特朗普联盟的瓦解

网球巨星大坂直美是如何放松的？

How does tennis superstar Naomi Osaka unwind?

新西兰橄榄球传奇布罗科托科又是如何建立团队凝聚力的？

And how does New Zealand rugby legend Brokothoko build camaraderie among his team?

你好。

Hi there.

我是伊莎贝拉·罗西里尼。

I'm Isabella Rossellini.

在欧莱雅集团《这不是美容播客》的最后一集中，我们采访了几位世界顶级运动员，深入探讨美如何塑造体育运动。

And in the final episode of this is not a beauty podcast from L'Oreal Group, we speak to some of the world's greatest athletes to dig into how beauty shapes sports.

现在就在你喜欢的播客平台上收听吧。

Listen now on your favorite podcast platform.

这里是《纽约时报》，我是娜塔莉·基特罗夫。

From The New York Times, I'm Natalie Kitroef.

这里是《每日播报》。

This is The Daily.

自唐纳德·特朗普强势回归权力中心以来，他第二任期中最出人意料的剧情之一，便是总统与他亲手缔造的运动之间日益公开化的裂痕。

In the year since Donald Trump roared back to power, one of the most surprising storylines of his second term has been a series of increasingly public ruptures between the president and the movement he created.

从经济负担能力到海外战争，右翼关键人物如今正大胆质疑特朗普的政策重点及其执政成效。

On everything from affordability to foreign wars, key figures on the right are now daring to challenge Trump's priorities and his effectiveness.

今天，我的同事罗伯特·德雷珀将讲述MAGA运动内部不断升级的紧张局势，以及这些矛盾预示后特朗普时代美国右翼可能呈现的面貌。

Today, my colleague Robert Draper on the growing tensions inside the MAGA movement and what they tell us about what the American right might look like in a post Trump world.

今天是12月11日，星期四。

It's Thursday, December 11.

罗伯特，你好。

Robert, hi.

欢迎再次来到节目。

Welcome back to the show.

非常感谢你们的邀请。

Thanks so much for having me.

我们邀请你是因为多年来你一直深入报道右翼动态。

So we're coming to you because for several years now, you've been reporting extensively on the right.

作为其中的一部分，你花了很多时间与MAGA运动中的一些关键人物相处，其中有些人已经开始公开反对总统。

And as a part of that, you spent a lot of time with some of the key figures in the MAGA movement, some of whom have started to openly speak out against the president.

因此，我们希望你能帮助我们理解特朗普总统与其运动之间发生了什么，这种关系直到最近看起来还坚不可摧。

And so we're hoping you can help us understand what's been happening in the relationship between president Trump and his movement, which until recently looked pretty unshakable.

是的。

Yeah.

从某种意义上说，娜塔莉，正在发生的事情与历史上总统任期内的情形一致——经过一段时间后，总统开始呈现出跛脚鸭的姿态。

In a sense, Natalie, what's taking place is in step with what historically has transpired with presidencies that after a certain period, a president begins to take on the appearance of being a lame duck.

他不再完全掌控议程，而政党开始考虑后他时代的生活。

He no longer is in full control of the agenda, and the party begins to look at life after him.

但通常情况下，这种情况发生在中期选举之后，即两年任期之后。

But, typically, that has taken place after the midterms, after a two year period.

因此真正值得注意的是，这位总统上任仅十到十一个月，就开始显现出历史上我们与跛脚鸭相关联的弱点迹象，而事实上他本不该是只跛脚鸭。

And so what's really notable is that this president is now just ten to eleven months in, beginning to show the signs of weakness that historically we associate with a lame duck when in fact he should not be a lame duck.

没错。

Right.

与此同时，值得注意的是特朗普总统——至少在近代记忆中——是唯一一个真正掌控了其政党的政治人物。

And alongside that, it's also notable that president Trump, like no other political figure before him in recent memory at least, has exerted a real stranglehold over his party.

共和党的哲学理念、执政意识形态完全取决于特朗普总统的言论。

The party's philosophy, the party's governing ideology has been whatever president Trump has said it will be.

这种情况已经开始发生变化。

That has started to change.

事实上，人们开始敢于——需要明确的是并非所有人——但确实有人开始对特朗普总统的执政理念提出异议或反对，这本身就是非常新鲜的现象。

And the fact that people are daring, and and let's be clear, not everyone is, but that anyone is beginning to voice objections or take exception to president Trump's governing philosophy is something very new.

因此，这种现象的发生本身以及它发生得如此之早，都是非常不寻常的特征，我认为这在今年1月总统宣誓就职时是任何人都没有预料到的。

So the fact that it's happening at all and the fact that it's happening so early are both unusual features that were, I don't think, in any way expected when this president first took his oath in January.

确实如此。

Right.

说实话这确实令人震惊，因为就在几个月前，我们还认为这位总统无所不能、几乎不可战胜。

It does strike me as honestly stunning because it feels as though just a few months ago, we were thinking of this president really as as all powerful, as kind of invincible.

他是带着这种强大民意授权上台的。

He was swept in with this mandate.

他当时左右开弓地签署行政命令。

He was taking executive actions left and right.

而按你的说法，他现在在自己党内被视为弱势，听起来是这样。

And very quickly, you're saying he's now being seen within his own party as vulnerable, it sounds like.

没错。

That's right.

当特朗普总统第二次宣誓就职时，右翼人士曾宣称这是美国的黄金时代。

And when president Trump took his second oath of office, there were people on the right proclaiming this, the golden era of America.

