声称本党在政府停摆问题上处理不当的众议院共和党人

我们正生活在有趣的时代，一个历史的转折点。我们是要进入一个黑暗的威权时代，还是站在技术黄金时代或世界末日的边缘？没人真正知道答案，但我正在试图寻找。这里是《纽约时报》观点栏目，我是罗斯·杜塔特，在我的节目《有趣的时代》中，我将与塑造这个奇怪新秩序的思考者和领导者们一起探索它。请在您收听播客的任何平台关注我们。

We are living in interesting times, a turning point in history. Are we entering a dark authoritarian era, or are we on the brink of a technological golden age or the apocalypse? No one really knows, but I'm trying to find out. From New York Times Opinion, I'm Ross Douthat, and on my show, Interesting Times, I'm exploring this strange new world order with the thinkers and leaders giving it shape. Follow it wherever you get your podcasts.

先生，我能问您个问题吗？好的。我在找我们常说的那种舌下含片。对。我正想办法去国会大厦。

Sir, can I ask you a question? Yeah. I'm looking for what we like to call a little sublingual. Yes. I'm trying to get to the capital.

我正要去众议院。我们发现这里对夸张发型来说是个棘手区域。赫尔斯汀。没错。所以我们今天从华盛顿特区的德克森参议院办公大楼开始，但这并不是我们想去的地方。

I'm trying to get to the house. We found this is a little tricky area for big hair. Hulsing. Yeah. So we are starting our day here in Washington DC in the Dirksen Senate Office Building, which is not where we wanna be.

我们想去众议院那边，因为要采访一位共和党众议员——加州代表凯文·基利，他在政府停摆期间变得非常引人关注，因为他严厉批评了自己政党处理停摆的方式。此刻国会大厦的参议院区域相当忙碌，因为他们正在开会。而众议院那边没有会议，我们很好奇那边现在是什么氛围。好了，国会小地铁到站了。

We wanna be over on the house side because we're going to interview a Republican congressman there, representative Kevin Kiley of California, who's become very interesting in this moment, which is the government being shut down because he's very critical of how his party has been handling the shutdown. And at the moment, the senate side of the Capital Complex is pretty busy because they're actually in session. The house side is not in session, and we're really curious what it's gonna feel like over there. Okay. The little capital subway train has arrived.

我们坐这班吗？提醒一下，我们正在录音。这趟车平时就这么挤，还是说...

Should we go in this one? Just so you know, we are recording. Is this a normal level of busyness on this train, or is this like a

停摆期间的拥挤程度？闭嘴。很安静。你。

shutdown level of busyness? Shut up. It's quiet. You.

现在我们正穿过一条长走廊，每隔几步就是众议员办公室。由于这些议员不在，办公室外堆着些报纸。好了，到了。加州的凯文·基利。

So now we're walking through a long corridor with the house members, offices every few feet. And there's just some newspaper stacked up outside these offices because these lawmakers aren't here. Okay. Here we go. Kevin Kiley of California.

我们要敲门吗？

Do we knock?

我是迈克尔·洛博先生。很高兴认识你，也很高兴见到你。幸会。嗨，你好吗？

I'm mister Michael Lobo. Nice to meet Nice to meet too. Pleasure coming by. Hi. How are doing?

我是凯特琳。很高兴认识你。你一定是负责音频的。

I'm Caitlin. Nice to meet you. You must be in charge of audio.

抱歉，你怎么看出来的？

Sorry. How can you tell?

你好吗？

How are you?

很高兴认识你。我是《纽约时报》的迈克尔·比尔巴罗，带麦克风的电话。这里是《每日播报》。今天，共和党国会议员凯文·基利将谈谈他认为他的政党在当前时刻做错了什么，以及他独自一人为试图纠正错误而发起的运动。今天是10月31日，星期五。

Nice to meet you. Phones with a mic right From New York Times, I'm Michael Bilbaro. This is The Daily. Today, Republican congressman Kevin Kiley on what he thinks his party is getting wrong in this moment and his one man campaign to try and fix it. It's Friday, October 31.

那么，我们开始吧。好的。国会议员，我通常会说感谢你抽时间接受我们的采访，我是认真的。但老实说，现在众议院没什么大事发生。但你在这里，而且自政府停摆开始以来，你几乎每天都在这里，就是为了表明一个观点。

So should we let's get started. Okay. Congressman, I would normally say thank you for making time for us, and I mean that. But if we're being honest, there's not a ton going on here right now in the house. But you are here, and you have been here pretty much every day since the shutdown started to make a point.

那么具体是什么观点呢？嗯，我想

And what is that point exactly? Well, I'd like

我认为这不仅仅是表达观点，虽然确实也关乎表达观点。明白吗？实质上，我只是想与在场的人进行建设性对话，已经进行了不少这样的对话，而且这里的人越来越多了。几周前还比较冷清，现在虽然比国会开会时那种惯常的混乱场面安静得多。但我也想说，是的。

to think it's a about a little more than making a point, although it is also about making a point. You know? So substantively, I'm trying to just have constructive conversations with whoever's around and have had a number of those, and there are increasingly more people here. Back a few weeks ago, it was a little more lonely, and it's still much quieter than when you have the usual chaos of of congress in session. But I also am trying to say, yeah.

我们应该在这里。而议长已经决定无限期休会。

We should be here. And the speaker has made the decision to recess the house indefinitely.

基本上，算是关闭了

Basically, to kind of close it

某种意义上。嗯，是的。正是如此。因为我们本该在这五周内开会。众议院有预先制定的日程表，但现在所有的立法事务都被取消了。

in a sense. Well, yeah. Exactly. Because we were supposed to be in session these five weeks. Like, the house has a schedule that is set in advance, but all of the legislative business of the house has been canceled.

我从未见过这种情况。更不用说现在政府还在可怕的停摆中，而我们甚至不在这里为解决危机出任何力。

And I've never seen anything like this. Not to mention the fact that this terrible government shutdown is going on, and we're not here to play any part in trying to find a way out of it.

没错。实际上，这些事似乎并非毫无关联。所以你在这里，看起来像是一种抗议行为。你觉得是这样吗？

Right. In fact, those don't seem unrelated. Right. And so you being here, it seems like, is a kind of act of protest. Does that feel right to you?

我认为这只是对决定的一种抵抗行为

An act of resistance against the decision to I think I just

可以称之为以身作则。就像我说的，我们应该在这里，所以我就在这里。嗯，

characterize it as practicing what I preach. I'm like, you know, I'm saying we should be here, so I'm here. Well,

我想解释一下为什么此刻我们要与你交谈。你是少数公开表达对共和党当前处理国家多项问题方式感到不满的共和党人之一，包括政府停摆和基本上关闭众议院的决定。除此之外，你对共和党进行党派性选区重划的方式也表示强烈不满，这直接影响到你，我们稍后会谈到。我希望，理解你所有的这些抱怨和不满，或许能真正揭示华盛顿当前运作——或者说失灵——的方式，在这个相当重要的时刻？这就是我们想与你交谈的原因。

I just wanna explain why we're talking to you in this moment. You're the pretty rare Republican to express some public frustration with how your party is approaching several issues facing the country right now, including, of course, the handling of the shutdown, the decision to basically close down the house. In addition to that, you've expressed some real frustration with how Republicans are carrying out partisan redistricting, which impacts you pretty directly, and we'll get to that. And I think understanding all of those complaints and frustrations that you have can, I hope, shed some real light on the way Washington works right now or doesn't work right now at this pretty important time? So that's that's why we wanna talk to you.

我认为要进行这次对话，我们需要理解你对我刚才概述的那些情况所持的视角，以及你所代表的选区。你是一名加州众议院共和党人。他们确实存在。我想54个席位中有9个...现在有9个。

And I think to have this conversation, we need to understand the perspective that you bring to those situations I just outlined and understand the district you represent. You're a California house Republican. They do exist. I think there are nine out of 54 of the There are nine now.

实际上在上次选举前有12个。现在我们9对9。

There are actually 12 before the last election. Now we're nine to nine.

