《访谈》：布琳·布朗不再想当自助导师

嗨，我是《纽约时报》游戏团队的乔尔，我在外面和大家聊聊游戏。你最喜欢的游戏是什么？

Hi. I'm Joel from the New York Times games team, and I'm out here talking to people about games. What's your favorite game?

迷你连连看。

The mini Connections.

死亡十字架的感觉。

Dead Cross vibe.

线索追踪。

Strands.

当你玩我们的某个游戏时，你有什么感觉？

What's your vibe when you're playing one of our

游戏？

games?

这让我感觉自己在以一种非常高效的方式拖延时间。

It makes me feel like I'm procrastinating in a really productive way.

它正好满足了我大脑的某种需求。

It just scratches an itch in my brain.

所有这些

All of

游戏都很有趣，因为它们就像是五到十分钟的小休息。我超爱这些游戏。没错。

these games are so fun because it's, like, a little five to ten minute, like, break. I love these games. Yeah.

您可以在nytimes.com/games或我们的游戏应用中玩所有《纽约时报》的游戏。

You can play all New York Times games at nytimes.com/games or in our games app.

这里是《纽约时报》的访谈节目，我是露露·加西亚·纳瓦罗。大多数学者不会成为全球名人。但在2010年，休斯顿大学长期担任社会工作教授的布琳·布朗在一次TEDx演讲中，讲述了她关于羞耻、同理心和勇气的研宄，题为脆弱的力量。在演讲中，她阐述了为什么人们应该适应不适感，这彻底改变了她的生活。

From The New York Times, this is the interview. I'm Lulu Garcia Navarro. Most academics do not become global celebrities. But in 2010, Brene Brown, a longtime professor of social work at the University of Houston, gave a TEDx talk about her research on shame, empathy, and courage called the power of vulnerability. In it, she made the case for why people should get comfortable with being uncomfortable, and it turned her life upside down.

十五年后，那次TED演讲仍然是观看次数最多的演讲之一，布朗已成为全球数百万人的精神导师，他们虔诚地追随她的著作、播客和电视特辑。正如她和我讨论的那样，这并不总是她感到自在的角色。近年来，布朗将注意力转向企业环境。她经营一家咨询公司，与CEO们合作，并写了一本关于领导力的新书《坚实之地》。这本书探讨了优秀领导者的特质，也涉及我们当前所处的技术和文化剧烈动荡时期，以及她职业生涯中宣扬的理念如何帮助我们度过难关。

Fifteen years later, that TED talk is still one of the most viewed ever, and Brown has become a kind of guru for millions of people all over the world who devotedly follow her writings, podcasts, and TV specials. That's not always a role she's comfortable in as she and I discussed. In recent years, Brown has turned her focus to corporate settings. She runs a consulting practice where she works with CEOs, and she's written a new book about leadership called Strong Ground. It's about what makes a good leader, but it's also about this moment of intense technological and cultural upheaval we're in and how the ideas she spent her career preaching about might be able to help us weather it.

以下是我与布琳·布朗的对话。布琳，你以绘制和解释人类情感的工作而闻名。是的，尤其是关于羞耻和脆弱。然而此刻，你还是一位领导力顾问，将这些理念带到从NFL到军队再到财富五百强的各种工作场所。

Here's my conversation with Brene Brown. Brene, you are known might for your work sort of mapping, explaining human emotions. Yeah. And especially around shame, vulnerability. You're also at this moment, though, a leadership consultant who brings those ideas to various work places from the NFL to the military to the Fortune five hundred.

今天我想和你谈谈的一个话题是我们正在目睹的巨大变化。政治上、工作中，在每一个可以想象的方面，我们都处于这个非常不安的非凡时代，对我，我想对几乎所有人都是如此。

And one of the things that I wanted to talk to you about today is the enormous amount of change that we're seeing. Politically, at work, in every way imaginable, we are in just these extraordinary times that are very unsettling for me and I think pretty much everybody.

哦，我现在不相信一个泰然自若的人。

Oh, I don't trust a settled person right now.

告诉我这是什么意思。

Tell me what that means.

听着，我是说，如果你不感到不安，那你就是没有在关注。作为研究者，这是第一个相关性。我们努力寻求稳定，但现在我们身处风暴之中。这是一片疯狂、不可预测、动荡和不稳定的漩涡，让人迷失方向。

Look. If you're I mean, like, if if you're not unsettled, you're not paying attention. That would be the first correlation as a researcher. Like, we work toward feeling grounded, but we're in a tempest right now. Like, this is a maelstrom of craziness and unpredictability and volatility and instability, and it's disorienting.

所以我认为感到不安或迷失并不意味着你有什么问题。从非常专业的角度来看，这可能意味着你具备一定程度的批判性思维能力、预见性思维能力和情感意识。我觉得现在感到不安是个好迹象。问题是，你如何找到锚点？我是说，

And so I don't think that feeling unsettled or feeling disoriented means that there's something wrong with you. I think it means in very technical skills that you probably have some level of critical thinking skills, anticipatory thinking skills, emotional awareness, I think it's a good sign to feel unsettled right now. The question is, how do you get tethered? I mean,

你写了一本新书，叫《坚实之地》，其核心理念就是我们需要在巨变时刻稳住自己。你能告诉我为什么你想与企业领导层探讨这个吗？因为你早期关于女性和羞耻的工作与财富五百强公司的领导力之间并不一定有明显的联系。

you've written a new book. It's called Strong Ground, and that's basically the idea behind it, which is we need to center ourselves at a moment of great change. Can you tell me why that became something that you wanted to engage with corporate leadership? Because it's not necessarily obvious how women and shame in your early work relates to leadership in Fortune five hundred companies.