他们当时真的相信这位总统能实现任何不可能的事。

They really believed that nothing would be impossible with this president.

但这种看法在夏末开始改变，当时我们看到著名的保守派意见领袖开始敢于偏离政府政策路线，甚至直接反驳行政当局的倾向性政策。

But that began to change, however, in the late summer when we began to see prominent conservative influencers dared to go off message from administration policy and, in fact, outright contradict what the administration's preferred policy was.

通过这样的举动，他们实际上开始暗示总统不再无所不能，并预示本届政府将出现某种弱势。

And so in doing so, they began implicitly to announce that the president was no longer omnipotent and to presage a kind of vulnerability in this administration.

好的。

Okay.

那么带我们回到夏末时分，当这种情况开始显现的时候。

So take us back to that time during the late summer when this started to emerge.

这一切对你而言是何时开始变得明显的？

When did all of this start to feel distinct to you?

是的。

Yeah.

我可以确定一个具体日期。

I can place a date on it.

那天是9月10日，查理·柯克遇刺的日子。

That date is September 10 when Charlie Kirk was assassinated.

柯克作为Turning Point USA的负责人，不仅是保守派活动家，还是总统的密友。

Kirk, the head of Turning Point USA, was not only a conservative activist, but a confidant of the president.

需要说明的是，娜塔莉，当时运动内部已经存在裂痕。

And to be clear, Natalie, there were already fissures in the movement.

总统在拒绝公开爱泼斯坦文件问题上的固执态度已引发不安。

There was disquiet over the president's intransigence regarding his refusal to release the Epstein files.

是的。

Yep.

有人对总统决定轰炸伊朗核设施表示担忧。

There was concern relating to the president's decision to bomb nuclear facilities in Iran.

而查理·柯克无法完全平息这些日益增长的担忧。

And Charlie Kirk was unable to tamp down altogether those growing concerns.

我想试着解决我们许多观众通过邮件询问的问题。

I wanna try to address the issue that many people in our audience are emailing us about.

我指的当然是爱泼斯坦事件。

I'm, of course, talking about the Epstein situation.

柯克能做到的是调节对总统的批评。

What Kirk was able to do was to modulate criticisms of the president.

大家都知道我对爱泼斯坦事件的看法。

Everyone knows my opinion about the Epstein thing.

但我非常希望看到司法部采取行动解封大陪审团的证词。

But I I I would love to see the DOJ move to unseal the grand jury testimony.

我认为这将是一个重大胜利。

I think that would be a big win.

对外公开地说，我认为我们应该公布爱泼斯坦的文件。

To say externally, I think that we should release the Epstein files.

当柯克明确总统对此事的立场——即他不想再听到右翼影响者谈论爱泼斯坦的话题后，他便巧妙地从施压要求公布文件转向表态称

And once it became evident to Kirk where the president stood on this, that he didn't wanna hear right wing influencers talking about the subject of Epstein anymore, Kirk was able to expertly pivot away from him pressing for the release of the files to saying

我选择相信卡什·帕特尔、丹·邦吉诺和JD·万斯。

I'm gonna trust Cash Patel, Dan Bongino, JD Vance.

球在他们手上。

It's their ball.

这是他们的掌控范围。

It's their possession.

我对政府调查此事的能力充满信心。

I have full faith in the administration's ability to look into this matter.

我已表明立场，这一观点已成为右翼人士中的主流论调。

I've said my piece, and that viewpoint became the prevailing talking point amongst figures on the right.

我会信任政府中的朋友们去做该做的事。

I'm gonna trust my friends in the government to do what needs to be done.

我已经说了

I've said

这就是柯克的独特才能，能在右翼的整体信息中贯彻某种纪律性。

So this was the unique skill of Kirk, to enforce a kind of discipline in the overall message of the right.

人们在这方面都仰仗柯克。

People looked to Kirk in that regard.

相应地，当他在9月10日被枪杀后，这种纪律性几乎立刻就开始瓦解。

And correspondingly then, when he was gunned down on September 10, that discipline almost immediately began to give way.

没有了他，保守派运动或MAGA运动给人的感觉不像是随波逐流，而是充满了各种矛盾的震荡。

And without him, it began to feel like the conservative movement or the MAGA movement was not so much cast adrift, but reverberating with all of these tensions.

那么罗伯特，你最早在哪里看到这种损失对MAGA运动的影响？

So Robert, where do you first see the impact of that loss on MAGA?

比如，在柯克死后，这些分歧最初是以什么形式开始公开爆发的？

Like, what's the first example of these divisions that were bubbling up starting to spill out in the open after Kirk's death?

我认为这些不满和分歧首次公开化的时刻，是塔克·卡尔森在他的节目中邀请了白人至上主义者尼克·富恩特斯。

I think the first moment at which these discontents, disagreements became very public was when Tucker Carlson hosted on his show the white nationalist Nick Fuentes.

富恩特斯此前在保守派运动中一直被视为禁忌人物，他们极力想将他边缘化，因为他经常发表一些毫不掩饰的反犹、种族主义和性别歧视言论。

Fuentes had been considered a sort of verboten figure in the conservative movement, a guy they very much wanted to keep at the margins because he has casually issued some unabashedly antisemitic and racist and sexist commentary.

他曾暗示大屠杀中600万犹太人死亡的数字不实。

He has suggested that the numbers don't add up when it comes to 6,000,000 Jews perishing in the Holocaust.

他公然宣称黑人在吉姆·克劳法时期比现在过得更好。

He has said outright that blacks were better off under Jim Crow than they are today.