你是在拜登总统任期内第一次也是唯一一次中期选举中当选的。

And you're elected in the first and the only midterm of the Biden presidency.

没错。2022年。

That's correct. 2022.

当时那是个相当安全的共和党席位。你获得了时任总统特朗普——前总统特朗普的背书。当你赢得那个席位时，共和党突然控制了众议院。我想知道你在宣誓就职时如何看待自己的使命？那一刻是为了制衡拜登总统吗？

And at the time, it's a fairly safe Republican seat. You get president Trump former president Trump at the time's endorsement. And when you win that seat, Republicans suddenly control the house. And I wonder what you saw as your mission when you were being sworn in. Was it to be a check on president Biden at that moment?

是与他和民主党人合作吗？你如何看待这个角色？

Is it working with him and the Democrats? How did you see that role?

是的。这个选区用个不太准确的说法，其实算是个紫色选区。我的意思是，2020年特朗普总统以大约1.5个百分点的优势赢得该选区，大概领先3.5个百分点

Yeah. And the district is is really kind of a purple district for lack of a better word. I mean, president Trump won it by about a point and a half in 2020 by, about three and a half points

嗯哼。

Mhmm.

在2024年。这一直影响着我的观点——我代表的是一群观点迥异、关注议题完全不同的人。因此在2023年上任时，我想...嗯...我确实将提供制衡视为自己角色的一部分，因为你知道，在加利福尼亚州，我们有点像一党独大。我们拥有绝对多数优势。

In 2024. So that has always informed my perspective as well that I represent folks who have very different views and who care about very different issues. And so coming in in 2023, I guess Mhmm. I did see it part of my role as providing something as a counterweight because, you know, in California, we have this kind of one party state. We have a super duper majority.

而且，你知道的...民主党...是的。甚至抛开党派视角，单就本州治理方式而言，已经严重偏向某个方向。再加上拜登政府的一些政策叠加其上。所以我说，听着——

And, you know Democratic. Yeah. Even beyond sort of the partisan lens is just that the way that the state has been governed has veered very far in one direction. And then you kind of had layered on top of that some of the policies of the Biden administration. And so I said, look.

只要能与拜登政府合作的地方，我会合作。当为了选区利益必须反对他们时，我也会这么做。

Where I'm able to work with the Biden administration, I will. When it's necessary to oppose them for the what's best for our district, I'll do that too.

明白了。那么在2024年大选后，你成功连任。当然，华盛顿的一切都因唐纳德·特朗普击败卡玛拉·哈里斯、夺回白宫而改变。突然间，政府的每个分支都被你们党派控制，理论上这对像你这样的众议院共和党人来说是梦想成真。但随着时间的推移——这也正是我们要讨论的——你遇到了一些挫折。

Got it. And then after the twenty twenty four election, you're reelected. And, of course, everything changes here in Washington because Donald Trump beats Kamala Harris, takes back the White House. Suddenly, every branch of the government is controlled by your party, which in theory is a dream come true for a house republican like you. But over time, and this is what we're gonna be talking about, you encounter some frustrations.

我想谈谈这段逐渐走向某种幻灭感的历程。现在最激烈的表现似乎是你对政府停摆的不满，但我的感觉是，这种情绪早在众议院共和党领袖开始就重新划分选区做决定时就初现端倪。嗯哼。重划国会选区地图。你能详细说说这个过程吗？

And I wanna talk about that journey toward what feels like some level of disillusionment. It feels now like it's taking its loudest form with your frustration over the shutdown, but my sense is that it begins a little bit earlier when House Republican leaders start making decisions around redistricting Mhmm. Redrawing congressional maps. So can you talk us through that?

我早在数月前就开始提出担忧，当时各种迹象已经表明全国将出现这种选区重划的多米诺骨牌效应——各州会相继重划选区线，以便让掌控该州政治的政党获利。

I started raising concerns about this many, many months ago when sort of the writing was on the wall that there was gonna be this, you know, redistricting domino effect across the country where one state after another would redraw their district lines in order to advantage whatever party controlled, the state politics in that

特定州。先说清楚。对吧？这件事始于特朗普总统要求多个州——首先是德克萨斯——重划他们的国会选区地图，以在未来众议院选举中最大化共和党优势。

particular state. Just to be clear. Right? This this begins with president Trump asking several states, first Texas, to redraw their house congressional maps to maximize Republican Party advantage in future house races.

这当然是一种表述方式。但现实是这种现象由来已久。像划分选区这种操作从建国初期就存在。如果你问德克萨斯人，他们可能会说'我们只是在回应纽约或其他已经划分过选区的州'。但这种'用同样手段抵消对方优势'的逻辑，只会导致一场损害各地民主的恶性竞争。

So that's certainly one way to frame it. But, I mean, the reality is this has been going on for a long time. Like, gerrymandering is as old as the country itself. So, certainly, if you ask the people in Texas, they'd probably say, oh, we're, you know, responding to New York or some other state that has gerrymandered their state. But I think that, you know, the logic of this that responding to what a prior state has done in order to sort of cancel them out, it just leads to this sort of race to the bottom that degrades democracy everywhere.

请具体解释为什么你认为这会损害各地的民主。

And just explain why it degrades democracy everywhere in your mind.

对。人们常说的基本观点是：应该由选民选择代表，而不是代表选择选民。当政客为了自己偏好的结果而随意改动选区界线时，这实际上严重削弱了...

Yeah. So, I mean, the basic line that you sometimes hear is that voters should choose their representatives. Representatives shouldn't choose their voters. Alright. And when you sort of are moving district lines around in order to arrive at the outcome that is preferred by incumbent politicians, then it really limits the agency of

关于选民。

Of the voter.

关于选民选择他们州或政体的命运。这是一个原因。我的意思是，在十年中期这样做也会极其不稳定。

Of the voter to sort of choose the destiny of their state or their polity. That's one one reason. I mean, it's also just incredibly destabilizing when you do it mid decade.

没错。嗯，那是关键的一句话，我只是想确保听众理解它。现在发生的事情如此不寻常之处在于，总统要求重新划分众议院选区，而不遵循常规等待人口普查告诉我们每个选区有多少人的制度。就像你说的，这叫十年中期重新划分选区。非常不寻常。

Right. Well, that that's the important phrase, and I just wanna make sure listeners understand it. What's so unusual about what's happening right now is that the president asked that house districts be redrawn outside of the normal system of waiting for the census to tell us how many people live in a district. Like you said, it's called mid decade redistricting. Very unusual.

据我理解，这实际上引发了一系列危及你席位的事件。所以我想先谈谈那是什么感觉，然后再谈谈你要求共和党领导层做什么。

And my understanding is it literally touches off a chain of events that start to endanger your seat. So I wanna talk about, first of what that felt like, but then what you asked the Republican leadership to do.

是的。完全同意。我从一开始就说过，这种事不应该在任何地方发生。我反对在德克萨斯州这样做，也反对在加利福尼亚州这样做。

Yeah. Absolutely. I said from the moment this kind of was on my radar that it shouldn't be happening anywhere. I'm against it in Texas. I'm against it in California.

这是纯粹的政治机会主义。所以我刚提出了一项非常简单的法案，

It's pure political opportunism. So I just introduced a bill, a very simple bill that

说在八月。

says in August.

是的，这听起来没错。这意味着除非根据《投票权法案》联邦法院做出极少数例外裁决，否则十年中期不得重新划分选区。也就是说，我们目前在各州看到的这些选区重划的把戏都不被允许。这将宣告选区划分战争中的休战与停火。

Yeah. That sounds right. That says you cannot redistrict mid decade with the very narrow exceptions of a federal court decision under the Voting Rights Act. And so that would say that none of these redistricting shenanigans that we're seeing in any state are allowed to happen. It would say this is a a truce, a ceasefire in the redistricting war.

我们都可以继续按照上次人口普查时划定的选区开展代表工作。

We could all move on with our lives representing the districts as they were drawn at the time of the last census.

那么反应如何？因为按程序你是众议院共和党人。若想推动这项立法，必须将其提交给领导层。

And what was the response? Because the way this works is you are a house Republican. If you want this legislation to go anywhere, you need to bring it to the leadership.

