《谜题烟火秀：纽约时报游戏的诞生》

迪帕克·乔普拉关于我们如何不仅活得更久、而且更幸福有什么见解？西西里岛的姑侄二人又能互相传授哪些关于自我关爱与美好生活的经验。大家好，我是伊莎贝拉·鲁索里尼。在欧莱雅集团推出的《这不是美容》播客最新一集中，我们将深入探讨美容、长寿与健康之间的关联。

What does Deepak Chopra say about how we can live not just longer, but happier? And what can an aunt and her niece in Sicily teach one another about self care and a life well lived. Hi. I'm Isabella Russolini. And in the latest episode of This Is Not a Beauty podcast from L'Oreal Group, we dig into the relationship between beauty, longevity, and health.

立即在您喜爱的播客平台收听。

Listen now on your favorite podcast platform.

我是瑞秋·艾布拉姆斯，欢迎收听《每日新闻》首期订阅用户专属节目。我们决定不定期制作这类内容，部分原因是有些有趣好玩的事情我们没在常规节目中呈现——至少对我们来说很有趣，但希望对于额外订阅支持我们工作的听众朋友们也同样如此。首期节目中，我们征集了大家关于《纽约时报》内容制作流程的疑问，结果发现很多人特别关注一个主题：游戏。

I'm Rachel Abrams, and welcome to our first subscriber only episode of The Daily. We are gonna be making these from time to time in part because there are just things we don't do on the show that could be interesting and fun. At least fun for us, but hopefully also fun for you, our listeners, who go the extra step of subscribing and supporting our work. So for our first episode, we asked all of you for questions about how we make things at the times. And we heard from a lot of people about one topic in particular, games.

填字游戏、Wordle、Connections、Spelling Bee。大家提出了大量问题，为此我们集结了《纽约时报》游戏部门的全明星编辑与设计师团队来揭秘他们的工作。我们把他们聚在会议室进行电话访谈，既转达了你们的疑问，也提出了我们自己的问题。

Crossword, Wordle, Connections, Spelling Bee. You all had a lot of questions, so we assembled an all star team of editors and game makers from the New York Times game department to tell us how they work. We got them into a room on a call. We asked them your questions. We asked them some of our questions.

我绝对替我爸问了至少一个问题，以下是这次对话内容。我是瑞秋·艾布拉姆斯，这不是《每日新闻》。好的，今天能聊《纽约时报》游戏我实在太兴奋了，这是公司里我最爱的部门之一。

I definitely asked them at least one question from my dad, and here's that conversation. I'm Rachel Abrams, and this isn't The Daily. Okay. I am so excited that we are gonna get to talk about New York Times games today. It's one of my favorite parts of this company.

现场有三位《纽约时报》游戏编辑。各位先简单自我介绍下？说说名字和负责的游戏项目。温娜，从你开始吧。

I am here with three New York Times games editors. Guys, you wanna introduce yourselves really quickly? Tell us your name and what game or games you work on. We'll start with you, Winna.

好的。我是温娜·卢，游戏团队的谜题编辑，负责每日Connections谜题创作并参与填字游戏的编辑工作。

Yeah. Hi. My name is Winna Lu. I am a puzzle editor on the games team, and I write the daily connections puzzle and also edit the crossword.

我是乔尔·法利亚诺。我为《纽约时报》设计了迷你填字游戏，并在这里参与许多其他游戏项目。

I'm Joel Fagliano. I created the mini crossword for The New York Times and work on many other games here.

我是山姆·齐尔斯基，《纽约时报》的数字谜题编辑。大多数人通过我编辑的每日数字拼字游戏'Spelling Bee'和'Letterboxed'认识我。不过我现在仍会协助填字游戏的工作——这正是我职业生涯的起点。

I'm Sam Zierski, digital puzzles editor for The Times. Most of you all know me from editing the daily digital spelling bee as well as letterboxed. But I also still lend a helping hand with the crossword, which is how I got my start.

我觉得人们对《纽约时报》的游戏有着强烈的情感联结。分享我的故事：疫情期间，我和住在加利福尼亚的父亲每天都会通过电话一起玩填字游戏。我们各自拿着手机同步解题。我父亲甚至能在十二分钟内独立完成周六难度的填字游戏——绝非玩笑，绝不作弊。

So I feel like people have really strong relationships and associations with New York Times games. I will share my own, which is during the pandemic, my dad and I my dad lives in California. We played the crossword every single day together over the phone. So we each have our phones out and would be solving it together. My dad also can solve a Saturday crossword, I'm not even kidding, without cheating in twelve minutes.

佩服。神速，真是神速。

Respect. Speedy, Speedy.

没错。我的第一个问题是：你们会作弊吗？我有个...

Yeah. My very first question is, do you ever cheat? I have a

关于作弊与不作弊的故事。

story about cheating versus not cheating.

太好了。我们就从这里开始吧。

Excellent. Let's start there.

我等不及要听这个了。

I can't wait to hear this.

所以当我开始在报纸上解《纽约时报》的填字游戏时，你知道，你可以把它折起来，变成一个小巧的纸包。

So when I started solving the New York Times crossword in the paper, you know, you get to fold it up, and it's this nice little packet.

用手写。你是用手开始解的

By hand. You started solving it by

对。是的。

hand. Yeah. Yeah.

好吧。每次我不知道答案时——这种情况占大多数——我就留空，而且从不看第二天的答案。就像某种奇怪的自我惩罚，觉得我没努力得出答案，所以不配知道。结果就是，那些词我一个都没学会。嗯。

Okay. Every time I didn't know an answer, which was most of the time, I left it blank, and I never looked up the answer from the next day. It was like some sort of, like, weird punishment for myself to be like, I didn't earn the answer, so I didn't get it. And as a result, I never learned any of those words. Mhmm.

所以我其实没有进步，总是重复犯同样的错误。所以现在我建议，作弊其实很棒，或者直接看答案

And so I didn't really get better, and I kept on making the same mistakes over and over again. And so now I recommend that, like, cheating is great or looking at the answers

就是接受。作弊很棒。

is take. Cheating is great.

引用Winaloo的话，作弊真棒。没错。让我们把这话公开说出来

Quote Winaloo, cheating is great. Yeah. Let's get that out there in the

实时直播。好吧。我们就此结束订阅内容吧。我想我们已经得到了

real time. Okay. We'll just end we'll end the subscriber content now. I think we got what

所需素材。Win，这太有趣了。我有个非常相似的经历，那是我得到的第一本解谜书，准确说是我解开的第一个谜题，是在七年级和妈妈度假时，她给我买了一本《纽约时报》填字游戏书。都是周一难度的题目，我兴奋极了，心想：来吧。

we need. Win, it's so funny. I have a very similar story to that, which is the very first puzzle book I ever got really, first puzzle I ever solved was like a vacation I was taking with my mom in seventh grade, she got me a New York Times crossword book. And it was like Monday puzzles, and I was so excited. And I was like, here we go.