当你研究情感、行为和思维的交叉点时，几乎可以将其应用于任何领域。所以在关于脆弱性的TED演讲之后，这很奇怪。在关于脆弱性的TED演讲走红之后。

When you study the intersection of emotion, behavior, and thinking, you can apply it pretty much anywhere. And so after the TED talk on vulnerability this is weird. After the TED talk on vulnerability went viral.

这是在2010年吗？

This is in 2010?

对。演讲走红后我接到的第一批电话来自领导者们，他们说，我们认为你讲的内容在我们的工作中有很多应用价值。你能来和我们聊聊吗？于是我开始了一项领导力研究，这正是我需要的。我当时就想，哇。

Right. And the first phone calls I started to get after it went viral were from leaders saying, we think there's a lot of application in what you're talking about in our work. Can you come talk to us? So I started a leadership study, and that was all I needed. I was like, wow.

当你问那些从事重要工作的领导者——企业、非营利组织、军队、体育界——是什么阻碍了他们？每个行业的答案都是勇气。我们不愿进行艰难的对话。我们不追究责任。我们羞辱和指责他们。

When you ask leaders who are doing really important work, corporate, nonprofit, military, sports, what's getting in the way? And the answer across every single industry is courage. We won't have hard conversations. We don't hold people accountable. We shame and blame them.

你知道吗，我当时就想，哦，我能做这个。我知道怎么做。所以对我来说，这条疯狂的道路完全说得通。归根结底，在工作中，我们只是普通人。如果我要找到一个干预点，在我关心的每个领域都能产生最大的影响，那就是这个了。

You know, like, I was like, oh, I can do this. I I know how to do this. So for me, this whole crazy path makes a ton of sense. In the end, at work, we're just people. And if I was going to find an intervention point in which I think I can make the biggest difference in every area that I care about, this is it.

给我解释一下。为什么领导者很重要？为什么与领导者交谈是公司里重要的事情，以及你为什么把工作重点放在这上面？我们一生中

Explain that to me. Why leaders are important? Why talking to leaders is an important thing to do in a company and why you focused your work on that? We spend more

超过一半的时间都在工作。我从未见过在一个糟糕的领导者手下工作还能感到满足的人。

than half of our life at work. I've never met a content person who is working under a shitty leader.

实际上，我总是给人们这样的建议，当他们来找我，问我是否应该接受这份工作或那份工作时，我总是说，谁会是你的上司？谁是领导者？因为这将决定你是否能升职，是否快乐，甚至比职位头衔、薪水、工作内容更重要。你是在为一个你喜欢、尊重并能帮助你的人工作吗？因为如果不是，工作再好也没用。

And I always give this advice to people, actually, when they come to me and I say if they ask me whether they should take this job or that job, and I always say, who's gonna be your boss? Who's the leader? Because that's gonna determine if you get promoted, if you're happy, more than even the job title, the salary, what you're doing. Are you working for someone that you like and respect and will help you? Because if you're not, it doesn't matter how good the job is.

从表面上看，它不会让你快乐，也不会让你达到你想去的地方。你是这个意思吗？

On paper, it's not gonna make you happy, and it's not gonna get you to where you wanna go. Is that kind of what you mean?

听到你这么说，我几乎要哭了。你知道从你尊敬的人那里听到这样的话有多罕见吗？没人这么说。你和我两点派对。这正是我在谈论的。

Like, I could almost cry to hear you say that. Do you know how rare it is to hear from someone you look up to what you just said? No one says it. You and me party at two. Like and that's exactly what I'm talking about.

这正是我所指的意思。让我告诉你，我将领导者定义为任何主动承担发掘人与流程潜力之责，并有勇气培养这种潜力的人。我曾出入财富100强企业的最高管理层，却未见其中有人堪称领导者；也曾置身工厂车间，被真正的领导者环绕。因此对我而言，领导力本质上是关于技能培养。

That is exactly what I'm talking about. And let me tell you, I define a leader as anyone who holds themselves responsible for finding the potential in people and processes and has the courage to develop that potential. I have been in c suites of Fortune 100 companies and not seen a leader among them. And I have been on factory floors and been surrounded by leaders. So to me, leadership is about skills building.

它关乎自我认知——理解你是谁，因为你的本质决定你的领导方式。其次是技能组合。要知道，仅凭经验与专业领域知识，或更可能因为你认识某个关键人物，并不意味着你具备领导才能。

It's about self awareness, understanding who you are, because who you are is how you lead. And then it's skill set. You know, just because you have experience and subject matter expertise, just because more likely you knew the right person doesn't mean you have the skills to lead.

我想触及问题核心——当下这个时刻截然不同。明白吗？就像各行各业许多人一样，我个人正被变革的速度压得喘不过气。

So I wanna get to the heart of the matter, which is that this moment is different. You know? Like a lot of people in every industry, I personally am feeling overwhelmed by the pace of change.

同感。

Same.

我在你新书过半处注意到，你引用了艾米·韦伯的观点，这位研究未来的CEO兼纽约大学教授将此刻描述为'前所未有的超级变革周期'。这对企业内意味着什么？面对如此大规模的颠覆性技术，企业首先需要搞清楚如何运用这些新技术，对吧？

One of the things that I noticed in your new book about halfway through, you quote Amy Webb, a CEO and NYU professor who studies the future basically. And she described this moment as a super cycle of unprecedented change. What does that look like inside companies? Right? Because this massive disruption, all this new technology that companies have available to them I mean, I imagine it's, first of all, how they're supposed to use it Right.