没错。领导层一直不愿将其提交全院表决，我已多次在公开和私下场合敦促他们这样做。我确实相信...

That's right. Yeah. So leadership has been unwilling to bring it to the floor, and I have urged them to do so publicly and privately and repeatedly. And I do believe that it

为什么？他们为何不愿提交表决？

is Why? Why won't they bring it to the floor?

我不知道。我...我已经多次要求他们，但...但始终未果。我认为如果真能提交表决，将会获得大量支持，因为不断有同僚向我表示他们认为这对他们和国家都是正确的事。我指的不只是那些席位可能不保的人，比如得州的共和党人。我说的是得州的国会议员们。

I don't know. I I've I've asked them to do it, and and and it hasn't happened. And I think that if it did come to the floor, it would have a lot of support because I have members who me all the time that they think this is the right thing for them and and for the country. And I don't just mean the people whose seats are gonna be in jeopardy, like the Republicans in Texas. And I'm talking about the the members of congress from Texas.

他们强烈反对得州这次重划选区的企图。谁愿意看到自己的选区突然被肢解或颠覆呢？

They were very much opposed to this attempt to redistrict in Texas. Don't They wanna see their district suddenly butchered or upended.

没错。而且为了明确起见，听起来对你而言，这既是关于党派在十年中期重新划分选区时是非对错问题的原则立场，也是个人层面的——因为你的选区已成为纽瑟姆州长对德克萨斯州重新划分选区的报复目标。他希望通过重新划分加州共和党席位来最大化民主党的党派优势，而其中一个目标就是加州的第三国会选区，也就是你所在的席位。因此，通过一系列近乎荒诞的事件，始于特朗普总统下令在十年中期重新划分国会选区的举动，最终可能导致你被划出自己的选区。

Right. And and to be clear, it sounds like for you, this is both a principled position around the question of what is right and wrong when you partisan gerrymander mid decade and personal because your district has become the target of governor Newsom's retaliation to Texas's redistricting. He would like to redistrict Republican seats in California to maximize Democratic partisan advantage, and one of those seats is the Third Congressional District in California. That's your seat. So through a very kind of wild series of events, what started with president Trump ordering mid decade congressional redistricting could result in you being drawn out of your own district.

嗯，这无疑会导致我的选区被分割成六个部分，或者朝六个不同方向划分。

Well, it'll certainly result in my district, being split into six different pieces or going six different directions.

听起来不太妙。

That doesn't sound good.

是的，我一点也不喜欢这样。我确实认为在重新划分后的选区地图下我仍有可能赢得连任，但我更希望能继续代表目前构成的美好的第三选区。

No. I don't like that at all. I do think I could still win reelection under the gerrymandered map, but I very much would prefer to continue to represent the beautiful Third District as currently constituted.

没错。但直白地说，在这种非常特殊的情况下，听起来你党派的领导层愿意在理论上牺牲你，以换取党派持续控制国会，并且拒绝考虑提出阻止此事的法案。

Right. But to put it pretty bluntly, and this is a very unusual situation, it sounds like your party's leaders are willing to sacrifice you, in theory, for the party's ongoing control of congress and refusing to entertain the idea of introducing a bill that would stop that.

我不清楚他们的动机是什么，但他们的不作为确实令人沮丧。我只要求对法案进行投票，我认为如果提交表决，法案会获得通过。

I don't know what their motivations are, but their inaction is frustrating, certainly. All I'm asking for is is a vote on the bill, and I think that if it came to the floor, would pass.

好的。看来这对你而言显然是一个充满挫败感的生存危机时刻。不久之后，由于这一切都发生在极短的时间内，政府停摆发生了。而你将停摆归咎于民主党，我理解这有一定道理——他们为抗议国内医保状况而拒绝投票通过支出法案。

Okay. So that seems like a very clear existential even moment of building frustration for you. And not long after that, because this has all happened in a very compressed period of time, we get the shutdown. And you have blamed Democrats for the shutdown, and I would understand why that makes some sense. They withheld their votes to approve a spending bill to protest the health care situation in the country.

然而，一旦政府停摆，你就成了反对的声音，批评约翰逊议长和共和党领导人为何不在停摆期间让众议院继续运作。我想知道你是否能带我们回顾那一刻，以及你当时如何试图说服他们众议院应在停摆期间保持运作。

And yet, once the government is shut down, you become this voice of disapproval that speaker Johnson and Republican leaders won't keep the house in session during the shutdown. And I wonder if you can take us back to that moment and what you tried to do to make the case to them that the house should stay in session despite the shutdown.

其实我不觉得这个立场很难辩护。对吧？众议院本来就该在这里运作，我们有事要做。我不明白为什么这个立场会被视为特别激进。

Well, I'm not really sure it's a hard case to make. Right? Like, the house is supposed to be here. We have things to do. I don't understand why this is a particularly radical position to take.

众议院根本没有理由关门。

There's no reason for the house of representatives to close its doors.

那么，约翰逊议长最初提出这样做的理由是什么？这不是草率决定的吧？还是说就是？

Well, what was the argument there was be was put forth by speaker Johnson to do it in the first place? It it wasn't just done summarily, was it, or was it?

基本上就是草率决定。我们最后一次投票是关于持续决议案的。虽然我不喜欢持续决议案，认为这是糟糕的治理方式，但我还是投了赞成票。

Pretty much. I mean, we just know, the last vote we had was on the CR. You know? I voted for the CR even though I don't like CRs, and I think they're a bad way to govern the resolution.

这是一项能让政府获得资金的法案。

A bill that would keep the government funded.

没错。我投赞成票是因为两害相权取其轻——政府停摆的后果太严重了。我当然希望舒默参议员能让参议院通过持续决议案，但我也说过：这就是政治。

Yeah. Exactly. I mean, I voted for it as the lesser of two evils because a government shutdown has such terrible consequences. And I do wish that senator Schumer would pass the CR out of the senate, but I've also said, look. This is politics.

有时你必须设法与立场不同的人合作，才能找到对国家最有利的共同点。这就是为什么众议院应该在这里的另一个原因，也是为什么在此时众议院的存在更为重要。

Sometimes you have to find a way to work with people who have a different position than you have in order to find the common ground that's best for the country. So that's another reason that the house ought to be here, why it's more even more important that the house is here during

停摆期间。实际上应该就如何准确结束停摆进行对话。

a shutdown. Actually have a conversation about ending Exactly. The shutdown.

就目前情况而言，这些对话主要发生在参议院，因为参议院实际上在这里处理日常事务的同时也在努力促成这些对话。

And as things are, those conversations are happening mostly in the senate because the senate's actually here attending to its ordinary business as well as trying to find have those conversations.

简而言之，你们党的领导层不愿要求你们在此时履行职责，你对此有何感受？

I mean, in a word, what does it feel like to you to have your party's leadership not be willing to ask you all to do your jobs during this moment?

嗯，感觉我们被剥夺了为选民争取利益的机会，我们所有人——

Well, it feels like we're being deprived of the opportunity to fight for our constituents that we all

不是一个词，但好吧。那是什么？我总开玩笑说‘简而言之’就是个词。简而言之。

not a word, but fine. What's that? I always joke it's an in a word. In a word.

确实。糟糕？这算一个词吗？

That's true. Bad? Is that a word?

这是个词。我想你称之为尴尬。我的意思是，你传达了这个想法，认为这有损机构尊严。

That's a word. I think you called it embarrassing. I mean, I you you've you've conveyed the idea that this is just kind of beneath the institution.

我也认为这很尴尬。就像，你知道的，众议院竟然不在这里。

I do think it's embarrassing. Like, to have the, you know, the the house of representatives just not here.

没错。重要工作被搁置了。对众多机构的监督、潜在法案的审议，这类事情都没在进行。还有关于政府停摆的非常紧迫的问题也无人处理。

And Right. The serious work is not being done. Oversight of any number of institutions, reviews of potential legislation. I mean, nothing of that kind is being done. And then there are the very, very urgent questions around the shutdown that are not being addressed.