结果第一个谜题我只答对两处。我安慰自己：好吧，可能这题比较难。翻到下一页又只答对一处，彻底被击败了。

And I got two answers on the first puzzle. And I was like, okay. Maybe this one was like a hard one. And I like flipped it and I got like one answer on the next one. And I was just defeated.

我真的放下了书，之后两年都没碰《纽约时报》的谜题，后来才重新接触。真希望当时能问问别人，比如'猫王埃尔维斯中间名是什么'之类的冷知识。

I literally put it down and didn't look at New York Times puzzles for like two years and kinda like got back into it later. And I wish I had just asked somebody like, oh, so what is Elvis Presley's middle name or whatever the the crazy trivia was at the time.

A r o n（亚伦）。

A r o n.

对。

Yeah.

亚伦，你每天从做《纽约时报》填字游戏中学到的东西，以及你在创作过程中吸收的知识

Aaron, the things you learn from doing the New York Times crossword every day and the things you absorb when you're making

你想说的是那些学到的无用知识吧。是的。不过，我认为关键在于，人们通常把解谜视为孤独的行为，但实际上当你让它变成集体活动和学习体验时，效果会好得多。

The useless knowledge you learn is really what you're you're trying to say. Yeah. But, yeah, I mean, I think it's the the lesson from that is that people think of puzzle solving as a solitary thing, and it's really much better when you kinda, like, welcome more people in when you're you're able to make it a communal thing and a learning thing.

山姆，你呢？

Sam, what about you?

对。我正要引用伟大的《纽约时报》填字游戏编辑威尔·肖茨的话——他本人又是从伟大的威尔·王那里学来的——现在我是第三代传话人：这是你的谜题，你可以用任何喜欢的方式解决。我个人认为，除非你自己觉得是作弊，否则根本不存在作弊这回事。

Yeah. I I was just gonna say, like, I guess I'm taking this from the great New York Times crossword editor, Will Shortz, who himself took this from the great Will Wang. Now I'm the third generation to say, it is your puzzle. You get to solve it however you like. And I will personally say, I really just don't believe there's anything such as cheating unless it is cheating to you.

填字游戏的魅力在于你能学到新知识，无论你选择用铅笔还是钢笔在纸上解题，是否使用自动检查功能辅助，或是直接跳过某些难题去谷歌搜索那些原本不知道的交叉线索。重要的是拥有个性化的、令人满足的解谜体验。

I think crosswords are so cool because you get to learn these new things, whether you decide to solve in pencil or pen on paper, whether you use auto check to help you out, whether you just skip and Google things to help with a tough crossing that you wouldn't have known otherwise. I think it's just cool to be able to have your own individualized satisfying puzzle solving experience.

话说回来，谷歌搜索Wordle答案就是作弊。我必须说清楚。如果你查Wordle答案...对，就是这样。

All that being said, googling the Wordle is cheating. I just wanna make it clear. You Google the Wordle. Yeah. Okay.

没错。就是这样

Yeah. That is

一个生死攸关的局面。你们三个人都不会沉下去。

a death situation. None of the three of you will sink.

是啊。

Yeah.

这是你的谜题。按你喜欢的方式解决它。

It's your puzzle. Solve it however you would like.

好的。那么，一个人是如何最终成为《纽约时报》游戏版块的编辑的？

Okay. So how how does one end up working as an editor for the New York Times game section?

我是说，我可以先开始。我、我、我是我们三个人中最早加入的。所以，我、温娜和山姆最初都是为《纽约时报》制作填字游戏。《纽约时报》谜题团队做的一件非常酷的事情就是接受来自全国各地的填字游戏投稿。任何人都可以提交一个谜题，然后会收到编辑的反馈。

I mean, I can start. I I I joined the earliest of of the three of us here. So myself, Winna, and Sam all got our start making crossword puzzles for the New York Times. So one of the really cool things the New York Times puzzle team does is accept crossword submissions from around the country. Anybody can send a puzzle in, and you hear back from the editors with feedback.

所以我们所有人都接触了填字游戏，并意识到，你知道，肯定有人在制作这些，于是开始提交我们的谜题。那就是我在高中时做的事。

So all of us got into crosswords and realized, you know, somebody must be making these, started sending in our puzzles. So that that was me in high school.

你提交了一个谜题是因为你想让《纽约时报》发表它吗？

You sent in a puzzle because you wanted the New York Times to publish it?

发表它。是的。我高中时就有这种狂妄的想法，觉得大人会发表我的作品。我父亲是《纽约时报》每日填字游戏的常客，他开始给我复印那些谜题。

To publish it. Yeah. I had that hubris as a as a high schooler. The adult will publish my stuff. I mean, my dad was a daily New York Times crossword solver, and he started photocopying the puzzle for me.

我当时就想，好吧，总有人在制作这些谜题，我也试试看。最初我是为我父亲制作的。我把它们寄给《纽约时报》，收到了威尔·肖茨的回邮，他说，嗯，

And I just thought, okay. Somebody's making these. I'll I'll try. I made them for my dad first. I sent them into the New York Times and got an email back from Will Short saying, yeah.

你知道，虽然整体不算很好，但这部分不错，这部分也很有趣。经过多次尝试后，终于被发表了，所以接下来的那个夏天

You know, it's not very good, but this part was good and this part was interesting. And after a number of attempts was finally published, so that following summer

等等，你第一次设计填字游戏时多大？

Wait. How old were you when you got a crossword?

我17岁。

I was 17.

哦，哇。

Oh, wow.

然后到了第二年夏天，我大学一年级时，我没有找到暑期工作。当时相当焦虑，一直在想我能做什么？我能做什么？于是我就直接给威尔·肖茨发了封邮件，问他是否需要实习生。

And then that following summer, when I was a freshman in college, I I didn't have a job for the summer. I was pretty panicked. I was thinking like, what could I do? What could I do? And I just sort of cold emailed Will Shortz and was like, do you have an intern?

这是你会考虑的事情吗？他确实这么做了。然后那个人退出了。几周后他给我发邮件，问你还失业吗？我确实还失业着。

Is that a thing you'd be willing to entertain? He actually did. And then that person dropped out. He emailed me a couple weeks later, do you still not have a job? I still don't have a job.

我想剩下的就是历史了。那是2011年，然后我在2014年正式加入。这是运气。很大一部分是运气。很大一部分是你自己创造的运气。

And I guess the rest is sort of history. That was 2011, and then I officially joined in 2014. It's luck. A big part of it is luck. A big part of it is you kinda making your own luck.

但我不想代表我们发言，不过我们中没人小时候梦想成为谜题编辑。这不是你真正渴望的职业，但机缘巧合让它成了我们的事业。

But I don't think I I I I don't wanna speak for us, but none of us thought we would be puzzle editors growing up. It's not really a real thing that you aspire to be, but just by happenstance sort of sort of made it our careers.