其次是如何对员工进行培训。在这个一切似乎都...

And then how to train people on it. What does that look like inside a workplace at this moment where Okay. It just feels like everything

是啊。

Yeah.

悬而未决的 workplace 里，这究竟呈现为何种景象？

Is up in the air?

简直像场灾难。现状就是资源匮乏——我们做得不够、懂得不够、培训的人手不够。

It looks like a complete shit show. What it looks like is scarcity. We're not doing enough. We don't know enough. We don't have enough people trained.

投入也不足。所有人都在行动，而我们已落后。所以现状是：恐惧与匮乏驱使着大量甚至与企业战略脱节的AI投资。

We're not investing enough. This is what everyone's doing, and we're behind. So it looks like fear and scarcity driving huge investments in AI that are not even aligned with business strategy.

因此，在这个深刻变革的时刻，什么是

So in this moment of sort of profound change, what is a

优秀的领导者？在我看来，当下优秀的领导者是理解紧迫性但能从高效紧迫感出发的人，而非像我祖母常说的那种‘无头苍蝇般的慌乱’——虽然这话不好听，但我们确实看到很多这种情况。真正需要的是富有战略性的高效紧迫感。要知道，重行动轻影响极其危险。眼下我们正目睹大量企业在尝试整合这项技术时，只顾行动不顾影响。

good leader then? So a good leader to me right now is a leader who understands urgency but is working from productive urgency, who is not like my grandma would say, you know, this terrible saying, but chicken with your head cut off urgency. And we're seeing a lot of that, but productive strategic urgency. You know, action over impact is so dangerous. And right now, we're seeing a ton of action over impact as companies try to integrate this technology.

就在这个月，我们开始看到企业在AI投资回报率方面出现一些灾难性数字，因为他们是从运营层面做决策而非战略层面。他们不懂如何带动团队，如何明智运用技术，不清楚哪些场景适用哪些不适用。哈佛商学院的琳达·霍尔教授研究数字化转型，她的见解令人叹服——她总说数字化转型最难的从来不是技术，永远是人。

And right now, this month, we are starting to see some devastating numbers around return on investment in terms of what companies are investing in AI because they're they're coming in operationally and making decisions and not strategically. They're not understanding how to bring people along, how to use it in smart ways, where it will work, where it will not work. Linda Hall, Harvard Business School, professor, researcher, studies digital transformation. Love this work for she's just brilliant. She will tell you the hardest thing about digital transformation, never the technology, always the people.

再加上你提到的超级周期，全球地缘政治极度不稳定。领导者们每天醒来，可能因为前一晚政府关税政策的疯狂变动，世界就天翻地覆。地缘政治之外，首先是我们讨论的技术超级周期，其次是消费市场剧变——因为消费者在变，我们也在变。

Then you add to that, you're talking about this super cycle, absolute geopolitical instability around the world. You know, leaders wake up and depending on the tariff fever dream of the night before by this administration, everything has changed. So geopolitics, then you have what we talked about first, technology supercycles. Next, you have radically shifting marketplaces because consumers are changing. We're changing.

最近我接触的经济学家们又开始提起‘蛋黄酱罐理论’——该把钱投入市场还是持有现金？经济层面完全不稳定，市场不稳定，技术迭代带来动荡，地缘政治动荡，更不用说代际差异带来的职场复杂性。

You know, we don't you know, I'm talking to people who are economists that are mentioning mayonnaise jars again for the first time. Do you put your money in the market? Do you not put your money in the market? So so there's complete instability economically. There's markets instability, technology, geopolitical instability, and I'm not going to downplay the complexity of intergenerational workplaces.

这些力量大部分其实超出企业领导者的掌控范围。

I mean, some of these forces are largely out of the control of leaders of companies.

没错，我认为绝大多数都不可控。但你能控制什么？你见过五六岁孩子踢足球吗？

Yeah. I mean, I I would say the majority of them are out of the control. But what is in your control? Have you ever watched, like, five or six year olds play soccer?

很不幸，见过。

Sadly, yes.

听你回答就知道你肯定见过。球飞出场地时，我女儿还盘腿坐着编雏菊花环呢。观察小孩踢球最有趣的是——当球飞到胸前高度时，

I know for sure that you have by your answer. Yeah. Like like, you know, the ball leaves the field and, like, my daughter's sitting crisscross applesauce making daisy chains. You know? Like, one of the things that's really interesting is when you watch little kids play soccer, a kick will come into a kid at, like, chest level.

他们不会停球观察场况再传球，而是直接把脚举过头顶试图回踢。优秀领导者会接住外界动荡，像停球般稳住阵脚，在分秒必争中创造思考空间，审时度势后做出明智决策。

And they won't settle the ball, look down the pitch, and decide where it needs to go next. They'll just raise their foot up over their head and try to kick that ball back about that high. A good leader takes the incoming churn and instability, settles the ball, takes a breath, creates some space and time where none exists, looks down the pitch, and makes a smart decision about where to kick the ball next.