我们就说其中一个问题——SNAP福利。嗯。这是联邦政府提供的补贴，让数千万美国人能养活自己和家人。这些补贴将在未来24到48小时内耗尽。我们是在周四和你对话。

So let's just talk about one of them, SNAP benefits. Mhmm. This is subsidies from the federal government that allow tens of millions of Americans to feed themselves and their family. They're gonna run out within the next, I think, twenty four to forty eight hours. We're talking to you on Thursday.

所以到了周末，大概是11月1日，补贴就会用完。而众议院休会意味着你们无法制定应对方案。参议院正在讨论...

So over the weekend, I think November 1, they're gonna run out. And the house not in session means you guys can't come up with a plan to address that. The senate is talking about

对。

Right.

可能结束这种情况的计划。目前还没有具体方案成形。但就算有了，你们也无法进行表决。

Potential plans to end that. Nothing concrete has yet come together. But if it did, you couldn't even vote on it.

是的，没错。我实际上正在共同发起一项法案，主张即便政府停摆，也应继续发放SNAP福利。但由于众议院不在场，目前无法对该法案进行表决。

Yeah. Exactly. I'm actually cosponsoring a bill that says even if the government is shut down, we should continue providing SNAP benefits. But there's no opportunity to vote on that bill because the house isn't here.

对。目前没有会期来提出这项决议。我是说，让我们聚焦这次政府停摆的核心问题——医疗保健。民主党人可能会列举多个停摆理由，但根本原因在于医疗费用将在年底前飙升，导致数百万美国人无法获得医疗服务。

Right. There's no session in which to introduce the resolution. I mean, let's move to the central question of this shutdown, which is health care. Right? I mean, the Democrats would say there are a number of reasons why they shut the government down, but the primary reason is that health care costs are gonna be surging, especially towards the end of the year, and it's gonna make health care inaccessible to millions and millions of Americans.

那么你希望贵党在停摆谈判中采取或不采取什么行动来推动这个议题的解决？我们知道民主党人的诉求是要求你们批准即将到期的《平价医疗法案》补贴，这些补贴的失效正导致医疗费用大幅上涨。假设众议院能重新开会，你们的诉求是什么？

So what do you want to see your party do or not do to bring that subject any kind of resolution in these shutdown negotiations? Because we know what the Democrats say they want. They want you all to approve subsidies for the Affordable Care Act that will expire that are making health care much more expensive. What do you want if we presume for the moment that the house would ever reopen.

确实。我非常担忧ACA补贴问题。我和本党许多同仁及对方党派人士都认为必须找到解决方案。我相信双方都有足够意愿达成协议，但具体形式尚待观察。

Right. I'm very concerned about the ACA subsidy issue. So I'm one of a number of people on my side of the aisle in addition to many on the other side of the aisle who believe there needs to be some sort of solution here. And I do believe that there's enough interest on both sides there's gonna be a deal. What that looks like, it remains to be seen.

会是长期延期还是短期延期？这些都需要协商。共和党领导层认为在政府停摆的要挟下无法进行任何形式的谈判，这种立场我能理解。但我也记得几年前共和党在债务上限问题上持完全相反的立场，当时声称除非附带政策改革，否则不会通过单纯提高债务上限的法案。

Is it gonna be a long term extension? Is it gonna be a short term extension? All those things would need to be negotiated. You know, the Republican leadership has taken this view that, well, we just can't negotiate about anything in any form when the leverage that's being held over us is a shutdown government, which, you know, I certainly understand that perspective. But at the same time, I do remember a couple years ago when Republicans were taking, you know, basically the opposite position with respect to the debt ceiling, saying we're not gonna pass a bill for a clean extension of the debt ceiling unless we get policy changes along the way.

这也是我认为我们现在至少应该展开对话的另一个原因。

And so that's another reason why I think that we should at least be having conversations right now.

没错。如果我说你面对这些连锁危机显得相当困惑，这个判断是否准确？请纠正我的误解。

Right. It it feels fair to say, correct me if I'm wrong, that you're pretty much bewildered that amid all these cascading crises stemming from

这

the

政府停摆，看起来会让许多美国人的生活变得相当艰难，而议长却不让众议院复会来解决这些问题。我想知道你认为议长为何拒绝改变方针。

shutdown, that seem like they're gonna make life pretty miserable for a lot of Americans, that the speaker is not bringing the house back into session to address them. And I wonder why you think the speaker is refusing to change course.

我不知道他真正的理由是什么，或者说，我不想这么说。

I don't know what his real reason is or, I mean, not to say this.

打个电话？

Pick up the phone?

我...我已经和他谈过了。当然。我的意思是，我不想，你知道的，透露私人对话内容，但我至今没得到任何合理的解释。

I I have talked to him. Sure. I mean, I don't wanna, you know, share private conversations, but I haven't gotten any explanation that makes sense to

我的意思是，把所有这些综合起来看，这些都是你的不满。它们非常明确。我认为我们现在需要讨论一下你以及可以说许多众议院共和党同僚在制造你们现在反对的局面中可能扮演的角色。你可能会反对我这么说，但当然，我们稍作休息后我很愿意讨论这个话题。

I mean, just to to bring this all together, I mean, these are your complaints. They're very clear. And I think we now need to talk about the role that you and, arguably, many of your House Republican colleagues may have played in creating the circumstances that you now object to. And you may object to me saying that, but Sure. I'd like to talk about that right after we take a short break.

我们马上回来。

We'll be right back.

你好，我是西德尼·哈珀，负责参与制作《每日播报》。有天晚上十点，正在筹备次日节目的同事急需一段录音素材来提升节目效果。他们追踪到这段录音存放在一所大学图书馆，而那家图书馆恰巧在我家附近。

Hi. This is Sydney Harper, and I help make The Daily. One night, it's 10PM. My colleagues working on the next day's episode are looking for a speech, this piece of tape that they really need to make the episode sing. They've tracked it down to a university library, and that library happens to be close to my house.

于是我立刻驱车穿越城区赶到图书馆，在闭馆前复制了录音文件，上传到电脑后发送给节目组的同事。这段素材最终被用在第二天的节目中，确实让节目增色不少。整个行动非常成功。我讲这个故事是因为，人们可能意识不到你们听到的每期《每日播报》背后，都凝聚着这种程度的团队协作与奉献精神。

So I hop into a car, I head across town, I get to the library, they're about to close, I'm copying the tape, uploading it to my computer, sending it off to my colleagues working on the episode. It makes it into the show the next day. It really helps make it shine. The whole effort is a success. And I'm telling you this because I don't think people realize that that level of teamwork and dedication goes into every episode that you hear on The Daily.

这种协作需要人力支持，需要资源投入，更需要订阅用户的支持。这就是为什么我恳请您订阅《纽约时报》——这样我们才能继续每天为您带来《每日播报》。

That sort of collaboration takes people. It takes resources. It takes support from subscribers. So that's why I'm asking you to subscribe to The New York Times so we can keep bringing you The Daily every day.

议员先生，如您所知，民主党将两项立法视为其关闭政府并维持关门状态的核心依据。您对这两项法案都投了赞成票。请允许我说明：第一项是总统的国内政策法案，他称之为'宏伟美丽法案'。除了延长减税政策外，该法案还修改了医疗补助计划的要求和工作规定，这将导致数百万人失去医疗补助的医疗保障。再加上《平价医疗法案》补贴即将到期，民主党认为这将对民众的医疗保障关系造成毁灭性财政打击。

So congressman, there are two pieces of legislation, as you know, that Democrats see as central to their case for shutting down the government and keeping it closed. You voted for both of them. Let me just explain. The first one is the president's domestic policy bill, what he calls the one big beautiful bill, which besides extending his tax cuts, changes the requirements for Medicaid, the rules, the work requirements in ways that will result in millions of people losing their health care through Medicaid. And on top of expiring subsidies for the Affordable Care Act, the argument from Democrats is that this is gonna be financially ruinous to people's relationship to health care.