我太喜欢这个了。威尔·肖茨居然给你回信了。我觉得新闻编辑部的人通常忙得不可开交，听到有人抽空回复一个想投稿谜题的高中生，这真是太迷人了。

I love that. I love that Will Shortz actually wrote back to you. I feel like people are in this newsroom are often so incredibly busy that, like, just hearing that somebody took the time to respond to a high schooler who wanted to submit a puzzle, that's like that's so deeply charming.

是的。直到今天我们仍努力传递这份善意。任何人给我们投稿谜题，我们的编辑都会回复并提供改进建议。

Yeah. And we try to pay it forward to this day. Anyone who sends in a puzzle to us, one of our editors writes them back with with feedback on how they can get better.

萨姆，你是怎么成为游戏版块的编辑的？

Sam, how did you end up becoming an editor at the game section?

其实我...乔尔能讲他父母的故事，至少他能旁观他们的工作，高中时偶然接触这个。我就是个超级书呆子。我的故事没那么酷，只是沉迷填空谜题——它们看起来像填字游戏，但没有提示，只按字母顺序和长度列出答案。有次我父亲为了让我对填字游戏感兴趣，给了我这本威尔·肖茨精选字谜书。那时我大概十二三岁，这彻底改变了我，因为它不只是...

So I also you know, Joel gets to tell the story of, like, his parents doing this, and, like, he at least got to look over their shoulder, and he just kinda happened to dabble in in high school. I was just a giant nerd. I don't really have like that cool of a story other than I was into fill it in puzzles, which look just like crosswords, but instead of clues, it gives you a list of answers alphabetized by length. And at some point along the line, I think it was my dad just in in trying to get me into crosswords, got me this book of Will Shortz's favorite cross That, like, I I must have been, like, 12, 13 years old. That was, like, a monumental change for me because it wasn't just, like, alright.

我明白了。就像，我其实并不了解那些我应该知道的琐碎知识，只是觉得这些填字游戏的网格看起来太酷了。这些主题如此有趣，你可以把多个字母写进同一个格子里，甚至能在顶部堆叠三个十五个字母的答案。

I get it. Like, I I don't know all this trivia that I'm supposed to know, and it's that these grids just looked so cool. These themes were so interesting. You could write multiple letters into a single square. You could stack three fifteen letter answers at the top.

可以说，我完全被谜题中的图案和技巧（如果愿意这么形容的话）迷住了。所以我对制作谜题这一面也同样感兴趣。当然，当时并不知道普通人也会为《纽约时报》制作谜题，但在初中和高中时我深陷这个神秘领域，发现确实存在一个蓬勃发展的谜题制作人群体——而我现在也成为了其中一员。17岁时，我的第一个谜题在《纽约时报》上发表，之后一切顺理成章，我就站在了这里。

Like, I was so into just the patterns and the pyrotechnics, if you will, of puzzles. So I was just as interested in the puzzle making side of it. Of course, not really knowing that normal humans just made puzzles for the times, but went down this deep, dark rabbit hole in middle school and high school, found out that there is, in fact, this burgeoning community of puzzle making people that I've now been welcomed to the ranks of. And, I also had my first Times Puzzle published when I was 17, and, one thing led to another, and here I am.

我想我要呼应乔尔开头提到的关于运气的话题。嗯。我觉得自己异常幸运。对我来说，填字游戏的旅程始于——我曾暗恋一个在棋店工作的人，总看见他在做《纽约时报》的填字游戏。于是我就想：我也要做《纽约时报》的填字游戏。

I think I'm going to echo what Joel said in the beginning about luck. Mhmm. I I feel like I have been extraordinarily lucky. And for me, my crossword journey was I I had a crush on someone who, worked at a chess shop, and I always saw him doing the New York Times crossroad. And so I was like, I also do the New York Times crossroad.

其实我并不会。但我总会...你知道的，经过时假装偶遇。在街区散步时就会说'嘿，你做今天的谜题了吗？天啊'，然后我们会一起研究一会儿谜题。

I didn't. And so I I would I would, you know, walk by. I would be walking by in the neighborhood and being like, oh, did you do today's puzzle? Oh my goodness. We would, you know, work on the puzzle together a little bit.

我们成了朋友，还一起参加了锦标赛合作解题，特别有趣。但后来我真正沉迷解题好几年，却又太害羞不敢参加填字游戏比赛。纽约每年有个本地赛事Lollapazula（非常棒），我每年都去，但总是害羞得不敢和人交谈，解完题就溜走。

And we became friends, and we actually went to a tournament together and co solved. Was very fun. But then I got really, really into solving puzzles for a number of years. And then I was too shy to go to the crossword tournaments. There's one local tournament in New York every year, Lollapazula, which is excellent.

直到2017年，我和妈妈参加了填字游戏主题游轮——因为我妈说'我爱游轮，你爱填字游戏，我们就该参加这个'。

I would go every year, but I would be too, like, shy to talk to anyone. I'd go solve the puzzles and, like, run away. And then in 2017, I went on a crossroad cruise with my mom because my mom was like, I love cruises. You love crossroads. We're doing this cruise.

正是在那艘2017年的填字游戏游轮上，我遇见了乔尔。

And that's where I met Joel. I met Joel on a crossroad cruise in 2017.

是的，我们需要暂停讨论'十字路口巡航'这个词，因为这个词并不常见。

Yeah. We need to pause on the crossroad cruise because that's that's a phrase the phrase that's not that common.

不过它有15个字母。

It's 15 letters, though.

我或许能猜出'十字路口巡航'是什么意思，但

I could maybe assume what a crossroad cruise is, but

我觉得就是你想的那样。对，实际上我们不能称之为巡航，因为它没有停靠点。你只是待在船上

I think it's what you're imagining. Yeah. Actually, we weren't allowed to call it a cruise because it didn't make any stops. You were just on a boat

那是一次横渡。

for It was a crossing.

持续了一周半。所以那是次横穿全国的旅程。

A week and a half. So it was a cross country.

那是《纽约时报》的《纽约时报之旅》栏目，对吧？就是那个老牌的旅行专栏。他们在冬天重走泰坦尼克号航线。所以是冬季的北大西洋航行，没有停靠点，我们在船上做了很多填字游戏。

It was the New York Times New York Times, like, Journeys. Is that what it was? The old travel thing of the New York Times. They were doing the Titanic route in the winter. So it was the North Atlantic in the winter with no stops, and then we did a bunch of puzzles on it.

你基本上就是，像这样，一边解谜题一边横渡大洋。对，中途完全没靠岸。

You just basically, like, sailed across the ocean doing puzzles. Yeah. Not stopping to go on any land.

然后我们下船就直接飞回家了。

And then we we got off and then flew home.

