埃及和平峰会，以及美国国际开发署的停摆教训

这是你需要解读的头条新闻。

It's your headline to unpack.

这是你每周都要跟进的一个故事。

It's your one story to follow week by week.

这是你需要完成的Wordle游戏。

It's your Wordle to work through.

这是你需要追踪的团队。

It's your team to track.

这是你需要探索的三十六小时。

It's your thirty six hours to explore.

这是你需要掌握的腌料配方。

It's your marinade to master.

这是你需要想明白的观点。

It's your opinion to figure out.

这是你升级床垫的时候了。

It's your mattress to upgrade.

今天是你了解圣母大学还需要什么的日子。

It's your day to know what else you need to Notre Dame.

《纽约时报》。这是你理解世界的窗口。了解更多请访问nytimes.com/yourworld。

The New York Times. It's your world to understand. Find out more at nytimes.com/yourworld.

我是特拉维夫的瑞秋。在进入今天节目的其他内容之前，先带来中东地区的最新动态。周一，在哈马斯从加沙地带归还20名生还人质后，以色列开始释放近2000名巴勒斯坦囚犯返回加沙和约旦河西岸。大批人群聚集在汗尤尼斯的纳赛尔医院附近，获释的巴勒斯坦囚犯被送往那里。

It's Rachel in Tel Aviv. Before we get to the rest of today's show, here's an update from the Middle East. On Monday, after Hamas returned 20 living hostages from Gaza, Israel began releasing nearly 2,000 Palestinian prisoners back to Gaza and the West Bank. Large crowds gathered near Nasser hospital in Khan Yunis, where released Palestinian prisoners were taken.

下午好。晚上好。

Good afternoon. Good evening.

你好，穆斯塔法。很高兴听到你的声音。我与加沙的英语教师穆斯塔法·阿布塔哈进行了交谈，自战争开始以来我一直与他保持联系。穆斯塔法，你能描述一下巴勒斯坦囚犯返回时的场景吗？外面的情况看起来怎么样？

Hi, Mustafa. It's nice to hear your voice. I talked to Mustafa Abutaha, an English teacher in Gaza I've been in touch with since the start of the war. Mustafa, can you describe the scene when the Palestinian prisoners returned? What did it look like outside?

他当时就在人群之中。

He was there amongst the crowd.

这可以说是我在加沙一生中见过的最庞大、最壮观、最人山人海的场面。我曾见过人山人海的景象。所以，你知道，言语难以形容人们有多么惊叹，所有人都开始挥手、呼喊、跳舞。我也跳舞了，还唱了一首歌。

This is, I would say, the biggest, the largest, the most enormous crowd I have ever seen in my life in Gaza. I had seen mountains of people. So, you know, words are not enough to describe how people, you know, are feeling so amazed, and all of them start waving, shouting, dancing. I dance, and I sang a song.

你唱了什么歌，穆斯塔法？

What did you sing, Mustafa?

自由回来了。自由回来了。经过两年的毁灭、破坏和大规模杀戮，战争终于结束了。我们希望和平能够持续。

Freedom is back. Freedom is back. After two years of devastation, destruction, mass killing, the war has come to an end. We want peace to prevail.

你说战争已经结束了，穆斯塔法，但还有很多细节需要解决。所以我想知道你对此有多大的信心和乐观。

You said that the war has come to an end, Mustafa, but there are so many details to be worked out yet. So I'm just wondering how confident and optimistic you feel about that.

没关系，因为美国总统唐纳德·特朗普说了，战争结束了。是的，战争结束了。

That's okay because the American president, Donald Trump, said the war is over. Yeah. War is over.

非常感谢大家。

Thank you very much, everybody.

与此同时，在耶路撒冷。

Meanwhile, in Jerusalem.

这不仅仅是一场战争的结束。这是一个恐怖与死亡时代的终结，也是信仰、希望与上帝时代的开端。

This is not only the end of a war. This is the end of a age of terror and death and the beginning of the age of faith and hope and of God.

特朗普向以色列议会传达了他的和平信息。

Trump brought his message of peace to the Israeli parliament.

这是以色列和所有国家伟大和谐与持久和平的开始，这片区域很快将变得真正辉煌。我对此深信不疑。这是新中东的历史性黎明。

It's the start of a grand concord and lasting harmony for Israel and all the nations of what will soon be a truly magnificent region. I believe that so strongly. This is the historic dawn of a new Middle East.

我的同事大卫·桑格正在报道特朗普的中东之行。大卫，你现在在耶路撒冷，特朗普总统实际上向以色列议会（Knesset）发表了讲话，你观看了演讲。在我看来他显然是在进行胜利巡礼，我很好奇你的看法是什么。

My colleague, David Sanger, is covering Trump's trip to the Middle East. David, you are in Jerusalem where president Trump actually spoke to the Israeli parliament, Knesset, and you watched the speech. It appeared to me that he was clearly taking a victory lap, and I'm curious what your takeaway was.

他是在进行一场奉承巡礼。

He was taking an adulation lap.

我

I

的意思是，当空军一号飞过人质广场上空时，你听到人们高喊'特朗普！特朗普！'。这种呼声在他到达议会时仍在持续。几乎他所到之处，无论是内塔尼亚胡政府甚至反对派，都将最后迫使哈马斯释放最后人质的功劳归于他。而就在今晚我们说话时，加沙已没有活着的人质了。

mean, when air force one came down over Hostages Square, you heard people yelling, Trump. Trump. And it kept up when he got to the nest at the parliament. Almost every place he went from both the Netanyahu government and even the opposition, he was given the credit for the final turn of the screw that got Hamas to release the last hostages. And tonight, as we speak, there are no living hostages in Gaza.

这是多年来的第一次。

That's been the first time in years.

没错。

Right.

但瑞秋，今天真正有趣的是特朗普的信息。他明确表示，就我而言，战争已经结束。你没有从总理本雅明·内塔尼亚胡那里听到这样的话。

But what was really interesting today though, Rachel, was Trump's message. He said explicitly, as far as I'm concerned, the war is over. You didn't hear that from Bibi Netanyahu, the prime minister.

