数百万贫困美国人在政府停摆中任人摆布

你好，我是索拉娜·派恩，现任《纽约时报》视频总监。多年来，我的团队制作了众多让你更贴近重大新闻时刻的视频，这些由时报记者制作的视频具备专业视角，能帮助你理解事件动态。现在我们将通过《纽约时报》应用中的'观看'栏目为你呈现这些视频。

Hi. I'm Solana Pine. I'm the director of video at The New York Times. For years, my team has made videos that bring you closer to big news moments, videos by Times journalists that have the expertise to help you understand what's going on. Now we're bringing those videos to you in the watch tab in The New York Times app.

这是一个专属视频流，你可以完全信任所看到的内容。所有视频都免费开放观看，无需订阅。立即下载《纽约时报》应用开始观看吧。

It's a dedicated video feed where you know you can trust what you're seeing. All the videos there are free for anyone to watch. You don't have to be a subscriber. Download The New York Times app to start watching.

这里是《纽约时报》的瑞秋·艾布拉姆斯，您正在收听的是《每日播报》。

From the New York Times, I'm Rachel Abrams, and this is The Daily.

福利本该1号到账对吧？对。那今天怎么回事？就是没到账。

You get benefits on the first. Yeah? Yeah. And what happened today? They just didn't load.

系统显示会到账，只是会延迟。

Says that they will arrive, but they will be late.

特朗普政府已同意恢复部分名为SNAP的食品计划资金。但具体到账金额和时间仍存在不确定性。

The Trump administration has agreed to restore some of the funding for the food program known as SNAP. But there's still uncertainty about how much money will come through and when.

按往常今天应该到账多少？大概7.8美元左右。账户现在有余额吗？我只有12美分。

What would that normally look like today? It would be like $7.80. Is there an account balance? I have 12¢.

数千万美国人，每八人中就有一人依赖SNAP食品券计划。没有联邦援助，许多人不知道如何养活自己或家人。

Tens of millions of Americans, one in eight, rely on SNAP. Without federal assistance, many people do not know how they will provide for themselves or their families.

我收养了我的孙子。他两岁了。想到我可能无法喂饱他，这太可怕了。

I adopted my grandson. He's two. And it's terrifying thinking I can't feed him.

现在资金被冻结了，我家里真的什么吃的都没有了。

Now that that's been frozen, I literally have nothing in the house.

国会无法就法案做出决定不是每个人的错。他们不该惩罚低收入家庭和贫困人群，因为我们就靠这个生存。

It's it's not everybody's fault that congress can't make a decision on a bill. So they shouldn't punish the low income family, the needy people, because that's what we rely on.

今天，我们听到来自一个最依赖食品援助的社区的声音，以及我的同事托尼·罗姆关于SNAP计划持续争议的报道——政府停摆已进入第二个月。今天是11月4日，星期二。

Today, we hear from people in one of the communities most reliant on food aid and from my colleague Tony Rom about the ongoing fight over SNAP as the government enters its second month of a shutdown. It's Tuesday, November 4.

我们要开始了吗？

Are we getting going?

对。看起来我们现在要开始了。起来吧。冲过去。那辆红色卡车是第一个目标。

Yeah. Looks like we're gonna start rolling now. Get up. Run it down. The red truck is one.

一。

One.

上周五，日常制片人奥利维亚·纳特和安娜·弗利前往西弗吉尼亚州的克米特，这是一个约有300人的乡村小镇。

Last Friday, daily producers Olivia Natt and Anna Foley went to Kermit, West Virginia, a rural town of about 300 people.

卷心菜怎么样？苹果和肉也一样。每家一份，每车最多两家。

How about cabbage? App apples and meat, same thing. One per family up to two families per car.

在一座浸信会教堂外设立了流动食品分发站。志愿者们将鸡蛋、土豆、李子和黄瓜等物品装入人们的车里。

There was a mobile food pantry set up outside a Baptist church. Volunteers loaded items including eggs, potatoes, plums, and cucumbers into people's cars.

亲爱的，我们这儿有面包给你。亲爱的，那太好了。你谢谢。

We got bread here for you, honey. Honey, that's good. You're thank you.