等等，我爱死这个了。还有山姆，我注意到了——我完全没漏掉你脱口而出'填字游轮'正好15个字母。你是心算出来的吗？

Wait. I love this. Also, Sam, I I clocked. It did not it was not lost on me that you immediately said that crossword cruise had 15 letters. Did you just count that in your head,

就我们说话这会儿功夫？山姆确实能做到。

Like, as we were talking? Sam can do this.

不，我们今天——我们所有人都能做到。

No. I we we all can do this today.

我不行。

I can't.

我得掰手指头数。

I need to use my fingers.

等等。这是

Wait. Is this a

成为谜题编辑的先决条件吗？你必须能够，比如，在脑海中数字母，还是这是你入职后才掌握的技能？

prerequisite for being a puzzle editor? You have to be able to, like, count letters in your or is this just something that you come to the job?

山姆不太正常。

Sam is not normal.

我想说的是，我认为我们每个人都带着不同的独门技能来到这个领域。比如，如果温娜和乔尔都指出这一点，就像我一直反复提到的，我对谜题中的模式特别敏感。所以在我脑海里，你可以说一个短语。你可以说一个16个字母的短语。

This is how I will say, I think we we all come to the table with, like, different secret sauce skill sets. Like, I I guess if Winna and Joel are are pointing it out as it is, like, mine I've been talking again and again about being drawn to patterns with puzzles. So in my brain, you can say a phrase. You can say a phrase. That's 16 letters.

你就是，它就是一直这样，一直开启着，填字游戏大脑，14个字母。

You just like, it's it's just it's just always it's just always on, Crossword Brain, 14 letters.

你会

Do you

希望自己能关掉这种能力吗？

ever wish you could turn it off?

有时候确实如此。但有时它也会引发一些我后来为时代设计的谜题，因为，你知道，你会突然发现，哇，我从未注意到那个标志上的短语里藏着这个五个字母的单词。想想看。

Sometimes, yes. But sometimes it also leads to puzzles that I have since made for the times because, you know, you go, oh, wow. I never noticed that that phrase on a sign contains this hidden five letter word. Imagine that.

我们可能在开会时，突然冒出一个像谜题中单一答案的东西。比如，我正想着奥利奥饼干之类的，山姆就会说，你知道鲍勃·克拉恩在2005年他的第一个填字游戏中首次使用了那个短语。然后我们面面相觑，心想这人是谁？

We'll be in a meeting and there'll be live just like a single answer in a puzzle. Like, I'm trying to, you know, Oreo cookie or something. And Sam will go, you know, Bob Klahn debuted that phrase in 2005 in his first crossword. Both look at each other like who? Like we

谁？耶稣吗？

Who Jesus?

我们是那0.1%最了解《纽约时报》填字游戏的人，而山姆绝对是其中的佼佼者。他的记忆力简直惊人。

Are in the top 0.1% of people who know stuff about New York Times crosswords, and Sam is just at the at the top of the list. He's got a crazy memory.

这话从你嘴里说出来可真有意思——有次因为大雪导致地铁北线瘫痪，我们不得不拼车，你居然用Venmo向我收钱。转账说明还写着：有趣的是，如果把Metro North去掉字母h，就能重组出‘折磨她’。所以乔尔确实有些超能力

That's rich coming from the person who Venmo requested me once for for an Uber that we had to share because the Metro North was so messed up in the snow. And the Venmo caption was, funny how if you remove the h from Metro North, it anagrams to torment her. So Joel's got some Joel's got some superpowers

被抓现行了吧。

too. Busted.

这就是《纽约时报》谜题编辑的日常。好了，我想聊聊这些谜题实际是如何制作的。我们先从填字游戏开始吧。

Just another day in the life of a New York Times puzzle editor. Okay. I want to talk a little bit about how the puzzles are actually put together. So let's start with the crossword.

是的。我想我会接下这个。填字游戏是我们所有人都在做的产品。比如，如果你说的是Connections，那是温娜负责的，而拼字蜜蜂则是萨姆的。每位我们聘请的编辑都在做填字游戏。

Yeah. I guess I'll take this. So the crossword is the product that we all work on. Like, if you take connections, that's Winna's and Spelling Bee, that's Sam's. Everybody, every editor we've hired all work on the crossword.

那么这意味着什么？基本上，我们每周会收到来自全国各地甚至全球的超过150份填字游戏投稿，现在有些国家首次有人投稿，这非常令人兴奋。但大体上，我们收到这些谜题后，就开始筛选流程。然后编辑们会审阅并将它们分类成不同的堆，我暂且这么称呼。

And and so what does that mean? So basically, we get upwards of 150 crosswords sent a week to us from people around the country, and actually the world now. There are people sending crosswords from countries we've never received crosswords from, which is really exciting. But basically, we get all these puzzles, and that's kind of the start of the funnel. Then our editors review and sort them into different piles, I'll call them.

有些谜题直接被淘汰，我们会给予一些反馈，比如感谢投稿，但某些部分是你自创的答案，或者字数过多，或者主题不够吸引人。还有些谜题会进入‘待定区’。最终被采纳的谜题会经过编辑，主要是修改提示语。我们很少改动谜题中的单词，偶尔才会调整。

So there's puzzles that are just nose, and we send some feedback, say thank you for sending this, but such and such part of the you made up answers here, or it's too many words, or the theme wasn't interesting to us. And then puzzles also make it into what we call the maybes. And then when we finally do take a puzzle, it's edited. And the way a crossword is edited is just mainly just changing the clues. We rarely change much about the words in the puzzle, maybe occasionally.

嗯。但主要是修改提示语。首先确保事实准确性，其次，熟悉《纽约时报》填字游戏的玩家知道，谜题是按难度排序的。周一的谜题最简单，周六的最难，周日的则篇幅较大，难度中等。所以编辑时，很多工作是根据难度调整提示语。

Mhmm. But it's mainly just changing the clues. And they're changed for for factual accuracy first of all, but then of course like those who know New York Times crosswords will know the puzzles are ordered by difficulty. So Monday's the easiest crossword, Saturday's the hardest, and Sunday's really big, and it's somewhere in in the medium difficulty range. And so when we're editing a puzzle, a lot of it is actually just changing it for difficulty.

就是确保周一的简单，周六的极其困难。

So it's changing it to make sure the Monday is easy and the Saturday is brutally hard.

等等。好吧。这其实是我们收到很多提问的一点——你们如何决定什么是简单问题？什么是周一级别的问题？周二的呢？

Wait. So okay. This is actually something we got a lot of questions about, which is like, how do you guys decide what is an easy question? What's what's a Monday question? What's a Tuesday question?

周三？你们什么时候会

Wednesday? When are you gonna

是的。我我我觉得，出乎意料的是，我们会收到投稿，而且通常能很清楚知道这个谜题会在周几发布。有时会有些模糊，周二还是周三。但比如周一的主题会非常直白。不，不会有什么奇怪的标题。

Yeah. I I I think that, surprisingly, we'll get a submission, and it will often be pretty clear what day of the week that puzzle will run on. Sometimes there's some ambiguity, Tuesday or Wednesday. But, like, a Monday theme will be really straightforward. No no, like, weird heading.