由于您对该法案投了赞成票，我想了解您是否认为自己应该为民主党现在声称关闭政府的主要原因负部分责任——他们认为让这么多美国人无法获得医疗保障是根本不可容忍的。

Because you voted for that bill, I wanna understand whether you see yourself as being a little bit responsible for one of the kind of tentpole reasons why Democrats are now saying they've shut the government down, which is that they think it's just basically intolerable to have health care be inaccessible to this many Americans.

不过现在他们争论的焦点其实已经不是这个了。我知道舒默参议员最初提出时把这作为他想改变的议题之一。但刚刚通过的法案就要推翻，这种想法从来就不是可行的谈判立场。所以现在他们其实已经把争议焦点缩小到《平价医疗法案》补贴问题了。

So that's not really what they're making it about at this point, though. I know that senator Schumer threw that out there initially as one of the things he wanted to change. But the idea of sort of unraveling a bill that was just passed was never, you know, gonna be a viable negotiating position. So at this point, they've really just winnowed it down to the ACA subsidy issue.

您的意思是，您不认为'宏伟美丽法案'削减医疗补助的措施真正推动了这次政府关门？

You're trying to say that you don't think the one Big Beautiful Bill's cuts to Medicaid are really motivating for the shutdown?

嗯，他们现在要求的甚至根本不是那方面的修改。我是说，显然他们还在讨论，但真正的焦点一直是《平价医疗法案》的补贴问题，这些补贴是几年前——我是说在新冠疫情期间——设立的。没错。顺便说一句，说到HR1法案或那个所谓'又大又美的法案'（不管现在怎么称呼），最初提议的是在全国范围内大幅削减医疗补助计划，我是非常反对的。说到底，这不是个完美的法案。

Well, that's not even what they're sort of asking for at this point is altering, that. I mean, obviously, they're still talking about it, but really the focus has been on the ACA subsidies, which were created several years ago, I mean, in the COVID years. Yep. And, you know, incidentally, when it comes to HR one or the big beautiful bill, whatever it's called these days, what was initially proposed were truly significant cuts to Medicaid across the country, I was very much against. At the end of the day, not a perfect bill.

这是个庞大的立法。要知道，那些条款大多被缩减成了诸如工作要求之类的内容——我个人认为这很合理：如果你要获得纳税人资助的医疗保险，你至少应该每周找工作、工作或做20小时志愿活动。所以我不认为...况且他们现在甚至没在提这个要求，我觉得没必要把两者硬扯上关系。

It's a massive piece of legislation. You know, those were largely pared down to things like work requirements that I actually think make a lot of sense saying that if you're gonna get access to taxpayer funded health care, you should at least be looking for a job or working or volunteering twenty hours per week. So I don't think that and the fact that that's not even what they're asking for right now, I don't think you can necessarily, you know, tie the two together.

我唯一想反驳的是，根据独立机构和我们《纽约时报》同事的调查评估，那些工作要求——可能很多人会赞同——嗯...将导致数百万（我认为多达1200万）人通过医疗补助计划失去医保。所以当民主党人谈论他们希望共和党协助解决的医保危机时，这难道不正切中要害吗？

The only pushback I wanna offer here is that I believe estimates from independent groups and our colleagues at the Times who've been looking into this is that those work requirements, which many people may agree with Mhmm. Will lead to millions, I think, as many as twelve million people losing their health care through Medicaid. So I think when the Democrats have talked about a health care crisis that they want Republicans to help them address, that does feel kind of in a role?

这样，我们再看他们的诉求。最初舒默确实说过政府停摆时要推翻HR1法案几乎所有内容——这显然是不可能实现的谈判立场。但现在他们表示只聚焦于《平价医疗法案》补贴问题。我认为这个立场更合理，因为两党都有强烈意愿延长这些重要补贴。如果这些补贴突然断崖式取消，意味着数百万人将面临医疗费用大幅上涨。

Well, again, look at what they're asking for. So initially, yes, Schumer did come out and say, like, when the government shut down, we want everything in HR one reverse pretty much, which, you know, was not a negotiating position that was ever gonna go anywhere. But now they've said, let's make it about the ACA subsidy issue. And I think that's a little more reasonable ground to stand on in the sense that there's a lot of interest in both sides of the aisle on extending these subsidies, which are are significant. Like, if those go away suddenly with just this cliff, then you're talking about millions of people who are gonna be paying a lot more for health care.

好的，所以你更倾向在补贴问题上与民主党妥协，而非医疗补助。我想转向民主党援引的第二项立法——撤销拨款法案。你当时也投票支持了该法案，共和党据此批准总统要求追回国会两党先前通过的90亿美元拨款，这些资金原本用于外援、公共广播公司等项目。

Okay. So you'd prefer to meet Democrats halfway on the subsidies, not the Medicaid. I I wanna turn to the second piece of legislation that Democrats cite, which is the rescissions bill. And with that legislation, which you also voted for, Republicans approved a request from the president to claw back $9,000,000,000 in money that Congress had previously approved in a bipartisan way. And that was money for things like foreign aid, public broadcasting corporation.

民主党在政府停摆时表示：'我们无法再信任共和党同僚，因为无论医保还是其他议题，任何已达成的协议都可能被他们在总统授意下推翻，让总统而非国会成为拨款决策者，迫使众议院和参议院共和党人撕毁既有协议。'他们认为撤销拨款法案就是例证。你理解民主党的这种担忧及其对停摆的影响吗？若理解，为何仍支持撤销拨款？

And what the Democrats say in shutting down the government is we can't trust our Republican colleagues anymore because anything we agree to, whether it's on health care or anything else, we don't know that they're not gonna go back at the behest of the president and let him become the appropriator, not congress, order house republicans and senate republicans to just reverse everything that was already agreed to. That's what they think happened with the rescission bill. So do you understand that worry from Democrats and how that motivated the shutdown? And if you do, why did you vote for the rescissions?

是的，我认为这可能是他们论点中最具说服力的部分。因为我们面临这样的现实：参议院的阻挠议事规则决定了你无法仅靠党派路线法案来维持政府运转。

Yeah. So I think this is actually the most maybe sympathetic part of their argument. Because here's here's the dynamic that we're working with. Right? So the reason that that you can't just pass a a party line bill to keep the government open is because of the filibuster rule in the senate.

对吧？要通过法案，你在参议院需要60票。所以现在的情况是，没有足够的民主党人加入共和党阵营通过他们的持续决议案版本，也没有足够的共和党人加入民主党阵营通过他们的版本。因此，支出法案本质上必须是两党合作的。

Right? You need to have 60 votes in the senate to pass it. So what's happening right now is that, you don't have enough Democrats who are joining with Republicans to pass their version of the CR. You don't have enough Republicans who are joining with Democrats to pass their version of the CR. So spending bills by their very nature have to be bipartisan.

而撤销拨款法案则不同——你知道，行政部门可以将其提交国会，要求撤销已拨款项——这些法案不需要绝对多数票。是的，它们可以完全按党派路线投票通过。所以如果民主党领导人现在的立场是：我们需要确保以两党合作方式通过的内容不会被党派投票推翻，我认为这个立场并非毫无道理。这不是不合理的立场。

Whereas rescissions bills, which, you know, can be sent to congress with specific requests from the executive branch to undo appropriations that were made, those don't have the supermajority requirement. Right. They can be done in a strictly party line way. So if the position of the Democrat leaders right now is, well, we need to have some assurances that what is being done in a bipartisan way isn't gonna be undone in a party line vote, then I don't think that's a necessarily unreasonable position. It's not an unreasonable position.

这不是不合理的立场。换句话说，这是

It's not an unreasonable position. So in other words, it is

合理的。那你为什么投票支持撤销拨款？

a reasonable So then why did you vote for the rescission?

这两个问题完全不相干，对吧？

Well, the those are totally separate questions. Right?

你可以

You can

因为你可能认为某项撤销拨款实际上是好事，同时也能理解另一方的观点：既然当初拨款时他们有发言权，那么撤销时他们也该有发言权。好吧。

because you can believe that a particular rescission is actually a good thing while also sort of understanding the view that one side wants to be able to have a say in rescissions when they have a say in in making the appropriations in the first place. Okay.

