得说，确实没有人比他更投入表演了。就像，现在电视圈里没有人比他更拼命，没有人能用让我明显不适的方式把事情贯彻到底，也从不在有更复杂选项时选择简单方案。我是说，在你提到的那段可怕母乳喂养之前的场景里，还有个非常不舒服的情节——他应该要产生性兴奋。天啊。总之在那之前，当他还是婴儿时，他们使用了非常精致的日本木偶戏技术嗯

I will say, I mean, there is no one who commits to the bit harder. Like, there is no one working in TV right now who goes harder and who follows things through in ways that make me distinctly uncomfortable and never takes the easy option when a more elaborate option would work. I mean, in that sequence that you mentioned before the horrific breastfeeding, there's also a very uncomfortable thing where he's supposed to get sexually excited. Oh, god. Anyway but before that, when he's still the baby, they use like a very sophisticated form of Japanese puppetry Mhmm.

用来操纵一个巨型母亲木偶陪他。他真是做到极致了

To like puppet a giant mother for him. He does the most.

还有他那个踩高跷的高个子父亲？他那高个子的——天啊。这一切都很有《美丽心灵的永恒阳光》那种考夫曼式的风格

And his tall father on stilts? His tall oh my god. I mean, it's all very eternal sunshine of the spotless minds sort of like Kaufman esque.

但它也关于痴迷。就像，那一集里，我也把它看作是对那种痴迷文学理论的 parody——那种只要看够久就能从任何事物中找到意义的理论。对吧？他有个理论认为苏利做出英勇迫降行为的原因和伊凡塞斯的某首歌有关。你会相信这个理论因为我有过这种感受，亚历克莎，我相信你也有过

But it's also like it's also about obsession. Like, there's in that episode, there's I also see it as, like, a parody of, like, the sort of obsessed literary theory that can find meaning in anything if you look at it long enough. Right? He has this theory about the the reason Sully did this act of great bravery and landing this plane is tied to a song by Evanescence. And you believe it because I've I've I've felt this, Alexa, I'm sure you have.

如果你足够仔细地观察某件事并对其着迷，那么这种批评行为、分析行为就会拥有自己的生命力。它自有其乐趣，而他对此进行了嘲讽，并在全剧中将其戏剧化。

If you look closely enough at something and you get obsessed with it, the this this sort of the act of criticism, the act of analysis takes on a life of its own. It has its own pleasure, and he mocks that and dramatizes it throughout.

那一集里还有一点，以及第二季中发生的许多其他疯狂事情，都让人觉得他把整个构思与我们如今都像是被Reddit'洗脑'的状态联系起来，每个人都在试图，你知道，找出原因并不断深入挖掘。如果你一遍又一遍地重读萨利的回忆录，寻找漏洞并发现这些联系，那么你就能理解某件事为何真的发生了。

There was something also in in that episode and many other things, many other wild things happen throughout the second season That felt like he was connecting the entire conceit to the way that we're all sort of Reddit pilled now, and everyone is just trying to, you know, figure out what the reason is and go deeper and deeper and deeper. And if you reread Sully's memoir over and over and over again, look for the holes and find these connections, then you can understand why something actually happened.

只要你足够努力，任何事都可以变成谋杀墙。就像，几乎任何事都能用红线联系起来。

Everything's a murder wall if you try hard enough. Like, can red string just about anything.

需要明确的是，这一集的开头不是关于萨利，而是内森·菲尔德建造了一个狗主人房子的复制品，这位狗主人克隆了她死去的狗，试图看他能否通过重现死去狗的生活环境，让这只克隆狗表现得像那只死去的狗。

And just to be clear, this is a episode that starts not with Sully, but with Nathan Fielder building a replica of a of a dog owner's house, a dog owner who has cloned her dead dog to try to see if he can make that dog act like the dead dog by creating the circumstances under which the dead dog lived.

是的。不。我的意思是，这是一部我看过两遍的剧集。所以它有一层又一层的深意。有趣的是，它既在嘲讽这一点，同时也为你构建了可供分析和解读的东西。

Yes. No. It's it's a I mean, this is a this is a series I've seen twice. And so there's there's layers upon layers to go in. It's it's funny because it's making fun of this, but it's also building something for you to analyze and unpack.

它在结构上非常巧妙且雄心勃勃，而且，而且简直就是疯狂。

It's it's structurally really clever and ambitious and, and also just just insane.

这适合所有人看吗？它适合任何人吗？这节目到底是给谁看的？

Is this for everyone? Is it for anyone? Who who's this show for?

你。是给你的。是给你的，杰森。

You. It's for you. It's for you, Jason.

这简直就是'内森为你'。

It is literally Nathan for you.

确实是。确实是。是的。是给你的，布莱恩。

It is. It is. Yeah. It is Brian.