给我们

Give us

举个周一主题的例子。对。

an example of a Monday theme. Yeah.

我们最近发布的一个谜题包含红波尔多、贾斯汀·特鲁多、超级任天堂和曲奇面团。所有人都能猜出这个主题。就是面团面团面团面团。所以这种主题不需要有人在旁边解释，说它们共同点是...对吧？不需要额外解释。

A recent puzzle we ran had Red Bordeaux, Justin Trudeau, Super Nintendo, and Cookie Dough. Everybody can figure out that theme. It's dough dough dough dough dough. And so it's a sort of theme where you don't really need somebody standing beside you being like, so now what they have in common is like Right. You don't need that extra level Yeah.

周一主题就该这样一目了然。它应该跃然纸上。

Of headiness with the Monday theme. It should kind of come across the page.

对。你们怎么判断某个事物的冷门程度？对我来说，这才是让线索变难的原因。比如某部戏剧、书籍、演员或历史事件，你可能完全不了解。

Yeah. How do you guys make a determination about the obscurity of something? Like, that to me, that's what makes a clue hard. Right? It's like some play or book or actor or piece of, like, history that you would have no idea about.

你们是怎么确定的？

How do you guys determine that?

是的，我认为这相当主观。我不认为存在客观标准，但我觉得你可以大致感受到，比如，这是有意为之的吗？这是像是一个精选答案，你知道，被构造者特意挑选出来因为它有意义？还是说这是为了让其他词语能够搭配起来而存在的？

Yeah. I think it's pretty subjective. I don't think there's an objective standard, but I feel like you can sort of get a sense of, like, was this here intentionally? Was this like a featured answer, you know, that was featured by the constructor because it's meaningful? Or is it something that made other words work and fit together?

通常你都能分辨出哪种是哪种，我认为我们会考虑这一点。我很想听听你们的看法。

And you can usually kinda get a sense of which is which, and I think we, like, consider that we take that in consideration. I'd be interested in in what you guys think.

我认为随着时间的推移它已经改变了。比如，当只有威尔的时候，可能会觉得威尔·肖茨不知道那个，那就会被认为很冷门。当是威尔和我时，我们可能有自己的盲区。现在我们确实有一个团队，我认为这是拥有七位编辑共同审阅的好处之一。如果我们所有人都没听说过某件事，那可不是个好兆头。

I think it's changed over time. Like, I think when it was just Will, it was like, well, maybe Will Shortz doesn't know that, and that's considered obscure. When it was Will and I, we probably had our own blind spots. We do have a team now, and I think this is part of the helpful thing of having a team of seven editors who are looking at it. If all of us have not heard of something, it's a it's not a great sign.

嗯。但很多时候会有人为某件事担保。不，不。那确实是个大艺术家。

Mhmm. But then like a lot of times someone will vouch for something. No. No. That really is a big artist.

可能你们中有几个人没听说过，这就是我们常有的那种辩论。

Maybe a couple of you haven't heard of it, and that's the sort of debates we have.

关于这个团队，我真正喜欢的一点是我们确实努力将自己视为解谜者，但同时也在考虑所有其他解我们谜题的人。我们不希望传递出这样的氛围：你必须知道这个首都与那个你可能不知道的东西交叉，如果不知道，当然这个交叉路口就不适合你。下次你就会明白了。我们希望它是平易近人的，能吸引来自各行各业的人。

One of the things that I I I really like about this team is I think we're we're really trying to we think about ourselves as solvers, but we're thinking about all the other people that are solving our puzzles. And we don't want that to be our vibe to be like, you have to know this capital crossing crossed with this other thing you might not know. And if you didn't, of course, then the crossroads is not right for you. You'll figure it out next time. You want it to be accessible and really pull people from all walks of life.

有趣的是，你们的工作本质上是找出一个既根据当天情况足够有挑战性，又可解的谜题。就像，难到有挑战性，但又简单到可以完成。我好奇你们是否也是这样看待的。

It's interesting to think about the fact that your jobs are basically to figure out something that feels challenging enough for whatever day it is, but also solvable. Like, hard enough to be difficult, but easy enough to be achievable. And I wonder if that's kinda how you see it.

是的，我认为找到平衡非常重要。所以我们有时会这样做。我觉得之前提到的交叉点就是个例子。比如如果我们觉得某个冷门答案可能大家不熟悉，就会确保与之交叉的其他答案——嗯——

Yeah. I think finding the balance is really important. So we do that sometimes. I think it was alluded to with the crossing. So if there is maybe, like, a trivia answer that we think maybe people might not be familiar with, we'll try to make sure that all the answers crossing Mhmm.

都是可推导出来的。嗯。你总不希望解题者卡在一个他们不认识的字母上。嗯。

That answer are gettable. Mhmm. You know, you don't want the solver to be stuck on a letter that they that they don't know. Mhmm.

所以你的意思是，如果有个特别难的纵向词，就要让横向提示简单些？对，正是这样。

So you're talking about, like, if you have a really hard vertical word, you want the horizontal clues to be easier. Yes. Exactly.

明白了。好的。至于关联题，如果要设置一个特别烧脑的文字游戏类别，我就会避免在同一个谜题里再放冷知识类别——毕竟不能让解题者卡住。所以可以有些难题——

Got it. Okay. And and, like, for connections, if there's gonna be, like, a really tough, like, wordplay category, I'll try to not put, like, maybe a trivia category in that same puzzle because you just don't you don't want the solver to get stuck. So it's okay to have some hard stuff

嗯。

Mhmm.

但需要平衡才公平。

But it's good to balance it out. It should be fair.

嗯。

Mhmm.

对吧？理想情况下它应该是无解的。解谜者需要某种内部提示。

Right? It should ideally be unsolvable. The the solver should have some kind of in.

好的。那么填字游戏是由人们提交的。嗯。但比如拼字蜜蜂呢？你们是怎么设计每日拼字蜜蜂的？

So okay. So the crosswords are submitted by people. Mhmm. But what about spelling bee, for example? How do you create the spelling bee for the day?

对于首次收听的听众，拼字蜜蜂的规则是：七个不同字母排列成六边形，中心有一个字母。玩家通过字母重组来构词。关键规则有两条：必须使用中心字母，且所有字母可重复使用。嗯。

So for for for that for those tuning in for the first time, the way spelling bee works is there's seven different letters arranged in, like, a hexagonal shape. One of the letters is in the center. You are you make words by anagramming. The only twist or there are two twists is you must use the center letter, and you can use all of the letters as often as possible. Mhmm.