他对女性发表过各种令人作呕的言论，认为她们本质上应该被当作动产对待。

He has made all sorts of obnoxious statements regarding women and how they should essentially be used as chattel.

最重要的是，他不仅批评以色列和以色列政府，还专门针对他所谓的'美国犹太人有组织问题'，并毫不掩饰地认为犹太人是个问题——他们不愿同化且不可救药，这构成了美国面临的首要问题。

And most of all, he has not just spoken critically of Israel in the Israeli government, but he has honed in on what he calls the problem of organized Jewry in America and has been unapologetic in his belief that Jews are a problem, unassimilable and incorrigible in their unwillingness to assimilate, and that that presents America with its foremost problem.

而对卡尔森来说——这位可以说是美国最具影响力的保守派声音，一个无论与特朗普总统有多少分歧都保持密切关系的人，尤其与副总统J...

And so for Carlson, who is arguably the most influential conservative voice in America, a person who remains very close to president Trump through the thick and thin of their disagreements and who is especially close to vice president J.

D.

D.

为尼克·富恩特斯提供平台宣扬其偏执言论，正是这次访谈引发广泛警觉的原因。

Vance to be offering Nick Fuentes an opportunity to air his bigoted musings was the reason why so many people viewed this interview with great alarm.

让我们先放慢节奏理清这一点。

Let's just slow that down for a moment.

你能介绍一下尼克·富恩特斯吗？

Can you tell us about Nick Fuentes?

他是什么人？

Who is he?

当然。

Sure.

尼克·富恩特斯是27岁的右翼网红，自2017年起就活跃于公众视野。

Nick Fuentes is a 27 year old right wing influencer who had been more or less on the scene since 2017.

他是特朗普总统的早期狂热支持者，但当时并未产生特别影响力。

He was an early and loud supporter of president Trump, but not one of any particular consequence.

2017年他开始受到媒体关注，因为在弗吉尼亚州夏洛茨维尔举行的'团结右翼'集会上，出现了'你们无法取代我们'的臭名昭著口号。

In 2017, he began to pop up in the media because at the Unite the Right rally in Charlottesville, Virginia that included the notorious chant, you will not replace us.

犹太人不会取代我们。

Jews will not replace us.

那些手持火炬的人。

The torch carriers.

是的。

Yeah.

没错。

Yes.

富恩特斯当时就在其中。

Fuentes was among them.

他那时开始获得一些关注，但基本上仍被右翼势力边缘化，这种情况甚至在他与坎耶·韦斯特一起在特朗普总统的海湖庄园共进晚餐时依然如此。

So he began to gain some traction then, but by and large was held at bay from the right, and that continued really to be the case even when he had dinner with Kanye West with president Trump at Mar A Lago.

这些都是富恩特斯零星出现的场合，但他仍被视为非重要人物。

These were the sort of sporadic appearances by Fuentes, but he was still viewed as not a major figure.

然而与此同时，特朗普并未与富恩特斯划清界限，对吧？

And yet at the same time, right, Trump didn't disavow Fuentes.

在那次声名狼藉的午餐后，他并没有谴责此人。

He didn't condemn him after that infamous lunch.

他大概说了些类似'我不认识这家伙'的话。

He kinda said something like, I didn't know who this guy was.

不是我邀请他的，但也没有直接划清界限。

I didn't invite him, but there was no direct disavowal.

没有。

No.

这是个关键点，娜塔莉。

And that's a salient point, Natalie.

特朗普拒绝表态——顺便说一句，如果我早知道，绝不会带他来海湖庄园——这与乔治亚州众议员玛乔丽·泰勒·格林以及众议员保罗·戈萨尔2021至2022年参加尼克·富恩特斯'美国优先'大会时的声明如出一辙。

Trump's refusal to say, and by the way, had I known, I would never have brought him, you know, at Mar A Lago, was very much in keeping with the statements made by Marjorie Taylor Greene, the congresswoman from Georgia, and congressman Paul Gosar when each of them in 2021 and 2022 appeared in Nick Fuentes' America First conferences.

那么这究竟是怎么回事？

So what's going on here?

为何要公开拒绝谴责富恩特斯？

Why the refusal to condemn Fuentes outwardly?

关键在于他们都意识到，无论富恩特斯本身如何，他确实拥有大量年轻、男性、几乎全是白人且心怀不满的保守派追随者，这正是特朗普联盟的关键组成部分。

What that's about is that they all recognize that Fuentes, for whatever else he was or wasn't, commanded a sizable following of young, male, almost entirely white, disaffected conservatives, which is a key part of the Trump coalition.

没有人愿意谴责富恩特斯，因为害怕因此谴责他的追随者。

And no one wished to condemn Fuentes for fear of condemning his followers.

没错。

Right.

他们不想把他赶出阵营。

They don't wanna kick him out of the tent.

正是如此。

That's right.

他们想把他赶出阵营，但仍想留住他的人。

They want him out of the tent, but they still want his people.

因此他始终给保守派运动出了道难题。

And so it's he's presented the conservative movement with something of a conundrum throughout.

当时对富恩特斯的主流看法是：希望他会自行消失，而这些心怀不满的年轻男性保守派会另寻精神领袖。

Mainly then, the view of Fuentes was, hopefully, he will just go away, and these young disaffected male conservatives will find another big brother figure.

这就是今年八月至九月初的局势，当时塔克·卡尔森在节目中随口评论富恩特斯，说他不过是个在地下室说些讨厌话的孩子。

So that was the state of play until around August and early September of this year when Tucker Carlson happened to make a sidelong comment about Fuentes on his show saying that Fuentes was just some kid living in his basement saying obnoxious things.