西弗吉尼亚州是美国SNAP福利的主要受益地区之一。约16%的西弗吉尼亚人通过SNAP获得食品援助。即使有额外帮助，许多人仍依赖食品分发站，尤其是在月底，尤其是这个月福利是否发放尚不明确的时候。

West Virginia is one of the top recipients of SNAP benefits in the country. About 16% of West Virginians get food assistance through SNAP. And even with the extra help, a lot of people rely on food pantries, especially at the end of the month and especially this month when there hasn't been much clarity about whether benefits were coming or not.

你好。我是奥利维亚，来自《纽约时报》，我

Hi there. My name's Olivia. I'm with the New York Times, and I was

沿着车列走着，奥利维亚和安娜与人们交谈，询问他们接下来的计划。

Walking down the line of cars, Olivia and Anna spoke to people about what they were planning to do next.

你们是在搞什么新闻采访之类的吗？

Are you talking some kind of news or something?

是的。

I am.

嗯，好的。

Yeah. Okay.

你们想聊聊吗？

Do y'all wanna talk?

我觉得你是...嗯。

I think you're Yeah.

我叫安娜。你能先告诉我你的名字，还有你来自哪里，在这里住了多久，以及一些关于你自己的情况吗？

I My name's Anna. So could you start by telling me your name and, you know, where you're from, how long you've lived here, a little bit about yourself?

我叫罗伊·梅瑟，来自西弗吉尼亚州的克米特。

My name is Roy Messer, and I'm from Kermit, West Virginia.

我叫特蕾莎·霍奇，就住在这栋楼的斯通科，沿着走廊走到底就是。

My name is Teresa Hodge. I live here on Stone Co, right down the hall.

我叫布丽安娜·洛克哈特，之前一直在家当全职妈妈，但最近因为疫情停工又重返职场了。

My name is Brianna Lockhart. I was a stay at home mama for a while, but just recently went back to work because of the shutdown that's going on.

你们今天来这儿是有什么原因吗？

And what brings you guys out here today?

唉，现在日子不好过。食品券被取消了，为了养家糊口只能这样了。

Well, right now, times are rough. I mean, they took the food stamps. You gotta do what you gotta do. Feed your family.

我是来给自己领物资的，顺便带我表妹一起来，这样她也能

I'm picking up for me, and I brought my cousin with me so she can

帮我拿点肉。

Get me. Get some meat.

是啊，他们是这么说的。本来应该是肉类和一些食物。

Yeah. That's what they said. It was supposed to be meat and some food.

我看过清单了，他们有火鸡和鸡蛋。

I've seen the list, and they have turkey and eggs.

那也行。至少感恩节我还能有点东西吃。

That'll work. At least I'll be able to have something for Thanksgiving.

一箱食物能有什么用？对你们家庭能产生什么影响呢？

What can a box of food do? Like, what is the impact for your family?

嗯，这些食物能让我们家多吃一周。你知道，我们得艰难抉择是买食物还是付账单，尽管我妻子全职工作，我们还得靠SNAP补助才能多买些肉类之类的。

Well, that's gonna be able to effectively feed my family for an extra week. You know, we're gonna be in a struggle to make sure that it's either gonna be food or bills because even though my wife works full time, we still depend on SNAP benefits to help get us through buying the extra meat and stuff like that.

既然没有食品券了，这家食品银行将是我家里唯一的食物来源。

Since there'll be no stamps, this food bank will be the only food I have to go in my house.

如果你不介意的话，请问你领到多少钱？SNAP补助，136美元。

How much money do you receive, if you don't mind me asking? Snap, 136.

我觉得大概是2.92。

I think it's like 2.92.

我总共拿到63美元。

I get a whole $63

63美元能让你撑多久？

How far does $63 go for you?

两袋东西。可能还能买一盒饼干。也许吧。

Two bags. And you might get a box of crackers. Maybe.

你知道的，就算有食品券，通常离下次发放还有两周时，日子就紧巴巴的了。你得跑去食品银行寻求帮助。明白吗？就是这么简单直接。

You know, even with your food stamps, usually about two weeks before the month comes back up, you're skimming tight. You run into food banks trying to get help. You know? It's just plain and simple.