比如用字母a、c和i，你可以拼出'acai'（阿萨伊果），也能拼出'acacia'（金合欢）。所以我并不是靠在椅子上凭空想象——用七个字母能组成哪些词？我手头有个数据库，可以说这就是我的工具。

So with just the letters a, c, and I, you can make acai, and you can also make acacia. So I'm not kicking back in a chair and going, you know what words you can make with seven different letters? Let's try this and let's just brainstorm all the other words you can make with seven letters. I have a database at my disposal. I think I can say that.

理论上，七个字母及其子集能组合出无数可能。作为编辑——这也是我区分'编辑拼字蜜蜂'和'从头创作'的原因——我的职责是筛选优质谜题。你要为这个谜题感到兴奋。我已有预设的单词列表，包含这七个字母所有可能的答案组合。而我的工作就是进行颇具争议的抉择：决定当天谜题接受哪些词汇。所以，拼字蜜蜂是数据驱动的，但最终由人工精选——这可能是最贴切的描述。

Theoretically, there are so many different combinations of things that can be made with seven different letters and subsets of them. My role as editor, which is why I draw the line saying I edit Spelling View verse where I create it from scratch, is my my role is to pick out the good puzzles. You want to be excited by this puzzle. And then I will also I already have the pre populated, if you will, word list that is the theoretical every last answer that could possibly be made of those seven letters, And it's my job to go through the, the controversial job, of course, of deciding which words should be accepted in that puzzle for the day. So, it is data driven, but it is human curated is probably the best way I could put Spelling Bee.

明白了。那你们如何判定哪些词是可接受的？

Okay. How do you decide what words are acceptable?

哈，这个问题够你讨论三小时了吧？

Yes. Oh, you've got like three hours for this. Right?

对。对。对。三个小时。不行。

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Three hours. No.

我们要我们要

We're gonna we're

延长录音室的使用时间。

extending the studio time.

哦，我我看到乔尔和温娜已经在打瞌睡了。他们好像在说，他又来了。

Oh, I I can see Joel and Winna already nodding off. They're like, here he goes again.

不。我很好奇，因为我也有些小问题要和你讨论，所以继续吧。

No. I'm curious because I got some nits to pick with you too, so go ahead.

当然。就像每个人都会做的那样。

Of course. And as as everybody does.

正在磨我的刀。

Sharpening my knife.

我甚至会，比如，你知道，就当作一个小预告来说，作为一个解谜者，我有时也会挑剔自己作为编辑的工作。尽管讨论很多，但绝大多数情况其实非常简单。掉落。是的。呼叫。

I'll I'll even, like, you know, just to just to, you know, as a little teaser, I would say, I as a solver would even pick nits with myself as an editor sometimes. The vast majority, you know, in spite of how much is talked about, the vast majority is very easy. Fall. Yes. Call.

掉落。这些都是

Fall. These are all

没有争议的词汇。

Non controversial words.

我同意你的

I'm with you so

观点。那里和这里。是的。你到目前为止都跟得上我的思路。然后有些词，我不想冒犯谁，或者正好撞上某人的专业领域，我们姑且称它们为拼字游戏词汇。

far. There and here. Yeah. You're you're following me thus far. Then there are words I'm not you know, at the risk of one just totally airing or two at the risk of, like, sit being squarely in somebody's wheelhouse, there are words that, you know, we'll call them the scrabble words.

这些东西，甚至在某些词典里都找不到，只有未删节版的词典才有收录。比如这种只生长在世界某个特定国家的灌木属植物。

They are things that, like, are not even listed in some dictionaries. They're only found in unabridged things. It is this genus of shrub that only lives in this one country in

世界上。所以

the world. So

必须有个界限，因为你希望尽可能多地找到单词。你不想到不了天才级别只是因为那些所谓的'拼字游戏专用词'。对吧？这就是我常说的，修剪词表的初衷。然后说到乔尔，我会直接点名你。

there needs to be a line drawn somewhere because you wanna be able to find as many words as possible. You don't want the reason you didn't get to genius because they're all these quote unquote scrabble words. Right? So that's the philosophy around pruning the word list, as I like to say, to begin with. Then you get to Joel, I'll I'll I'll call you right out.

然后你会看到一个鸟的名字。

Then you get to the name of a bird.

哪个？

Which one?

乔尔是个鸟类爱好者。

Joel's a big bird guy.

你们漏掉了哪个？

Which one have that you left off?

乔尔、乔尔和乔尔的父亲。向乔尔的父亲致敬！我们这些鸟类爱好者。有些鸟名出现在拼字比赛里，有些则没有，这看起来非常随意。我并不是在嘲笑你们喜欢冷门鸟类。

Joel Joel and Joel's father. Shout out shout out shout out Joel's dad. Our our our big bird guys. So there are some birds that are in the spelling bee, and there are some birds that aren't, and it seems really, really arbitrary. And I'm not, like, laughing at you going, You'd love niche birds.

不。鸟名应该被纳入拼字比赛。明确地说，随着时间的推移，我的立场已经改变，允许越来越多的鸟名进入拼字比赛，因为每个人都有自己的专长领域。但对于你们鸟类爱好者来说，这可能并不显得特别。对吧？

No. Like, birds should be in the spelling bee. And to be clear, like, my stance on this has changed over time allowing more and more birds in the spelling bee because everybody has their own bits of, we'll call it a specialized thing. But hey, to you bird lovers out there, I it's probably not seemingly specialized to you. Right?

哪些鸟类入选了？

Which birds make the cut?

让我想想。乔尔，你想说一个没入选的吗？

Let's see. There are Joel, you wanna say one that doesn't?

没入选的是蛇鹈，这让我抓狂，因为你去佛罗里达就能看到蛇鹈到处都是。还有鼠兔也不在里面，我觉得鼠兔确实不该算吧，它更像是啮齿动物。

One that doesn't is Anhinga, which drives me crazy because you you just go to Florida. You see Anhingas everywhere. And then pica is not in there, which I don't think pica is in there, right, which is just like a rodent.

山姆，你的反驳意见呢？

Sam, your rebuttal?

不，其实我的反驳根本算不上反驳。作为编辑，我在自我探索过程中领悟到：语言的任意性令人着迷，某些词典收录的词在其他词典里却找不到。拼字游戏不过是另一种词汇集，包含某些词而排除其他，还要兼顾让广大解谜者觉得有趣易懂。这是个不断演进的探索过程。

No. So that so my rebuttal actually is literally is a nonrebuttal. I guess what what I myself have learned my own journey as editor is it's fascinating just how arbitrary language is, words that are accepted in some dictionaries but not accepted in other dictionaries. So Spelling Bee is just yet another lexicon that just has some things and doesn't have others, and then there's that extra layer of making it fun and accessible to such a widespread group of solvers out there. It's it's a journey, and it's ever evolving.

温诺，你誓死捍卫的鸟类或其他必须成为线索的东西是什么？在拼字游戏或任何其他游戏里？

Winnow, what is your hill to die on bird or other thing that you were like, this must be a clue? I in Spelling Bee? In any of the games.