富恩特斯将此视为机会，在自己的播客上连续多日发表反驳，这反而大幅增加了他的关注度。嗯。

And Fuentes saw that as an opportunity to issue days and days of rebuttals on his own podcast, which in turn really ratcheted up his following Mhmm.

这不仅让富恩特斯与卡尔森的对立受到关注，更让富恩特斯本人成为焦点。

And brought attention not just to Fuentes vis a vis Carlson, but Fuentes in general.

随后，所有播客圈的人都开始讨论这两人之间的这场风波。

And all of the podcasters on the ride began to talk about this dust up between those two.

最终，卡尔森本人被说服——确切地说，是被与他交谈的朋友们说服——他们告诉他：你低估了这个富恩特斯。

And so finally, Carlson himself decided and was convinced, frankly, by people who were friends of his who talked to him and said, know, you're underestimating this guy Fuentes.

他实际上拥有相当可观的追随者群体，于是卡尔森决定邀请他上节目。

He actually has a really sizable following, and, Carlson decided then to have him on his show.

尼克·富恩特斯，感谢你接受采访。

Nick Fuentes, thank you for doing this.

是的。

Yeah.

感谢邀请

Thank you for having

我一直想见你

I wanted to meet you.

我听说过你

I've heard about you.

我也听说过你

I've heard about you.

嗯，谢谢。

So Well, thank you.

那是个非常友好的两小时对话。

And it was this very sort of genial two hours.

你就是那种人。

You're one of those people.

我想见你的原因之一，就是你是那种被片段定义的人。

One of the reasons I wanted to meet you is you're one of those people who is defined by clips.

是的。

Yes.

我也是这样的人。

And I'm one of those people also.

是的。

Yes.

对吧？

Right?

所以我理解。

So I get it.

但实际上卡尔森把麦克风推到富恩特斯面前，让他自由发挥。

But In which Carlson, in effect, slid the microphone in front of Fuentes and let him riff on.

所以我会闭嘴，你告诉我你真正相信什么。

So I'm gonna just shut up, and you tell me what you actually believe.

是啊。

Yeah.

好吧，听着。

Well and and listen.

我感谢你这么说，因为这就是我们所在媒体环境的现实。

I mean and I appreciate you saying that because it's that's just a reality of the media environment we're in.

所以如果你不了解我的所有观点，我也不指望你了解。

So if you I don't expect you to know all my views.

但是，就犹太人而言

But, I mean, as far as the Jews are concerned

那么塔克·卡尔森为什么要这么做？

Now why did Tucker Carlson do this?

嗯，你知道，为什么...是的。

Well, you know, why Yeah.

这正是我的问题。

My question exactly.

当然。

Sure.

嗯，娜塔莉，我认为答案在于他发现与富恩特斯有共同立场，因为卡尔森本人过去一年来越发反对以色列，或者用他的话说，反对以色列政府。

Well and I think that the answer to that, Natalie, is that he was finding common cause in Fuentes because Carlson himself, over the past year, had become increasingly anti Israel, or as he would put it, anti Israeli government.

我一直认为批评和质疑我们与以色列的关系是件好事，因为这种关系很疯狂，而且伤害了我们。

I always thought it's great to criticize and question, like, our relationship with Israel because it's insane, and it hurts us.

我们从中一无所获。

We get nothing out of it.

在那一点上我完全同意你的看法。

I completely agree with you there.

以色列政府长久以来一直是牵着美国事务鼻子走的尾巴。

That the Israeli government has been the tail that has wagged the dog of American affairs for far too long.

我一直认为自己对以色列持世界上最温和的立场。

I've always thought I have the most world's most moderate position on Israel.

不憎恨以色列。

Don't hate Israel.

只是不想卷入他们的战争。

Just don't wanna get involved in their wars.

不想为此买单。

Don't wanna pay for this.

不想为一个外国国家按需堕胎的费用买单。

Don't wanna pay for abortion on demand in a foreign country.

抱歉。

Sorry.

当我们自己削减食品券时，这简直太离谱了。

When we're cutting food stamps on our own, like, that's outrageous.

这不是美国优先。

It's not America first.

同时坚称他憎恶反犹太主义。

While insisting that he abhors antisemitism.

我认为真正糟糕且具有破坏性的是，认为所有犹太人都有罪或所有人都该为某事负责，因为这根本不符合事实。

What I do think is bad, just objectively bad and destructive, is the all Jews are guilty or all anybody is guilty of anything because that's just, like, not true.

但总体而言，他对福恩特斯观点的态度非常包容，而这些观点过去是、现在也依然是明确的反犹太主义。

And But by and large, he was very accommodating towards Fuentes' view, which was and is unambiguously antisemitic.

正如我所说，你实际上无法将以色列、新保守主义以及你谈论的所有那些事物与犹太特性分离开来。

Like I said, you cannot actually divorce Israel and the neocons and all all those things that you talk about from Jewishness.

此前从未有过像塔克·卡尔森这样地位的人曾在节目中与富恩特斯对话。

There had never really been anyone of Tucker Carlson's stature who had spoken to Fuentes before on the air.

你显然正在崛起。

You're clearly ascendant.

你才华横溢。

You're enormously talented.

作为演说者，你无疑比我更有才华。

You're more talented than I am, for sure, as a talker.

却给了他如此温和的对待。

And to give him that kind of softball treatment.

尼克·富恩特斯，非常感谢你。

Nick Fuentes, thank you very much.