这种对比真的让我印象深刻。特朗普似乎在宣扬他已经实现和平的观点，但内塔尼亚胡对和平进程的现状要谨慎得多。他并没有承诺战争已经结束。

That contrast really struck me. Trump seems like he's projecting this idea that he has made peace, but Netanyahu has been really much more circumspect on where we are in the peace process. He is not committed to the war being over.

完全正确，瑞秋。原因很简单。特朗普总统提出了一个20点计划，然后对内塔尼亚胡施压让他签署。内塔尼亚胡签署是基于一个并非不正确的假设，即其中有一些内容是哈马斯无法同意的，首先是哈马斯必须解除武装——这是内塔尼亚胡的要求之一——并撤出加沙，放弃任何控制权或想法。所以当哈马斯回应时，他们同意了第一部分，即释放人质以换取数百名巴勒斯坦囚犯从以色列监狱获释。

That's exactly right, Rachel. And the reason is simple. President Trump turned out a 20 plan, then twisted Netanyahu's arm to get him to sign on to it. Netanyahu did on the assumption, not incorrect, that there were things in there Hamas couldn't agree to, Starting with the fact that Hamas would have to disarm, along one of Netanyahu's demands, and move out of Gaza and give up any rights or thought of controlling it. So when Hamas came back, they agreed to part one, which was the hostage release in return for getting hundreds of Palestinian prisoners out of Israeli jails.

但他们表示，他们必须就剩余问题，包括解除武装，进行谈判。而特朗普总统只是将部分同意当作答案，并声称这构成了和平协议，但实际上并非如此。

But they said they would have to go negotiate on the remaining issues, including disarming. And president Trump just took a partial yes as an answer and said that constitutes a peace agreement, which it didn't.

不过，他似乎对加沙的未来没怎么提及，是吗？

He didn't seem to say much about the future of Gaza, though, did he?

你知道，雷切尔，那是演讲中缺失的关键要素。演讲持续了一个多小时，他完全脱稿了。他讲了史蒂夫·维特科夫会见弗拉基米尔·普京的故事，这与中东毫无关系。他还讲了当时在场的女婿贾里德·库什纳的故事，库什纳在其中扮演了重要角色。

You know, Rachel, that was the big missing element of the speech. And the speech went on for more than an hour. He went way off script. He told stories about Steve Witkoff meeting Vladimir Putin, which had nothing to do with the Middle East. He told stories about his son-in-law, Jared Kushner, who was there, who played a big role in this.

但他没有做的是告诉以色列议会他们接下来需要做什么。他从未提及两国解决方案或替代两国方案的方案。所以他从未讨论以色列必须做出的艰难选择。他一直停留在那种乐观空谈的层面。

But what he didn't do was talk to the Israeli parliament about what they needed to do next. He never mentioned a two state solution or an alternative to a two state solution. So he never talked about the hard choices Israel would have to make. He kept it all at the level of kind of happy talk.

嗯。

Mhmm.

雷切尔，那些细节本该是行程的下一部分。他去了埃及沙姆沙伊赫，会见了近30位世界领导人。他们本应就国际维稳部队做出一些决定，这支部队将进驻加沙以维持和平。他们本应就谁来支付加沙重建费用以及重建方案做出决定。但以色列不在场，哈马斯也不在场。

Now those details, Rachel, they were supposed to be the next part of the trip. He went to Sharm El Sheikh in Egypt and met with nearly 30 world leaders. They were supposed to make some decisions about an international stabilization force, which would go in to basically keep the peace in Gaza. They were supposed to make some decisions about who would pay to rebuild Gaza, what it would look like. But Israel wasn't there, and Hamas wasn't there.

而且会议时间不够长，无法深入探讨如何在加沙实现这一目标。

And the meeting just wasn't long enough to go into any depth about getting this done in Gaza.

我们有没有关于那次峰会取得了什么成果的迹象？

Do we have any indication about what came out of that summit?

我们现在不知道太多细节。我们知道他们签署了一份文件，基本上让这些国家同意了总统的20点计划。但你知道，这非常像开发商唐纳德·特朗普的风格。我会提出一个大概念，然后你们这些人可以去处理细节。问题在于外交中，事情往往不是这样运作的。

We don't know a whole lot of details now. We know they signed a document that basically signed these countries up to the president's 20 points. But, you know, this was very Donald Trump the developer. I'm gonna come in with a big concept, and then you people can go off and work out the details. The problem is in diplomacy, it frequently doesn't work that way.

而我最大的担忧，雷切尔，是我们现在拥有巨大的势头。今天是极其情绪化的一天。世界各地的人们都参与其中。问题是，既然唐纳德·特朗普宣称他已带来和平，你能否让他继续保持关注？你能否让世界其他国家继续参与重建加沙这一真正艰巨而细致的工作？

And the big worry that I have, Rachel, is that we've got tremendous momentum now. This was an incredibly emotional day. People around the world were engaged. And the question is, can you keep Donald Trump engaged now that he declares that he has brought about peace? And can you keep the rest of the world engaged in the really hard detailed work of rebuilding Gaza?

大卫，非常感谢你。

David, thank you so much.

谢谢你，雷切尔。

Thank you, Rachel.

好的。接下来由迈克尔带来今天节目的其余内容。

Okay. Here's Michael with the rest of today's show.

我是《纽约时报》的迈克尔·巴尔巴罗。这里是《每日新闻》。今天是政府停摆的第12天。现在特朗普总统正下令大规模联邦裁员。

From the New York Times, I'm Michael Barbaro. This is The Daily. It's day 12 of the government shutdown. Now president Trump is ordering mass federal layoffs.

在一份法庭文件中，预算办公室表示，多个机构的4000多名员工将收到裁员通知。

In a court filing, the budget office said more than 4,000 employees across several agencies will receive layoff notices.

美国政府停摆，目前还看不到尽头，这赋予了特朗普政府极大的权力来重塑并在某些情况下大幅削减数十个机构。

The shutdown of the US government, for which there is no end in sight, has given the Trump administration an extraordinary amount of power to remake and in some cases to decimate dozens of agencies.