哦，好吧。

Oh, okay.

我认为人脉关系很重要，我是说，比如，你最近在忙些什么？我知道有人一直在提醒我

I think connections is a good I mean, like, what things have you been like? I know people are telling me

不要

not to

忽视人脉关系，但你知道吗？我负责人脉这一块。

be missing connections, but you know what? I'm in charge of connections.

好的。我们可以暂时转到Loris的话题上。Loris出现在Wordle游戏里了。

Okay. We can talk about we can pivot to Loris for a second. Loris was in Wordle.

哦，是的。

Oh, Yes.

Loris是Wordle的答案词。我们进行了一场精彩的讨论，我当时极力支持Loris。还有谁也是？

Loris was the the Wordle word. We had a a great we had a great discussion. I was extremely pro Loris. Who else was?

我反对Loris，特此声明。

I was anti Loris, just for the record.

等等。Loris？我也是

Wait. Loris? I was also

l o r I s。

l o r I s.

等等。哦，Loris。我在想，Loris是个人名吗？Loris是个单词吗？抱歉。

Wait. Oh, Loris. I was like, is Loris a person? Is Loris a word? Sorry.

Loris是

Loris is

一个单词。

a word.

证明了我的观点

Making my point That

太疯狂了。

is wild.

也许它不该成为这个世界的样子。

That maybe it shouldn't be the world.

懒猴，它们很可爱。行动缓慢。

Slow, Loris. They're adorable. They're slow.

温娜像是把它放进一个迷你容器，再放进另一个迷你容器，然后表现得像是你见过的最狂热的懒猴粉丝。

Winna, like, put it in a mini, then put it in another mini, then was like she's just like the biggest Loras fan you'll meet.

我非常喜欢它们。

I like them a lot.

它是一种灵长类动物，夜行性的，我想是来自马达加斯加，眼睛特别大...看起来像什么来着？菲比精灵？对，有点像菲比精灵。

It's it's a primate with like a nocturnal primate, I think Madagascar, with like really big And it's very it looks like a what are they? Furby? Yeah. It kinda looks like a Furby.

澄清一下，对懒猴粉丝团说，别误会，我们了解懒猴的背景故事，不是那个Loris。

And to be clear, to the Loris hive out there, like, don't don't cat we we know Loris' lore it's not Loris.

不过还没联系上另一个懒猴粉丝团吧？这才是我真正想知道的。

Haven't got the other loris hive, though? Like, that's what I really wanna know.

赢家就是他们的冠军。

Winner is is their is their champion.

懒猴队。就像，赢家是他们的女王。

Team loris. Like like, the is Winner is their queen.

赢家是懒猴女王。

Winner the loris queen.

我的希望是，你知道，像你这样的人会去谷歌搜索懒猴，然后你会看到所有这些令人惊叹、可爱的懒猴照片，你会感到快乐。

My my hope is that, you know, someone like you will then Google loris, and you will be greeted with all these amazing, adorable pictures of the Loris, and you'll be happy.

好吧。但我觉得很多人会发推文说，这到底是个什么词？

Okay. But I feel like many, many people would tweet, what the heck is this word?

实际上发生了。我想确实发生过。我觉得你是对的。真希望我在做这个决定之前和你聊过。

Actually happened. I think that happened. I think you're right, actually. I wish I had spoken to you before I made this call.

我觉得在《纽约时报》当记者学到的一件事是，生活中的人，当他们对你可能与之无关的报道有意见时，他们会先告诉你。所以我想知道，你们生活中是否有人会因为不喜欢某个线索或谜题而向你们抱怨？你们又是如何回应的？

I feel like one thing you learn working at the New York Times as a journalist is that people in your life, when they have taken issue with a story that you probably had nothing to do with, they will let you know first. And so I wonder, do you guys have people in your lives who will complain to you when about a clue or a puzzle they didn't like? And and how do you respond?

我懂你。说到我爸现在，他完全没有上下文概念。连委婉的说法都没有。说清楚点，我爱我爸。

I've got you. My my dad at this point, he there's there's no context. There's no even gentle thing to be clear. I love my dad.

我们正处在

We're we're in a

一段很棒的关系中。但老爸他每天就给我发谷歌单词链接。

great relationship. But dad, he just sends me Google links to words every day.

等等，他是想让你参加拼写比赛还是

Like Wait. Does he want them in the spelling bee or the

参加拼写比赛。没错。到现在连个上下文都没有。我就想，拜托，又来这套。

them in the spelling bee. Yep. And at this point, like, there's no context. I'm like, come on, man. Like, not this again.

现在我都直接笑了，我们还会围绕这个展开愉快对话。这就是我身边亲近之人沉迷解谜的小趣事。

At this point, like, I just laugh, and we have good conversations around it. But that that's my that's my little anecdote of someone close to my life that solves puzzles.

我觉得《纽约时报》游戏受欢迎的一个好处就是全家人都玩。比如家庭度假时，早上的咖啡时间固定流程就是：玩拼字蜂巢、抱怨缺了哪些词、玩组词连线。我妈总跟我抱怨紫色分类，让我发信息给Winna（但我没发）。你知道吧，这种互动本身就很有趣，我觉得有时候乐趣就在这些——

I mean, one of the cool parts about New York Times games being popular is that everyone in my family plays it. So, like, when we go on family vacations, like, the kind of morning ritual around the coffee is do the spelling bee, complain about the words that aren't there, do the the connections. My mom complains about the purple category to me and tells me to text Winna and I don't. And like, you know, like there's just like it's it's fun. I think it's part of the I think it's part of the enjoyment sometimes is

那些投诉？

The complaints?

那些投诉。我得说，对别人来说是种乐趣。对我们编辑而言，一方面你会练就厚脸皮，但另一方面，你也希望这些反馈能帮你把工作做得更好。不过现实生活中你也会收到人们的反馈。

The complaints. Enjoyment for other people, I'll say. For us, I think as as editors, you develop a thick skin for one thing, but you also I mean, you want the feedback to help you become better at your job. But you you you get you get feedback from people in real life too.

温娜，你生活中有这样的人吗？

Winna, do you have anybody in your life?

所以我父母和他们不同，完全不玩这些游戏。他们用其他方式支持我。比如我爸会戴他的《连线》棒球帽，特别可爱。我妈给我做了个马克杯，上面写着'温娜与连线'。

So my parents, unlike theirs, do not play any of the games. They they show me their support in other ways. Like, my dad wears his Connections baseball cap, which is really cute. My mom made me this mug that says Winna and Connection on it.

非常

It's very

非常酷。但我爸会说，你表亲们抱怨这游戏太难了，他们都不玩。不过我也确实会听到抱怨，这很正常。挺好的，我能理解。

very cool. But my dad is like, your cousins say this game is too hard, and they don't play it. But I I do, you know, I do hear complaints, and, you know, it's it's okay. It's it's good. It's like, you know, I get it.