那么这与你之前关于同情心、共情力和脆弱性的理念如何关联？我的意思是，在那些时刻这些品质是否仍然必要？因为我理解它们能让我们成为更好的人，但为何能让我们成为更好的领导者？

So how does that connect with your older ideas around compassion, empathy, vulnerability? I mean, are those things still necessary in those moments? Because I get why it makes us better humans, but why does it make us better leaders?

因为当你把脚抬到肩膀高度踢球时，你根本无法控制球的方向。这不是战略性的，而是应激反应。所以回答你的问题：我的团队正在为一个项目拼命工作，而我刚从我老板那里得知这个项目被降级了。

Because when you raise your foot up shoulder height and kick a ball, you have no control where it goes. It's not strategic. It's reactionary. It's not a response. So the answer to your question is I have my team working really hard toward a project, and I just found out from my boss it's been deprioritized.

我把他们召集起来。那一刻的同情心是什么模样？那一刻的脆弱性与人性又如何体现？我会说：首先我要感谢你们付出的努力，这是重要的任务，是我们被要求做好且寄予厚望的工作。我依赖你们，而你们做到了。

I pull them together. And what does compassion in that moment look like? And what does vulnerability and humanity look like in that moment? And I say, I wanna start by saying how grateful I am for the work you've been doing and that it was important work and work we were asked to do and asked to do well. And I counted on you for that, and you delivered.

今早我得知由于供应链问题或战略优先级调整，这项计划已经转向，我们需要改变方向。我不想直接把所有压力抛给你们。我想花点时间承认——放弃优秀成果并开启新工作所需消耗的认知与情感能量。我想和你们就此沟通。

I found out this morning that this initiative due to whatever, a supply chain issue, a change in strategic priority, has shifted, and we're being asked to change direction. And I don't wanna just throw everything at you. I wanna take a minute, and I wanna acknowledge the amount of cognitive and emotional energy it takes to walk away from good work and start new work. And I wanna check-in with you about it.

我听着你的话不断点头，觉得很有道理。但我也注意到这类领导方式似乎已不再流行。当今最具价值的科技公司，早就不以以人为本的领导风格著称了。

I'm listening to you, and I'm nodding, and I'm going, yeah. That sounds really good. Mhmm. But I also see that that kind of leadership seems to have fallen out of the zeitgeist. The companies that are some of the most valuable in this era are tech companies who aren't exactly known for their people centered leadership anymore.

这种从展现共情转向试图理解人们体验另一面的转变，在埃隆·马斯克式领导风格盛行的时代已不再受欢迎——你可以直接进去裁员，公司照样高效运转。甚至有人认为会更高效。

And that sort of shift away from appearing empathetic to trying to understand, you know, the other side of of people's experience, that doesn't seem to be as popular anymore in the era of the Elon Musk style of leadership where you can go in, you can fire a bunch of people, and you can still have a productive company. Mhmm. Some would argue even more productive.

第一，流行趋势对我个人毫无吸引力。民主现在也不流行，但我依然坚信它。第二，我们收集所有数据，发现勇敢无畏的领导力与公司衡量的绩效指标（无论是季度股价、员工留存率还是参与度）存在极强相关性。

One, what's in the zeitgeist and not in the zeitgeist is a very little interest to me personally. Democracy is not in the zeitgeist right now either. I'm still a firm believer in it. Number two, we collect data on everything we do. We see a very compelling, persuasive, strong correlation between courageous and daring leadership and performance as measured by the way companies measure performance, whether that's quarterly stock price, whether that's retention, whether that's engagement.

我毫不怀疑：尽管世人普遍认为必须做个混蛋才能激发团队效能，但长期来看几乎没有证据支持这点。恐惧驱动作为催化剂能快速提升绩效指标，但无法持续——原因很简单。

I have zero doubt that just because the world at large believes that you have to be a total dick to get performance out of a team, there is actually very little evidence of that over a long period of time. Zero. One of the things I think is interesting is leading by fear as a catalyst can really result in very quick performance metrics. They're not sustainable for a really easy reason. I think a simple reason.

恐惧的时效性很短。若要将恐惧作为领导工具，或维持'支配型权力'（而非社会工作者玛丽·帕克·福莱特提出的'共享型权力'），你必须定期展示残酷能力——因为恐惧在人们心中存续时间有限。你无法让我永远恐惧，但间歇性展示残忍会重新点燃恐惧。

Fear has a very short shelf life. And in order to maintain fear as a leadership tool or power over rather than power with and power to, Mary Parker Follett's work, social worker, early management scholar, you know, she talks about power, power over, power with, power to, power within. In order to lead from power over using fear, humiliation, you have to demonstrate a capacity for cruelty at very regular intervals because of the short shelf life that fear has in people. So you can't keep me afraid forever. But if periodically you can demonstrate cruelty and a capacity for it, that will rekindle my fear.

我认为人们越来越无法容忍这种生存方式。新一代人绝不会接受这样的工作环境。

I think people are becoming less and less tolerant of living that way. And I think we have a new generation of people who won't work that way.

嗯，这很有趣，因为我认为文化和社会思潮确实存在一种响应性。具体来说，文化变迁的一个例证就是，我们看到各行各业的企业纷纷取消了原本旨在促进包容性与归属感的多元化、公平与包容（DEI）项目。这些项目是他们在2020年另一个文化时刻的应景之举。如今时过境迁，他们显然认为这些项目不再有益。我不禁怀疑，许多这类人文管理培训的推行是否只是作秀。

Well, that's interesting because, you know, there is a responsiveness, I think, to culture and the zeitgeist. And a specific example, I think, of the way culture has changed is we've seen companies across the spectrum, for example, get rid of their DEI programs that were meant to be about inclusivity, belonging. They adopted them in response to another cultural moment, right, in 2020. And now because things have changed, they've apparently decided that it doesn't help them anymore. And I guess I wonder if the embrace of a lot of these management and leadership humanity trainings are only performative.