商务部、教育部、国土安全部和疾控中心仅是受影响的机构中的一部分。

The departments of Commerce, Education, Homeland Security and the CDC are just some of the agencies impacted.

在很多方面，这是政府在1月份那非凡的两周里学会运用的一种权力，当时它系统性地摧毁了美国国际开发署。今天，克里斯·弗拉维尔将讲述他从内部重建该机构消亡过程中所学到的东西。今天是10月14日，星期二。克里斯，在现已进入第三周的政府停摆期间，特朗普政府发出的威胁是，它可能会利用停摆作为进一步削弱联邦官僚体系的理由。而你花了大量时间试图重建我认为是自今年1月重新掌权以来，这届白宫对政府进行的最大规模的削弱行动。

In many ways, it's a power that the administration learned how to wield during two extraordinary weeks back in January when it systematically destroyed USAID. Today, Chris Flavell on what he learned from reconstructing the death of that agency from the inside. It's Tuesday, October 14. Chris, throughout the government shutdown that's now entering its third week, the threat that the Trump administration has issued is that it might use the shutdown as the rationale to gut the federal bureaucracy, further gut the federal bureaucracy. And you have spent a lot of time trying to reconstruct what I would argue is the single greatest act of government gutting by this White House since it took back power in January.

因此，我们想知道你从那次报道中学到了哪些经验教训，可能适用于当前这个停摆时刻。

And so we wondered what lessons you learned from that reporting that might apply to this moment, to this shutdown.

是的。那一刻感觉像是很久以前的事了，但回想一下特朗普新政府上任的头几天，正如你所说，他们在几天内就彻底清除了整个政府机构——美国国际开发署，即国际开发机构。当时如此彻底地裁撤掉一万名联邦雇员，实在令人震惊，所以我想要回顾此事，了解发生了什么以及背后的思考是什么。策略是什么？而我发现，实际上并没有一个消灭美国国际开发署的计划，至少一开始没有。

Yeah. The moment feels like a lifetime ago, but think back to the first few days of the new Trump administration when, as you said, they wiped out an entire government agency, USAID, the agency for international developments in a matter of days. And it was so complete and so sort of shocking at the time to basically get rid of 10,000 federal workers that I wanted to go back to it and understand what happened and what was the thinking behind it. What was the strategy? And what I found out was there wasn't, in fact, a plan to kill off USAID, at least not at first.

这在一定程度上是临时起意的，像是一系列相互叠加的决定和冲突，推动了一个意识形态上一致但结果证明并非精心策划的议程。他们在寻找机会，并且一旦出现就非常积极地加以利用。

It happens a little bit on the fly, sort of a series of decisions and clashes that built on each other to advance an agenda that is ideologically consistent, but not, it turned out, all that planned out. They were looking for opportunities and willing to use them really aggressively when they came up.

有趣的是，你发现美国国际开发署的覆灭基本上是即兴而为。因为现在，在这次停摆期间，联邦政府遭受类似美国国际开发署那样的创伤威胁感觉相当明确。

It's interesting that you have found that the obliteration of USAID was essentially improvised. Because right now, during this shutdown, the threat of traumas to the federal government like what happened at USAID feels quite explicit.

完全正确。我认为美国国际开发署的案例研究至今仍然非常有启发性，因为它显示了他们如何愿意即兴行事以及这种方式可能多么有效。我认为这在很大程度上适用于停摆，它告诉我们，停摆的结果可能不仅由严格的法律决定，还包括我们在开始时无法想象的结果。

That's exactly right. And I think the reason the case study of USAID remains really instructive today is it shows how they were willing to improvise and how effective that could be. I think that applies in an important way to the shutdown where it tells us maybe the outcome of the shutdown will not be dictated just by what is strictly legal, but also outcomes that we couldn't have imagined when it began.

那么，克里斯，请带我们深入了解你拼凑出的这个故事：在这两周内，美国国际开发署是如何从一个正常运作的机构最终消失的？

Well, Chris, take us inside the story that you have pieced together of this two weeks during which USAID went from a fully functioning agency to ultimately vanishing?

是的。这其实只是几个关键人物的故事。让我们从一位名叫杰森·格雷的人说起。他是一位资深联邦公务员，曾在多个大型机构工作。关键的是，他在美国国际开发署仅工作了大约两年，就在本届政府上任之初几乎毫无预警地被选中负责该机构。

Yeah. It's really the story of just a few key characters. Let's start with a man named Jason Gray. Longtime federal civil servant, worked at a number of big agencies. Crucially, had only been at AID for about two years when he was picked at the very beginning of this administration, almost without warning, to be in charge of USAID.

杰森·格雷缺乏通常管理像美国国际开发署这样的机构所需的经验，这一点变得非常重要，因为就在同一天，也就是上任第一天，唐纳德·特朗普签署了一项行政命令，冻结了对外援助。这项命令并不令人意外。他曾表示会采取类似行动，但该命令的某些内容后来变得非常重要。实际上，它的含义并不明确。命令含糊地表示，政府将'立即暂停新的承诺和拨款'。

Now the fact that Jason Gray didn't have the kind of experience someone would usually have to run an agency like USAID became important when, on that very same day, on the first day in office, Donald Trump signed an executive order freezing foreign aid. That order wasn't surprising. He he indicated he would just think similar, but something about that order turned to be really important. It was actually unclear what it meant. The order confusingly said that the government would, quote, immediately pause new obligations and disbursements.

但美国国际开发署的大部分资金是用于全球已有的项目。这就留下了一个问题：这些项目会怎样？它们也应该停止吗？嗯。与我交谈的人表示，特朗普总统会停止现有项目的想法有点疯狂。

But a lot of the money that was flowing at USAID was for projects around the world already in existence. So that left open the question, well, what happens to those? Should those stop as well? Mhmm. The people I spoke with said the idea that president Trump would stop existing programs, which is sort of a little crazy.

对吧？可能还是非法的。所以他们甚至不认为那会是命令的本意。

Right? Probably illegal. So they didn't even think that would be what it was.