谢谢。

Thank you.

很高兴认识你。

It's nice to meet you.

我也是。

Likewise.

这让许多右翼人士感到非常震惊且不合时宜。

I struck so many on the right as really alarming and inappropriate.

塔克·卡尔森就是个无名小卒。

Tucker Carlson's a nobody.

他是在福克斯成名的。

He got famous on Fox.

仅此而已。

That's it.

右翼广播员马克·莱文公开谴责了卡尔森。

Mark Levin, the right wing broadcaster denounced Carlson.

尼克·富恩特斯就是我们鞋底的烂口香糖。

Mick Fuentes is gum on the bottom of our shoe.

塔克·卡尔森是政治体上的一颗流血痔疮。

Tucker Carlson is a bleeding hemorrhoid on the body politic.

他们不是MAGA（让美国再次伟大）支持者。

They're not MAGA.

他们不是保守派。

They're not conservative.

如今，塔克·卡尔森是美国最危险的反犹分子。

Today, Tucker Carlson is the most dangerous antisemite in America.

国会议员兰迪·法恩同样表示，卡尔森的言论及其对富恩特斯的友善态度在保守派运动中毫无立足之地。

The congressman Randy Fine said as well that Carlson's remarks and his amiable treatment of Fuentes had no place in the conservative movement.

塔克不属于MAGA阵营。

Tucker is not MAGA.

而且

And

特别是知名右翼播客主、《每日电讯》的本·夏皮罗。

in particular, the well known right wing podcaster Ben Shapiro of the Daily Wire.

夏皮罗本人就是一名正统派犹太教徒。

Shapiro himself is an Orthodox Jew.

他对此直言不讳。

He made no bones about it.

问题不在于塔克·卡尔森上周邀请了尼克·富恩特斯上节目。

The issue here isn't that Tucker Carlson had Nick Flantes on his show last week.

他当然完全有权这样做。

He has every right to do that, of course.

问题在于塔克·卡尔森决定将尼克·富恩特斯正常化并为其粉饰。

The issue here is that Tucker Carlson decided to normalize and fluff Nick Fuentes.

这就是反犹主义。

That this is anti Semitism.

拒绝为尼克·富恩特斯这样的希特勒支持者提供传播平台并非封杀行为。

It is not cancellation to refuse to signal boost Hitler supporters like Nick Fuentes.

批评塔克·卡尔森在言论上为尼克·富恩特斯及其他反美狂徒粉饰也并非封杀。

It is not cancellation to criticize Tucker Carlson for rhetorically fluffing Nick Fuentes and other anti American crackpots.

显然，这次塔克与富恩特斯的访谈触及了美国与以色列关系、反犹太主义问题上的分歧神经，以及保守运动中是否容忍公然反犹主义的问题。

So this Tucker Fuentes interview obviously touched a nerve over divisions on the question of The US relationship with Israel and antisemitism and whether there is tolerance for blatant antisemitism in the conservative movement.

我很好特朗普在这其中的立场，罗伯特，因为他显然与以色列保持着非常紧密的同盟关系，但众所周知他也曾与尼克·富恩特斯共进晚餐。

And I'm curious where Trump sits in all of this, Robert, because he's obviously maintained a very close alliance with Israel, but he's also been known to have a meal with Nick Fuentes.

那么特朗普对此持何立场？整个事件又揭示出他在这个问题上存在怎样的软肋？

So where is Trump on this, and what does this whole saga tell us about his vulnerability on this issue?

是的。

Yeah.

这是个很好的问题，娜塔莉。

It's a great question, Natalie.

一方面，我认为特朗普是我们见过最亲以色列的总统之一。

And on the one hand, I think that Trump has been one of the most pro Israel presidents we've seen.

但另一方面，他从未谴责过富恩特斯，同样地，副总统J·

On the other hand, has at no point denounced Fuentes, nor for that matter has vice president J.

D也从未表态。

D.

尽管方特斯经常不仅侮辱万斯，还侮辱万斯来自印度的妻子及其家人。

Vance despite the fact that Fuentes has routinely insulted not only Vance, but Vance's wife and her family who are from India.

因此保守派运动中似乎存在一种允许偏见和反犹主义公开表达的结构，这让许多右翼人士感到不安。

So there is a permission structure seemingly for bigotry and antisemitism to be aired out in the conservative movement, which makes a lot of people on the right uncomfortable.

但你提到了脆弱性，我认为这是需要关注的重点，不仅关乎反犹主义，还关乎人们如何解读这届政府的优先事项——毕竟总统当选时主要承诺是聚焦国内议题。

But you mentioned vulnerability, and I think this is an important thing to focus on, not just as it relates to antisemitism, but also how one interprets this administration's priorities when the president was elected largely on keeping our attention fixed to domestic issues.

现在尼克·方特斯和塔克·卡尔森可以合理主张，外交事务已经侵入并严重干扰了这些政府优先事项，不仅涉及以色列，还包括乌克兰和委内瑞拉。

Now Nick Fuentes and Tucker Carlson are able to reasonably assert that foreign entanglements have intruded into and and in many ways disrupted those administration priorities, not just as regards Israel, but as regards Ukraine and as regards Venezuela.

这似乎关联到一个更广泛的质疑：特朗普的总体优先事项是否过度聚焦外交事务和外部冲突，可能损害了对国内议题的关注。

And it sounds like it's connected to a kind of broader question that's being asked about Trump's priorities in general, the focus on foreign affairs, on foreign conflicts, to potentially the detriment of a focus on domestic issues.