它们的存在只是为了应对外部不可控力量，而非真正践行你所说的必要工作。

That they are there simply to respond to forces outside of their control, but they're not really about doing the work that you say is necessary.

没错。绝对如此。有些是作秀，有些则不是——如果我们具体讨论DEI项目的话。

Heck yes. Yes. Absolutely. Some are and some are not. If we wanna talk about DEI programs specifically.

但这确实是个典型案例，而且是人们已经注意到的现象。

It's an example, though. I think one that people have noted.

这是个典型案例，而且是个重要案例。确实有公司曾利用DEI作为品牌包装，一旦被要求取消就毫不犹豫地抛弃。但我也见证过真正发挥作用的DEI项目——本质上，运作良好的DEI项目其实就是精英选拔机制。

It's an example, but it's a it's an important example. Did some companies adopt DEI and exploit it, use it as a part of their brand, and then the minute they were told to get rid of it, they got rid of it And without thinking twice about it. I I think that's for sure. Did I see DEI programs function in meaningful way? You know, DEI programs are not they were developed, and when done well, they were just meritocracy programs.

优秀的DEI项目本该如此

That's what a a good DEI program is

仅仅

just

是精英选拔机制。这种机制旨在遏制偏袒与偏见这种隐形程序。这不是行政手段的问题。关于时代精神，我们必须认清两点：当行政力量介入时——

a meritocracy program. It's just a program to make sure that the invisible program of favoritism and bias was being checked. This is not administration. That's a fan of meritocracy. So the two things I think we have to recognize about the zeitgeist is when you have an administration.

假设你是CEO，行政部门威胁说若不取消DEI项目就终止所有政府相关合同，这意味着你将不得不裁掉3.5万名员工。这种情况下，企业取消DEI项目并非自愿选择。我认为，任何领导者——无论是在非营利组织、企业、政府还是军队——如果轻易放弃真正有益于员工凝聚力、认同感并提升绩效的项目（这本就是领导者的职责），那绝对是个糟糕的领导者。

If you let's say you're the CEO, and you have an administration saying, you'll get rid of this, or you'll lose every contract that touches the government, any federal or state dollars, and you know that that means that you'll need to lay off 35,000 people. I don't know that people are choosing to get rid of their DEI programs. I would be comfortable enough to say that any leader that props up or folds something that's good for their people and helps make their people feel more connected and seen and also drives performance, which is a leader's job, whether they're in an NGO or nonprofit or a for profit or government, military, sport, doesn't matter, is a pretty terrible leader.

广告回来后，我将请蕾妮谈谈线上自助生态圈。

After the break, I asked Renee about the online self help ecosystem.

该死。我差点就能避开这一切，不用来这里的。

Shit. I almost escaped this whole thing without having to go here.

嘿，等等。这是属于你的时刻。这是你生命中今天的这一分钟，是你展现自我的日子。

Hey. Hold up. This is your minute. It's your minute in this life on this day. It's your day to play.

去玩耍，去创造，去行动，去穿越，去探索。这是你分享的清晨，你塑造的周末，去烹饪，去沉浸，去聆听，去等待。这是你休憩、滋养、成长的身体。这是你的思想。明白吗？

To play, to make, to move, to move through, to explore. It's your morning to share, your weekend to shape, to cook, to soak, to listen to, to wait. It's your body to rest, to nourish, to grow. It's your mind. You know?

这是你的地方，你的国家，你热爱、崛起、梦想、改变的生活。这个世界和其他人一样属于你。这是需要你去理解的世界。《纽约时报》。了解更多请访问nytimes.com/yourworld。

It's your place, your country, your life to love, to rise, to dream, to change. It's your world as much as anyone's. It's your world to understand. The New York Times. Find out more at nytimes.com/yourworld.

我在听你说话，现在是个非常艰难的时刻。但你反复提到一个我认为非常有趣的话题，就是我们在职场中看到的代际差异，以及不同世代如何看待工作，工作应该做什么，不应该做什么。你能详细说说你观察到的现象和对此的看法吗？

So I'm listening to you talk, and it is this very difficult moment. You keep on bringing something up though that I do think is really interesting, which are the generational differences that we're seeing in the workplace, and how different generations view work, and what work is supposed to do and what work isn't supposed to do. Can you just expand on that a little, what you've seen and what your thinking around that is?

我确实认为代际共事中存在复杂的组织难题。我们不一样。我们成长环境不同，对成功的定义也不同。我认为每个世代都有值得学习的地方，每个世代在职场上都有真正的优势，也可能有些不足。

I I do think there is complexity, organizational complexity in intergenerational work. I think we're different. I think that, you know, we're we were raised differently. We have different ideas about, you know, what success is, and I think there's something to learn from each generation. I think each generation has real strengths in a workplace and possibly some deficits.

我谈论像世代这样庞大群体时确实会紧张，但我也认为其中有些道理，所以我会尽量平衡。作为养育了两个Z世代的X世代，我觉得我们做对了一些事，也有些事没做好。当人们开始猛烈批评Z世代时，我反而觉得好笑，因为通常正是养育他们的人。

I I do get nervous talking about swathes of people like generations, but I also think it's there's some truth to it, so I'll try to balance that. I I'm a Gen X person who's raised two Gen Z folks. I think we did some good things. I think we did some not great things raising that gender. I mean, like, it's like when people, like, start, you know, really dogging on Gen Z, it makes me laugh because it's usually the exact people who raised them.