没错。我不是律师，但听到这项行政命令中的措辞——'暂停新的承诺'，听起来确实像是暂停新的支出，而不是旧的支出。

Right. And I'm not a lawyer, but hearing the language from this executive order, pause new obligations, certainly sounds like pause new spending, not old spending.

完全正确。事实上，对美国国际开发署内部的人来说，这似乎如此明显，以至于他们没有多加考虑。结果，大多数项目照常进行。但这时我们引入了第二个主要角色。皮特·摩洛哥是特朗普第一届政府中的关键人物。

That's exactly right. And in fact, it seems so obvious to the people inside USAID that they didn't give them much thought. And the result was most programs just kept continuing as they were. But this is where we introduce our second main character. Pete Morocco was a key figure in the first Trump administration.

他确实在那届政府最后几个月里曾在USAID（美国国际开发署）短暂任职，据我所知，人们记得他非常强势、咄咄逼人，非常热衷于执行特朗普总统的议程，这让一些人不太满意。最终他在USAID仅工作了几个月就离开了。而皮特·摩洛哥在第二届特朗普政府初期突然重新出现，因为他在国务院担任高级职务，作为对外援助主管，对USAID拥有一定权限。就在新政府上任仅仅几天后，他突然打电话给USAID的高级职员说：嘿。

He had a stint actually at USAID in the closing months of that administration, was remembered as being very hard charging, very aggressive, being very eager, I'm told, to enforce president Trump's agenda and left people a little unhappy. He eventually left after just a few months at USAID. Well, Pete Morocco suddenly reemerges in the early days of the second Trump administration because he has a senior role at the state departments, where as director of foreign assistance, he has some authority over USAID. And all of a sudden, just a few days into this new administration, he calls senior staff at USAID. He says, hey.

我注意到USAID仍在违反行政命令的情况下花钱。这是个严重问题，他表示要彻查此事。

It's come to my attention that AID is still spending money in violation of the executive order. This is a real problem, and he said he wanted to get to the bottom of it.

好的。于是突然间，对于这项行政命令的理解出现了冲突。新任机构负责人经验尚浅，看到命令措辞后觉得一切没问题；而那位老牌强势的特朗普派人物则进来表示：你们完全错了，所有支出现在必须停止。

Okay. So suddenly, you have a clashing view of what this executive order says. You got the newbie head of the agency, little out of his depth, seeing the language of the order and saying, I'm all good. You got the old line, hard charging Trump figure coming in and saying, you're totally wrong here. All spending is now done.

没错。就这样，新政府上任才四天，USAID的高层官员就在离白宫仅几个街区的总部开会，他们表态说：不。

That's right. So here we are. This is just like four days in to the new administration. Senior officials at the top of USAID gather for a meeting in the agency's headquarters, just a few blocks in the White House. And they said, no.

你知道吗？我们研究过了，认为这一切都是合规的。我们的资金使用方式可能比较复杂。他们私下想，也许皮特·摩洛哥只是不了解USAID的资金流动机制。

You know what? We looked at this. We think this is all above board. The way we spend money can be complicated. Perhaps, they said to themselves, Pete Morocco just maybe doesn't understand the way money flows from USAID.

嗯。我们可以解决这个问题。于是他们会议后制定的计划是：向皮特·摩洛哥解释清楚，应该就没问题了。

Mhmm. We can fix this. And so the plan they left that meeting with was, we'll explain ourselves to Pete Morocco, and this should be fine.

对，问题解决了。

Right. Problem solved.

当然，事情并未如此发展。就在新政府上任一周后的那个周一，皮特·摩洛哥首次出现在美国国际开发署总部。他表示前来是为了继续深入调查，他坚信问题尚未彻底解决，关键在于他并非孤身一人——他还带来了政府效率部的成员。

And, of course, that's not what happened. The following Monday, this is one week into the new administration, Pete Morocco, for the first time, shows up at the USAID headquarters. And he says he's there because he wants to keep on digging. He's not convinced this problem is fixed, fixed, and crucially, he's not alone. He brings with him members of the Department of Government Efficiency.

他声称这些人将协助查明问题根源。时至今日，想必大家都已了解'猎犬行动'(Doge)。对吧？该行动由埃隆·马斯克主导，旨在大幅削减开支并裁员。但当时才刚上任一周。

He says they're there to help him figure out what went wrong. And I think people at this point, as we speak today, know all about Doge. Right? Doge is under Elon Musk and went around looking for severe cuts and for ways to get rid of staff. But this is just one week in.

此时人们尚未认清'猎犬行动'的真实意图。他们还没意识到该小组出现在大楼里意味着多严重的后果。事实上，这是'猎犬行动'最早进驻的部门之一。嗯。直到当天晚些时候，人们才开始明白其真正目的。

People don't yet know at this point what Doge is all about. They didn't yet realize just how serious it was for Doge to be in the building. In fact, this is one of the first agencies that Doge went to. Mhmm. It was only later that day that people began to realize what Doge was there to do.

因为当天下午，'猎犬行动'的高层提出了要求：他们带着美国国际开发署57名高级官员名单闯入杰森·格雷的办公室，声称经过调查认为这些人与违规支付有关，要求立即对其实施行政停职并遣送回家。

Because that afternoon, senior figures from Doge made a demand. They went into Jason Grey's office with the list of 57 senior officials at USAID and said, we've done some digging. We think these 57 people were involved in these payments. We want them put on administrative leave and sent home.

于是'猎犬行动'突然变成了搜捕行动，专门追查违反行政令的支出责任人。他们就像是特朗普政府派来清算此事的执法部队。

So suddenly, Doge is operating as kind of a search and destroy operation to find the culprits for who has allowed spending to occur in violation of this executive order. They're kind of the enforcement arm of the Trump administration coming in to settle that matter.

没错。但据我采访的相关人员透露，这个说辞站不住脚——经过仔细核查，这57人根本不可能与支付事件有关。这份名单实则另有玄机：上面全是各部门最高领导层成员。这看起来更像是企图斩断美国国际开发署的指挥中枢。

That's right. But though that's the story they gave, the people I spoke with said it didn't really hold up because these 57 names weren't on closer inspection, people who were likely to have had anything to do with these payments. This list of names was something quite different. It was really the senior most people in leadership roles from around the agency. And so what it came to look like was an attempt to decapitate USAID.