你能描述一下用食品券时晚餐通常吃什么吗？然后想象一下如果没有食品券，那种情况下晚餐又会是什么样子？

Can you describe, like, what a dinner would look like, like, with your SNAP benefits? And then if you can imagine, you know, if you don't have the SNAP benefits, what a dinner looks like in that situation too.

有食品券时，我们吃不上像样的南方菜，比如炸鸡、青豆、土豆泥、面包卷这些好东西。但没有的话，基本就是热狗、泡面之类的。这真的不健康，真的不。

With the SNAP benefits, we don't have a good southern meal, like fried chicken and green beans, mashed potatoes, all the good stuff, rolls, all that. But without it's more like hot dogs and ramen noodles and stuff like that. And that's just not healthy. It's really not. When

你大概两周前是否得知自己可能无法领取11月份的福利金了？

did you find out that you probably weren't going to be receiving benefits for November? About two weeks ago.

政府停摆时我们就隐约意识到，如果人们连工资都拿不到，政府补助会是他们最不关心的事。

When the government got shut down, we kinda had an idea that, you know, like, if people aren't gonna get paid their their salaries, then government assistance is gonna be the last thing they're worried about.

当你突然意识到这一点时，那种感受如何？

And, you know, when that realization kinda struck you, how did that make you feel?

这让我觉得在立法者心中，我的重要性不如从前。我曾为海军效力报效国家，现在却感觉我们退伍军人家庭被双重轻视，就像被随意抛弃一样。

It made me feel less important to my lawmakers than what I used to feel. It's I served our country in the Navy, and it's like I feel like my family, as veterans, doubly gets looked down upon because we just get cast aside.

我们很愤怒。非常愤怒。因为我们确实应该被重视。

We're angry. We're angry. Because, you know, we do count.

说实话，我内心充满怨恨。我原本是特朗普的坚定支持者，但现在觉得他只在乎金钱和帮助富人，根本不管真正需要帮助的人。

To be honest, I have a lot of hatred. Like and Trump was one of those that I was all for. But now I feel like he's more about the money and helping the rich and, like, not caring about the people that really do need help.

那些民主党人根本不该领工资，他们个个都是富豪。这又不会让他们伤筋动骨，他们的子孙后代也不会挨饿。你懂我意思吧？

The Democrats down there, they don't need to be getting their payday, but they're all rich people. So it don't, you know, it don't hurt. Their kids and grandkids ain't gonna go hungry. You know what I mean?

你这个月打算怎么维持生计？

What are your plans for making ends meet this month?

狩猎季节快到了，这能帮上大忙。政府根本靠不住，所以你得

Hunting season's coming in, so that helps out a lot. You can't really depend on the government really for nothing, so you gotta

多吃点松鼠肉。

Eat more squirrel.

还有鹿肉。

And deer.

如果我有孩子，我告诉你，我一定会喂饱他们。不管用什么方法，我都要让他们吃饱。

If I had children, I'm gonna tell you something. I'm gonna feed them babies. Whatever it takes to do it, I'm gonna feed them.

你觉得人们会变得非常绝望吗？

You think people might get really desperate?

是的，他们现在已经很绝望了。

Yeah. They are now.

到头来，我们会为一片面包这样简单的东西反目成仇。

We're gonna be against each other over something as simple as a loaf of bread before it's over.

已经有人不得不在食物和药品之间做选择了。

There's already people that have to decide between food and their medicine.

你曾面临过这样的选择吗？

Have you ever had to make a choice like that?

有过几次。有过几次。

Couple of times. Couple of times.

要不是这家食物银行，大概两个月前，我和小孙子就要饿上十来天。我们靠食物银行提供的土豆泥和通心粉撑了四天。如果没有这些，我和那孩子就什么吃的都没有了。大多数时候我都没吃完，因为要确保他能吃上。

And it wasn't for this food bank, you know, about two months ago. If it wasn't for this food bank, me and my little grandson would have starved for about ten days. We eat mashed potatoes and macaroni for four days out of this food bank, and I wouldn't have had nothing to eat with that little boy if I hadn't them. And most of the time, I didn't eat it all because I'm making sure he had something.

我很难过。

I'm so sorry.