所以我总是觉得...这是个好观点，算是自我控诉吧。我们本想确保孩子不用经历我们所有的痛苦体验，但不知不觉中，我们把创伤和逆境混为一谈了。

So I think I always like. It's a good point. You know, self indictment. But I think that we wanted to make sure that our kids didn't have all of our experiences, the the the traumatic hard ones. And somewhere along the way, we confuse trauma with adversity.

逆境对孩子其实有益，而创伤对我们无益。这方面确实存在些问题。我注意到这代人的特点是他们做任何事都要先问为什么。我们这代人成长时听到的是'照我说的做'，所以当遇到总问'为什么这么做'的世代时，就会非常沮丧。

And adversity is really good for kids, and trauma is not good for us. And so I do think there's a little bit of that. So let's be clear about that. I think what I've noticed about this generation is that they're not doing anything without the why. This is like the generation my generation that was grown up we grew up with, like, because I said so, getting really frustrated with a generation that said, I don't why are we doing it that way?

这是什么？这有什么帮助？像我这样年纪的人更想听到的是'明白，立刻执行'这样的回应。

What is that? Why is that gonna be helpful? And, you know, people my age are looking for a little yes, chef action. Like, got it. On it.

不。这些孩子们根本不感兴趣。他们想知道为什么。我喜欢这样，因为当你咬牙切齿地告诉他们原因时，他们会说，让我复述一下你的话，露露。你要我今天下午3点前给你这份数据，是因为你要在会议上和这些人使用。

No. These these kids are not interested. They wanna know the why. I like it because when you give them the why through your gritted teeth, they're like, let me so let me play back what you're saying, Lulu. You want me to get this data for you by 03:00 this afternoon because you're gonna use it in a meeting with these people.

是这样吗？然后你说，是的。该死的。而他们会说，我觉得你要错数据了。老兄，你需要的是完全不同的数据集，如果你想在5点做那件事的话。

Is that right? And you're like, yes. Damn it. And they're like, I think you're asking for the wrong data. Dude, you need bruh, you need a whole different set of data if that's what you're trying to do at 05:00.

然后这就很有帮助。懂吗？所以，拥有正确的技能时，真正有益的冲突会带来创新、创意和智慧的火花；但如果没有这些技能，任务冲突就会变成情感冲突。然后人们就开始互相讨厌。

And then that's helpful. You know? And so, with the right skills, what would be really good task conflict that leads to innovation and ideation and smart things, with the right skills, it's amazing. The problem is without the right skills, task conflict becomes emotional conflict. And then people don't like each other.

他们互相指责。他们在正式会议之外私下开会，你知道，所有这些都会撕裂团队和组织。问题在于缺乏驾驭紧张局势并保持高效的能力，而不是代际差异。

They blame each other. They're having meetings outside the meetings, you know, all the stuff that just tears teens and organizations apart. It's the lack of skill to straddle tension and stay in it and be productive with it that's the problem, not the generations.

嗯，我想这引出了你工作中关于沟通的核心主题。对吧？我们如何对话，在这些讨论中真正在做什么。作为同样从事沟通工作的人，我经常思考这个问题，因为归根结底，沟通是为了建立信任，让人们参与进来。为什么我们在这方面这么糟糕？

Well, I mean, this brings me to, I think, one of the central themes in your work about work, which is communication. Right? How we talk to each other, what are we doing when we're having these discussions. And as a fellow communicator, I think about this a lot because, ultimately, communication is about building trust, bringing people along. Why do you think we suck at it?

来自《纽约时报》记者的提问。知道为什么我们做不好吗？良好的沟通是一项基于清晰、纪律和责任的技能。我正在思考

From from the New York Times journalist. You know why we suck at it? Good communication is a skill that's based in clarity, discipline, and accountability. I'm thinking about

这三个词：清晰、纪律、责任。没错。请详细解释一下。

those three words. Clarity, discipline, and accountability. Yes. Walk me through them.

好的。首先，良好的沟通需要脆弱性。这很难。如果你想诚实有效地沟通，就必须对不适感有承受力。这在组织或家庭的各个层面都适用。

Okay. So first of all, good communication is vulnerable. It's hard. You have to have a tolerance for discomfort if you want to communicate well and honestly. And that's at every level in an organization, in a family.

无所谓。勇敢的人生基本上就是每天进行15次该死的艰难对话。所以它既脆弱又可怕，这是其中一部分。然后我们谈到清晰——要清楚自己想说什么，用词精炼，使用准确的词汇来描述我们的目标、意图和需求。纪律。

It doesn't matter. A brave life is basically 15 freaking hard conversations a day. So it's vulnerable and scary, and so that's part of it. Then we talk about clarity clarity of what we wanna say, economy of words, using the right words to describe what we wanna do and what we want, what we mean, what we need. Discipline.

比如把邮件检查三遍。选择打电话而不是发短信，因为文字会丢失语气信息。还有责任。当你说，哇布琳，这话说得真差劲。而我会回答，是的。

Checking an email three times. Picking up a phone instead of sending a text because tone is lost on text, and it doesn't work. Accountability. You say, wow, Brene, that was a really shitty thing to say. And I said, yeah.