明白了。当这些人各怀目的行动，且违规操作引发众怒之时，接下来发生了什么？

Okay. So as all these folks are pursuing their own ends, and there's a lot of anger in the air over the idea that rules are being broken, what happens next?

几天后，Doge团队回来向美国国际开发署官员提交了他们所谓的证据，说明为什么这57人不应复职。结果这些证据单薄得令人尴尬。内容是一封邮件，Doge团队一名成员几天前发给队友的，他在邮件中说：‘我审查了命令发布后的这些援助支付记录。’然后他列出了几个能访问系统的人员，接着又说：‘我可能搞错了。’

A few days later, Doge comes back and presents to USAID officials what they call their evidence for why these 57 people should not get to come back to their jobs. The evidence turns out to be painfully thin. It consists of an email that one of the members of the Doge team sent his teammates a few days earlier in which he said, quote, look, I reviewed these AID payments since the order. And then he lists some people who had access to the system, and then he goes on to say, I could be wrong.

所以这不足以作为终结美国国际开发署57名领导职业生涯的证据？

So this is not the evidence required to end the career of 57 leaders at USAID?

这是美国国际开发署内部专业人士的判断。特别是一位名叫尼古拉斯·戈特利布（Nicholas Gottlieb）的先生，他的职责是监督署内的员工和劳资关系。于是这位尼克·戈特利布突然成了这出大戏中的另一个角色。嗯。他看了这些证据后说：‘不行。’

That is the judgment of professionals inside USAID. In particular, a gentleman named Nicholas Gottlieb, whose role is to oversee employee and labor relations at USAID. So this Nick Gottlieb suddenly becomes another player in this saga. Mhmm. He looks at this evidence, and he says, no.

我不能同意仅凭这个就让这些高级领导继续停职。这不够充分。然后尼克·戈特利布做了两件对美国国际开发署未来至关重要的事。首先，他给那57人发了封邮件说：‘根据现有证据，我没有理由让你们继续停职。’

I cannot agree to keep these senior leaders on leave based on this. This is not sufficient. And then Nick Gottlieb does two things that prove to be tremendously important to the future of USAID. First, he sends an email to those 57 people saying, look, based on the evidence, I've got no basis for keeping you on leave.

嗯。

Mhmm.

但 arguably 更重要的是，他给杰森·格雷（Jason Grey）发了一份备忘录。他说他将把Doge的行为报告给特别检察官办公室，该办公室负责调查不当行为、保护举报人，并旨在保护联邦雇员。因此他威胁要对Doge的所作所为启动某种正式调查。

But then, arguably more important, he sends a memo to Jason Grey. He says he will report Doge's actions to the office of special counsel, which investigates wrongdoing and protects whistleblowers and is meant to protect federal employees. So he threatens to begin some sort of formal investigation of what Doge has done.

哇。所以尼克·戈特利布决定挺身而出，对抗这一切，并要求对美国国际开发署内部Doge的调查展开调查。

Wow. So Nick Gottlieb decides to stand up and fight all this and ask for an investigation into Doge's investigation inside of USAID.

是的。真的无法夸大这件事在多吉、皮特·摩洛哥乃至最终白宫眼中的严重程度。他们视此为绝对的不服从。他们的看法是，这个中层职业联邦公务员怎敢告诉我们能做什么、不能做什么？

Yeah. It's really impossible to overstate just what a big deal this was in the eyes of Doge and Pete Morocco and eventually the White House. They viewed this as absolute insubordination. Their view was, how dare this mid level career federal civil servants tell us what we can and cannot do?

这就是深层政府的化身。

This is the deep state personified.

这开始看起来非常像深层政府。它为接下来发生的事情定下了基调。这仅仅是政府上任十天。所以他们立刻找到了尼克·戈特利布，并把他赶出了大楼。哇。

This starts to look a lot like the deep state. And it set the tone for what happened next. This is just ten days in to the administration. So right away, they find Nick Gottlieb and march him out of the building. Wow.

但他们并未就此罢休。他们去找杰森·格雷，并说，你的员工尼克·戈特利布的这一行为表明你已经失去了对大楼的控制。所以他们要求杰森·格雷尝试重新掌控大楼。而他们希望他采取的方式是锁定所有员工的电话和电子邮件系统。

But they don't stop there. They go to Jason Gray, and they say, this action from your employee, from this Nick Gottlieb, it shows that you've lost control of the building. So they demanded that Jason Gray try to regain control of the building. And the way they wanted him to do it was to lock out the entire staff from their phone and email systems.

封锁全球在USAID工作的数千名员工中的每一个人，使他们无法使用在USAID工作所需的技术。

Block out every single one of the thousands of people who work at USAID around the world from the technology they use to work at USAID.

没错。值得一提的是，不清楚这个想法考虑得有多周全。我听到了不同的版本。有人说未必，他们只是想准备一个计划，他们想要这个选项。但根据我交谈过的所有人的说法，杰森·格雷听到的是他认为太过分的事情。

That's right. It's worth saying it's not clear how well thought out this idea was. I've heard different versions of it. Someone said not necessarily, they just wanted to prepare a plan, they wanted the option. But what Jason Grey heard by the accounts of everyone I spoke with was something that he viewed as too much.

他说，我们有人在战区，有人在加沙运送食物，有人在非洲抗击埃博拉。我不能封锁他们。那会让他们面临人身危险。我不会这样做。

He said, we've got people in combat zones, people delivering food in Gaza, people fighting Ebola in Africa. I cannot lock them out. That will put them in physical danger. I won't do it.

人们，他似乎在说，可能会死。

People, he's really seeming to say, could die.

没错。他说人们可能会死，这对他来说是一条不能逾越的底线。而在政府听来，这又是美国国际开发署不服从命令的又一个例子。几天之内，该机构实际上就被关闭了。

That's right. He said people could die, and that to him was line he wouldn't cross. And what that sounded like to the administration was yet another example of insubordination from USAID. And within days, the agency would effectively be shut down.