是的，这非常令人沮丧。你能理解吧？我觉得这真是可悲，穷人们——那些已经无法工作的人，要知道我这辈子都在工作——居然连口饭都吃不上。

And, yes, it's very upsetting. You can understand that. Right? And I think it's a sad state of affairs when poor people that are not able to work anymore, and I've worked, believe me, my whole life, can't even get away to eat.

接下来，我的同事托尼·罗姆将解释华盛顿方面因SNAP资金延迟拨款而陷入的僵局。我们稍后回来。

Coming up, my colleague Tony Rom explains the standoff in Washington that's delayed SNAP funding. We'll be right back.

我是贾斯敏·乌略亚，《纽约时报》的全国政治记者。我在德克萨斯州与墨西哥接壤的边境地区长大，从高中起就开始在该地区进行报道。如今我走遍全国，寻找那些真正体现移民和国家人口结构变化对人们意味着什么的故事和声音。我不断发现的是，在这个极具争议的问题上，人们并不简单地归属于某个意识形态阵营。存在许多灰色地带，而我认为那里藏着最有趣的故事。

My name is Jasmine Ulloa, and I'm a national politics reporter for The New York Times. I grew up in Texas on the border with Mexico, and I've been reporting in the region since I was in high school. Now I travel the country looking for stories and voices that really capture what immigration and the nation's demographic changes mean for people. What I keep encountering is that people don't fall into neat ideological boxes on this very volatile issue. There's a lot of gray, and that's where I feel the most interesting stories are.

我正努力将这种复杂性和细微差别呈现给我们的读者，这也是《纽约时报》政治团队所有同事和每位记者共同追求的目标。我们的使命是帮助您理解这个世界，无论它多么复杂。如果您想支持这一使命，请考虑订阅《纽约时报》，您可以通过nytimes.com/subscribe完成订阅。

I'm trying to bring that complexity and nuance to our audience, and that's really what all of my colleagues on the politics team and every journalist at The New York Times is aiming to do. Our mission is to help you understand the world no matter how complicated it might be. If you want to support this mission, consider subscribing to The New York Times. You can do that at nytimes.com/subscribe.

那么托尼，我们的制作人在西弗吉尼亚州一家食品救济站采访时听到了许多民众的声音，他们普遍感到困惑和担忧。你能解释一下目前SNAP资金的情况吗？

So, Tony, we heard from people that our producers interviewed at a food pantry in West Virginia, and we heard a lot of confusion and a lot of worry. Could you explain what is going on with SNAP funding right now?

SNAP项目正处于非常困难的境地，您在西弗吉尼亚州听到的担忧也是我们在全国范围内听到的，因为这次停摆已持续近六周。SNAP是为全国约4200万人提供服务的项目。尽管它在法律上是永久性项目，但立法者每年都需要为其拨款。由于停摆持续时间过长，SNAP的正常预算已经耗尽，这使得该项目处于十字路口。

SNAP is in a very difficult place, and the concerns that you're hearing out of West Virginia are concerns that we're hearing nationally as this shutdown now lapses almost into its sixth week. SNAP is a program that serves about 42,000,000 people across the country. And even though it's a permanent fixture in law, lawmakers have to put money into that program every year. But because the shutdown has gone on so long, SNAP has exhausted its normal budget. And so that's left this program at a bit of a crossroads.

您一直在关注针对政府关于不会或不能发放任何SNAP资金立场的法律挑战。这些挑战目前进展如何？

You've been following some legal challenges to the administration's position that it wouldn't or couldn't release any SNAP funding. What is the status of those challenges?

我们看到许多城市、州和非营利组织就特朗普政府在停摆期间处理SNAP项目的方式提起诉讼。这一切源于政府几周前做出的决定。最初，美国农业部表示如果停摆持续到11月，将动用一组特殊的应急资金支付SNAP福利。截至10月下旬，这笔资金约为50亿美元，本应用于SNAP资金不足以覆盖所有人福利的情况。虽然数额巨大，但仍不足以满足每月约80亿美元的资金需求以维持福利发放。

We've seen a number of cities and states and nonprofits file lawsuits against the Trump administration over the way that it has handled SNAP during the government shutdown. And this all stemmed from a decision that the administration made just a few weeks ago. Initially, USDA said it was going to tap a special set of emergency funds to pay SNAP benefits if the shutdown dragged into November. This is a pot of money that was roughly about $5,000,000,000 or so as of late October that's supposed to be used in instances where SNAP doesn't have enough to cover benefits for everybody. And that's a lot, but still not enough to hit the roughly $8,000,000,000 or so that it needs every month to keep those benefits flowing.