我只是想确认自己理解正确，因为我实在不明白你怎么能同时持有这两种立场。如果撤销拨款从根本上破坏了以原则性方式达成两党支出协议的过程——正如你所说这确实存在问题——那你怎么能接受这种做法呢？

And I just wanna make sure I understand because I'm not entirely clear on how you can hold both of those positions Yeah. At the same time. If rescissions fundamentally undermine the process of bipartisan agreement on spending in a principled way that seems problematic, which you're suggesting, then how can you ever be okay with doing that?

嗯，你可以设想一个两党都支持的撤销拨款案。对吧？比如说...

Well, you can imagine a bipartisan rescission. Right? So let's say that

从一开始这就不是那种情况。

From the beginning, this wasn't that.

对吧？是的，在那个具体案例中确实不是。但这并不意味着不可能实现，对不对？

Right? Yeah. In that particular instance, it wasn't. But that doesn't mean that you can't have it. Right?

那为什么不等到投票支持真正两党合作的方案呢？现在我正试图让你对之前的决定负点责任。

So let's say Why not wait to vote for the one that is bipartisan? Here, I am attempting to hold you a little bit accountable for what you did.

当然，当然。不，我理解这点。但我想说清楚，我认为最终通过的那个撤销拨款法案并不是理想版本。

Sure. Sure. No. I understand that. But, I mean and and to be clear, I think that the rescissions bill that that did pass was not the ideal version of what a rescissions bill should look like.

这么说是否合理：你可能承受了相当大的压力才投票支持那个撤销拨款法案？如果我理解正确，其实原则上你并不太认同那个方案？

I mean, is it fair to assume that there's a meaningful amount pressure that you may have felt to vote for a rescissions bill that I'm I'm hearing you correctly on principle, you don't really like all that much?

不，我是说，我认为那份撤销法案也有其可取之处。重申一下，撤销程序是合法的。这是众议院拥有的权力。因此在当时，我们能够通过简单多数门槛撤回那些被认为不必要或不良的支出。

No. I mean, I think there were good things about that rescissions bill as well. And, again, rescissions are a legal process. Like, it's a power that the House has. And so at that point in time, we had the ability to pull back spending that was viewed as not good or not necessary in a simple majority threshold.

但完全有理由说，如果你是当时反对的一方，那么好吧，我们也有能力搁置未来的支出法案，直到获得关于这些情况将如何处理的具体保证。

But it's perfectly reasonable to then say if you're the party that was on the other end of that, alright. Well, we also have the ability to hold up a a future spending bill until we get assurances as to how those situations are gonna be handled in

未来。这正是民主党人现在所做的。他们在问：我们如何能信任这种情况不会重演？我提问的原因——或许你已经察觉——是因为到目前为止，我从你这里感受到的是对党内领导人处理政府停摆方式的不满。

the future. Which which is what Democrats are doing right now. They're saying how can we trust, right Right. That this won't happen again. I mean, the reason I'm asking you these questions, and perhaps you've intuited it, is because so far, I'm getting from you frustration around how the shutdown has been overseen by the leaders of your party.

当然，这指的是约翰逊议长及其副手未召集众议院复会。但我想进一步了解：你是否认为自己的投票行为对导致停摆的局势负有个人责任？包括民主党人对撤销程序的不信任，以及国内医保系统的变动。你能理解这种观点吗？

And, of course, that's speaker Johnson, his deputies for not calling the house back into session. But I'm trying to also understand if you feel that the votes you've taken create any personal responsibility for the circumstances that led to the shutdown, that deficit of trust that the Democrats feel around rescissions as well as the changes to the health care system in the country. I mean, can you see that argument? I mean,

我当然能理解，从哈基姆·杰弗里斯或查克·舒默等人的视角来看，鉴于今年已发生的事件，他们希望运用一切可用工具在未来政策中获得更多话语权。就撤销程序而言，我理解这种立场。同时，ACA补贴问题也确实重要。但我们必须认识到，政府停摆正在给国家带来极其严重的后果——数百万人无法获得SNAP福利，超百万员工被迫休假或停薪，空管人员难以维持航班准点等等。

I I could certainly understand, you know, that given what has happened so far this year from the perspective of someone like Hakim Jeffries or Chuck Schumer, they wanna use whatever tools they have available in order to be able to have more of a say in policy going forward. So, you know, I understand that position as far as it concerns the rescissions. And, you know, I think as well the ACA subsidy issue is is an important one. But we, at the same time, need to recognize that, like, a government shutdown is having terrible, terrible consequences for the country. And so the reality of folks not getting their SNAP benefits of a million plus workers either being furloughed or not getting paycheck to air traffic controllers, you know, not able to to keep the plane schedule running on time and everything else that comes with that.

因此我们需要正视现实：现在确实有很多人正在遭受切实的痛苦。

So we need to kinda keep ourselves grounded in that reality. Right? That there are people that are really suffering right now.

关于选区重划我有个相关问题。你曾对议长未采纳你提出的禁止十年中期重划法案表示失望，称这种行为威胁民主。但我想追问：这次重划——正如我之前稍提到的——并非约翰逊议长授意，而是特朗普总统要求的。你是否对总统最初下达该指令感到愤怒？

I have a related question about redistricting. You expressed dismay that the speaker didn't take up your proposed bill to ban mid decade redistricting, which you described as a threat to democracy. But I do wanna push you on the idea that that redistricting, and and I did this a little bit earlier, didn't come at the behest of speaker Johnson. It came at the behest of of president Trump, the mid decade redistricting. Are you upset with the president for ordering that in the first place?

如果你是，为什么不批评总统发起这件事？

And if you are, why not criticize the president for initiating it?

因为这事关众议院。我是说，议长是众议院的领袖。确实如此。他是我们会议的代表。而且，我觉得如果他当初对此采取强硬立场，我们现在就不会陷入这种境地。

Well, because this concerns the house of representatives. So, I mean, the the speaker is the leader of the house. Sure does. He's the representative of our conference. And, you know, I feel like if he had taken a strong position on this, then we wouldn't be where we are right now.

所以，你知道，总统但是

And so, you know, the president But

这难道不是在立法程序上退了两步吗？本来可以通过法律手段阻止总统作为三军统帅的行为

isn't that, like, kind of two steps down the process of being willing to take up a law to prevent something that the commander in chief of the president

我是说，他连法律程序都没走。他本可以公开表态，或在与白宫的对话中更强烈地表达立场。

I mean, he didn't even just do do a law. He could have taken a public position or advocated more strongly in conversations with the White House.

你希望众议院议长对总统说不，但这并不是他真正会做的事。

You wanted house speaker to say no to the president, which is not something he really does.

我认为众议院议长是立法机构的代表。因此当涉及特别关乎立法机构的事务时，议长显然需要并会希望与总统在政策上保持一致。但就众议院作为机构而言，他是这个机构的领导者。所以我真正要问责的是他保护众议院这一机构并代表我们议员的责任。

I mean, I think that the speaker of the house is the representative of the legislative branch. So when it comes to things that specifically concern the legislative branch, obviously, the speaker needs to be and will want to be in alignment with the president on policy. But when it comes to the house as an institution, he's the leader of the house as an institution. So he's the one that I really hold accountable for protecting the house of the rep of the institution and representing our members.

我是说，我认为你大概触及了我更深层的疑问——在政府停摆期间每天露面，声称当前众议院休会状态是错误的，你此刻是否在打正确的战役？还是忽略了更宏大的斗争？即总统对国会、特别是对你这样的众议院共和党人所做的一切，以及他要求你们在这个时代成为的角色（许多人会认为——请随时打断我若你不同意——迄今为止你们基本成了他议程的橡皮图章，无论是医保、医疗补助，还是随心所欲重划国会选区等）。所以确切地说，近代每位总统

I mean, I think you you're probably getting at my larger curiosity here, which is in showing up every day during the shutdown and and saying that what's happening right now, the house not being in session, and saying that that's wrong, are you fighting the right battle in this moment, or are you missing the larger fight, which is what the president has done to congress, to house republicans like you in particular, and what he's asked you all to become in this era, which many would regard as, and please interrupt me if you disagree, so far a kind of rubber stamp for his agenda on things like health care, on things like Medicaid, on redrawing congressional maps whenever he wants, and so on. So in a very, like, definite sense, what every president in recent memory

都试图对国会施加最大影响力。嗯。对吧？这点我认为无可争议。白宫设立立法事务办公室并配备大量人员正是为此。

has tried to exert as much influence as they can over congress. Mhmm. Right? This is I don't think that's even debatable. That's the entire reason they have an office of of legislative affairs in the White House that has a lot of people.