我们马上回来。

We'll be right back.

我是黛博拉·卡门，是《纽约时报》的调查记者。当我提到房地产时，我猜你会想到诸如租金成本、市场行情、抵押贷款利率是否会上涨之类的事情。而我所做的，是审视这些数字背后发生的事情。那些运营这个行业的人，这么多年来一直相对隐形。

I'm Deborah Kamen. I'm an investigative reporter at the New York Times. When I say real estate, I'm guessing you're thinking about things like the cost of rent, what the market looks like, whether or not mortgage rates are gonna go up. What I do is I look at what goes on beneath those numbers. The people running the industry, who for so many years have been relatively invisible.

我越是深入调查，就越是发现有人在以不道德的方式运作，而他们的不道德行为影响着每一个美国人。如果我们只关注数字，就像只报道选举结果而不关注政客一样。要了解系统为何如此，你必须理解背后做决策的人。在《纽约时报》，我们从不只在表层讲故事。我们总是更深入一点，帮助读者更好地理解某事不仅是什么，而且为什么是这样，以及是谁导致了它变成这样。

And the more that I look into it, the more that I find there are people operating unethically, and their unethical behavior affects every single American. If we only focus on the numbers, it's like covering the results of an election and not looking at the politicians. To know why the system is the way it is, you have to understand the people making decisions behind it. At The New York Times, we don't ever tell a story at just the top level. We're always looking a little bit deeper to help readers better understand not just what something is, but why it is, and also who's causing it to be that way.

你可以访问 nytimes.com/subscribe 订阅《纽约时报》。

You can subscribe to the New York Times at nytimes.com slash subscribe.

那么，克里斯，一旦美国国际开发署署长、特朗普任命的杰森·格雷说，你不能冻结每个员工的电脑系统、电话系统。在这条走向美国国际开发署终结的道路上，接下来会发生什么？

So, Chris, once Jason Gray, the head of USAID, the Trump appointed head of USAID, says you can't freeze every employee out of their computer system, their phone system. What comes next on this journey towards the end of USAID?

很多事情发生得非常快。其中之一是，第二天早上，杰森·格雷就被免去了美国国际开发署署长的职务。而这仅仅是个开始。我们现在进入周末，这仅仅是第二个周末。

A lot of things happen really quickly. One of them is, as of the next morning, Jason Gray has been removed from his post as head of USAID. And that's really just the beginning. We're now into the weekend. This is just the second weekend.

我必须强调，我们上任还不到两周。

I cannot stress enough. We are less than two weeks in.

好吧。

Alright.

就在这时，DOGE的成员开始介入，非常激进地翻查文件，关闭社交媒体，关停美国国际开发署的网站。有人向我描述说，这就像是美国国际开发署的面孔被抹去了。所以在这个周末，你可以看出美国国际开发署真的陷入了困境。同时，数千名员工开始无法访问他们的电子邮件账户和计算机系统。所以，在幕后，该机构正在被逐步拆解。

And this is when members of DOGE begin to go in and really aggressively begin rooting through the files, turning off social media, shutting down the website of USAID. Someone described it to me as akin to the face of USAID being erased. So over this weekend, you can tell that USAID is in real trouble. At the same time, thousands of staff members begin losing access to their email accounts and computer systems. So in the background, the agency is starting to be dismantled.

但随后事情转到了台前。这是周日下午，新政府上任大约十三天。公开爆发的是埃隆·马斯克的一条推文。他写道，美国国际开发署是一个犯罪组织。

But then it moves to the foregrounds. This is Sunday afternoon. We're about thirteen days into the new administration. What breaks out into the public is a tweet from Elon Musk. And he writes, USAID is a criminal organization.

是时候让它灭亡了。

Time for it to die.

这句话没什么需要解析的。这就是埃隆·马斯克对这个机构下达的一种死刑判决。

Not a lot of parsing to do of that language. This is Elon Musk issuing a kind of death sentence for this agency.

是的。事后看来，你知道，那意味着什么已经很清楚了。但再次提醒，当时这也是新情况。人们并不真正了解狗狗币有多大影响力，也不了解埃隆·马斯克有多大权力。对吧？

Yeah. And in hindsight, you know, it's clear what that meant. But again, remember at the time, this is also new. People don't really know how much power Doge has, and they don't know how much power Elon Musk has. Right?

理论上，如果遵循法律，埃隆·马斯克并非政府雇员，当然无权单方面终止一个国会授权的机构。所以这条推文标志着一个有趣的转变：从一个这类规则还起作用的时代，转向一个'哦，也许埃隆·马斯克和狗狗币就能直接终结美国国际开发署'的时代。

In theory, if one is to stick to the law, Elon Musk, who's not really a government employee, certainly doesn't have the authority to unilaterally end a congressionally mandated agency. So this this tweet marks a funny transition from a world where those kinds of rules still matter to a world where, oh, maybe Elon Musk and Doge can just end USAID.

没错。

Right.

而第二天，你就可以毫无疑问地确信，美国国际开发署撑不下去了。

And the next day is when you can really tell beyond a shadow of doubt, USAID is not gonna survive.

因为。

Because.

因为那天一大早，也就是周一，政府上任两周时，埃隆·马斯克发布了一条更激进的推文。内容是：'我们周末都在把美国国际开发署塞进碎木机里。本可以去参加些很棒的派对，却干了这事。'此后，在华盛顿特区总部工作的员工被告知留在家中。当天晚些时候，国务院向国会发送了一封信，表示他们将搬迁、重组或以其他方式逐步关闭美国国际开发署。

Because early on that day, that Monday, two weeks in the administration, is an even more aggressive tweet from Elon Musk. And it reads, we spent the weekend feeding USAID into the wood chipper. Could gone to some great parties did that instead. From there, staff who worked in the Washington DC headquarters were told to stay home. Later that day, the state department sent congress a letter saying they would move, reorganize, or otherwise wind down USAID.

信中甚至说，引述原话：'该机构的剩余部分可能会被废除。'

It even said, quote, the remainder of the agency may be abolished.