但政府突然表示最终不会动用这笔资金，这导致我们在进入11月时面临巨大的财政悬崖。于是各城市、州、宗教团体等纷纷起诉政府，实质上是为了迫使资金释放。在两起案件中，联邦法官都发现特朗普政府在管理SNAP计划时存在严重问题，但截至目前仅有一个法院命令政府必须使用这笔资金，并要求政府在周一前说明具体执行方案。我们最终从政府处获得了答复。简而言之，特朗普政府仅打算动用为SNAP预留的少量应急资金，而非其他闲置的政府资金。

But sort of abruptly, the administration said it wasn't going to use this money after all, and that created this huge fiscal financial cliff that we were seeing for the program as we entered November. And so cities and states and religious groups and others filed lawsuits against the administration, essentially to force the release of funds. In both cases, federal judges have found serious issues with the way that the Trump administration has handled the SNAP program, but only one of those courts, at least so far, has ordered the administration to spend that money and told the administration that it had until Monday to essentially say how it was going to do so. We finally got that information from the administration. And the short of it is that the Trump administration's just going to tap only the small set of emergency funds that it has for SNAP and not some of the other money it has laying around across government.

因此政府将向民众发放部分款项，但这些部分付款可能只有家庭11月预期金额的一半左右。甚至这笔钱何时能送达数百万依赖SNAP的民众手中尚不明确。所以从某些方面看，这算是该计划参与者的某种胜利，但能否真正提供这些家庭所需的救济仍存疑问。

And as a result of that, it's going to make partial payments to people, but those partial payments may be perhaps half of what families are expecting to see in the month of November. And it's not even clear when that money might reach the millions of people who depend on SNAP. So while in some ways, it was a bit of a victory for people who subscribe to this program, it's a little unclear if it's actually going to provide the kind of relief that these families truly need.

这类情况是否有先例？以前发生过类似事件吗？

Is there any precedent for any of this? Has anything like this happened before?

没有。我们在SNAP计划中从未见过这种情况。联邦安全网计划确实经常存在争议，但诉讼双方在法庭上都承认，这种情况确实前所未有。

No. No. We've we haven't seen anything like this with the SNAP program. I mean, there are fights around federal safety net programs all the time. But, you know, both sides admitted while they were in court that there had never really been anything like this.

可以想象这对4000万依赖该资金解决温饱的家庭来说非常困惑。能否再说明下受益人群特征？资金用途是什么？计划具体如何运作？

So I can imagine that this is really confusing to the 40,000,000 people that rely on this funding to feed themselves or their families. Can you remind us who are these folks? What does the money get used for, and how exactly does the program work?

SNAP即补充营养援助计划，是联邦政府最大的反饥饿项目。每月约有4200万人领取福利，相当于每八个美国人中就有一个受益者。这些人群遍布全国，居住在农村和城市地区，分布在民主党和共和党倾向的社区中。

So SNAP is the supplemental nutrition assistance program, and it's the largest anti hunger program that the federal government offers. There are about 42,000,000 or so people who receive benefits under SNAP every single month, which amounts to about one in eight Americans. And these are people located all over the country. They live in rural and urban areas. They live in Democratic and Republican leaning communities.

其中许多是儿童，也有退伍军人、老年人等，覆盖了依赖这一关键联邦安全网计划的广泛人群。但该计划存在限制条件：通常申请者收入需接近贫困线水平。

Many of them are children. Some of them are veterans. They're seniors. It's a pretty wide swath of the population that relies on this critical federal safety net program, But there are some restrictions to it. Generally speaking, to get on SNAP, you have to make or earn an amount of money near the poverty line.