那本是我的本意。我很生气。哦天啊，那不是我的本意。我道歉。我能理解这话听起来会让人误会。

That was my intention. I'm pissed. Or, god, that was not my intention. I apologize. I could see how it landed that way.

这就是担当。明白吗？从行为层面来说，没人教过我们该怎么做到这点。我们没教过人们如何好好沟通。我是说，我们奉行的准则是：含糊即残忍，清晰即仁慈。

That's accountability. You know? And then I think behaviorally, you know, the behavior, no one's taught how to do that. We don't teach people how to communicate well. I mean, we operate from an axiom clear as kind, unclear, unkind.

所以我认为沟通的重要性从未像现在这样突出。

So I think communication has never been more important than it is right now.

我们时间所剩无几，我想请教你关于所在行业变化的看法。回顾你的职业生涯，你2010年崭露头角，恰逢人们寻求生活指导和人际交往建议的需求爆发式增长。虽然不知你如何看待'自助'这个标签，但你确实是网络个人成长内容最早的实践者之一——这类内容至今仍极受欢迎，尽管多数从业者并不具备你的专业资质。对这十五年的行业演变，你有何见解？

We have only a little bit of time left, and I wanted to ask you a little bit about the changes that you've seen in the industry within which you work. Because as I was thinking about your career, you know, you came up in 2010, and you have sort of ridden this enormous boom in people looking for guidance and help in the way that they should live their lives and interact with other people. And I don't know how you feel about the label of self help being applied to your work, but you were definitely sort of one of the earliest practitioners of a very online strain of personal improvement content that's still very, very popular. Though most people practicing it don't have your credentials, how do you look at the evolution of that world in the last fifteen years?

该死。我差点就能全程避开这个话题了。差点。露露，你真是沟通高手，该给你打A+。

Shit. I almost escaped this whole thing without having to go here. Almost. You really are. You get the a plus in communication, Lulu.

好吧。我认为这个领域有30%是善意、专业且训练有素的人。另有30%是想进入个人成长健康领域但资质不足的，他们心思细腻，有时能帮上忙，通常无害。剩下40%纯粹是江湖骗子。

Okay. I think that there are a lot of well meaning, well intentioned, well trained people in that space. And I think they make up about 30% of that space. I think there are 30 of the people who want to be in that space or trying to be in that kind of self improvement wellness space who are underqualified, thoughtful, sometimes helpful, often benign. And I think there are 40% sheer grifters.

他们说的每句话都是掠夺性建议。根据询问对象不同，人们可能把我归入不同类别——取决于他们如何评价我的言论。在这个领域时，我一直格外谨慎。曾有某个时刻，我做了个非常具体的战术性决定：赶紧抽身远离这个领域。那是何时？

And everything they say is it's predatory advice giving. I think depending on who you'd ask who you ask, people could put me in different categories there depending on what they think about what I'm saying. I've always been tried to then be very, very careful when I was in that space. There was a moment when I made a very, very specific tactical get the hell out of Dodge decision to not be anywhere near that space. When was that?

就是我和姐妹们照顾患痴呆症的母亲时。当时我总看到这类帖子：'照顾痴呆父母开始怀疑自己记忆力？一汤匙蓖麻油改变人生''为父母认知衰退崩溃？四个健脑游戏保你永不中招'。我第一反应是：去你的。

And that was when my sisters and I were caregiving for my mom with dementia. And when I found myself bombarded by posts that would say things like caregiving for a parent with dementia, starting to wonder about your own memory, a tablespoon of castor oil will change your life. Find yourself devastated by your own parents' cognitive decline, our four brain teasers will ensure this never happens to you. And my first reaction to that was fuck you. No.

不。不。那是我第二反应。第一反应是：我要买。快卖给我。

No. No. That was my second reaction. My first reaction is, I'll take it. I'll buy it.

你在卖什么？让我试试。这才是最初反应。后来我发现Instagram上流传的我的视频片段被剪得极具煽动性——前半段我明明说'这个领域我不确定'或'无法建立因果关系'，但剪辑后只剩斩钉截铁的指导意见。

What are you selling? Let me do it. That was my first reaction. And I realized that I would see clips of myself come up on Instagram where the clip had been cut such that it was kind of provocative and advice giving and conveyed a certainty that the first half of my answer was like, look. I'm not sure, or I don't study that area, or, you know, we can't draw causal lines here, but then the clip would be this.

我当时就觉得，我不能参与这种事。真的，我无法参与，也绝对不想用那些陌生人可能视为建议的东西去压垮他们。我只是觉得...这不是我的作风。

And I was like, I can't be a part of this. Like, I cannot be a part of this, and I absolutely do not want to participate in overwhelming people who I don't know with what they believe is advice that they should take. I just don't think it's I don't think it's that's not who I am.

那么从实际操作层面，给我解释下这种转变意味着什么？你现在的做法和之前刚接触时有什么不同？

So explain to me, practically speaking, what that shift then means. I mean, what do you do differently that you might have not done before as you were coming into this?

我现在对不同的讨论主题感兴趣。我想探讨领导力，想研究组织运作机制，关注更宏观的议题。我觉得自己还在摸索阶段。

I'm interested in different discussions. I'm interested in talking about leadership. I'm interested in talking about how organizations function. I'm interested in talking about more macro topics. I think I'm just figuring it out.