克里斯，我想根据你的调查确认一下我对事件经过的理解。我们收到了这份相当令人困惑的行政命令，美国国际开发署的一批人完全按照字面意思解读它。这让像皮特·摩洛哥这样的人确信整个机构内部存在普遍的不服从现象。多吉上任后，开始惩罚那些所谓不服从的人。大约一周之内，多吉就关闭了整个机构。

Chris, I just wanna make sure I understand the sequence of what happened here based on your investigation. We get this pretty confusing executive order, and a bunch of people at USAID who interpret it exactly as it's written. And that leaves folks like Pete Morocco convinced that there's rampant insubordination going on across the agency. Doge comes in, starts punishing people for being insubordinate. And within a week or so, Doge is shutting the whole place down.

大致是这样吗？

Is that more or less right?

完全正确。

That is correct.

从你的报道中可以看出，虽然特朗普政府从一开始看待美国国际开发署的方式可能背后有一种潜在的意识形态，即美国优先与对外援助并不那么兼容，因此该机构始终会受到本届政府的怀疑。但感觉该机构如此迅速瓦解，更多是因为少数人对员工围绕规则和流程进行来回讨论、推拉这种非常正常的流程感到愤怒，而反应却极其激烈。你知道，这被视为不服从，是抵抗。

And what it feels like is revealed in your reporting is that while an underlying ideology might be behind the way the Trump administration sees USAID from the beginning, right, which is America first and foreign aid are not so compatible. So USAID was always going to be suspect to this administration. It feels like the speed with which the agency just evaporates has a lot more to do with a few individuals becoming furious at what feels like a very normal process of employees engaging in a back and forth, push and pull around rules and process, and the reaction being nuclear. You know, this is disobedience. This is resistance.

因此我们要摧毁你们的机构。考虑到你实地了解到的事实，这一切感觉非常不成比例。

We are going to destroy your agency as a result of it. And that all feels very outsized, given the facts that you found on the ground.

完全正确。我认为你点出了一个非常重要的观点，也许这两件事并非完全分开的，对吧？也许这里的政府风格和实质内容会相互影响。

That's exactly right. I think you're you're landing on a really important point, which is maybe those two things aren't totally separate. Right? Maybe the style and substance of government here affect each other. Right?

反映意识形态的政策决策会受到政府风格的影响甚至主导——那种好斗性、对职业公务员的敌意、对深层政府的怀疑，这种敌意和恶意最终会压倒或重定向政策目标。这两者非但没有保持分离，反而形成一种循环，开始相互强化，导致非常激进和快速的结果。在短短两周之初，这种结果可能很难预测，因为当时有两个易燃因素同时在相互作用。

The policy decisions that reflect the ideology get influenced and overtaken by sort of the style of government, the combativeness, the hostility towards career civil servants, the suspicion of the deep state, and that sort of hostility and animus comes to overtake or redirect the policy goals. And those two things, rather than remaining separate, become sort of a cycle, and they start reinforcing each other leading to really aggressive and fast outcomes that at the beginning of just this short two week period probably would have been pretty hard to predict because you had two combustible elements interacting at the same time.

没错。但从中得出的一个明确教训——我知道这很复杂——是机构内部人员对政府要求的抵制越强烈，带来的痛苦、创伤和掏空后果就越严重。

Right. But a clear lesson to have emerged from this, and I know this is complicated, is that the greater the resistance from people inside of it to what people from the administration wanted, the greater the pain, the trauma, and the gutting resulted.

我认为这确实描述了美国国际开发署（USAID）发生的情况。事实上，我认为这正是其他人从USAID和这段早期经历中吸取的教训：不反抗更容易，屈服更简单。我们在一些律师事务所、一些大学的行为中看到了这一点。不过，我不确定这是否是一个普遍概念。

I think that definitely describes what happened at USAID. And I think that is, in fact, the lesson that others took away from from AID and from this early period that it's easier not to fight. It's easier just to give in. And we see that in the behavior of some law firms, of some universities. I don't know if that is, though, a general concept.

另一个教训可能是USAID的反抗方式不对。他们认为只要诉诸法律条文和公认的人力资源实践，就能阻止这届政府。他们可能低估了官员在被拒绝要求时会感到个人懊恼的程度。所以在我看来，USAID的教训是：特朗普政府为试图关闭一个机构所采取的措施，以及他们针对所认为的不服从行为所做出的回应，都是出乎意料的，可能显得非常极端，而USAID没有准备好

Another lesson might just be that USAID fought back in the wrong way. They they thought that just by appealing to the letter of the law and to accepted HR practices, they would be able to stop this administration. They probably underestimated the degree to which officials would feel sort of personally chagrined when they said no to their demands. So the lesson of USAID to my mind is the the steps the Trump administration will take to try to shut down an agency, the steps they'll take in response to what they perceive as insubordination, they're unexpected, and they can seem really extreme, and USAID wasn't ready for

应对。嗯。

it. Mhmm.

但当你将这个教训应用到政府停摆时，我想知道我们是否看到：这不是一部传奇，不是一场按常理展开的战斗。这不是一个遵循特定战略的政府，而是在反应，在寻找突破口，积极推动这些突破口，并且他们从USAID吸取了一个不同但可能更重要的教训。那就是：他们可以逃脱这类行为的惩罚。后果并不总是会显现。

But as you apply that lesson to the shutdown, I wonder if what we see is this is not a saga, this is not a battle that unfolds along lines that make any sense. This is not an administration that's following a particular strategy, but instead they're reacting, they're looking for openings, they're aggressively pushing those openings, and they've learned a different, but maybe more important lesson from USAID. And that lesson is they can get away with things like this. The consequences don't always materialize.