是的。

Yes.

我在11月与塔克·卡尔森共处几小时时讨论过这个问题。

So I I talked to Tucker Carlson about this when I spent a few hours with him in November.

卡尔森对此有个理论，他说：听着。

And Carlson had a theory on this, and he said, look.

事实是，特朗普总统正在意识到解决许多这些棘手的国内问题有多么困难，尤其是与可负担性相关的问题。

The truth is is that president Trump is realizing how difficult it is to solve a lot of these intractable domestic issues, particularly as it relates to affordability.

你知道，你可以谈论鸡蛋的价格或汽油的价格。

You know, you can you can talk about the price of eggs or something or even the price of gas.

但总体而言，美国确实存在严重的可负担性危机，而且对此很难采取任何措施。

But overall, there is a real affordability crisis in America, and it's tough to do anything about that.

卡尔森说相比之下，你可以轰炸伊朗的核设施，知道伊朗可能不会采取任何行动，这样你可以看起来英勇且强大。

Carlson said that by contrast, you know, you can go bomb a nuclear site in Iran knowing Iran probably isn't gonna do anything about it, and you can look heroic and you can look powerful.

因此，尽管特朗普历来关注国内问题，他现在意识到在外交政策领域比在国内更容易表现得像神一样。

And so Trump, for all of his own focus historically on domestic problems, is now realizing it's easier to be godlike in the foreign policy arena than at home.

对。

Right.

我是说，卡尔森在这里说的有一定的政治逻辑。

I mean, there's a political logic to what Carlson is saying here.

推动特朗普当选的主要问题之一就是经济。

One of the main issues driving Trump's election was the economy.

因此我想，有很多人投票给他是因为他们期待特朗普作为总统能像激光般聚焦于民生经济问题，而非调解遥远地区的冲突——而他在上任第一年却大量参与了后者。

And so I imagine there's a lot of people who feel like they voted for him because they expected Trump as president to have a laser like focus on pocketbook issues rather than on mediating conflicts in far flung places, which is something he's done a lot of in his first year.

没错。

Right.

但在提出这一点时，娜塔莉，你实际上引入了一个我认为至关重要的区分——即特朗普总统的两个口号之间的区别：‘让美国再次伟大’（MAGA）和‘美国优先’。

But in raising that point, Natalie, what you're doing is essentially introducing what I think is an important distinction, and that is the distinction between two slogans by president Trump, MAGA, make America great again, and America first.

所以‘让美国再次伟大’本质上是个竞选口号。

So make America great again is basically an a campaign slogan.

它与特朗普总统有着不可分割的关联。

It's inextricably tied to president Trump.

我的意思是，人们某种程度上理解它的潜台词是：奥巴马执政时期美国并不伟大。

I mean, kind of understands that what it means is, like, America wasn't great when Obama was president.

当特朗普成为总统时，美国才变得伟大。

It became great when Trump became president.

而拜登当总统后，美国又变得糟糕了。

It became terrible again when Biden was president.

现在因为特朗普，美国再次伟大起来了。

Now it's great again because of Trump.

直白地说，这是一种个人崇拜的概念，但它终究只是个口号。

It's, to put it bluntly, a personality cult notion, but it is finally a slogan.

‘美国优先’是一项原则，而如何定义‘美国优先’正是可以进行有益意识形态辩论的那类议题。

America first is a principle, and defining what America first is is the kind of thing that's subject to useful ideological argument.

我认为塔克·卡尔森，或许还有众议员玛乔丽·泰勒·格林同样如此，他们一直站在最前沿宣称：

I think that Tucker Carlson and perhaps just as much congresswoman Marjorie Taylor Greene have been at the forefront of saying, look.

‘美国优先’的原则已经确立。

America first principles have been laid out.

这些原则已被保守派、特朗普总统的选民们普遍理解。

They have been commonly understood by conservatives, by voters of president Trump.

而如今特朗普政府却偏离了方向，违背了对美国人民的这些承诺。

And now the Trump administration has been wayward, has veered off of those commitments to Americans.

与此同时，你知道，他们还把钱花在很多人反对的事情上，比如一个舞厅。

And at the same time, you know, spending money on things that a lot of people took issue with, a ballroom, for example.

是的。

Yes.

他自己的行为似乎与他将美国人放在首位的承诺相矛盾。

That his own actions seem to be at variance with his pledges to put Americans first.

正是这种认知失调开始导致党内出现另一个明显的裂痕，尤其是与玛乔丽·泰勒·格林之间。

And it's this cognitive dissonance that began to result in another noticeable fracture in the party, particularly with Marjorie Taylor Greene.

我们将在休息后立即讨论她。

And we will talk about her right after the break.

我们马上回来。

We'll be right back.

你好。

Hi.

我是索拉娜·派恩。

I'm Solana Pine.

我是《纽约时报》的视频总监。

I'm the director of video at The New York Times.

多年来，我的团队制作的视频让你更贴近重大新闻时刻，这些由《纽约时报》记者制作的视频具备专业知识和训练，帮助你理解正在发生的事情。

For years, my team has made videos that bring you closer to big news moments, videos by Times journalists that have the expertise and training to help you understand what's going on.

你可能在社交媒体或浏览《纽约时报》时见过这些视频。

You might have seen these on social media or browsing The New York Times.

现在我们将这些视频带到《纽约时报》应用的'观看'标签页中。

Now we're bringing those videos to you in the watch tab in The New York Times app.

这是一个专门的视频流，在这里你知道可以信任你所看到的内容。

It's a dedicated video feed where you know you can trust what you're seeing.