有次我和亚当·格兰特同行——他是我的好友。我们聊到彼此的职业轨迹，你觉得很相似对吧？我们在企业里做的工作类型差不多。

I I I was walking I was with Adam Grant somewhere, and he's a good friend. And we were talking about our careers, and they're very much the same, would you think, a little bit, or would you say? Like, we do the same kind of work in companies.

是啊。

Yeah.

他说不理解为什么我走在街上或进入某些场合时要小心翼翼。我回答说我们的经历不同。我们穿过会议区四个街区，期间有六个人过来找我，其中三个还在哭。

And he said, I don't understand, like, why you're careful about walking down the street or going into the saying. And I said, I think my experience is different than yours. And we walked, like, four blocks through this, like, conference area. And in that time, six people came up to me. Three of them were crying.

知道吗？他说这完全不是他的生活体验。他还说，当我因言论遭受攻击时，那些攻击的性质也截然不同。我问什么意思，他直说：这里存在严重的性别问题。

You know? And he's like, this is not my experience in my life. And and he said, and when you get attacked for something you say, it's not it doesn't look and feel like the attacks. And I said, what are you saying? And he's like, we got a big fat gender issue here.

我问他是这样吗？他肯定地说是。他认为这现象至今仍很明显。他去英国时，媒体称他是'思想领袖'，研究者亚当·格兰特到金丝雀码头演讲。而我去英国时，头条写的是'自助女王驾临伦敦'。

And I said, you think so? And he goes, yeah. He's like, this is so I think that's still really at play. He goes to The UK, and it's like thought leader, you know, researcher Adam Grant arrives to talk to people at Canary Wharf. I think the headline when I got to The UK said the queen of self help arrives in London.

只是...我眼中的自己与世界眼中的并不相同。记得疫情期间《德州月刊》——我在书里写过这事——《德州月刊》...

It's just it's just I don't see myself the way the world sees me. You know, I think it was during the pandemic, Texas Monthly. I write about this in the book. Texas Monthly. You know?

《纽约时报》也一样。他们可以采访你，但标题和内容完全不受你控制，你永远提心吊胆：这次又会出什么状况？那次我还是封面故事的主角。

I mean, The New York Times is the same way. They can interview. You have no control over what the headline is or anything else like that, and you're always like, oh, shit. What's gonna happen? And, of course, the the cover, it was a cover story on me.

其中有几点对我来说确实很难接受。我热爱《德州月刊》，但那篇文章说布琳·布朗如何成为了美国的心理治疗师。我当时就想，什么？我从不认为自己是——我一直很清楚。

And there was a couple things about it that were, like, just for me really hard. And I love Texas Monthly. But it said how Brene Brown became America's therapist. And I'm like, what? Like, I don't think I've ever been I I've been always clear.

我不是心理健康从业者。我尊重并钦佩那份职业。我自己也有心理治疗师。我不是治疗师，也不想成为你或任何人的治疗师。所以我明确划定了自己能做出贡献和不能涉足的界限。

I'm not a mental health practitioner. I respect that work, admire that work. I have a therapist. I'm not a therapist, and I don't wanna be your therapist or anybody's therapist. And so I think I've just drawn a very hard line around where I think I can make a contribution and where I can't.

嗯，就是这样。

And, yeah, that's it.

以上是布琳·布朗的分享。她的新书《坚实根基》将于9月23日上市。观看本期及更多访谈，请订阅我们的YouTube频道youtube.com/@theinterviewpodcast。本次对话由怀亚特·奥姆制作，艾莉森·本尼迪克特剪辑，索尼娅·埃雷罗混音。

That's Brene Brown. Strong ground will be out September 23. To watch this interview and many others, you can subscribe to our YouTube channel at youtube.com/@ symbol the interview podcast. This conversation was produced by Wyatt Orm. It was edited by Alison Benedict, mixing by Sonia Herrero.

原创音乐由罗温·内马斯托、丹·鲍威尔和玛丽安·洛萨诺创作。高级预约制作人是普里娅·马修，塞斯·凯利担任高级制作人。安娜贝尔·培根为高级编辑。访谈视频由保罗·努多夫和费莉丝·莱昂制作，泽布迪亚·史密斯负责摄影。

Original music by Rowan Nemasto, Dan Powell, and Marian Lozano. Our senior booker is Priya Matthew, and Seth Kelly is our senior producer. Annabelle Bacon is our senior editor. Video of this interview was produced by Paulo Nudorf and Felice Leon. Cinematography by Zebediah Smith.

视频剪辑由艾米·马里诺完成。布鲁克·明特斯担任播客视频执行制片人。特别感谢阿菲姆·夏皮罗、罗里·沃尔什、罗南·巴雷利、杰弗里·米兰达、尼克·皮特曼、麦迪·马谢洛、杰克·西尔弗斯坦、保拉·舒曼和萨姆·多尔尼克。下周，大卫将与卡梅伦·克罗对话，谈论他即将出版的回忆录，内容关于他少年时期作为音乐记者的早年经历。我是露露·加西亚-纳瓦罗，这里是《纽约时报》的访谈节目。

It was edited by Amy Marino. Brooke Minters is the executive producer of podcast video. Special thanks to Afim Shapiro, Rory Walsh, Ronan Barelli, Jeffrey Miranda, Nick Pittman, Maddie Masiello, Jake Silverstein, Paula Schuman, and Sam Dolnick. Next week, David talks with Cameron Crowe ahead of his new memoir, which is about his early days as a teenage music journalist. I'm Lulu Garcia Navarro, and this is the interview from The New York Times.