是啊。而且那些人总在我们华盛顿这边活动。

Yeah. And that's constantly over on our side of of Washington.

但没人能像特朗普那样娴熟地操控国会？

But no one has done it with the skill of Donald Trump?

当然。众议院本就有责任与白宫合作推进共同价值观和议程，但同时也要维护宪法第一条赋予的机构完整性。因此

Well, sure. It's the job of the house to work with the White House to advance the the values and the agenda that we share, but also to maintain the integrity of of the house in article one as an institution. And so

你认为这种完整性得以维持了吗？我听一些资深人士半开玩笑地说'国会已名存实亡'。这或许过于极端，但你是否担忧在现任总统和议长主导下，国会正滑向可有可危的境地？

Do you think that's being maintained? I've heard some very knowledgeable people say, and perhaps it's somewhat in jest, that congress is over right now. Maybe that's an extraordinary overstatement, but do you worry that congress's place in this dynamic under this president, under the speaker, is taking you closer to a relevance that is at all required.

我觉得这太夸张了。要知道政府停摆的根本原因正是国会未通过拨款法案。对吧？这恰恰证明了国会的重要性。不是吗？

I I think that's hyperbolic. Mean, whole reason we have a shutdown is that the congress has not funded the government. Right? And so That's that's relevance. Right?

而这种相关性是以一种不好的方式存在的，对吧？

And that's that's relevance in kind of, like, a bad way. Right?

但从民主党角度来看，是什么让众议院共和党人和国会共和党人在此刻显得重要？

But from the Democrats. Like, what makes house Republicans and congressional Republicans relevant in this moment?

我只是说，这清楚地展示了财权如何掌握在众议院手中。众议院未能采取行动，这就是分权制在运作。但更大的问题是众议院本身没有履行职责，这不是白宫做出的决定。

I'm just saying this is a clear example of how, you know, the power of the purse lies with the house. The house has failed to act. So that's just kind of the separation of powers at work. But, I mean, the bigger issue is that the house itself hasn't shown up. And so that's not something that, you know, has been a decision of the White House.

这也不是参议院民主党领袖查克·舒默的决定，而是众议院议长和我们自己领导层的决定。这就是为什么我一直关注我们自己的领导层，试图鼓励他们做正确的事并让我们回归正轨——而且不止我一个人这么想，还有许多其他人也发声了，我认为这实际上是我们会议中多数人的意见。

It's not something that's been a decision of of of Chuck Schumer, the Democrats over in the Senate. It's a decision that's been made by the speaker of the house and our own leadership. And that's why I've been focusing on our own leadership and trying to encourage them to do the right thing and bring us back, and I'm not the only one. There are a number of others who have spoken up, and I think that's actually a majority opinion among our conference at this point.

这是否最终不可避免地会引发质疑：如果会议多数成员不满意现状，这位议长是否还应继续担任议长？

I mean, does that ultimately and inevitably lead to questions about whether this speaker should be speaker if the majority of the conference does not like what is happening here?

我...我认为现在不是提出这些问题的时机。我是说，

I I don't think now is the time to raise those those questions. I mean,

有人当然...当然无法采取行动，因为

someone Certainly certainly can't be acted upon because this

对，没错。前几天有人问我，'你会投票罢免议长吗？' 当然不会，我肯定不会那么做。

Right. Exactly. Well, so someone asked me the other day, oh, are you gonna, you know, vote to vacate the speaker? No. Of course, I'm not gonna do that.

原因有很多，但特别的是，一旦罢免议长，整个众议院就会停摆。用让众议院停摆的方式来解决它本应运作的问题，这显然不是个好办法。麦卡锡被罢免时我们就经历过——众议院实际停摆了

And for a number of reasons, but in particular, like, when you vacate the speaker, literally, the house shuts down. So that's not a good remedy for the house not being here is to do something that, by definition, shuts the house down. And we actually dealt with that when McCarthy was vacated. The house literally shut down for

没错。

Right.

我记得当时停摆了三周。

I think it was three weeks then.

是的，在你们重选新议长期间。恕我直言，听起来你和其他人某种程度上认为议长是在放弃国会的职责。我就直说了。

Right. While you're reelecting somebody else. I mean, forgive me, but it does sound like you and others feel to a degree that the speaker is abdicating the role of congress. I mean, just to put that very clearly.

我不会用'放弃'这个词，这说法太严重了。但必须承认，本该开会的五周里国会——准确说是众议院——没有召开会议，导致我们在政府停摆解决方案中失去存在感，议员们无法履行选举赋予的选区代表职责。光说'我们通过了临时拨款法案'

I don't know that I'd use that word. That's a pretty loaded term. Sure. But I'd say that, certainly, not having congress in session for five weeks that we were supposed to be here or the house, I should say, has made it so the house has not been particularly relevant in terms of the path out of the shutdown, has resulted in members of the house not being able to represent our districts in the way that we were elected to do. And just saying we passed the CR.

就宣布休会不再复会，这让我们更难讨论任何实质性问题。

We're going home. We're not gonna come back has made it a lot more difficult for us to talk about any of these issues.

看来你通过现身于此，试图让你的声音被清晰听见。你已经接受了包括《纽约时报》几位同事在内的多家媒体采访。然而，我想知道你是否认为这种方式有效。政府停摆仍在持续，你在此地的出现——虽然可以理解——但并未凭一己之力改变局面。这让我不禁思考：国会此刻的立场究竟是什么？

It seems like you're trying to make your voice clearly very heard by by being here. You've done several interviews with other journalists, including my some of my colleagues at the Times. And yet, I wonder if you think it's working. The shutdown's still underway, and you being here, understandably, hasn't altered that situation single handedly. And it it makes me think about this question of of kind of what is the place of of congress right now?

在共和党掌控下的众议院，其立场又是什么？如果此刻现身工作本质上是对独立性、抵抗和抗议的展示，那么这种表现究竟会被解读为赋权之举，还是反而证明了国会的无能为力？

What's the place of the house under under republican control? If showing up for work is is what, you know, amounts at this moment to a demonstration of independence and resistance of protest, I mean, does that read as empowering, or is it instead a demonstration of congressional powerlessness?

嗯，是的，我从未幻想过仅凭自己回来就能立刻解决所有问题。但我想这或许能激励其他人也重返岗位，现在我们看到周围有更多人回来了。有更多人发声了。因此希望这能促使众议院尽快恢复运作。

Well, so, yeah, I was under no illusions that coming back, I was gonna single handedly end everything immediately. But I think that it has perhaps encouraged others to come back as well, and we see more people around now. We've seen more people speak out. And so, hopefully, this results in pressure in the house coming back soon.

要求重新开放的压力。

Pressure to reopen.

没错。正是如此。所以

Yeah. Exactly. So

我最后想问：如果如我们所料，你在加利福尼亚州第三国会选区的席位被重新划分，使民主党受益。而你参选时，新选区的化学反应就是无法让你胜出，你的政治生涯就此终结。你会作何感想？

I have a final question for you. What happens to you if, as we suspect, your seat is redrawn, the Third Congressional District in California, to the benefit of the Democrats. And you run, and the chemistry and alchemy of that new district just is not gonna get you over the line. Your time here comes to an end. I mean, how are you gonna feel?