换句话说，如果特朗普政府决定授权在它不喜欢或想大幅削减的机构内实施停摆，那么所有这些给特朗普政府的教训就是他们大概可以为所欲为。这在停摆之前就是如此，现在政府停摆可能更是如此，因为它集中了总统对资金的权力。一旦他们决定进入一个机构，任何决定，正如我们讨论过的，任何抵抗都可能被用来非常不可预测地将看似小事变成大事，并以此作为改造甚至终结一个机构的理由。确实。停摆引发的一个意想不到的讨论甚至是特朗普政府也需要应对：政府重要吗？

In other words, if the Trump administration decides that the shutdown is licensed to go into an agency it doesn't like or wants to severely reduce, what the lesson of this all is for the Trump administration is they can probably do what they want. And that was true before the shutdown, perhaps is even truer now that the government is in shutdown because it's concentrated the president's authority over funding. And once they make a decision to go into an agency, any decision, as we've talked about, any resistance could then be used to very unpredictably take something that seems small and turn it into something very big and use it as a rationale to transform, maybe even end, an agency. Exactly. One of the unexpected conversations that's emerged from the shutdown is even the Trump administration needing to grapple with, is the government important?

而USAID的现实是，由于它发生得很早，我们现在有最长的时间来思考它消失带来的影响。我认为，如果我们不花点时间讨论USAID如今不复存在对世界意味着什么，那将是一种失职。

And the reality of the USAID is that since it happened so early, we now have had the longest time to think about the repercussions of it going away. And I think we'd be remiss if we didn't, for a moment, talk about what it has meant to the world that USAID is now gone.

是的。现实中的情况就是人们无法获得艾滋病药物，母亲们得不到救命的医疗护理，饥饿的儿童拿不到紧急营养包，曾经获得政治援助以维持民主的国家失去了这种帮助。过去用于饮用水、污水处理、电力和学校建设的基础设施项目停滞不前。这看起来像是全球范围内的倒退，而且这种情况已经在发生。

Yeah. This it what it looks like in real life is people not getting HIV medication, mothers not getting life saving care, starving children not getting emergency nutrition packets, Countries that used to get political assistance to remain democracies not getting that help. Infrastructure that used to get built for drinking water and sewage and electricity and schools not being built. It looks like the opposite of progress all over the world, and it's it's already happening.

没错。这对美国国际开发署曾开展工作的国家、对从事这项工作的人们无疑至关重要。外交政策专家会告诉你，长期以来，这对美国在全球施展软实力和影响力意义重大。但与此同时，如果你走上美国街头询问人们是否怀念美国国际开发署及其工作，如果人们诚实回答，我不确定答案会是‘我们想念美国国际开发署’。我认为答案很可能是‘美国国际开发署又是什么来着？’

Right. And that is no doubt of enormous importance to the countries where USAID was doing that work, to the people doing that work. Foreign policy experts would tell you that over time, this meant a lot to America's ability to exercise soft power and influence around the world. But at the same time, if you go walk the streets of The United States and ask people, do they miss USAID and the work that it does, and people are being honest, I'm not sure the answer is going to be we miss USAID. I think the answer is probably what was USAID again?

这可能是最引人深思的教训。它展现了特朗普的天才之处——或许并非计划的一部分，或许是出于情绪化的怨恨，但最终他认识到自己可以做几乎任何总统都未做过的事：终结一个主要机构，并赌定这不会引起公众有实质性的反弹。到目前为止，他似乎赌赢了。嗯。看来这场赌博得到了回报，这就引出了此次关门事件中的问题：既然在美国国际开发署行之有效，也许他会在其他机构尝试同样手段。

And that might be the most striking lesson of all. It showed the genius of Trump to recognize, maybe not part of a plan, maybe out of emotional spite, but ultimately to recognize that he could do what almost no president has done and end a major agency and gamble that it wouldn't cost him any meaningful blowback from the public. And as of now, it looks like he was right. Mhmm. Looks like that gamble paid off, which raises the question in this shutdown, well, if it worked at USAID, maybe he'll try it at other agencies.

也许当他威胁要关闭所谓的‘民主党机构’时，他真会这么做，而且可能再次得逞，就像在美国国际开发署那样。

Maybe when he threatens to close, quote, Democrat agencies, maybe he'll do it, and maybe it'll work out for him again, just like it did at USAID.

好的，克里斯，非常感谢。我们很感激。

Well, Chris, thank you very much. We appreciate it.

很高兴和你一起。

Great to be with you.

我们马上回来。以下是今日其他需知内容。周一，北卡罗来纳州的共和党州议员表示，他们很快将重新绘制该州的国会选区地图，以确保在明年中期选举前为美国众议院再争取一个共和党席位。此举将使北卡罗来纳成为最新一个通过不公正划分选区而非公平竞争来实现特朗普总统保持共和党控制众议院目标的州。今年夏天，德克萨斯州的共和党议员重划了该州的选举地图，新增了五个有利于共和党的众议院席位，而密苏里州的共和党则通过重划地图增加了一个共和党席位。今日节目由迈克尔·西蒙·约翰逊、玛丽·威尔逊、香农·林恩、戴安娜·温恩和克莱尔·坦内斯凯特制作，尼娜·费尔德曼协助。

We'll be right back. Here's what else you need to know today. On Monday, Republican state lawmakers in North Carolina said that they would soon begin to redraw the state's congressional maps to assure another Republican seat in the US House of Representatives before next year's midterm elections. The effort would make North Carolina the latest state to fulfill President Trump's goal of trying to retain Republican control of the House by gerrymandering congressional districts rather than winning competitive This summer, Republican lawmakers in Texas redrew their state's election maps to create five new Republican friendly House seats, while Republicans in Missouri redrew its maps to create one more Republican seat. Today's episode was produced by Michael Simon Johnson, Mary Wilson, Shannon Lynn, Diana Wynn, and Claire Tennesketter, with help from Nina Feldman.

本期节目由MJ·戴维斯·林恩、莉兹·O·巴伦和迈克尔·伯努瓦编辑，配乐由玛丽昂·洛萨诺、艾丽西亚·巴图布、丹·鲍威尔和帕特·麦库斯克制作，由艾丽莎·莫克斯利负责技术工程。《The Daily》今日播报到此结束。

It was edited by MJ Davis Lynn, Liz O. Balen, and Michael Benoit. Contains music by Marion Lozano, Alicia Baetub, Dan Powell, and Pat McCusker. And was engineered by Alyssa Moxley. That's it for The Daily.

我是迈克尔·洛瓦托。明天见。

I'm Michael Lovato. See you tomorrow.