对于符合条件的人群，每人每月平均可获得约187美元的补助，这笔钱对帮助他们购买食品杂货至关重要，但仍无法完全满足其全部营养需求。正因如此，SNAP（补充营养援助计划）才与食品银行等其他服务共同构成了美国应对饥饿问题的整体解决方案。简而言之，该计划的运作方式是：联邦政府批准SNAP资金，最终这笔钱会流向各州并存入数百万美国人使用的福利卡中。

For people who qualify, the average benefit per person is about a $187 a month, which is critical to helping these people buy groceries, but doesn't go all the way in meeting all of their nutrition needs. And so that's why SNAP is part of this bigger picture of food pantries and other services that help address the issue of hunger here in The United States. And in short, the way it works is that the federal government approves money for SNAP, and eventually, that money makes its way to states and onto benefit cards that millions of Americans use.

SNAP最初是如何成为政府重点针对对象的？

How did SNAP end up in the crosshairs of the administration to begin with?

SNAP长期以来一直是共和党的重点针对目标，甚至早于本届政府。因为共和党普遍认为，许多领取福利的人实际上并不需要或不应获得这些补助。因此我们看到共和党多次主导行动，限制SNAP参与资格和福利待遇范围。最近在总统税收方案的辩论中，共和党为抵消该法案巨额成本采取的措施之一就是削减SNAP，并对受助者实施新的工作要求——这虽为华盛顿节省了开支，却也导致数百万人可能因此失去福利。从多方面来看，当前局面正是这一策略在更大范围内的体现。

SNAP has been in the crosshairs of Republicans for some time now. It even predates this administration because there's a belief among Republicans that many of the people who receive those benefits don't actually need them or don't deserve them. And so we've seen a number of instances in which Republicans have led efforts to restrict who can be part of SNAP and the kinds of benefits that people can receive. And we saw this most recently in the context of the debate around the president's tax package, where one of the ways Republicans offset the massive cost of that bill was to cut SNAP to impose new work requirements on recipients, which helped save Washington some money, but also created a situation in which millions of people may lose access to benefits as a result. And so in many ways, what we're seeing right now is that play out on a much larger scale.

虽然特朗普总统在政府停摆期间愿意调动预算中的各类资金以缓解影响，但他主要照顾的是其个人关注的项目或对其政治议程至关重要的领域。而对于SNAP等共和党长期试图削减的项目，本届政府就显得不那么慷慨，也不愿灵活调配资金。事实上，这就是政府仅提供部分付款的原因——完全是迫于法院命令。

Because while president Trump has been willing to move around various pots of money within the budget during the shutdown to ease some of its impacts, he's largely done that for programs that he personally cares about or those that may be essential to his political agenda. But in others like SNAP, where Republicans have long sought to cut, this administration has not been as generous and hasn't been as willing to move money around. And indeed, that's why this administration is only providing partial payments. It's because a court has told them to.

你的意思是，在政府停摆期间，当局找到了各种方式——有些存疑，有些临时——来为其他需要资金的项目（比如军费、联邦雇员薪资等）筹措资金。所以这看起来更像是蓄意为之，我不禁要问：扣留SNAP福利在政治上究竟能达成什么目的？

Basically, what you're saying is that during the shutdown, the administration has found ways, sometimes questionable, sometimes temporary, but nevertheless, has found ways to pay for other things it needs to fund, like the military, for example, other federal employees. So this feels a little bit more deliberate, and I just sort of wonder what purpose withholding snap serves politically.

某种程度上这是政治报复。回溯几周前，当特朗普总统被问及如何处理政府停摆时，他声称要拿'民主党项目'开刀。当时他并未具体说明含义，但自那以后我们看到的是：整个行政系统都在刻意切断他们认为与政治对手相关的资金流。

In some ways, this is about political retribution. If you rewind the clock back a few weeks, when president Trump was asked about the shutdown and how he was going to handle it, he said that he was going to go after, quote, Democrat programs. And president Trump at the time didn't really explain what he meant. He didn't identify anything specific. But what we have seen since the president made that threat is a very deliberate effort across the administration to cut funding streams that they associate with members of the political opposition.