就像，我就爱对事情生气。所以我觉得这挺酷的，我的...

Like, I love being mad at stuff. And so, you know, I think it's just like cool that my

我们当中，有谁不曾抱怨过呢？

Who among us, you know, has not complained?

让我整理一下思路。我爸喜欢在拼字游戏拿到'蜂后'或'天才'等级时——抱歉——或者快速完成填字游戏时，给我发截图炫耀。你们会收到别人主动发来炫耀成绩的截图吗？

Well, let me let me wrap this around. My dad likes to send me screenshots when he gets, like, queen bee on the spelling bee or or genius. Sorry. When he gets genius level or when he completes a crossword quickly. Do you get unsolicited screenshots from people who wanna brag about their scores?

我超爱看！是我主动要求的。所以我觉得...不知道你们是不是也这样，但人们似乎默认所有人都会给我发成绩，反而不好意思发给我了。

I love it. I solicit it. You solicit it. So I I'm I'm like, I think people I don't know if if this this is true for for you you all, but, like, I think people assume that everyone sends me their scores. And so people are like, I don't wanna send you.

实际上真没几个人发。所以我总说：发给我吧！我喜欢看，真的喜欢

And and really, not many people do. So I I've been like, no. You can send me your scores. I like it. I like

明白了。所以你的意思是该把我的成绩发给你？这就是我的理解

seeing So what I'm hearing is I should send you my scores. That's what I'm taking for

这正是我现在要告诉你的。

what I'm telling you right now.

这次我来带头。我们...我们穿你想穿的就行。

I'm I'm about I'm about to lead us this time. Be we we wear what you wish.

是的。我最后还有一个问题要问大家。顺便说一句，等这期节目播出后，你们会收到一大堆未经请求的评分。耶。

Yeah. I have one last question for all of you guys. And by the way, when you're about to get so many unsolicited scores right now after this airs. Yay.

所以提前给你打个预防针。

So to make you in advance.

我要问你们三位，一般来说，什么样的游戏才算好游戏？

I'm gonna ask all three of you, generally speaking, what makes a good game?

我喜欢那种感觉，我会试着站在解谜者的角度思考。可以说，这就是我们在编辑游戏时大部分工作的核心。我的黄金法则是，在整个创作过程中都要时刻想着解谜者。所以对我来说，特别是谜题，甚至与游戏形成对比的是，你真正想要的是获得某种成就感。哪怕只是每天玩Wordle保持连胜记录，或是完成迷你填字游戏，又或是早早破解一个难度很高的填字游戏主题。

I like a feeling I try and put myself in the shoes of the solver. That's like, I'd say, really just a lot of what we do in editing our games. Like, my golden rule is is you keep the solver in mind throughout your entire process. So one of the things for me, like, especially puzzles, maybe even juxtaposed with games is is you really just wanna feel a sense of accomplishment somehow. Even if that is just your daily jolt from your Wordle every day and keeping up your streak or your mini crossword or, you know, cracking the code on a tough crossword theme early.

我认为好谜题的关键在于能让人感受到成就感。不为别的，就为那一剂多巴胺，告诉自己：我做到了。

I think what makes a good puzzle is is is being able to feel a sense of achievement. You get for nothing else, you get that dose of dopamine that says, I did it.

乔尔？

Joel?

我觉得'出人意料'这个词很贴切。没有什么比陈腐的谜题更糟糕的了。这就是为什么我不喜欢数独——因为我知道解数独会得到什么。但我每天打开Connections游戏时都充满期待。

So I think unpredictable is a word that comes to mind. Like, there's nothing worse than a stale puzzle. That's to me I I I'm not a Sudoku person because of that. I kinda know what I'm gonna get with a Sudoku. But I love when I open up connections each day.

就像，温娜想出了什么点子？比如，事情会怎样发展？你不可能说服我去玩数独。这根本不可能。我会说这是一种玩乐的态度。

It's like, what did Winna come up with? Like, what's the way it be? You're not gonna convince me to get into Sudoku. This is just not gonna happen. I would say playful.

所以，我们游戏的一个标志性特点就是它们是由人类创造的。对吧？你能感受到另一端另一个人类思维的闪光点。任何自动生成的东西，你都能感觉到区别。因此我觉得这是我们努力保持的特质。

So, like, one thing that's a hallmark of our games is that they're human created. Right? There's you can feel the spark of another human mind on the other end. Like, anything auto generated, just you just feel it. And so I feel like that's something we try to have.

解谜时你能感受到谜题中那种 playful 的精神。最后一点是可解性。没有什么比打开一个谜题却因为难度过高或其他原因完全无法下手更糟的了。归根结底，尽管表面看起来如何，我们真心希望人们能解开我们的谜题。

It's just like a playful spirit to the puzzles that you can feel while you're solving them. And then the last thing is just like solvable. Like, there's nothing worse than opening a puzzle and just not being able to do it either because the puzzle was made too hard or or whatever it is. At the end of the day, we want people to solve our puzzles despite what it might come across. We really do.

所以，是的，可解性对我来说是最后也是最重要的一点。

And so, yeah, solvable is is is the last one for me.

温娜？是的。我想呼应很多这些观点。那种幽默感——当事情有趣时感觉很好。我们都是人，解谜者也是人，我们某种程度上是在互相交流。

Winna? Yeah. I I'd like to echo a lot of those points. I think that sense of humor, I just it's nice when things are funny. I think that, just the fact that, you know, we're all people and the solvers are people and, you know, we're sort of communicating in some way, like, to each other.

而且确实要有趣味性。毕竟这是个游戏，应该既好玩又可解。这一点我非常认同。

And, yeah, it's playful. Like, it's it's a game. It should be fun and solvable. I do think that that is yeah. It's true.

相信

Believe in

不可能。可解的。

impossible. Solvable.

没错。没错。我们确实希望它们是可以解决的。

Right. Right. We do want them to be solvable.

好的，温娜、乔尔、萨姆，非常感谢你们加入我，一起讨论《纽约时报》的游戏。

Well, Winna, Joel, Sam, thank you guys so much for joining me to talk about New York Times games.

谢谢。

Thank you.

这是

It's a

美好的一天。绝对的荣幸。非常感谢。

great day. An absolute pleasure. Thank you so much.

今天的节目由安娜·弗利制作，布伦丹·克林肯伯格编辑。音乐由丹·鲍威尔、黛安·王和玛丽安·洛萨诺创作。本期节目由凯蒂·麦柯伦负责技术制作。我是瑞秋·艾布拉姆斯。下次见。

Today's episode was produced by Anna Foley and edited by Brendan Klinkenberg. Contains music by Dan Powell, Diane Wong, and Marian Lozano. This episode was engineered by Katie McCurran. I'm Rachel Abrams. See you next time.