那里的所有视频对任何人都是免费观看的。

All the videos there are free for anyone to watch.

你不需要是订阅用户。

You don't have to be a subscriber.

从你喜欢的应用商店下载《纽约时报》应用即可开始观看。

Download the New York Times app from your favorite app store to start watching.

如果你更喜欢音频内容，那里也有一个'收听'标签页。

And if you're more of an audio person, there's a listen tab too.

罗伯特，你提到了来自乔治亚州的众议员玛乔丽·泰勒·格林，她的转变确实象征着右翼阵营中一些人正开始与特朗普分道扬镳。

Robert, you brought up congresswoman Marjorie Taylor Greene from Georgia, and her evolution really feels emblematic of this break with Trump that we're starting to see among some on the right.

众所周知，她最初因成为特朗普最亲密的盟友之一而闻名。

Obviously, she became famous for being one of Trump's closest allies.

而如今她已宣布辞去公职，并明确表示特朗普正在背叛这场运动。

And now she has since announced her resignation from office and said pretty explicitly that Trump is betraying the movement.

那么让我们来聊聊玛乔丽·泰勒·格林这段政治历程。

So let's talk about this journey that Marjorie Taylor Greene has been on.

娜塔莉，这确实是一段独特的历程。

I mean, Natalie, it is a singular journey.

它代表了MAGA忠诚派转变为特朗普政府异议声音的最极端案例。

It represents the most extreme case of a MAGA loyalist becoming a dissenting voice to the Trump administration.

但话虽如此，我认为这确实更广泛地反映了从众人精准合唱MAGA圣歌到如今出现不和谐音符的演变过程。

But having said that, I do think that it does reflect in a broader sense this evolution from everyone singing with precision from the MAGA hymnal to now striking discordant notes.

考虑到格林曾是特朗普多么坚定不移的支持者，这种转变实在引人注目。

And that is so remarkable given how unflagging a supporter Green was of Trump.

她于2021年抵达华盛顿，刚当选时带着毫不掩饰的亲特朗普竞选纲领，期望自己能助力特朗普总统的第二任期。

She arrived in Washington in 2021, freshly elected with an unapologetically pro Trump campaign platform, expecting that she would be part of facilitating president Trump's second term.

然而她抵达后仅几天就遭遇了1月6日事件，而特朗普已经败选。

Instead, she arrived just a couple of days before January 6 with Trump having been defeated.

就在国会大厦骚乱发生后不久，许多共和党人急于与这位败选的前总统保持距离时，玛乔丽·泰勒·格林却是华盛顿最声嘶力竭为特朗普辩护的人

And at a time on the heels of the Capitol riot when a lot of Republicans wanted to distance themselves from the defeated former president, Marjorie Taylor Greene was the most vociferous defender of Trump really in Washington

确实。

Right.

在2024年特朗普参加共和党全国代表大会期间，她依然如此坚定地支持他。

And continued to be so throughout his campaign in 2024 when he was at the Republican National Convention.

第二天她坐在总统包厢里紧挨特朗普，宣称他是上帝赐予的礼物，并赋予他近乎神学意义的救世主形象。

She sat by his side on the second day in the presidential booth and was pledging that Trump was a gift from God and that she viewed him in kind of these theological proportions as someone who would be saving America.

因此特朗普第二任期开始时，玛乔丽·泰勒·格林始终坚定地站在他身边。

So the beginning of Trump's second term saw Marjorie Taylor Green unflaggingly by his side.

但伴随着她对特朗普态度转变的，是她在国会任职期间对自身党派日益增长的幻灭感——这个掌权的政党却毫无作为。

But then alongside her own arc regarding Trump was her own experience in congress when she became increasingly disillusioned with her own party that, once it had power, didn't really do anything with it.

她开始考虑或许要竞选其他职位，可能是参议员，也可能是乔治亚州州长。

She began to think maybe of running for something else, perhaps senator, perhaps governor of Georgia.

非但没有得到任何鼓励，特朗普的白宫基本上给这个想法泼了一盆冷水。

And far from getting any encouragement, the Trump White House basically threw a wet blanket over that.

她告诉我，她感觉自己对特朗普的所有忠诚都成了单方面的付出。

She told me that she felt like all of her loyalty to Trump was amounting to a one way street.

这种忠诚并未得到回报。

It wasn't being rewarded.

确实如此。

That's correct.

是的。

Yes.

这就为过去两三个月发生的事情埋下了伏笔——她开始不仅对共和党，对特朗普本人也越来越感到幻灭。

And and so that sets the stage then, I think, for what began to happen over the last two or three months where she began to be increasingly disillusioned, not just with the Republican Party, but with president Trump himself.

我认为一个真正的导火索是特朗普拒绝公开爱泼斯坦的文件。

And I think that one real flashpoint was Trump's refusal to release the Epstein files.

这已成为右派的一种信条。

This had become an article of faith amongst the right.

他们唯一能达成共识的是，杰弗里·爱泼斯坦是美国最恶劣的性交易贩子。

The one thing they could all agree on was that Jeffrey Epstein was the most heinous sex trafficker in America.

因此看到特朗普现在含糊其辞，然后说‘别再谈论爱泼斯坦了’。

And so to see now Trump hedging and then saying, stop talking about Epstein.

这种‘此地无银三百两’的态度让她感到愤怒。

There's no there there was outrageous to her.

随后在政府停摆期间，她开始回家与选民交谈。

Then during the government shutdown, she began to go home, and she talked to her constituents.