甚至特朗普总统几天前也间接承认了这点，他说SNAP计划的受益者主要是民主党人，该计划覆盖的大多是民主党选民。我们知道事实并非如此。但整件事明显是在针对民主党支持的领域，试图逼迫他们回到谈判桌前。

And even president Trump sort of acknowledged this just a few days ago when he said that the SNAP program was one that largely benefited Democrats, that most of the people on the program were Democratic voters. We know that that is not indeed the case. But throughout all of this has just been this very clear effort to go after areas that Democrats like in a bid to pressure them into coming to the negotiating table.

这如何符合特朗普政府削减政府规模、缩减政府职能、削减项目的大议程？

How does this fit into sort of the larger agenda of the Trump administration vis a vis cutting the government, shrinking the government, cutting programs.

确实。从很多方面来看，围绕SNAP计划的这场斗争和危机，正是特朗普总统自重返白宫以来在联邦支出领域所有行动的缩影。一方面，这关乎重新思考政府在美国人生活中的规模、影响范围和角色。从总统试图削减的联邦医疗、教育、科研等项目，以及他提出的2026财年预算案（若获国会通过将使国内支出降至现代历史最低水平）中都能看出这点。

Yeah. In many ways, this fight, this crisis around SNAP is just a microcosm of everything that president Trump has been trying to do with federal spending since he returned to office. You know, on one hand, this is about rethinking the size and the reach and the role of government in Americans' lives. And you can see that in the programs that the president has looked to cut. That's cuts to federal health and education and science and research and other programs, and the reality that his budget for the 2026 fiscal year, if congress were to adopt it, would set domestic spending at its lowest level in modern history.

但更重要的是，特朗普总统及其首席预算顾问拉塞尔·沃格特在未经国会批准的情况下（根据宪法国会掌握财政权），不遗余力地重新调整预算。他们关闭了整个机构、解雇大批员工、未经立法者支持就叫停国会批准的数十亿美元联邦支出。SNAP计划正处于这场改革的核心，因为它既体现了总统重构联邦安全网计划的意图，也展现了他为实现目标不惜动用行政权力的决心。

But beyond that, the other really dynamic facet of all of this is that president Trump and his top budget adviser, Russell Vogt, have gone to great lengths to recalibrate the budget without the approval of congress, which has that power of the purse under the constitution. They have closed entire agencies and laid off droves of workers and halted billions of dollars in federal spending enacted by congress without getting lawmakers' support. And so the SNAP program just really sits in the middle of all that because it shows the ways in which the president wants to rethink those federal safety net programs and the cuts that he aspires to make, but also the ways he's willing to use presidential power to achieve them.

既然政府已表示将遵守法院命令，至少部分恢复SNAP计划资金，那么领取该福利的人们需要多久才能实际看到账户到账？

So now that the administration has said that it will comply with the court order and find a way to fund the SNAP program, at least partially, how quickly does that mean that people who receive SNAP benefits will actually see that money in their accounts?

这正是关键问题。简言之，目前尚无定论。因为特朗普政府此前向法院表示，由于采用部分支付方式，联邦政府与各州可能需要数周甚至数月才能将福利发放给数百万依赖者。如果政府选择全额支付并通过其他资金渠道填补缺口，本可避免这种情况，但特朗普政府拒绝这样做。

Yeah. That's the big question. And in short, we just don't know yet. Because the Trump administration previously told the court that by providing partial payments, it could take potentially weeks or maybe in some cases months before the federal government and the states could get these benefits out to the millions of people who depend on them. This could have been avoided potentially if the government had chosen to provide full payments and had tapped other sources of money to backfill that shortfall, but the Trump administration opted not to do that.

因此，数百万民众如今仍像几天前一样，对下一笔SNAP款项何时到账充满不确定性。

And as a result, millions of people still find themselves facing the same uncertainty today that they did a few days ago about when that next snap payment is going to arrive.

这让我想回到西弗吉尼亚州——特朗普在上次选举中轻松获胜的州。人们既愤怒又困惑，不明白为何失去福利。听起来政治盘算是认为这最终将更有利于共和党，特别是在政府停摆谈判中。但你认为这种判断正确吗？

Which makes me wonder just to go back to West Virginia for a minute, a state that Trump won handily in the last election. People are angry, and people are confused. They don't understand why they're losing their benefits. And so it sounds like the political calculation is that this will ultimately benefit Republicans more, especially in these shutdown negotiations. But do you think that that is correct?