因为正如我们对话开始时确认的，你曾竭力要求自己所属政党做你认为正确且民主（小写d的民主）的事——停止这个十年中期的选区重划，但他们无视了你。某种程度上总统也忽视了你。你是否觉得自己基本上被本党牺牲了？

Because as we established at the beginning of this conversation, you did your best to ask your own party to do what you thought was the right thing and the democratic thing, small d democratic thing, to stop this mid decade redistricting, and they're ignoring you. And the president, in some sense, is ignoring you. And, you know, will you have been basically sacrificed by your own party?

我是说，在我看来这像是在提前找借口。所以如果选区划分方案通过，我有信心能在杜马特手下赢得连任，因为在2022年上次选举中，我获得了全国竞争最激烈选区中第二多的跨党派选票。特朗普总统在我的选区以约3.5个百分点胜出，而我则以约11个百分点获胜。说到跨党派选票，我指的是那些投票给卡玛拉当总统，却投票给我当众议员的人。

I mean, that seems to me like creating a prospective excuse. So if the gerrymander goes through, I'm confident that I can win reelection under the Dumat because in the last election in 2022, I got the second most crossover votes of any competitive district in the country. President Trump won my district by about three and a half points. I won it by about 11 points. With crossover votes, I mean, folks who voted for for Kamala for president but voted for me for member of the house.

这是因为我专注于那些不具有强烈党派色彩、只关乎我所代表民众生活质量的议题。所以无论选区地图怎么划分，我都对连任之路充满信心。

And that's because I focused on issues that don't have a particularly partisan valence that just matter to the quality of life for the folks that I represent. And so I'm confident that whatever the map looks like, I'll have a a strong path to reelection.

你认为我们讨论的整个过程、你采取的公开立场、以及你敢于挑战本党领袖的作风，是否注定会让你在重划后的选区——一个不那么红的选区——成为更具吸引力的候选人？

You think this whole process of everything we're talking about and the positions you're taking in the public way that you're willing to challenge the leader of your own party inevitably just makes you a more appealing candidate to a redrawn district, a less red district?

我认为现在的所作所为只是在兑现竞选承诺，就是要成为本选区的独立声音——目前这个选区就是第三选区。

I think that what I'm doing now is simply fulfilling the promises that I ran on, like, which is that I'm gonna be an independent voice for for my district, which, know, is is the Third District as it's as it's currently

与大多数众议院共和党人相比，你听起来确实相当独立。是的。而我...

And compared to most House Republicans, you do sound quite independent. Yeah. And I

老实说，我觉得...或许这才是你问题更好的答案。我认为这一切都突显出过度党派主义是国家面临的最严重问题之一。就拿选区重划来说，我们现在讨论的是将党派偏见写入游戏规则本身，对吧？

think that, honestly, like, I I this is all maybe this is the better answer to your question. Sure. Like, I think this has all sort of served to underline the extent to which excessive partisanship is one of the most serious problems facing the country. So if you look at redistricting, like, this is now we're talking about bringing partisanship into actually the rules of the game itself. Right?

这已经深入到我们政治体系更根本的结构层面。否则就会导致政府停摆——国会连最基本的工作都无法完成，难怪公众对国会的支持率只有13%左右。所以如果你问任何人是否认为党派主义是当前国家的重大问题？

To, like, an even deeper structural level of our politics. Or you'll get the government shutdown. This is where congress can even not even do its most basic job, and you wonder why congress has, like, a 13% approval rating on the part of the public. Right? And so I think if you ask just about anyone, do you think partisanship is a big problem in the country right now?

几乎所有人都会说，这是人们唯一能达成共识的事，对吧？党派对立已经达到了顶峰，我认为这两起事件确实突显了这一点。我确实这么认为

Almost everyone would say it's like the one thing that people can agree on, right, is that partisanship has just reached peak levels, and I think that these two episodes, have really, served to emphasize that. I do think

选区重划和政府停摆。

Redistricting and the shutdown.

选区重划和政府停摆。而且，正如我所说，我当初参选时，试图弥合党派分歧是我传达的重要信息。我认为现在这个信息更加紧迫了。

The redistricting and the shutdown. And, you know, as I said, I that trying to overcome that partisan divide was a big part of my message when I first ran. I think that's an even more urgent message now.

没错。所以如果你最终被排挤出局，会有点讽刺。人们不喜欢党派对立。你尝试

Right. That's why there would be a little bit of an irony if you end up getting squeezed out of the situation. People don't like partisanship. You try

对抗党派对立。你失败了。你出局了。不过，我认为这种情况不会发生。

to fight partisanship. You fail. You lose. Well, I don't think that's gonna happen.

我们拭目以待。议员先生，非常感谢您抽空接受采访。

We will see. Well, congressman, really appreciate your time.

不客气。谢谢邀请。再见。

Of course. Thanks for having me. Cheers.

周四下午，在我们与代表凯莉交谈后，一名联邦法官对特朗普政府拒绝在政府停摆期间为贫困人群提供SNAP食品补助计划表示不满。白宫告诉法官，他们无法动用专门为SNAP项目预留的数十亿美元资金，法官称这一说法令人难以接受。与此同时，《华盛顿邮报》最新民调显示，更多美国人将政府停摆归咎于特朗普总统和国会共和党人而非民主党人——33%的人指责民主党，45%的人指责共和党。稍后回来。

On Thursday afternoon, after we spoke with representative Kylie, a federal judge expressed frustration with the Trump administration over its refusal to fund the SNAP food benefit program for the poor during the shutdown. The White House told the judge that it could not tap into billions of dollars specifically reserved for the SNAP program, a claim that the judge said was hard to accept. At the same time, a new poll from The Washington Post found that more Americans now blame the shutdown on president Trump and congressional Republicans than on Democrats. 33% blame Democrats, while 45 blame Republicans. We'll be right back.

以下是今天你需要了解的其他内容。

Here's what else you need to know today.

但总体而言，如果用0到10分来评价（10分为最佳），我认为这次会议达到了12分。K，我觉得有12分。

But overall, I guess on the scale of up from zero to 10 with 10 being the best, I would say the meeting was at twelve. K. I think it was at twelve.

周四，在与中国领导人举行高风险会晤后，特朗普总统表示两国已缓和贸易战局势，达成了一项相当于为期一年的停火协议，将逐步取消关税并恢复稀土金属供应。该协议将把美国对许多中国进口商品的关税平均税率从约57%降至47%，但关税仍处于历史高位。在纽约市长选举前几天，周四发布的两项新民调显示，社会主义民主党人佐兰·马姆达尼对两位对手保持着大幅领先优势——其中一项民调显示他领先16个百分点，另一项则接近25个百分点。但在向支持者发布的新视频中，马姆达尼告诫他们切勿自满。

On Thursday, after a high stakes meeting with the leader of China, president Trump said that the two countries have deescalated their trade war, agreeing to what amounts to a year long ceasefire that would roll back tariffs as well as a shutoff of access to rare earth metals. The deal will lower the average tariff rate on many Chinese imports into The US from around 57% to 47%, but the tariffs will remain historically high. And just days before the election for New York City mayor, two new polls released on Thursday showed that Zoran Mamdani, a Democratic socialist, holds a wide lead over his two rivals. One of the polls showed Mamdani with a 16 lead, the other with a nearly 25 lead. But in a new video to his supporters, Mamdani cautioned them against complacency.

人们说我们稳赢了，比赛结束了，科莫完蛋了。别相信这种话。不要认为任何事是理所当然的。

People say we got this. It's over. Cuomo is cooked. Do not believe it. Take nothing for granted.

本期节目由卡琳·奥基夫、迈克尔·西蒙·约翰逊和阿斯塔·查图维迪制作，由瑞秋·奎斯特和莉兹·O·巴伦编辑，音乐由丹·鲍威尔和马里昂·洛萨诺创作，工程由艾丽莎·莫克斯利负责。以上就是今天的《每日新闻》。我是迈克尔·比尔巴拉。

Today's episode was produced by Kalin O'Keefe, Michael Simon Johnson, and Asta Chaturvedi. It was edited by Rachel Questor and Liz O. Balen, contains music by Dan Powell and Marion Lozano, and was engineered by Alyssa Moxley. That's it for The Daily. I'm Michael Bilbara.

周一见。

See you on Monday.