选民们会说：‘住房依然负担不起。’

And they'd say, you know, housing is still unaffordable.

‘食品杂货依然价格高昂。’

Grocers are still unaffordable.

‘我们本以为总统会对此采取些措施。’

We thought that the president was gonna do something about this.

顺便问一句，他为什么要把这么多钱花在以色列？

And why, by the way, is he spending all this money in Israel?

我们正目睹着加沙地带发生的可怕画面。

And we're seeing this horrible footage of what's taking place in Gaza.

格林告诉我，她开始从选民口中听到'种族灭绝'这个词，并成为首位公开将加沙局势称为种族灭绝的知名共和党人。

Green told me that she began to hear the g word, genocide, by her own constituents, and Green became the first prominent Republican to describe what was taking place in Gaza as a genocide.

于是格林开始公开表达她的忧虑，不仅在于她发声的内容，更在于她选择的发声平台。

So Green began to voice her concerns very publicly, and it's not just that she voiced them, but it's where she voiced them.

《观点》节目首次迎来一位你们可能意想不到的嘉宾。

For the very first time on The View, we are joined by someone you might be surprised to see here.

她登上了《观点》节目。

She went on The View.

让我们欢迎国会议员玛乔丽·泰勒·格林。

Please welcome congresswoman Marjorie Taylor Greene.

这档节目普遍被认为具有左倾倾向。

Which is largely regarded as a a left leaning show.

嗯。

Mhmm.

这位右翼超级战士出现在这样的节目上，这一景象相当引人注目，老实说，《观点》节目组的工作人员对此也感到惊讶。

And the specter of this right wing mega warrior being on a show like that was a rather remarkable one, and one frankly that people on the set of The View were surprised at.

我采访了其中一位工作人员，他们原本预计格林会气势汹汹地进场，把所有人痛批一顿，再次大谈特朗普有多么伟大。

I I spoke to one of them who had said that they were suspecting that Green would come in loaded for Bear and just rip into all of them and once again talk about how great Trump was.

听着，我和女性们在一起，所以我很自在地说这句话。

Look, I'm with women, so I feel very comfortable saying this.

我实在受够了华盛顿特区那些男人之间的权力争斗。

I'm really tired of the pissing contest in Washington DC between the men.

真的受够了。

I I really am.

他们完全没料到会遇到这么好说话的人。

They were not prepared at all for this really very accommodating individual.

我觉得政府辜负了我们所有人，这让我感到纯粹的反胃。

And I feel like the government has failed all of us, and it it purely disgust me.

他说，看吧，当今政治已经变得过热了。

Who said, look, things have gotten overheated in today's politics.

我代表的选区是一个乡村制造业区，蓝领工人为主，这些人几十年来一直被华盛顿的失败政策所压垮。

I represent a district that is rural manufacturing district, blue collar workers, and people have been crushed by decades of failure in Washington DC.

所以我毫不介意指责所有人。

And so I have no problem pointing fingers at everyone.

而最糟糕的是

And The worst by one

决定。

decisions.

加入民主党吧，玛乔丽。

Become a democrat, Marjorie.

我感觉我旁边坐着一个完全不同的玛乔丽·泰勒·格林。

I feel like I'm sitting next to a completely different Marjorie Taylor Greene.

节目中的共同主持人对眼前这个玛乔丽·泰勒·格林表示震惊。

The cohosts on the air expressed astonishment that this was the Marjorie Taylor Greene they were seeing.

除了这次访谈，格林还接受了其他媒体的采访。

And in addition to the view, Greene was speaking to other media outlets.

我的问题是这样的。

Here's my issue.

我是美国优先主义者，对此我毫不避讳。

I'm America first, and I don't apologize for that.

我认为国会两党——无论是民主党还是共和党——都应当为美国人民服务。

And I believe congress, both Democrats and republicans, should be serving the American people.

虽然她在这些采访中的言论并未公开批评政府，但字里行间仍透露出不同意见的意味。

Though what she had to say during these interviews wasn't openly critical of the administration, implicitly, she was striking a note of disagreement.

当你以'美国优先'为竞选纲领，就像餐厅宣传某种特色菜却不上这道菜一样。

When you campaign on America First, it's like having a restaurant advertising, like, a certain type of food, and then you don't deliver America First.

你就不会再有回头客了。

You're not going to have those return customers.

我不知道玛乔丽身上发生了什么。

I don't know what happened to Marjorie.

她是个好女人，但我不知道发生了什么。

She's a nice woman, but I don't know what happened.

我想她是迷失了方向。

She's lost her way, I think.

这显然让特朗普总统感到不快。

And it clearly got under president Trump's skin.

像玛乔丽·泰勒·格林这样的人现在居然迎合对方，我不知道你怎么看，我猜她可能是在演戏，但我对她感到惊讶。

Somebody like Marjorie Taylor Greene, who's now catering to the other side, I don't know what you know, I guess she's, you know, got some kind of an act on it, but I'm surprised at her.

但当像玛乔丽这样的人转向并开始发表那样的言论时，这表明她并不明白。

But when somebody like Marjorie goes over and starts making statements like that, it shows she doesn't know.

他终于表达了强烈的愤慨。

The great umbrage that he took was expressed finally.

今晚，特朗普总统与他在国会中最可靠、最直言不讳的支持者之一的分歧变得难看起来。

Tonight, disagreements between president Trump and one of his most reliable and vocal supporters in congress have taken an ugly turn.

他在Truth Social上发了一篇帖子。

With a posting that he made on Truth Social.