你对已经完成的政治算计有何评估？

What is your assessment of the political calculation that's been done?

是的。我认为他们押注于：第一，这将是一种迫使民主党人进行谈判的手段；第二，即便没有这种压力，总统也能在不经国会投票的情况下实现他作为2026年预算提案的部分目标。至于这是否会被美国民众视为胜利还有待观察。我认为在某些时候，人们会将政府全面削减开支及其对日常生活的影响归咎于现任政府。

Yeah. I think they bet that, a, it will be the kind of thing that pressures Democrats into negotiating. And b, that absent that, the president can accomplish what he proposed to do as part of his 2026 budget even without having congress vote on it. Whether that translates into a victory in the eyes of the American people remains to be seen. I think there have been times where people have blamed the administration for the cuts across government and the ways that that's affected their daily lives.

但也有时候，我认为人们会把发生的一切归咎于华盛顿的普遍混乱。结果不是将其视为某一党派的作为，而是又一次削弱了他们对政府工作的信心。因此在很多方面，我认为这是此事最持久的后果之一——这不过是又一个让民众看着华盛顿心想'这地方没为我做任何事，在我最需要时也指望不上它'的例证。从很多方面来说，这确实浓缩体现了国家首都的糟糕现状，以及当两党无法对话时可能在此过程中受到伤害的真实人群。

But there's also been times where I think people just blame what's happening on just the general mess of Washington. And the result isn't that they see it as the work of one party or another, but just another chip away at their confidence in the work of government. And so I think that's, in many ways, one of the lasting repercussions here. It's just another instance where people look at Washington and think, this place isn't doing anything for me, and I can't count on it for help when I'm in my greatest need. And so in many ways, it really just distills how bad things have gotten here in the nation's capital and the real people who might be hurt in the process when the two parties can't talk to each other.

托尼，谢谢

Tony, thank

非常感谢你。

you so much.

谢谢邀请。

Thanks for having me.

我们稍后继续。以下是今日其他要闻：金佰利将以400亿美元收购泰诺制造商Kenview，这标志着这家消费品巨头押注这款止痛药能经受住特朗普总统及其政府的连番抨击。总统等人曾提出未经证实的说法，称怀孕期间使用泰诺等对乙酰氨基酚产品可能导致自闭症。此外，特朗普总统在选举日前夕对纽约市长竞选发表了看法。

We'll be right back. Here's what else you need to know today. Kimberly Clark will buy Kenview, the maker of Tylenol, for $40,000,000,000, a signal that the consumer products giant is betting that the pain killer can weather a barrage of attacks from president Trump and his administration. The president and others have made unproven claims that the use of Tylenol and other acetaminophen products during pregnancy can lead to autism. And president Trump weighed in on the race for New York City mayor on the eve of election day.

在一篇社交媒体帖子中，他支持前州长安德鲁·科莫对抗民主党提名候选人、州议员佐兰·马姆达尼的艰难选战，并誓言若马姆达尼胜选将限制流向纽约市的联邦资金。本期节目由奥利维亚·纳特和安娜·弗利在穆吉·扎伊迪协助下完成报道与制作，帕特里夏·威伦斯在佩奇·考埃特协助下进行编辑，苏珊·李负责事实核查。音乐由玛丽安·洛萨诺和丹·鲍威尔创作，克里斯·伍德负责技术制作。

In a social media post, he endorsed former governor Andrew Cuomo in his uphill battle to defeat assemblyman Zoran Mamdani, the Democratic nominee. And he vowed to limit federal funds going to New York City if Mamdani wins. Today's episode was reported and produced by Olivia Natt and Anna Foley with help from Mooj Zaidi. It was edited by Patricia Willens with help from Paige Cowet and fact checked by Susan Lee. Contains music by Marian Lozano and Dan Powell and was engineered by Chris Wood.

特别感谢大卫·费伦福尔德、雷切尔·卡尔伯森以及'直面饥饿'食品银行。以上就是本期《每日播报》的全部内容，我是雷切尔·艾布拉姆斯，明天见。

Special thanks to David Ferenfold, Rachel Culbertson, and the Facing Hunger Food Bank. That's it for The Daily. I'm Rachel Abrams. See you tomorrow.